We've got cultures going through all sorts of stuff right now.
You know, there's a return to office mandates that are happening.
We've got people who are very, very in love with the idea of working
from home at this point.
I've been working from home since 2010.
I don't know how many people know that, but I've almost always worked from home.
And there's the argument that working from home kills curiosity,
ingenuity and engagement.
And there's an argument that actually there's ways to explore that and create
productivity even from the home office.
And you, Dr.
Julie Pham, help people with curiosity and bringing curiosity in the workplace.
And work should be more fun in my opinion.
So I love what you do.
I'm like, okay, cool.
What are your thoughts on what's going on in the present world of curiosity and
corporate and coaches and working from home and the whole nine yards?
I think one of the things that actually kills curiosity is this is problem solving.
And it's because it's because we're, I need a solution now.
And what is the outcome going to look like?
And sometimes actually what we need to do is slow down and say, what is this
problem teaching me, huh?
What are some questions I need to ask?
I was actually just in a call this morning and we were debriefing on an event.
And we started, we just started jumping to solution.
Well, this is what we need to fix.
This is what we need to fix.
And it's like, wait, and the facilitator, I was a participant.
The facilitator actually stepped back and said, okay, before we get to solutions,
why don't we talk, remind ourselves, what was the vision for the event?
And so actually, I think that's one thing that, that really our need for
solutions hurts curiosity and the need for a right answer.
I think people are so scared of being, of, of offending someone, of hurting
someone.
Jackson, I remember once I was, I was leading this big group session and I was, I
was guiding people through how to ask questions, approach difficult
conversations with curiosity.
And at the end, this one person said, you've taught us how to ask questions, but
what I really want to know is how to answer them.
And it's like, well, that's actually the question of leadership.
We don't know.
And so I think that's something else that, that hurts.
Say that again, for all of you who might've missed the punchline there.
What is the purpose of leadership or how do you say that?
The purpose of listening is to ask questions and to know that these, that
there is no one.
We don't know.
And also Jackson, one of my favorite stats is because when I talk about
curiosity, people are just, oh yeah, don't worry.
I'm curious.
It's me.
I'm, I'm all curious.
Other people though.
Right.
And yet one of, one of my favorite stats aside is that 70% of people face
obstacles asking questions at work.
70%.
And so actually, and I actually think sometimes consultants study, because you
have to be somewhat self-aware to be able to answer that.
Well, that's another thing.
I think something like, uh, most people like 80, 85% think of themselves as
self-aware.
And then that same study shows under the criteria of self-awareness, only
about 15% of them are.
So there's also that there's actually one of the things that I love looking
at is that cognitive dissonance.
And I can give you numerous examples of this, but I will just, since I started
this thread around, why is it, why are we afraid or what, what are the
obstacles to asking questions?
I actually learned this through working with some of my clients because I
would take them through, okay, this is, this is inquiry method.
And then I would get pushback and then they actually started sharing with me
all these reasons why they can't ask questions that became an article.
It was like, Oh, you know, it's just fear of fear of looking like you don't
know fear of looking like you weren't listening.
Maybe someone talked about it already.
Fear of challenging someone.
Maybe there's a power dynamic fear of seeing passive.
It's just, Oh, well, if a question you ask a question, it's like, well, you're
not assertive enough.
And so there's, so there are all of these things that actually get asked
all of these things that actually get in the way.
And that's why when I think about curiosity, I think a lot of people
emphasize the why, why we should have curiosity.
I actually think we all can use time and cynic, you know, he got us all
thinking about it.
Why, but the thing is, I actually think what people really struggle with is,
is the how, and it's actually admitting when we don't want to practice
curiosity.
So Jackson, I've been talking, I've been describing curiosity.
I've been using, I said practice, and that's because a lot of people, when
we talk about curiosity, we think about it like a trait, you know, cause
Jackson before this call, he said, I'm curious.
I'm like, I'm curious too.
I actually think we are all curious.
Right.
What's hard is to admit when we don't want to practice curiosity though.
Cool.
That's a really, really great point.
I actually, and on a more boring subject, I tie the same reality to integrity
because a lot of people say, looking for somebody with integrity.
I'm like, okay, everybody in the world has integrity to some degree.
Right.
And so it's a matter of like, to what level and degree do you go towards?
And it's that practice aspect.
Am I practicing integrity?
Right.
Am I doing things to build that within myself?
Am I doing the same thing with curiosity?
It's a, it's a verb.
And, and actually, you know, speaking about integrity and with curiosity,
the workplace environment needs to, to allow for that.
I mean, someone could come in with a lot of integrity.
She said, oh, but I'm not going to be rewarded for my integrity here.
