1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,640 How did you get started on this journey? 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,920 Well, it all started growing up in Princeton, New Jersey 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:13,320 in a big family, going to public school. 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,320 And we have this traveling creative writing teacher 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,560 who had lost a hand in World War II. 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,040 His name was Mr. Doherty. 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,320 And he was amazing. 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,320 He would tell stories about people 9 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,560 in awkward situations in everyday life, 10 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,760 like the kind of stuff everybody deals with being human. 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,320 There we were, age 12, writing about an awkward dance, 12 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,520 about someone who was mean, about horror. 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:38,940 And I thought, all right, that's it. 14 00:00:38,940 --> 00:00:40,080 I want to be a writer. 15 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,080 And I didn't really know how to be a writer at that point. 16 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,640 But I made that decision at that early age. 17 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,360 And then I entered. 18 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:50,400 I went to college. 19 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,360 And I started working at newspapers 20 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,920 to get myself going as a writer and build my career 21 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,880 one small step at a time for the next several decades. 22 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,240 Yes, yes. 23 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,360 I love that. 24 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,920 I mean, that's creative thinking at its best and so young. 25 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,640 I mean, thinking if we had, well, 26 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,400 I haven't been in school in a very long time, 27 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,280 but thinking if we had teachers that open up our children's 28 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,260 mind like that now, that would be amazing. 29 00:01:22,260 --> 00:01:24,720 And I know there are some amazing teachers out there. 30 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,600 Everybody don't start posting that. 31 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,400 I don't think teachers are amazing. 32 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,360 But there's just a big, big difference. 33 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:32,480 Because I had a teacher. 34 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:33,600 His name was Mr. Green. 35 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:34,840 He was amazing. 36 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,480 But I don't know if I hear teachers like that that 37 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:39,440 will allow. 38 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,720 And you can remember their name and say, 39 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,200 this teacher had a part in my life. 40 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,240 That is amazing. 41 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:48,280 I love it. 42 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,080 So tell me about your book. 43 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,440 Well, my book is sort of a linear journey 44 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,360 of how I explored the outdoors from age three 45 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:07,160 when I climbed my first mountain to basically now. 46 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,320 And it includes a lot of awkward growing up situations 47 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,760 where I didn't, you know, girls, adolescent girls, 48 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,840 not liking their body, being in dance class, 49 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,280 having people say you don't look right, 50 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,320 and all that nonsense. 51 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,200 And then I discovered long distance 52 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,080 hiking in my early 20s. 53 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,800 So I describe these journeys. 54 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,840 It's a narrative. 55 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,440 You know, you just roll yourself into the story. 56 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,120 And then I had children. 57 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:40,800 I got married and had children. 58 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,240 I married a guy who I had done a lot of hiking with. 59 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,360 And we still were speaking to each other, 60 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:46,560 which is really nice. 61 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,800 And we had two daughters. 62 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,200 They're now all grown up. 63 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,720 But when those girls were growing up, 64 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,160 and they came home and would say things 65 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,440 that boys had said to them on the playground and said, 66 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:01,840 you know, girls can't do things. 67 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:02,880 They're not strong. 68 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,280 And I felt I had this obligation to teach them 69 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,200 that you can do hard things, be uncomfortable, be cold, 70 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,000 be in a tent, be in the mud, you know, 71 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,040 think you're not going to make it, 72 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,200 and then come out the other end. 73 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,280 So the book talks about some debacles 74 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,600 that I had taking my daughters out, just me and the girls, 75 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:25,800 girls trips. 76 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,760 So there's a whole section about that. 77 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,720 Then I decided in my 50s, I needed to go solo. 78 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,040 So there's a whole section in there of me alone backpacking, 79 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,040 mostly in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, 80 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,760 for anywhere from two to five days at a time, 81 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,240 having to deal with my own demons and everything. 82 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,200 And then finally, the book sort of wraps up 83 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,160 where I come back around to realizing I want 84 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:54,720 to be with other people again. 