All right. Awesome. What's up, Vision Pros? I
am super excited to have the best host I've ever
been on a show for, John Jaramillo. I was going
to say my favorite, but that puts some of my
great friends down. I don't want to do the favorites
club, but John did a phenomenal job of hosting
me. probably about a year ago on his show, The
Book Leads Podcast. The exciting news is he's
got another podcast as well that he's launched,
The Leadership Syllabus. So definitely check
those out today. We're going to be talking about
leading through uncertainty. And so many of us
have so much uncertainty around us. It could
be our own personal lives. It could be just turn
the news on and look and see what's going on.
It could be the apocalyptic weather that occurred.
I'm down in Ecuador, so my weather is kind of
nice right now, I'm not going to lie. Some of
you guys have been through some things. How do
you lead through those uncertain times? We're
going to talk about curiosity. Curiosity is a
strength that so many people overlook. My personal
coach, Fletcher Ellingson, phenomenal. Well,
one of my coaches, but he is the go -to for all
things Jackson needs, clear headspace and mindset
stuff. I've never met anybody like Fletcher,
so he's all about curiosity stories. And on how
we can lace our stories in, I've fallen into
the bad habit in some years of not necessarily
whining and being a victim, but portraying my
story in a way that makes it more about me. not
about those that i'm serving and so it's really
neat to learn like okay well there's lots of
ways we can tell our stories how do we do so
in a way that effectively leads and the human
side of leadership as well something that again
it's easy to sleep on and overlook but if if
we're not careful we can get very very far into
tactics and forget about the value of the people
who are in front of us so i'm super excited to
have john on he's also the coach of coach it
out is that a book as well john am i wrong about
that not a book not a book A lived lifestyle
and an opportunity as well. And so that's the
name of your brand, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Coach It Out, The Book Leads, and The Leadership
Syllabus. We've got three phenomenal resources
to gain from John. But as we talk, I want those
of you who are podcasters as well as visionaries,
go watch some of John's episodes. Go see how
he poses himself as a leader, how he holds himself,
how he's able to, you know, just make space for
the leaders that he's interviewing. I felt like
I was talking to Jimmy Kimmel or Jimmy Fallon,
you know, or one of the legends of late night
television as I was talking on my show. So I've
done enough talking for now. John, welcome to
Vision Pros Live, man. Jackson, thank you so
much for having me here. It's great to have you
on. It's amazing and incredible that it's been,
you know, close to a year, if not over, since
we last saw each other. I can't believe it. Time
goes too fast. And that's, again, I'm going to
go back to this leadership thing and why I wanted
to bring you on. I've been working so hard on
figuring out, okay, if I want to be a leader
at the next level, if I want to be able to help
millions of people, possibly billions of people,
I need to work on my own leadership. And part
of that means I need to lean into the leaders
that I know I can trust, the leaders that I'm
looking up to and aspiring to be like, and you're
one of those, John. leading through uncertainty
and the elements that we talked about, where
do you want to start? Wherever you want, man.
Uncertainty, wherever you take me, I'm going
to come up with something. I'm going to draw
from my past, my story, my work, and I'll meet
you wherever you want to go. I love that. And
we will go in order of what we wrote in the description.
I always want to make sure we fulfill. It's a
super important piece of this. Leadership isn't
about having all the answers. and so we just
got to see that on display by john you know he
wasn't like oh let me tell you exactly where
we're gonna go jackson um right that matt cuts
search director for google got to train uh we
were in his uh we were white combinator company
in my first startup and he said the truth i am
an expert is not somebody who knows all the answers
it's the person who's willing to go get the answers
um and so i think we're both of that type of
mindset john if leadership's not about having
all the answers Matt Cutts got a great quote
on that as well. What is leadership? What is
it about? I mean, for me, it's bringing the person
that is the best facilitator of the resources
in front of them. Whether it's people, finances,
whatever it may be, they can bring the best value
out of everything that's around them, especially
people. The best leaders I've seen, like you
said, they didn't come in with the answers. but
they were able to pick out the golden nuggets
out of the people that were working for them.
They were able to ask questions. They started
as a student. All of this sounds cliche with
everything that's written about it. I'm speaking
from experience and what I see. It's the people
that can draw the best out of the people around
them. So it's never, for me, it's always been,
and a kind of a metaphor that I give for it is
an orchestra conductor. where the paying public
is behind them but the people that are creating
are in front of them and they know when to call
on which section of the orchestra at what time
calling for more with their body language but
the attention is always here for the value going
outward so those are the people that i when i
see that play out it's just incredible because
a lot of They don't need to be seen, but when
they are seen and acknowledged and understood
for who they are, it just unlocks so much. And
again, it sounds cliche, but when you see it
happen, it's incredible to be a witness to. I
love it. And, you know, we'll move into enough
depth to make sure that we don't stay at the
cliche level. These are fundamentals. And fundamentals
are often misunderstood and misprioritized. So
I heard this recently as well from Kevin O 'Leary.
