1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,900 I'm Melissa Kishi and I'm a Senior Vice President at Edison Research. And I do a lot of things 2 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:10,660 at Edison, but the thing that is most relevant to what we're talking about today is that 3 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:17,140 I lead the Edison Podcast Metrics subscription product, both in the US and now in the UK. 4 00:00:17,140 --> 00:00:22,860 Yes, and the UK numbers came out over the weekend. What are you measuring in Edison 5 00:00:22,860 --> 00:00:26,300 Podcast Metrics UK and how do you compile that list? 6 00:00:26,300 --> 00:00:31,100 Sure. So what we are ultimately measuring is in order to do our rankers is the weekly 7 00:00:31,100 --> 00:00:37,940 reach among weekly podcast listeners. So each quarter we are in the field every single day. 8 00:00:37,940 --> 00:00:44,140 We're interviewing at least 2000 weekly podcast listeners each quarter. So that means about 9 00:00:44,140 --> 00:00:49,140 20 or 30 listeners are participating in the study each day. 10 00:00:49,140 --> 00:00:54,020 And in the study itself, the main question that we're asking people is to list all of 11 00:00:54,020 --> 00:00:59,100 the podcasts that they've listened to in the past week. And it's an open ended question. 12 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:03,180 There's no insane drop down menu that would be very cumbersome and certainly probably 13 00:01:03,180 --> 00:01:07,780 very biased if we had some sort of a drop down menu. And the question itself, it's 14 00:01:07,780 --> 00:01:12,320 actually a multi step question, because we really want to make sure that people are considering 15 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:16,940 all of the places that they're doing their listening. We don't want them to just consider 16 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:23,020 what they might have on their phone. We want them to consider apps, websites, social media, 17 00:01:23,020 --> 00:01:27,700 YouTube, all of the possibilities for where they might be consuming podcasts. 18 00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:32,420 So it's not it's not just asking them what podcast you remember listening to last week. 19 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:33,940 It's a bit more focused. 20 00:01:33,940 --> 00:01:37,420 It's a bit more focused. And we know that there you know, there are still going to be 21 00:01:37,420 --> 00:01:41,900 some recency things here, the things that people listen to or enjoy the most they may 22 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:48,380 think of first. But they're given these instructions on how to actually access the listening histories 23 00:01:48,380 --> 00:01:52,340 in all of the places that they do do their listening, so that that reporting is really 24 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:58,140 comprehensive and that and they're considering sources that they may only access occasionally. 25 00:01:58,140 --> 00:02:01,600 So that helps it to be pretty comprehensive and all inclusive. 26 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,540 So why do you do it that way and not just talking to companies like Triton talking to 27 00:02:06,540 --> 00:02:11,020 companies and getting their log files and all that kind of stuff? Why why do it as a 28 00:02:11,020 --> 00:02:12,020 survey? 29 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:17,380 Well, we wanted comprehensiveness. We wanted this to be all inclusive. We didn't want any 30 00:02:17,380 --> 00:02:22,460 service or show or anything to be left out. As you know, Triton and Podtrack, the way 31 00:02:22,460 --> 00:02:28,940 they do their download listing or their download tracking is based on downloads and it's an 32 00:02:28,940 --> 00:02:33,820 opt in process. So only those companies that are interested in kind of paying to play are 33 00:02:33,820 --> 00:02:39,300 going to be listed in those rankers. So we wanted the ability to put everybody on the 34 00:02:39,300 --> 00:02:44,660 same playing field and be able to rank all shows and then eventually all networks in 35 00:02:44,660 --> 00:02:46,440 the same space. 36 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:53,420 So you put together the list and the top 25. Was there anything that surprised you about 37 00:02:53,420 --> 00:02:56,060 the shows that were in there? 38 00:02:56,060 --> 00:03:01,340 You know, I would say after four years of putting out the US ranker, I think I was just 39 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:06,620 most pleasantly surprised to see so much UK grown content. You know, I think there was 40 00:03:06,620 --> 00:03:11,260 this, unfortunately, this American-ness in me that assumed that there would be a lot 41 00:03:11,260 --> 00:03:16,420 more on the top 25 that would have been coming out of the US. And of course, you see Joe 42 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:22,180 Rogan at the top. There's a handful of other US shows, The Daily, stuff you should know, 43 00:03:22,180 --> 00:03:27,340 Impulsive. But really everything else is just like a testament to how unique British culture 44 00:03:27,340 --> 00:03:33,900 is. And then I think ultimately