85 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,480 And that my solo escapades had been a way 86 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,680 to teach me more about how to cooperate in community, which 87 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,840 we have to do in this life. 88 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,960 So that is a whole big journey. 89 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,760 And so on the front there is a picture of, 90 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,720 it's an artist rendering based on a picture of me 91 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:17,960 in the mountains. 92 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,200 And then on the back is an artist rendering 93 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,600 based on my girls in the mountains, 94 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,680 on one of those trips when I dragged them up to the world. 95 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,120 How did they like it? 96 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,160 Well, they were often very quiet and cooperative. 97 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,800 They were interesting children that way. 98 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,000 So like is not necessarily the word I would use. 99 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,200 They were willing to go. 100 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,600 They would get excited when they got to the top of somewhere. 101 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:54,960 They went with me and me and my husband year after year. 102 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,560 And so I think the best word to say 103 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,280 is that they were willing to go through the experience. 104 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:03,680 One of my daughters, when she was pretty young, 105 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,240 announced to me, well, I realize some families go to Disney 106 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,320 World and we go camping. 107 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,400 Yeah, I thought. 108 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,920 I hope social services isn't going to come and take them 109 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,280 away from me. 110 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:20,880 But what the goal was was to teach them 111 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,560 something completely different. 112 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,160 The fact that they were coming home saying those things. 113 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:32,480 And I hear those stories now with my 14 and 10-year-old. 114 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:39,080 And it's very interesting how to keep girls encouraged 115 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,040 and inspired and still feeling strong and still 116 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:44,120 feeling like a woman. 117 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,240 It's a lot. 118 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,160 It's a lot. 119 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,840 I think it's hard to grow up. 120 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,400 It's hard to grow up anyway these days. 121 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,440 But being a girl, especially being born into a female body 122 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,320 and figuring out how you're going to navigate the world, 123 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,520 parents have a real project. 124 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,840 It's a project that we're doing with them. 125 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:05,720 It is definitely a project. 126 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,520 And it's so funny that I'm going to say this on here. 127 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,080 As I went through the holiday season 128 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,520 and we celebrate Christmas, I had an aha moment 129 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:15,120 the other day. 130 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,640 I was like, I raised all of my kids wrong. 131 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,000 Oh, my God. 132 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,280 I think I raised them wrong just a little bit. 133 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:25,520 It's that reflection of what you could have done differently 134 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,400 and how you could have moved differently. 135 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,720 And I now have an opportunity to encourage and do differently. 136 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,640 And what I was meaning in raising them wrong 137 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,720 is they wanted some really expensive gifts. 138 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,200 And I was like, not doing that. 139 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,160 But in the aspects of talking about what you're talking 140 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,880 about, it's truly having that full on discussion 141 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,880 and asking them how they felt about feeling maybe, 142 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,440 I don't want to use the word to put words in other people's 143 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:57,320 head, but feeling a bit inferior to some of the boys at school. 144 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,360 But I love to be part of that. 145 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,560 Kids will ask for expensive stuff. 146 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,680 And they're always going to ask. 147 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,640 They're going to see what will happen. 148 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,080 It's like you responded the right way. 149 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,200 They got one instead of a whole bunch. 150 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,680 But life is very interesting. 151 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,160 And I love the fact that you're utilizing just being out 152 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:22,880 and about in the wilderness. 153 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,320 And I want to ask for you to tell me about your vision 154 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,160 when you decided to make and write this book. 155 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,040 Well, initially, I did not understand what my vision was. 156 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,000 And then a bunch of people helped me write better. 157 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,120 I always try to get help. 158 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,960 I have groups I show things to, people I trust. 159 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,840 I had a writing teacher. 160 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:47,720 You've got to ask. 161 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,480 And so they all said, you don't know what this book's about. 162 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,160 I'm like, what do you mean I don't know 163 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:54,160 what this book's about? 164 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,120 But I didn't. 165 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,120 And so I had to step back and think about it. 166 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,160 And what that did was it led me back to my grandmother, 167 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,440 of all things, realizing watching her when 168 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,480 I was pretty young, I adored her. 169 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,640 She had severe osteoporosis. 