an interview i was watching a short or something
on youtube about it and he talked about his relationship
his personal relationship with steve jobs which
i didn't know he had um you know i was like okay
interesting you know i get to learn from two
giants who've been able to make worldwide impacts
and get to hear him dissect what made steve so
incredibly valuable and his point it's almost
exactly what you said john he said that steve
knew how to focus on exactly what was necessary
to be done in the very moment that it needed
to be done he was a master at being able to do
that day in and day out he said that's the exact
same reason why elon musk is as successful as
he is because he's able to focus on exactly what
it is and you added a little bit of dressing
to that which is bringing out the best in ourselves
and the leaders that that we're also working
with so this isn't just about something we can
apply to ourselves but as visionaries our role
is we're expanding the vision is that how do
we bring out the best of the other people who
are helping us build our vision so we we talked
about how curiosity humanity and the willingness
to listen play into this um let's talk about
curiosity john is that and let me also get clear
on some we both have teams did my team come up
with this description on their own um or did
we also get a lot of input from you on it I spoke
to, again, uncertainty. Your team asked me, what
should the title be? I'm like, all right, well,
Jackson invited me. What does he think the best
value is that I can bring? It's not a cop -out,
but if you invited me, there was something you
saw in me that was worth bringing. It's like,
what does he want? I said, here are the areas
that I could speak to. And then they put together
that title, which I loved right off the bat.
That's correct. And I remember because we did
that to you and I was like, man, I bet John's
visions changed a bit over the last year too.
And so we're looking at it and thinking and we're
collaborating about it and expanding. So I sometimes
forget the process that flows. I'm like, man,
I want to put John on the spot. If he didn't
say anything about curiosity, but at the same
time, there we go. We're back to the opportunity
with uncertainty. And when you've got, when you
got math, here's the other thing, guys, when.
As a visionary, you're going to find people who
are able to solve certain problems and they're
not going to have a clue about other problems.
That's life. That's just the blessing of living
and building relationships. It's the same thing
in a marriage. Next thing you know, your spouse
doesn't know how to balance a budget. Or they
find out that you don't know how to cook anything
beyond spaghetti. Those realities happen. And
so we're going to talk about our own experiences
on curiosity. And either one of us get in a pickle
where we're like. I don't know the formula to
that one. Then also as an expert, as a leader,
the opportunity to be vulnerable with your team.
Don't pretend you know how to fly the plane if
you don't know how to fly the plane. Right. That's
something you want to speak about to make sure
to protect everybody. So curiosity, John, how
does curiosity play into leadership? For me,
it's the foundation of everything. Don't come
at me with leadership lessons at all. If you
don't include curiosity as the bedrock and foundation
of leadership, I will die on that hill. There
has to be, I will die on that hill. There has
to be curiosity about yourself and other people.
If there's no curiosity, nothing else can happen
authentically. You can try to BS your way through
it, but you have to be curious. You have to develop
that curiosity. If it's not innate to you, you
can develop it because some people just don't
know. They're going through life with the script
that's handed to them. This is what a manager
looks like. This is what a supervisor looks like.
This is what a leader looks like. Okay, and then
they conform to those definitions. So a lot of
people just need to be aware to the tools that
they have within them. And curiosity is one.
But it's incredible what a launching pad it is
to ask somebody what they think and how much
they believe they can go look for. Some people
have to be introduced to it. But curiosity is
just, you can't get anywhere without it. Again,
for self -fulfillment, self -understanding, realization,
and then learning about the people around you
if you want to lead them. Because so many leaders
come in and say, this is the job description.
This is what you need to do. And maybe that person's
value is 100%, but this is where the job description
is, 45%. And if you're not curious, you can't
say to them, listen, I know this is the job description,
but I've noticed you can do this or you're good
at this or this is your wheelhouse. If you don't
have curiosity, you're leaving so much value
on the table. Huge. Now, a lot of us have curiosity,
but we end up hiding it. You know, we feel unsafe
with it. And so I want to speak to like I want
I'm just so glad I'm speaking to you today, man,
because I've been living closer and closer to
my natural, authentic curiosity and creativity.
And so the journey for me a couple a couple of
years ago, an older lady that I was working with
who is just phenomenal. And she's very humble
and she's got that childlike demeanor. um you
know like she still got the light in her eyes
and the life and you're just like man i hope
that whoever i'm with long term turns out like
her you know when we're 70 to 80 like just got
that vibe that aura and she said the key was
wonder and awe was sticking and wondering which
is an exact synonym of curiosity and creativity
and so I was able to remember like man I got
that within me and this really helps me and then
I saw the TED talk by JP Sears um if any of you
don't know the comedian JP Sears look up his
TED talk it really helped me this is actually
like three or four years ago almost before I
grew my hair out It's the reason why. Because
I was watching his TED Talk, and he talked about
how we often bottle up our authenticity in order
to fit in the society. And he talks about how
to break free of that phenomenal process. Then
I met Coach Fletcher Ellingson, and he became
a co -host of our show. And we started working
together, and then he became my coach. And he
taught me about the value of creativity and curiosity.
It's kind of like his MO. I can't wait. I hope
you guys get to do a show together, John. That
would be so phenomenal to hear you guys as calculus
teachers of curiosity and creativity talk about
what can be done with this component. So here
creativity put a new level of positivity within
me. And his formula to utilize curiosity to understand
people who are kind of coming at you or who are
kind of defensive or they're getting aggressive
with you. He uses curiosity in a way that ultimately
deflects and protects your anxiety, your fears,
your anger, all of that in tremendous capacity.
And so now you're telling me like you're going
to die on this bed of like curiosity is king.
And I'm like, I'm so ready. I'm like, okay, cool.