Right.
Well, I'm an auditor.
How are they going to practice it?
As a marketer, revenue growth expert, like that's part of what I do.
And I'm like the least favorite out there.
And I, and I know why, and I'm okay with it.
It's because I'm willing to audit and I'm going to say that campaign's going to lead to X, Y, or Z,
or you're doing this and it's against FCC compliance,
or you're going to be doing that, but your results are, you know,
I'm willing to say all the hard truths they don't want to hear, which is,
uh, the, like it's, it's easy to not want somebody to work with you
when they're going to be that particular about how things go.
It's much easier to just be the guy in sunglasses that stands in front of a plane you don't own and,
and say the funnel is going to work, you know, just make it happen.
But there's no, there's not a lot of integrity with that approach.
So I love that you talked about how in workplaces, we have to become aware,
we have the opportunity as visionaries, as leaders to become aware of,
are we facilitating an environment where integrity is rewarded when it's difficult
and where curiosity is expanded upon, um, in a, in a safe way and there were questions
are able to be asked. And I think part of that too is,
there's a self training as a leader, what do I need to do to make room for those questions?
And then how can I retrain or rewire my team members, brains and hearts to realize it's a
safe place, even though the last places they were at weren't necessarily safe places to,
to bring up the same types of realities. So,
Mm hmm. Yeah. And if there is a, something I like to ask is, you know, talking about, um,
you know, so the practice of curiosity, I think of as having these three elements,
one is self-awareness, the second is relationship building, and the third is clear communication.
So that first one is self-awareness is about how do I be curious about myself? How do I practice
inward curiosity? Uh, the second one is relationship building. So how do I be curious about other
people that outward curiosity, and also how do I let them be curious about me? And which means
inviting them to react to whatever I'm saying that will actually expand how I think about that.
And that part is really vulnerable. So I think there are people who are just, oh, I've asked you
all these questions. And, and then sometimes I've heard people, but they don't ask me questions.
Like, well, sometimes you have to share to let people know it's okay, especially for leaders.
Well, why aren't, why isn't it, why aren't people asking me questions? Cause there's a power dynamic.
Right. And, and so, but going back to that, the relationship building part, that back and forth,
that's reciprocity. And you need to have that reciprocity and learning for there to be
for there to be relationship building. Cause sometimes I hear people say,
it's not my job to educate you. I go look it up. And it's just, well, then my response to that is
like, I'm actually not looking for education. I'm looking for engagement. If you don't think you
have anything to learn from me, and we're not going to build a relationship. Right. So that like,
that's the second element of practicing curiosity is the relationship building.
And then the third element is listening to understand, asking questions when we don't
understand and then telling and giving specific examples and stories from our life. And that
means not just being vague and, and abstract. And so sorry, I mean, you're obviously,
you want to finish that real quick? Cause no, no, no. I'm going to, and I'll say something else,
but please, I thought you said a third one earlier. I got this relationship building.
Oh, clear communication. Cause then you said, let's understand. I was like, that's one of my
favorite lines, like favorite quotes and things to think through in regards to relationships.
And so clear communication is the third one. And then under the clear communication,
it's got these, the listening, the having and the being specific with our stories.
Question for you in regards to that. So are these linear? And that stair one has to come first,
stair two has to come second, stair three has to come third. Cause when I heard it, I was like,
wait, wouldn't clear communication come before building relationships in order to get great
relationships. But what's, what's your theory? That's a great question. I think of as imagine,
I do think that self, I think self-awareness actually has to come first. Yeah. And then,
and then there's the relationship building part. And then the clear communication is actually under
both. And, but they also feed each other, right? Because sometimes we only get self-awareness by
sharing because there's only so much I know I can ask myself all these questions, but it's only until
Jackson I share with something with you and then you react to it. Yeah. Right. I'm looking, I'm like,
okay, triangular effect of right. Spiritual, mental and physical. And there's reasons why people can
justify that. Which one, which, which, which, um, what do they call that? Um, leg of the stool,
right. Is the one that matters the most. Um, right. And then there's the bridge aspect. Now,
now I'm looking at this like a bridge because you're right. The clear communication one feeds
both. Um, you know, and so there's so many, there's so many cool ways to explore this.
And it's one of those topics that, like you said, if we're so hell bent on solving the problem in
the here and now, right. If somebody's listening to this podcast and like, why aren't they talking
about funnels yet? All day today. And I really want to just learn like this, the super easy
solution to how this works. Like, well, you missed it. The super easy solution was hang in there with
it. Like practices. So, Oh, this is deep. Cause we have to pause, right? Because it's just, I mean,
maybe that thing worked last year and you're just, okay, well, I'm going to do that exact same thing.
