1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,440 Now, one of the reasons I get you on to pod news was you wrote this interesting article in Vanity Fair. 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,600 Now, first of all, why did you write the article? 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,240 What was the genesis of it? 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:11,840 And then give us the beef. 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,400 What was the main thinking behind the article? 6 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:22,600 You know, the truth is it came from a place of trying to understand myself, given what's happened in the industry. 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:30,680 My career really followed, I think, a very classic trajectory of this boom and bust cycle of podcasts. 8 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:36,400 And so I felt uniquely privileged into seeing how some of that worked. 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:49,880 And I just kept on having this feeling like, oh, this thing that I loved, that I did from a place of service and artisan and creativity 10 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:56,840 and like a true soulful place has sort of become the word that comes to mind is bastard eyes. 11 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,440 And I was trying to sort of find myself in that. 12 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:07,560 And I thought the more that I talked to other people about it, the more other people were like, yeah, I kind of feel like that too. 13 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:15,840 And then also, you know, I've talked to people across industries and I have people who are like, yeah, like, nobody's really interested in buying or funding podcasts anymore. 14 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:22,280 Like it's just not a sexy investment place right now for people outside of the industry. 15 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:31,560 So I thought branding is such like a buzzword and I thought it would be kind of funny or cheeky to be like, what's wrong with the podcast brand? 16 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,040 Where did it come off the rails? 17 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:41,640 And how are the people who still make it thinking about it and interacting with this term and do they care? 18 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,720 And so that's really where it came from. 19 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,560 So why do you feel it's come off the rails? 20 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:53,160 I mean, yes, advertising has taken a dip and OK, Spotify stopped doing exclusives. 21 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,720 But the number of podcasts is still growing. 22 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,600 Yes, of course, we had a massive hiatus through COVID. 23 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,040 Everyone's home board Spotify came up with a do it for free model. 24 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,840 So we saw a massive spike. 25 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,240 But generally, the upward trend of those people that are repeat episodes is upwards. 26 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:15,960 Advertising CPMs are staying around the twenty four twenty five dollar mark for most people. 27 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:23,760 So why do you feel that podcasting's bubbles popped and that it's become I suppose passe is what you're trying to say. 28 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,080 So let me be clear. 29 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,320 I don't think podcasting quote unquote is going anywhere. 30 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:39,640 I think a very specific chapter in podcasting that felt exciting and lucrative and had a lot of potential has ended. 31 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:49,960 So the way that I saw it is that in twenty fourteen, serial came out and that the New York Times called it podcast first blockbuster hit. 32 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,200 And suddenly everybody was like, oh, podcast, this is a cool space. 33 00:02:53,200 --> 00:03:01,440 And all the public radio nerds were starting to be like, oh, maybe I can make my dream project over here in this wild west space. 34 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:07,080 And from that, you get Gimlet, Alex Bloomberg, as well, Sarah Cain and both came from this American life. 35 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,080 And this starts to grow and grow. 36 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:21,760 And then in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, because of the crazy election cycle, we start to see a mass burst of news podcasts because people are suddenly like, I can't keep up with it. 37 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:22,560 What's going on? 38 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,880 I need somebody I trust to explain this to me. 39 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,200 So then again, we see another burst. 40 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:36,640 And then in twenty eighteen, Spotify goes public and part of their IPO strategy is to buy up everything and to be the Netflix of podcasts. 41 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:43,680 So what I was seeing and we can talk about my own career is that for a little while, the only game in town was public radio. 42 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,840 And then suddenly there's this big open commercial space. 43 00:03:47,840 --> 00:04:00,040 And what I think I was naive to and maybe we all were is that corporate dollars will inherently change how we do things, how we make things, what gets made, why things get made. 44 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:16,080 And what I saw is a lot of that money that Spotify specifically, but other people were investing in podcasts, were going towards people who hadn't made podcasts and then hired the people who had made them to work for those people. 45 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,840 And now, however, many years later, the rent is due and it didn't pan out. 46 00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:22,440 You know what I mean? 47 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:23,720 Like it just didn't pan out. 48 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:40,760 And so what I have observed in terms of understanding branding is when you see a lot of headlines and you see a lot of negative trends and stocks going down and deals being broken and layoffs and gimlet barely exists anymore. 49 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:49,520 When you see all of these things, it's very hard to get somebody who doesn't already love this thing excited about this thing. 50 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,080 So that's what I'm seeing. 51 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,360 It's not like, oh, what was me like celebrities are gone. 52 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:55,880 So the industry is over. 53 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:03,600 I'm saying this very specific wave that had a lot of promise when off the rails and is now over. 54 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,320 And that's hard for a lot of people, including myself. 55 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,720 Isn't it very much like wet one, Toto? 56 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,480 We had crazy valuations. 57 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,960 We had money flying into the industry. 58 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,320 Petzar asked friend to reunite here. 59 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:17,280 You name it, right? 