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I'm joined by a veteran, a goat possibly of the podcast industry.

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It's Todd Cochran.

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Todd, hello.

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How are you?

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I'm doing great.

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Thanks Sam for having me.

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Now, Todd, I read in Pod News Daily that you've been doing podcasting for 19 years.

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Well, that's a hell of a time to be doing podcasting.

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It's been a fun ride.

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October 9th, 2004, I pulled up a chair to a little desk in a hotel room in

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Waco, Texas and with a 1495 microphone from Walmart across the street, I

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recorded the first episode and I introduced it with ACDC Back in Black,

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which you can't do that.

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So episode one and two actually went beyond the nether somewhere because I

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took them down.

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I was afraid I was going to get hit with a copyright violation later on.

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But yeah, that was the thing.

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You know, it was caught the fever early on.

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What a great track to start with.

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Those about the podcast, we salute you.

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That's right.

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So looking back over the 19 years, I mean, I know you said it's a 1499 mic and

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it's a, you know, it's a laptop and the internet, but fundamentally has anything

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really changed or is it just the same?

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Ah, yeah, fundamentally it's changed a lot, you know, because you really had to

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be a geek in those early days.

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And I was running on a content management system called movable type.

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Remember it well.

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It didn't switch to, yeah, didn't switch to WordPress until later.

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But we really were trying to figure it all out.

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The biggest challenge really in those early days was hosting because we all had

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to do our own thing.

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And by the time or before the first hosting platform came on the market, which

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was Libsyn or the first one, I was shuffling between like nine or 10 shared

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hosting accounts.

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I would move the show like every three days because I'd run out of 500 gigs of

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bandwidth, run out of 500 gigs bandwidth, run out.

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But what you don't need to think about it, those file sizes at the time were

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small because we were only encoding maybe 32 K at the tops in those early days.

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But, you know, things changed pretty rapidly, you know, 2005 Apple introduced

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podcast iTunes, and then we're off to the races really.

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So from that perspective, no, things haven't changed that much, but, you know,

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definitely being early was a, it helped, you know, from a sense, but also I did a

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tech show as my Genesis show and still do.

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Um, there was a lot of tech shows.

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So it wasn't like, you know, there was, yeah, the genre of shows was narrow tech

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comedy and a few others, but so there was a plethora of tech shows at the, in those

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early start dates.

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What was your expectation of doing it?

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I mean, what, what did you think you were going to get from it?

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Hey, I've got a mic.

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I'm going to be the next, you know, Howard, you know, what, what was it?

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I didn't even know who Howard Stern was then.

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It really started years before that.

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I did a dial-up bulletin board.

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I'd had that for many, many years.

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And then when the modern internet came, it rained out of it, clean a closet

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versus being dial-up.

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And then when that kind of phase of the world changed, I had a blog and I was

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literally a pretty bad blogger.

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Even to this day, I pay people to write on my website versus, and it's much easier.

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So it's okay.

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Well, you know, that's true too, to an extent, but I think the ultimately was,

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I like to talk and I like to talk about tech.

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So for me, it was just, and I had no idea.

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I mean, I thought it would be a fun thing to do.

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And, and you know, my first really indication that this might be reaching

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some people was when I woke up one morning and had an email from my hosting

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provider said, Hey, we've shut your account down because you know, you're

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out of data.

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I'm like, what?

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You know, and, and, you know, it's like, what do I do now?

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Well, let me go over and buy another GoDaddy account or let me buy another

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Dreamhost account or whatever it was.

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I was trying to, cause I had to spread the love around, right.

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Then associated domains to go with it.

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I mean, it was crazy what we had to do in those early days, but, um, then it

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really, you know, there was this, this idea that things could, could take off.

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And when I went back to Hawaii and told my wife about the show, you know, she

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just basically kind of looked at me and she didn't have a clue what I was doing.

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But don't say anything.

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It's going into the corner to talk to himself again, leave him alone.

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And she said, and she said, how much money?

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And I kind of sheepishly said how much might, you know, cause I think we're

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up to six or seven, you know, shared hosting accounts by that point.

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And she kind of eyes got big and she, you know, pointed her finger at me.

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She says, you got two years to figure this out.

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How to make money.

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So I was forced into monetization from like episode six, you know, and found

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monetization about 10 months later, but, and was lucky enough to be one of

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the first to find that, but, you know, just a series of things happened.

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The book deal with Wiley, you know, then forming a network and then go

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daddy coming to me and then go daddy saying, Hey, and really what the

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Genesis of blueberry podcasting or raw voices, the parent company blueberry

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was from a gal named Chris Ruddinger.

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She said, Todd, do you know anyone else would like to do advertising with go

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daddy? And I was like, huh?

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Yeah, there's a business here.

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So I literally on my podcast, I said, you need a lawyer.

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I need an MBA.

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I need a graphics guy and you need a programmer.

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Cause I was none of the above and a phone call on free conference call about

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10 days later and, and three of the original five are still with the company.

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I formed it over the phone.

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We didn't meet each other for six months.

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So raw voices literally launch from my, from my audience.

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Wow.

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And go daddy still your sponsor, aren't they?

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Still today.

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Yeah.

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1698 episodes in and you know, there's, there's breaks, spent an hour on how

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that's possible by itself, but the, really the simple part of it is you

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gotta have new butts come in the seat or no new ears coming into the show.

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In order to maintain that success.

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Cause I get my performance is purely based on new customer.

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Give everyone who doesn't know what are the shows that you do.

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So I do geek new central to tech show twice, like we Monday and Thursday.

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I record that in the evening on Wednesdays.

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I do the new media show and who made sure.com with Rob Greenlee.

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Him and I've been doing that more than 10 years in itself.

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And then I, there's three of us that, uh, really, really, really, really

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there's three of us that, uh, round Robin on the podcast insider at blueberry.

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So, um, usually around a couple of episodes a month of the company

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podcasts, but all told, I think I told it up here recently, more than

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2300 episodes and plus 2000 plus interviews, some that I have received

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and some that I have given, you know, so, cause the, well, the majority of

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those interviews were done like the consumer electronic show, CES show.

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It's part of adding content to the, to the tech stack for the, for the geek show.

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Now you've got blueberry and you've got multiple products, you know, got

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WordPress products, you've got other products we're going to talk about shortly.

