Oh, I'm excited. I got Marianne Bachynski on
the show today, and we are going to be talking
about how purpose -driven leaders thrive when
everything is changing. And we're in a mode of
uncertainty right now. This is connecting LinkedIn
and StreamYard and doing all those things. Marianne
is leading by example today in relation to this,
as she has done for her career. So Marianne,
thank you so much for joining me on Vision Pros
Live. It's great to be here. It is. We had a
good laugh or we were talking about getting ready
for the show and and we're talking about dress
and attire. I won't go into that, but we're having
some fun. And so she wrote this book called Fit
for Uncertainty. And I think that's where we're
going to start is what does that actually mean?
And those of you who are listening in, you know,
I think it's great to take a breath and kind
of meditate on this subject because I noticed
that when I was evaluating. What does it mean
to like being fit for uncertainty? I started
to fall into the fear of the unknown a little
bit. And I don't do that. Like that's not my
natural state until I realized, wait, maybe it
kind of is weird. Like our instincts are so powerful.
So I, you know, I was like, well, wait, it kind
of even makes me lose sight of purpose and clarity
and impact just to think about. the uncertainty.
And so we're going to learn some amazing things
from Marianne about how do we get re -centered.
So I had to take a breath and re -center myself
and think through, okay, how can I make sure
that when I'm presented with uncertainty, I don't
lose sight of my purpose, clarity, and my impact.
So without further ado, what does it mean, Marianne,
to be fit for uncertainty to you? Well, to step
back and put a little bit in context, I've had
a career in technology. I've been a CIO in a
number of businesses in financial services, and
I've had pretty much of a whirlwind career doing
a lot of transformation, a lot of innovation
situations where we were doing things under incredible
time pressure that we had never done before.
And really, you know, striving to sort of break
through to new ways of acting, leveraging new
technology, creating and supporting new businesses
on behalf of our clients. And the world we live
in today has just really exponentially created
that environment and made it the new normal.
The idea behind the book was really to share
some of those experiences, but also to really
look at and step back how you make a lot of the
actions you need through uncertainty and what
you need to solve very complex problems, what
you need to move forward even when the path is
unclear. How do you make those situations repeatable,
habit? and really second nature so that they're
not so overwhelming? And how do we help people
that are really just stressed in dealing with
all the noise? And where do you start to get
the signal? Oh my goodness. And the potential
for all of that to have sped up and sped up and
sped up is I think really, really, really high
given AI. There's so many changes taking place
right now. And so it can be very hard to deal
with and it can mess with our emotions. It can
mess with our ability, our lifestyles, et cetera.
We all see it with the amount of notifications
that we get and the fact that most people have
these like glued to their hand and magnetically
in front of their face. It's weird. But yes,
it's a reality that we deal with. And for those
of you listening, I'm talking about cell phones
um you know the one you're probably looking at
right now okay so there's a time and a place
there's a time this is the time and place okay
marianne back to your credentials i want to highlight
something that i think most people may overlook
um for the companies that you've worked with
um what's the longest standing tenure you've
had with one of the companies you worked with
how many years 23. Holy crap. Okay. So that's
freaking awesome. And now here's why this quantifies
and qualifies Marianne so much, my friends. 96
% of businesses lose within 10 years. I mean,
they're out of business. They're gone. It is
so rare for companies to make it past the 10
-year mark. This company she was with, she was
with for 23 years. And that to me, like it would
be different if Marianne spent a career. jumping
jumping jumping jumping jumping different different
companies sure we would still learn a ton about
changes and evolutions and transformations but
the fact that she also has at least one of those
companies that has been around for more than
20 years tells us that the depth of what she's
able to share with us is something that is is
for me it's highly respectable it's like okay
that's a model i want to take a look at so one
one other weird question for you marianne uh
in these environments did you did you work under
the confines or rather that's not fair with the,
with the authority and operational systems of
waterfall and scrum? Did you get, did you tell
me about your experience with those systems or
did you guys like never care about those things?
Oh yeah. I mean, I'm old enough that, you know,
that waterfall was kind of the way, you know,
and then obviously scrum we moved to. And I think
what's interesting with that, you know, waterfall
is very, do heavy analysis up front which i'm
a big buyer of you know really out of of why
and what before you jump to how um but it was
linear right and and then you know scrum people
thought oh this is terrific we don't have to
do the analysis we don't have to document we
just go go and then we throw it in and you know
if it blows up it blows up and nothing really
could be further from the truth and it's sort
of an interesting thing because if you The reality
is the faster you move, the more formality you
need. And you're really just doing the whole
life cycle multiple times, iterating multiple
times through that process. So you better be
good at it. But I think also I've always seen
those types of methodologies as a guideline.
