Hey everybody, welcome back to Vision Pros Live.
I'm your host and coach, Fletcher Ellingson.
Today on the show, we're talking about being
guided by grace. We've got Keith Haney on the
show. Keith, welcome to Vision Pros Live. Well,
thanks for having me, Fletcher. I'm looking forward
to talking to you. Love to have this conversation.
Absolutely. I got the name correct, right? Keith
Haney? Yeah, that's right. Just like Green Acres.
all right all right so we're going to start off
first with the question i always ask my guests
because you know there's a lot of suffering going
on in the world there's a lot of uncertainty
and we become practiced at paying attention to
that and and and we become practiced at looking
for the misses instead of the wins what's wrong
or what's doesn't feel good in the world and
what's going well and what is feeling good in
the world both are always available to us And
I assert that it's a practice of training to
focus on what's going well. So start us off with
a win. What is going well for you in your personal
and or professional life? Well, what's great
for me in this season is I just finished my doctoral
dissertation. So after three years of kind of
digging through that research and getting a bunch
of. feedback from a lot of congregations about
how do you navigate change. I think I've figured
out kind of, I guess I'd say the key to helping
organizations turn a corner from just having
a big vision about the future to making that
vision something that flourishes and grows. So
I'm really getting a lot of people now calling
me going, hey, we love the book. We love the
idea. Help us. take this vision that we have
and turn into something that's, that's turning
our organization around and it's now concrete.
So yeah, that's just been fun kind of having
those conversations. Right on. So, so you got
the book guided by grace. You're finished. You
did finish up your dissertation. Is that what
you said? I did back in March, May of 2024. Congratulations.
So, and, and now you're having conversations
with people about how to, and really about what
this show is about, right? It's a vision. And
I just talked to you before we started recording,
like, yeah, in my opinion, a vision is a clarified
story that lives up in the mind. And then we
take action to bring that into the physical realm.
And so now you're having conversations with people
about doing exactly that, right? Right, exactly.
And I always tell them, because churches have
a hard time with vision. So I say to them, you
know, think of it as your trophy. If you're going
for your trophy, what's that trophy look like?
And what does it take to get to that trophy?
So I use the example. I'm not a I'm not a Cub
fan, but a lot of people get this example. So
I was like, imagine what the Chicago Cubs trophy
was. I mean, they've been 100 years without winning
a World Series. Theo Epstein comes on the scene
and he has one particular goal, one vision that
the entire city knew. And that was to bring home
the World Series trophy to Chicago Cubs. If you
ask anybody in Chicago. What was the goal? What
was the trophy? It was a World Series. So I ask
organizations, can you tell me so clearly what
your trophy is that everybody in the entire organization
knows exactly what you're aiming for? Because
if you know what it is and you know what it takes
to get there, if you're unclear about your vision,
then every road will get you there. I like this
conversation. This is what we're all about, tapping
into what your vision is. And what you said is
something so spot on. And I want to ask our listeners
to consider this. Can you articulate your vision?
Can you clearly articulate your vision to another
person so they understand it? Right. Is that
vision clarified in your head? Because would
you agree, Keith, that the more clarity you have
around the vision? the greater access you have
to creating it. Well, yeah, definitely. And you
also will discover that things will pop up in
your sphere because you have a clear vision that
you wouldn't see if you didn't. So I tell churches,
a lot of organizations, if you have a clear vision,
you'll be amazed how many opportunities come
your way because. People will buy into that and
you'll see it more clearly when the opportunity
arises. If your vision isn't clear, you will
miss opportunities because you're looking for
whatever that thing is to build momentum. Vision
helps you to narrow. your focus so that your
resources, your time, energy, your people resources
are all going toward the same thing. If you're
not clear about that, you'll try all kinds of
things that don't really get you where you want
to end up being. So it really does help you to
narrow what your focus is. Yeah. And speaking
from like a neuroscience point of view, what
you're saying also attracts because we have that
RAS or the reticular activation system, right?
That sits down towards the back of your head.
That is our filtering system. So it pays attention
to what is on our mind and it sorts all the incoming
data and it says, oh. Is this what we're, does
this track with what we're, have been focused
on? Is this track what we believe? Is this track
on, you know, is this in alignment with my opinions?
So it's always looking for that to validate that
vision or, and like you said, we start seeing
or hearing conversations. They're like, oh, got
to talk with that person, right? We look for
those opportunities. So yeah, love that. So why
is this important to you? Because you started
out with the other question of what in the world
is broken? And there's so much brokenness in
the world. And in my area of expertise, the church,
we have the answers to some of that brokenness.