We get to lean further into this. So I want to
talk a little bit about that real quick. And
I'd love for you to add further context. So those
of you who are listening in, curiosity the way
that i use it thanks to fletcher he's got this
formula called poc and so if you're in a situation
where you're talking to a team member and the
conversation is difficult or maybe you're talking
to an angry client or maybe you're talking to
one of your children or a family member that's
difficult rather than reacting rather than having
the the need to respond as well and in order
to open up your ability to listen to understand
taking relationships to an entirely new level
this poc formula has helped me so much what is
it pause right instead of reacting instead of
having that emotion take over pause allow myself
to do that get present two piece pause and get
present in the moment you're safe like there's
nothing going on and then get open get open with
the situation Open yourself, realize you don't
have to clam up. You don't have to be defensive.
You don't have to react about it. Again, you
can be right there. Pause, get present, get open,
and then get curious. Get curious about what's
their angle. Where are they coming from? Why
did they end up in this situation? How are they
formulating things? And I will give one final
piece on this. He taught me to ask questions
not from the court of law standpoint. where I'm
trying to prove something or find justice. But
truly get open about why it might be. Don't assume
that you know. Don't lead the witness. And so
there's curiosity. And then he said, and finally,
the last C is have confidence. Confidence that
everything in your life works out for a reason.
That everything that's happened in the universe
came to this moment. And rather than say, like,
I know better than the universe what should be
happening. This is wrong. having the state of
mind to know that, no, no, no, like things are
happening for a reason. And I can, again, continue
to get curious about that. So pause, get present,
be open, get curious, and then have confidence
that things are going to work out the way that
they need to. That formula has helped me so much
over the last quarter. And again, John, back
to you on this curiosity, creativity, and ways
to apply this as visionaries trying to build
these crazy missions and opportunities for the
world. Again, it comes down to people. But I
mean, you just threw out there so much value
in just the last couple minutes breaking that
down. To get genuinely curious, you have to get
rid of fear. And to get rid of fear, you have
to be confident. So it's like a full circle thing.
You have to be in such a place where you feel
confident that no one can strip something of
you. Because everything we see lately, is driven
by fear. Let's be honest. It's driven by fear.
So if you're coming from a place, and you can
talk about scarcity versus abundance, all of
that. If you're coming from a place where you
feel confident in your skill, your character,
your integrity, that you dictate and design your
story, your reputation, your brand, then no one
can take any of that away from you. That's why
when I work with people, it starts with the self.
What do you stand for? What do you realize about
yourself? You can't work with other people. You
can't leave other people if you don't really
understand yourself. So that plays into all of
that because you got to anchor yourself in whoever
you are, whatever you are, before you get curious.
And that will lead to authenticity. Jackson,
you know people are getting better and better
at smelling BS. They know BS when they see it.
So if you approach somebody, and I love the acronym,
but if you approach somebody and it looks like
you're just doing it performatively, they'll
smell that. So it's almost like you really got
to practice. You really have to understand what
the PP, OCC, what each of those means. So if
I had a client and I was working through that,
it's like, what does that really mean for you?
Because you can't exude what it's supposed to
mean on paper. until you find the core of what
it really means to you and if it doesn't exist
inside you the curiosity will work on what that
looks like but you just said so much that is
so relevant to the times but again that curiosity
and you can't be free to be curious and build
with yourself or anyone else if you have fear
because fear is going to cause you to react because
you're protecting you're going to react it's
in our nature i always bring it up in my podcast
we're primal we're animals emotional intelligence
lets us hold that back and work from the higher
brain function but if you can't get that under
control and understand where you stand so you
don't have that fear you can't you got to work
inward to work outward and you can't be effective
you can't be authentic if you're holding back
because of fear because of uncertainty in what
you can deliver to other people so you really
have to understand who you are and what you deliver
then you can freely get into the curiosity and
deal with the uncertainty. I love that. I love
that you use the word practice as well. This
is such an incredibly important value. We can
practice things that are inauthentic for sure.
The world teaches us to do that, but we can also
practice things that are fully aligned with our
authenticity, just like we did when we wanted
to learn how to walk. All right. It's second
nature. You're not going to be great at walking.
unless you practice it and so we know these things
from the discipline of childhood all the way
through but we learn to start practicing things
to fit in rather than practicing things that
build out who we truly are so a very very cool
opportunity on that we're going to take a little
break we're going to talk about another company
related to practice we're going to come back
we're going to dive into why uncertainty is not
a weakness but a leadership advantage and how
to leverage it as a leader advantage we'll see
you guys on the other side All right. Welcome
in to Vision Pros Live. I'm Jackson Callum. I'm
your show host. We'll be doing interviews for
visionary entrepreneurs and guest leaders who
are building fantastic visions out there. Hey,
what's up, everybody? Welcome in another episode
of Vision Pros Live. I'm your show host, Jackson
Callen, founder and CEO of First Class Business.
And I'm so excited to have John M. Jaramillo
on the show today. He's the best host that I've
ever gotten to be on a podcast with. No shame
to the other hosts. He just won the race. He
was well prepared. He executed super well. The
interview was fun. It was uplifting. It was awesome.
We learned a ton. I recommend checking it out.
We'll put it in the show notes and the resources
as well so you can see that. And if you're looking
for a great podcast to be on where you get to
talk about one of your favorite books and how
it's helped you lead, that's exactly what that
show is about. So we've been talking already
about curiosity and leadership and the things
that we've learned about. If you were to go and
just meditate on it or perhaps expound with ChatGPT,
if you've got a paid account, especially, it
knows you like, hey, how can I apply this to
what I'm doing? Can you create an assessment
for me on how I can be better in these areas?