And I have always adapted. my own style and my
team's style and how we want to approach things
because, um, you know, that there's, there's
comfort in, in, uh, definition that can be very
misleading. We have our status meetings, we have
our Gantt charts, we have our, this, we have
our, that, you know, what could go wrong. And,
um, I, I have always been very anti status. Because
not to say you don't need to have touch points,
but the focus of them has to be on what the problems
that need to be solved are and what the decisions
that need to be made are not the green stuff
that's done. And also the focus has to be on
being transparent of what's really going on.
And, you know, that sort of sits outside of this
sort of formal project management lifecycle,
because to me, you really have to. always be
looking proactively about uh plausible problems
and you know in in places where you need to pivot
and the ability to address the problem before
it happens because if you don't tell people what's
going on and then it happens it's too late um
you know so that whole thing i mean i guess i'm
i'm a a hybrid person who takes some of those
classic project management things, but in practice,
you have to be much more agile. and are you saying
that you take the best of the principles of all
concepts and use them for that isn't that just
wise um i i love that visionaries the rest of
you again it's it's not about fitting into one
box as much as seeing because they're not boxes
but they are opportunities to see what can learn
from each again ai can do a great job of also
helping you break down these concepts if you're
new to them you can ask and say like hey can
you translate what marianne and jackson just
said um and figure out what i need to use to
to apply for my growth that's really what This
is all about visionaries. So those of you in
the upper echelon of like, you understood what
we just talked about. You now know you have a
phenomenal person you go consult with about what
is Marianne seen on both sides of the spectrum.
So Marianne, let's go back to. And one other
comment I would say, I think this thing that
people lose sight of is process is not the product.
You might have this great process, but you fail,
right? that's not to be confused with the product
and the outcome you're after anyway. Huge. No,
I think it's, I, I can think it's very painful
statement you just made. Thank you. We've had
a long way. So Marianne, let's go back to that
question I asked in the beginning, then I think
we're ready for it. So what does it mean to be
fit for uncertainty? Well, again, I use the word
fit because I think it's mental, physical, spiritual
being, you know, attitude. It's all of those
things. And as we know, it's much easier to fall
out of shape than to get in shape. So it's a
discipline around, you know, having practices
and habits of how you work. How do you approach
a problem? in solving it? How do you interact
with people? How do you collaborate? How do you
get information? How do you distill that information?
And you have to have an attitude that is positive
and that you believe that you can conquer whatever
you're trying to conquer. You know, you also
have to have the behavioral skills, the communication
skills to Work with people and come up with the
collective intelligence. And if you can't communicate,
you could be the great technologist of the world.
But if you can't communicate, you're not going
to succeed. And, you know, then there is the
technical skill being whatever your skill is.
It doesn't have to be technology, technology,
but you're technically what your skill is. So
there's three kind of components that have to
work together, which is this about being a human
being, really. There's nothing magical here.
Right. But but it's about giving the attention
to all of those things because they're all double
down on that. There is something magical. It's
the results. And I'm going to tie it right back
to what you said about this, because you said
you and you you put this in my mind the last
time we talked. But now it clicked for me in
a way where I think I'll be able to permanently
remember that fit for uncertainty is about exercising.
and uncertainty and exercising in preparation
for it. And that's again, why you chose that
word. And I'm looking at that like, wow, you
basically just gave away the entire secret of
what we're going to talk about. But my friends,
if just because I know that I'm supposed to exercise
my body, if I don't have a great plan. Right.
And I only exercise one muscle. I might have
a bicep that's massive, but I will have a body
that's that's distorted and I won't have the
health that I need. And so we're going to reveal
more practical secrets. But I love that concept
because you've just empowered me and the world
with the ability to realize that, hey, look,
even if you just go about the basics, you know,
and figure out what the basics are in in health.
Go walk 10 ,000 steps. Go do 100 pushups per
day. You know, like you do those two things and
you eat moderately, like most of us are going
to have a pretty healthy life with just those
three steps. Drink lots of water, right? A lot
of fourth. There you go. Most people would be
healthy if you just do those things. And so we're
going to talk about what can we practically apply
in order for us to be ready for uncertainty and
see it more as an opportunity rather than to
fear the unknown. And so we're going to conquer
our fear of the unknown. by recognizing the opportunity
uncertainty. We're going to come right back.