And the world has changed. The world has changed. So that thing that if you were just using the same
recipe without recognizing the world has changed and you expect the same results, then you are
actually, you're blind to the fact that the world has changed. And cause I think context really
matters. And that's another thing, Jackson. I constantly think about context, which if we
think about the context, then we can appreciate things are dynamic, which means there is no right
or wrong answer. And the answers are constantly changing. And so we have to be, we have to even
get curious about the context of, so for example, you know, I, I, I do, I think a lot about respect
and how do we be curious about respect? What I want for respect at work is going to be different
from home. Totally different, totally different. And I, um, I actually have this, I'm having my
best friend the other day, two days ago to reinforce your point on this. And he talked about like going
on vacation together. Um, and I was, we're looking to do that. Late, yeah, uh-huh. Late January. And,
and I told him, I was like, look, I was like, you know what? And he's like, where would you want?
I was like, I don't really care where we go. I was like, I've kind of seen it all. And I'm not
really big into seeing things. What I would want is if we went on vacation, you plan it all.
I just want to be with you when you're happy. Right. And I just want to enjoy the moment and
find new random people. Like that's what I love to do. Everything else is just a bonus and like
superfluous to it. And he's like, well, I love planning vacations. And I was like, this is
perfect. Why? Because I plan everything at work. Right. And this is what I do. Like I organize
a good thing. What questions I'm going to ask. I research this and that I do it all day long. So
when I'm done with work, I'm done planning. I want to go play my guitar and just find some random
song that hits me emotionally. And I'm in it. So there's that, that separation and exploration
of reality that it's okay to be different in different aspects of life. In fact, it's not just
okay. That's part of the vibrant reality of a purposeful existence, in my opinion.
And then, and actually Jackson, what you just, cause our role can actually change depending
on who we're with. Right? So if you are with some people, with a group of friends where you are the
most organized person and you know, you are going to be annoyed if you, if it doesn't go a certain
way, then you step up and you're the organizer. But if you're actually with someone who's much
more picky and wants certain things more than you, then like, I'm going to step back and I'll do
whatever you want. And, and so we will, we will step up and change it or step back depending on
who we're with. And that, that happens at work too. And yes. And so I think it's really important to
recognize that it's dynamic and that, I mean, you know, another example of right or wrong thinking,
the way people think about respect is they think we talk about it, respect versus disrespect.
If I don't get respect the way I want, you know what that is? That's disrespect. Right. Right.
And like, and so, and then you just hear people say, Oh, you need to respect me. And they're
talking about it as if we mean as if it's fixed and universal. We're such victims. I'm just,
when it's the way I think about it is more, it's more relative because it's we actually, Jackson,
you and I want to respect one another. We know that we can agree on how it feels to feel seen,
heard, acknowledged. What we disagree about is, well, what does it look like to you, Jackson?
Right. What does it look like to me? Do you want me to CC you on all the emails? Because if you
did that to me, I'd be like, don't fill in my, don't fill in my email box. But some people actually
feel that they are not included. If you don't, if you take them off, they're like, why did you take
me off? And they take that really personally, right? This book by Dr. Peter Drucker, the effective
executive, one of the best books of all time for business. Thank you, Warren Buffett for saying
that. Thank you, Bill Gates for saying that. Thank you, LeBron James for saying that for track record
purposes. It's also one of the only books I know that people don't know about. But it's
one of the books that people don't implement after they read it. He talks about that and he gives a
very easy recipe for how to include people, you know, without, so they don't feel like you're
forgetting them. But I love that you're adding a new dynamic onto that as well. And you're right.
I have worked with executives who are like, I don't want to be included on that. Oh, you know,
I'm like, why are you including me on it? And that presents an entirely new different
curiosity opportunity as well. I'm like, all right, do you, do you work on training an executive on
being able to delegate their inbox out a little more so they don't feel that way? Or do you let
it go and just not make the exception for that one person? There's so many things to explore when it
comes to working relationships, dynamics, and those you listening in, I hope you have in your
heart the same thing that I'm going to assume Dr. Fam and I have, which is just a love for exploring
this stuff, right? Just, just appreciating that we don't get it. We don't know we're trying,
we're going to continue to explore it and we get to benefit from that process as do our team members.
So before we cut for a little bit of a break, what are three resources, Julie, that have gotten you
to where you are as a visionary leader? What, what things can we use to, to improve our own journeys?
I'll just say that the, uh, I really like this book called stories that stick. It's about
storytelling and how personal knowing the story of our own company and our ourselves actually helps
us in, uh, health later on. Um, there is another favorite book right now is, uh, Charles Dugan's
super communicators. I think that's a great book about how different ways that people, um, communicate.
