WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.740 Hey everybody, welcome back to Vision Pros Live. 00:00:01.879 --> 00:00:03.640 I'm your host and coach, Fletcher Ellingson. 00:00:03.819 --> 00:00:06.780 Today on the show, we're talking about being 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:09.759 guided by grace. We've got Keith Haney on the 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.560 show. Keith, welcome to Vision Pros Live. Well, 00:00:13.580 --> 00:00:14.939 thanks for having me, Fletcher. I'm looking forward 00:00:14.939 --> 00:00:16.660 to talking to you. Love to have this conversation. 00:00:17.420 --> 00:00:20.480 Absolutely. I got the name correct, right? Keith 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:22.879 Haney? Yeah, that's right. Just like Green Acres. 00:00:23.309 --> 00:00:25.890 all right all right so we're going to start off 00:00:25.890 --> 00:00:28.309 first with the question i always ask my guests 00:00:28.309 --> 00:00:30.329 because you know there's a lot of suffering going 00:00:30.329 --> 00:00:32.130 on in the world there's a lot of uncertainty 00:00:32.130 --> 00:00:36.450 and we become practiced at paying attention to 00:00:36.450 --> 00:00:40.329 that and and and we become practiced at looking 00:00:40.329 --> 00:00:43.829 for the misses instead of the wins what's wrong 00:00:43.829 --> 00:00:47.270 or what's doesn't feel good in the world and 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:49.890 what's going well and what is feeling good in 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:53.240 the world both are always available to us And 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.380 I assert that it's a practice of training to 00:00:56.380 --> 00:00:59.740 focus on what's going well. So start us off with 00:00:59.740 --> 00:01:02.740 a win. What is going well for you in your personal 00:01:02.740 --> 00:01:06.299 and or professional life? Well, what's great 00:01:06.299 --> 00:01:08.579 for me in this season is I just finished my doctoral 00:01:08.579 --> 00:01:11.200 dissertation. So after three years of kind of 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:13.959 digging through that research and getting a bunch 00:01:13.959 --> 00:01:17.569 of. feedback from a lot of congregations about 00:01:17.569 --> 00:01:20.989 how do you navigate change. I think I've figured 00:01:20.989 --> 00:01:23.730 out kind of, I guess I'd say the key to helping 00:01:23.730 --> 00:01:26.510 organizations turn a corner from just having 00:01:26.510 --> 00:01:29.750 a big vision about the future to making that 00:01:29.750 --> 00:01:31.870 vision something that flourishes and grows. So 00:01:31.870 --> 00:01:33.489 I'm really getting a lot of people now calling 00:01:33.489 --> 00:01:36.709 me going, hey, we love the book. We love the 00:01:36.709 --> 00:01:40.359 idea. Help us. take this vision that we have 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:42.760 and turn into something that's, that's turning 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:44.680 our organization around and it's now concrete. 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:46.840 So yeah, that's just been fun kind of having 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:49.959 those conversations. Right on. So, so you got 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.260 the book guided by grace. You're finished. You 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:54.939 did finish up your dissertation. Is that what 00:01:54.939 --> 00:01:59.340 you said? I did back in March, May of 2024. Congratulations. 00:02:00.340 --> 00:02:03.099 So, and, and now you're having conversations 00:02:03.099 --> 00:02:08.840 with people about how to, and really about what 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:11.240 this show is about, right? It's a vision. And 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:12.979 I just talked to you before we started recording, 00:02:13.139 --> 00:02:16.659 like, yeah, in my opinion, a vision is a clarified 00:02:16.659 --> 00:02:19.560 story that lives up in the mind. And then we 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.300 take action to bring that into the physical realm. 00:02:22.460 --> 00:02:24.259 And so now you're having conversations with people 00:02:24.259 --> 00:02:26.800 about doing exactly that, right? Right, exactly. 00:02:27.020 --> 00:02:28.979 And I always tell them, because churches have 00:02:28.979 --> 00:02:31.680 a hard time with vision. So I say to them, you 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:33.939 know, think of it as your trophy. If you're going 00:02:33.939 --> 00:02:36.199 for your trophy, what's that trophy look like? 00:02:36.819 --> 00:02:39.219 And what does it take to get to that trophy? 