60 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:28,960 I remember a friend of mine, Michael Burch, at Bebo, 400 million he was paid for fundamentally, you know, a very simple, very basic social network that then was just crashed and burned. 61 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,600 So are we not seeing that same thing? 62 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:37,040 Maybe we're seeing the first hiatus of podcasting, the money's in, the money's out, and maybe that dip will come back with something else. 63 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,120 100% of course it will. 64 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,000 I have no doubt said it will. 65 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,160 I absolutely think that it will come back. 66 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,080 I think that lots of it will survive. 67 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,920 There are still people thriving. 68 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:59,080 But unless the people who love it start talking about it publicly and figuring out what we want that next chapter to look like, then we are not in control. 69 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:00,440 We don't have our fingerprints on it. 70 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,760 And again, I think that's something Sam Sanders talked about this in the article. 71 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:14,120 And I had seen this too, which is when I would get into the rooms of decision makers and money holders, it was almost never somebody who had built 72 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:15,480 their career in podcast. 73 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,240 It was somebody who had come from something else and made it there. 74 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:25,720 So part of my point of my article is like, OK, let's pretend for one second that the people who make podcasts are in charge of podcasts. 75 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:26,600 What do we want to call it? 76 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,120 What do we want people to know about it? 77 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:29,160 What's great about this? 78 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,760 What's different about it than television and why is it special? 79 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,560 OK, so in the article, you did ask what should we return this? 80 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,560 Do you have any ideas what we should return it? 81 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:41,800 No. 82 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:42,880 OK, that's fine. 83 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,960 Not really. No, I don't know. 84 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,240 I was being a little bit cheeky, right? 85 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,160 Like, I don't think we're actually going to call it something else. 86 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:56,120 What I've found across the board pulling friends because, like, I wasn't sure either. 87 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:05,400 Not everybody I talked to ended up in the article, but I think a lot of people like to say they worked in audio, that they work in audio, that they're audio storytellers, that they produce audio. 88 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:12,480 I talked to one friend who works at a pretty high profile production company and she was like something about the word podcast feels like, oh, 89 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:20,280 it's just anybody on the mic and that can mean video and that can mean on YouTube and it could also mean this American life. 90 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:30,800 And when you put things like that and it's all just like a bucket, it's very hard to explain to people why one thing needs a quarter million dollars worth of funding and one thing you can do in your basement for fun. 91 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:31,960 You know what I mean? 92 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,200 Yeah, I do. 93 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:33,720 Yeah. 94 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,840 But if we said film could be independent film, it could be a blockbuster film, it could be anything. 95 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:48,240 I suppose in my head we have these generic words, I think then we need to secondary words that will then delineate them and think that's what we're missing. 96 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:49,400 I totally agree. 97 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:54,080 I don't think we're going to change the word podcast in anybody's mind. 98 00:07:54,080 --> 00:08:01,880 Part of the reason why I wanted to talk to Ira Glass, other than the fact that he was like my hero and he started this whole thing and yada, yada, yada. 99 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:17,200 He was a semiotics major, right? Like he studied how we interact with signs, you know, like how we experience words and ideas in the world and how that then changes our behavior. 100 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:25,360 And so that's kind of what I was thinking is like when we interact with the word podcast, are we interacting differently with the word documentary or storyteller? 101 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:44,080 And I think a criticism of the article was so what's the point? And I don't know if I, I don't know if I have a specific point except to say I want to be part of the public conversation and I want other people who care about this medium to be part of the public conversation about what it is and where it should go and how it should be funded and respected. 102 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:44,560 Cool. 103 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:49,840 Then you said that you had a lot of feedback on the article as well. Give us a flavor. 104 00:08:49,840 --> 00:09:03,760 So it was funny because it was very, I'm gonna say makes so though, I would say for the most part, I got a lot of people who said, thank you for seeing me. This is how I feel. I am having my own existential crisis about this thing. 105 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:11,760 I don't know how to describe it. I'm deeply disappointed. And then there were other people that were like, yeah, this is banal. Who cares? Let's talk about craft. 106 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:27,200 But here's what I thought was really interesting for me personally is that really divided along the lines between the people who are able to make and start and sustain a career in public radio and those who are not and were tied to a commercial system. 107 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:44,480 And I thought that was really interesting because like, yeah, of course, if you've been able to pay your rent and make advancements and tell the story you want to tell for all these years and you haven't had to look at what the trends are and who the money is coming from. 108 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:58,080 And then of course you would be like, yeah, craft is the most important thing, but it's been interesting seeing that's mostly come from people who've worked and stayed in public radio. And I'm gonna add mostly men. 109 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:10,480 And I think that's really important to remember that podcasting is still like something like 70% men that there's very few women in it. There's fewer opportunities for women in it. 110 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:23,600 And so seeing that feedback, I was like, it's interesting who gets to focus on craft and who has to worry about where the money is coming from and what people think of it and how we're going to sell it and pay our rent going forward. 