You've already got a gold mine for the year on
your hands. But I hope that you continue with
us further. I also hope you reach out to both
of us. If you're looking for help, if you're
looking for mentors, if you're looking to truly
build your visions, there's an amazing opportunity
to pull people together. I call it the formula
of one plus one, you plus me, one plus one equals
11. There's a compound effect that occurs when
you combine great people. One plus one plus one,
what does that equal? Not, hey, let's exclude
the other one. Nope, that's 111. You have major
opportunities when you include others. So this
leadership process, what we're going to talk
about is going to help a ton. I'm going to talk
about a few other opportunities first, though.
One is Journey to Wellness. Journey to Wellness
is a program and a brand by Dr. Shannon and Dr.
Justin Pierce. They're a power couple. I've known
them for over eight years. And I've sent... at
least three friends of them i can't remember
the fourth but i know that three and what i learned
about shannon was that she's able to help people
with diseases and with different health issues
that nobody else really knows how to do anything
with and so these three friends they sent one
And I asked them afterwards how it went, and
they said it just blew her mind. She had changes.
I could see the changes as well, and I was like,
oh, my gosh. So I sent somebody else. Same thing
happened. I sent a third person, same thing.
We actually started to work with Journey to Wellness
a few years after that. I was like, Justin, why
the heck can't we never work together? oh it
doesn't make sense we should start doing that
so we started working with them the rebranding
to drshannon .com i highly recommend checking
out they've got a supplement supplement line
and they're very big on making sure that only
the best ingredients are included in those i
really can't say enough about the couple and
what's what the opportunity looks like because
i i worry for my friends and family who don't
have hope when it comes to health that's not
something i have to deal with but when i hear
somebody about i'm like man i just i just hope
to lean into somebody like shannon at least secondly
we'll go over to practice makes permanent by
jennifer reed back to that word that john and
i were talking about practice practice practice
jennifer reed is smart enough to name her company
practice makes permanent because it's so important
that we learn how to practice and of course the
things that are most important in her case she
helps corporations and companies with with facilitating
workshops for culture and leadership as well
she's been training in what i would consider
one of the hardest organizations to train in
for the last couple of decades she works at the
irs um you can imagine what might be difficult
about working in in a government environment
like that with so much bureaucracy we talk about
it all the time in small businesses and corporate
we talk about the bureaucracy and the challenge
that she has superstar skills because of what
she's been through and what she does and i highly
recommend asking her about her personal reason
why did she decide to dedicate herself to emotional
intelligence it will bring you to tears. And
she's got a powerful reason for wanting to bring
this to the world. So that's one of my favorite
things to look for when I'm working with different
individuals is, does this person, thank you,
Simon Sinek, have a story that their why is so
strong that they're going to do everything they
can to bring it to fruition for themselves and
for others? She's that type of leader. Then there's
the water project. The water project is something
that I came across a few years ago. And when
I did, I've never been thirsty in my life, so
I couldn't really relate to it. But as I chose,
and this is your opportunity, you're going to
choose to meditate on what's out there in the
world that's not necessarily related to you.
I saw these kids, and I was like, man, my kids,
are that kids going to drink that water? I'm
like, ooh. And I started to think through, they
have to leave school. They do such a good job
telling you what the experience is like. But
here's why I invested in supporting the Water
Project. You get to pick the community. that
you want to support and they tell you how many
people it's going to help and when you put in
whatever money it is ten dollars they show you
later they'll send you the evidence of what they
did to bring the project to fruition and whether
it's a sand dam or a borehole well you need to
learn about these things and and then you get
to think through like the generational impact
this picture right here these kids are celebrating
water with more genuine authenticity than my
kids even celebrate christmas day that is extremely
humbling my friends we got eight billion people
in this world to help so if you don't have the
financial means to be able to help with this
my hope is that you will use your own microphone
even if that means in the form of like dinner
or lunch with your friends or your family let
them know about this experience do a little research
and see it because they might be the ones who
invest a hundred thousand dollars and bless a
hundred of these towns for generations but even
if you just bring one to fruition You know, you
could be having a generational impact that can
help that community for 20 -plus years and beyond
and allow those kids, allow the parents to stay
focused on other areas of their lives because
now they've got the essentials to live. So back
to the thoughts on helping others. If you know
of a cause that you would love to see us support,
please drop it in the comments because I'm going
to take a personal look at that myself. I'll
probably review it with my team as well. We might
even talk about it on here, and that will be
thanks to your good deeds. So we're going to
go back to serving each one of you based on this
concept of leadership. and dive right into how
uncertainty plays in how you can use it to your
favor in a world where there's a lot of uncertainty
john thanks for being here man i'm so excited
to have you back glad to be here with you man
sir uncertainty how do we leverage it what's
what's the what's the key to overcoming you know
rather than focusing on the uncertainty of the
challenge how do we leverage it what do we do
as leaders to make sure we maximize the opportunity
I think it starts even before, like obviously
uncertainty, you don't know when it's going to
hit. That means knowing what is certain, knowing
what you do know. So whatever you're working
on today, making sure that you understand that
to the best of your capability, to the best of
the ability of your team, that helps you navigate
the uncertainty a little better because you don't,
you're not juggling all these different things
when it hits. You kind of have everything settled.
You've got a system down. You have people you
trust. So when that uncertainty hits, all that
discipline has allowed you a little more latitude.
