1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,960 Tell me about your vision. 2 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:06,600 Well, at present, my vision is I'm pretty happy with it. 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,280 I'm pretty happy doing what I'm doing, 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,160 but I am in the midst of a second career. 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,800 As a faculty at UVA Darden, 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,360 I wrote a book while I was running my last company. 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,040 My vision at that point was very directional. 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:29,320 I think I was just curious about how I could help with practice. 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,400 I wrote the book, I realized, 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,960 I don't know if anybody is actually doing any of these things. 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,120 I started doing talks, 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,160 and then I realized I still didn't know if it was really helping anybody or not. 13 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:44,440 That's how I ended up in teaching at UVA. 14 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,040 Well, in general, yes, 15 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,480 it's not entirely proprietary. 16 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:52,960 It's like agile or product management or something. 17 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,200 It is a general notion, 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,680 but if you Google it, it'll probably come up with some of my stuff. 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,720 That is my main shtick. 20 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,800 I would say that in terms of vision, 21 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,680 it was certainly a matter of going at that vision, 22 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,680 but I arrived at a hypothesis-driven development 23 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,200 by the same way that what it proposes. 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,520 I kept working on how to 25 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,320 present the material in a way that was actionable to practitioners, 26 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:30,280 and not just intellectually. 27 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,640 I don't think anything I teach is particularly hard to understand, 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,040 but like most business things, 29 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,080 it's hard to really make the time and have the habits to practice those things. 30 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:44,480 What I noticed was that the element of testability of like, 31 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,040 you're going to do this and then here's what you 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,000 should do to see whether it actually worked or it didn't. 33 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:51,640 When you start doing it, 34 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,040 you should be ready for the idea that it might not work. 35 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,840 Because that's what I learned in my own career was, 36 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:03,720 I would never make any claim about the startups that I've started myself, 37 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:04,880 or that I've invested in, 38 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,240 that I somehow knew what would happen. 39 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,680 But what I would say is we were very tenacious and we were ready to be wrong, 40 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,360 was the other key thing. 41 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,560 Just blind tenacity, 42 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,900 it can get you nowhere except just exhausted. 43 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:21,880 We were ready to be wrong, change course, 44 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,680 and that's really how I arrived at hypothesis-driven development. 45 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,840 I realized that that was actually the step. 46 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,520 Wait a second, you said practitioners. 47 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,080 You were chiropractors, aren't you? 48 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,240 No, just practitioners of product management. 49 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,520 Yeah. I could use a chiropractor. 50 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,800 My back is killing me. 51 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,800 These are mostly people that are working on 52 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,200 digital products in some capacity, founders, 53 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:51,640 or in the white-collar work world today, just about everybody. 54 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:53,760 So they're generally doing- 55 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,040 So practitioners in general, people who are practicing the art of something. 56 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:57,920 Yeah. 57 00:02:57,920 --> 00:02:58,760 Okay. 58 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,000 Yeah. I was like, hey, personify your- 59 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,160 You don't have a past working with practitioners like chiropractors, do you? 60 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,000 No. I heard myself surfing once, 61 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,120 and I went through a practitioner and he fixed me up pretty well, I have to say. 62 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,600 My dad is even older than I am and I'm pretty ancient and he's an MD. 63 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,600 He's pretty suspicious about chiropractors, but I- 64 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,160 The reason why I'm asking is you look a little bit like 65 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,520 an Alex that I met several years ago 66 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,320 working with a company called Blueprint to Practice Automation. 67 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,680 So now I'm realizing, okay, 68 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,840 maybe I do have two different Alex's here, 69 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,560 but you also have similar mannerisms with how you present. 70 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,360 That's a good thing. So I'll bring you back on point with this. 71 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,160 So app-based, you mentioned in your form too, 72 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,960 that you're working on some systems to help app-based entrepreneurs or 73 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,480 business owners with driving their results forward. 74 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,000 Tell me about that. What does that look like? 75 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:06,920 Well, Jackson, most of the time it looks like a disaster and you've got to be ready for that. 76 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:13,160 Even companies that have very mature products that are operating at massive scale, 77 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,320 you just venture a wild guess. 78 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,480 Google introduces a new variation on a feature. 79 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,280 Guess what percentage of the time they're 80 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:27,520 successful relative to the prevailing alternative what they have today. 81 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,240 I would say 4 percent. 82 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,000 Yeah, that's right. It's about 5 percent. 83 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,960 Most people think it's much higher. 84 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,200 So if you think about that and you're starting from scratch, 85 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,640 you've got to be ready. Your job as a product manager, 86 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,280 a product person in digital particularly, 87 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:48,160 is not to be right all the time, 88 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,800 but it is to minimize waste. 89 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,640 Like a lot of things, business is pretty easy to understand, 90 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,000 but very hard to do. 91 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,600 Actually, one of my favorite vignettes about what does it mean to do 92 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,320 hypothesis-driven development is this idea of a job board for pets by my friend, 93 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,640 and sometimes collaborators. 94 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,120 What's a vignette? 95 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,080 Vignette just like a little story, an example basically. 96 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,200 The idea is, I come to you and I say, 97 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,560 Jackson, I have an idea. 98 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,000 There's lots of job boards for people to get a job, 99 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,480 but what about a job board for pets? 100 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,680 This idea is bananas. 101 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,000 Nobody's probably really going to want this. 102 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,000 A good question to ask relative to a practice like 103 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,520 hypothesis-driven development is how do we eliminate, 104 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,120 how do we give this idea a fair shake, 105 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,040 but eliminate it with a minimum of waste? 106 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,960 The most expensive way to test it is actually to build out the job board, 107 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,000 and treat it like we traditionally treat things in business, 108 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,880 make a plan, create the thing. 