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:41.060 So I use the example. I'm not a I'm not a Cub 00:02:41.060 --> 00:02:43.500 fan, but a lot of people get this example. So 00:02:43.500 --> 00:02:45.819 I was like, imagine what the Chicago Cubs trophy 00:02:45.819 --> 00:02:47.979 was. I mean, they've been 100 years without winning 00:02:47.979 --> 00:02:51.020 a World Series. Theo Epstein comes on the scene 00:02:51.020 --> 00:02:54.740 and he has one particular goal, one vision that 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:57.460 the entire city knew. And that was to bring home 00:02:57.460 --> 00:03:00.360 the World Series trophy to Chicago Cubs. If you 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.879 ask anybody in Chicago. What was the goal? What 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:07.039 was the trophy? It was a World Series. So I ask 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:09.919 organizations, can you tell me so clearly what 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.560 your trophy is that everybody in the entire organization 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:17.020 knows exactly what you're aiming for? Because 00:03:17.020 --> 00:03:18.900 if you know what it is and you know what it takes 00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:21.240 to get there, if you're unclear about your vision, 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:26.659 then every road will get you there. I like this 00:03:26.659 --> 00:03:29.939 conversation. This is what we're all about, tapping 00:03:29.939 --> 00:03:33.150 into what your vision is. And what you said is 00:03:33.150 --> 00:03:40.030 something so spot on. And I want to ask our listeners 00:03:40.030 --> 00:03:43.949 to consider this. Can you articulate your vision? 00:03:44.349 --> 00:03:47.229 Can you clearly articulate your vision to another 00:03:47.229 --> 00:03:51.930 person so they understand it? Right. Is that 00:03:51.930 --> 00:03:54.490 vision clarified in your head? Because would 00:03:54.490 --> 00:03:58.509 you agree, Keith, that the more clarity you have 00:03:58.509 --> 00:04:02.969 around the vision? the greater access you have 00:04:02.969 --> 00:04:06.689 to creating it. Well, yeah, definitely. And you 00:04:06.689 --> 00:04:09.030 also will discover that things will pop up in 00:04:09.030 --> 00:04:11.870 your sphere because you have a clear vision that 00:04:11.870 --> 00:04:14.729 you wouldn't see if you didn't. So I tell churches, 00:04:14.770 --> 00:04:17.129 a lot of organizations, if you have a clear vision, 00:04:17.389 --> 00:04:20.310 you'll be amazed how many opportunities come 00:04:20.310 --> 00:04:23.029 your way because. People will buy into that and 00:04:23.029 --> 00:04:25.350 you'll see it more clearly when the opportunity 00:04:25.350 --> 00:04:27.850 arises. If your vision isn't clear, you will 00:04:27.850 --> 00:04:30.089 miss opportunities because you're looking for 00:04:30.089 --> 00:04:33.290 whatever that thing is to build momentum. Vision 00:04:33.290 --> 00:04:37.180 helps you to narrow. your focus so that your 00:04:37.180 --> 00:04:40.240 resources, your time, energy, your people resources 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:42.860 are all going toward the same thing. If you're 00:04:42.860 --> 00:04:45.160 not clear about that, you'll try all kinds of 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:46.600 things that don't really get you where you want 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:49.120 to end up being. So it really does help you to 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:53.060 narrow what your focus is. Yeah. And speaking 00:04:53.060 --> 00:04:56.379 from like a neuroscience point of view, what 00:04:56.379 --> 00:04:59.620 you're saying also attracts because we have that 00:04:59.620 --> 00:05:02.699 RAS or the reticular activation system, right? 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:06.459 That sits down towards the back of your head. 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:10.759 That is our filtering system. So it pays attention 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:16.339 to what is on our mind and it sorts all the incoming 00:05:16.339 --> 00:05:20.089 data and it says, oh. Is this what we're, does 00:05:20.089 --> 00:05:23.350 this track with what we're, have been focused 00:05:23.350 --> 00:05:26.009 on? Is this track what we believe? Is this track 00:05:26.009 --> 00:05:28.769 on, you know, is this in alignment with my opinions? 00:05:28.889 --> 00:05:33.009 So it's always looking for that to validate that 00:05:33.009 --> 00:05:37.250 vision or, and like you said, we start seeing 00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:41.209 or hearing conversations. They're like, oh, got 00:05:41.209 --> 00:05:43.230 to talk with that person, right? We look for 00:05:43.230 --> 00:05:47.949 those opportunities. So yeah, love that. So why 00:05:47.949 --> 00:05:52.029 is this important to you? Because you started 00:05:52.029 --> 00:05:55.009 out with the other question of what in the world 00:05:55.009 --> 00:05:58.550 is broken? And there's so much brokenness in 00:05:58.550 --> 00:06:03.470 the world. And in my area of expertise, the church, 00:06:03.569 --> 00:06:06.629 we have the answers to some of that brokenness. 00:06:06.730 --> 00:06:09.550 But if we don't effectively communicate that 00:06:09.550 --> 00:06:13.050 message, nobody ever hears. about the solutions 00:06:13.050 --> 00:06:15.769 that the church has for their their day -to -day 00:06:15.769 --> 00:06:19.170 lives so when a church is ineffective when it 00:06:19.170 --> 00:06:22.310 is distracted when it is going off on the wrong 00:06:22.310 --> 00:06:25.490 tangents or chasing the wrong things it misses 00:06:25.490 --> 00:06:27.769 the opportunity to pour into people's lives in 00:06:27.769 --> 00:06:30.550 a transformational way so for me it's like how 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:34.069 do you bring transformational processes to people's 00:06:34.069 --> 00:06:35.769 lives and that's kind of what i'm in the business 00:06:35.769 --> 00:06:40.959 of transformation yeah okay I can get behind 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:48.180 that for sure. Yeah. Transformation. That's not 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:50.860 just changing your opinion about something. No. 00:06:51.300 --> 00:06:54.579 Yeah. Talk to me a little more and help my audience 00:06:54.579 --> 00:06:57.560 understand what you mean by a transformation. 