And the other thing with uncertainty is depending
on the circumstances, depending on the business,
the industry, whatever it may be, there's opportunity
there. I'm somebody that likes uncertainty because
I like chaos. I don't seek it, but I'm not scared
of it because I know. I know we all get sometimes
to the point where there is chaos and we have
no control. There is chaos and things play out
the way we don't expect. There's freedom in not
having control because it's like, okay, I'm not
fighting to keep things together. Sometimes I
got to start from the bottom. Here we go. So
there is uncertainty takes so many different
forms and definitions, but it's again about being
prepared, like with the curiosity about people.
It's about being prepared, knowing who you are
so that when that uncertainty hits, working with
other people, reacting to other people, being
threatened by other people in any capacity, you
know what your core is. And that allows you to
work with what is striking you in that moment,
whatever it may be. So there's a lot of opportunity
there as long as you know where you're coming
from. You nailed it. we're going to take it up
one more notch even because i asked the question
and you answered it perfectly how do we how do
we leverage and take advantage of our opportunities
of uncertainty and i went back and read what
we wrote and what we wrote was uncertainty is
not a weakness and i realized like okay so the
next level of this is how do we recognize that
our uncertainty even expressing our uncertainty
is a strength and you nailed it you actually
answered you said there's freedom and not having
control. And that's also one of the things that
scares us most, is we as Americans, we get freedom
like crazy, like we talk about all the time.
But freedom also has a ton of responsibilities
that come along with it. You have to provide
for yourself, to provide for your family. You've
got a bunch of unknowns because you're free to
have kind of anything and go any direction that
you want to. And so that reality of embracing,
okay, what about my freedom am I scared of? Right.
That's not a bad question to be asking ChatGPT
right now and finding out. In addition to how
do I how do I make sure that the uncertainties
that I'm facing are ones that I'm embracing,
as John talks about and saying, you know what,
chaos exists. In reality, there's very there's
so many things that we don't control that we
think we do control or that we try to control
and letting go of that. One of the one of the
keys for it, in my opinion, is admitting the
uncertainty. They're saying, look, guys, I don't
have any control over traffic whatsoever. I'm
not going to be able to control it. And if traffic
pops up and it's in my way, then I might have
to express, hey, look, I'm not sure I'm certain
if I'm going to make it on time. I did this in
my podcast in the early days. I got stuck in
traffic. I had a show to run. I couldn't get
there in time. I called Jaime on my team and
I said, hey, brother, you're hosting today. He's
never posted. I was like, I'd like you to be
there. I'll be there in 15 minutes, most likely,
but I'm still uncertain. Jaime hosted, and he's
like this in his seat, going back and forth.
He's nervous and scared, but he did it. He trusted
in me. I called the guest up, too. I said, hey,
Jaime's going to be hosting. This is the first
time ever. I'm in traffic. I'll be there. This
is an awesome time. This is a great chance for
you. to showcase your leadership skills by honoring
Jaime and making sure that you guide him as a
good guest. I know you'll do that. I know you'll
be able to. And so the uncertainty created an
incredible opportunity for two people. And I'm
sure you guys can all think of ways where you
can also turn your uncertainty into a strength
rather than a weakness as well. Let's talk about
how curiosity shapes better conversations and
stronger teams. We talked about a framework earlier.
Now let's go into the real. leadership aspect.
So, all right, how do we, how do we apply that
further, John? What does curiosity do for us
in terms of once again, shaping better conversations?
Oh man, I don't even know where to begin with
that one. You know, I, I guess it starts with,
again, I could say here, use these tools, think
of it this way, or come up with my own acronym.
But the power behind any of that is understanding
why it means that much to me. Just in my case,
just in my case. I'm curious because of who I
was as a kid. I was shy. I wasn't confident.
I was an introvert. So I was more of a witness
to what was going on, trying to pay attention
to the world. So I was more observant. And that
makes me who I am today. So when you've. Provided
compliments to me on my podcast and what I do
and what I share with my audience. That's where
that comes from. So that's what you need to understand
is that source of who you are. What is it you
want? Because I can give you, I could give a
list of questions or prepare a list of questions
and hold a conversation with somebody and give
that list of questions to somebody else that
speaks to the same person and it will hit different.
because those questions mean something different
to the other person we have different experiences
so you really do have to understand what's driving
you to this conversation because of the way i
grew up i don't like small talk i'm good at small
talk meaning i want to learn about you like we
can we can we can transact information right
but i i i'm the kind of person why i really need
to know i want to know what you're about because
you can have small talk with anybody You can
report your day to anybody, not just me. So what
can I draw out of you that no one else can or
they don't have maybe the wherewithal to, hey,
ask that question. And I do. And that's one of
my powers. So, again, it's it's practicing curiosity.
Anybody can do what I do, but they really have
to dig deep to what is their curiosity. Can they
sharpen it? Do they understand the value that
they get by learning someone's story? Some people
just don't get that. They may not think if I
learn this person's story, where they're coming
from, what they've gone through, the ups and
downs, it doesn't really give me any value. Me,
I've stood up transformed after every conversation
I've had. I think I'm up to episode. What is
it? 164 or something like that at the end of
last season, starting my next one in the coming
months. Every conversation. because of the way
that I've dug in on the person's story, who they
are, what they bring to the world and their work
has changed me. I've found what I've meant for.