170 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,080 She was not allowed to drive a car. 171 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,680 She had never done any of this sort of outdoor stuff. 172 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,000 She had raised her own children and then 173 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,520 her alcoholic sister's child who had been dropped off. 174 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,400 She had to do that stuff. 175 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,480 So in many ways, she didn't have freedom, the kind of freedom 176 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,600 that I fortunately really grew up with. 177 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,080 And then I realized that this book was really, my vision was, 178 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,640 how can a woman learn who she really is, 179 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,400 what she has to offer the world, what I have to offer the world? 180 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,000 And my way of learning that was by repeatedly going back 181 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,160 into the wilds and facing up to my own fears. 182 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,840 And that became my message. 183 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:58,640 I love that. 184 00:08:58,640 --> 00:08:59,600 I love that. 185 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,520 It's crazy how you have this idea 186 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,600 and you begin to write or choose to dive deeply in 187 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,120 and then have to pause to reflect. 188 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,640 And I love that you went all the way back to your grandmother. 189 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,320 A very random question. 190 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,080 What is freedom to you? 191 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,520 What does it feel like to feel free? 192 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,720 Yeah, that is such a great question. 193 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,120 Well, one way I do define freedom in my daily life 194 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,920 is that I have the ability to go where I want to go 195 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,280 and need to go without asking someone else to take me. 196 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:41,440 So I'm not dependent on someone for doing errands. 197 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,240 Freedom is also earning my own money 198 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,440 and contributing to my household equally 199 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,680 with the person I live with, my husband, 200 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:53,800 because so many women in my family 201 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,640 did not have that freedom. 202 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,200 I think that's the biggest way I define freedom, 203 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,080 because I watched my aunts and my grandmother 204 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,920 have to ask for money, have to go places, 205 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,480 and they needed permission to go do things. 206 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:17,920 And I have a marriage that I'll say, 207 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,640 I'm going up to the mountains in August. 208 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,480 I'll be away for a week. 209 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,280 And he says, OK. 210 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,480 That's freedom to me. 211 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:29,320 I love that. 212 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:29,840 I love that. 213 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,880 Thank you for answering that, because it 214 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,240 was definitely very random. 215 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,800 When you said the word, I seen something changing you. 216 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,120 And I was like, ah, what does that feel like? 217 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,120 What does that look like? 218 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,240 And just wanting to hear the descriptive piece to that 219 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:48,280 was amazing. 220 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,480 Thank you. 221 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,120 What personal adventure taught you the most about yourself? 222 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,000 Probably the solo. 223 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,160 There were two solo trips I took. 224 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,600 I took several solo trips. 225 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,400 But there were two in particular that taught me 226 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,320 a lot about what I had in me. 227 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,080 One of them, I was out for four nights, five days, 228 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,080 in the White Mountains. 229 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,200 And the first day, I had to go 11 miles, 230 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,600 and I got rained on pretty early on. 231 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:18,720 And it was June. 232 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,240 It was late June in New Hampshire. 233 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,960 So it was not winter. 234 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,280 And it was not even spring anymore, but it was cold. 235 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:29,840 And I got soaked and cold. 236 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,000 And then when I got above where the trees grow, 237 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,680 above the tree line, in a range called the Bonds, 238 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:39,480 there's this mountain called Bond Cliff and West Bond. 239 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,520 And you're going along, and you look one direction 240 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,440 and see one range, and look another direction, 241 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:44,160 see another range. 242 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,520 And there was nobody with me. 243 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,720 I was completely alone. 244 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,960 And I realized I was in trouble, because I was really cold. 245 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,600 And the wind was blowing. 246 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,600 And I had to get to a certain place by nighttime 247 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,640 so I would be safe. 248 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,120 And I got turned around on one of the mountains. 249 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:04,200 I got confused. 250 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,480 I was so cold enough that I was not paying attention carefully 251 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:08,560 which way I needed to go. 252 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:10,520 I had a mile left to the campsite. 