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Well, please share with me more details about your book.

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All right.

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So the issues of human free will is something we've been talking about for centuries and

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arguing back and forth.

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I really tried to take a fresh look at it more from a science point of view.

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Arguing about the philosophical issues is not something we can do experiments on, but

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it strikes me, I've talked to many scientists who accept the idea of free will and many

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who say no, no, there could not be any such thing.

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And what strikes me is they have the same understanding of how behavior is produced.

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They both believe even that the human mental system by which our minds and brain cause

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us behavior, that this is unique in the world.

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No other animal has anything like this with understood moral responsibility and laws and

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governments and economic systems and all these complicated things that we do.

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So they're just arguing about whether this marvelous newly evolved evolutionary system

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deserves to be called free will.

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So that's the terminological issue I'm trying to get to.

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Let's understand the scientific problem is how does this marvelous thing work?

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What sets us apart from the other animals?

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One for example is we can project into the future and simulate, well if I do this it

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will lead to this and then they'll do that and then this and so on.

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And ultimately, oh no, I don't want it to end up that way.

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So how about if I do something else and then they'll react this way and so on.

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Project these multiple simulations of the future and then bring the result back to the

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present and use it to guide our behavior.

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Being able to do that certainly makes you freer than if you're not able to have this

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kind of thinking.

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So that's one important advance and understanding how the human mind integrates across time,

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that's one aspect of it.

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Another is that ideas can cause behavior that we change how we act based on abstract understanding

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of moral principles or as I said just the laws of the land or promises you made a long

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time ago or religious ideas or political ideals.

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So that's another advance that makes us freer in our actions than animals who cannot do

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any such thing.

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In my own lab work, what led me into it was the limited willpower finding.

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I called it in the scientific literature, it's called ego depletion.

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And it shows that after you – willpower is – there is such an energy resource in

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the self and after you use it, say by resisting temptation or making some hard decisions or

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whatever, then you have a bit less for a while so that's a time of vulnerability and you

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might give into temptation or let someone talk you into something or do something that

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you might regret later on.

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So that was sort of the lead in for me.

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If you read the philosophy books about free will, they talk about self-control is important

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and they talk about rational choice of making good decisions, that's important too.

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But they had no way of showing these two are connected because philosophers just work with

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ideas and theories very carefully.

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Whereas we in the psychology laboratory, we can show that after you make a lot of decisions,

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your self-control is worse and vice versa.

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After you exert self-control, you start making decisions in a more casual, superficial manner

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leading to not doing what's really best for you in the long run.

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So that's the kind of thing we feature in the book.

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To give a people idea in practice, the moral agent is one.

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We all do that.

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We know what's right and wrong.

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We don't always do it right but often we do.

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We let those things influence us.

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If we're going to go on something more questionable, we think about how can we justify it and explain

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it to other people, things like that.

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Economic marketplace is another thing unique to humans where we exchange money.

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And Matt Ridley in his recent book said this is not a new thing.

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Trade is 10 times older than farming.

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We think farming is the dawn of civilization 10 or 12,000 years ago and to think 10 times

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that old, 100,000 years ago, there's evidence that humans were already trading things.

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So economic agent has to understand ideas of quantity, how many fish for how many beaver

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pelts or whatever it is that you're trading.

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It's a form of cooperation.

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We forget that.

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It's easy to think well in the marketplace.

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The seller wants a higher price.

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The buyer wants a lower price.

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So they're fighting back and forth.

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But what we miss out in that is that they're both better off.

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The seller wants to sell, the buyer wants to buy.

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And if they can find a place where their acceptable prices overlap, they're both happy.

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They're both better off.

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Human evolution, the basis of my thinking is a human mind was made by nature for culture.

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It was created by evolution, of course.

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But the way we evolved was to organize our society with these things like economic marketplaces

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and moral systems, cooperation and communication are the two ways that the human mind is really

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far advanced from any other animals.

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It's obvious with communication, all human societies have language.

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Nobody's ever found an exception.

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And no animals have anything that lingers to say, okay, that counts as a language.

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They do bark and squawk and then they communicate a little bit with each other, but nothing

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like a human language.

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So this is one of the essential features that makes us human.

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And culture is a system for communicating and cooperating.

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Like I said, the marketplace, they're both better off if they can trade.

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Yes, yes.

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And the book's name is The Science of World Power and Self-Control.

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Is that correct?

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It's called The Science of Free Will.

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The Science of Free Will.

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Okay, my apologies.

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I apologize.

