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Please tell me more about your business and your consulting and coaching business, please.

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Yeah.

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So business-wise, there's two different things.

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So I do resilience in the individual couple and group space, as I mentioned, but I also

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do resilience work in the institutional and systemic place, and I'll speak to that in

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a moment.

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I'm 30 years, almost 30 years as a psychotherapist, licensed in the state of California, transpersonal

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specialization to postgraduate training in somatic or body psychology.

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For the last 20, almost, actually this is 2025, 25 years, I stopped doing therapy and

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I started doing coaching.

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Okay.

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And I can explain that if you're interested at some point why I did the transfer.

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And part of the last 25 years, I spent about a decade as a master coach at SealFit, helping

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them run a wide variety of their programs.

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It's a company founded by retired Navy SEAL commander Mark Devine.

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I spent almost five years at Spartan 7, which is also a Navy SEAL run company, Dan Cirilla,

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who unfortunately passed away a couple years ago.

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So I've been fortunate to spend a lot of time in the special operations space, working with

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those kind of folks.

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And a lot of that informs my work with resilience.

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But part of resilience is not just physical capacity, like mental toughness, emotional

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resilience, physical capacity.

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But JC Glick and I, who I mentioned, we run a men's group, we talk about resilience 2.0,

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which I can talk, explain to you if you're interested in learning more about.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So, so, so, okay, cool.

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So it's really important that human beings, especially men, since we work with men, are

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physically capable of doing whatever they need to do to provide and protect in their

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families and their communities, etc, etc.

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But that's not enough.

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We also think that resiliency 2.0 is the ability, in this case of men, but all humans, because

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what we work with men, so I just speak to men, to be able to be resilient in their own

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system, meaning they're able to sit in their own discomfort.

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A lot of men, but also human beings, seek distractions from their own feelings, their

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own thoughts, their own sensations, drugs, porn, alcohol, Netflix, you know, YouTube,

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Instagram, whatever they do, like to just work, work out harder, work more hours.

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So we teach our men how to sit in their own experience because inside the physical body,

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thoughts, feelings, sensations, energetics of the body, is very valuable information

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that we actually should allow to emerge and to process to deal with more effectively.

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Because if you don't deal with it, it comes out sideways, either as health conditions

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or passive aggressive behavior or aggressive behavior, whatever happens to be.

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So one of three pillars for us is literally learning to sit in your own experience.

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And I'll see if you have any questions before I hit the second pillar of that.

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No, no, I'm listening.

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Definitely.

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Okay, cool.

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And then, you know, we work with a lot of married men and we'll just use heterosexual

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as a heterosexual couple as an example.

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It's not limited to that, but we just say a heterosexual couple.

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And what we teach our men is how to sit in the relationship with their female partner

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in such a way that serves their wife.

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A lot of men have a tendency and a lot of humans have a tendency, a lot of men have

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a tendency to feel uncomfortable if their partner feels uncomfortable and want to solve

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their problem as quickly as possible because it makes the man feel uncomfortable.

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We teach our men it's not about you being uncomfortable.

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Be aware of that.

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That's important.

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But the more important question is what does your wife need from you at that time?

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Maybe she just needs you to listen.

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Maybe she does need you to help her solve a particular problem.

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Maybe there's a third or fourth or fifth option, but you need to be comfortable enough

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in your own human system, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, that you can hold the space for

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your wife to show up as she shows up and be there for her.

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The resilience is like interpersonal resilience, being strong enough in that system that you

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show up for your wife as she needs you to be.

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That's the second pillar.

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I do have a question.

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It might be obvious, but what was the reason for focusing strictly with men?

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So personally, I work with men and women in my individual and obviously with my couples

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too.

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But the men's group, that's a great question because J.C. Glick and I, we've noticed that

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a lot of men seemingly have the inability, not the capacity, not the skills to really

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show up fully in their lives.

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We have to be guys, we spend a lot of time with the guys.

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We just kind of notice in these things like, wow, our men need a lot of help.

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Not to say that women don't need help too, but we just happen to notice that a lot of

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men seem to need a lot more help than we thought they needed.

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So we're like, we need to create an effort.

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In this case, this is a men's group that would just focus on a man to help the men.

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So if you help the men, then you help their children and you help their wives or depending

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on their husbands, I mean, depending on what the relationship is.

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But like, you help them, you help the community around them.

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Yes, yes, yes.

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So we just decided to focus on the men because that's the signals we're getting from the

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environment.

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Across the board, though, it seems like you're focusing on resilience rather with couples,

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rather with men, and it seems like other businesses that you have.

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Matt asks, what's the reason for that word specifically?

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Resilience.

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Yeah, it's a word that's kind of driven.

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Like, if you know, my history is kind of driven my life.

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It is one of those things where I'm like, I'm really interested in.