So again, you got to be curious. You got to understand
the value of the story. I don't think we talk
about storytelling all the time. I still don't
think people understand how powerful it is. And
again, speaking to everything going on in the
world today, you know. Most often, we don't want
to hear the other person's story. We don't believe
there's value in the other person's story, that
we can't take away anything from someone else's
story. I understand that, and I'm glad that it
comes through and that you see it in my work.
Huge. And I'm excited to drive into the story
components. We're going to dive in deeper than
the cliche aspect, right? And the level at the
top, we're going to dive into some really deep
components on it. But I do want to go back to
what you just talked about, because there are
some deep components as well. How do we apply
this in the real world that you inspired me to
think through? So when it comes to shaping better
conversations and stronger teams, I can speak
to both of those. One for personal experience
of really sucking and getting curious. And so
with my teams, what I've noticed is, you know,
in my my early days, earlier days of leadership
and when I'm not being my best, I tend to get
anxious. I tend to know where we're supposed
to go. Like I knew how it's I'm not God, you
know, but I will act like that sometimes. And
the other day I was watching to my design team
members talks. They wanted me to be in the conversation.
One didn't know. The other one did know I was
there. And I'm listening and I'm like. I'm not
revealing, but I might point at the screen and
like trying to communicate, like, what about
this? And I felt like I knew exactly where it
needed to go. And my other team members, they're
patiently listening, patiently facilitating this
process organically. And every, the whole time
my anxiety is telling me like, Jackson, you're
wrong. Shut up, Jackson, stay out of it. Jackson,
stop trying to point this. And like, she's a
way better leader than you on this. And this
is exactly how, and I'm on my other side of my
brain is going, why am I reacting? Why am I trying
to control this? Why am I acting like somehow
this, if this magic 30 minutes turns into production,
everything in the world is going to be perfect
from here on out. And like, no, there's never
going to be problems anymore. Like I didn't get
what was going on with me. I just knew that as
I watched these two team members, I'm watching
one greatly outperform me. In terms of building
the relationship, in terms of creating the success,
they created a beautiful banner for our podcast.
We just got to see what that ultimately looked
like. And I didn't have to stress. I really didn't
have to be present. I got to be present, though.
And I got to learn from the experience. And I
was like, dang, just by staying out of the way,
I feel better. We got better results. And the
culture for the team, they trust each other more.
They both feel good. they produce the result
and they get to keep building and everybody like
i mean it's like sunshine and roses now because
i finally stayed out we so often don't stay out
of the way we jump in we may we jump to conclusions
we don't get curious on the flip side the other
piece of um how do we where is it how curiosity
shapes better conversations i am so grateful
for a lesson i learned about jeff bezos of amazon
jeff bezos of amazon made such a brilliant move
they decided that in their company meetings the
person who speaks first is the newest person
in the room the newest member of the team and
they go in reverse order isn't that awesome they
go yeah order seniority and john already knows
why like holy crap i see it because If that person
has to speak last, their response is almost always
like, oh, everything you guys said is perfect.
And they don't feel like there's a place for
them in the conversation. But they specifically
start and go in reverse order. And then we teach
our team. We teach our team the whole thing and
pass the ball. Right. When you're done speaking
and we teach that new person to, hey, it's OK,
you can open up. We'd love to hear it. That's
a great idea. And then they pass about, OK, John,
now it's your turn. And they go to the next person
and then John goes and goes. And then we extract
so much more value because we're making room
for curiosity. We're not necessarily saying,
hey, get curious. We're not we're not being framework
about it. We just have a certain way that we
run the meeting so that everybody feels like
they're able to get involved. Everybody has to
kind of get involved. And that also reveals who
does and who doesn't want to participate. And
it also ensures that everybody's constantly looking
at how do we maximize our own curiosity. So those
are two ways that we do that. We're welcome to
go into stories or John, if you'd love to, if
you'd like to comment on that. Again, there's
just so many different ways you could take that,
but I love that idea of, to me as a leader, I
just love the ability to draw out. what somebody's
thinking like it really is helping design their
leadership asking what do you think what do you
suggest what do you see it sounds so formulaic
but the best leaders that i've ever had were
the ones were were like you know what do you
need how can i help you um i've always said you
could lead strictly by questions strictly by
questions Whether it's getting value or do you
think that's the best approach? Do you think
this might work? Or whatever it may be, I think
you can lead strictly by asking questions. So
when you can ask somebody, I see somebody, anybody
sitting in front of me is just like a vessel
of value. So that's what I want to impart on
people is just the value that other people hold.
So what you say about Bezos and having the newest
person speak less, yeah, so that vision, whatever
they have, their perspective isn't tainted. I
always say with companies that I work with and
I've worked in, like that last person that comes
in, pick their brain before they kind of drink
the Kool -Aid. The last person that came in,
before they jump into your systems and accept
your systems, after they've had some time to
tinker around, ask them questions before they've
completely assimilated. That new mind that hasn't
been tainted by any programming is just valuable,
but you have to know, again, that the value's
there. You have to be curious enough. Even from
a money perspective, that's money you're losing
if you're not tapping into that unique perspective
that they bring to the table. I love it. You
said that you think that we can lead with questions.
