WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.100 Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode 00:00:02.100 --> 00:00:04.240 of Vision Pros Live. I'm your host and coach, 00:00:04.379 --> 00:00:06.879 Fletcher Ellingson. So glad you're here. I'm 00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:09.119 so glad you're in this conversation. Today on 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 the show, we're gonna be meeting with John Abrams. 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:15.179 And John is a speaker, he's an author, and he's 00:00:15.179 --> 00:00:18.179 committed to transforming businesses into a force 00:00:18.179 --> 00:00:21.000 for good. How he does that, we'll get to that 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:22.899 in a moment. But first, welcome to the show, 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:25.629 John. It's so nice to be here, Fletcher. Thanks 00:00:25.629 --> 00:00:28.390 for having me. Yeah, absolutely. You're calling 00:00:28.390 --> 00:00:32.829 by Martha's Vineyard, you said, right? On the 00:00:32.829 --> 00:00:35.090 little island of Martha's Vineyard off the coast 00:00:35.090 --> 00:00:40.189 of Massachusetts. Right on. And you recently 00:00:40.189 --> 00:00:43.810 wrote a book. It's called From Founder to Future. 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:46.549 But we're going to get that in just a minute. 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:50.000 But I want to first ask you a question. The reason 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:51.899 I'm asking you this, John, is because there's 00:00:51.899 --> 00:00:54.159 a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of suffering 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:57.340 in our world. It's easy to focus on what's not 00:00:57.340 --> 00:01:00.380 going well. That's always available to us. But 00:01:00.380 --> 00:01:02.600 I want to remind our listeners and our viewers 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:06.620 that what also is available to us is what's going 00:01:06.620 --> 00:01:09.120 well. And we always have a choice of where to 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.459 put our focus. And that focus determines how 00:01:12.459 --> 00:01:15.760 we feel internally, which then affects the actions 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.019 that we take in the physical world. So remind 00:01:19.019 --> 00:01:20.859 us of something that's going well, John. What's 00:01:20.859 --> 00:01:23.319 going well in your life personally and or professionally? 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:26.659 Well, you're talking my language, Fletcher, because 00:01:26.659 --> 00:01:29.079 I'm always looking at the good stuff and there's 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:36.230 plenty of it to find. At the end of 2022, after 00:01:36.230 --> 00:01:39.450 50 years running a company called South Mountain 00:01:39.450 --> 00:01:43.290 Company, which I had converted to employee ownership 00:01:43.290 --> 00:01:48.049 many years before, I passed it on to second -generation 00:01:48.049 --> 00:01:52.349 leadership and went on to other things in my 00:01:52.349 --> 00:01:55.829 life, which I'll say about. But right now, a 00:01:55.829 --> 00:01:59.439 couple of years later, I get to watch this company 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:03.159 that I love so much that I put my heart and soul 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:07.120 into. And it is thrilling to see this incredibly 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:12.759 aligned leadership team that is taking it to 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.400 new places. And what I'm seeing is that they 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:19.199 are likely with tools and resources unimaginable 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:22.020 25 years ago. They're going to take it to places 00:02:22.020 --> 00:02:25.620 that my casual style of leadership probably never 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:28.789 could have. So it's fun to watch them do their 00:02:28.789 --> 00:02:32.110 stuff. Boy, that is neat. You know what I really 00:02:32.110 --> 00:02:36.009 appreciate about that is that like you had, this 00:02:36.009 --> 00:02:38.530 is a tremendous win. Like you put in the effort, 00:02:38.629 --> 00:02:43.569 you had the vision and you implemented it. And 00:02:43.569 --> 00:02:47.770 then it took on a life of its own and went to 00:02:47.770 --> 00:02:50.449 a place that you just said like, you know, I 00:02:50.449 --> 00:02:52.909 may not have had the ability to take it to that 00:02:52.909 --> 00:02:56.939 place, but because of the collaboration. It happened. 