how it's going to impact the industry as a whole. I really 45 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:38,060 hope that the ranker encourages people outside the UK to actually check out some of these 46 00:03:38,060 --> 00:03:42,540 titles and maybe we'll start to see some of these titles up on our list as well in the 47 00:03:42,540 --> 00:03:43,540 US. 48 00:03:43,540 --> 00:03:48,620 I was curious as to whether or not you saw any differences between the types of shows 49 00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:53,300 that are in the top 25 in the US versus the types of shows that are in the UK. 50 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:59,740 Absolutely. So Miranda points this out to some extent, but the UK top 25, it's just 51 00:03:59,740 --> 00:04:06,260 a wider range of subjects than we see in the US. Even with like a standalone series format, 52 00:04:06,260 --> 00:04:10,620 True Crime is way more prevalent in the US charts. In fact, I don't think there are 53 00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:17,180 any True Crime shows in the top 25 in the UK. And in the United States, six of the top 54 00:04:17,180 --> 00:04:23,220 25 actually fall into that category. So you have Crime Junkie, Dateline NBC, Morbid, 55 00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:28,660 Serial, My Favorite Murder, Mr. Bollin. Those are all True Crime shows that make our top 56 00:04:28,660 --> 00:04:34,460 25. And I know that there are certainly a push to bring some of these shows to a wider 57 00:04:34,460 --> 00:04:39,140 audience, to a more global audience. So perhaps that will change as we track things over the 58 00:04:39,140 --> 00:04:45,700 next couple of quarters. But for now, the UK is much less into True Crime than we are 59 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:47,420 here in the US. 60 00:04:47,420 --> 00:04:54,660 Hooray. I think that's a good thing. Being a Brit, even though I don't always live in 61 00:04:54,660 --> 00:05:00,100 the UK, well, I don't live in the UK. But I think the other thing that occurred to me 62 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:04,380 when I was looking down the list is that there's an awful lot more specialism, I think, in 63 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:10,740 the UK list. There are shows about personal finance, there are shows about science, there 64 00:05:10,740 --> 00:05:20,020 are, you know, it's a much more, I think the US top 25, there's an awful lot of entertainment 65 00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:22,060 in there, I think. 66 00:05:22,060 --> 00:05:27,180 Entertainment and just general, a lot of kind of interview over that each show itself is 67 00:05:27,180 --> 00:05:33,300 quite different. It's not, like you said, not as focused as you might see. So yeah, 68 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:39,100 and certainly, I mean, we, we are starting to see some nostalgia type of podcasts on 69 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:44,260 the US list, you look at something like Office Ladies, you know, that kind of rewatch style 70 00:05:44,260 --> 00:05:47,700 podcast is starting to appear a lot on our lists. So yeah. 71 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:53,220 So you're not just putting this together for fun, this chart for fun, although it is 72 00:05:53,220 --> 00:05:59,540 great fun reading it. I guess it's part of the Edison podcast metrics product that you 73 00:05:59,540 --> 00:06:03,460 make available in the US. Are you making that available in the UK as well? 74 00:06:03,460 --> 00:06:09,380 Yes, absolutely. So I think that, you know, putting putting this in the Observer this weekend, 75 00:06:09,380 --> 00:06:14,100 it was our first chance in the UK, we didn't do this in the US to really put it in the 76 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:18,960 mainstream media and make podcasting more water cooler, you know, something that quarterly 77 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,980 people would actually talk about what's in the top 25. We haven't really done that in 78 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:29,180 the United States. The focus has really been for our clients, for our subscribers. So yes, 79 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:35,640 we will continue to have kind of this mainstream push out of the top 25. But then our subscribers, 80 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:41,820 it's available now. So in addition to being able to look at the podcast ranker, or network 81 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:47,700 rankers, subscribers have access to a lot of data in general on weekly podcast listeners. 82 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:49,660 So data like what? 83 00:06:49,660 --> 00:06:53,700 Yeah. So the main question, obviously, is what they listened to in the past week. But 84 00:06:53,700 --> 00:07:00,660 we also ask a ton of demographic questions. We ask about their usage of media and technology, 85 00:07:00,660 --> 00:07:06,060 their podcast listening habits, what type of content they consume, and a bunch of sales 86 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:11,500 targeting questions like, are you going to purchase a car in the next 12 months? So that 87 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:16,420 allows shows that have a large enough sample to have really access to a full show profile. 