1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,600 We've got cultures going through all sorts of stuff right now. 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,200 You know, there's a return to office mandates that are happening. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,560 We've got people who are very, very in love with the idea of working 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:13,560 from home at this point. 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,600 I've been working from home since 2010. 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,000 I don't know how many people know that, but I've almost always worked from home. 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,360 And there's the argument that working from home kills curiosity, 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,040 ingenuity and engagement. 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,200 And there's an argument that actually there's ways to explore that and create 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,720 productivity even from the home office. 11 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:35,960 And you, Dr. 12 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,440 Julie Pham, help people with curiosity and bringing curiosity in the workplace. 13 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,920 And work should be more fun in my opinion. 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:43,760 So I love what you do. 15 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:44,560 I'm like, okay, cool. 16 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,720 What are your thoughts on what's going on in the present world of curiosity and 17 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:53,440 corporate and coaches and working from home and the whole nine yards? 18 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,800 I think one of the things that actually kills curiosity is this is problem solving. 19 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,280 And it's because it's because we're, I need a solution now. 20 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,840 And what is the outcome going to look like? 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,040 And sometimes actually what we need to do is slow down and say, what is this 22 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,200 problem teaching me, huh? 23 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:12,880 What are some questions I need to ask? 24 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,080 I was actually just in a call this morning and we were debriefing on an event. 25 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,320 And we started, we just started jumping to solution. 26 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:19,320 Well, this is what we need to fix. 27 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:20,080 This is what we need to fix. 28 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,880 And it's like, wait, and the facilitator, I was a participant. 29 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,040 The facilitator actually stepped back and said, okay, before we get to solutions, 30 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,720 why don't we talk, remind ourselves, what was the vision for the event? 31 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,480 And so actually, I think that's one thing that, that really our need for 32 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:43,520 solutions hurts curiosity and the need for a right answer. 33 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:51,200 I think people are so scared of being, of, of offending someone, of hurting 34 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,200 someone. 35 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,000 Jackson, I remember once I was, I was leading this big group session and I was, I 36 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,240 was guiding people through how to ask questions, approach difficult 37 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,680 conversations with curiosity. 38 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:08,000 And at the end, this one person said, you've taught us how to ask questions, but 39 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,560 what I really want to know is how to answer them. 40 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,920 And it's like, well, that's actually the question of leadership. 41 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,360 We don't know. 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,320 And so I think that's something else that, that hurts. 43 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,600 Say that again, for all of you who might've missed the punchline there. 44 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,440 What is the purpose of leadership or how do you say that? 45 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,480 The purpose of listening is to ask questions and to know that these, that 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:35,200 there is no one. 47 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:36,400 We don't know. 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:37,120 We don't know. 49 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:37,680 We don't know. 50 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,040 And also Jackson, one of my favorite stats is because when I talk about 51 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,120 curiosity, people are just, oh yeah, don't worry. 52 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:43,760 I'm curious. 53 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:44,240 It's me. 54 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:45,600 I'm, I'm all curious. 55 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:46,400 Other people though. 56 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:47,520 Right. 57 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,240 And yet one of, one of my favorite stats aside is that 70% of people face 58 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,840 obstacles asking questions at work. 59 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:55,840 70%. 60 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,560 And so actually, and I actually think sometimes consultants study, because you 61 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,120 have to be somewhat self-aware to be able to answer that. 62 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,320 Well, that's another thing. 63 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,200 I think something like, uh, most people like 80, 85% think of themselves as 64 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:09,680 self-aware. 65 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,640 And then that same study shows under the criteria of self-awareness, only 66 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:14,160 about 15% of them are. 67 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,280 So there's also that there's actually one of the things that I love looking 68 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,880 at is that cognitive dissonance. 69 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,280 And I can give you numerous examples of this, but I will just, since I started 70 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,720 this thread around, why is it, why are we afraid or what, what are the 71 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,080 obstacles to asking questions? 72 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,640 I actually learned this through working with some of my clients because I 73 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:35,280 would take them through, okay, this is, this is inquiry method. 74 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,160 And then I would get pushback and then they actually started sharing with me 75 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,720 all these reasons why they can't ask questions that became an article. 76 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,280 It was like, Oh, you know, it's just fear of fear of looking like you don't 77 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,920 know fear of looking like you weren't listening. 78 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,440 Maybe someone talked about it already. 79 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,480 Fear of challenging someone. 80 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,160 Maybe there's a power dynamic fear of seeing passive. 81 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,760 It's just, Oh, well, if a question you ask a question, it's like, well, you're 82 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:04,800 not assertive enough. 