00:06:58.660 --> 00:07:02.339 So when I did this research, I discovered I was 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:04.459 trying to really comparing leadership styles. 00:07:04.579 --> 00:07:06.459 And I think that kind of plays in what your question 00:07:06.459 --> 00:07:09.189 is. We were always taught in the church that 00:07:09.189 --> 00:07:11.449 the best kind of leader for the church is a servant 00:07:11.449 --> 00:07:14.529 leader. What I discovered in my research is that 00:07:14.529 --> 00:07:17.189 servant leaders actually don't produce the kind 00:07:17.189 --> 00:07:20.170 of change that they want to produce. The group 00:07:20.170 --> 00:07:22.189 that does that are transformational leaders, 00:07:22.269 --> 00:07:26.310 because transformational leaders can get beyond 00:07:26.310 --> 00:07:29.509 the feelings and the emotions of the people around 00:07:29.509 --> 00:07:31.470 them, where servant leaders kind of get stuck 00:07:31.470 --> 00:07:33.949 on, hey, I want everybody to like me and I want 00:07:33.949 --> 00:07:36.370 people to feel good about this. Transformational 00:07:36.370 --> 00:07:39.069 leaders go, I want to transform the people around 00:07:39.069 --> 00:07:41.769 me and also want to transform the organization. 00:07:41.970 --> 00:07:44.509 And ultimately, I want to transform the community. 00:07:44.689 --> 00:07:47.649 So transformation is about how do you bring into 00:07:47.649 --> 00:07:52.569 the brokenness, healing and life changing potential 00:07:52.569 --> 00:07:55.410 in people's lives, in the organization, in the 00:07:55.410 --> 00:07:57.269 community you're serving or the customers you're 00:07:57.269 --> 00:08:01.290 serving? Yes. Yeah. And and I would and I would 00:08:01.290 --> 00:08:05.209 add to that what a transformational leader excels 00:08:05.209 --> 00:08:10.620 at. they have the ability to enroll people into 00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:13.100 a vision of what's possible. Is that accurate? 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:17.420 Yes. Yeah. We're not looking to necessarily just 00:08:17.420 --> 00:08:20.019 fix something that's broken. We're not looking 00:08:20.019 --> 00:08:25.040 to put a Band -Aid on something that needs a 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.420 Band -Aid. What we're looking for is to transform 00:08:28.420 --> 00:08:34.740 something so it may look and operate radically 00:08:34.740 --> 00:08:37.960 differently than it has. previously is that accurate 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:40.639 yeah i would say it's taking to the next level 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:43.559 taking your team to the next level taking your 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:45.399 organization to the next level taking your community 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.019 to the next level so it's like okay we're here 00:08:48.019 --> 00:08:50.720 the transformation leader sees where we're going 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.299 and knows how to get us all there yes and so 00:08:54.299 --> 00:08:57.519 it's really this it's a powerful yeah atmosphere 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:00.600 Yes. Yeah. The transformational leader has a 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:04.620 has a roadmap of how to get to this vision. And 00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:08.700 I would also assert that what this leader is 00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:11.899 exceptional at is influencing the thinking of 00:09:11.899 --> 00:09:15.019 the people that they are leading. Right. Because 00:09:15.019 --> 00:09:19.320 because we need to bring new thinking to the 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:21.480 situation in order to create something newly. 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:25.059 Yeah. Yeah. And the funny thing is, I also studied 00:09:25.059 --> 00:09:27.139 the charismatic leader, what I call a narcissistic 00:09:27.139 --> 00:09:30.480 leader. They have the ability to get people to 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.519 buy into the vision, but not necessarily buy 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:39.039 into them. And so that's a you can almost get 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.460 those two confused because the narcissistic leader 00:09:41.460 --> 00:09:44.240 and the transformation look a lot the same. But 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:46.279 how you feel around the leader is different. 