00:02:57.219 --> 00:03:00.000 And that's exciting to watch, isn't it? It's 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.180 so exciting. And one of the things about it is 00:03:02.180 --> 00:03:04.860 that we had this very intentional three year 00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:07.979 period where we worked relentlessly to build 00:03:07.979 --> 00:03:13.500 the internal leadership capacity to replace me 00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:18.400 and take it to its next 50 years. And yeah, we 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:20.780 never hired anybody from outside. It all came 00:03:20.780 --> 00:03:26.020 from inside. Yeah. So cool. Now, there are going 00:03:26.020 --> 00:03:27.960 to be some people who are listening or watching 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:31.340 this who are not really super familiar with that 00:03:31.340 --> 00:03:38.379 concept of employee -owned businesses. Kind of 00:03:38.379 --> 00:03:43.319 inform us, what does that mean? So, well, I just 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:47.780 wrote 250 pages to say what it means. But in 00:03:47.780 --> 00:03:54.460 a nutshell, I mean, right now. There are 3 million 00:03:54.460 --> 00:03:57.439 small businesses in the U .S. with founders over 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.520 55. And something is going to happen. The silver 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:03.360 tsunami is happening. Something's going to happen 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.199 to each of those businesses over the next 15 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:11.080 years. Trillions of dollars in wealth will change 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.599 hands. And, you know, there are many things. 00:04:14.699 --> 00:04:19.300 Some are handed down within families. Some will, 00:04:19.459 --> 00:04:24.879 many, not finding a buyer, will close the doors, 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:29.639 leaving gaps on Main Street, losing jobs. Some 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:34.360 will be swallowed up by rapacious private equity. 00:04:34.540 --> 00:04:37.620 And those businesses in many places will be taken 00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:41.639 out of their community, saddled with debt, carved 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:45.500 up and sold for parts. And, you know, I talked 00:04:45.500 --> 00:04:50.600 to many people. who sell to private equity and 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:54.079 They wish that their mission could be continued 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:56.279 and their purpose could continue to be fulfilled 00:04:56.279 --> 00:05:00.839 It doesn't and they end up with fat wallets and 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:06.060 broken hearts So here's the thing Fletcher that 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:12.100 most business advisors bankers lawyers accountants 00:05:12.100 --> 00:05:15.920 financial planners succession consultants don't 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.019 know the employee ownership options available 00:05:19.019 --> 00:05:22.720 so in many cases these owners could be selling 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:25.680 to their employees get rewarded for their investment 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.040 and reward those people who helped them build 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:32.560 the business in the first place so this is such 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.600 a wonderful option and there are many forms of 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:40.779 employee ownership i happen to be partial to 00:05:40.779 --> 00:05:42.899 the worker co -op just because i have so much 00:05:42.899 --> 00:05:46.009 experience with it but there are employee ownership 00:05:46.009 --> 00:05:48.829 trusts there are esops which most people are 00:05:48.829 --> 00:05:52.430 familiar with and this book was really intended 00:05:52.430 --> 00:05:56.149 to speak to business owners who are unfamiliar 00:05:56.149 --> 00:06:00.350 with these options and my hope in the book is 00:06:00.350 --> 00:06:03.009 that there are a lot of stories in the book of 00:06:03.009 --> 00:06:06.850 exemplary businesses and there is a lot of information 00:06:06.850 --> 00:06:10.980 on the in the book And my hope is that readers, 00:06:11.139 --> 00:06:13.379 if you're a business person and you read this 00:06:13.379 --> 00:06:16.379 book, that you're going to go, oh, my God, with 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:19.360 one of the forms of employee ownership or one 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.680 of the stories. That sounds like me. I could 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.720 do that. That's that fulfills my aspirations 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:29.660 and they will latch on to it and find a path. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:34.839 Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And what I really want 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:39.959 to have our our listeners. here is this one thing 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:45.259 you said. This is an opportunity to reward the 00:06:45.259 --> 00:06:48.779 very people who helped you build that business. 