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Is the podcast a loss leader to making people aware of blueberry or is it

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fundamentally its own separate entity?

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Where does the podcast sit within the business?

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Yeah, the two shows that I do for geek new central and the new media show are

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not, you know, really designed to drive.

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It's not a funnel for, for raw voice or blueberry or blueberry specifically.

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Um, but why I do a podcast and I was talking in our Facebook group about it

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yesterday was if there's very few podcast hosting owners, founders,

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team members that actually do podcasts.

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So on my team, I have a lot of team members that do podcasts, burying my CFO

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and legal officer, you know, he does a travel show.

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Um, one of the guys that's on our board of directors does a indie music show.

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And so it's, it's really my philosophy was, and has been, if I'm going to talk

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about monetization, I'm going to talk about growing, you know, the, the, the

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talk about growing a show.

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I'm going to talk about consistency.

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If I'm going to talk about all these things are important podcasting, you

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better be doing it, your own dog food, as they say, that's right.

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You better be doing it.

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And if, and if you're not, and you're talking hypothetically, be quiet.

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You don't know what you're talking about.

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I agree.

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Now, one of the things that you have with both geek new central and the new media

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show is you've now started to adopt some of these new podcasts, two to O features.

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And one of those is lit the live item.

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Yep.

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Have you found it?

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I mean, has it been challenging?

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Has it been, oh, yeah.

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Okay.

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Now we've just got through a few of the, uh, you know, glitches.

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It's pretty smooth.

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Where are you with it now?

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You know, having done live literally for more than 10 years for both geek new

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central and the new media show.

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And, you know, for us, it was just an extra step to click a button and say,

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Hey, we're live and then notify the podcast 2.0 apps at podcast apps.com

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that are capable of showing the live audio or video.

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And we're both up live on audio.

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We're both up on live and video with those apps.

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And for me, it's been, it's exciting because, you know, I've always been an

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individual that said, I want to control my own destiny.

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I want to build my own brand.

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I want to build my own.com.

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I want, I don't want to rely on YouTube or Facebook live or any of these other

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places to build an audience and to keep the audience, you know, basically engage.

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I I'm never going to get deep platform, but at the same time, I would much rather

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have the audience, if they decide they want to consume live, consume it in an

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app where they're having conversations.

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Same place they're having conversations in or podcast or, you know, regular

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consumption of podcasts.

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So I'd rather have them to have it there than have it on YouTube or have it on

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Facebook. Now, granted, the audience is definitely split on where they largely

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watch now.

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They watch those three places.

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They watch on YouTube live, they watch on Facebook live, and they watch within

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the podcast apps and, you know, pushing folks to those other apps over time.

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It's just, you know, it's just an education thing.

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So I think it's fantastic.

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It's in really it does give an a person the ability to not be reliant on a

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logarithm.

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And that's what you are when you're chasing YouTube numbers or you're chasing

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Facebook. It's it's it's the logo that you're battling against.

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Why do that?

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Why just continue build your brand on your dot com and and and use these

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features to build a native audience.

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It's all about education on the content creator standpoint, too.

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So if you've started one place and you try to shift people to the other, it's

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going to take some work.

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But I think the live inlet is fantastic.

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And again, there is some uptake and, you know, we're we're working to make it

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easier for podcasters in all regards.

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I mean, it is we are in the super, super early days of all of this technology.

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You know, as Adam and Dave like to call it running the system, it's a very

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interesting thing to do, because I think we are literally sticky tape and

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plaster in some cases trying to do this.

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But what what is interesting is you as a blueberry as a company have embraced

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all of this technology.

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I saw a stat about the number of sats that have been paid out to your creators

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now. Can you remind me what that was?

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And what are you seeing in terms of, you know, from the support of YouTube

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and, you know, from the support calls and sort of feedback generally on how

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this is being adopted?

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Well, it's to me, has blown away because we do a three percent fee.

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So I basically went in and looked at our Satoshi account.

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And for those that don't know, Valu for Value is one of the methods is

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time, talent or treasure.

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Treasure could be fiat funds or could be Satoshi's via booster, you know,

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streaming by the minute crypto.

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And I went in our Albie account or blueberry Albie account and I was like,

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whoa, I looked at the number.

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That's kind of surprise.

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So I just did a quick math thing, right?

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He just, you know, I did the inverse and said, how, you know, what did the other

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97 percent, you know, how much of that other 97 percent amount to actually 100

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percent because the fees on top and just a little over 10 grand and in real

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dollars.

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And well, you know, I guess I have to go back and look at when we enabled value

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for value for five months, maybe.

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So not a huge amount, but I was actually actually kind of surprised.

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And so, I mean, something new I'm doing now is like, OK, you know, where are

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those stats going, you know, going back and through and looking at stuff that are

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coming from and a lot of it streaming stats, people that are streaming, you

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know, 100 stats a minute or a thousand stats a minute or they're doing boost

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and, you know, a hundred thousand Satoshi boost.

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And it's it was it's interesting to see that now again, it was just again over a

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number of months.

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And so I was really pretty surprised and I hadn't been in there and looked for

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for two because the first time I looked, I said something like I think the first

240
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time I looked at it was like maybe they were like eight hundred dollars or

241
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something like that or nine hundred or something.

242
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And then, you know, months later, I go back in and I'm like, wow.

243
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And I think there was a second part of your question, maybe I missed.

244
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What is the support like?

245
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So, oh, the support.

246
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I mean, are people coming to you?

247
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,080
I don't understand what you're talking about, Todd.

248
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,640
Or is it like, oh, this is really cool.

249
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I get it. It's pretty quick.

250
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,160
And, you know, some of the questions you're getting are now more advanced

251
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questions. I don't know.

252
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Where is the feedback?

253
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:37,440
Well, so far we did we did YouTube shorts, not shorts, but as short of YouTube

254
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videos as we could on explaining every single feature.

255
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,800
And this is the thing we've had to really do is educate the podcaster that this is

256
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a feature. We get all the geek tech.

257
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We don't want to get their eyes glazed over and try to break this down at the

258
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most simple level and said, listen, I got to do is go in here.

259
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You enable this.

260
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You set up you either use your fountain account, your get out your Albie, get Albie

261
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,520
account, or you can use your own note if you're so inclined.

