1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,600 What tips do you have for leaders? 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:07,600 I mean, there are just a billion potential tips for leaders. 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,840 But I think the one that I run across the most 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,600 in the leaders that I work with is why are you leading? 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,200 What is drawing you to be a leader? 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,200 What's the aspiration there? 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,400 And where that comes from is that we're taught 8 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,200 through society and from the youngest age 9 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,600 that what we need to pursue 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,360 is the next rung on the ladder 11 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,200 or moving up into the right, 12 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,520 going from one thing to another. 13 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,200 But often we're not thinking about 14 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,280 what better outcomes look like for ourselves. 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,220 And so, so many of the leaders that I work with, 16 00:00:42,220 --> 00:00:44,720 I'm really trying to understand, 17 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,400 are they leading because this is something 18 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:47,800 they really believe in, 19 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,880 something that they really wanna do, 20 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,440 or are they leading because 21 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,960 this is what they think is expected of them? 22 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,340 This is what the world has told them to do 23 00:00:57,340 --> 00:00:59,520 and is it actually right for them? 24 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,360 So the biggest tip that I have is for people to do 25 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,560 a little bit of introspection to say, 26 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,480 is the life that they're leading as a leader, 27 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,320 the life they want to be living? 28 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:13,200 Or is there a version of that 29 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,240 that looks better than where they are now? 30 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,720 But I feel like that the answer that might come 31 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,900 might not be as easy as just a little introspecting. 32 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:24,640 So I wanna go to your journey. 33 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,160 If you did that for yourself, 34 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,000 and what did you find, what did you explore, Eric? 35 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,480 Yeah, I think you're right. 36 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,240 It's never easy. 37 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,700 And to say that it's easy is disingenuous completely. 38 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:39,480 But I remember very, very clearly 39 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,780 having gone through one of the hardest things 40 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:43,000 I've ever gone through in my life, 41 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,980 a really tragic loss of my father. 42 00:01:45,980 --> 00:01:50,980 And I continued going through the leadership ranks 43 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,000 and pursuing bigger and bigger jobs 44 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,180 through the largest grief that I felt in life 45 00:01:56,180 --> 00:01:57,880 in a lot of ways. 46 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,800 And it wasn't until I was finally able to get 47 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,060 some sense of closure or resolution on what I was feeling 48 00:02:06,060 --> 00:02:08,920 that I was able to take a step back and really think, 49 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,600 what do I care about? 50 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,880 What are the beliefs that I hold about the world 51 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,560 and the way that I live life that are important to me? 52 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,640 And if I could just break that down into a smaller bit, 53 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:23,880 what does a perfect day look like for me? 54 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,980 How am I spending my time in a day 55 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:30,900 that feels like it's so aligned with who I am as a person? 56 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:33,700 And so I really took that on as a project 57 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:36,320 and realized that a lot of what I was doing 58 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,820 was outside of what I believed or wanted to be doing 59 00:02:39,820 --> 00:02:41,660 in my leadership roles, 60 00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:43,840 and instead carved a new leadership path 61 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:45,840 where I could spend more of my time, 62 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,840 not just in a day, but every five minutes, 63 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,600 doing things that really light me up 64 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,760 and really bring me to my best leadership potential. 65 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Wow. 66 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,880 So you didn't completely change your path, 67 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,880 but you incorporated that little by little in your life? 68 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,360 Yeah, I mean, I think it's really hard, right? 