83 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,480 And so there's, so there are all of these things that actually get asked 84 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,560 all of these things that actually get in the way. 85 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:16,720 And that's why when I think about curiosity, I think a lot of people 86 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,160 emphasize the why, why we should have curiosity. 87 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,520 I actually think we all can use time and cynic, you know, he got us all 88 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:24,320 thinking about it. 89 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,360 Why, but the thing is, I actually think what people really struggle with is, 90 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,760 is the how, and it's actually admitting when we don't want to practice 91 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:32,240 curiosity. 92 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,840 So Jackson, I've been talking, I've been describing curiosity. 93 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:40,240 I've been using, I said practice, and that's because a lot of people, when 94 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,040 we talk about curiosity, we think about it like a trait, you know, cause 95 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,640 Jackson before this call, he said, I'm curious. 96 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:45,680 I'm like, I'm curious too. 97 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,280 I actually think we are all curious. 98 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:48,400 Right. 99 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,880 What's hard is to admit when we don't want to practice curiosity though. 100 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:53,380 Cool. 101 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,080 That's a really, really great point. 102 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,760 I actually, and on a more boring subject, I tie the same reality to integrity 103 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,960 because a lot of people say, looking for somebody with integrity. 104 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,320 I'm like, okay, everybody in the world has integrity to some degree. 105 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:09,280 Right. 106 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:12,800 And so it's a matter of like, to what level and degree do you go towards? 107 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,240 And it's that practice aspect. 108 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,400 Am I practicing integrity? 109 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:16,640 Right. 110 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,040 Am I doing things to build that within myself? 111 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,840 Am I doing the same thing with curiosity? 112 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,240 It's a, it's a verb. 113 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,400 And, and actually, you know, speaking about integrity and with curiosity, 114 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:33,200 the workplace environment needs to, to allow for that. 115 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,200 I mean, someone could come in with a lot of integrity. 116 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,400 She said, oh, but I'm not going to be rewarded for my integrity here. 117 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:39,040 Right. 118 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:39,600 Well, I'm an auditor. 119 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:40,560 How are they going to practice it? 120 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:44,640 As a marketer, revenue growth expert, like that's part of what I do. 121 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:47,280 And I'm like the least favorite out there. 122 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:49,200 And I, and I know why, and I'm okay with it. 123 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,840 It's because I'm willing to audit and I'm going to say that campaign's going to lead to X, Y, or Z, 124 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:57,600 or you're doing this and it's against FCC compliance, 125 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,360 or you're going to be doing that, but your results are, you know, 126 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,600 I'm willing to say all the hard truths they don't want to hear, which is, 127 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,000 uh, the, like it's, it's easy to not want somebody to work with you 128 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,680 when they're going to be that particular about how things go. 129 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,400 It's much easier to just be the guy in sunglasses that stands in front of a plane you don't own and, 130 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,440 and say the funnel is going to work, you know, just make it happen. 131 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,360 But there's no, there's not a lot of integrity with that approach. 132 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,880 So I love that you talked about how in workplaces, we have to become aware, 133 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,720 we have the opportunity as visionaries, as leaders to become aware of, 134 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:41,440 are we facilitating an environment where integrity is rewarded when it's difficult 135 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,080 and where curiosity is expanded upon, um, in a, in a safe way and there were questions 136 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,080 are able to be asked. And I think part of that too is, 137 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,480 there's a self training as a leader, what do I need to do to make room for those questions? 138 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:02,000 And then how can I retrain or rewire my team members, brains and hearts to realize it's a 139 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,920 safe place, even though the last places they were at weren't necessarily safe places to, 140 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:09,760 to bring up the same types of realities. So, 141 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:16,000 Mm hmm. Yeah. And if there is a, something I like to ask is, you know, talking about, um, 142 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,160 you know, so the practice of curiosity, I think of as having these three elements, 143 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,240 one is self-awareness, the second is relationship building, and the third is clear communication. 144 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,800 So that first one is self-awareness is about how do I be curious about myself? How do I practice 145 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:34,160 inward curiosity? Uh, the second one is relationship building. So how do I be curious about other 146 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:40,720 people that outward curiosity, and also how do I let them be curious about me? And which means 147 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,840 inviting them to react to whatever I'm saying that will actually expand how I think about that. 148 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,480 And that part is really vulnerable. So I think there are people who are just, oh, I've asked you 149 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:56,000 all these questions. And, and then sometimes I've heard people, but they don't ask me questions. 150 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,720 Like, well, sometimes you have to share to let people know it's okay, especially for leaders. 151 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:06,480 Well, why aren't, why isn't it, why aren't people asking me questions? Cause there's a power dynamic. 