262
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We don't recommend that.

263
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And we'll automatically link it up, fill the boxes, you set up the splits and the

264
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support on it has been virtually nil.

265
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:21,680
Wow. OK.

266
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:28,720
Now, I reason I reason the reason I think it is at this point is we've we've got a

267
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lot of businesses come in from other companies that have.

268
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So it's a lot of people that want to be involved.

269
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They've done a little bit of self, you know, self study.

270
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They know what the features are and they've come in and adopted.

271
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So I think that from that perspective, we're probably dealing with the three

272
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percent that didn't need an explanation on how to use this, that has adopted it.

273
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:59,600
Now, to get the other 97 percent of the base to understand the value and what this

274
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can mean again, and we're probably on a two year climb here to to really educate

275
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,920
and and talk about these new these new features.

276
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:18,520
And I want to talk about them as features because the otherwise the non nerds that

277
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are going to try to adopt this are going to their eyes are going to glaze over and

278
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say, forget it. And it's not worth my time.

279
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And also, you got to understand, too, people are always shaming.

280
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Sometimes they're chasing the shiny little object.

281
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,800
So YouTube is kind of doing their thing now and everyone's, oh, we get all excited

282
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,000
about YouTube and that'll die down and people will.

283
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,520
And again, it's about trying to get people educated on why they should use these

284
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,400
features and why we want wider adoption across apps to be able to support it so

285
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that we have more control of our listeners so that, you know, I don't believe

286
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,280
and not in a single instance that YouTube is a friend of podcasting.

287
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They see this as an opportunity.

288
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They see this as an opportunity to keep people in their platform and not let them

289
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leave. And I think content creators that are worried about their brands need to

290
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understand this in a big way.

291
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,400
Now, maybe they can build a big audience over there and monetize.

292
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,560
Great. If they can, congratulations.

293
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,720
But the majority will never monetize.

294
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,920
And do you want YouTube in control of your audience?

295
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:26,120
So, again, let's stay on the pure podcasting side for a little bit.

296
00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:31,680
I think there's huge opportunity here with these new features to really do cool

297
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:32,360
things with the audience.

298
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,880
You were the first one who called them features, if I remember rightly.

299
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,960
And, you know, everyone had been calling them tags or namespace extensions.

300
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,760
I think it was you in one of your shows that said, well, let's just call them

301
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,640
features. And I thought, good on you, Todd.

302
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,720
That just makes it really customer friendly.

303
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:55,840
Now, with your adoption of all of these new features, do you think you've created

304
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,600
a competitive advantage?

305
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,880
Do you see other people leaving other hosts?

306
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,800
I mean, I don't know if your data tells you that, but do you see that?

307
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,520
Well, you know, let's be honest, we're not the only ones that have done some

308
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:10,720
significant adoption.

309
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:18,960
RSS.com, Buzzsprout, RSS Blue and a few others have done significant adoption of

310
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podcasting 2.0 tags.

311
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,400
So I'm not getting customers from there.

312
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,160
They're not they're not moving from there, but they are moving from other hosts

313
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:33,280
that have been slow on the uptake and slow on the adoption and people that are

314
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,040
impatient and have been asking.

315
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,160
Those are types of folks.

316
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,480
And I'm sure those other companies are gaining customers, too.

317
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,720
And I know specifically ones usually that are coming because they tell me they're

318
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,480
coming. And, you know, we've got some of their waiting for us to do some additional

319
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,040
stuff before they move.

320
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:57,760
So I think that now the majority of the gain in business has been really from

321
00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,120
hosts that haven't adopted.

322
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:03,120
And we've talked to those hosts and said, hey, how come you're not playing here?

323
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,760
But I guess at this point, it's their loss or gain.

324
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,920
It's not hundreds, you know, but if I can move, you know, twenty, twenty five a

325
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,560
month off another service, you know, those those are those are great adopt because

326
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,080
people don't move when they get out of hosting service.

327
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,120
They rarely move.

328
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:21,600
The percentages are very, very low.

329
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:27,920
Now, a feature or a function of Blueberry was a new thing you launched called

330
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,280
Podcast Mirror. Tell me more about Podcast Mirror.

331
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,480
Yeah, Podcast Mirror has actually been a service we've had for maybe.

332
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:43,760
2016, 17, we launched Podcast Mirror, and really what Podcast Mirror was was

333
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,080
number one, it was a feed burner replacement, this feed burner wasn't

334
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,360
staying current. It was also designed for people that were on a dollar ninety

335
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:56,800
nine hosting account that, you know, basically, you know, got grew a little

336
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,080
bit and got overwhelmed.

337
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:05,400
So what we do is the podcast does exactly as it says it mirrors the feed that you

338
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,440
create on whatever service, whether it be a competitor, whether it be on your own

339
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:16,400
website, whether it be or on SoundCloud, wherever it may be, it copies that mirror

340
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,600
and makes an exact mirror of it and then through some little things that we do to

341
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,840
help people. Basically, that becomes the point that Apple podcasts and Spotify

342
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:32,320
and everyone else, they pull from that URL and it basically designed that

343
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,480
service to be a rocket ship and to basically really like load quickly.

344
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:44,560
There's a lot of high volume podcasts that are using Podcast Mirror for years

345
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,400
and we made it available for free.

346
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,000
Well, like anything else, you know, we started looking at the cost of what this

347
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,760
was costing us every month.

348
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,760
And it's free for our well, it's it's been, again, a free for everyone, but we

349
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:05,320
made a change just a couple of weeks ago, put a sixty dollar a year annual fee on

350
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,040
it, and then we added a number of podcasting two point no features.

351
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:15,240
So what's kind of cool about this is you may not want to move to Blueberry.

352
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,000
You may want to stay at that non participating podcast, two point no host.

353
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:21,800
But guess what?

354
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,400
We made it now so that you can do live, you can do value for value, you can set

355
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,360
the medium tag to the type of content it is.

356
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,440
So if someone's on SoundCloud and has a music show and they want to participate in

357
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,200
this new thing that's going on with music, they can do that or they can set the

358
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:39,400
medium to podcast.

359
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,200
There's the funding tag credits.

360
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:42,560
We even support O.P.

361
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:42,840
Three.