I want to gather my thoughts a little bit. I
want to get a little drink of water myself. And
we're going to dive in a little bit further about
everything we can. We're going to extract as
much as I can from Marianne. So Marianne, be
ready for me to extract as much as possible when
we come back. All right. Welcome in to Vision
Pros Live with Jackson Callum. I'm your show
host. We'll be doing interviews for visionary
entrepreneurs and guest leaders who are building
fantastic visions out there. Hey, what's up,
everybody? Welcome into this live broadcast of
Vision Pros Live. I'm your show host, Jackson
Callum, founder and CEO of First Class Business.
And I'm super excited to have Marianne Byszynski
on the show today because she just brings a world
of depth. And every time I get a guest like this,
I get to dive in. It's like being given free,
amazing consultation that I don't have to pay
for. Like, how cool is that? And here she is
helping us with understanding how purpose -driven
leaders thrive. even when everything is changing
and the world is changing all around us and it
can be disrupting for. our team members. It can
be disrupted to our market. It can create uncertainty
within ourselves and our families and beyond.
And really, I think what I've seen is leaders
that are phenomenal tend to bring a matter of
a feeling of peace, a feeling of calm, a feeling
of like, hey, not only is this okay, but there's
tremendous opportunity with what we have in front
of us. And learning to see and recognize that,
again, we're going to try to pull all of that
out of Marianne in this session. And, uh, before
I do that though, I've got a few other resources
for every single one of you to talk about one
of them in relation to uncertainty. I can't recommend
highly enough journey to wellness and Dr. Shannon
and Dr. Justin Pierce. I met them over eight
years ago. And Dr. Shannon, um, is known to be
kind of a miracle worker in the. in the health
space and i've sent three people to her that
i can remember i think a fourth but i know that
there's three people that i sent her every single
one had an illness that they were told wasn't
necessarily incurable was something they were
going to deal with for life though and they didn't
feel satisfactory with the opportunities with
the uh the doctors and the solutions they had
met before after talking to dr shan i talked
to every single one of them every single one
of them raved and we're like oh my gosh like
she's changing my life what a miracle and it's
not magic she does the right testing she knows
what testing to order and how to put people on
the right track and she's been through some serious
health challenges herself as well so again i
can't recommend it enough for those of you who
are going through health challenges or you know
somebody who is i recommend checking out and
learning from them what they're up to on the
next one practice makes permanent practice makes
permanent as a company that has been recently
developed by jennifer reed that doesn't mean
she's new to what she does in fact jennifer reeds
worked at the irs for more than 20 years i know
some of you are going to turn the show off right
now because i said that but what i want you to
think about is realizing that the bureaucracy
she probably has to deal with the um culture
i personally i don't think i ever want to see
the irs um but she's in there day after day working
with people and what she's done is she's become
a transformational eq and sq specialist it's
emotional intelligence and spiritual intelligence
and Not only has she trained in an environment
that, again, I've heard horror stories about,
she's trained in that environment, but she's
also has a personal story that if you ask her
about, please have your tissue box with you.
You're going to need it. She has every reason
for wanting to help. every single person on earth
understand the value of emotional intelligence
um i actually became a great friend of mine over
the last six months if you're in a position where
you want to improve your culture improve your
revenues improve your results i highly recommend
talking to jennifer reed and then there's the
water project the water project is something
that is near and dear to my heart it took a lot
of meditation to figure that out because i've
always had access to clean water i've never had
issue with. I'm down in Ecuador right now on
a humanitarian trip. And again, never been thirsty
in my life. I'm without water right now. I wish
I had some. But to prove my point here, if you
look at these pictures, these kids are pulling
water from who knows where. They have to leave
school in order to go get water, which is dangerous
by themselves. Their parents have to leave work
to go get water, to wash clothes, to... boil
water to make food, et cetera. And I realized
that there's millions of people out there who
don't have access to something that is just so
essential and so easy for us. And the next picture
you're about to see, these kids are celebrating
water with more vigor than my kids celebrate
Christmas day. It's a very humbling reality.
So I don't mean to bring you down as much as
help you realize that you actually get to pick
a community. through the water project. Once
you donate $10 to it or however much you're going
to donate, you actually get to see that project
come to fruition. The water project sends you
evidence of what they built, whether it's a sand
dam or a borehole well. And I just, I love the
transparency that they create. So my secondary
hope is if you don't have the money to financially
give back, that you decide to share this with
a friend or family member. And that could be
through social media posts, but I recommend looking
at a project and then bringing it up over dinner.
over lunch, over breakfast with somebody and
just talking to them about it and saying, you
know, what do you think about this? You might
be the catalyst for inspiring somebody to fund
a dozen of these projects. You never know how
far the ripple effect of your own good will go.