111 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,800 So let me tell you that gender discussion you just had there. 112 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:27,600 Sure. 113 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:35,440 Why do women not get involved? So I can look at my wife, a super smart business woman of the year, blah, blah, blah. 114 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:43,200 She listens to very few, if any podcast doesn't feel the value. She would never start a podcast, right? There was no desire. 115 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:53,440 And often it's really weird. So my wife has said before when she's gone for a senior role, women wait until they're overqualified and men go when they're under quality. 116 00:10:53,440 --> 00:11:00,160 But that's not a fault of men and that's not a fault of women. It's just it's the system. It's the generic makeup. 117 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:11,840 So are you saying the reason is that there's a barrier for women coming into podcasting or are you saying that women don't want to put their selves out there front and center as much as men do? 118 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,400 Which is it, do you think? 119 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:22,480 So this is a great question. I think that my next article might center on this idea because I think probably the answer is both. 120 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:32,160 I think that a couple of things, something that I think about a lot is people criticize women's vocal fry disproportionately to men. 121 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,960 Like when we do it, it's a problem. When men do it, it's just like how they talk. 122 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,440 And we still think of words like shrill when it comes to women and not men. 123 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:50,320 Like there are all these social constructs for women and how we hear women that would make us one reticent to get on the mic and two, 124 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:56,720 to make people less likely to take us seriously and want to listen to us in theory. 125 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:03,360 And I think that those things still show up in this utopic democratized space where anybody can do it. 126 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:08,640 You know, it's affected my own career. Like I've just seen it happen over and over again. 127 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,880 And it's something that I want to dig into. Like I wish that I had a very clear and specific answer. 128 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:18,000 But I think, you know, we live in a culture where we'd rather see women than hear women. 129 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,320 And so it makes a lot of sense that in a medium where you do not see a woman, 130 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,440 that we'd be less likely to want to hear what she has to say from a place of authority. 131 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,160 Okay, you've never thought of it that way, but that's interesting. 132 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,640 Okay, so you talked about your career. So let's have a look. How did you get into podcasting? 133 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,120 How long have you been in podcasting and how did you get into it? 134 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,240 So I'll give you the long story and you can edit and post. 135 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:42,560 So 136 00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:46,240 like comes from an editor. 137 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,000 It comes from a tag. Thank you. 138 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,800 Like you'll think and you can do that later with. 139 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:59,120 There you go. Yeah. So when I was in college, I was like a starry eyed, I want to save the world 140 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:05,520 gal. And I went to go spend a summer working at a nonprofit health clinic and reforestation 141 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:13,360 program in Borneo, Indonesia, like middle of nowhere to study. Like it was a barter economy. 142 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:19,920 It was hell. It was fascinating to me. And it was like a three day like boat ride. 143 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,520 But you know, like it was a crazy journey. And I got there and I was like, 144 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,200 forgive me, fuck, what am I doing here? I am not a doctor. I'm not a botanist. 145 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,760 And like, what have I done skills? Do I bring to this village? 146 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:37,920 Yeah, like what and I'm here and yeah, what am I doing? But this particular clinic was 147 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,960 attached to the Yale Medical School and the Yale Medical magazine reached out to me and they said, 148 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:48,080 hey, like you're over there this summer. Do you want to make a short documentary about 149 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:54,160 what you're doing over there? And it was like a light bulb, you know, whatever it was, I was like, 150 00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:00,480 that is it. That's what I really want to do is go to these places, talk to people, 151 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,560 doing amazing things to change the world, people that we aren't hearing from exotic places. You 152 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:09,040 know, this is like the height of the Anthony Bourdain style of journalism. And it was like, 153 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:15,920 that's what I want to do. And then I spent many years doing unpaid internships and waiting tables. 154 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:24,640 And around when I was like 25, I had an internship at Frontline, and it just didn't go anywhere. 155 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,080 I was like, okay, well, I can't pay my rent on this. And so my mom was like, why don't you apply 156 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:33,680 to grad school and see what happens? And I did it in a month because it was due the next month. 157 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:39,680 I just did it blind. I never considered grad school. I did the whole thing and I got a full 158 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:47,040 scholarship to go. I was like, it was like Boston University, thank you so much. You changed my 159 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,280 life. I will say it over and over again. Yeah, they gave me a full scholarship and a stipend and I 160 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:57,520 went and this was before podcasting was really cool. All I knew when I talked to my thesis advisor, 161 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,680 I said, I want to do international reporting. And I want to tell stories like Ira Glass. 162 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:07,760 And she said, have you considered doing public radio? And to be honest, I was like, oh, 163 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:14,560 it never even occurred to me that people get paid to do public radio, you know? But the answer was 164 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,520 yes. And at the time, nobody else was doing it. And so I got every fellowship and internship and 165 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:25,520 whatever under the sun. And that was literally the same year that serial came out. And then by the 166 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:31,040 next semester, everybody wanted to do podcasting. So I really just got in a right place right. 