You led a little bit stronger than that too right
before. I love the gracefulness of being willing
to flex on what that looks like. i'll double
down on it and i'll double down on it because
look at a taxi driver a taxi driver they are
the leader they are the ones who get you where
you want to go how do they do it asking questions
that's it they ask questions that help them know
exactly where to go how fast to go which route
which route to take if they need to figure that
out too but that is a huge like a real literal
world example that reflects the reality that
if we just get better at asking questions and
taking interest in the passengers that are with
us The passengers are obviously going to have
a much better experience with us by fulfilling
on what it is that they request by having been
asked the right questions. You said it before
when you were sitting in on that meeting that
you had that itch to jump in and point things
out. You know what I mean? We're animals. We're
beasts. We're primal. We want to jump into action,
especially as leaders. We have that idea in our
mind that the leader has to lead. It's a fair
assumption. But it's amazing what can happen
if you do hire the right people. You sit back
and trust. You're not letting the asylum be run
by the people that are there. But there's a method
to their madness that they brought to the table.
There's a method to something that you saw in
them when you hired them. But we tend to want
to jump in. We get emotional. But you showed
great restraint in saying, you know. Certain
things are happening here if I just step back
a little. And that's leadership is knowing when
to step in and knowing when to sit back. Huge,
huge. Back to the taxi. Most taxi drivers probably
don't ask their passenger, would you like to
drive? So constraints and rules, right? There
are some important ones that are on that. So
we could talk about the role of story and building
trust and community, or we could open it up and
talk about the power of storytelling in general.
Real quick, we did say we were going to talk
about what leaders can learn by listening more
and assuming less. my friends we just did that
um so go back and listen to the last session
because the last section and you're going to
have to again if you've got a challenge if you've
got a problem with assuming things you probably
don't even know it and if you have a problem
with this if you don't think you have a problem
with assuming things i highly recommend asking
chat gbt to build you a quick little assessment
Where do I assume things in life? Because we
all have a problem with assuming things. It's
just our natural thing. So find out for you where
you're at with that. It can change the direction,
the trajectory of all of your relationships for
the better. So, John, storytelling. Do we go
right into storytelling and how to apply it?
Or are we going to talk about how storytelling
has a role in building trust and community? We
have five minutes. You tell me and we'll jump
right in. Okay, then I'm going to box us in first
on this idea of building trust and community.
And here's why, my friends, visionaries. If we
do not have clear visions, people are not going
to want to follow us. There's a beautiful quote,
the confused mind says no. We have to know how
to create a clear vision. And we have to create
a vision that involves a place that people want
to belong, whether it's virtually. or whether
it's physically in the world, if people don't
want to belong and they're confused about the
vision, there's no way they're going to follow
you as a visionary. So how do we overcome that?
Two big pieces. Trust is one of those pieces.
And the other one is if we want the community
again, we've got to figure out how we build something
where people want to belong. So storytelling.
How does storytelling correlate with these two
dynamics, Sean, in your eyes? I've got some ideas
on my side. It comes down to, again, what you
want the person to see. That people today can
spell BS. That people today know they're being
targeted as consumers, as customers, as clients.
So they want something that's real. So they want
to understand that in this day and age of AI,
they want some humanness in that touch. They
want that understanding that they're being seen
for what they really need and not just their
dollars. So it's that difference between transactional
and transformational. So, you know, am I coming
to you as a customer just because you want the
dollars or are you going to build more? You're
going to reassure me. You're going to be my go
-to company, my go -to service, my go -to product.
It's everything because it demonstrates where
you're coming from. People don't want to be used.
We see it too much in business today where it
becomes too transactional. There's not enough
reason. There's not enough why. There's not enough
story because people, again. Almost cliche, people
connect to stories. They want to see that somebody
has had the same issue as I have. Someone has
traveled a similar road that I have. Even if
it's finance, I've worked in budget and financial
management for years. And when I put out that
budget or that financial document, there's also
a narrative that goes along with it. This is
why we're doing this. This is why we're doing
that. This is why this has changed so that you
can explain the logic and not just say, here
are the changes. Here's the product. You know,
take a guess. No, we're going to lead the narrative.
We're going to design the story that we're going
to support you with. But it's the difference
between the technical and the hard versus the
soft, the human skills. So again, it's letting
people know that you see them and understand
them because people can tell the difference between
you just want my money versus you're at least
trying to relate to me. Correct. I think there
are people who may get to the fourth level of
influence where you're able to influence without
being in the room that are transactional. but
i don't think they sleep well at night yeah and
that's something that i also want i want to be
able to sleep well at night and so you can be
careful with your stories another good word for
that is you can be intentional with your stories
and i'm going to give a first -hand example on
this um it's one thing for me to talk about how
when uh when dr eric berg came to work with us
at video power market i didn't send me right
when he came to work with us at video power marketing
and i got to take that strategy session i was
i was scared i thought i was going to lose my
job because i had to be the guy who was going
to reveal to him that his website wasn't cutting
it um and and that it was one of the worst websites
i've ever seen and i was not a diplomatic individual
back i was 26 um at the time and uh he had 160
000 subscribers on youtube and so here i am plain
old jackson 26 years old i gotta tell this doctor
who might be pretentious i have no idea i know
what he's gonna be like um and he's expecting
to meet with the jake larson the video ad expert
of the world and i'm taking this call it's a
500 call to meet me um and so i fully anticipated
that he was going to not like this experience
at all and the reality of this opportunity the
guy took notes he said call me aaron jackson
he was super kind he let me play with my theories
and ideas which did happen to be right and did
happen to help and i was able to tell him i wouldn't
touch your website with a 10 -foot pole i would
never send a friend or family member to it looks
like somebody stole your identity and if i put
my information they're going to steal mine next
i would never buy from you it's not the easiest
conversation to probably hear but he took it
like an absolute champion and if you look at
dr eric burke today he's at 14 million subscribers
worldwide um he was able to and he told me right
then he said i'm gonna he said give me three
days um we'll get this fixed so his team did
it my point with this story and going back to
telling the stories i could have been dumb enough
to say i took dr eric bird to 14 million subscribers
um i could have been arrogant and ignorant enough
to try to make a claim like that and it would
have attracted a lot of entrepreneurs I would
have attracted a lot of people who aren't going
to do the research and aren't going to think
through things. And I could have built probably
a little bit of income working with people who
are willing to pay the bare minimum to move forward
with things. But I would instantly drive away
any great leader, anybody who knows how to listen
for the realities and thinks, wow, what an ego.