152 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:12,400 Right. And, and so, but going back to that, the relationship building part, that back and forth, 153 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:18,080 that's reciprocity. And you need to have that reciprocity and learning for there to be 154 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,120 for there to be relationship building. Cause sometimes I hear people say, 155 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:28,320 it's not my job to educate you. I go look it up. And it's just, well, then my response to that is 156 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,880 like, I'm actually not looking for education. I'm looking for engagement. If you don't think you 157 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:38,080 have anything to learn from me, and we're not going to build a relationship. Right. So that like, 158 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,600 that's the second element of practicing curiosity is the relationship building. 159 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:47,200 And then the third element is listening to understand, asking questions when we don't 160 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:55,680 understand and then telling and giving specific examples and stories from our life. And that 161 00:08:55,680 --> 00:09:02,880 means not just being vague and, and abstract. And so sorry, I mean, you're obviously, 162 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,000 you want to finish that real quick? Cause no, no, no. I'm going to, and I'll say something else, 163 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,120 but please, I thought you said a third one earlier. I got this relationship building. 164 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,960 Oh, clear communication. Cause then you said, let's understand. I was like, that's one of my 165 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:22,880 favorite lines, like favorite quotes and things to think through in regards to relationships. 166 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,680 And so clear communication is the third one. And then under the clear communication, 167 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:32,080 it's got these, the listening, the having and the being specific with our stories. 168 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Question for you in regards to that. So are these linear? And that stair one has to come first, 169 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,160 stair two has to come second, stair three has to come third. Cause when I heard it, I was like, 170 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,480 wait, wouldn't clear communication come before building relationships in order to get great 171 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:53,120 relationships. But what's, what's your theory? That's a great question. I think of as imagine, 172 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,080 I do think that self, I think self-awareness actually has to come first. Yeah. And then, 173 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,280 and then there's the relationship building part. And then the clear communication is actually under 174 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:07,280 both. And, but they also feed each other, right? Because sometimes we only get self-awareness by 175 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,720 sharing because there's only so much I know I can ask myself all these questions, but it's only until 176 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:19,200 Jackson I share with something with you and then you react to it. Yeah. Right. I'm looking, I'm like, 177 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,800 okay, triangular effect of right. Spiritual, mental and physical. And there's reasons why people can 178 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:31,200 justify that. Which one, which, which, which, um, what do they call that? Um, leg of the stool, 179 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,680 right. Is the one that matters the most. Um, right. And then there's the bridge aspect. Now, 180 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:40,640 now I'm looking at this like a bridge because you're right. The clear communication one feeds 181 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,200 both. Um, you know, and so there's so many, there's so many cool ways to explore this. 182 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:52,400 And it's one of those topics that, like you said, if we're so hell bent on solving the problem in 183 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,520 the here and now, right. If somebody's listening to this podcast and like, why aren't they talking 184 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:04,320 about funnels yet? All day today. And I really want to just learn like this, the super easy 185 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:09,040 solution to how this works. Like, well, you missed it. The super easy solution was hang in there with 186 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:16,480 it. Like practices. So, Oh, this is deep. Cause we have to pause, right? Because it's just, I mean, 187 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,240 maybe that thing worked last year and you're just, okay, well, I'm going to do that exact same thing. 188 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,440 And the world has changed. The world has changed. So that thing that if you were just using the same 189 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:31,040 recipe without recognizing the world has changed and you expect the same results, then you are 190 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,000 actually, you're blind to the fact that the world has changed. And cause I think context really 191 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,640 matters. And that's another thing, Jackson. I constantly think about context, which if we 192 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:46,080 think about the context, then we can appreciate things are dynamic, which means there is no right 193 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:53,600 or wrong answer. And the answers are constantly changing. And so we have to be, we have to even 194 00:11:53,600 --> 00:12:00,720 get curious about the context of, so for example, you know, I, I, I do, I think a lot about respect 195 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,880 and how do we be curious about respect? What I want for respect at work is going to be different 196 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:12,480 from home. Totally different, totally different. And I, um, I actually have this, I'm having my 197 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:18,480 best friend the other day, two days ago to reinforce your point on this. And he talked about like going 198 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,600 on vacation together. Um, and I was, we're looking to do that. Late, yeah, uh-huh. Late January. And, 199 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,360 and I told him, I was like, look, I was like, you know what? And he's like, where would you want? 200 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,040 I was like, I don't really care where we go. I was like, I've kind of seen it all. And I'm not 201 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:36,320 really big into seeing things. What I would want is if we went on vacation, you plan it all. 202 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,440 I just want to be with you when you're happy. Right. And I just want to enjoy the moment and 203 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,560 find new random people. Like that's what I love to do. Everything else is just a bonus and like 204 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:52,480 superfluous to it. And he's like, well, I love planning vacations. And I was like, this is 205 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,000 perfect. Why? Because I plan everything at work. Right. And this is what I do. Like I organize 206 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,440 a good thing. What questions I'm going to ask. I research this and that I do it all day long. So 207 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,400 when I'm done with work, I'm done planning. I want to go play my guitar and just find some random 208 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:12,560 song that hits me emotionally. And I'm in it. So there's that, that separation and exploration 209 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:17,680 of reality that it's okay to be different in different aspects of life. In fact, it's not just 210 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:22,320 okay. That's part of the vibrant reality of a purposeful existence, in my opinion. 