00:09:46.659 --> 00:09:49.929 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so we want to 00:09:49.929 --> 00:09:54.850 pay attention to the leaders that we are giving 00:09:54.850 --> 00:09:58.009 our time, attention, money to. Right. We want 00:09:58.009 --> 00:10:02.029 to pay attention, get curious. Yeah. Where are 00:10:02.029 --> 00:10:04.769 they leading us? What is the vision that they're 00:10:04.769 --> 00:10:08.149 enrolling us into? Right. Right. Does that track 00:10:08.149 --> 00:10:11.809 with my values and standards? Exactly. Yeah. 00:10:11.830 --> 00:10:19.929 Yeah. So you have indicated. that there's a little, 00:10:20.090 --> 00:10:23.389 I don't know what percentage of churches you 00:10:23.389 --> 00:10:25.950 think are kind of going off the rails, but you 00:10:25.950 --> 00:10:28.710 indicated that there is some of this sense of 00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:30.669 that things are going off the rails. Can you 00:10:30.669 --> 00:10:33.850 tell me more what you mean by that? Well, to 00:10:33.850 --> 00:10:37.289 take some numbers, people like numbers, 80 % 00:10:37.289 --> 00:10:38.870 of churches are either plateaued or declining. 00:10:40.029 --> 00:10:43.049 Only 10 percent of churches are having what I 00:10:43.049 --> 00:10:46.190 would call conversional growth, which is new 00:10:46.190 --> 00:10:49.110 people coming in and joining the church. So you 00:10:49.110 --> 00:10:51.289 have you have a lot of dysfunction. Thirty one 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:53.490 percent of churches are just having transfer 00:10:53.490 --> 00:10:56.110 growth. So you can imagine if you're if you're 00:10:56.110 --> 00:10:58.549 in a company, people don't like Nike. So they 00:10:58.549 --> 00:11:02.809 go buy Converse. Yeah, it's not that you got 00:11:02.809 --> 00:11:04.889 new customers. You just switch tennis shoes because 00:11:04.889 --> 00:11:08.210 they had a sale. And I'll go back to the other 00:11:08.210 --> 00:11:10.289 store as soon as they were dissatisfied with 00:11:10.289 --> 00:11:13.570 that. So there's not this new customers. You're 00:11:13.570 --> 00:11:16.029 just kind of switching among 10 issue buyers. 00:11:17.169 --> 00:11:20.870 So so a lot of churches are plateaued or in decline. 00:11:21.389 --> 00:11:25.409 What do you attribute that to? I think some of 00:11:25.409 --> 00:11:28.950 it is. The inability, I believe, of churches 00:11:28.950 --> 00:11:33.669 to adapt to their surroundings. Culture is moving 00:11:33.669 --> 00:11:36.250 at such a fast pace that the church sometimes 00:11:36.250 --> 00:11:39.710 lags behind in its methods. Not the message, 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:41.610 but just the methods to reach out to this new 00:11:41.610 --> 00:11:43.409 generation. So, for example, I was at a church 00:11:43.409 --> 00:11:47.049 this last week and the population are not reaching 00:11:47.049 --> 00:11:49.230 is what they call the digital dependent generation. 00:11:49.909 --> 00:11:52.990 It's young singles who do everything online. 00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:56.019 And this is a congregation that is used to having 00:11:56.019 --> 00:12:00.360 churches in person, gatherings in person, and 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:03.960 everything they do is interactive, personal interaction. 00:12:04.220 --> 00:12:06.279 They're not reaching the group that is going 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:08.820 to first of all look at your website, look for 00:12:08.820 --> 00:12:11.460 you to have a social media group that they can 00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:15.840 join, an online chat group, or do podcasts, or 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.919 have just a sermon on video. So they're not reaching 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.220 that population that's really digital. They're 00:12:22.220 --> 00:12:24.559 reaching the ones that are older and now maybe 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:27.960 single or widowed. And so they just have to adapt 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.139 their strategies if they want to reach that digital 00:12:30.139 --> 00:12:34.539 age generation. Yeah, very observant. And that's 00:12:34.539 --> 00:12:38.240 super important because, yeah, the younger generations, 00:12:38.379 --> 00:12:41.159 everything's online or much of what they do is 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.980 online or they go online to check things out. 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:48.320 They because they're what they're looking for 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.480 is a sense of certainty. They want to have a 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.620 sense of certainty before they perhaps show up 00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:56.940 in person. Right. Right. Exactly. Or even the 00:12:56.940 --> 00:12:59.600 community, because you think about the workforce 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:01.779 and how the workforce has been impacted by COVID. 