But if we don't effectively communicate that
message, nobody ever hears. about the solutions
that the church has for their their day -to -day
lives so when a church is ineffective when it
is distracted when it is going off on the wrong
tangents or chasing the wrong things it misses
the opportunity to pour into people's lives in
a transformational way so for me it's like how
do you bring transformational processes to people's
lives and that's kind of what i'm in the business
of transformation yeah okay I can get behind
that for sure. Yeah. Transformation. That's not
just changing your opinion about something. No.
Yeah. Talk to me a little more and help my audience
understand what you mean by a transformation.
So when I did this research, I discovered I was
trying to really comparing leadership styles.
And I think that kind of plays in what your question
is. We were always taught in the church that
the best kind of leader for the church is a servant
leader. What I discovered in my research is that
servant leaders actually don't produce the kind
of change that they want to produce. The group
that does that are transformational leaders,
because transformational leaders can get beyond
the feelings and the emotions of the people around
them, where servant leaders kind of get stuck
on, hey, I want everybody to like me and I want
people to feel good about this. Transformational
leaders go, I want to transform the people around
me and also want to transform the organization.
And ultimately, I want to transform the community.
So transformation is about how do you bring into
the brokenness, healing and life changing potential
in people's lives, in the organization, in the
community you're serving or the customers you're
serving? Yes. Yeah. And and I would and I would
add to that what a transformational leader excels
at. they have the ability to enroll people into
a vision of what's possible. Is that accurate?
Yes. Yeah. We're not looking to necessarily just
fix something that's broken. We're not looking
to put a Band -Aid on something that needs a
Band -Aid. What we're looking for is to transform
something so it may look and operate radically
differently than it has. previously is that accurate
yeah i would say it's taking to the next level
taking your team to the next level taking your
organization to the next level taking your community
to the next level so it's like okay we're here
the transformation leader sees where we're going
and knows how to get us all there yes and so
it's really this it's a powerful yeah atmosphere
Yes. Yeah. The transformational leader has a
has a roadmap of how to get to this vision. And
I would also assert that what this leader is
exceptional at is influencing the thinking of
the people that they are leading. Right. Because
because we need to bring new thinking to the
situation in order to create something newly.
Yeah. Yeah. And the funny thing is, I also studied
the charismatic leader, what I call a narcissistic
leader. They have the ability to get people to
buy into the vision, but not necessarily buy
into them. And so that's a you can almost get
those two confused because the narcissistic leader
and the transformation look a lot the same. But
how you feel around the leader is different.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so we want to
pay attention to the leaders that we are giving
our time, attention, money to. Right. We want
to pay attention, get curious. Yeah. Where are
they leading us? What is the vision that they're
enrolling us into? Right. Right. Does that track
with my values and standards? Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. So you have indicated. that there's a little,
I don't know what percentage of churches you
think are kind of going off the rails, but you
indicated that there is some of this sense of
that things are going off the rails. Can you
tell me more what you mean by that? Well, to
take some numbers, people like numbers, 80 %
of churches are either plateaued or declining.
Only 10 percent of churches are having what I
would call conversional growth, which is new
people coming in and joining the church. So you
have you have a lot of dysfunction. Thirty one
percent of churches are just having transfer
growth. So you can imagine if you're if you're
in a company, people don't like Nike. So they
go buy Converse. Yeah, it's not that you got
new customers. You just switch tennis shoes because
they had a sale. And I'll go back to the other
store as soon as they were dissatisfied with
that. So there's not this new customers. You're
just kind of switching among 10 issue buyers.
So so a lot of churches are plateaued or in decline.
What do you attribute that to? I think some of
it is. The inability, I believe, of churches
to adapt to their surroundings. Culture is moving
at such a fast pace that the church sometimes
lags behind in its methods. Not the message,
but just the methods to reach out to this new
generation. So, for example, I was at a church
this last week and the population are not reaching
is what they call the digital dependent generation.
It's young singles who do everything online.
And this is a congregation that is used to having
churches in person, gatherings in person, and
everything they do is interactive, personal interaction.
They're not reaching the group that is going
to first of all look at your website, look for
you to have a social media group that they can
join, an online chat group, or do podcasts, or
have just a sermon on video. So they're not reaching
that population that's really digital. They're
reaching the ones that are older and now maybe
single or widowed. And so they just have to adapt
their strategies if they want to reach that digital
age generation. Yeah, very observant. And that's
super important because, yeah, the younger generations,
everything's online or much of what they do is
online or they go online to check things out.
They because they're what they're looking for
is a sense of certainty. They want to have a
sense of certainty before they perhaps show up
in person. Right. Right. Exactly. Or even the
community, because you think about the workforce
and how the workforce has been impacted by COVID.