69 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,040 It's like people, it's something in dreams or movies 70 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,960 where we get to just turn our lives upside down and say, 71 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,400 okay, we're gonna go do this thing we've never done before 72 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,960 and excel at it. 73 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,640 But rather treating this whole thing, 74 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:19,680 I'm in my late 40s now, 75 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,120 and treating this whole life as sort of this journey 76 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,520 that we're on where there's gonna be twists and turns. 77 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,480 And the idea that there's a right answer, 78 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,560 there's an idea that there's an end goal 79 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,080 that we have to reach as a leader, 80 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,200 whether it's a CEO of a company 81 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,120 or the chief marketing officer or anything in the C-suite, 82 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,880 that that's finally the golden ticket 83 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,240 that's gonna answer all of our questions. 84 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,280 That's what I'm trying to dismantle 85 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,260 because you can have all of these things 86 00:03:46,260 --> 00:03:50,040 and look so good on paper or on your social feeds, 87 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,000 but feel pretty empty and hollow inside 88 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,520 at the end of the day. 89 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,640 So, I think a lot of people want to achieve being a leader 90 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,960 because of the status it provides 91 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:03,300 and the position that it holds for them in life 92 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:06,020 without thinking, is this really something that I want 93 00:04:06,020 --> 00:04:08,040 and something that's good for me? 94 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,680 And I think that that's what requires the introspection 95 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:16,120 and the analysis to say, what is the right path? 96 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,840 Or what could I be doing that feels more expansive to me? 97 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,840 There's so much I wanna explore here. 98 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:30,200 How, so, and I don't have a question designed for this, 99 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,940 is it's a very random thoughts. 100 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,600 So, when you found out for yourself, 101 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,280 like, hey, this might be my path to doing things. 102 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,320 But then I see a lot of people, 103 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,400 so I had recently, I had one of my friends, 104 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:52,400 he couldn't find a job and he's been struggling through that, 105 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,500 but he wants to start a business because he's looking up. 106 00:04:55,500 --> 00:04:59,160 And he, instead of applying for 10 other jobs 107 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,320 in other places, he's jumping head on 108 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,040 into this business venture which he knows nothing about, 109 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,260 how to run a business. 110 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,460 But seems like you did not do that. 111 00:05:10,460 --> 00:05:11,960 You did something very different 112 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,540 and you took a different approach. 113 00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:19,540 How did that path, like, what was that path like for you? 114 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,760 Yeah, I mean, I think it's a good question. 115 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,720 It's always so tempting when we leave one thing 116 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,280 to use a cliche to like throw the baby out 117 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:32,000 with the bath water, right? 118 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,560 And to say, everything that we've learned 119 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,040 or accumulated up to this date is now irrelevant 120 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,200 because I'm doing this new thing now. 121 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,400 But what I did and what I always urge people to do is, 122 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,020 I spent most of my career post-academia as a marketer, 123 00:05:47,020 --> 00:05:49,080 as a brand builder, as a marketer. 124 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,440 And as I got more senior in those roles, 125 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,760 I was taking on more of the parts of the function 126 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,500 that I didn't like as much or didn't gravitate to as much. 127 00:05:58,500 --> 00:05:59,560 Not that they're not important, 128 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,240 it's just I personally wasn't lit up by them. 129 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,020 So I did some introspection and said, 130 00:06:05,020 --> 00:06:07,140 what are the parts of what I've done 131 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:09,120 that I really love to do? 132 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,240 That included writing, presenting, 133 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,660 making sure that if I was doing marketing, 134 00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:18,120 that it was focused on the foundational storytelling 135 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,640 and brand building pieces that can then be used 136 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,040 as part of growth and performance drivers, 137 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,320 but I don't wanna spend my time optimizing advertisements. 138 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:27,640 That's not what I wanna be doing. 