362
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,480
So it really is.

363
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,480
And it's all channel level.

364
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,600
And again, now we're getting technical.

365
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,320
It's all channel level.

366
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,480
Yeah, it's all channel level features, top level features, because I really to

367
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,800
implement something in an episode level would require a monumental amount of work.

368
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:05,120
Because again, all we're doing is we're taking the feed that was originally

369
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:05,760
created.

370
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:12,000
We're making a copy of it, hosting it on podcast mirror with an address at podcast

371
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,400
mirror that loads lightning fast, takes a load off your Web server.

372
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,080
If you're again, you're on a dollar ninety nine or maybe you're over at some place

373
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,560
that charges you for too much traffic, which happens a lot as well.

374
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,240
Now that we can now we just inject at the channel level those podcasting two point

375
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:36,600
two point features and and what it really does is it makes a show immediately able

376
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:42,480
to participate in this new medium again with a limited number of features live

377
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,720
value for value medium funding credits and O.P.

378
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,120
Three.

379
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,080
And of course, good if they don't have a good we'll put a good in there does pod

380
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,400
ping and does all those things that you would expect from from a host that was

381
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,000
engaging and operating.

382
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,600
So we've started to see some trickle from some people who weren't suspecting that

383
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:04,600
would come over and use it.

384
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,280
So it's kind of fun to see that too.

385
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,760
Would that user eventually go, I don't want to use podcast mirror.

386
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,360
I'm actually just going to come across.

387
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,440
Is that is that your bridging technology, do you think?

388
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,800
They can't bridge because we don't host the media.

389
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:18,520
It's still hosted.

390
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:19,240
It's your host.

391
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,480
No, but eventually they say that I don't want to use podcast mirror.

392
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,560
I don't want to stay at X host.

393
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,240
I'm going to start and move my whole hosting to Blubrink.

394
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,400
Is that why?

395
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,000
Well, that would that could in and they could actually keep the podcast mirror

396
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,920
feed that they had in transition.

397
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:36,400
Got you.

398
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:37,360
Yeah.

399
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,480
And again, the feeds that are served by Blubrink.com are running the same exact

400
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:43,160
technology.

401
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,120
Matter of fact, it has the item level stuff support too.

402
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:48,120
So you probably wouldn't want to use.

403
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,520
Matter of fact, we tell our Blubrink customers, you know, I think we've only got

404
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,720
like five Blubrink customers that are actually using podcast mirror.

405
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:56,680
They don't need it.

406
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,280
But they just happen to use it because they, they, if they decide someday, they

407
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,600
want to leave blueberry, they could just go to another competitor and then change

408
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,240
the source URL and podcast mirror would pick that up.

409
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:07,520
Right.

410
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,320
So, so that, you know, can work the other way, you know, they can move away from us

411
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:12,600
as well.

412
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:20,000
So, so, so looking further down the field, I mean, you and I both very heavily

413
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,840
involved in talking about some of the new features.

414
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,040
We weren't going to any of those particularly, but one of the things that

415
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:31,760
as a host, I've always wanted, and somebody who does a lot of live and a lot of

416
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:40,240
video would blueberry provide a client end service where I could come to blueberry

417
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,040
and create a live server, an HLS server and pay you extra money on top of my

418
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:45,880
blueberry account.

419
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,280
Is that any in the planning around that?

420
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,120
Maybe it's on my list, but I don't have it in the stack yet.

421
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:55,920
And the other one, yeah.

422
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:56,760
So, okay, cool.

423
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,040
I mean, cause that would be, it just seems like it's such a natural fit for a host

424
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,760
just to add that extra live, uh, URL service.

425
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:11,200
Now, if some, if someone wants to do audio streaming, I've got a couple of audio

426
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,440
streamers set up with time slots available.

427
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,040
If they come over and they're a blueberry host, they say, Hey, I need an audio

428
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,440
stream it from Thursday night from a Thursday morning from nine to 11.

429
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,080
And if I have the slot, I'll give them the slot and they can use the stream

430
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,280
server for audio right now.

431
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,320
But I'm just giving slots on something that we pay for.

432
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:31,240
We don't have, that's not something we built.

433
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,600
It's, you know, it's just a service.

434
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,800
It's a good testing ground for you to see what the usage might be in anything else.

435
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,920
Now you do video, you do a lot of video.

436
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:45,040
And, um, again, you know, you've talked about your thoughts around YouTube, which,

437
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,560
you know, don't worry, they mirror mine in many ways, but, but you've given me

438
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:49,560
your thoughts around that.

439
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:56,400
But as blueberry, would you ever provide, um, the alternate enclosure ability for

440
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,160
me as a client of blueberry to host video?

441
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,520
I've spoken to a few other hosts and that seems to be like, Oh my God, that's

442
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,680
no, no, no, no, no.

443
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,600
That's well, we've always, we've hosted video from day one.

444
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:12,480
Yeah.

445
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,520
So our, our approach though is, is a little bit different in the way that

446
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,720
a little bit different, and this is really ground in, you know, going way back.

447
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,080
The argument was made many, many years ago for one feed, one show.

448
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,960
So in other words, there's a feed for the audio.

449
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,080
There's a feed for the video.

450
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:39,760
The challenge I have is basically I have a hundred thousand plus shows that

451
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:45,440
easy to use power press or use blueberry directly or are hosted WordPress site.

452
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,160
And some of them don't even host with us using power press.

453
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,680
And all this time we've made it ability for them to have an audio feed, video

454
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,760
feed, or whatever, how many ever feeds they want where they can create as many

455
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,480
as they want to create per single show.

456
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:04,400
But we've never crossed streams within the same episode.

457
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,800
So, you know, I know James and some other folks are not happy that we haven't

458
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,920
adopted alternate enclosures.

459
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:16,880
There is a potential that we've been thinking about for a while that we're

460
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,640
going to make some suggestions to podcasting 2.0 that why not, why not

461
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:28,000
just let us point to another feed and get this remote item?

462
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,680
Why can't there be a remote item for the video component of a podcast that

463
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:33,760
would fix our issue?

464
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,920
Because if I go into a, if I tell a podcaster today, all right, I'm going to

465
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,440
ask her today, all right, we're enabling alternate enclosures.