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:04.559 And now younger people like I can do my work 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.519 from home. I don't want to drive, you know, 20 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.019 minutes to 45 minutes to get to my job. I can 00:13:10.019 --> 00:13:12.960 do my job in my pajamas at home. And church has 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:15.299 become that, too. You know, why do I want to 00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:18.500 drive? to go to church when I can best as easily 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:23.179 turn the TV on, get my Starbucks coffee, my latte, 00:13:23.419 --> 00:13:25.480 whatever that's going to be, and I can enjoy 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:30.279 the service online. So the need to be in person 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.100 with people is just not as much as important 00:13:33.100 --> 00:13:35.440 for this generation. And if the church doesn't 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.799 understand that and adapt, not only its online 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:41.460 worship presence, but its online presence in 00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:43.639 general, they're not going to connect with this 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.590 generation. So you indicated that there is a 00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:50.049 small percentage of churches that are growing. 00:13:50.809 --> 00:13:53.769 What do you see them doing that's resulting in 00:13:53.769 --> 00:13:57.370 that growth? They are not leaving any opportunity 00:13:57.370 --> 00:14:02.409 on the table. So if they need podcasts or certain 00:14:02.409 --> 00:14:04.350 kind of ministries to connect with their generation, 00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:07.129 they are above the curve. And I know one church 00:14:07.129 --> 00:14:10.129 that kids love to text. So they have the pastor 00:14:10.129 --> 00:14:12.529 throw a question up on the screen and have the 00:14:12.529 --> 00:14:15.059 kids text the answers on the screen live. during 00:14:15.059 --> 00:14:17.519 the sermon. When I mentioned that to this other 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.759 church, they're like, I can't imagine having 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.259 my kids texting during church. I keep trying 00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:24.679 to put the phone away. But this church, let's 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:29.019 pour into that. How can we engage them by having 00:14:29.019 --> 00:14:34.860 them interact during that? Yeah, okay. I'm appreciating 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:37.980 that. And I want to play devil's advocate because 00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:39.820 there are people out there listening right now 00:14:39.820 --> 00:14:41.659 and they're like, Keith, dude, you're going too 00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:46.190 far. Come on, man. Come on. phones, people on 00:14:46.190 --> 00:14:50.690 their phones during church. Come on, talk to 00:14:50.690 --> 00:14:52.889 those people. What are you going to say to that? 00:14:53.129 --> 00:14:55.309 I think the important thing is don't lose sight 00:14:55.309 --> 00:14:57.649 of the message, but you've got to figure out 00:14:57.649 --> 00:14:59.830 a way to connect with this generation or you're 00:14:59.830 --> 00:15:03.490 not going to have them anyway. And I'm not saying 00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:06.529 we ever compromise the message or the truth of 00:15:06.529 --> 00:15:09.409 the gospel, but you have to realize this generation 00:15:09.409 --> 00:15:13.039 is not going to walk in your doors. This is, 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.139 you know, we have a saying in Iowa, if you build 00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:18.159 it, they will come. Well, they aren't coming. 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:23.620 So you have to go to where they are. And that 00:15:23.620 --> 00:15:28.379 means in the digital space, in the sports space, 00:15:28.539 --> 00:15:31.179 in the bar space, you got to go where the people 00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:36.360 are if you want to connect with them. Okay. There's 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:42.490 a hot topic for me. Try to reel myself in here. 00:15:42.529 --> 00:15:47.529 Take a breath. Because that's always been the 00:15:47.529 --> 00:15:52.970 message of Christ. Yes. Go to the people. Right. 00:15:53.970 --> 00:15:58.909 We are not looking for them to come to us. We 00:15:58.909 --> 00:16:03.470 were called to go out to the people where they 00:16:03.470 --> 00:16:06.879 are in need. Is that accurate or not? No, it's 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.720 very accurate. I mean, he went to where the sinners 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:11.539 were. He went to where the tax collectors were. 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.700 He went to where the infirmed were, the diseased 00:16:15.700 --> 00:16:18.139 were. And he was in their midst. He didn't say, 00:16:18.139 --> 00:16:20.960 everybody come meet me at the tabernacle, at 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:23.679 the temple. He was at the temple very often. 00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:27.820 So he was out among the people. So I want to 00:16:27.820 --> 00:16:30.279 invite our listeners to consider, if Jesus was 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:34.440 here today, he might be hanging out on the corner. 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:38.299 down by 7 -Eleven with all the youth who have 00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:42.440 their noses in their phones. Right. Right? And 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.659 he's chatting them up. Yeah, he's texting them. 