And so my friends, there's 8 billion people out
there who need a lot of help. If there's another
cause that inspires you, my last request is drop
that in the comments so that I can go. And I
can look and see what that causes. I will personally
take a look at every single one of those comments
that we get and see if there's a way that we
can support it or spread the word for it. And
without further ado, we're going back to helping
every single one of you. And so Marianne Byszynski,
again, we're going to be talking about on how
to be fit for uncertainty. Marianne, you ready
to tear it up with me? I'm ready. All right,
let's get it. I'm excited. So we talked about
what it means to be fit for uncertainty and how
exercise, right, being able to do the exercises
necessary so that we are well prepared for uncertainty
is a big part of that. Let's dive into how purpose
driven leaders or how purpose driven leadership
creates stability during change. I alluded to
a little bit before we started talking, but how
does purpose driven leadership have an effect
on stability and overcoming uncertainty? in your
eyes well the purpose is clarity right um and
i think through uncertainty clarity is the the
what you're pursuing um most mostly of all and
um i think also being calm through Through stress
and through pressure. And the only way you can,
you know, when I first started at Morgan Stanley,
I was like, wow, this is really insane. I have
to build a way to be in this for the long haul.
Otherwise, I'm going to burn out. And that's
where I kind of developed this, which I think
is a great word, exercise your mind, your body
and your spirit every day. Right. And have that
discipline over each of those components because
they all matter. And I think if you as a leader
can show that calm, we're going to get through
this, we're going to do it together, and we're
going to succeed, right? It brings some stability
to the situation. And then also, you really need
to, again, be able to work through. and find
the clarity. And they have to make that repeatable.
I mean, I always used to be remark on the fact
that when we would do a project, there would
be this overly optimistic approach that, you
know, we were green until we were amber until
we were red because we weren't managing it correctly.
Why are we, why are we planning? for everything
to go 100 % perfectly. It's just stupidity. Yes,
it is. And so, you know, that's the whole thing
where you have to be looking forward and for
obstacles and roadblocks. And the same note,
if you have a production problem with technology,
right, the system's down, something's happening,
something's failing, why are we starting with
this, like, oh, my God, the world is ending,
like we've never been before? We've been here
before. We know how to do this. Right. We know
how to work through this and what the steps we
should take. And again, it's really trying to
bring that that habit is the best word to say
it in an approach that, you know, makes things
indigestible chunks that you can't get your arms
around and allows you to pace yourself to get
to the finish line because. constantly in chaos
and you're constantly churning and you're constantly
starting from scratch every time, you know, it's
exhausting. Huge. You inspired me with your rhetorical
question, by the way, to answer the rhetorical
question. And so there's two realities here.
You asked the question. why do we plan for things
to go perfectly? And the point of it, guys, just
stop doing it, right? That's the bigger point.
Like, you know, make sure that you're aware.
But I think it's important too for us to recognize
the why so we can condition ourselves not to
fall victim of it. And I'm going to blame, I'm
going to put it square on my hypothesis, expectation.
Expectation is the root of all heartache. I love
William Shakespeare's quote about it. When I
learned that, it broke my heart to realize that
it had already been breaking my heart. for most
of my life. I expected things to turn out a certain
way. And so as young entrepreneurs, especially,
and those of you, when I see entrepreneurs, anybody
who has a business that's less than five years
old, even if you've done it multiple times, you're
probably still in that mindset of like, oh my
gosh, we have to hit our quarterly expectations
or advice. Esperanza, aspirations, hope, those
are the virtues. And so if we can settle our
expectations down. and realize that those are
the bonuses in life and build based on the principles,
then we can do, we can more pragmatically help
our team realize too, like, hey, it's okay that
we're not planning for perfection. We're aware
of what perfection could look like. That'd be
awesome. But we also need more pragmatic. And
I think more companies would make it to the 10
-year mark in a thriving process if we would
settle down with our expectations and allow for
grace in the process. So super wise. uh words
marion i absolutely love that now let's go into
the next topic we always come back but i want
to make sure we cover everything for for the
audience that we promised so the mindset shifts
that leaders must make in fast -moving environments
i came up with one of my own but what what mindset
shifts do leaders we also just talked about moving
from expectations to aspirations but what mindset
shifts are required or helpful in terms of thriving
through an uncertainty Well, I think everything
has to be looked at. It's not one and done kind
of thing. It's not that you set the plan and
then you go and you don't change the plan ever.
You have a strategy and then you go and you never
change the strategy. You have the people in place
and the roles they're in and you never move them
around or you never help them when they're failing.