211 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,520 And then, and actually Jackson, what you just, cause our role can actually change depending 212 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,440 on who we're with. Right? So if you are with some people, with a group of friends where you are the 213 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,800 most organized person and you know, you are going to be annoyed if you, if it doesn't go a certain 214 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,480 way, then you step up and you're the organizer. But if you're actually with someone who's much 215 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,440 more picky and wants certain things more than you, then like, I'm going to step back and I'll do 216 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:53,200 whatever you want. And, and so we will, we will step up and change it or step back depending on 217 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:59,600 who we're with. And that, that happens at work too. And yes. And so I think it's really important to 218 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:06,320 recognize that it's dynamic and that, I mean, you know, another example of right or wrong thinking, 219 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,480 the way people think about respect is they think we talk about it, respect versus disrespect. 220 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,320 If I don't get respect the way I want, you know what that is? That's disrespect. Right. Right. 221 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,960 And like, and so, and then you just hear people say, Oh, you need to respect me. And they're 222 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,720 talking about it as if we mean as if it's fixed and universal. We're such victims. I'm just, 223 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:33,920 when it's the way I think about it is more, it's more relative because it's we actually, Jackson, 224 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,680 you and I want to respect one another. We know that we can agree on how it feels to feel seen, 225 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,000 heard, acknowledged. What we disagree about is, well, what does it look like to you, Jackson? 226 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,480 Right. What does it look like to me? Do you want me to CC you on all the emails? Because if you 227 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,200 did that to me, I'd be like, don't fill in my, don't fill in my email box. But some people actually 228 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,560 feel that they are not included. If you don't, if you take them off, they're like, why did you take 229 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:03,440 me off? And they take that really personally, right? This book by Dr. Peter Drucker, the effective 230 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,400 executive, one of the best books of all time for business. Thank you, Warren Buffett for saying 231 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,240 that. Thank you, Bill Gates for saying that. Thank you, LeBron James for saying that for track record 232 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,160 purposes. It's also one of the only books I know that people don't know about. But it's 233 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:22,400 one of the books that people don't implement after they read it. He talks about that and he gives a 234 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:29,760 very easy recipe for how to include people, you know, without, so they don't feel like you're 235 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,520 forgetting them. But I love that you're adding a new dynamic onto that as well. And you're right. 236 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,440 I have worked with executives who are like, I don't want to be included on that. Oh, you know, 237 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,480 I'm like, why are you including me on it? And that presents an entirely new different 238 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:48,400 curiosity opportunity as well. I'm like, all right, do you, do you work on training an executive on 239 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,120 being able to delegate their inbox out a little more so they don't feel that way? Or do you let 240 00:15:53,120 --> 00:16:00,000 it go and just not make the exception for that one person? There's so many things to explore when it 241 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,760 comes to working relationships, dynamics, and those you listening in, I hope you have in your 242 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,880 heart the same thing that I'm going to assume Dr. Fam and I have, which is just a love for exploring 243 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,440 this stuff, right? Just, just appreciating that we don't get it. We don't know we're trying, 244 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,320 we're going to continue to explore it and we get to benefit from that process as do our team members. 245 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:27,040 So before we cut for a little bit of a break, what are three resources, Julie, that have gotten you 246 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:33,120 to where you are as a visionary leader? What, what things can we use to, to improve our own journeys? 247 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,880 I'll just say that the, uh, I really like this book called stories that stick. It's about 248 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:44,240 storytelling and how personal knowing the story of our own company and our ourselves actually helps 249 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:51,440 us in, uh, health later on. Um, there is another favorite book right now is, uh, Charles Dugan's 250 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:56,880 super communicators. I think that's a great book about how different ways that people, um, communicate. 251 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,160 That's not personality styles. It's more of, it's just got lots of really great, um, stories. And 252 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,680 I'm also a huge fan of Malcolm Gladwell. I'm, I'm a historian by training. So anything revisionist 253 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:13,440 history, the podcast, I love that because I think that's about reframing. So those are three. 254 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:20,800 Wow. What's his podcast called revisionist history. I did not know that. And I am totally, 255 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:28,000 that's a huge, I read, I accidentally read his book talking with strangers. Um, have you read it? 256 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,760 Yeah. Oh my gosh. What a mind blowing book. I, I thought it was going to be a book on like 257 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:40,720 communication and relationships related to business. And then found out, no, this is like a, 258 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:46,880 a world paradigm shifting book and like four different capacities. And that book is dark and 259 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:53,120 like amazing and like dives into hope too, but like, Oh my, you'll love his, you'll love his podcast. 260 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:59,360 Yeah, I bet. No, I, I, anything that guy does is absolutely worth consuming because he is so 261 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:05,280 good at exploring all the different angles and possibilities and research available. Like I, 262 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,400 my hat is off to him all day long. Um, so I'm really glad you mentioned Malcolm and I'm excited 263 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,200 that I've been to that podcast. So, um, I know you got a Ted X talk out there as well. I am 264 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,000 committing now that we've had this conversation as well. I am totally watching your Ted X talk, um, 265 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,880 after we get off and probably for part of my, my Saturday fun time, I will dive into that. 266 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,040 We're going to be right back after these messages and we'll dive into Julie's podcast. 267 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,520 Julie's vision of curiosity and how you can implement curiosity into your cultures. 