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:53.519 And that is a beautiful gift of contribution. 00:06:54.939 --> 00:06:59.339 Because as most business owners and entrepreneurs 00:06:59.339 --> 00:07:01.279 know, I mean, if they're really honest with themselves, 00:07:01.620 --> 00:07:05.269 you didn't do it by yourself. You really didn't. 00:07:05.269 --> 00:07:07.769 You didn't build that road all by yourself. You 00:07:07.769 --> 00:07:10.170 had the vision you put in and we're not taking 00:07:10.170 --> 00:07:13.470 anything away from you. You put in so much blood, 00:07:13.509 --> 00:07:16.889 sweat and tears. No doubt about it. Took huge 00:07:16.889 --> 00:07:19.750 risks that others were not willing to take. And 00:07:19.750 --> 00:07:25.129 you had to eventually have the team in order 00:07:25.129 --> 00:07:29.930 to have it turn into what it is. And so this 00:07:29.930 --> 00:07:34.279 is an opportunity to think newly. About how to 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:39.000 continue this business while rewarding and empowering 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:41.899 the people who helped you build it along the 00:07:41.899 --> 00:07:45.959 way. Absolutely. And, you know, I always say 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:51.459 that my career was made up of learning different. 00:07:52.029 --> 00:07:55.810 skills and acquiring different abilities in a 00:07:55.810 --> 00:07:59.149 half -baked way that was just enough that I could 00:07:59.149 --> 00:08:02.250 recognize and attract people that could do all 00:08:02.250 --> 00:08:04.750 those things better than I could do them. And 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:07.410 that's how you put together a team and build 00:08:07.410 --> 00:08:11.410 a culture of ownership. So ownership, there's 00:08:11.410 --> 00:08:15.149 the transactional part of ownership, which means 00:08:15.149 --> 00:08:19.680 a lot to people to be an owner. instead of just 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:25.779 an employee is huge. But there's also the emotional 00:08:25.779 --> 00:08:29.160 part and the culture of ownership. And when people 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:33.480 feel that, they pull together and you just get 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:36.720 a different level of commitment from people and 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:42.059 performance. Oh, absolutely. Now, there are a 00:08:42.059 --> 00:08:43.639 couple of businesses that I'm thinking about 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:45.600 specifically. I don't think they're employee 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:49.009 -owned, but I... maybe no i don't think employee 00:08:49.009 --> 00:08:53.409 own but they they have they have developed and 00:08:53.409 --> 00:08:57.789 cultivated this culture of um buy -in from their 00:08:57.789 --> 00:08:59.590 employees i'm thinking specifically of trader 00:08:59.590 --> 00:09:05.309 joe's and costco yeah longevity in their employees 00:09:05.309 --> 00:09:09.870 and every time i go in there You feel it, right? 00:09:10.250 --> 00:09:12.470 High quality. Yes, exactly. You feel it. I mean, 00:09:12.529 --> 00:09:17.450 Costco is so amazingly different from every other 00:09:17.450 --> 00:09:21.809 big box store. It is. Absolutely. And that's 00:09:21.809 --> 00:09:25.470 not by accident. That is by design, right? Yes. 00:09:25.769 --> 00:09:31.230 Yeah. They invest in their employees. And so 00:09:31.230 --> 00:09:33.889 the employees feel like they have a stake in 00:09:33.889 --> 00:09:38.470 that business. Now, one that comes to mind that 00:09:38.470 --> 00:09:42.330 is employee -owned, that I think if you've ever 00:09:42.330 --> 00:09:45.929 been to Ann Arbor, Michigan, and been to Zingerman's. 00:09:46.110 --> 00:09:50.389 I haven't. Zingerman's started out as a little 00:09:50.389 --> 00:09:52.809 deli, and now it's the Zingerman's community 00:09:52.809 --> 00:09:58.169 of businesses with maybe 750 employees and $80 00:09:58.169 --> 00:10:02.720 million. a year in revenue and it is owned it's 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:07.080 it's really owned by a a purpose trust and um 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:10.379 and you walk in there to get your pastrami sandwich 00:10:10.379 --> 00:10:13.899 and you feel i'm in a different place there's 00:10:13.899 --> 00:10:17.519 a different level of service that the smiles 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.840 are genuine there's there's an authentic culture 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:23.960 that transmits and they've been incredibly successful 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:28.779 and i think because of that you know yeah It's 00:10:28.779 --> 00:10:31.480 not because of the pastrami. The pastrami is 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.440 good, but it's all the rest of it, too. Absolutely. 