139 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,320 I'm a brand builder, I'm a speaker, 140 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,800 I'm a writer and I'm a storyteller. 141 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,640 So how can I create what I'm doing, 142 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,500 leaning into what I was strong at based on the equity 143 00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:40,440 that I've had from the places that I've been, 144 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,480 build on that equity instead of throwing out everything, 145 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,600 keeping what's really good and getting rid of the things 146 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,600 that I don't want anymore. 147 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,780 Wow, that is, wow. 148 00:06:50,780 --> 00:06:53,840 Say that one more time for our listeners. 149 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:54,680 That was so good. 150 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,680 Yeah, so I mean, you can almost think about it as like, 151 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,380 remember when we were kids, we had a backpack, right? 152 00:07:00,380 --> 00:07:03,420 And as you get more senior organizations, 153 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:06,320 you're adding more and more stuff into that backpack 154 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,480 that you have, but when you realize that that backpack's 155 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,200 bursting at the seams and so full and kind of breaking, 156 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,520 you've gotta figure out in your next thing, 157 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,480 what are you gonna unload from that? 158 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,780 What are you gonna keep in that backpack that you really 159 00:07:19,780 --> 00:07:21,840 love that you can't do without? 160 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,240 And what can you say, you know what, 161 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:24,680 I don't need to be doing this anymore. 162 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,320 I've done it, I don't really like it 163 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:27,920 or I'm not that good at it. 164 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,440 And maybe I wanna lean into what I'm really strong at 165 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:31,880 and what I really love to do. 166 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,560 So your backpack's a little bit lighter 167 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,680 and you're a little bit happier. 168 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,640 So what did you get rid of for your backpack? 169 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,640 Yeah, I mean, I got rid of, I turned out, you know, 170 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,560 I don't love, probably because of the way I was raised 171 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,760 and maybe a lot of people are like this, 172 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,440 but I was raised without any authority whatsoever. 173 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,300 I had complete control over my childhood and my life. 174 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:55,720 I was raised by just a single mom who worked three jobs, 175 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,600 you know, she didn't graduate high school 176 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,480 and so worked really hard to just make ends meet. 177 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,800 And so this idea of authority, 178 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,280 this idea of always having to manage up 179 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,660 is not something that I've loved. 180 00:08:11,660 --> 00:08:13,520 And it's something you have to be really good at 181 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,320 if you take on a big corporate role, 182 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:16,880 you have to be really good at figuring 183 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,840 how to quote unquote manage up. 184 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:20,640 And it's not something I ever love to do. 185 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,520 I'm not a very political person, I've never loved to. 186 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:24,940 So what better thing could I be doing 187 00:08:24,940 --> 00:08:26,220 but run my own company? 188 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,340 Yeah, that's awesome. 189 00:08:29,340 --> 00:08:32,620 Wow, thank you for sharing that, that's amazing. 190 00:08:35,620 --> 00:08:37,940 Okay, I have one more question for you, Eric. 191 00:08:37,940 --> 00:08:40,260 I think today's segment has already been great. 192 00:08:40,260 --> 00:08:42,860 I think that was very practical insights 193 00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:44,580 that you shared with us. 194 00:08:44,580 --> 00:08:45,420 Thank you. 195 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:48,740 My question for you is, 196 00:08:48,740 --> 00:08:50,940 what defines a great leader to you, Eric? 197 00:08:51,980 --> 00:08:55,740 There's so many, I guess I'd start with, 198 00:08:55,740 --> 00:08:57,100 I start with four things, 199 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:59,380 four principles of leadership 200 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:01,460 that I really think make a great leader. 201 00:09:01,460 --> 00:09:04,480 The first is having a vision, 202 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,660 having an idea of where it is that you're going. 203 00:09:08,660 --> 00:09:11,620 And it doesn't have to be a grand vision 204 00:09:11,620 --> 00:09:15,780 like Martin Luther King or changing the world, 205 00:09:15,780 --> 00:09:18,220 just a vision for where you want your company 206 00:09:18,220 --> 00:09:19,500 or your business to go. 207 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:20,900 What is that vision? 208 00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:23,780 That vision is useless if you don't have the passion 209 00:09:23,780 --> 00:09:26,060 that's attached to the vision. 210 00:09:26,060 --> 00:09:27,580 How much do you really care about it? 211 00:09:27,580 --> 00:09:29,620 The most successful leaders in the world 212 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:33,220 care about what they're doing so much that 213 00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:36,180 it's part of the air that they breathe 214 00:09:36,180 --> 00:09:37,820 and the water that they drink. 