167 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:38,800 That's 100%. And then when grad school was over, and this is one of those moments where I saw that 168 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:45,200 men got opportunities that women didn't, I was told like, go to a small station and work your way 169 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:50,320 up, even though I had male counterparts that like got to stay at the big station and talking to the 170 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:56,400 mic. And so I moved to literally middle of nowhere, Vermont. I would skate that good skiing. 171 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:02,320 Oh, good skiing. Oh, it's beautiful. Oh, it is beautiful. I worked in the basement of the King 172 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,120 Arthur flower factory. Maybe not so good. But yeah, yeah, like literally the middle of nowhere. 173 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:14,800 And I'm like 26. I'm like a pretty young single woman with my dog. But it was the most fun job. 174 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:20,400 Because really, I was just there every day being like, what am I curious about? And then I got to 175 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:26,480 go take a microphone out and have those conversations. And then ultimately, I won the National Murrow 176 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,440 Award for one of my pieces there. And I got pieces on NPR National. And but at a certain point, 177 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,120 like it just wasn't happening fast enough. I was like, I don't want to live in the middle of nowhere 178 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:40,800 forever. Like I want to go to a bear market. And it just wasn't happening. And at the same time, 179 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:46,480 was the time I'm describing where news podcasts, the Daily Comes Out, Pod Save America, Today Explained, 180 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:53,600 like all these news podcasts are coming out. And I had this, oh, maybe my career as an audio 181 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,920 journalist doesn't have to be tied to the public radio system, which is not giving me enough 182 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,560 opportunities. So I moved to New York, which is where it was sort of happening at the time. And 183 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,120 I'd live there when I was younger. And I'm from outside the city. And I was a waitress. And I 184 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:14,080 took gig after gig after gig. And I worked like 80 hours a week. I worked nonstop. And I had cold 185 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:21,040 called a bunch of people. It really was scrappy. And eventually, I got a call from my contact at 186 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:28,320 Vox Media at the time. And she was like, Hey, Kara Swisher is revamping this podcast feed that 187 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,040 she had, they want to make it into something new. Do you want to come in and develop it with us? And 188 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:39,920 I was like, Yeah. And so I did that as a gig producer for about six plus months. I was in the 189 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:45,520 room before it was called Pivot. I built the original structure. I was there the first time 190 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:52,080 they got together and the energy in that room was bananas crazy. And then eventually it became 191 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,920 successful. Then I went internal at Vox and then later at New York Magazine. And then ultimately, 192 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:03,200 I was poached. I was poached. Somebody reached out to me from the middle of come back to the 193 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,800 poaching. So let's go back. You said how it was successful. What made that show successful? 194 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:15,200 The chemistry is good. I mean, I'm a fan of the show. And I'm amazed because for Kara to come 195 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:21,200 back from those days of having one Mossberg to find a partner who I suppose come back, 196 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:28,160 come back her back. What I love about Scott is he can be rude. He can be a face of but what he can 197 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,720 be is very informative at the same time. So Kara does actually step back when he gets into 198 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:39,520 Professor mode in Brand mode. And she does expect that he does know his shit. So so in that sense, 199 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:45,520 they have an equal standing, I think. They're very good at holding one other accountable. 200 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,520 Something that I really like about Scott personally, I say this from a genuine place is 201 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:56,400 he can be rude. He can be a fade like he can be all of those things. And he can take criticism. 202 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:01,600 And he can say, huh, I hadn't thought about it that way. And then course correct. And I think 203 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,040 that's kind of what's special about their dynamic to is they listen to one another, like they go 204 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:12,240 back and forth and go back and forth, but they are willing to concede to the other person, learn 205 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:17,440 from the other person. There's so much in their chemistry that like, may we all find our Scott 206 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:23,520 to our Kara, you know what I mean? But this is I can tell you from my perspective, the moment 207 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:29,520 that pivot got big. And from a podcast perspective, why I think that's interesting. So from the 208 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:36,880 beginning, the original pivot structure was their intro, big story breakdown, wins and fails, and 209 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:43,040 predictions and predictions was I had seen Scott was already in the business world sort of known 210 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:50,080 for his trends and analysis. And so I thought this was a good way to kick the show every week is 211 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,720 just like come in and do your predictions. And we did that over and over again. And then relatively 212 00:19:54,720 --> 00:20:02,640 early on, Scott got his hands on the WeWork S one. And we started doing predictions about the WeWork 213 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:08,240 tumble week over week, in that very specific section that people knew to come after the break, 214 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,360 right? They'd already listened to their midroll. So we kept people listening. And week over week, 215 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:17,600 that started to become the place where people knew they could hear about this crazy story. And 216 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:23,440 Scott was really good at being just like one step ahead of it. And that's when I really started to 217 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:29,360 see things take off for pivot. And then what's interesting is, I used to cut the show at about 218 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:33,760 30 minutes, keep it really tight. And