268 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,800 All right. Welcome in to vision pros live with Jackson Callum. I'm your show host. 269 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,960 We'll be doing interviews for visionary entrepreneurs and guest leaders who are 270 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:56,480 building fantastic visions out there. Hey, what's up and welcome into another episode of vision 271 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,720 pros live. I'm your show host Jackson Callum founder and CEO of first-class business. And 272 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,360 I'm super excited to have Dr. Julie FAM on today because we get to talk about curiosity 273 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:11,680 and I love curiosity. I love that she talked about how it is a practice. It is not necessary. It can 274 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:16,400 be a trait for sure, but we're talking about the art of being able to implement it more and more 275 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:21,920 often in life. And I have found that's one of those great recipes or ingredients rather, 276 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,920 secret ingredients to drive more happiness and fun and self-awareness, discovery, exploration. 277 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:34,320 Like you get to enjoy life more as you dive further into the aspects of what curiosity 278 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,360 entails. So we'll get back on that in just a minute. As we do a couple of programs for you 279 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,440 guys to be curious about. One of them is Obrador de la Hice de Trabajo para Latinos. If you're 280 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:49,280 curious, that is Spanish for opportunities for Latinos spoke by a gringo who sometimes speaks 281 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,440 okay and sometimes doesn't. My hope is that all of you will explore what we're building with 282 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,320 opportunities. We have a version of this for India. We also have a version of this for the 283 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Philippines and we're basically training virtual assistants, people who've never heard of the 284 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,840 opportunity to be a virtual assistant. I'm talking about people who don't know about LinkedIn, 285 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,560 people who don't know that Canva exists, Upwork, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Fiverr, et cetera. These are 286 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,520 all new foreign materials to them and we help them learn that there are opportunities throughout 287 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,240 the world where they could get hired. We hire most of them within first class business ourselves as 288 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:28,240 well. It was a 90 day training program. If you know of a Latino, an Indian leader or somebody 289 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,960 from the Philippines who would love to be featured on one of those shows, what we're doing is shining 290 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:39,600 the light on leaders who become inspirations, beacons of hope for the individuals who follow 291 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:46,400 and have joined our program. So join us on that and if you're into hiring VAs, know that we've 292 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,520 learned to call that practice virtual abuse. We don't contribute to it. We don't believe in it. 293 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,520 We want you to learn who these people are, learn how to take care of them. What's really cool is 294 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,280 when you take care of the people that you're working with and you take an interest in their life, 295 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,920 they show up to play ball. They get things done really, really well. So come and enjoy our 296 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:10,320 resources. Then there's learnandgrowrich.net with Zach Ullman. Zach has become our official 297 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:15,440 chief financial officer at First Class Business. I love his brand. I love what he does. We get this 298 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,560 program called Power Launch at First Class Business. It's robust. It's crazy. It's insane. 299 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:26,720 He's built like an identical version of that, but for completely different positions and resources 300 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,440 for businesses that we don't touch. It is amazing how much we overlap and yet how our systems almost 301 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,520 don't touch each other. So the collaboration just made a lot of sense. He also came on the show. 302 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,240 You're welcome to check his episode out. I have been super impressed with the depth of Zach's 303 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:46,160 systems. I've worked with a lot of financial, what do they call them? Fracture, fractional, 304 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,640 yeah, fractured bones, fractional. Don't do it guys. Work with people who actually know what 305 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,320 they're doing and who are really dedicated to building your vision out. He's got a community 306 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,760 of a couple hundred people. Again, I cannot endorse Zach enough. What he's been able to drive for our 307 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:07,760 business in terms of clarity in a matter of weeks after me pretty much raking him over the coals 308 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,280 for months and months and months seeing as this really the guy who's going to help us drive the 309 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,840 financial side forward. Zach's the bomb. Then there's the Water Project. The Water Project 310 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:22,800 is an entity that we're not affiliated with, but I just love, I got curious about it. Speaking of, 311 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,800 when I found the Water Project, somebody had challenged me to move my brand away from 312 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,640 supporting a company called Our, Operation Underground Railroad. No, I did not move away 313 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:41,440 from supporting entities that help children who are facing the horrifying reality of sex trafficking. 314 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:48,000 I think it's very important that we look at and that we help the areas of life that are not 315 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:54,960 too comfortable to bring up. But as this employee, this person who has worked with me years ago, 316 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:00,240 brought up the Water Project, I did decide to dive into it. I began to realize that there's 317 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,800 places in the world that don't even have access to clean sources of water. There's literally 318 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:10,080 millions of people out there. I started to internalize that. I saw a picture like this. 319 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:15,200 This reminds me that there's kids out there who celebrate water more than my kids even celebrate 320 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:22,000 Christmas Day. All I have to do is contribute $5 or $10 to a specific community. I actually get to 321 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,800 see the results of that contribution thanks to the way the Water Project does things. I get to see 322 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,680 the sand dam that they build or the borehole well that they create. If you're in a position where 323 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,400 financially you can't give back to this, my hope is that you'll just talk about it with some people, 324 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,760 maybe over dinner, maybe over lunch today. Maybe you're inspired to share this with a friend, 325 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:47,760 tag that friend. Let the friend know about it. You never know how far the ripple effect of doing 326 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:53,680 good will go, but we've got 8 billion people to help on this world. So if there's another cause 327 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,000 out there that you want us to contribute to, drop the cause in the comments. Share it back to us. 328 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,080 I might even share it on the show. We always want to be doing everything we can to help out. 329 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,360 So without further ado, we're going to get back to helping you guys on how to cultivate curiosity. 