88 00:07:16,420 --> 00:07:20,140 So they can look at their show all their listeners and be able to look at the results of all 89 00:07:20,140 --> 00:07:26,380 of those questions, really extensive demographic information. You know, in the United States, 90 00:07:26,380 --> 00:07:31,660 subscribers are using this data. They're tracking podcast listening quarter over quarter. It's 91 00:07:31,660 --> 00:07:37,420 a report card that they're sharing with internal stakeholders. How is podcasting doing? How 92 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:44,100 are we doing? How are our competitors doing? And then on top of that, subscribers, they 93 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:48,340 have the ability to ask custom questions each quarter, which is really fun to see what they 94 00:07:48,340 --> 00:07:53,220 come up with to ask. I mean, we've certainly seen people ask about their specific shows 95 00:07:53,220 --> 00:07:59,020 or platforms, they might say test the film familiarity or the likability of new or current 96 00:07:59,020 --> 00:08:04,940 talent. But you know, here in the UK, we have 2000 weekly podcast listeners to talk to every 97 00:08:04,940 --> 00:08:10,060 quarter and subscribers can really ask them anything that they want. So seeing all different 98 00:08:10,060 --> 00:08:11,060 utilizations of that. 99 00:08:11,060 --> 00:08:16,460 Yeah, that's really interesting. So what kind of what kind of customers do you have? The 100 00:08:16,460 --> 00:08:18,820 Edison podcast metrics product? 101 00:08:18,820 --> 00:08:23,140 So we have a lot of publisher size clients. When we first launched this in 2019, that 102 00:08:23,140 --> 00:08:28,700 was really the push was to provide our publishers to provide producers with information about 103 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:33,860 the state of weekly podcast listeners, but then also what their listeners look like and 104 00:08:33,860 --> 00:08:39,980 what their competitors look competitors, listeners looked like. But then maybe we're coming up 105 00:08:39,980 --> 00:08:45,780 on a year, we started having conversations about the benefit of using this information 106 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:50,340 in a sales sense. So our publishers were using this information to help sell their shows. 107 00:08:50,340 --> 00:08:55,060 But now we're seeing it being used on the agency side. So back in January, I think I 108 00:08:55,060 --> 00:09:00,940 think you covered this in pod news, we signed an exclusive partnership with Nielsen to actually 109 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:05,340 sell this to agencies. So this is starting to be in quite a few agencies hands. They're 110 00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:09,740 using the rankers to really be able to look at what are the top shows among different 111 00:09:09,740 --> 00:09:17,140 demographics. We also have in the US and eventually in the UK and efficiency ranker, which allows 112 00:09:17,140 --> 00:09:23,540 you to determine your target and find the shows that are most like the target that you're 113 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:28,980 looking to seek. So if I'm trying to find a show with lots of women that have children, 114 00:09:28,980 --> 00:09:33,260 I can set that target and then it will tell me the shows that have the greatest makeup 115 00:09:33,260 --> 00:09:38,460 of women with children if I'm looking to sell diapers or, you know, some other sort 116 00:09:38,460 --> 00:09:40,580 of baby product. So yeah, 117 00:09:40,580 --> 00:09:44,980 yeah. And I guess that's another one of the big differences between the UK model and the 118 00:09:44,980 --> 00:09:51,060 US model in that the UK at least, you know, part of the podcasts that are in those top 119 00:09:51,060 --> 00:09:56,740 25, the BBC don't have any advertising on them in the UK. And so I guess, you know, 120 00:09:56,740 --> 00:10:01,260 it's a different conversation there where they will probably be interested in learning 121 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:04,020 a little bit more about the types of people who they're reaching. 122 00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:09,020 Yes, absolutely. And that is the case for all publishers that are here. Some people 123 00:10:09,020 --> 00:10:13,660 in the United States are really using it just to understand how is the awareness of their 124 00:10:13,660 --> 00:10:18,980 network changing over time? You know, how are they doing with different demographics 125 00:10:18,980 --> 00:10:22,980 with different subgroups? If they're really, if they've decided that they really want to 126 00:10:22,980 --> 00:10:28,140 push shows that are meeting a certain demographic, are these new shows actually getting them 127 00:10:28,140 --> 00:10:32,300 there? Is it changing the demographics of their network as they've added shows or, you 128 00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:36,580 know, brought in acquisitions and things like that? So yeah, that's that's definitely been 129 00:10:36,580 --> 00:10:38,060 a way that people have used this. 130 00:10:38,060 --> 00:10:43,900 Yeah, really interesting. More details on that at edisonresearch.com. We've seen the 131 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:48,900 top 25. I'm just sort of wondering whether is there anything else that this study has 132 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:52,900 unveiled about podcasts listening in the UK that you might be able to tell us? 133 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:57,940 Absolutely. So I'll give you I'll give you a couple of little things, James. So one of 134 00:10:57,940 --> 00:11:04,260 the questions that we ask is what is the service that people use most often to listen to podcasts? 