I remember the first time we did a live event, somebody came 219 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:39,040 up to me and they were like, my only problem with pivot is I want more pivot. And so that's really 220 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:44,560 what ended up happening is like we start cutting it long. And then we went to two days a week. And 221 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,160 so then we had to be like, okay, what are new segments that we can do that make people want to 222 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,800 come to both days, but we can still sell ads, and people will listen through them. But I always 223 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:58,560 thought it was really interesting, like that's how important format is. And a brand that people 224 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:06,240 come back to is I think people started to associate pivot with predictions that were coming true in 225 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,960 sort of like the broader. Yeah, I mean, they've done great job on predicting what's going on with 226 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:16,880 X as we have to now call it. Yeah, previously now on his Twitter. Yeah, that's not gonna lie. 227 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:23,840 Especially in bad branding, right? Exactly. Oh, look, I think I own x.com. I'll rename my company. 228 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,720 There's another news, another five billion on the valuation. Sure, like, sure, just keep 229 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:34,880 him with me, my friend. So, okay, so pivot, pivot's done many things. He's gone multi day, 230 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:41,200 it's gone live, it's gone international, he's done all sorts of things. Sure. Again, if you were 231 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,280 still in pivot, what would you be doing? I mean, put your hat back on. What would you say they 232 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,760 need to do? Do they need to do anything to keep it fresh or change it up? Or is the format good 233 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:55,440 and stick to your knitting? What I would do personally and like, nobody's asked me and I 234 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,760 genuinely am not. Well, I have, I have asked you. Yeah, there you go. You have. I think that what I 235 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:05,280 would do is a pivot universe is start doing spin off shows the same way like Pod Save America has. 236 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,680 And I guess they have on with Caris Whisher and they have the Prof G show, but pivot should be an 237 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,320 overhead brand. And then they should have young people, they should have some 25 year old doing 238 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:21,200 a Bitcoin podcast. I don't know, that's a bad idea. But you see what I'm saying. I think what they 239 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:27,520 should be doing is spin offs. Like maybe I thought it would be interesting to do one investigative 240 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:33,760 piece a quarter where like pivot is on Tuesdays and Fridays, but it's also on Wednesdays and 241 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:39,360 Thursdays, you know, once a quarter and it deep dives into what's going on with X or whatever. 242 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:44,160 That's what I would do is expand it as pivot is the umbrella brand, you know, they have their 243 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,920 conference already, build it out and open up to new voices and new perspectives that are 244 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:56,880 in line with their tone and their thinking and their subject expertise and use it as a 245 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,760 flywheel, right? Like you already have sort of like a marketing circle there that can feed itself. 246 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,240 Yeah, you've got an audience extend the audience brand value. I mean, we're seeing that with, 247 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,240 I don't know if you listened to them, but there's a great two shows in the UK once called the Rest 248 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,280 This Politics and they've just extended that it was Rest This History, then became Rest This Politics 249 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:23,120 and they're just about to extend that into other brands around the rest is and then the news agent, 250 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:29,280 which is another great show of X BBC people, they've now got the news agent USA because they used to 251 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:35,360 be the USA BBC correspondence. So they've extended it so I can see how other people could do it. 252 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:40,480 It's interesting. I mean, I guess it also fits into the fact that I don't know if Cara and Scott 253 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,320 have got enough hours in the day to extend. Right. I mean, look, Cara has more hours in the day. I 254 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,640 don't know where her hours come from, you know what I mean? And she really does do it for herself. 255 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:56,400 People are like, well, she must have an assistant. I'm like, Cara is a machine. But I agree is like 256 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,720 at a certain point, there's like an oversaturation and what they can do and what they can offer. 257 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:06,480 But what they can also do is sort of point at the people around them. And I think in a lot of 258 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:11,760 ways that's what she did with Recode many years ago. But I think Pivot is a big enough brand and a 259 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:18,480 big enough institution that they could start doing that. Okay. So let's move on. You said the word, 260 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:24,080 you got poached. What was that call? I didn't use that word you did. So you must have been at home 261 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:30,400 one day. Hi. Yeah. We'd like you to come and work for this new company called Ardwell. Who the hell's 262 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:38,480 Ardwell? What happened? I mean, honestly, that's more or less it. They didn't use the word Ardwell. 263 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:44,560 So honestly, I got reached out to on LinkedIn as I do often and I took the call, they were just, 264 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:49,440 there's a job at Spotify. Are you interested? And I looked at the job description and it was 265 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:56,880 interesting. And I was like, okay, sure. And the recruiter was like, somebody very well known 266 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:03,440 is looking to make podcasts at the intersection of entertainment and social justice. And I was like, 267 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:11,600 like dream job. That is absolutely like if I were to, even still, if I were to say what it is that 268 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,240 I want to do, it looks like that. And I was like, yeah, I'm interested and we had a good conversation. 