330 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:13,200 This is a super, super important superpower. Let's be redundant here. For those of you visionary 331 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,880 leaders out there who are exploring and building your visions, Julie, thanks so much for joining 332 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:25,440 me on VisionPros Live. Thank you so much, Jackson. Absolutely. So back into the mode of curiosity, 333 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,240 who are we going to talk to today? We've got those who, we've got visionaries listening in. 334 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,680 What is your vision for curiosity for the people that you serve? What do you want them to do with 335 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,960 it? We've all read curious George. Where do we go from there? I want them to have fun at work. 336 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:46,960 I want them to feel that this is a learning organization. A lot of people, when they think 337 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,960 about education, it stops at school. Oh, I have these degrees. I have all of this. And it's just, 338 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:56,800 well, actually learning shouldn't stop at school. And we should actually invest in people. And I'm 339 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,800 not just talking about training. I'm talking about just making time for continual learning and having 340 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:08,080 this environment where people feel, I can admit I don't know stuff. And that there are people here 341 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:13,040 in this room, my colleagues, who may know more than me about this certain thing. And they also 342 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,200 want to learn from me about certain things. And that way there's a shift because I think the 343 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:23,760 workplace is actually, it can be very transactional and very extractive. And what I mean by that is, 344 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:31,440 absolutely you, I need someone to do this thing and you get paid for that. And your value is right 345 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,720 there. That's only, and it's, and it can feel extractive. I actually, my vision is how do we 346 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:42,320 create these learning organizations where people feel I'm not just here to give my labor so I can 347 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:48,320 get compensated. I'm here to learn. And also I feel good that people want to learn from me and that 348 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,200 we're building something together. Huge, huge, huge, huge. I love this. I learned this the hard way. 349 00:25:53,920 --> 00:26:01,120 I remember hiring a few people on Fiverr and firing them pretty fast. And I remember pointing 350 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:05,520 fingers at them until I finally realized that there was three pointing back at me and no way 351 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,960 that applies in this. No way. I went back and looked and sure enough, I did a horrible job 352 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,120 trying to hire the first one. It was my fault, not his. And I was like, okay, second one was better. 353 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:20,800 Third one was better, but there was something missing. And so my fourth time hiring a designer 354 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:26,720 from Fiverr, I decided to ask them when their birthday was, what their favorite holiday was. 355 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,000 And did they want to be the world's greatest designer or did they have something else that 356 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:40,960 they want to pursue in life? And this person wanted to be in AI. This is way back in like 2012 357 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:47,920 or 13, somewhere in there. They wanted to be in AI and they loved Christmas and whatever else. And 358 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:56,240 they did like the best design job ever just by asking those little tiny questions. But I knew, 359 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:04,400 I was like, maybe if I stop treating people like a pair of shoes at Payless, maybe they'll show up 360 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,080 and really care about doing the work with me once I actually care about them as human beings. 361 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,240 Yeah. And I'll just share Jackson, my experience with Fiverr, it's taught me so much about how I 362 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:20,160 communicate because sometimes we want people to read our mind and just, oh, magically create this 363 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:26,080 thing that I have up here. Wait, have I actually articulated the vision? Have I put in examples of 364 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:31,440 what I want? Have I put in examples of what I don't want? Even actually working with Fiverr 365 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:37,680 has forced me to be a better communicator. Absolutely. It's huge. And the design world 366 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,640 has shown me exactly that. What's cool is when you find a really good designer and your designs 367 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,960 actually start to come to life, you begin to see just how inadequate your vision is. And you're 368 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:52,080 like, oh, I did explain it that way. And all the, what the heck was I thinking? And now you go back 369 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:58,320 to find where- Right. They actually followed my directions. But that, oh. And then if you actually 370 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:05,440 keep this, no, it's all an iteration, then it's just, I think this is my current, I think this 371 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,760 is the way to do it, but I don't know. So let's just get to this stage and then we'll reevaluate. 372 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:17,040 It's huge. Such an awesome opportunity. So with a curiosity aspect in relation to work, 373 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:25,760 I imagine that going into, I don't know, a giant corporate funeral home operation tomorrow and be 374 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:31,600 like, yeah, we're going to have fun guys. Let's do this. If that's not the existing culture, 375 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:38,480 I might not go over too well. How do you go about, I'm like super curious. What type of entities do 376 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:46,880 you work with? How do you go about the process of introducing the idea or making curiosity a thing 377 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,880 in the culture? Do you only work with companies like Google that are already ready to be curious 378 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:56,720 and awesome? Just sprained them. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we just finished our fourth year of business. 