That's not personality styles. It's more of, it's just got lots of really great, um, stories. And
I'm also a huge fan of Malcolm Gladwell. I'm, I'm a historian by training. So anything revisionist
history, the podcast, I love that because I think that's about reframing. So those are three.
Wow. What's his podcast called revisionist history. I did not know that. And I am totally,
that's a huge, I read, I accidentally read his book talking with strangers. Um, have you read it?
Yeah. Oh my gosh. What a mind blowing book. I, I thought it was going to be a book on like
communication and relationships related to business. And then found out, no, this is like a,
a world paradigm shifting book and like four different capacities. And that book is dark and
like amazing and like dives into hope too, but like, Oh my, you'll love his, you'll love his podcast.
Yeah, I bet. No, I, I, anything that guy does is absolutely worth consuming because he is so
good at exploring all the different angles and possibilities and research available. Like I,
my hat is off to him all day long. Um, so I'm really glad you mentioned Malcolm and I'm excited
that I've been to that podcast. So, um, I know you got a Ted X talk out there as well. I am
committing now that we've had this conversation as well. I am totally watching your Ted X talk, um,
after we get off and probably for part of my, my Saturday fun time, I will dive into that.
We're going to be right back after these messages and we'll dive into Julie's podcast.
Julie's vision of curiosity and how you can implement curiosity into your cultures.
All right. Welcome in to vision pros live with Jackson Callum. I'm your show host.
We'll be doing interviews for visionary entrepreneurs and guest leaders who are
building fantastic visions out there. Hey, what's up and welcome into another episode of vision
pros live. I'm your show host Jackson Callum founder and CEO of first-class business. And
I'm super excited to have Dr. Julie FAM on today because we get to talk about curiosity
and I love curiosity. I love that she talked about how it is a practice. It is not necessary. It can
be a trait for sure, but we're talking about the art of being able to implement it more and more
often in life. And I have found that's one of those great recipes or ingredients rather,
secret ingredients to drive more happiness and fun and self-awareness, discovery, exploration.
Like you get to enjoy life more as you dive further into the aspects of what curiosity
entails. So we'll get back on that in just a minute. As we do a couple of programs for you
guys to be curious about. One of them is Obrador de la Hice de Trabajo para Latinos. If you're
curious, that is Spanish for opportunities for Latinos spoke by a gringo who sometimes speaks
okay and sometimes doesn't. My hope is that all of you will explore what we're building with
opportunities. We have a version of this for India. We also have a version of this for the
Philippines and we're basically training virtual assistants, people who've never heard of the
opportunity to be a virtual assistant. I'm talking about people who don't know about LinkedIn,
people who don't know that Canva exists, Upwork, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Fiverr, et cetera. These are
all new foreign materials to them and we help them learn that there are opportunities throughout
the world where they could get hired. We hire most of them within first class business ourselves as
well. It was a 90 day training program. If you know of a Latino, an Indian leader or somebody
from the Philippines who would love to be featured on one of those shows, what we're doing is shining
the light on leaders who become inspirations, beacons of hope for the individuals who follow
and have joined our program. So join us on that and if you're into hiring VAs, know that we've
learned to call that practice virtual abuse. We don't contribute to it. We don't believe in it.
We want you to learn who these people are, learn how to take care of them. What's really cool is
when you take care of the people that you're working with and you take an interest in their life,
they show up to play ball. They get things done really, really well. So come and enjoy our
resources. Then there's learnandgrowrich.net with Zach Ullman. Zach has become our official
chief financial officer at First Class Business. I love his brand. I love what he does. We get this
program called Power Launch at First Class Business. It's robust. It's crazy. It's insane.
He's built like an identical version of that, but for completely different positions and resources
for businesses that we don't touch. It is amazing how much we overlap and yet how our systems almost
don't touch each other. So the collaboration just made a lot of sense. He also came on the show.
You're welcome to check his episode out. I have been super impressed with the depth of Zach's
systems. I've worked with a lot of financial, what do they call them? Fracture, fractional,
yeah, fractured bones, fractional. Don't do it guys. Work with people who actually know what
they're doing and who are really dedicated to building your vision out. He's got a community
of a couple hundred people. Again, I cannot endorse Zach enough. What he's been able to drive for our
business in terms of clarity in a matter of weeks after me pretty much raking him over the coals
for months and months and months seeing as this really the guy who's going to help us drive the
financial side forward. Zach's the bomb. Then there's the Water Project. The Water Project
is an entity that we're not affiliated with, but I just love, I got curious about it. Speaking of,
when I found the Water Project, somebody had challenged me to move my brand away from
supporting a company called Our, Operation Underground Railroad. No, I did not move away
from supporting entities that help children who are facing the horrifying reality of sex trafficking.