You know, it's again, it's the ability to iterate
and iterate and iterate and experiment, really.
You have to continue to pivot and you have to
be adaptive. That's why there's so much focus
on adaptive leadership now, because it's really
table stakes and mandatory in the world we live
in. A colleague of mine, Steve Davis, will tell
you, you need adaptive IQ. Emotional EQ, adaptive
EQ. IQ, you need a lot of Qs in your life. True.
that adaptive piece is really, really the most
critical. So you have to, again, look at things
that, you know, that you're comfortable with
are not ever really complete. Building a culture
is, is a continuous journey as an example, you
know, and you're going to be constantly having
to make changes, whether they're resources, adding
them or changing them or, you know, or, or it's,
it's. What's included in the project? What can
be done by this date? Or was just physically
impossible? You know, like, so why are we pretending?
I mean, really? You know, and it's, you know,
there's a natural sort of avoidance mechanisms
that we all have, right? Well, I'll keep doing
the little. see tasks and, and, and not free
myself up to, to go after that big, ugly a task
that I'm scared of, you know, I'm going to resist
this project. I don't believe in it and it's
against my morals or whatever. And I'm not going
to engage or what, you know, whatever it is,
people have these things where they, they have
coping mechanisms for change and they don't,
they won't really embrace it. Right. And so that
again is, it's really a mindset of. How are we
going to deal with this? Not am I going to deal
with it or, you know, am I going to avoid it
or whatever and hope it goes away? It's not going
away. Yeah, absolutely. Earlier, you talked about
comfort, which can be a good thing, but oftentimes,
especially when it comes to growth, you know,
it's like the enemy of growth. You get in your
comfort zone. Right. And now you talked about
coping mechanisms. Most of the time, those are
instinctual. or habitual. And there are things
that we can retrain. Some of the, some of the
words that came to mind that we haven't used
yet related to the mindset you're talking about
are fluidity, right? You talked a little bit
about rigidness, right. And being like overly
focused or maybe, and I've been, I've been dealing
with over -functioning lately. I've been dealing
with it. Finally, I am an over -functioning individual,
like all the time I have been for most of my
life. And so as I learned about it, I realized
that I could do exercises to to make myself turn
off at 70 percent um right that's something that
chachi bt hooked me up with and i was like man
it's changed everything all the results have
gotten better as i've calmed my butt down um
you know and gotten out of the way of things
so fluidity is a big one another one that i've
heard a lot from different mentors and gurus
is is the flow like a river um you know and be
able to be because fluidity gives you more than
just flexibility. And it allows you to really
accept things as they come and kind of move with
it. So those are two things that you inspired
out of me. The one that I thought of in terms
of mindset that I'm going to give a huge shout
out to my coach, my main coach, Fletcher Ellingson.
That guy, I have never met a coach as great as
Fletcher. I've met some phenomenal coaches. His
big word is curiosity and creativity. It's remaining
curious. And I got to give a shout out to John
Jaramillo as well. The book leads podcast he
was on recently. And he said, I will die on curiosity
as the key. And so yesterday to call myself out,
I butchered a meeting badly. And my two colleagues.
I could feel it was palpable, the air of just
how awful the meeting went. And, you know, the
underlying feeling was humiliation. And why did
that occur? Because instead of training well
with the team and being curious about their inputs,
I began to cut off their inputs and I began to
put on a persona of condescension. It killed
everything. It killed the mood. It killed the
process. It left me alone in the reality. And
it created an environment where our day kind
of suffered. We found ways to make it better.
But that night, I wrote a big apology note to
two people who matter the most to me in the world.
And it's not because I wanted to forget about
curiosity. wasn't because i wanted uncertainty
to lead me to to feel frustrated it's just because
it happens to us as human beings and so if we
as a as a as human beings as leaders can recognize
and remember that our best is not it's not good
to control it's not good to condescend It can
open doors. It can make everybody feel better
if we will dive into being curious as well. So
that's another mindset. And you can't be curious
if you're rigid. So those are some of the, we'll
transition to practical insights for leading
teams through ambiguity and transition, some
of which we've talked about. We're just going
to keep pouring onto this. So Marianne, what
are your thoughts on that? Feel free to dive
into your own examples as well. I want to hear
all about practical insights. Well, I mean, you
know, I think I've mentioned in the past, curiosity
is the number one trait I look for when I interview
people because it is the foundation for ideation,
for innovation, for, you know, everything, right?