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There's a saying, you fall down seven times, get up eight.

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And I'm always interested in like, why do some people when there's adversity that they

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face, they seem to grow and evolve, adapt and learn from it.

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And others seem to collapse.

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And that's always been an interest to me.

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And no judgment if someone collapses and retreats and doesn't do so well in facing adversity.

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It's like, oh, but why?

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And is it possible to help people train up their skills and inner capacities and their

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character traits and their mindset and their nervous system in such a way that when life

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throws things at them, whatever it happens to be, the adversities that come through life,

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that they're able to not only take them on successfully, but use them as kind of a fuel

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for their own growth.

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And I've been exploring that for forever.

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And that's kind of drives a lot.

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If you know me, it drives a lot of my work that I do for personally things that I'll

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do.

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But it's also kind of driven me like memetically for the last 30, 40 years in terms of like

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what I want to help other people be able to accomplish in their lives, you know, recognize

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that they're pretty limitless.

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They can have unbeatable minds that they can take on these adversities and really grow

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and be the kind of person they really want to be and not limited by culture or their

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mindset or the family of origin out of fear and insecurities.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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So it's definitely a part of your story.

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And since that's what drove you and has driven you to get to a space and place where you're

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at, then I see that you're paying it forward.

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I love that.

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Yes.

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I love that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Paying it forward.

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I really like that.

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Absolutely.

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But I tell you, when you do learn those lessons, I've always said this life isn't about me.

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You know, why go through what I go through if I don't share and give it to someone else?

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And so you're doing exactly what is necessary.

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And then I think that most people, you know, you're you're an expert, right?

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And you've done your I'm sure your research and everything else in degrees, but then the

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experience.

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Oh, man.

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X on top of X.

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Oh, exciting.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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So right now, currently, where are you at in what you're doing?

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Mostly are you focusing mostly with your with your couples and resilience or the group or

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is everybody getting the same amount of time?

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Well, there's actually four things and there's actually a fifth coming down the pike.

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I'm I'm very driven by like novelty and excitement with new things and like trying new things

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and things like that.

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So I'll say like my individual work, I have a six month program that's kind of holistic

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in orientation, four pillars, physiological, psychological, social, environmental, do a

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deep dive to really create the conditions for someone to grow themselves.

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I love that because I love working individuals and seeing them grow over time.

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Our couples I love because it's so real, you can you can see the both the tension in the

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room as they try to work through these things.

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But what's possible for them as they open their heart and deepen their connections and

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be more intimate.

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It's a beautiful thing.

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The men's group.

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I'm like saying I love all these things.

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So they're getting all my equal time.

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The men's group is awesome because I watched these men grow and we get to see the men bond

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with each other and support one another, which is so needed in our society.

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There's not a lot of opportunities for men to bond, except for maybe in sports, which

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is OK, or watching sports, which is OK, or going to the bar.

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I questions about that.

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But like there's not a lot of opportunities for men.

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They really bond deeply and kind of emotional, mental and spiritual levels.

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So we need more of those, whether it's men's groups or church or synagogue or whatever

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it is.

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But like opportunities for people to come together to do good stuff together.

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And then so those are things get a lot of my attention.

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And colleagues and I just launched what's called Team Foodishen as a list last year.

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And this is a place for people who want to do really hard things to come together to

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train for them, to get community, to get support.

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And when I say training for hard things, the example would be last year we did a 50 mile

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go rock and we had people all across the country that we helped train up and support and we

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held each other accountable and support one another.

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And we're doing this coming year, we're going to do other things like that.

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And then we're going to be launching our own in collaboration with other groups and organizations

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and companies.

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So like I like to do really hard physical things.

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So it's nice to have a place to go play with some really cool people doing really hard

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physical things.

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So that's a fourth thing that's grabbing my attention.

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And I'll just stop there.

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You said there's five.

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I'm here.

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OK, so I mentioned resilience in the individual couple and group space, but also in the individual

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group, institutional and systems space.

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So I spent 20 years doing public policy, mostly at the national security level, but also the

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policy, foreign affairs, defense reform, cybersecurity, things along those lines.

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And I retired from it almost four or five years ago.

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And there's a strong chance I've been asked to come back and do some work in our space

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in 2025, which are it's nice to have a break from it.

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But I'm excited to kind of go back because there's so many things happening in the world

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that I think if we had more resilient institutions and systems in place that we could be more

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adaptive and deal with them much more effectively and efficiently.

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I get that.

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I get that.

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And when you five things across the board from your experience and your expertise, resilience,

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as you work in these five things, tell me about your vision.

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Yeah, so I think my vision came from when I was a little kid where I would look at situations

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I found myself in and I'd say they don't make any sense to me in the sense like I understand

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why people do what they do, including myself, driven by insecurities and fears.