I think it's very important that we look at and that we help the areas of life that are not
too comfortable to bring up. But as this employee, this person who has worked with me years ago,
brought up the Water Project, I did decide to dive into it. I began to realize that there's
places in the world that don't even have access to clean sources of water. There's literally
millions of people out there. I started to internalize that. I saw a picture like this.
This reminds me that there's kids out there who celebrate water more than my kids even celebrate
Christmas Day. All I have to do is contribute $5 or $10 to a specific community. I actually get to
see the results of that contribution thanks to the way the Water Project does things. I get to see
the sand dam that they build or the borehole well that they create. If you're in a position where
financially you can't give back to this, my hope is that you'll just talk about it with some people,
maybe over dinner, maybe over lunch today. Maybe you're inspired to share this with a friend,
tag that friend. Let the friend know about it. You never know how far the ripple effect of doing
good will go, but we've got 8 billion people to help on this world. So if there's another cause
out there that you want us to contribute to, drop the cause in the comments. Share it back to us.
I might even share it on the show. We always want to be doing everything we can to help out.
So without further ado, we're going to get back to helping you guys on how to cultivate curiosity.
This is a super, super important superpower. Let's be redundant here. For those of you visionary
leaders out there who are exploring and building your visions, Julie, thanks so much for joining
me on VisionPros Live. Thank you so much, Jackson. Absolutely. So back into the mode of curiosity,
who are we going to talk to today? We've got those who, we've got visionaries listening in.
What is your vision for curiosity for the people that you serve? What do you want them to do with
it? We've all read curious George. Where do we go from there? I want them to have fun at work.
I want them to feel that this is a learning organization. A lot of people, when they think
about education, it stops at school. Oh, I have these degrees. I have all of this. And it's just,
well, actually learning shouldn't stop at school. And we should actually invest in people. And I'm
not just talking about training. I'm talking about just making time for continual learning and having
this environment where people feel, I can admit I don't know stuff. And that there are people here
in this room, my colleagues, who may know more than me about this certain thing. And they also
want to learn from me about certain things. And that way there's a shift because I think the
workplace is actually, it can be very transactional and very extractive. And what I mean by that is,
absolutely you, I need someone to do this thing and you get paid for that. And your value is right
there. That's only, and it's, and it can feel extractive. I actually, my vision is how do we
create these learning organizations where people feel I'm not just here to give my labor so I can
get compensated. I'm here to learn. And also I feel good that people want to learn from me and that
we're building something together. Huge, huge, huge, huge. I love this. I learned this the hard way.
I remember hiring a few people on Fiverr and firing them pretty fast. And I remember pointing
fingers at them until I finally realized that there was three pointing back at me and no way
that applies in this. No way. I went back and looked and sure enough, I did a horrible job
trying to hire the first one. It was my fault, not his. And I was like, okay, second one was better.
Third one was better, but there was something missing. And so my fourth time hiring a designer
from Fiverr, I decided to ask them when their birthday was, what their favorite holiday was.
And did they want to be the world's greatest designer or did they have something else that
they want to pursue in life? And this person wanted to be in AI. This is way back in like 2012
or 13, somewhere in there. They wanted to be in AI and they loved Christmas and whatever else. And
they did like the best design job ever just by asking those little tiny questions. But I knew,
I was like, maybe if I stop treating people like a pair of shoes at Payless, maybe they'll show up
and really care about doing the work with me once I actually care about them as human beings.
Yeah. And I'll just share Jackson, my experience with Fiverr, it's taught me so much about how I
communicate because sometimes we want people to read our mind and just, oh, magically create this
thing that I have up here. Wait, have I actually articulated the vision? Have I put in examples of
what I want? Have I put in examples of what I don't want? Even actually working with Fiverr
has forced me to be a better communicator. Absolutely. It's huge. And the design world
has shown me exactly that. What's cool is when you find a really good designer and your designs
actually start to come to life, you begin to see just how inadequate your vision is. And you're
like, oh, I did explain it that way. And all the, what the heck was I thinking? And now you go back
to find where- Right. They actually followed my directions. But that, oh. And then if you actually
keep this, no, it's all an iteration, then it's just, I think this is my current, I think this
is the way to do it, but I don't know. So let's just get to this stage and then we'll reevaluate.