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:48.919 He's on Snapchat with them. He's texting them. 00:16:49.019 --> 00:16:51.700 He's like, dudes, check out this reel, right? 00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:54.820 Right, check out this reel. It's my little two 00:16:54.820 --> 00:16:58.240 -minute sermon here, right? That's right. He's 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.620 finding a way to meet them where they're at, 00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:03.919 engage them in a meaningful way. right right 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.960 exactly and and do it in a non -judgmental way 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:12.400 he's right he's doing it he's with them not condescending 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.940 to with them loving them and really getting where 00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:19.559 who they are and where they're at uh yeah i love 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.650 this this is a radical notion This is going to 00:17:22.650 --> 00:17:24.650 be what you're saying, what you're suggesting 00:17:24.650 --> 00:17:28.589 churches do is like, hey, get with this. We have 00:17:28.589 --> 00:17:30.730 to make radical changes. Now, I define radical 00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:33.329 as a departure from the norm, a departure from 00:17:33.329 --> 00:17:36.970 what has been the norm, what has been usual. 00:17:37.869 --> 00:17:40.309 It's always uncomfortable to do that. It always 00:17:40.309 --> 00:17:44.670 it might look crazy to other people. Right. Exactly. 00:17:45.190 --> 00:17:47.789 But I think what you're saying here, Keith, is 00:17:47.789 --> 00:17:51.390 spot on. We need to pay attention to that. If 00:17:51.390 --> 00:17:55.089 you want to if you don't want to lose an entire 00:17:55.089 --> 00:18:00.970 generation, find a way to be relevant. Right, 00:18:01.089 --> 00:18:03.869 exactly. I mean, you have kids that I mean, my 00:18:03.869 --> 00:18:05.910 kids, for example, some of them, if I call them 00:18:05.910 --> 00:18:07.250 on the phone, they will never answer the phone. 00:18:07.670 --> 00:18:10.410 If I text them, they will text me right back. 00:18:10.490 --> 00:18:14.559 So. If the church is calling people on the phone 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:16.759 and no one's answering, are you really making 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:20.240 a difference? Whereas if I text you and you respond, 00:18:20.420 --> 00:18:25.119 maybe I need to text you more. Yeah. And I think 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:26.619 one of the things we need to realize that because 00:18:26.619 --> 00:18:30.799 some, again, adults, older adults who are listening 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.279 to this might be like, really, we have to text 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:35.819 these people? Why can't they just pick up that? 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.619 I'll tell you why they they I'll tell you why 00:18:38.619 --> 00:18:42.089 they're trending towards behavior. Because they 00:18:42.089 --> 00:18:46.950 feel safer. Yes. Right? They feel safer. Oh, 00:18:47.049 --> 00:18:51.769 I can text, not get roped into a long conversation, 00:18:51.829 --> 00:18:54.609 not get roped into I don't have to be as vulnerable. 00:18:55.109 --> 00:18:57.529 There's a little bit of safety built in for them, 00:18:57.589 --> 00:18:59.849 and they're comfortable doing it. I mean, not 00:18:59.849 --> 00:19:03.049 just kids. I mean, many people. But we're talking 00:19:03.049 --> 00:19:05.650 about the younger generation. So, again, you're 00:19:05.650 --> 00:19:07.970 meeting where they're at. You're considering 00:19:07.970 --> 00:19:12.319 their zone of safety. As you outreach to them. 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.180 Yeah, exactly. I mean, because I mean, we got 00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:18.039 we got an email generation. They don't do emails. 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.779 So sending out a church email announcement, they're 00:19:21.779 --> 00:19:23.480 not going to read that. You send out a text, 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.400 they'll respond with a link on it or QR code 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.440 to register. You got to realize if you want the 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.579 relationship with them, you have to go the extra 00:19:31.579 --> 00:19:34.519 mile. You have to work a little harder at it. 