109 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,960 That's the most wasteful way you could possibly test it. 110 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,880 The least wasteful way would just be to go interview some pet owners, 111 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,840 and ask them non-leading questions like, 112 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:02,600 what are the top five things that are hard or annoying about having a pet? 113 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:03,760 You're never going to hear, 114 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,240 I wish it was more fully employed, 115 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,680 I wish it could earn its keep. 116 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,880 You can eliminate the idea very reasonably on that basis. 117 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,360 Then the next most wasteful way, 118 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,560 least in the middle, 119 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,800 but less wasteful than building the whole thing out, 120 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,560 but somewhat more wasteful than just going out and making sure you understand who the possible buyer. 121 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,680 I want to say real quick, these are huge points. 122 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,320 Mike, these are so important for your visionaries out there. 123 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,880 There's a huge difference between having a vision and having a pipe dream. 124 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:42,960 Most people have a pipe dream because they don't understand this type of infrastructure, I'll call it. 125 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,560 It's people like Alex who are able to help you then figure out 126 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,480 what you need to know in order to bring said vision to life. 127 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,720 That's a key factor here is visionaries, 128 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,720 it's one thing to envision it, 129 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,600 it's another then to strive to bring it to life. 130 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,600 It's important to find people who have this type of understanding. 131 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:08,000 One of the things that I love that you said was asking non-leading questions. 132 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,800 For those of you experts out there who are about to log off and say, 133 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,240 oh, this is about the basics, 134 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,880 the things that only beginners don't know, 135 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,280 no, all of you experts are screwing this up too. 136 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,400 Most people do not know the difference between a leading question and a non-leading question. 137 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:23,880 Let's break that down, Alex. 138 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:29,400 What is a non-leading question and how do we help visionaries and entrepreneurs 139 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,920 learn to ask them without thinking that they're, 140 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,000 hey, Alex, do you work with chiropractors? 141 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,920 There's a leading question for you. 142 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,080 How do you teach people to ask non-leading questions? 143 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,560 Well, mostly by practice, 144 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,000 but I think you've got to know who you're talking to, 145 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,640 and then you've got to fall in love with 146 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,760 the thing that your vision is going to do for your buyer, 147 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,680 user, whoever you're having a relationship with. 148 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,840 Rather than like I want them to buy into my pipe dream, 149 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,600 my particular take on this. 150 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,920 For example, a non-leading question for the pet owners, 151 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,080 the one I asked, what's it like having a pet? 152 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,680 What are the top five things you wish wrote? 153 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,800 A leading question is, hey, 154 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,120 I've been working so hard for the last month on this job board for pets, 155 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,760 and I'm super excited about it. What do you think? 156 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,640 Would you like to use a job board for your pet? 157 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,760 Now I don't want to hurt your feelings. 158 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,800 Right now, I don't want to make you feel bad, 159 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,320 so I'm going to change my answer to fit your narrative 160 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,320 because you're emotionally vulnerable and people don't like conflict. 161 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,320 It's a very, very good example. 162 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:44,160 Alex, if today we were to talk about one of your talent, 163 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:50,160 superpowers, gifts, or insights that can be of greatest use to the visionary listening in, 164 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,880 what would that topic be? 165 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,840 I would make sure that as you start your vision, 166 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,120 you're fundamentally interested in who you're doing this thing for 167 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,680 and what's on their A-list and what's going on with them. 168 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:09,160 I really think that as long as that's the thing that's your north star, 169 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:10,520 then you'll be fine. 170 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,600 You might have to change course, 171 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:17,240 your original view of what the right solution is for them might need to change, 172 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:18,880 but they're out there. 173 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,960 If this thing really exists and you know who these people are, 174 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,440 if you keep at it long enough, 175 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,840 you can produce something valuable as long as you're ready to be wrong, 176 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,840 as long as you're ready to adjust course based on what you learn from these people. 177 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,840 I absolutely love that. 178 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,040 I hope you come back to talk to us again in depth about these realities. 179 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,360 My friends, my favorite quote, 180 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,800 my favorite non-biblical quote is, 181 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,240 people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. 182 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,640 What Alex is talking about is one of the keys to learning how to care 183 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:54,640 until we are able to listen to people and understand what it is that they're going through, 184 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,440 what it is they're looking for. 185 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,520 Oftentimes, back to one of my other favorite quotes, 186 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,520 when you start selling a hammer, 187 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,680 everything starts to look like a nail. 188 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:10,680 There's too many of us business owners out there offering and providing nails as pillows, 189 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:14,200 or hammers as pillows and trying to get people to buy 190 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,440 things without taking the sacred responsibility, 191 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,160 or the opportunity to just listen to people and figure out what is it that they want, 192 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:26,560 what is it they need. Odds are what you're doing is some rendition of that, 193 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:30,160 but the feedback that you can get from the consumers can help you scale 194 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:36,960 and really build your solutions out for all those people who you are meant and designed to serve. 195 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,560 Alex, this is awesome. 196 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:41,280 If you want to, I'd love to have you back. Is that cool? 197 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,200 Thanks for having me. I'd love to come back. 198 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,160 Great. Awesome. We'll see you guys all in the next episode of Vision Pro's Live. Take care. 199 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:48,480 Thank you for being here today. 200 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,000 I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pro's Live. 201 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,920 I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes continue to move forward. 202 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,600 This is going to get more and more fun. 203 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,480 We'll have more and more engagement as well. 204 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,560 We'll invite people to participate in the show. 205 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:03,920 Thank you for giving us your time and attention. 206 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:17,440 Have an excellent time building out your vision and becoming a Vision Pro yourself.