00:10:35.820 --> 00:10:39.440 Oh, such good stuff. Hey, so the show here is 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:41.820 called Vision Pros Live, right? And so I'm going 00:10:41.820 --> 00:10:45.120 to ask you just to sum up for us, John, what 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:52.879 is your vision? So my vision is that, and I may 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:58.460 overreach a bit, but that this notion. And this 00:10:58.460 --> 00:11:04.799 book can be an antidote in some modest way to 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:14.860 the spirit of cruelty and wealth inequality. 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.389 And we're not in a great place. in our country 00:11:18.389 --> 00:11:21.610 right today. I think we're in a valley. We'll 00:11:21.610 --> 00:11:24.690 come out of it. But I'm hoping that this book 00:11:24.690 --> 00:11:31.909 will help to bring back the sense of kindness 00:11:31.909 --> 00:11:36.070 and caring and respect that has distinguished 00:11:36.070 --> 00:11:40.389 America for centuries, right? And so, you know, 00:11:40.409 --> 00:11:43.230 in any little way that I can to help that, that's 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:46.769 my vision. That's what I want to do. Boy, I totally 00:11:46.769 --> 00:11:50.230 resonate with that. I'm a huge fan of deliberate 00:11:50.230 --> 00:11:53.590 and intentional kindness, like leading with kindness, 00:11:53.649 --> 00:11:58.190 because I actually believe a kindness unifies 00:11:58.190 --> 00:12:02.149 instead of divides. And so if we all lean into 00:12:02.149 --> 00:12:05.470 kindness, oh my gosh, less division, more unification, 00:12:05.669 --> 00:12:09.710 right? Absolutely. Yeah. And so essentially this 00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:13.620 book is an ode. to the america to come the one 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:16.279 where we'll all share the bounty and on this 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:21.559 long journey of um towards liberty and justice 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:24.940 for all we've never made it yet but we're on 00:12:24.940 --> 00:12:27.840 that journey and hopefully this can push down 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:32.240 that path well i want i want to acknowledge you 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.980 and appreciate you for the intentions you've 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:40.139 set out for and for experimenting in your life 00:12:40.139 --> 00:12:43.019 to the point where you arrive to this conclusion 00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:45.519 and are taking action on it. So, you know, I 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:47.759 want to thank you for being a source of kindness 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:50.279 and contribution and spreading this message. 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:54.379 It is a big deal because small and medium -sized 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:56.980 businesses, they're the heartbeat of this country 00:12:56.980 --> 00:13:01.600 still today. They really, really are. And I want 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.899 to tell you, Fletcher, that when... When I sold 00:13:05.899 --> 00:13:09.940 my company to myself and my employees, it was 00:13:09.940 --> 00:13:15.500 scary. And what was scary about it was relinquishing 00:13:15.500 --> 00:13:19.820 full control. What if this thing that I had built, 00:13:20.019 --> 00:13:24.039 that I loved, came to be something that I didn't 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:30.919 love anymore? And that was the fear. And that 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:36.899 fear was... proven to be um i mean it felt kind 00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:39.100 of like tugging on the reins of a runaway horse 00:13:39.100 --> 00:13:42.080 we had this idea and then we were off and running 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.759 and it was it was an exciting path forward to 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:49.240 the unknown but it turns out that my fears were 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.379 completely unfounded i came to love it more and 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:55.980 um and it just became even more of a source of 00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:58.820 joy in my life where you know i always had this 00:13:58.820 --> 00:14:02.120 thing about work that work was work i never was 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.899 able to separate work from play ever since i 00:14:05.899 --> 00:14:08.659 had a paper route when i was 12 years old i loved 00:14:08.659 --> 00:14:15.909 that and and um so This company for me was this 00:14:15.909 --> 00:14:18.590 thing. It was like a magnet every morning when 00:14:18.590 --> 00:14:22.610 I woke up. I get to go out there and work with 00:14:22.610 --> 00:14:25.610 these people all day long and I get