For analyzing situations. And you have to have
that. And what does curiosity imply? Well, it
implies that, you know, you're learning all the
time you're never done and you have to be comfortable
with the fact that there's going to be you know
surprises along the way there's going to be challenges
along the way but it's okay you know and you're
and you're going to get through it i mean the
the control part is just a death nail i mean
yes where the whole command and control is uh
you know if if you're called on the carpet to
come in and present your status. And like you
said, the expectation is that everything needs
to go well and you need to make me look good.
You know, that's not open and honest dialogue.
It doesn't breathe transparency. It doesn't breathe
trust. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't keep
people. up front about what's really going on
so you just the whole thing falls apart well
it's a it's a strong symptom and sign a big red
flag of of survival mode as well right somebody
who is controlling is like that's that's what
you try to do when you're surviving um so And
I think one of the travesties of, you know, CEOs
last now 18 months or something crazy, you know,
whatever. It's been two years, three years now.
It's like a minute. And so senior management
tends to flip over all the time. And one of the
worst things that people do is say, I'm just
going to ride this guy out and hopefully I'll
make it, you know, I'll survive till the next
one. And this person has these quirks and I'll
deal with it. But that's just so depressing.
It's just so far from making a difference. And
you can't do transformation unless you have that
kind of recognition that you need to change,
that you want to change, that you're going to
try to change. And now your business model has
to keep evolving or else you're going out of
business. So it's not, again, it's not aspirational
anymore. You're not going to be able to compete.
Yep, exactly. So I got to go back to this thought
you placed because now it really struck me and
I'm like, cool, I can't wait for how I can apply
this. You said curiosity is the number one trait
that you look for when interviewing. How do you
look for it? What are the secrets? Is there certain
questions that you ask or certain pieces that
you pick up on curiosity? I'm super intrigued.
Well, sometimes, you know, when you ask the angel
question, tell me about yourself, right? What
do they focus on? Why are you in the work that
you do? Do you like that? Or, you know, what
makes you tick kind of thing? Why are you interested
in working at this company, XYZ? And what about
this position attracts you? How do you make decisions
is a big one. You know, really the heartbeat
of any sort of organization is decision -making,
right? And so how do you go about making progress
and making decisions and working through problems
and how do you solve problems? Nice. Those are
really good questions. Okay. Those two especially
really open it up for me. I can see you'll tell
me about yourself. um you know can also allude
to it but i i would have to look at chat gbt
and be like hey how do i find how do i see signs
of curiosity um through the question uh through
an interview when i ask somebody to tell me about
themselves but i can also see how how do you
make decisions and how do you solve problems
are direct correlations um i i'll i'll venture
to guess and you correct me if i'm wrong please
um because these secrets are super valuable um
that if the interviewee is asking a lot of good
questions. That's also a really good sign that
they have a curious personality. So, you know,
I don't think there's a right or wrong on this
visionaries, but I am curious about your perspective,
Marianne. How many questions that they have are
too much, you know, or like, is it okay that
they open up and ask a lot of questions in your
experience and your cultures? Has that been something
that. Y 'all are really grateful for when they
come in with like a hundred questions or is there
like, what's the etiquette on asking questions
as an interviewee? I think people have gotten
better at asking questions. I think historically
they didn't ask enough questions because it was,
you know, you're, you're going to be asked the
questions. You knew the interviewee, not the
interviewer. So, you know, I think, I think now
there's a lot more. focused on behavioral and
not just your skill set of whatever the job is
so you know there is there does tend to be uh
more back and forth and again have they looked
into what the company does have they you know
do they ask you questions like what is the culture
of this company how do you to me the one of the
best questions to ask is how do you like working
here you know i always ask that question because
i'd like and i'm you know when i'm When I'm interviewing
for a role, I want to know what the place is
like, not just what they do. So you're saying
the interviewee asking you as the interviewer,
how do you like working here? What do you like
about working here as well would be a similar
question. Because that says to me that culture
matters to them. Absolutely. And by the way,
if you guys are testing this for the first time
and you go into a place and the person you ask
that to is in shock or makes you feel bad for
asking it, don't feel bad. It's because their
culture sucks. I can almost guarantee that. I
don't really want to tell you that in the interview
because they need you to come in and do this
work. That's cool. When did you, if you can pinpoint
it somewhat, what era? Did you start to notice
the transition to where interviewees started
to gain confidence? Because I remember being
trained on this in 2000, would have been like
2009 or 10, probably. I was looking for jobs
back then. And I went through a training. By
the way, those of you listening, Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter -day Saints has a phenomenal
free job. training and job like coaching program
um and so i highly recommend it they taught me
how to negotiate salaries um they taught me how
to ask questions they taught me the etiquette
of going through the experience which was extremely
enlightening and and very much helped me feel
safer in kind of the uncertain environment like
what the heck do you do in an interview um and
so i i got i got blessed with learning about
that right from the get -go um Where did you
see the change take place? Well, I think it's
generational. I think when, with the Facebooks
and the big tech companies coming in and they,
you know, they focus, they do have this constant
two different kinds of interviews, a tech one
where you're programming, whatever you're doing,
and then a behavioral one. And that, and I think
when the whole discussion about wellbeing and
that those generations have demanded that, right?