379 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,320 This was a learning lesson because I actually spent a lot of years in tech. And so I thought 380 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,760 naturally, oh, my clients will be tech. Jackson, we work with organizations that invest in 381 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:14,160 relationship building. They actually care about retention. They care about their people. And so 382 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,360 quite honestly, a lot of tech companies, because they can pay top dollar, it is more like, I need 383 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,880 you to do this thing. And by the way, if you can't do it, I'll get someone else to do it. And so 384 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,120 actually a lot of our clients are government and they're large nonprofits. And they're also more 385 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,000 of those relationship building in the private sector where relationship building is really 386 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,520 important, like finance and real estate, because sometimes it's what's the difference between this 387 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:44,880 bank and that bank. It's the relationship. And so, and so those are the kinds of clients that we 388 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,440 care about that they actually want learning to happen. And what, and they often say, oh, 389 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,880 I have curiosity. I'm the CEO. It's like, I care about curiosity or it's in our mission statement. 390 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:01,760 So this is resonating. And then what we have to, then we, I think we take the word curiosity for 391 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,960 granted. And that's why I say it's practice, because if you just say it's a trait, it's just 392 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:13,760 like, just be curious. And then we can go from there. If we go, no, let me talk about the times. 393 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,000 And Jackson, can I just share an example of recently when I realized I was not practicing 394 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:24,160 curiosity, it took me six months to get there. Yes. Yes. You know, I was just, I was having 395 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:30,400 issues with this, this disagreement and it was just, and I thought I was asking, why did you do 396 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:35,360 that? And what I was really asking was how could you, this possibly have happened when I told you 397 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:43,600 not to do it? What I really wanted them to do was admit they were wrong. And that is not curiosity, 398 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,720 right? That I wanted them to admit that they were wrong. And actually I had to move away. Once I 399 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:55,120 recognize that I was like, Oh, I'm actually the person who's not practicing curiosity here, 400 00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:01,520 because I felt wronged. It gives me such chills because I know as a leader, we do this all the 401 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:07,120 time, right? We don't mean to, but we do. And part of leadership, you know, you're doing things that 402 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:14,080 others don't do and won't do. And, and, you know, you're trying to attempt things that are unusual 403 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,840 and different. You're going to fail at it. You're going to make mistakes. It's going to happen. And 404 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:23,440 so having the grace and, and like safety net of remembering that that's part of the curiosity 405 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:30,800 factor. It's, it's one of those important bowie, buoys to me of like, Oh yeah, that's okay. It 406 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:36,080 happens. We all, even the doctor, right? Even the doctor makes a mistake with it. I was talking to 407 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:42,960 another team member yesterday about the process of growth and why we want people to fail and how 408 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:49,760 important it is for our team members to see us as executives fail. And so, you know, when I, when I 409 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:56,880 watched Tiger Woods drastically blow a putting opportunity, right. And then he went to the other 410 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,120 side of the green and he tried the chip shot. He ruined the chip shot. I went all the way to the 411 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,760 other side of the green. He'd like four times in a row. I was as happy as could be watching that 412 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:11,360 because I was like, Oh, I do belong in a golf course. Even Tiger Woods does that. That's how 413 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,320 I play golf all the time, but now I can relate. I don't feel like I'm the only idiot who doesn't 414 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:22,240 know how to hit the darn ball in the little hole. So we, and we're in the workplace. If we're not 415 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,720 willing to be vulnerable with our people, we're not willing to showcase that we have our own 416 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:32,480 mistakes every day too. What type of culture are we creating? You know, we're like, what a rigid, 417 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:38,960 awkward, stuck up place. I couldn't survive in a place like that. And yeah, actually the easiest 418 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:47,120 thing that a leader can do is, is the draft form in, in public with their, with their team. So they 419 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,480 see it. I mean, you know, that TEDx talk I did, I had 70 people give me feedback over two months. 420 00:32:53,120 --> 00:33:00,480 I had multiple, I had four open invitation, come watch me on zoom, these different stages. 421 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:07,200 And my team sees that they see that I am constantly drafting and not because I'm trying 422 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:13,040 to be perfect, but more of just, Oh, these little details, people hear it differently. And I actually 423 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:19,280 think a lot about accessibility. I just want my work to be as accessible as possible. And so if 424 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,040 I think people know what this word means, and then some people are coming back and they're just, 425 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:29,360 I don't know what that word means. Oh, but I can only get that if I open myself up for feedback. 426 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,480 Yeah. A lot of people listen to the show know that we were big on the pursuit of being our best, 427 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,800 right? Not, not being better than others, not being perfect, but I want to be my best self, 428 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,040 right? That's what you're looking at. And these opportunities then become, they're not a form of 429 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:48,640 stress or anxiety. They're an opportunity to increase the value of what we got in life. So 430 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:55,920 I do love that you share that. Let's, let me take you down a theory. So we talked about being open 431 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:02,240 as executives and leaders and creating a culture. I've got behind me that Patrick Mancioni's five 432 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:08,960 best functions of a team poster, huge fan of the idea of let's create trust. Let's engage in healthy 433 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:15,280 conflict, right? Let's be vulnerable, all those aspects. But when I get a back channel message 434 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:22,000 from an executive who doesn't want to be called out or is worried about calling me out, right? 