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But I also for some reason had the ability to see what was possible outside of the frameworks

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we operated in, even as a little kid.

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And I was like, we do this, but this is possible.

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How do we get here?

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And that's literally been driving my whole life.

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Like I learned meditation when I was nine.

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I learned guided imagery.

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I learned biofeedback when I was nine.

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I got into martial arts.

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So I was fortunate to kind of get into this space of like, oh, we can manage our nervous

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systems.

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We can evolve our consciousness.

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We can do things differently.

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And like, wow, okay, that's awesome.

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But we don't we do this over here.

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How do we transition from these limited models and ways of being in the world to like this

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more expansive models and ways of being in the world?

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And literally that's the question I've been asking.

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And that's been driving all my life and my work for a long time.

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And it's interesting.

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So before I got on with you, I was speaking to an individual who's a physician and she

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talks about trauma and and our childhood and things like that.

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And so I love when I hear people go back all the way to their childhood to realize now

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at whatever age we are, young age we are to realize how it set us up for something completely

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different.

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You know?

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And so who knew that you would be focusing completely on resilience in five different

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areas, but they all have relation.

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I think that that's just really good to be able to reflect and.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Can I speak to the trauma for a moment?

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Absolutely.

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So in my graduate work, I did study pre preimperonatal psychology.

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So like, you know, how from the moment of conception to the post birth, like, you know,

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how the fetus evolves over time, both mentally, emotionally, as well as physically, and the

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conditions necessary for optimizing health psychologically and physically.

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And so just going back, it's really interesting because if you look at how we do things that

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we do them counter to how nature or God intended them to be for the most part, medical intervention

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society, because sometimes you actually do need a medical intervention.

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But like birth is, you know, natural childbirth to the vagina, breastfeeding, as an example,

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was what God or nature intended us to do because it you the bonding of the baby with the mother,

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the proper feed, like the proper food, not artificial stuff created in the factory, the

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vaginal birth gives the microbiome for the skin and comes into the body of the baby.

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So they actually have natural immunity over time.

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You know, those things, if we start paying attention to and, and supporting how nature

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intended things to be would be a great first start to get us healthier and happier from

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moment one moving forward.

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So people need less of people like me, like, you don't need therapists, you don't necessarily

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need coaches, we can be helpful.

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But like, if we can, we can prevent the traumas in the first place, or reduce the consequences

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of traumas, I think that's a much better way to go.

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And then looking at institutions and systems, we can question like our food.

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Is it really food?

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Not really.

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It's like, what is this stuff?

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And we can do a deep dive into that if you wanted to.

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Our education system does actually educate people.

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Well, maybe not.

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It's more of an indoctrination system.

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So like, there's, there's ways of looking at our institutions, ask the questions, like,

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do they actually serve a pro-sociality effect?

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Yeah, yeah, I would say a lot of them necessarily don't.

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But that's a different conversation.

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You know, interesting you say that, because my mind just goes, and I know that it all

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definitely starts from there.

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And then, you know, moving forward, and we get to where we are.

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Do you think that we would have the experience to be able to educate those that did not have

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that opportunity, you know, at the beginning?

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And I just love how life works, right?

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And I know it's hard, right?

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Life gets hard at times.

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And I'm sure you and I and anyone else watching this can attest to that.

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But I tell you, it's in the storms that develops someone like yourself to give away and pay

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it forward of what you are learning.

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So I definitely agree with that.

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But I think that would definitely be in a perfect world.

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But I know that the work that you're doing is so needed, especially, I hate to say it,

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not not being sexist, but with the men, right, because those are the providers, those are

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the protectors, those are the and and, and stating, not for everyone, but in my mindset

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and the lifestyle that I live.

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That's what I've been taught.

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So having, yeah, having them to sit in a group and have that discussion.

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So I really, really, even speaking about trauma and things like that.

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It's, it's a lot.

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It's a lot, but it's it's awesome because like you, Michael, we all get through it.

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And then we find a group that's amazing.

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And I really do want to know what was one of your significant learning experiences?

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Yeah, so I would say quite a few, but I'll just name one.

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So I mentioned I work, I work for CELFIT, Founded by retired Navy SEAL Commander Mark

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Devine before I before I work for them.

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My wife at the time when I was 39 said, what do you want to do for your birthday?

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She's expecting me to say, go to the islands and have a good time in the Caribbean somewhere.

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And I'm like, I want to go train the Navy SEALs.

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So I found a program called CELFIT at the time where they train pre buds candidates,

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young men who want to go Navy Special Warfare.

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I was 39.

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I wasn't going to go Navy Special Warfare or even the Navy.

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But I was like, I'm going to do that and see what I'm capable of.

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And so it's a program that lasted almost four weeks is called the three week soft academies

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close to four weeks.

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And on the tail end of it, we did what's called Kokoro camp, which means Kokoro means indomitable

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spirit.