466
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,080
So if you've got a video feed in an audio feed right now, if you have an audio

467
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,600
feed, now you're going to have to put an alternate closure of your video.

468
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,800
And if you have a video feed, now you're going to have to switch that and put an

469
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,120
alternate enclosure to an audio file.

470
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,280
It just gets really messy for our standpoint.

471
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,840
So we just think it might be just easier to allow remote item point to another

472
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,000
version of the show instead of having an alternate enclosure.

473
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,840
Like podcast mirror where you're not hosting the content, but you're providing

474
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,880
the, the wraparound metadata.

475
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,880
Could you not with the alternate enclosure have the URL of the video

476
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,720
point to the Vimeo or YouTube or somewhere else?

477
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,360
So you're not actually hosting it.

478
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,480
You're actually just providing a box, which the link to it.

479
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:29,520
It's a box, right?

480
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,840
It's just a, just as you don't have when you have the funding tag, right.

481
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,000
In your RSS and you have a domain.

482
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,440
It's a URL to buy me a coffee or a URL to get you're not actually hosting the

483
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,040
funding part, you know, no, no, no.

484
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,760
But I think the challenge that is, is in post that's okay.

485
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,600
When you are creating an episode, you definitely could link to that live that

486
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,840
you created somewhere, the link to it.

487
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,160
And I, I think, you know, we've always suggested that anyway, if people that

488
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,040
don't want to actually host video, they just want to have an embed to put it in

489
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,240
their show notes, so there could be in the feed, but I think we'd have to figure

490
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,160
out where that belongs.

491
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,320
Um, I mean, again, maybe that's another remote item idea.

492
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:23,040
So I think there's, there's opportunity there because not everyone is, you know,

493
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,720
some people are going to want to be on, you know, maybe they're on, uh, what's

494
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,720
the gaming site, uh, it doesn't matter.

495
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,160
Wherever they're at Twitch, maybe they want to point towards a Twitter.

496
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,240
Stream that they've done, you know?

497
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:42,600
So I think that's all, that's all viable type of ideas that should probably be

498
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,480
considered, um, cause that way you don't need the alternate close because the

499
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,120
alternate enclosure really demands a physical link to a media file.

500
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:57,640
You know, again, that goes back to, you know, the, the serving of that media in

501
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,040
the app, because most podcasts apps.

502
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,520
I don't know if it'd be a terms of services violation for them to try to

503
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:09,040
pull in that embed from Vimeo or from Twitch and play it within the app.

504
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,320
I think there would be challenges there.

505
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,640
So I just wish that more of the apps would support video too.

506
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,840
I would, yeah, I think that's important at this point that every app that's in

507
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:24,080
the podcasting 2.0 new or podcast apps.com support, uh, video playback.

508
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,320
Yeah, I agree.

509
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,040
And then putting my app hat on, you'll be pleased to know in a couple of weeks

510
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,280
time that will be available from, from pop fans.

511
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,240
I can't talk for anyone else.

512
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,640
Cause it's really all it is is we're just serving you an MP4 usually, you

513
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,560
know, it's usually you just, you know, you just doing the playback and

514
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:42,600
you're pulling from us.

515
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:43,640
Yeah.

516
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:44,320
So,

517
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,960
yeah, um, absolutely.

518
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:53,360
And, uh, we have tested your show and it works, um, with the separate

519
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:59,120
video feed, I think it was just trying to find a, I suppose a cleaner solution

520
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,360
that said, you know, click a button, it switches to video click a button

521
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,160
and it goes back to audio.

522
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:03,880
That was what

523
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,160
here's, here's what we've learned is here's what I've learned.

524
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,040
70% of my audience on my tech show.

525
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,920
Listen, 30% watch on Robin eyes, new media show.

526
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,680
It's like an 80 20 split 80% listen, 20% watch.

527
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:26,520
Um, I think most listeners, I want to have them the cleanest solution possible.

528
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,280
I want them to say, I love this audio show click, follower subscribe.

529
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:31,640
Bam.

530
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:32,520
That's what I get.

531
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,880
There's no monkeying around.

532
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:34,960
I know what I'm going to have.

533
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,960
So I try to, and I look at this and try to play devil's advocate.

534
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,960
At the same time, I understand where you want one listing that

535
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,600
clicks between audio and videos.

536
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,800
But maybe streaming.

537
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:46,080
Yeah.

538
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,000
If I make any difference, right?

539
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:50,520
Same value.

540
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:51,520
Right.

541
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,880
But again, I have two feeds with value for value set up in both.

542
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,560
So it doesn't matter which one you hit, but maybe that remote item type

543
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:05,720
of linking to a video feed might be an interesting option.

544
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:06,520
I like that idea.

545
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,200
It's a, it's a strong possibility.

546
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,520
I think that, okay, look, we started off the show saying you've been here.

547
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,720
Looking back 19 years in some ways, things have changed.

548
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,960
We just talked about those changes, the podcast two.

549
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,720
Oh, and in fact, that's probably over the last three or five years.

550
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:21,960
Right.

551
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,040
At the moment.

552
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,880
So there was a, you know, a long hiatus where things just moved along.

553
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:28,720
We didn't really change.

554
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:29,720
Okay.

555
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Put your hat on Todd and tell me what's five years from now.

556
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,200
What's 19 years from now.

557
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,280
Whoo.

558
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,320
Uh, I'll give you a 12.

559
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:39,880
Okay.

560
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:40,600
I'll take that.

561
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:48,640
Um, because, um, the AI will be part of every podcast hosting platforms offering.

562
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,880
Everyone's going to have something.

563
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,200
Um, if they don't, they're, you know, they're not going to be in

564
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,440
business three years from now.

565
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:04,480
Um, I think that, um, I'm not talking about an AI voice creating content that, uh,

566
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,240
no, but here's what will happen.

567
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,960
As all this proliferation of AI content, written videos, all this stuff, people

568
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,840
are not going to know who to trust or what to trust.

569
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,280
So people that are doing original content, I'll include YouTubers as well.

570
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,840
People are doing original content, audio podcasts, video podcasts, YouTube

571
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,040
channels, where there is a voice that you can trust, they are going to

572
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,880
flock to those voices.

573
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,840
And personalities, because you're not going to know what you're reading.