Yes, we have. yeah i mean i'm too i'm like we
never had well -being and that was just you know
give me a break right Tough enough. Yeah, exactly.
Blue collar. You know, I worked in the oil field
too with my dad before that. And that's what
really helped me. So like, uh -uh, no, no, no,
we're leading the cause. Um, you know, this,
this sucks. Um, and so, yeah, we, we, I definitely,
and we had options, you know, we had cars, we
had the internet. Um, my brother wanted to work
at Google, my, my stepbrother. And, you know,
and, and he knew he wanted to work with us. He's
like, we get, you get free lunch. They have a
slide. They do your laundry. They have restaurants
on campus that you can eat at. 20 % off time
to do what you want. You're right. Those made
some massive, massive transitions. If you haven't
paid attention to the transitions, get with the
program. Come and join us. It's way more fun
this way. These companies have become some of
the biggest, most successful companies in the
entire world. It's not an accident. you know,
that, that, that took place and that those, those
realities existed. So Marianne, as we get ready
to wrap up, we, what, you know, let's, let's
use a couple more minutes on more more practical
insights for leaders who want to step with, again,
not, not blind faith wise, but like more practically
into. How do we how do we lead during uncertainty,
ambiguity? We didn't really talk about that in
transition. So maybe we focus on those two angles.
But if something else hits you as inspiration
wise, like feel free to reveal. Well, I again,
I think I focus as much on what could go wrong
than what can go right. Right. If not more. And
again, I think it's again, it's staying ahead
of it and always thinking. what do we need to
be doing differently? Or what do we need to change?
Or, you know, or even sort of the classic situation
where people feel that they're being asked to
do something that's just not achievable. And,
you know, if you can then say, hey, look, we're
not going to be able to do this for you. But
we could do, you know, we can't do one through
five. But help us figure out and tell us your
priorities because we could do one, two, and
three. Or three of the five, right? And so if,
you know, those kinds of things where you can
actually walk it back and figure out, okay, then
what, you know, what's the minimal viable outcome
that we can, that will really still serve the
business and not, you know, that where in my
case, where tech is an obstacle to growth. We
don't want to be that, right? But to just sort
of blindly march ahead when you know that you're
sinking. And again, you know, that's where the
culture is so important. That's where communication
is so important. And really knowing what's going
on and figuring out, okay, how can we get the
best result? If we can't necessarily get the
result that we had started out to do, how can
we get the best? And what is the most, I think
the other thing too that happens is people drift,
right? They start doing, prioritization is key.
constantly prioritize and reprioritize, making
sure that every single person is working on the
top three, four priorities, right? That's it.
Don't be doing this little shit all over the
place. Yes. You know, people kind of drift away
and whatever. And if they don't have a clear
understanding of the mission and where we're
going and they don't understand that, you know,
like I go back to the whole COVID example, every
single person was up, was working on getting
people able to work remotely. And it happened
in two weeks around the whole entire world. Unbelievable.
Right. There was no. It was huge. I was so happy.
I had worked from home since 2010. And so when
that happened, you know, don't get me wrong.
I understand the suffering that people went through
and all that. But on the silver lining of it,
I was like, oh, my gosh, people will finally
understand me. They can understand my lifestyle
and what it is. And so, yeah, I was a huge. It
really woke the world up and changed, transformed
cultures. But it was it created innovation because
there was total clarity. Everybody had one priority.
That was the only priority, you know, and flattened
the table, do everything we can to make this
work. We don't have a we don't have a plan B.
I will say that we are still suffering the consequences
from this. And I love what you talked about.
You talked about the worst case scenarios, ultimately.
That's kind of what I caught out of what you
said is be prepared for the difficulties. And
I have found that in my life, that's also one
thing that separates great leaders from people
who don't lead. And when I talk to people who
are not leaders about worst case scenarios, there's
like a fear and like, what are you doing? Why
are you so negative? And I'm an optimistic realist.
So it's not about being gloom and doom. It's
about being a realist. That's right. practical.