215 00:09:37,820 --> 00:09:39,940 And it's related to the vision that they have 216 00:09:39,940 --> 00:09:40,800 about where they're going. 217 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,460 So you've got the vision, you've got the passion, 218 00:09:43,460 --> 00:09:46,540 but everybody knows that those things aren't that useful 219 00:09:46,540 --> 00:09:48,820 unless you have persuasion, 220 00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:51,540 the ability to bring people along 221 00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:54,740 on the journey of the vision that you have 222 00:09:54,740 --> 00:09:56,980 and to inspire people with the passion 223 00:09:56,980 --> 00:09:58,540 that you have as a leader. 224 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:00,440 But then the fourth thing is perhaps 225 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,300 the most important thing at all, and that's humility. 226 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:05,980 And you can think about humility 227 00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:09,040 as literally a line across a page. 228 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,940 And leaders are either kind of above or below that line 229 00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:13,580 at any given time, right? 230 00:10:13,580 --> 00:10:17,680 We experience this all the time in terms of our humility. 231 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:19,500 When we're below the line, 232 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:20,740 and we all know how this works 233 00:10:20,740 --> 00:10:22,260 in our personal relationships. 234 00:10:22,260 --> 00:10:23,100 When you're below the line, 235 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:25,260 you're committed to being right, 236 00:10:25,260 --> 00:10:27,900 you're closed and you're defensive. 237 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:30,140 We've all been there probably multiple times a day. 238 00:10:30,140 --> 00:10:31,860 We really wanna be right. 239 00:10:31,860 --> 00:10:33,460 We're not really open to new ideas 240 00:10:33,460 --> 00:10:36,240 and we're gonna defend our ideas at all costs. 241 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:37,840 But the best leaders are the ones 242 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,460 that can rise above that line 243 00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:41,100 where they're not committed to being right, 244 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:42,700 but committed to learning. 245 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:44,940 Where they're not closed, they're open, 246 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:47,440 they're not defensive, they're curious. 247 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,860 So again, it's vision, passion for that vision, 248 00:10:50,860 --> 00:10:52,660 persuasion to bring people along 249 00:10:52,660 --> 00:10:55,260 and the humility to know whether you're being above 250 00:10:55,260 --> 00:10:57,460 or below that line and trying to rise above it 251 00:10:57,460 --> 00:10:59,140 as much as possible. 252 00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:02,520 How does someone improve in these four areas? 253 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:06,420 I mean, the first is, you know, 254 00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:08,840 it's outside of what you learn in business school 255 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,660 or outside of what you learn in classrooms. 256 00:11:11,660 --> 00:11:14,500 But vision comes from a lot from intuition. 257 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:16,220 What is the intuition or the beliefs 258 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:17,420 that we have about the world 259 00:11:17,420 --> 00:11:20,100 and what we can do to make this world a little bit better? 260 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:22,340 I'd hope that leaders are going into what they're doing 261 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:24,900 because they see a problem in the world, they wanna fix it. 262 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:27,080 That's every leader I've ever worked with 263 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,100 spot some kind of problem, big or small 264 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:31,660 and has a solution to solve that problem. 265 00:11:31,660 --> 00:11:33,980 So again, it's really making sure 266 00:11:33,980 --> 00:11:37,020 that you're really crystal clear through language 267 00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:39,180 and articulating what the problem is 268 00:11:39,180 --> 00:11:41,260 and what your solution is to that problem. 269 00:11:41,260 --> 00:11:44,300 That's what helps you define what a really good vision is. 270 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:47,460 You can think about a vision is not, you know, 271 00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:49,700 what is your big lofty vision in the world, 272 00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:51,580 but what does a perfect world look like 273 00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:53,500 if you do everything you say you're gonna do? 274 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:55,860 What does an ideal world look like? 275 00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:59,780 You know, in terms of passion, you just gotta have it, right? 276 00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:03,100 We've all met people who go through the motions, 277 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:07,320 who are doing what they do and it's a job 278 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,100 and that's totally okay. 279 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:11,460 But those are not often the best leaders 280 00:12:11,460 --> 00:12:14,020 because they're not inspiring people 281 00:12:14,020 --> 00:12:17,100 to come along on the journey with them. 282 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:20,820 The persuasion piece, that is always about 283 00:12:20,820 --> 00:12:24,020 learning what successful communication is, 284 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:26,540 not broadly, but for every individual 285 00:12:26,540 --> 00:12:27,900 that you're talking to. 286 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:30,660 How do you really take the empathetic inputs 287 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:32,940 that you have through other people 288 00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:34,300 and then how do you communicate 289 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:36,660 based on what you're getting back? 290 00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:39,260 And that's where this idea that started in the 50s 291 00:12:39,260 --> 00:12:42,020 of active listening comes from. 292 00:12:42,020 --> 00:12:43,700 The idea of active listening 293 00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:45,020 is that you're listening so hard 294 00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:47,060 that it actually changes your mind 295 00:12:47,060 --> 00:12:49,020 and changes your direction. 