574
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,320
If it's true or not, if it's bias through you, if it's how it's been written, where

575
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:51,600
AI is going to help podcasters is folks that are a hit a writer's block, or maybe

576
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,800
they're having a hard time coming with questions for a host, or maybe they've

577
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,360
been horrible at writing summaries of their episodes, but they're going to

578
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:06,240
be horrible at writing summaries of their episodes that thunking work.

579
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,800
And I stole that word from Google, by the way, that thunking work is what AI is

580
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:11,480
going to do.

581
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,480
It's going to help.

582
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:13,480
It's going to assist.

583
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:14,960
It won't be the authority.

584
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,960
Here's, here's what's going to end up happening here.

585
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,240
We're very creative.

586
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:19,320
We're all creators.

587
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,200
I consider myself prayed, but I can't draw.

588
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,960
If I asked to draw something, I draw stick.

589
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,160
You and me, but journey, I'm in that a lot of time.

590
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:28,320
Okay.

591
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,720
I can, I can visualize what I want.

592
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:31,160
Right.

593
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,720
And I, and I know the kind of things I want to bring out in my shows.

594
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,000
So being a creator, you're not going to give anything up, but the assistance is

595
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:46,120
going to come with that thunking is show notes, maybe questions, creative ideas.

596
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,560
That's thunking work is going to be helped by AI.

597
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:55,000
And then the, you still have to be the subject matter expert of everything

598
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,440
because you're going to do your content, you're going to be the SME, the subject

599
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,040
matter expert of your content.

600
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,720
And then you're going to have to make sure that you're the subject matter

601
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:05,560
expert of whatever that AI puts out.

602
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:06,800
So this was the summary.

603
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:10,760
You know, Todd talked about this, this, and this, and this.

604
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,400
You said, Oh no, I didn't talk about that.

605
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,080
It made it up.

606
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:21,280
Let me delete that from the draft and correct that you do the QA on the output.

607
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,800
And when you hit publish, it's still your product because you've had to edit this

608
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,240
because these AIs are, you know, they're the dumbest they'll ever be right now.

609
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:28,560
Exactly.

610
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:29,840
But I think it's good.

611
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,720
And I think it's going to help the creative types in some of this stuff, but

612
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,600
in the playing field is going to be equaled because everyone's going to be

613
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:37,360
doing the same thing.

614
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,080
Everyone's going to have comprehensive notes.

615
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:40,840
But what does that do then?

616
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,280
And this is why it's going to change the podcasting space a lot.

617
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,080
You don't write for your audience.

618
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,920
You write for Google.

619
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,160
And now you're going to be writing for language models.

620
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:01,560
So the more in the more in depth your show notes are when a language model

621
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,360
comes by and indexes your page.

622
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,400
So Todd talked about podcasting 2.0.

623
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:10,960
Sam talked about podcasting 2.0 or whatever it may be.

624
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,040
Then as these things evolve, then as search changes, tell me about podcasting

625
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,800
2.0 and there's like, well, here's Sam and Todd talking about this.

626
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,280
Here's Adam. Here's Dave.

627
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:24,040
Here's the authorities.

628
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,960
And this is not going to happen right now because it's pretty dumb right now.

629
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,920
It's built on data that doesn't shift very much between models.

630
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:33,640
But over time it will.

631
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,840
So the one to three years, the world is going to change completely for

632
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:38,680
knowledge workers.

633
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:45,160
And I think that podcast hosts better be, you know, I mean, probably if

634
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,440
they're not aware of it, then sorry.

635
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,920
Sorry. So I think that's what's going to happen now.

636
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,920
What's going to happen for listeners?

637
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,680
Well, we just want listeners to engage.

638
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,360
We want listeners to be, you know, that's what is the thing that most

639
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,280
podcasters care about the most besides growth?

640
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:09,760
Someone saying I love your show.

641
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:10,720
Interactivity.

642
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:11,760
Someone saying I hate you.

643
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,760
Someone saying that sucked or that was great.

644
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:21,360
Or, you know, my biggest span that I had years ago was a hater because he, he,

645
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,800
he co co-lust my audience.

646
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,120
I would read every one of his hateful comments he sent to the show and the

647
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,600
audience would rally around me and I build a stronger user base just because

648
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,440
of one one Sal, where are you at?

649
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:34,520
Come back to the show, brother.

650
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,600
You know, so self-reporting, put them on the splits.

651
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,120
Exactly.

652
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,560
You know, so I think that, uh, you know, we want this listener engagement.

653
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,880
What does listener engagement do that keeps us motivated to create content?

654
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,320
Cause being a content creator, being a podcaster can be lonely.

655
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:55,800
Yeah.

656
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,840
I remember when doing radio shows, it was also very lonely until he got someone

657
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,560
calling in, Oh, someone is listening.

658
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,680
Um, switching slightly.

659
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,040
We both know this person, uh, Leo Laporte.

660
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,560
Um, he's got a podcast network.

661
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,840
Uh, he is not very clearly not adopting any of the podcasting

662
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,520
two to own namespace stuff.

663
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:19,840
Um, which is the weirdest thing in the world.

664
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,120
Cause if anyone's ever listened to Leo from the beginning, he's always talked

665
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,760
about wanting to have fans pay him directly and I'm going, it's available now.

666
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:33,200
Leo it's available, but he blinkers it, but he's talking about advertising now,

667
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:34,600
you know, diminishing quite rapidly.

668
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,600
They've gone down to one advert per show.

669
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:42,320
Now, um, they got, I think James reporting, they got ad blocked recently.

670
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,320
Um, you know, they got blacklisted, um, and they've been having to get

671
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:46,440
themselves whitelisted again.

672
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,680
Do you, the question really then is, you know, you see, I'm looking at the sort

673
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,880
of slow demise of a very good network that's been going for 10 plus years and

674
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,000
you've been going for 20 years nearly.

675
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:04,320
Do you think advertising within podcasting is going to evolve and grow or

676
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,520
diminish because nobody wants advertising in their podcast.

677
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:08,360
They just want money.

678
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,960
So if we can replace money value with value for value, sorry.

679
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:18,080
So we can place money with micro payments that direct from fans.

680
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,600
You wouldn't want advertising in your show.

681
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,200
So is advertising just the sort of hanging around like a bad smell and then

682
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,920
we're just, we'll see in five years gone.