It's huge. Such an awesome opportunity. So with a curiosity aspect in relation to work,
I imagine that going into, I don't know, a giant corporate funeral home operation tomorrow and be
like, yeah, we're going to have fun guys. Let's do this. If that's not the existing culture,
I might not go over too well. How do you go about, I'm like super curious. What type of entities do
you work with? How do you go about the process of introducing the idea or making curiosity a thing
in the culture? Do you only work with companies like Google that are already ready to be curious
and awesome? Just sprained them. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we just finished our fourth year of business.
This was a learning lesson because I actually spent a lot of years in tech. And so I thought
naturally, oh, my clients will be tech. Jackson, we work with organizations that invest in
relationship building. They actually care about retention. They care about their people. And so
quite honestly, a lot of tech companies, because they can pay top dollar, it is more like, I need
you to do this thing. And by the way, if you can't do it, I'll get someone else to do it. And so
actually a lot of our clients are government and they're large nonprofits. And they're also more
of those relationship building in the private sector where relationship building is really
important, like finance and real estate, because sometimes it's what's the difference between this
bank and that bank. It's the relationship. And so, and so those are the kinds of clients that we
care about that they actually want learning to happen. And what, and they often say, oh,
I have curiosity. I'm the CEO. It's like, I care about curiosity or it's in our mission statement.
So this is resonating. And then what we have to, then we, I think we take the word curiosity for
granted. And that's why I say it's practice, because if you just say it's a trait, it's just
like, just be curious. And then we can go from there. If we go, no, let me talk about the times.
And Jackson, can I just share an example of recently when I realized I was not practicing
curiosity, it took me six months to get there. Yes. Yes. You know, I was just, I was having
issues with this, this disagreement and it was just, and I thought I was asking, why did you do
that? And what I was really asking was how could you, this possibly have happened when I told you
not to do it? What I really wanted them to do was admit they were wrong. And that is not curiosity,
right? That I wanted them to admit that they were wrong. And actually I had to move away. Once I
recognize that I was like, Oh, I'm actually the person who's not practicing curiosity here,
because I felt wronged. It gives me such chills because I know as a leader, we do this all the
time, right? We don't mean to, but we do. And part of leadership, you know, you're doing things that
others don't do and won't do. And, and, you know, you're trying to attempt things that are unusual
and different. You're going to fail at it. You're going to make mistakes. It's going to happen. And
so having the grace and, and like safety net of remembering that that's part of the curiosity
factor. It's, it's one of those important bowie, buoys to me of like, Oh yeah, that's okay. It
happens. We all, even the doctor, right? Even the doctor makes a mistake with it. I was talking to
another team member yesterday about the process of growth and why we want people to fail and how
important it is for our team members to see us as executives fail. And so, you know, when I, when I
watched Tiger Woods drastically blow a putting opportunity, right. And then he went to the other
side of the green and he tried the chip shot. He ruined the chip shot. I went all the way to the
other side of the green. He'd like four times in a row. I was as happy as could be watching that
because I was like, Oh, I do belong in a golf course. Even Tiger Woods does that. That's how
I play golf all the time, but now I can relate. I don't feel like I'm the only idiot who doesn't
know how to hit the darn ball in the little hole. So we, and we're in the workplace. If we're not
willing to be vulnerable with our people, we're not willing to showcase that we have our own
mistakes every day too. What type of culture are we creating? You know, we're like, what a rigid,
awkward, stuck up place. I couldn't survive in a place like that. And yeah, actually the easiest
thing that a leader can do is, is the draft form in, in public with their, with their team. So they
see it. I mean, you know, that TEDx talk I did, I had 70 people give me feedback over two months.
I had multiple, I had four open invitation, come watch me on zoom, these different stages.
And my team sees that they see that I am constantly drafting and not because I'm trying
to be perfect, but more of just, Oh, these little details, people hear it differently. And I actually
think a lot about accessibility. I just want my work to be as accessible as possible. And so if
I think people know what this word means, and then some people are coming back and they're just,
I don't know what that word means. Oh, but I can only get that if I open myself up for feedback.
Yeah. A lot of people listen to the show know that we were big on the pursuit of being our best,
right? Not, not being better than others, not being perfect, but I want to be my best self,
right? That's what you're looking at. And these opportunities then become, they're not a form of
stress or anxiety. They're an opportunity to increase the value of what we got in life. So
I do love that you share that. Let's, let me take you down a theory. So we talked about being open
as executives and leaders and creating a culture. I've got behind me that Patrick Mancioni's five
best functions of a team poster, huge fan of the idea of let's create trust. Let's engage in healthy
conflict, right? Let's be vulnerable, all those aspects. But when I get a back channel message
from an executive who doesn't want to be called out or is worried about calling me out, right?