269 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:21,200 And I happen to have been at the 2016 International AIDS Conference as part of reporting that I had 270 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:26,720 done around that time with the Pulitzer Center and Prince Harry had been there. And so I think even 271 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,800 that conversation, I had mentioned something about that. And I left the call and I was like, 272 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,600 who could this be? And I looked around, I was like, is it Ava DuBernet? And I was like, I think this 273 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,360 is Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. Like, oh my God. And lo and behold, it was. And then from there, 274 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:46,960 I can't really talk too much about it. But I would say a good three month long interview process and 275 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:52,880 a lot of conversations and a lot of what do we want to do and what are the goals and what do you 276 00:25:52,880 --> 00:26:00,560 want to do? And yeah, nothing will be more surreal in my life than that. I mean, truly, I'm like, 277 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:08,240 anything that is the nobody could have told me in the basement in Vermont, telling stories for 278 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:14,480 local public radio, that was going to happen one day. And this is a reminder to answer your inbox 279 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,760 because you don't know who's knocking, you know, exactly. So how much input did you have in the 280 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,680 direction of it? I mean, as I said, your role in editorial and production, what side of the fence 281 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,800 were you? Hey, I'm the expert podcast. So let me tell you how they should run in the format. Or 282 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,480 was this, we are the Royals and let me tell you how we want this to play out. Where was the bounce? 283 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,760 I wish I could talk about that, but I really can't talk about that on the record. 284 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,120 Okay. Can you tell me, did you curtsy the first time? That's all I need to know. 285 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:51,200 No, I very much did not. And let me say that they are very warm people. Okay. You know, 286 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:56,560 like I didn't feel like that was expected of me. Now, I wouldn't have thought so. Now, they had some 287 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:02,080 negative press around from podcast saying the horrible word which he was grifters. Again, 288 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,720 not talking about the individuals, but do you think those types of exclusives within Spotify 289 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,760 actually work? Because I don't think it's just them that didn't work, particularly. I think the 290 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,160 Abomas didn't work. I think Michelle Abomas one didn't work. I think you look at the one. 291 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:25,200 Kim Kardashian, Ava DuVernay, like the list goes on. I have lots of opinions on this that I can only 292 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:32,000 share privately, but I think Megan and Harry became the poster child for something that happened in a 293 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:39,920 lot of different places. And I think, I guess, let me say, I don't think that there was ill intention 294 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,640 from anybody. I think that there was, this is again why I want to try this article is I think 295 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:51,200 there weren't enough people in the room who were like, I make audio. That is my career. That will 296 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,000 be my career after this. This was my career before this. There weren't enough people who really 297 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:03,680 understood the fundamentals of what works and how it needs to be done. And that kind of strategy 298 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:09,920 won't pan out. So given, I think the quarterly returns for Spotify, increased user numbers, 299 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:16,640 down on their R-Poo though, so average revenue per user, increasing the price, so possibly losing 300 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:22,320 some people, subscriptions really not working, advertising, flatlining, where do you think 301 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:28,240 Spotify is going next? I couldn't really begin to know, but from the outside, because I'm no 302 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:35,200 longer inside, but I think they're hunkering down. I think that they are reassessing. I think my guess 303 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,680 is they don't really know where they're going next. I think what they're trying to do is trim the fat 304 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,000 everywhere and get out of the limelight a little bit until they're a little bit more clear. What I 305 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,360 will say that I thought was interesting is they've made a deal with Trevor Noah, which I think is in 306 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:57,360 a better direction because at least he is proven to be somebody who can do consistent on-mic talent. 307 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,760 And they did it as a one-off, right? Like they aren't doing these overall mega-million dollar, 308 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:10,240 how many shows deals, but that being said, they're still leaning into celebrity who might not fully 309 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,560 understand. I think there's imagination in podcasting where it's like, oh, you just talk into a mic 310 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,920 and you can do it anywhere and it's super easy. And I think that will never end well. So I don't 311 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,880 know. I think Spotify is tamping down, is looking internally, is trying to figure it out. I think 312 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,680 there's been changes in leadership over there. And I think this didn't make it into the article, 313 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,000 but when I was talking to Davy Gardner, we both agreed, like anybody who tells you that they 314 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,840 know the future of audio probably does not know. Like nobody knows right now. I think we are in the 315 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:45,520 let's figure it out phase of this commercial part of this industry. 316 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,960 So let's figure out where you're going next then because you might not figure out the whole industry, 317 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:57,120 but where does Rebecca go next? What's for you? You're an award-winning editor and producer. So 318 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,160 have you checked your inbox? That's the question. 