And now younger people like I can do my work
from home. I don't want to drive, you know, 20
minutes to 45 minutes to get to my job. I can
do my job in my pajamas at home. And church has
become that, too. You know, why do I want to
drive? to go to church when I can best as easily
turn the TV on, get my Starbucks coffee, my latte,
whatever that's going to be, and I can enjoy
the service online. So the need to be in person
with people is just not as much as important
for this generation. And if the church doesn't
understand that and adapt, not only its online
worship presence, but its online presence in
general, they're not going to connect with this
generation. So you indicated that there is a
small percentage of churches that are growing.
What do you see them doing that's resulting in
that growth? They are not leaving any opportunity
on the table. So if they need podcasts or certain
kind of ministries to connect with their generation,
they are above the curve. And I know one church
that kids love to text. So they have the pastor
throw a question up on the screen and have the
kids text the answers on the screen live. during
the sermon. When I mentioned that to this other
church, they're like, I can't imagine having
my kids texting during church. I keep trying
to put the phone away. But this church, let's
pour into that. How can we engage them by having
them interact during that? Yeah, okay. I'm appreciating
that. And I want to play devil's advocate because
there are people out there listening right now
and they're like, Keith, dude, you're going too
far. Come on, man. Come on. phones, people on
their phones during church. Come on, talk to
those people. What are you going to say to that?
I think the important thing is don't lose sight
of the message, but you've got to figure out
a way to connect with this generation or you're
not going to have them anyway. And I'm not saying
we ever compromise the message or the truth of
the gospel, but you have to realize this generation
is not going to walk in your doors. This is,
you know, we have a saying in Iowa, if you build
it, they will come. Well, they aren't coming.
So you have to go to where they are. And that
means in the digital space, in the sports space,
in the bar space, you got to go where the people
are if you want to connect with them. Okay. There's
a hot topic for me. Try to reel myself in here.
Take a breath. Because that's always been the
message of Christ. Yes. Go to the people. Right.
We are not looking for them to come to us. We
were called to go out to the people where they
are in need. Is that accurate or not? No, it's
very accurate. I mean, he went to where the sinners
were. He went to where the tax collectors were.
He went to where the infirmed were, the diseased
were. And he was in their midst. He didn't say,
everybody come meet me at the tabernacle, at
the temple. He was at the temple very often.
So he was out among the people. So I want to
invite our listeners to consider, if Jesus was
here today, he might be hanging out on the corner.
down by 7 -Eleven with all the youth who have
their noses in their phones. Right. Right? And
he's chatting them up. Yeah, he's texting them.
He's on Snapchat with them. He's texting them.
He's like, dudes, check out this reel, right?
Right, check out this reel. It's my little two
-minute sermon here, right? That's right. He's
finding a way to meet them where they're at,
engage them in a meaningful way. right right
exactly and and do it in a non -judgmental way
he's right he's doing it he's with them not condescending
to with them loving them and really getting where
who they are and where they're at uh yeah i love
this this is a radical notion This is going to
be what you're saying, what you're suggesting
churches do is like, hey, get with this. We have
to make radical changes. Now, I define radical
as a departure from the norm, a departure from
what has been the norm, what has been usual.
It's always uncomfortable to do that. It always
it might look crazy to other people. Right. Exactly.
But I think what you're saying here, Keith, is
spot on. We need to pay attention to that. If
you want to if you don't want to lose an entire
generation, find a way to be relevant. Right,
exactly. I mean, you have kids that I mean, my
kids, for example, some of them, if I call them
on the phone, they will never answer the phone.
If I text them, they will text me right back.
So. If the church is calling people on the phone
and no one's answering, are you really making
a difference? Whereas if I text you and you respond,
maybe I need to text you more. Yeah. And I think
one of the things we need to realize that because
some, again, adults, older adults who are listening
to this might be like, really, we have to text
these people? Why can't they just pick up that?
I'll tell you why they they I'll tell you why
they're trending towards behavior. Because they
feel safer. Yes. Right? They feel safer. Oh,
I can text, not get roped into a long conversation,
not get roped into I don't have to be as vulnerable.
There's a little bit of safety built in for them,
and they're comfortable doing it. I mean, not
just kids. I mean, many people. But we're talking
about the younger generation. So, again, you're
meeting where they're at. You're considering
their zone of safety. As you outreach to them.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, because I mean, we got
we got an email generation. They don't do emails.