And they're kind of putting a restraint on, no, no, no, we don't, we don't want to do things that
way here. Or I don't feel comfortable if we talk about that in an open forum. How do you,
how do you approach that? How do you help somebody move towards a culture where it's okay to,
again, not have to be right? Yeah. So, I mean, I think one is when you can operationalize feedback,
because a lot of people are, oh, we need to have feedback. It's just, all right, well, what we're
going to do is after this project ends, we're going to have a debrief and say the leader goes last. And
everyone has to say something affirming and something constructive. And you go around,
and I actually like it when the person with the least power in the room, that in turn, the most
junior person goes first, the contractor goes first. And then, and then also I like it if I
write it down and then read it out loud, because it keeps you more accountable to what you actually
said versus flexing to what other people say. So I think that's one thing. Something I actually
really learned recently, because sometimes I, you know, I work with government, which means I also
work with elected officials. And, and so there's a power dynamic there. And so I learned from
Port of Seattle Commissioner, Ryan Colkins, he shared, he actually gives feedback in private.
And the reason why is because sometimes if he gets it in public, it has this outsized perception,
you know, and so he realizes he has to, he has to give that constructive feedback privately,
because then it's so that there's not so much noise around it. So I do think it's important
that, I mean, it's a, it's a great learning opportunity to give it in a group setting.
And then there are some times where you, you give it privately because you don't want it to be
distracting. So again, it depends on the context. There's not a one size fits all rule.
I really liked that. And I can do better on my ability to harmonize. That's what I, what I hear.
My daughter's name is Harmony for a reason. It's a good constant reminder to, to aim for it. So
I've, I like that you also mentioned something I saw that Jeff Bezos does. And same thing. He has
the newest person in the, in the meeting, lead the meeting, you know, start first, and they go up
and start first and they go up in seniority from there, which allows leaders to listen more
and allows people to bring up thoughts and ideas that they wouldn't otherwise bring up
because they're intimidated by, they don't want to be wrong. And they, they want to just cater,
Oh no, no, what Jeff said is perfect. Let's just go with what Jeff said. Right. And it's a great way
to, to get more people to contribute ideas that no, Jeff or Jackson or anybody else wouldn't
necessarily get if we had opened our big mouth first. So that's another very helpful reality.
I would love to know, I want to go into my favorite question actually, just cause I want
to make sure we don't rush it. Julie, if this was the last chance you had to speak in public,
what powerful lesson can other visionaries learn from your experience?
Hmm. It's to admit when practicing curiosity has been hard for us and to be very specific about it.
And so the example that I just shared, she's like, Oh, that's a very specific example.
Cause I think I hear people who are very vague. Oh, failure is good. Make mistakes. And I think
that that is, I have, I've gotten a lot of positive reactions when people are just, Oh,
thank you for being real. Thank you for being real. And I'll share another thing is sometimes
you just got to share what you think is important. You don't, cause I think, especially when we think
about marketing, Oh, is this going to hit if I say this word or if I do this, I'll share. Recently,
I wrote this post about, about sobriety and because I just celebrated one year of dessert sobriety,
I am pre-diabetic and I was just, you know what? I, I cold Turkey. It was just, and every month
I celebrated that sobriety birthday. And I didn't know if people would think, Oh sugar.
Or they just like, that's what you're talking about Jackson. And I was just, I'm going to write
it because I feel this. I'm proud. I just came completed 12 months. I didn't think I could do
this. The responses to that people privately messaged me and told me about their own sobriety,
some people publicly. And, and so I think that you've got to just go, sometimes trust your
instincts and say it like, this is what I want to share. I don't know what people are going to think
about it, but I feel like this is a message I have to share. That's powerful. It's powerful.
It can lead to some painful outcomes as well. Right. That's part of life, right. As part of growth,
you know, as I think about the seed that has to break, right. In order for it to open and sprout
and it has to go through that dark environment. And then it comes out and there's storms and all
sorts of stuff. Like we're not going to escape the pains that, that can exist. I do want to highlight
those realities. So maybe it will help some of you prepare for it. When I was first doing like my
podcasting stuff way back in the day, going live on Facebook, a friend at the time said,
what are you going to stop with all this washed up discount Tony Robbins bull crap? And I was like,
I was my first public comment from somebody. And so it ended up, I felt isolated too. It's like,
oh, where is everybody? And then I also got messages privately from people, not because of that,
and independent of that, that were like, Hey, I love what you post. I'm sorry. I never reach out.