paid for 00:14:25.610 --> 00:14:30.110 this shit. Oh, my God. So that was. Right on. 00:14:30.269 --> 00:14:33.909 To be so fortunate, right? Yeah, I feel like 00:14:33.909 --> 00:14:37.009 a very lucky man. Yeah, yeah. Good, good, good. 00:14:37.169 --> 00:14:40.669 So your book is called From Founder to Future, 00:14:40.769 --> 00:14:45.120 yes? Yes. A business roadmap to impact longevity 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.039 and employee ownership. Great, great. If people 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.279 are listening to this and maybe they've been 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:53.179 thinking about this, maybe they're new to this 00:14:53.179 --> 00:14:55.279 concept, but they want to find out more how to 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:57.340 get your book or maybe even connect with you. 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.159 Or maybe there's an owner that's like, no, I 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:01.980 need to have a conversation with this guy because 00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:04.179 I literally have been thinking about transitioning 00:15:04.179 --> 00:15:08.379 to this model, but don't know how because it's 00:15:08.379 --> 00:15:11.139 not real popular. How can we best connect with 00:15:11.139 --> 00:15:17.700 you? abramsangel .com. And that's A -B -R -A 00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:24.000 -M -S -A -N -G -E -L -L .com. And I'm always 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.200 happy to have a conversation with anybody. And 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.600 I have, you know, from the research for this 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:36.360 book and from many, many years of network building, 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.679 I know a lot of people in this field and I can't 00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:43.539 Often I can't do the work, but I can refer people 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:47.519 to others. Got it. OK. Yeah. I love that, too. 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:50.200 Right. When we can't do the work ourselves, we've 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:51.980 got a resource of people where we can direct 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:56.340 you. And we I mean, we need to know when it's 00:15:56.340 --> 00:15:59.519 enough. You know, we can't do everything. And 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:05.399 so collaboration makes makes our influence reach 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.919 further. Yeah. Now you've got you've got another 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:11.649 team member. that I see on the website. Kim? 00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:20.490 Yes. Kim is my life partner and she does different 00:16:20.490 --> 00:16:26.210 work. Sometimes we work together. She helps businesses 00:16:26.210 --> 00:16:29.529 become more efficient and she does tax work, 00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:34.250 state planning. I do the ownership conversions. 00:16:34.889 --> 00:16:37.769 got it okay great great so you got you got a 00:16:37.769 --> 00:16:40.750 couple uh unique irons in the fire there between 00:16:40.750 --> 00:16:45.629 the two of you right on um john so good to have 00:16:45.629 --> 00:16:49.029 you on the show today appreciate you um taking 00:16:49.029 --> 00:16:51.389 the time with us we would love to have you back 00:16:51.389 --> 00:16:55.190 again and i would love specifically to hear some 00:16:55.190 --> 00:16:59.549 some stories where you have been involved with 00:16:59.929 --> 00:17:02.169 helping businesses transition, because I think 00:17:02.169 --> 00:17:04.029 it's important for people to hear like how that 00:17:04.029 --> 00:17:07.630 goes from a from a start to finish. So we can 00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:11.069 mentally conceptualize that and maybe empower 00:17:11.069 --> 00:17:14.869 people to take that action. OK, but I would love 00:17:14.869 --> 00:17:17.849 to tell those stories. That would be great. And 00:17:17.849 --> 00:17:19.930 I love what you're doing. I really appreciate 00:17:19.930 --> 00:17:22.049 it. Thank you for being here today. I'm really 00:17:22.049 --> 00:17:24.029 happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. 00:17:24.210 --> 00:17:26.630 I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions 00:17:26.630 --> 00:17:29.269 as these episodes continue to move forward. This 00:17:29.269 --> 00:17:31.170 is going to get more and more fun. We'll have 00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:32.990 more and more engagement as well. We'll invite 00:17:32.990 --> 00:17:35.390 people to participate in the show. And thank 00:17:35.390 --> 00:17:37.369 you for giving us your time and attention. Have 00:17:37.369 --> 00:17:40.009 an excellent time building out your vision and 00:17:40.009 --> 00:17:41.089 becoming a vision pro yourself.