319 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:07,200 So that is a very great question. And I'm being very honest when I say part of writing that Vanity 320 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:14,160 Fair article is me trying to out loud, figure that out for myself in hopes that other people will 321 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:20,880 feel seen in my doing that. Like I don't really know where I've landed is I've always loved 322 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,000 the craft and that's always been the thing that's felt most fulfilling. My favorite job I've ever 323 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,840 done still remains reporting from the basement of Vermont Public Radio, even though that place 324 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:38,000 wasn't right for me. I'd like to get to a place where I can do more of that. I'd like to get funding 325 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:44,640 for my own show. I'd like to do more writing. I'd like to help other people make great shows. I'd 326 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,880 like to be inspired by great creators. I want to make new things. I want to be part of this 327 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:56,960 restructuring and restratatizing about like how do we make this something that values craft and 328 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:05,920 people can make a living in it and it's not blocking out non white non male creators. But I am 329 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,000 when I tell I'm figuring out day by day every morning I wake up I'm like how am I going to do 330 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:17,440 this what's the difference between my career and my craft and my ego and my finances and like all of 331 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,240 these things I'm juggling all the time I guess at the end of the day I want to make stuff and I 332 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:29,600 want that stuff to be good and any way that I can do that and pay my rent is how I want to do that. 333 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,200 And pay your rent that's the key. Now and pay your rent yeah. So look you talked about earlier 334 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:41,520 women and voices but it sounds like you may want to go from back room to front office right to be 335 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:47,040 on the mic. What area would you be interested in doing you've talked about news is that something 336 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,360 you'd want to come back into or would there be another area that we don't know about Rebecca? 337 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:59,360 That's a great question. Look I think if I look back at my work in all honesty time and time again 338 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:07,040 I'm attracted to women's stories and other marginalized people who might live and feel 339 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,120 in that spectrum like from the beginning of being in middle of nowhere Indonesia like I've 340 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,760 always been attracted to that I've always felt like there's a part of me that understands that 341 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,240 experience and wants to help make that a more visible experience in a way that people feel 342 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:25,120 excited to learn about and not lectured at. I don't know exactly what you call that I think I 343 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,680 want to do things at the intersection of news and entertainment social justice and entertainment. 344 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,800 I don't know exactly what that that looks like I'm interested in exploring the world from the 345 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:41,840 perspective of women in our current moment in culture. Okay so one of the other things she 346 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,160 talks about and I thought it was a really perceptive thing was women's voices but women's looks 347 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:53,040 video is becoming a much more dominant platform. You've talked to audio but audio and we've talked 348 00:32:53,040 --> 00:33:00,160 about the word podcast being a generic term right is video on demand YouTube is that a podcast 349 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,440 you know there's a big debate going on and I'm less worried about it because I did a show last 350 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:11,520 night with Rob Greenlee it was recorded as a video live he pushed it out to YouTube but it's also an 351 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:18,080 audio thing the editing and the construction of the presentation of the product was still done in 352 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:24,800 the same way it was just distributed into different mediums so I mean do you see yourself going into 353 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:32,240 video then maybe is that another area that you want to go into? Oh this is such a good 354 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,680 and complicated question because I think that there are some things that you can do 355 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,400 just as well by recording it and putting it on video and I think that there's some things that 356 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:50,240 you can't and I think it's important to know the distinction. I think video offers a bigger top funnel 357 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:57,760 and like why wouldn't you do that if you could do that? On the other hand I do think video can 358 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:05,040 detract from great conversation so I'll give you an example that I hope I don't get sued for sharing 359 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:17,440 but you know when we did the archetypes interview for Mariah Carey that happened over video and 360 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,120 these were these two extremely busy women that we see out in the world as these like mega glamorous 361 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:31,840 people barefoot in their homes in between putting their children to bed and I think had we said and 362 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:37,120 this has to be on video and we have to see you and the world is going to know you that would not 363 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:42,640 have been the same intimate conversation and it would have been almost impossible to produce and 364 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:48,720 so I think just a reminder to people that there is something uniquely special about voice only 365 00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:54,560 conversations that I think especially for women because there is so much pressure to do that 366 00:34:54,560 --> 00:35:01,520 but also talking to Sam Sanders for this same piece he said podcast is a service industry and 367 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,440 if that's where the audience is I guess that's where I go like if that's where the listeners 368 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,160 want me to be I guess that's where I'll be so I don't have a great answer to that I guess it's 369 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:17,440 balancing is there is something unique and special about that voice only non-physical conversation 370 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:24,240 there's an intimacy that builds and we need more audience if that's where people are listening from 371 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:30,800 why wouldn't we do that I would do it I'd have to like get over myself a little bit but yeah I 372 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,360 think the video question is so complicated I think everybody's thinking about it all the time and 373 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,200 yeah I think people are trying to work out if there's an audience that why wouldn't I go there 374 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,240 why wouldn't I yes yeah I certainly wouldn't begrudge anybody I guess what I would say is 375 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,720 don't think of it first if you want to make a podcast make the best podcast you can make 376 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:57,440 and then if it lends to video like sure of