It's been a long time. Like you've been a huge inspiration to me that were like, Whoa, like I
made a difference in somebody's life. You never know who's going to appreciate what you're doing,
but that's why I appreciate what Julie said. It's your instinct, right? Follow what, what you're
called to do and trust that as much negativity as may come your way. If you did what you know was
best, that is going to have a brilliant and great effect for you and your life, no matter what
negativity comes your way. So thank you for, thank you for encouraging people to do that.
Can I share one more? Of course, especially because you're a marketing expert. I think you'll
really appreciate this vanity metrics. I've had to let go of vanity metrics before it's just, oh,
how many legs? Oh, what about this? And it's just, and what I realized is,
you know, I mean, my, the, there are people who care about what I do and they show up and maybe
they didn't share on social media, but then they tell me later on, Julie, I mean, I didn't react,
but I sent it to 20 people and I've been talking about it. And, and so I think that's something to
really separate something I've had to let go of, especially as an entrepreneur. I mean, I think
there's a lot of things that we can't see. I mean, I'll go back to the, I can't measure the amount
of blood that pumps through my heart, but I'm pretty sure it's important. I'm just going to leave
that to where it's at. Go ahead. And you know, even like my TEDx talk doesn't have that many
views, but you know what? I had 30 people who paid quite a bit of money on a Thursday afternoon,
taking time off work, fighting traffic to attend in person. I've seen many people who are like,
I'm going to give my time and give you feedback that to me, I was like, wow, people care. So I
think those are the things that we just have to remember vanity metrics. That's, and then what
actually matters is it what actually matters? I think is a big key on that. Um, for, for all
you listeners, that's what I hope you catch about this is the metrics matter. And there's a context
for where they matter and how they matter and why. Right. And if I look above my head right here,
there's a, there's an eyeball and that eyeball shows a giant zero next to it. Um, which means
that so theoretically nobody's listening and nobody is here. Um, right. And I have seen that
proven wrong over and over and over based on what happens both live and what happens in the world.
I mean, we're in the top 5% of podcasts globally now. Um, and again, vanity metric, right? Does
that mean anything to anybody? Maybe, but not it's important. I'm grateful for it, but what I'm most
grateful for is I'm going to get up. I'm going to do the work. I'm going to show up for the people
who I show up for. I'm going to give my absolute best. And the by-product of doing that is already
guaranteed. Why? Because I trust in the law of principles. I trust in the law of attraction.
I trust in the law of the harvest. I know the great things come from it. It's what most of the
greatest leaders in this world talk about. And so that's what we stick to. So these are super
powerful lessons. And, um, I want to circle back again to what you said about curiosity and how,
um, you said admit when curiosity has been hard for us and to be specific about it. Um,
what a great framework as, as leaders, like to be able to open up a safe space for people to then
dive deeper into curiosity. Um, it's just brilliant. You shared so much brilliant wisdom today,
Julie, that I'm going to, like, I'm almost not podcasting today. I'm almost just like eating
this up as a personal coaching session. Um, and so those of you listening, I hope you're getting the
same thing out of this in the show notes, of course, below the, the episode, we'll have action steps
so you can get in contact with Julie. You can find out about her book. We'll have the Ted talk on
there too. So you can go watch that. Maybe you're one of the lucky out of the 2000, right? Or the
20,000 beyond that that aren't counted. The, the key that I've found with Dr. Julie today is that
she's going to show up and give her maximum value. And we live in a world where curiosity is
suffocating, um, you know, where people aren't able to dive into it, where they don't appreciate it,
where they see it as something that's weird or strange rather than individualized appreciation
for maximizing what's possible in life. So Julie, thank you for everything that you're doing,
everything that you gave us today. I am going to be an avid follower of what you're up to. Any
final thoughts you want to share with the audience? Jackson, I just really appreciate what you're
doing and thank you so much for, for creating the space for people to learn. Absolutely. Vision
pros. If you've got thoughts and curiosity, send them our way. We're, we're eager students
of the process as well. If you have a company that's looking to incorporate, um, results,
by the way, if you have a company that's looking to incorporate results,
one of the greatest ways to do that in my opinion is exploring curiosity with Julie. You probably
already have all of the answers within you for what needs to be done, but what you need are people
who can help you get back to centered on exploring those. And I can see that Julie's very good at
that. She already did that for me in big ways in this lesson, in this, in this, uh, episode in ways
that you guys won't even know about, but my team will very soon. We're going to have some very
fun talks about this vision pros have a fantastic rest of your day and we'll see on the next episode.
Thank you for being here today. I'm really happy that you tuned into vision pros live.
I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes continue to move forward. This is
going to get more and more fun. We'll have more and more engagement as well. We'll invite people
to participate in the show and thank you for giving us your time and attention. Have an excellent
time building out your vision.