And so leaders mapping out what the worst case
scenario looks like, it prepares you for when
it happens. You are that certain voice. You are
the one who's like, it's okay. I know. And like
Marianne said, learning, I love that. Learning
how to lean into, okay. We couldn't get exactly
what we wanted out of this, but what's the best
thing we can get? That separates you from the
majority of people in the world that I see like,
oh, no, everything's wrong. Now I have to just
crush life altogether, you know, rather than,
again, enjoying what's what's possibly grateful.
And so I'll go back to Fletcher, who's also taught
me a lot about workability. And that's what I
heard you talk about, too, Marianne. It's like
if you got I love that scenario five, because
that's one of those exact scenarios. It's like
negotiation is all about trying to find what's
workable. for both parties. Um, you know, if
you can, if you can keep your cool and lead with
that mindset, then oftentimes the compromise
turns into what's necessary to produce the best
possible results. And we don't have to frown
and cry and hate life just because we didn't
get everything we wanted out of it. I think that's
something we're supposed to learn. We're like
two or three. Um, and so it's, it's good that
we're revisiting this, um, in decades, two, three,
four, five, and six, let's continue to lean into
it. So, um, the. There was one other big thing
that you hit that I wanted to circle back to.
If you have a pressing thought, Marianne, this
is the time. Run with it. No, again, I guess
I just would repeat that every day, exercise
spiritually, mentally, and physically, and you
can't go wrong. It really provides incredible
clarity. and calmness and gratitude. Thank you.
You inspired me. Marianne, this is for you, for
your audience, for my audience, for all of us.
I'm so glad you talked about the reality of COVID.
And I've worked virtually since 2010, as I mentioned.
Scarier times are ahead for most of most corporations
that are still practicing. You guys are screwed.
The ones who are closing down work from home,
you guys are freaking screwed. It is not a good
idea. That is going to limit your growth. Rather
than figuring out how do we empower people to
have a better work -life balance while still
getting results. You can do it, Elon Musk. Don't
give up, dude. I know you're the one that's pushing
everybody to get back into the office, but you
don't have to get people back in the office.
There are solutions, but you have to consult
with people who know what it's like to go past.
the fourth and the fifth year challenges that
will come up. And so we experienced it at Restaurant
Connect. We experienced it at Video Power Marketing.
But Video Power Marketing was a place where we
conquered it. We solved the challenges. There
are things that corporations can do to make sure
that results are just as phenomenal, if not better,
than what you had when people were actually working
in the office. But one of the big keys and clues
is how do you build a true virtual culture? That
is something that I do not hear talked about.
Why? Most people don't know how to do it. They've
never done it before. It sucks to figure out.
But once you've figured it out, oh my gosh, you
can change everything. So I'll plant the seed
on that. Marianne, I know you got a lot of people
out there who could benefit from it. I saw a
couple of a big restaurant chain shut down recently.
um over the other day was bahama breeze um they
got a shot all locations and now they got um
darden's gonna be replacing those locations with
other restaurants um but i if you lose if you
look at the news and you look and see every single
month who what what layoffs are occurring what
companies um you know are shrinking amazon where
there are thousand layoffs um and beyond like
it it doesn't have to be that way we can still
thrive but we have to lean into figuring out
the uncertainty associated with the work from
home or the work back in the office and how to
deal with it. So you got Marianne Bashinsky,
who's leading the way. She's got the book Fit
for Uncertainty. Go check that out on Amazon.
I highly recommend looking into it. More importantly,
I recommend connecting with this beautiful, amazing
author. She's got so much insight and decades
of wisdom. I'll be doing the same as long as
Marianne, you let me in your life. I'll be bothering
you about these opportunities and figuring it
out. If this was your last chance to talk to
an audience. of visionaries, people who are looking
to build. This was it. What would your message
be to them? I think always to remember we're
much better together than alone and everybody's
doing the best they can. i love that visionaries
thank you for doing the best that you can thanks
for joining us today uh together is better so
feel free to connect with us and if you've got
a vision that you'd like to share on the show
click in the top right corner at visionproslive
.com top right corner says be our guest click
the button it's not mysterious click to book
come and share something that's going to bless
the world we'll be happy to have you on the show
and we'll see everybody in the next episode take
care everybody marianne thank you i'll see you
behind you in just a minute bye Thank you for
being here today. I'm really happy that you tuned
in to Vision Pros Live. I'm looking forward to
seeing your reactions as these episodes continue
to move forward. This is going to get more and
more fun. We'll have more and more engagement
as well. We'll invite people to participate in
the show. And thank you for giving us your time
and attention. Have an excellent time building
out your vision and becoming a vision pro yourself.