296 00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:50,860 And the best leaders in the world 297 00:12:50,860 --> 00:12:52,340 practice active listening, 298 00:12:52,340 --> 00:12:54,100 really hearing the empathetic input 299 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:55,700 and then responding to it. 300 00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:58,460 And that's where persuasion really comes from. 301 00:12:58,460 --> 00:13:01,040 And then humility, it's so interesting, right? 302 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,820 Because we're seeing such a lack of it in these days 303 00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:04,820 in a lot of ways. 304 00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:07,020 We're not seeing people really rise above 305 00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:10,500 being committed to being right and close and defensive. 306 00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:12,780 But you know, if you really look at the people 307 00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:16,260 that inspire us and the people that we look up to 308 00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:17,940 as heroes in the world, 309 00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:22,260 there are people that are generally curious, 310 00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:23,580 not just about other people, 311 00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:25,380 but about the world around them, 312 00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:27,220 generally open to new ideas 313 00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:29,460 and being pushed on their thinking. 314 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:33,740 And even if you take people that maybe are polarized right 315 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:35,940 now, people like Elon Musk, for example, 316 00:13:35,940 --> 00:13:39,500 who we love him as an entrepreneur, 317 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:42,580 the jury's out on what direction he's going in 318 00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:44,580 from lots of perspectives, 319 00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:49,180 but he is somebody who has been open in the past 320 00:13:49,180 --> 00:13:52,140 to really being pushed in his ideas, 321 00:13:52,140 --> 00:13:54,900 really being open to being pushed in his ideas, 322 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:57,180 not being committed to being right. 323 00:13:57,180 --> 00:13:59,940 And the question is, what happens when somebody starts 324 00:13:59,940 --> 00:14:02,100 to drift below the line? 325 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:04,960 And when we start to see people drift below the line. 326 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,620 So again, you know, it's really about listening 327 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:10,660 to other people and really taking in those empathetic inputs 328 00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:12,220 in order to communicate better. 329 00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:14,860 Thank you for sharing that with us today. 330 00:14:14,860 --> 00:14:16,860 Well, that's awesome. 331 00:14:16,860 --> 00:14:20,220 Do you recommend any books to read when it comes 332 00:14:20,220 --> 00:14:24,420 to the listening side or the leadership skills side 333 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:28,660 or whatever you, something that will actually help people? 334 00:14:28,660 --> 00:14:30,540 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's interesting. 335 00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:35,100 It's like so much of what I've read around this 336 00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:36,740 hasn't necessarily been in book form, 337 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:40,500 but through either Harvard Business Review articles 338 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:44,100 or watching the leadership style of people that I admire, 339 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:47,820 whether it's the CEO of Patagonia or other people 340 00:14:47,820 --> 00:14:49,140 that are really making a mark 341 00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:51,580 through differentiating leadership styles 342 00:14:51,580 --> 00:14:53,180 and inspiring people in the world 343 00:14:53,180 --> 00:14:55,260 to think differently about business. 344 00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:57,380 So I don't know if there's like a singular book, 345 00:14:57,380 --> 00:14:59,900 but then again, I'm not also the biggest business book reader. 346 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:01,580 I try to lead into fiction, 347 00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:03,780 read fiction as much as possible. 348 00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:05,980 I stay away from reading too many business books 349 00:15:05,980 --> 00:15:07,180 to be honest with you. 350 00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:08,540 Thank you for being here today. 351 00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:11,020 I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. 352 00:15:11,020 --> 00:15:13,660 I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions 353 00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:15,940 as these episodes continue to move forward. 354 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:17,660 This is gonna get more and more fun. 355 00:15:17,660 --> 00:15:19,460 We'll have more and more engagement as well. 356 00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:21,580 We'll invite people to participate in the show 357 00:15:21,580 --> 00:15:23,940 and thank you for giving us your time and attention. 358 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:26,660 Have an excellent time building out your vision 359 00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:45,660 and becoming a Vision Pro yourself.