um you know he seems to think that he made that
other person successful these are those soft
skill notions that are so important to figure
out like okay how do we get intentional with
telling the stories i'm grateful to have been
involved in the project i'm grateful for the
consultation um that existed i'm grateful for
dr eric's leadership dr eric made dr eric dr
eric lebron james is a great quote coach in jj
reddick and he's had other great coaches But
LeBron James makes LeBron James LeBron James.
We all are in charge of where we're going to
go, how we're going to use our stories, what
we're going to do. But one of the greatest challenges
that I see for people who are close to the next
levels of scale is they're too loose with their
stories. They don't understand how to truly correlate
authority and credibility and giving perspective,
understanding the context of who they're talking
to. these these things take shaping these things
require as i go back full circle what john said
they take practice it takes curiosity to understand
how i might be able to improve the legitimacy
or the reality of how i share my perspectives
and stories there's there's so many things that
we can do with that and if it wouldn't if it
wasn't for john right now being here and talking
to me about these little massive pieces of gold
or a little massive. That's like little giants.
You get what I'm saying? The profound nature
of the value of what John plants. Why? Decades
of wisdom, decades of being intentional with
what he's up to. And so Vision Pros, when you
find people like John, don't let him go for a
year. Find out how to hang on to him. find out
how to lean in find out how do we how do we maximize
the opportunities that exist how do we make sure
to keep leaning into curiosity stories the human
side of leadership building great relationships
john i'm gonna give you the final few minutes
here um this was your last chance to share with
visionaries elements of leadership or things
that can help them insights for how they can
build and have success with their visions what
would it be I mean, just from the last section
you talked about, what stood out with that website
was intention versus impact. And some people
want the impact to land beautifully, but sometimes
that's not what the person needs. They need to
hear the truth. So it goes back to trust, a lot
of trust, building that trust so that when you
have to give somebody the tough news, whatever
it may be, you've already established that trust.
So just remember that all of this curiosity,
all of this trust, All of that. It's not like
a feedback sandwich where you give them a little
positivity in that moment, then a negative, then
a positive. No, that positivity, that curiosity,
that consideration needs to be there all the
time so that when you do have to lead with that
hard impact, that honest truth, then you can
do it because you've built that trust. So that
trust and curiosity go hand in hand. Absolutely.
I've taken a lot of that for granted. Until right
now, John, you just opened a whole new opportunity
for me because I struggle where I accidentally
give. I do the sandwich thing, you know, or I
try to give the value. But what I've overlooked
for years is that the reason why Dr. Berg trusted
me wasn't because of me. It was because of Jake.
It was because of Video Power. Had I not inherited.
that value from that entity he might have had
he would have had every right to say like i'm
not sure if i can trust in this or not um but
i was carrying the authority of what jake larson
um was was able to pull together and i think
sometimes we a little bit big -headed and we
forget about opportunities like that i interviewed
the other day nick multiply and he was head of
global acquisition of talent at nike for 10 years
i can listen to nick He's a good guy. He's good
and fun to talk to, but that gives a context
that allows the weight of what he says to be
received with more sacredness. Even if it's difficult
to hear, I've got the value there. That's something
that as visionaries, we can evaluate and think
through too. Maybe our authority is coming from
something parallel to our lives or attached to
our lives. But if we don't get real intentional
on understanding that, then it can also make
it very hard to relate to our audience when we're
delivering fluffy messages or when we're delivering
difficult messages. And there's a huge opportunity.
So thank you, John. You keep expanding my mind,
opening my life to new heights and opportunities.
Every question could be an episode because there's
just so much meat that you've put out there,
so much substance. But yeah, no, I agree with
everything you said. It's just incredible. Again.
All of it. Everything we discussed. Love it.
Vision Pros, come join us on the top right corner
too to be in the show. There's a button that
says be our guest at visionproslive .com. Just
apply. You don't have to be my favorite podcast
host ever. You don't have to be the podcast host
that did the best job ever at interviewing me.
You might be starting your vision out and this
is designed as a starter platform. I want you
on here. Of course, I'm going to bring on the
best of the best as well. But we can explore
visions and learn how to expand them and we can
make this world a better place. That's what it's
really all about. So we'll see you guys in the
next episode. John, thanks for being here. I'll
see you a little bit later today. And I'll be
back together. Thevisionproslive .com probably
already has your episode on it as well. The team's
already been in the landing page. So feel free
to share it. And you guys go like, subscribe,
and we'll see you guys soon. Take care. Take
care. Thank you for being here today. I'm really
happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live.
I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions
as these episodes continue to move forward. This
is going to get more and more fun. We'll have
more and more engagement as well. We'll invite
people to participate in the show. And thank
you for giving us your time and attention. Have
an excellent time building out your vision and
becoming a vision pro yourself.