253 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,000 I turned the wrong way and started going back 254 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,040 the way I had come. 255 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,960 And I didn't realize it until I came 256 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,280 to this very strange looking green rock 257 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,560 I had seen on the way up that last mountain. 258 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:23,160 And I thought, what is that green rock? 259 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,600 That is the weirdest green rock I've ever seen. 260 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,240 And I'm thinking to myself, I can't do this. 261 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,080 How am I doing this? 262 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,440 I don't feel so great. 263 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,400 My heart's beating kind of funny. 264 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,120 I realized I was dehydrated and I was cold. 265 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,560 So I realized it later, though. 266 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:42,960 You're asking me, how did I grow through that? 267 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,440 I think that's what you asked me. 268 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:50,560 And what I learned was I had enough experience 269 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,320 at that point, because we had hiked the whole Appalachian 270 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,920 Trail from Georgia to Maine several years before. 271 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,520 I had a lot of experience. 272 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,760 I knew how to keep going. 273 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,360 I understood that you don't sit down and weep, 274 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,440 that you just keep going. 275 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,280 But it was kind of instinctive. 276 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,720 And I was not, ugh. 277 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,560 And so I finally did get where I needed to go. 278 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,360 And then later, I reflected back that I 279 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,320 was doing that on pure instinct. 280 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:27,160 And I had the chance to see that in a situation like that, 281 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,240 I was going to be able to draw on my instincts. 282 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,320 And that was an amazing lesson to learn. 283 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,320 The other thing that I, the other solo trip experience 284 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,360 was this creepy, lonely thing where 285 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:47,720 I ended up down in an abandoned campsite in a wilderness area. 286 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,400 The White Mountains, all over the US, 287 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,000 there are areas that are designated officially 288 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,320 federal wilderness areas. 289 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,120 And there are all kinds of things 290 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,240 they will not do in those areas. 291 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,200 They will not allow structures. 292 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,480 You can't have a lot of signs. 293 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,440 It's supposed to be wild. 294 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,320 So there had been a campsite, but the Forest Service 295 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,640 had dismantled it, which was creepy, creepy, creepy. 296 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,200 There were piles of lumber around. 297 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,440 And somebody had tried to build a shelter, roughly, 298 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,280 using the stuff that was left. 299 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,880 It was like a ghost town. 300 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:24,040 And I'm alone there. 301 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,480 And nobody else is there. 302 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,720 And I was just creeped out. 303 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:35,360 I had this counter with a large, they're called snowshoe hares. 304 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,000 They look like giant rabbits. 305 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,040 And they're very elusive. 306 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,840 And they come out at dusk because they 307 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,800 know they're going to get eaten by something. 308 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,120 And I'm like, ah. 309 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:50,800 And so I learned you can be really scared, 310 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,840 out of your mind scared, and you will survive. 311 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,760 I had this visitation from my dead father 312 00:14:58,760 --> 00:14:59,920 in the middle of the night. 313 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:01,880 I'm like, Dad, and woo. 314 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,240 And then in the morning, I got up 315 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,720 and I bumbled over to this horrible thing 316 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,600 that somebody had built to make a shelter. 317 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,600 And I crept inside. 318 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,480 And there's an old bottle of whiskey sitting in the corner. 319 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,320 And I said, why am I doing this? 320 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:21,960 Out loud, I said, why am I doing this? 321 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,840 And then I realized, I'm doing this 322 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,280 because I'm going to get through it. 323 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,360 And I am doing this because I'm living with my own choices. 324 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:35,720 That's really what it was. 325 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,440 No one else wanted me to do this. 326 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,080 This is my choice. 327 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,760 So I'm just going to get water. 328 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,960 I'm going to make myself some coffee. 329 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,240 And then I'm going to walk up that ridge. 330 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,360 And it was like a really freeing feeling, 331 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,400 even though I thought, God, I can't wait to get out 332 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,360 of this weird place. 333 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:52,880 Yes. 334 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,160 I tell you, that's a true example of overcoming fear 335 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,680 because Christy, Jebanca would have found the nearest vehicle. 336 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,520 Well, there were no vehicles. 337 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:06,520 But I know. 338 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,280 I mean, I wouldn't have made it. 339 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,080 No, and that's amazed at what you could do, though. 