course put it on YouTube but don't make everything all 377 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:03,440 at once make the best thing with the biggest why and the most intention possible and if that does 378 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,240 include video fabulous but if not don't stretch yourself because you're not going to make a good 379 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:13,920 product at the end of the day okay fine a couple of questions sure who would you love to work with 380 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:19,440 who's that who's that one person you think you know what I could really make you better or I'd 381 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:25,600 love to just work with you who's that person okay this is like not the answer I'm most proud of 382 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,920 but it's the thing that came to mind so I'm going to tell you is Larry David I really want to make 383 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:37,280 a podcast with Larry David okay the creator Seinfeld and Curve Your Enthusiasm but the truth is I 384 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:45,360 want to work with people who are making cool stuff I've heard there there is great stuff out there I 385 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:51,040 was just recommended the podcast classy which I'm going to mispronounce his last name but it's a 386 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:56,240 reporter named Jonathan and he makes great stuff like I want to make stuff with somebody who's gonna 387 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,600 make my stuff better make me think differently challenge me you know like that's part of why I 388 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,720 put the bit in my article of iriglass pushing back on me because I like that I want somebody to be 389 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:10,720 like you can be smarter you can be tighter you can get better voices you can think of things 390 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:16,160 differently so I don't know if it's a specific person as much as anybody who wants to make 391 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:21,120 great stuff and can make me better oh and then my other answer is if Greta Gerwig is listening 392 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:28,160 and she ever wants to make a podcast a narrative podcast series call me immediately excellent okay 393 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:34,400 last one what are you listening to currently good question so like I said I just started 394 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:40,160 listening to this podcast classy which is very good it's a really smart conversation about class 395 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:45,840 and how we interact with it and done very creatively I recently loved a podcast called 396 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:51,120 you didn't see nothing I don't know if you've heard this I'm the worst person to ask I listen to 397 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:57,120 technology and business only I don't read books like novels I only read technical manuals I'm a 398 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:04,160 really dull typical male so no got it yeah I'm the opposite I'm like I love novels I love think 399 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:11,440 pieces I'm a typical dork in that way but you didn't see nothing it was really good it was part 400 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:19,680 memoir part true crime about a beating that happened in Chicago from a white kid to a black kid 401 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:26,080 that then became sort of like a poster story for race relations I say this in quotes in the 90s 402 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:31,680 and this person who was involved in it rediscovering it and it was so good and something that I think 403 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:37,280 is really interesting worth noting is it was co-produced or financed by Universal and I was 404 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:44,160 like hmm okay so movie studios have arms now that are run by their heads of IP and acquisitions 405 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:51,280 that are funding to make podcasts and it was great it was an exceptionally good podcast 406 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:58,640 and that made me feel excited about the future there is life after love for audio for sure 407 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,400 and it's coming from somewhere and this was one of the places where I felt hope where I was like 408 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:10,240 this is a classically great piece of journalism and entertainment and highly well produced and 409 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:16,640 interesting voices that was clearly well financed by a less than obvious benefactor yeah I think 410 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:22,320 we're seeing Netflix to appear these IP podcasts and a couple of other big network platforms do it 411 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,200 I think it's a good testing grad is there an audience can we build up a pre-hype etc etc 412 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,200 there's a better way maybe sometimes than going out with a cold film trying to then 413 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:38,160 build an audience rather than save well also podcasts I mean we crashed on Apple and the 414 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:46,640 dropout on Hulu were both almost verbatim taken from their podcast IP origins and those podcasts 415 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,200 had episodes already built out they had cliffhangers they had developed characters like 416 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:58,000 in a podcast they're so much closer to a screenplay that's ready for the visual than perhaps 417 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:04,960 an article or some of the other IP origin so I think it's a great idea everybody Rebecca thank 418 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,960 you so much for your time it's been brilliant talking to you finally we tried to do this for a 419 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,600 few years finally did it it's been a pleasure an absolute pleasure thank you so much for having 420 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:19,120 and look where can people find you if they need to get out of you well you can look at my website 421 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:27,280 which is revsays.com our ebzsays.com and all of my social media follows those same things and I 422 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:33,760 really am somebody who I answer my messages I want to hear from you I want to work as much with the 423 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:40,720 person ahead of me as the person who's coming up behind me because I think young people who maybe 424 00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:46,240 aren't getting the funding still have great ideas and great talent so yeah reach out. I did it was 425 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:49,600 amazing it was one o'clock in the morning in my kitchen I reached out to you and you answered 426 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,320 it's pretty quick with that. Ruth is in the living and that's why you're here. 427 00:40:54,320 --> 00:41:01,120 Rebecca thank you so much and look if you're an LA podcast movement in 24 I don't know if you'll be 428 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:06,560 there but if you are love to catch up with you. Oh absolutely thank you so so much for having me. 429 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:26,800 Pleasure.