135 00:11:04,260 --> 00:11:10,140 And it's probably not a surprise that Spotify comes in at number one in the US and both 136 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:17,620 the UK. So 33% of people in the UK say that they're using Spotify the most often to listen 137 00:11:17,620 --> 00:11:26,300 to podcasts. That's followed by YouTube at 19%. And then BBC sounds at 15%. So BBC sounds 138 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:31,060 coming in at number three there. Obviously, we don't have BBC sounds on our chart. And 139 00:11:31,060 --> 00:11:36,620 then Apple coming in fourth, third on the US chart and fourth on the UK chart here. 140 00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:45,260 Apple 13% saying that they use that the most often. Then I will also give you we were looking 141 00:11:45,260 --> 00:11:53,820 at the top shows among women. So the top five shows among women change a little bit from 142 00:11:53,820 --> 00:12:02,260 the top in general. So Rogan totally drops even outside of the top 15. Wow, really? Yeah. 143 00:12:02,260 --> 00:12:06,740 So that means that his number one position in the UK, it's almost entirely motivated 144 00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:11,900 by male listening. Whereas in the United States, Rogan is still number two among women. So 145 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:16,100 that was pretty shocking for us to see that to see it to drop all the way down. But the 146 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:22,900 top five among women, Diary of a CEO, Shagged, Married, Annoyed, Off Menu with Ed Gamble 147 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:27,780 and James Acaster, which are the three that are on the main list. But what hops up among 148 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:34,260 women in the fourth and fifth place is newlyweds formerly called nearly weds. And then number 149 00:12:34,260 --> 00:12:40,020 five is happy place. So certainly more female geared content in the fourth and fifth place 150 00:12:40,020 --> 00:12:44,740 there. That's really interesting, really interesting. And how fascinating that Rogan completely 151 00:12:44,740 --> 00:12:49,780 drops out of that out of that list. That's fascinating stuff. Excellent. It's always 152 00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:56,740 nice to have an exclusive. So that's a great thing. When do we get the next round of data 153 00:12:56,740 --> 00:13:01,420 and will you be releasing things like, you know, the publisher charts as well at some 154 00:13:01,420 --> 00:13:05,540 at some point? So we just finished feeling or actually, I guess we have a few more days 155 00:13:05,540 --> 00:13:11,380 in the field for quarter three. It takes us about a month to process the data. While we 156 00:13:11,380 --> 00:13:16,380 are able to code a lot of the open ended question algorithmically, there is still a ton, especially 157 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:21,100 since it's new in the UK that we do need to do by hand. So we need to kind of go through 158 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:28,100 and determine if a show is is correctly listed and that if it is properly attributed to the 159 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:34,180 producer and then the publisher, the network. So we will probably release the next one. 160 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:40,140 I would say early November is is the goal to put that out. And we will definitely continue 161 00:13:40,140 --> 00:13:46,020 with the top 25 shows. We will probably add network at that point. At minimum, we will 162 00:13:46,020 --> 00:13:50,820 see top genres, which will be interesting to see to how that tracks against the UK if 163 00:13:50,820 --> 00:13:56,180 we see true crime kind of falling down based on what we see in the ranker itself. Yeah, 164 00:13:56,180 --> 00:14:02,460 yeah. Really, really fascinating. Well, Melissa, thank you so much for your time. And, you 165 00:14:02,460 --> 00:14:10,700 know, as a Brit, it is wonderful after so many failed attempts to get a proper ranker 166 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:16,780 for podcasting. It's really nice to actually see one. So thank you for that. And yeah, 167 00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:21,300 and I'm looking forward to seeing how the figures change. Awesome. I appreciate it, 168 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:42,300 James. We'll talk soon.