340 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,240 That's the cool thing. 341 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:13,720 In my mind, no, Christy. 342 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:14,560 Oh, no. 343 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,680 I mean, it sounded so much like a movie. 344 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,600 I forgot I was literally on a podcast. 345 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:21,600 I'm like, what? 346 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,760 And then what next? 347 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:23,880 Absolutely not. 348 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,920 But would I be willing? 349 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,920 Absolutely. 350 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,880 Because I believe that some of the things that you're 351 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,960 describing are often some of the things people say 352 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,240 that they can't do, won't do. 353 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,520 But those are the things that will probably 354 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,240 teach us the biggest lessons, not about the world, 355 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,440 but more so about ourselves, like digging deep inside 356 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,720 of a place that we had no clue in order to survive, 357 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,880 but also not even just that, choosing to go. 358 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,040 And that's what you did. 359 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:53,000 You chose to go. 360 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,760 You chose to make it through. 361 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,560 And hey, that's courage at its highest, 362 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,440 overcoming fear at its highest. 363 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:02,240 Yeah. 364 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:03,360 Yeah, thank you for that. 365 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,640 I mean, I think that's what courage is. 366 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,800 It's managing fear. 367 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:09,760 Yeah. 368 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,680 And interesting enough, with the experiences that you've had, 369 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,520 how can people overcome their fears 370 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,200 and step into situations and nature-based challenges 371 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,360 like you've done? 372 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:23,720 How can they try to do it the way I did? 373 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,760 Or how would I suggest anyone? 374 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,040 Yeah, what would you suggest? 375 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,040 Because see, your experience, and I 376 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,080 believe having daughters that were willing to do 377 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,960 what you've done, there's more of us like that. 378 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:36,840 You know what I mean? 379 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,960 And so these are things that are overcoming fear. 380 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,560 And for some people, it's like, you know what? 381 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,560 Pretty much what I just said. 382 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:45,880 I can't do that. 383 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,600 And that should not have been the mindset that I have. 384 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,480 I think it's more so I cannot imagine doing that. 385 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,000 So to the people that are watching this, 386 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,080 I could do anything. 387 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,040 However, that was my first stop. 388 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,000 So Christy, please help encourage someone else 389 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,880 to overcome their fear and to build courage. 390 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,720 Well, I think it's really good to identify 391 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:17,200 when something out in the world that we encounter 392 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,120 elicits a strong reaction in us, like, oh my god, 393 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:21,520 I could never do that. 394 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,640 And I think that if you find yourself saying that 395 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,960 to yourself, you should listen to that. 396 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,240 What do you mean? 397 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,120 Why is that the thing that you said, 398 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,960 I could never do that? 399 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,520 There could be reasonable answers 400 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:35,720 for why you couldn't do that. 401 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,480 I mean, for example, if somebody has a really bad fear of heights, 402 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,360 they probably should not become a technical climber 403 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,320 or become a bridge painter. 404 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,800 But I would say that can be a clue to how to grow a little bit. 405 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,320 And it also, fear can be a little bit related 406 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,880 to what might become a passion. 407 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,040 So somebody might be like, I always wanted to learn the guitar, 408 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,880 but I'm afraid to try because somebody told me I had a 10 year, 409 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,400 some ill-advised teacher told me that. 410 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,400 So I would say listen to those little clues 411 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,280 and then try something. 412 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:19,240 And in terms of the wilderness kind of experiences I have, 413 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:20,520 go out with others. 414 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,520 Find an organization like the Appalachian Mountain Club 415 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,240 that publishes the journal I edit, 416 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,880 and also was my publisher of this book. 417 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,680 They have guided trips. 418 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:31,440 They have guides. 419 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:32,280 They teach people. 420 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,120 They have really helpful books people can get. 421 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,160 So try to learn a few things. 