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It's a Japanese term, but it's modeled after Navy SEAL Hell Week.

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It's 50 hours instead of five days, no sleep.

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You just train for 50 hours in different environments from the beach, the mountains to the grinder

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in the ocean.

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All it was fun.

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But so I did, I did the three weeks soft Academy, I trained up with some amazing young men all

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became SEALs, like is a great group of people.

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And then I did the 50 hour Kokoro camp.

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And the lessons I learned were invaluable.

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The lessons and then Mark eventually brought me back on to help run various programs for

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him.

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But the lessons I learned just going through that was we have amazing young men in our

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country.

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There are moments where I'm like, oh my God, like what are we doing?

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And that with our people and our culture, I just have a lot of questions around that.

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Like, oh my God, are we going to be able to survive some of the challenges we face?

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But being around some of these men, I'm like, okay, there's going to be men and women who

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are going to be able to stand up and do the right thing and lead us through the darkness.

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So that made me feel much better about the world we live in.

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Secondarily, training with these guys, I got to see what I'm capable of.

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Like we, you know, we train, you know, we literally started training at 520 in the morning.

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We finished about 730 at night.

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And then sometimes they wake us up around 1 a.m. the morning to go do fun things in

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the ocean.

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So I was able to see like I'm capable of doing what Mark would say 20 times more than I thought

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it was.

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Like physically capable, mentally capable, emotionally capable, spiritually capable.

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That is awesome.

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And then I remember one experience where one of the CO cadre, Brad, Brad was spraying with

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water.

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And that's part of the whole thing, sprayed with water.

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Like why are you doing some kind of push ups or squats or whatever you're doing?

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And I have asthma and I started panicking because I couldn't breathe.

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I'm used to not being able to breathe and it brings panic in me.

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And there was a moment there that I'm like, wait, I can manage this.

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Like I calmed my system down and instead of like panicking because I couldn't breathe

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because of sucking the water, I'm like, I'm thirsty.

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I just started drinking the water and started smiling.

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And Brad stopped because he saw that I got it.

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I learned the lesson that I'm able to manage or master my own nervous system.

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So like that's another lesson I learned from this whole process, more like self mastery

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and self management too.

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And that was really cool.

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And you say cool and fun.

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And as my facial expression say it all, I'm like, fun?

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Okay.

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That was perception.

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But I'm like, what way to put yourself in something that lets you know that you can

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handle whatever you put your mind to?

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Resilience at its finest, right?

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You just said it is to put yourself in situations and that's pretty, it seems like that's what

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people are most fear.

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It's putting themselves in situations like that.

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And I really like that you do all these five things and although they may seem like five

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separate things, it's the same Michael across the board.

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I appreciate that.

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That's great.

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And let me speak to like the hard physical challenges, like people being afraid to do

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those kinds of things.

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When I work with clients, like some of them want to do really hard, cool stuff.

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That's awesome, physically, but for some, that's not even the hardest thing.

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Like having an honest, open, vulnerable conversation with your wife.

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Some people would rather go climb a physical mountain than literally have that conversation

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or that same conversation with their parents who are getting older or a boss or their underlings

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or their children.

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So being resilient is not just doing really cool, hard physical stuff.

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It's like, hey, can I be strong enough to sit and talk to my wife or these other people?

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I can be even harder than other physical things.

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Well, I guess you said it.

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It's different hearts for everyone.

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And like I said, there's sometimes you just don't want to put yourself in those situations

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and fear keeps you back from everything.

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And I was just reading something that I wrote not too long ago.

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I want to jump so that I know I can fly.

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I like that.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's the fear, you know, is jumping because the assumption is to fall.

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But if you say I'm going to fly, then you'll fly, you know, manifest all these things.

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I love that.

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That's good.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yes.

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Well, I have one last question because I see you smile and I see the passion in you.

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What are the greatest joys of what you do?

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Wow.

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So I'll limit it to my work with couples, although I can say the same thing about my

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other programs and projects I work on.

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I love it when I can see a couple like their heart is armored and they're having a really

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difficult time engaging with another their their traumas are emerging, they're being

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triggered, their old patterns are coming up and they do what they do.

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It's just not working.

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And then when they had that breakthrough, and they can have compassion for themselves

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in a deeper way, they can have empathy for their partner, they can have a deeper understanding

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of why their partner does what they do.

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And kind of the heart armor drops for both of them and they connect in a much more loving,

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caring, intimate way.

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That that brings a huge smile on my face like, wow, okay, that is that is like, awesome.

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Thank you for being here today.

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I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live.

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I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes continue to move forward.

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It's going to get more and more fun, we'll have more and more engagement as well.

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We'll invite people to participate in the show.

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And thank you for giving us your time and attention.

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Have an excellent time building out your vision and becoming a Vision Pro yourself.