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:40.430 Yeah. Yeah. You know, some people. Might hear 00:19:40.430 --> 00:19:43.490 that and go, ah, dang, Keith, that sounds like 00:19:43.490 --> 00:19:47.910 a burden. But I heard something recently that 00:19:47.910 --> 00:19:54.450 I'll never forget. Responsibility without commitment 00:19:54.450 --> 00:20:00.009 does feel like a burden. Yeah. But when you create, 00:20:01.670 --> 00:20:04.470 when you add in commitment to your responsibility, 00:20:04.690 --> 00:20:08.390 it suddenly is not the burden anymore. because 00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:12.329 you're committed but responsibility without commitment 00:20:12.329 --> 00:20:17.349 feels burdensome so what we have to do is we 00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:20.890 have to realize like yeah the people the here's 00:20:20.890 --> 00:20:23.309 the the the people that we're trying to outreach 00:20:23.309 --> 00:20:25.750 here's their playing ground there's their safety 00:20:25.750 --> 00:20:30.769 ground i have to commit to uh to that level of 00:20:30.769 --> 00:20:33.789 responsibility and suddenly it just it just kind 00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:36.849 of it's a bit of a relief valve and it's no longer 00:20:36.849 --> 00:20:40.079 a burden because there's that high level of commitment 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:44.079 does that resonate no it does and it goes back 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:46.599 to how important is the relationship to you do 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:49.359 these people matter to you are you willing to 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.880 go the extra mile to reach them or they don't 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:53.839 matter if they don't matter then don't take don't 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.140 make don't don't waste their time and your time 00:20:57.140 --> 00:21:00.400 by making the effort if they matter then you 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.660 will go the extra mile yeah this is such a great 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:06.759 conversation i really appreciate it and um and 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:11.519 it's It's a controversial as well, because you're 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.920 saying things like, well, if it doesn't matter. 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:19.859 I mean, it's hard to say, well, they don't matter 00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:24.839 then. Right. Because if you're a Christian, meaning 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:29.400 a follower of Christ, then they matter. Yes. 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:34.779 And we're called into commitment, right? Right. 00:21:35.349 --> 00:21:38.029 um so this is a really good conversation it's 00:21:38.029 --> 00:21:42.470 easy to operate from a place of safety it's easy 00:21:42.470 --> 00:21:48.769 to become um you know lackadaisical yeah yeah 00:21:48.769 --> 00:21:51.150 even jaded to say you know if they even they 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:54.069 should come yeah they get mad at them for not 00:21:54.069 --> 00:21:55.910 coming it's like they shouldn't know about it 00:21:55.910 --> 00:21:57.849 they should just be here but yeah you're not 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:00.960 creating a space for them to be there. It's not 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:02.920 a welcoming space. They don't feel comfortable 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:05.640 there. So if you want them there, what are you 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:07.480 going to do to make them feel... If you had a 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:09.539 guest come into your home, you wouldn't just 00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:11.519 leave the door and say, just come in when you 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:13.460 get here. You'd meet them at the door. You'd 00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:15.079 do extra things. You'd make sure they have your 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.880 favorite meal. You do a lot of things, but we 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:19.960 don't want to do that. We just want them to just 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.900 walk in and feel comfortable. Well, you didn't 00:22:22.900 --> 00:22:24.859 walk in and feel comfortable when you came in 00:22:24.859 --> 00:22:27.880 30, 40, 50 years ago. Someone opened the door 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:31.819 and welcomed you in. What's our welcoming them 00:22:31.819 --> 00:22:35.000 in look like? It won't be the front door of the 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.259 church. It may be the email, the text message, 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.380 the online presence. It's something different 00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:42.920 to this generation than it was to us and our 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.740 grandparents. You nailed it. And I'm going to 00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:49.359 highlight what you just said because I want our 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.799 listeners to hear this. What feels welcoming 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:57.869 to you may be very different for somebody else. 00:22:58.390 --> 00:23:02.210 So what I heard you say is get curious about 00:23:02.210 --> 00:23:06.369 what would feel welcoming to that other person. 00:23:06.789 --> 00:23:12.089 It may not be the same thing for you, but if 00:23:12.089 --> 00:23:14.930 you want them to have the experience of being 00:23:14.930 --> 00:23:17.750 welcomed, then get curious about what that looks 00:23:17.750 --> 00:23:21.670 like for them. Right, exactly. Yeah, that's awesome. 00:23:21.769 --> 00:23:27.980 Awesome message. Excuse me, Keith, I really appreciate 00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:33.819 the energy you're bringing to this in our world. 