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I actually had an earlier book called Willpower that I wrote with John Tierney, who is the

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New York Times science writer.

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And the book was actually a bestseller and was on the New York Times charts for a dozen,

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a couple months, Amazon and so on.

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So that really summarized our scientific work about self-control and limited willpower.

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So the free will thing is it's taking the argument a big step further, saying, what

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does this tell us about the basic nature of the human mind?

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Okay.

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And when you decided to write these books, tell me about your vision.

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Okay.

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So you don't actually mean my eyes.

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I can see those.

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Okay.

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I was saying I had the laser.

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No, you mean like the idea vision.

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Absolutely.

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Well, the exciting thing about a problem like free will is it's one of the classic debates

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and it goes to what kind of creatures are we?

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And given the unusual career I've had in psychology, I think I'm in an unusually good position

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to really ask and try to answer some of those questions.

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So because I've studied many different areas of psychology.

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I write what scientists call literature reviews where instead of doing an experiment yourself,

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which might take a year, you go and read all the experiments that other people have done

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and try to put them together and you can address big questions like that.

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So what is the essence of being human?

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That's one of those.

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And certainly whether we have free will in the sense we can choose to act differently

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in the same situation and alter and adjust our behavior including based on ideas and

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how we imagine the future, things like that.

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That's really an important aspect of the human mind.

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So that's the vision was to really try to understand that.

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I'm sorry.

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I'm sorry.

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My security guard is barking.

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One more.

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All right.

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So we're back on.

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My sincere apology.

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I'm so sorry.

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Of course that will be edited out and everything else.

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We were of course speaking about your book, The Signs of Free Will.

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And we were just talking about how we as humans can utilize free will, willpower to actually

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direct us into where we're going or how we see life.

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That's what I took from our discussion because I realized that we don't normally think about

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things like that.

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I think we're just doers.

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We're not really sitting here thinking about things like that.

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And when you decided to write this book and the other book that you have written, what

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more do you want us to learn or people to learn or even the viewers to learn about this?

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Well the limited aspect of willpower is important to understand and to manage.

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I'm getting someone just on a bad test.

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Let me.

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We got it.

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We're all over the place today, Roy.

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How are we?

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I know.

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I know.

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My friend from France has been trying to call me.

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So let's go back to what else do people want to know.

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It's clear as you said, good self-control and rational decision making, enlightened

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self-interest, all of these help you to live a better life and to be more successful.

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Early in my career for example, I studied self-esteem because there was a period when

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we thought the big problem in life is people don't have enough self-esteem and that makes

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them not take chances or whatever.

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But that didn't work out very well.

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Self-esteem is more a result of success in life than a cause of it.

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It makes you take a more optimistic spin.

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If you have high self-esteem, you like yourself better but you don't actually do any better.

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Whereas self-control, very much the opposite.

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Self-control measured early leads to success later.

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There are these studies in Britain where they track thousands and thousands of people over

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many years and the kids who are rated as having better self-control by their teachers when

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they were nine years old end up having a better employment history as adults and being less

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likely to be cigarette addicted smokers and various other things.

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Earn more money in life, more popular, better relationships.

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So I came away from all that with my advice to parents and teachers and coaches and things

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that forget about self-esteem, concentrate on building self-control.

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That's really what produces the best results in the long run.

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Roy, I'm so eager to ask you with all of these words and self-control and willpower and everything

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that you're saying, how does that play a part now that social media is all in our faces?

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Yes, well, a lot of us are thinking about that.

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Things have been changing so fast.

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We don't have all the data and all the information that we want but I think people are making

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a pretty good case that the sustained attention is much more difficult.

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It's more of what they call the monkey mind.

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It jumps around because you're always getting things clamoring for your attention and anytime

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you get bored for a moment, you can go onto your phone and check your social media presence

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or play games or text some friends or do email.

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So you're always involved.

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I'm writing a big review article on that where we've been reading lots and lots of the scientific

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studies.

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The idea which seems to be holding up is that the human self, the psychological aspect,

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isn't fully there when you interact online as much as when you're interacting with a

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person face to face.

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We spend a lot of time engaged in social interaction when we're physically alone, right, since

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that's what I'm doing now.

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Nobody else here but we're communicating.

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I spend a couple hours a day on email which is even less.

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Here you and I can at least look at each other's pictures of our faces and respond in real

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time whereas email, you send it off and somebody might respond tomorrow or maybe not until

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next week.

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So there's less engagement.

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It makes people somewhat less inhibited.

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So when you're not in person, people are more likely to bring up a lot of other ideas and

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criticize and so on.