422 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,160 Learn how to use the gear that we need, 423 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:46,120 flashlights, tents, tarps, getting the right clothing, staying warm, 424 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,920 what do you do for food, all that. 425 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,560 Try it. 426 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,880 Try a night out or two. 427 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,360 And try it with other people. 428 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,440 Then try it by yourself. 429 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,760 You know those old TV shows where kids would get all excited about camping 430 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,880 and then they'd go camp in the backyard, 431 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,720 and then by 2 in the morning they all go in the house? 432 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,360 Yep. 433 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:12,800 That's a great experience, just to even make it to 2 in the morning 434 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,800 and know what it feels like to lie on the ground. 435 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,560 Those things, that's how you try. 436 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,760 And then when I would take the kids camping, of course, 437 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,880 we couldn't go into the house in the middle of the night 438 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,760 because we were miles away from civilization 439 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,120 and we had to keep going and get through it. 440 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:33,440 And that's a good experience too. 441 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:33,920 Yeah. 442 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:34,640 Yeah. 443 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,280 Step by step. 444 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:37,280 That's it. 445 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,840 And just like you said, going out in the backyard and trying to camp 446 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,640 and being close to home, that might be a great start. 447 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,960 So Chris, what are your future plans? 448 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:52,280 What's next for you to inspire and encourage women to dive 449 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,120 into nature-based things or just to find themselves 450 00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,960 and be able to find power within themselves? 451 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,480 What's next for you? 452 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:09,520 Well, I am working on a book about my New Jersey ancestors. 453 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,200 And I am descended, on my father's side, 454 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,080 from people who lived in New Jersey for 200 plus years 455 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,920 and were small farmers. 456 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,560 And they struggled. 457 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,480 They didn't have a lot of money. 458 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,640 My great grandfather was always selling off his stuff 459 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,600 and then rebuilding. 460 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,560 And so I'm trying to tell the story of people 461 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,320 who have been forgotten in history. 462 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,880 Because once the really big farms came in down there 463 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,600 and started doing frozen food and these giant blueberry farms 464 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:49,080 and stuff, the small timers, that whole world of them, 465 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,520 kind of faded away. 466 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,800 And I want to bring that back because I'm 467 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,680 so fascinated with the power of ordinary people, what 468 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,240 ordinary people can accomplish and how they survive. 469 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,600 And my father, who, so my grandfather, 470 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:06,960 it was the last one who was there, 471 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,280 and he left when he got married. 472 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,160 And then my father grew up in Trenton, New Jersey, 473 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,960 and never experienced the farm. 474 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,760 But he would hear about it from his dad. 475 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,720 He never took us down there. 476 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,080 They never talked about it except to say, 477 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,600 my father would say they never did anything down there. 478 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,360 They never accomplished anything. 479 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:28,720 And so I'm just curious. 480 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,360 So I'm working on that. 481 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:35,520 And I think that speaks to the strength of women and men who 482 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,640 were faced with marginal circumstances 483 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,480 and had to find a way to keep going. 484 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,040 And I've also started writing some fiction. 485 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,400 I published my first fiction story 486 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,160 this year about a trail runner in a small fiction anthology. 487 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,720 And I'm going to experiment more with that 488 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,880 and see where that takes me. 489 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,480 I've been teaching as well. 490 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,120 I do a little teaching at the University of Connecticut. 491 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:04,080 And I look at my students. 492 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,840 They're all learning how to be writers and journalists. 493 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,040 And some of them are majoring in other things. 494 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,440 And I always ask myself, what can I do? 495 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,600 What do they need? 496 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:17,960 How can I help them be better? 497 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,320 Thank you for being here today. 498 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,800 I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. 499 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,920 I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these 500 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,680 episodes continue to move forward. 501 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,400 This is going to get more and more fun. 502 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,320 We'll have more and more engagement as well. 503 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,360 We'll invite people to participate in the show. 504 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,720 And thank you for giving us your time and attention. 505 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,440 Have an excellent time building out your vision 506 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:44,800 and becoming a Vision Pro yourself.