683
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,200
Well, well, I, you know, I'll be honest, the studio where I'm at right now would

684
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:39,680
not be, I would not be here in this setting where I am physically right now.

685
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:40,800
Had it not been for go dad.

686
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,480
Now I might still be in a bedroom in my house.

687
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:53,480
Um, I think that first of all, I love Leo, love Lisa, love the team over there

688
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,000
at twit, but Leo's thinking about retiring, you know, Leo's close to, to

689
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:06,560
pull on the plug and Leo is the linchpin to twit and you know, I've seen Leo get

690
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:07,760
rid of some people in the past.

691
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,680
I thought there was the legacy to continue on your network, but Leo made

692
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,040
his own business decisions.

693
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:19,280
So Leo for many, many years, didn't call podcast a podcast either, called it a

694
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,000
netcast.

695
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,880
So Leo's been a little slow adopting on some things, but still very successful

696
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:25,600
on his own, right.

697
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,120
But he came from television.

698
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,960
He had the prebuilt audience, had a syndicated radio show.

699
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,760
So Leo's operating at a level that 99% of podcasters don't.

700
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:42,000
So if you build a big audience and I'm a big audience, I'm going to say is

701
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:48,480
above 10,000 listeners, 10,000 plays at download, you can do very well in

702
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,880
monetizing your podcasts through some great host read advertising.

703
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,920
And as the bigger you get, you can adopt, you can gain those advertisers on your

704
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:03,120
own or through a partner where the problem is, in my opinion, is the partners

705
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,680
have now started and employ a whole bunch of tech that is not beneficial to

706
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:10,480
the content creator.

707
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:19,280
We're in this world of everyone has to be can't have their feelings hurt and

708
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:25,520
advertisers are risk adverse to someone saying that something they shouldn't.

709
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:31,520
In the early days of podcasting, there was a guy that was doing a podcast, had

710
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,120
an advertiser and his name is show name was the daily download.

711
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,520
And you can imagine where he recorded his show.

712
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,240
So I wouldn't have known, but visual image.

713
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:42,800
Okay.

714
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,880
He had, he had an advertiser.

715
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:45,200
Right.

716
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:45,680
All right.

717
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,360
Now let's move to where we're at today.

718
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:56,000
I think you can do well if you have an advertiser relationship that is built

719
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:01,280
upon trust and brain providing value and you love the product, you can endorse

720
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,720
that and do very, very well.

721
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,640
The problem I run into now with advertising is I listen to some shows

722
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,320
and there's an ad break every seven minutes.

723
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,080
There's three, two ads, someone droning on about something they really don't

724
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:12,800
believe in.

725
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,840
It's absolute crap.

726
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,160
And get on my soapbox a little bit.

727
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,160
Media buyers are lazy.

728
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,640
They are lazy.

729
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:25,840
They have ignored.

730
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:27,360
Nine.

731
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:27,920
Okay.

732
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,720
Fifty percent of podcasters don't want no advertising to begin with.

733
00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:31,760
So let's just throw that out.

734
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,160
Let's say 10 percent and that's being generous or being monetized today.

735
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,000
That leaves you 40 percent of podcasts that want advertising that that

736
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,200
inventory is empty.

737
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,440
It's setting to be filled because media buyers have been lazy and not bought

738
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:48,640
down into it.

739
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,520
Some of the most engaging and beautiful audiences that are out there.

740
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,280
So I think advertising can work, but you are now living in a world where.

741
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:03,520
You know, you say one word and boom, you're you're you're off the platform.

742
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,120
You've had your ads pulled.

743
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,800
So I think there's a there's a way forward.

744
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,120
I think the way things are going now were automation.

745
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,440
The automation is what they're trying to do is trying to build volume.

746
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,840
And then in case and at this point, the automation is hurting content creators.

747
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,520
So we're value for value comes in.

748
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,840
It's hard for a content creator to say.

749
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,560
Hey, can you provide time, talent or treasure?

750
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,600
I think the talent is easy.

751
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,440
Asking someone to support the show, maybe be a moderator, maybe help with social

752
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,960
talent, being maybe submitting album art or whatever it may be.

753
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,600
Some sort of, you know, maybe ideas for the show episode.

754
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,600
The treasure piece is the hard part.

755
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,720
And you have to ask.

756
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:52,240
And, you know, I don't want a buy me a coffee.

757
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:54,960
That that doesn't work.

758
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,680
That doesn't keep the insurance and lights on in this place.

759
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:06,800
So until people start learning to support with if you provide value and you get

760
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:11,520
monetarily value back, whether it be in dollars or in, you know, in Satoshi's.

761
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:20,640
I think Satoshi's at this point are largely a feedback mechanism.

762
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,920
They're, you know, I've collected a lot of Satoshi's.

763
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:24,640
I can't complain.

764
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:25,600
I've done well.

765
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:31,360
Personally, probably six or seven hundred dollars in donations on Satoshi so far.

766
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,880
But at the same time, my fiat funds that come in via PayPal donation probably equal

767
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,520
just about that much in the same amount of period, too.

768
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,120
So, again, it's a mixed piece.

769
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,080
I think they can coincide with one another.

770
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:51,520
But a lot of these automated systems that 90 percent of podcasters will never have

771
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,520
to deal with are hurting that 10 percent.

772
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,120
But those maybe those podcasters need to stay up, stand up and say, stop.

773
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,080
Yeah, I know.

774
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,600
I guess my question to you is trying to fast forward.

775
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:10,240
What is the crossover time frame in your mind between people who are reliant on

776
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:14,240
advertising as their monetization, which we know is just a bad way of doing it,

777
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:16,400
because there is no payment.

778
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,880
So monetization through advertising was the option.

779
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:25,680
But nobody wants a D.A.I. ad injected into the middle of their conversation.

780
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:26,880
Nobody does. Right.

781
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,680
So. Well, this is planned and prepared.

782
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,280
Yeah. But even then, you probably you're only doing it because you want money.

783
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,520
I mean, how many squares based we want and, you know, my dad.

784
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:47,200
So I guess if you knew going back to, you know, if you looked at the amount of money

785
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,480
if you looked at the amount of if I could go all the way back.

786
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,000
Well, no, if you could go all the way forward, actually more more.