00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:38.279 It is so needed. Thank you for what you're doing. 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.759 And if people want to, first of all, if they 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.000 want to get your book guided by grace, if they 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.119 want to connect with you, if they like what they're 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:48.759 hearing from you and they're like, this guy's 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:50.940 got some great ideas. I want to brainstorm with 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:53.440 them. I want to see what's working. Tell us how 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.980 to get in touch with you. The best way to connect 00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:59.200 with me personally is my website, becomingbridgebuilders 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:02.720 .org. On that, you'll find my podcast. You'll 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.480 find my blog posts. You'll find conversations. 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.140 You'll also be able to reach out to me and make 00:24:09.140 --> 00:24:12.440 direct contact with me. If you want to, you can 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.039 follow me on Facebook under Rev B. Keith Haney. 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.869 I'm also on Instagram, Rev B. Keith Haney. a 00:24:18.869 --> 00:24:21.809 rev head pin i like bowling so everything's rev 00:24:21.809 --> 00:24:28.230 head pin typically but yeah i love my podcast 00:24:28.230 --> 00:24:30.410 is really about having deep conversation i want 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:32.630 to go deeper with people and i want to listen 00:24:32.630 --> 00:24:35.609 so my podcast is kind of what fox news was supposed 00:24:35.609 --> 00:24:38.710 to be um fair and balanced so i have people on 00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:40.869 my podcast i don't necessarily agree with But 00:24:40.869 --> 00:24:42.869 I want to have the conversation. Like you just 00:24:42.869 --> 00:24:44.910 said, I'm curious. I want to learn from you. 00:24:45.150 --> 00:24:47.269 I want to know why we don't agree. I want to 00:24:47.269 --> 00:24:48.930 know why you believe what you believe. I want 00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:51.670 to hear and I want the audience to hear the things 00:24:51.670 --> 00:24:53.369 that you're wrestling with, the things that you're 00:24:53.369 --> 00:24:56.029 discovering, the things that we may have common 00:24:56.029 --> 00:24:58.069 ground with. So I really want to have those deep 00:24:58.069 --> 00:25:00.849 conversations. A lot of those are the podcasts 00:25:00.849 --> 00:25:03.589 about just having those deep conversations. Yeah. 00:25:04.250 --> 00:25:07.170 boy i really am feeling enthusiastic about that 00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:11.490 because i believe that we usually lead with um 00:25:11.490 --> 00:25:14.809 what we don't have in common and what we actually 00:25:14.809 --> 00:25:18.470 do have in common there's so much but we have 00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:20.630 to have those conversations to find like you 00:25:20.630 --> 00:25:22.750 said that middle ground like where where do we 00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:26.619 have that overlap oh it's there great now let's 00:25:26.619 --> 00:25:29.720 start going outward and and and really begin 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.579 to understand each other's you know but let's 00:25:32.579 --> 00:25:36.299 have that safety first like oh yeah you know 00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:40.220 we do have some common ground here yeah okay 00:25:40.220 --> 00:25:43.160 great great well i invite our listeners to get 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:47.039 in touch with you listen to the podcast get curious 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.819 and uh keith again thank you for being on the 00:25:49.819 --> 00:25:53.559 show love what you're doing good work Yeah. Thank 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.759 you. All right. And now it's time for you all 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.579 to get out there. Be a source of kindness. Be 00:25:57.579 --> 00:25:59.619 a source of contribution. You do have something 00:25:59.619 --> 00:26:02.470 to offer this world. And I believe in you. Thank 00:26:02.470 --> 00:26:04.430 you for being here today. I'm really happy that 00:26:04.430 --> 00:26:06.450 you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. I'm looking 00:26:06.450 --> 00:26:09.710 forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes 00:26:09.710 --> 00:26:11.509 continue to move forward. This is going to get 00:26:11.509 --> 00:26:14.150 more and more fun. We'll have more and more engagement 00:26:14.150 --> 00:26:16.210 as well. We'll invite people to participate in 00:26:16.210 --> 00:26:18.390 the show. And thank you for giving us your time 00:26:18.390 --> 00:26:20.670 and attention. Have an excellent time building 00:26:20.670 --> 00:26:22.990 out your vision and becoming a vision pro yourself.