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But the ideas tend to be of lower quality and you're just throwing out a lot more stuff.

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I think people are starting to realize too that the physical safety feeling from interacting

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online is compensated for a great deal of danger.

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If you say the wrong thing or write the wrong thing, it will stay out there forever.

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I spent this past semester at Harvard and there's some news stories about people who

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were accepted.

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It's a big moment in a kid's life to get accepted to the very best universities in

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the world and then they found out that they said something objectionable back when they

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were 14 or 15 and just clowning around or whatever but they put something on a post

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that oh and then Harvard cancels their admission.

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That's a lot of responsibility to put on a kid to realize everything I say could come

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back to haunt me in the future and really derail my career plans.

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Absolutely.

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It happens in careers, employment and jobs and it's all over the place and then you deal

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with things like that and then as I think about what we're speaking about, self-control

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goes out of the window.

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I really think that it's going back to that and learning all of this, this would be great

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to learn prior to starting to post and saying what you're saying.

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But I think it goes back to free will.

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How do you define free will?

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All right.

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Well, a lot of the arguments have been about how to define it.

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So I use a scientific definition that a bunch of scientists and philosophers came up with

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a few years ago which is just the ability to act differently in the same situation.

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That was clear cut and to the point.

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I like it.

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Yeah.

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I mean there are other people think it means a soul reaching into the brain and causing

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behavior without any physical action or anything like that and so a lot of scientists don't

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believe that when it's defined in those terms and I guess I agree with them.

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But in terms of being able to act differently in the same situation to be flexible, that's

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really good.

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You can see why that evolved and why that's especially important in culture where we're

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creating multiple situations for ourselves all the time whether it's recording this

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at Christmas, whether you're shopping for presents and deciding what of all the possible

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things you could get, what do you want to get for people or you're saving money for

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the future so you can buy a house or send your children to college or have enough money

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when you retire.

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All sorts of things like that require an advanced mental capacity to deal with them and the

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same with performing your roles in a society.

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I mean chimpanzees are our closest relatives.

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They don't have any restaurants.

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They like cooked food when we cook it for them, most animals do but no animals have

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mastered cooking whereas pretty much all human societies do and cooking is much healthier.

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It vastly reduces the amount of energy you need in order to digest the food.

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The chimpanzees, I read somewhere they spend six hours a day chewing because they're eating

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raw meat and they have to chew it down.

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Eating saves us from that and also we can go out to a restaurant and have different

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kinds of food and so on but if a chimpanzee went in there, they would just grab food off

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of the plates of other patrons, wouldn't understand the rules of how to order and wouldn't pay

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for the meal and so on.

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The whole business model wouldn't work.

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It's our shared understanding of these things that enables us to cooperate in this way.

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It's like trade.

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The restaurant wants you to buy a meal from them and you want to buy a meal from them

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and so if it works, you're both better off.

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So it's a form of cooperation but you have to have an advanced enough free will to understand

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the rules, to obey them, play your part, do what you're supposed to and take advantage

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of it.

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Absolutely.

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You have such knowledge and experience in this.

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What's your why?

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What's your big why?

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Well a while ago I set myself the goal of trying to understand what human life is all

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about.

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I was raised by some parents who had certain very strong views and I rebelled against

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those and so I didn't feel loyalty to those but they had some good points too so I didn't

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just go to the opposite.

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I said, people can talk me into things.

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I really want to learn to be very disciplined in my thinking.

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I want to explore both sides and come away with a big understanding of why we're here

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and what we're doing and what we're supposed to be doing and why society is the way it

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is.

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So that's my quest for the big picture and maybe I'll make it, maybe not.

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I've made some progress.

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Yes, yes and as you continue on and the world changes, I think you'll have more work to

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do because…

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Yes, yes, about fascinating new things.

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I mean 30 years ago nobody knew we'd be debating whether the internet was bad for kids or new

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forms of warfare and all sorts of things.

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Other problems go back but the global economy is also a fairly modern development.

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Among other things it's done, it's reduced warfare.

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As nations discovered it was better to trade with each other than to send armies to destroy

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each other's cities.

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That itself has been improved.

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So anyway, things do keep changing but there is a fundamental human nature that doesn't

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change as fast.

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Thank you for being here today.

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I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live.

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I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes continue to move forward.

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This is going to get more and more fun.

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We'll have more and more engagement as well.

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We'll invite people to participate in the show and thank you for giving us your time

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and attention.

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I hope you have an excellent time building out your vision and becoming a Vision Pro

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yourself.