787
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,920
Oh, so. So if you could say, right today, I'm not saying you, but on average,

788
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:02,880
I make so much per episode through advertising.

789
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,680
At what point do you think you'll cross or the industry will cross over where

790
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,280
micro payments is actually the bigger revenue value generator than advertising,

791
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,320
at which point the content creator can go, you know what?

792
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,560
Screw ads. I'm now making more than enough money through this model.

793
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,840
Are we talking five years or hopefully not 19 years?

794
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:30,640
Oh, it's it's it's that's a loaded question, because if you only have a thousand listeners.

795
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:38,400
Today, thousand engaged listeners and you run one ad spot on a traditional CPM.

796
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,320
Oh, you make a whopping twenty five bucks.

797
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,040
Yeah. But what if those what?

798
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,560
What if so for smaller shows and value for value?

799
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,280
What if a thousand, let's say 10 percent.

800
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,080
Of those thousand send you a dollar a month.

801
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:02,720
In sats, yeah, equivalent value, then you've already replaced your ad.

802
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:10,800
If you're ten thousand and you cross that over, OK, ten thousand downloads an episode,

803
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,680
you could potentially make two hundred fifty dollars an episode.

804
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,240
You do four episodes a month. That's a thousand dollars.

805
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:19,280
You have to use this analogy to go and say, where does it cross?

806
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,760
You got to kind of do a little bit of simple math.

807
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,800
And again, it's about getting the getting the audience, training the audience

808
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,720
and providing value and getting in.

809
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,600
And I hate to say train, that's probably someone's cringing out there.

810
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,560
But to make them understand, hey, you want to support this show?

811
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,720
I don't have an advertiser, you know, please, you know, time to go.

812
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:41,760
Time, talent or treasure.

813
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,920
And it can work.

814
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:46,880
It can.

815
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,280
I think that I would consider my audience.

816
00:47:53,760 --> 00:48:00,720
The size of the audience I have, if if just 10 percent donated every month.

817
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,160
Anyone have to be a lot.

818
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,720
I've always said one to two dollars and I could if actually if 100 percent of my

819
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:12,480
audience gave a dollar a month, I could hire like four people.

820
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,080
You know, there could be some significant changes.

821
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,520
So let's say 10 percent or five percent, because that's all you're really ever

822
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,520
going to get. Maybe five, six, seven percent.

823
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,440
Maybe the audience will donate.

824
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,720
So if you figure seven percent of your existing, let's say you have a thousand,

825
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:29,840
that means 70 people.

826
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,560
If they give you a dollar or two a month or more, it's a minimum.

827
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,280
You know, and again, it doesn't have to be a dollar.

828
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:38,560
It could be a hundred dollars.

829
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,920
They got that enough value out of it or a thousand dollars.

830
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,760
I mean, I've heard some contributors to, you know, Adam and No Agenda.

831
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:46,260
Wow.

832
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:48,560
You know, a couple thousand bucks.

833
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:49,680
I'm like, holy cow.

834
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:50,160
Exactly.

835
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:51,360
Talk about me.

836
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:52,320
Was you.

837
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,280
It wasn't me.

838
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:53,840
It wasn't me.

839
00:48:55,120 --> 00:49:00,560
So, you know, those are those are fans that, you know, you love those types of fans.

840
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,080
And I think there is a path forward.

841
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,000
It just takes a mindset change.

842
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,680
And here's the thing.

843
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,360
Big shows are going to continue to monetize.

844
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,760
The 10 percent that are monetizing are going to monetize.

845
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:16,640
Let's take the 40 percent that can't get an advertiser if they wanted one,

846
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:18,960
unless they just want to run programmatic.

847
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,040
And I'm talking about when they want one, I mean, one that would pay a host read,

848
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,360
that you're going to get twenty five dollar or more CPM,

849
00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:31,120
where programmatic is anywhere between seven and fifteen.

850
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,680
I think you have the option.

851
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,880
You have the ability there if you go value for value from, you know, starting early

852
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,240
and even adopt it now.

853
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:42,640
I mean, you've been podcasting for 19 years.

854
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,400
I think over time you can build that.

855
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,520
Build that revenue.

856
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,280
But you got to get you got to you got to do good.

857
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:50,800
You got to put out great content.

858
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:51,920
Todd, thank you so much.

859
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,480
Thank you on behalf of the industry for the last 19 years of what you've done.

860
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,640
Hopefully you're here for another 19 years.

861
00:49:58,640 --> 00:49:59,760
Maybe maybe you will.

862
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:05,200
Maybe not in terms of you might be doing a, you know, a little important and leaving on a

863
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,600
steamship somewhere, but hopefully not.

864
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:14,720
But again, one of those last things I'd ask is if somebody wants to get involved in all of what

865
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:20,320
we've just talked about, you know, podcasting to that and power podcast mirror and all these things,

866
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:20,960
where would they go?

867
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,760
Well, if they want to talk to me personally, just Todd at Blueberry dot com,

868
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,320
Blueberry without the ease because we couldn't afford the ease.

869
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,000
There were two million dollars.

870
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,520
So BLUBRY.com.

871
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,360
And then, of course, you know, the podcast index and what's going on over there.

872
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,040
And, you know, it's very simple.

873
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,320
Search for podcasting 2.0 and you're going to find everything you want.

874
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,240
Value for value dot info, I think, is the site Adam set up.

875
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:46,800
The IO.

876
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:47,840
Talks about time talent.

877
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:48,400
.info.

878
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:49,760
Yeah, we'll have to share that one.

879
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:50,260
Yeah.

880
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:56,480
So, you know, again, if you want more information on podcast mirror, you just reach out to us and

881
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,160
we'll give you any information you want.

882
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,720
But I think the thing is, too, is if you're with a host that doesn't have any of these features,

883
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:08,560
ask them why we want everybody to enjoy the party here.

884
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:14,800
You know, doesn't have to be five or six hosts that are, you know, doing this alone.

885
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:20,480
Everyone could be a part of the party here and we won't have to be dependent upon the

886
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,200
YouTube, the Spotify's of the world.

887
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,400
Yes, the close shops told the close.

888
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:27,760
Thank you so much, mate.

889
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:28,960
Speak to you soon.

890
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:57,120
Hey, thank you.