So sending out a church email announcement, they're
not going to read that. You send out a text,
they'll respond with a link on it or QR code
to register. You got to realize if you want the
relationship with them, you have to go the extra
mile. You have to work a little harder at it.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, some people. Might hear
that and go, ah, dang, Keith, that sounds like
a burden. But I heard something recently that
I'll never forget. Responsibility without commitment
does feel like a burden. Yeah. But when you create,
when you add in commitment to your responsibility,
it suddenly is not the burden anymore. because
you're committed but responsibility without commitment
feels burdensome so what we have to do is we
have to realize like yeah the people the here's
the the the people that we're trying to outreach
here's their playing ground there's their safety
ground i have to commit to uh to that level of
responsibility and suddenly it just it just kind
of it's a bit of a relief valve and it's no longer
a burden because there's that high level of commitment
does that resonate no it does and it goes back
to how important is the relationship to you do
these people matter to you are you willing to
go the extra mile to reach them or they don't
matter if they don't matter then don't take don't
make don't don't waste their time and your time
by making the effort if they matter then you
will go the extra mile yeah this is such a great
conversation i really appreciate it and um and
it's It's a controversial as well, because you're
saying things like, well, if it doesn't matter.
I mean, it's hard to say, well, they don't matter
then. Right. Because if you're a Christian, meaning
a follower of Christ, then they matter. Yes.
And we're called into commitment, right? Right.
um so this is a really good conversation it's
easy to operate from a place of safety it's easy
to become um you know lackadaisical yeah yeah
even jaded to say you know if they even they
should come yeah they get mad at them for not
coming it's like they shouldn't know about it
they should just be here but yeah you're not
creating a space for them to be there. It's not
a welcoming space. They don't feel comfortable
there. So if you want them there, what are you
going to do to make them feel... If you had a
guest come into your home, you wouldn't just
leave the door and say, just come in when you
get here. You'd meet them at the door. You'd
do extra things. You'd make sure they have your
favorite meal. You do a lot of things, but we
don't want to do that. We just want them to just
walk in and feel comfortable. Well, you didn't
walk in and feel comfortable when you came in
30, 40, 50 years ago. Someone opened the door
and welcomed you in. What's our welcoming them
in look like? It won't be the front door of the
church. It may be the email, the text message,
the online presence. It's something different
to this generation than it was to us and our
grandparents. You nailed it. And I'm going to
highlight what you just said because I want our
listeners to hear this. What feels welcoming
to you may be very different for somebody else.
So what I heard you say is get curious about
what would feel welcoming to that other person.
It may not be the same thing for you, but if
you want them to have the experience of being
welcomed, then get curious about what that looks
like for them. Right, exactly. Yeah, that's awesome.
Awesome message. Excuse me, Keith, I really appreciate
the energy you're bringing to this in our world.
It is so needed. Thank you for what you're doing.
And if people want to, first of all, if they
want to get your book guided by grace, if they
want to connect with you, if they like what they're
hearing from you and they're like, this guy's
got some great ideas. I want to brainstorm with
them. I want to see what's working. Tell us how
to get in touch with you. The best way to connect
with me personally is my website, becomingbridgebuilders
.org. On that, you'll find my podcast. You'll
find my blog posts. You'll find conversations.
You'll also be able to reach out to me and make
direct contact with me. If you want to, you can
follow me on Facebook under Rev B. Keith Haney.
I'm also on Instagram, Rev B. Keith Haney. a
rev head pin i like bowling so everything's rev
head pin typically but yeah i love my podcast
is really about having deep conversation i want
to go deeper with people and i want to listen
so my podcast is kind of what fox news was supposed
to be um fair and balanced so i have people on
my podcast i don't necessarily agree with But
I want to have the conversation. Like you just
said, I'm curious. I want to learn from you.
I want to know why we don't agree. I want to
know why you believe what you believe. I want
to hear and I want the audience to hear the things
that you're wrestling with, the things that you're
discovering, the things that we may have common
ground with. So I really want to have those deep
conversations. A lot of those are the podcasts
about just having those deep conversations. Yeah.
boy i really am feeling enthusiastic about that
because i believe that we usually lead with um
what we don't have in common and what we actually
do have in common there's so much but we have
to have those conversations to find like you
said that middle ground like where where do we
have that overlap oh it's there great now let's
start going outward and and and really begin
to understand each other's you know but let's
have that safety first like oh yeah you know
we do have some common ground here yeah okay
great great well i invite our listeners to get
in touch with you listen to the podcast get curious
and uh keith again thank you for being on the
show love what you're doing good work Yeah. Thank
you. All right. And now it's time for you all
to get out there. Be a source of kindness. Be
a source of contribution. You do have something
to offer this world. And I believe in you. Thank
you for being here today. I'm really happy that
you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. I'm looking
forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes
continue to move forward. This is going to get
more and more fun. We'll have more and more engagement
as well. We'll invite people to participate in
the show. And thank you for giving us your time
and attention. Have an excellent time building
out your vision and becoming a vision pro yourself.