435 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,920 And they're kind of putting a restraint on, no, no, no, we don't, we don't want to do things that 436 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:32,560 way here. Or I don't feel comfortable if we talk about that in an open forum. How do you, 437 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:39,680 how do you approach that? How do you help somebody move towards a culture where it's okay to, 438 00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:47,360 again, not have to be right? Yeah. So, I mean, I think one is when you can operationalize feedback, 439 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,400 because a lot of people are, oh, we need to have feedback. It's just, all right, well, what we're 440 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:56,080 going to do is after this project ends, we're going to have a debrief and say the leader goes last. And 441 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,640 everyone has to say something affirming and something constructive. And you go around, 442 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,160 and I actually like it when the person with the least power in the room, that in turn, the most 443 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:10,640 junior person goes first, the contractor goes first. And then, and then also I like it if I 444 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,840 write it down and then read it out loud, because it keeps you more accountable to what you actually 445 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:21,120 said versus flexing to what other people say. So I think that's one thing. Something I actually 446 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,200 really learned recently, because sometimes I, you know, I work with government, which means I also 447 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:31,040 work with elected officials. And, and so there's a power dynamic there. And so I learned from 448 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,520 Port of Seattle Commissioner, Ryan Colkins, he shared, he actually gives feedback in private. 449 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,960 And the reason why is because sometimes if he gets it in public, it has this outsized perception, 450 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,520 you know, and so he realizes he has to, he has to give that constructive feedback privately, 451 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,680 because then it's so that there's not so much noise around it. So I do think it's important 452 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,440 that, I mean, it's a, it's a great learning opportunity to give it in a group setting. 453 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,440 And then there are some times where you, you give it privately because you don't want it to be 454 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:10,240 distracting. So again, it depends on the context. There's not a one size fits all rule. 455 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:15,360 I really liked that. And I can do better on my ability to harmonize. That's what I, what I hear. 456 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,560 My daughter's name is Harmony for a reason. It's a good constant reminder to, to aim for it. So 457 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:28,000 I've, I like that you also mentioned something I saw that Jeff Bezos does. And same thing. He has 458 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:35,200 the newest person in the, in the meeting, lead the meeting, you know, start first, and they go up 459 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:41,120 and start first and they go up in seniority from there, which allows leaders to listen more 460 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,800 and allows people to bring up thoughts and ideas that they wouldn't otherwise bring up 461 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:50,240 because they're intimidated by, they don't want to be wrong. And they, they want to just cater, 462 00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:54,480 Oh no, no, what Jeff said is perfect. Let's just go with what Jeff said. Right. And it's a great way 463 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,840 to, to get more people to contribute ideas that no, Jeff or Jackson or anybody else wouldn't 464 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:06,400 necessarily get if we had opened our big mouth first. So that's another very helpful reality. 465 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,840 I would love to know, I want to go into my favorite question actually, just cause I want 466 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,360 to make sure we don't rush it. Julie, if this was the last chance you had to speak in public, 467 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,040 what powerful lesson can other visionaries learn from your experience? 468 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:28,800 Hmm. It's to admit when practicing curiosity has been hard for us and to be very specific about it. 469 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,240 And so the example that I just shared, she's like, Oh, that's a very specific example. 470 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:41,360 Cause I think I hear people who are very vague. Oh, failure is good. Make mistakes. And I think 471 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:51,520 that that is, I have, I've gotten a lot of positive reactions when people are just, Oh, 472 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:56,960 thank you for being real. Thank you for being real. And I'll share another thing is sometimes 473 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,680 you just got to share what you think is important. You don't, cause I think, especially when we think 474 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,640 about marketing, Oh, is this going to hit if I say this word or if I do this, I'll share. Recently, 475 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:13,520 I wrote this post about, about sobriety and because I just celebrated one year of dessert sobriety, 476 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:20,080 I am pre-diabetic and I was just, you know what? I, I cold Turkey. It was just, and every month 477 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:25,440 I celebrated that sobriety birthday. And I didn't know if people would think, Oh sugar. 478 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:30,000 Or they just like, that's what you're talking about Jackson. And I was just, I'm going to write 479 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,320 it because I feel this. I'm proud. I just came completed 12 months. I didn't think I could do 480 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:41,120 this. The responses to that people privately messaged me and told me about their own sobriety, 481 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,400 some people publicly. And, and so I think that you've got to just go, sometimes trust your 482 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,680 instincts and say it like, this is what I want to share. I don't know what people are going to think 483 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:58,720 about it, but I feel like this is a message I have to share. That's powerful. It's powerful. 484 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:04,320 It can lead to some painful outcomes as well. Right. That's part of life, right. As part of growth, 485 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:11,280 you know, as I think about the seed that has to break, right. In order for it to open and sprout 486 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,360 and it has to go through that dark environment. And then it comes out and there's storms and all 487 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,880 sorts of stuff. Like we're not going to escape the pains that, that can exist. I do want to highlight 488 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:26,560 those realities. So maybe it will help some of you prepare for it. When I was first doing like my 489 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:32,480 podcasting stuff way back in the day, going live on Facebook, a friend at the time said, 490 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:38,880 what are you going to stop with all this washed up discount Tony Robbins bull crap? And I was like, 491 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:45,120 I was my first public comment from somebody. And so it ended up, I felt isolated too. It's like, 492 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:53,200 oh, where is everybody? And then I also got messages privately from people, not because of that, 493 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,840 and independent of that, that were like, Hey, I love what you post. I'm sorry. I never reach out. 494 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,040 It's been a long time. Like you've been a huge inspiration to me that were like, Whoa, like I 495 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:08,560 made a difference in somebody's life. You never know who's going to appreciate what you're doing, 496 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:14,320 but that's why I appreciate what Julie said. It's your instinct, right? Follow what, what you're 497 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:21,280 called to do and trust that as much negativity as may come your way. If you did what you know was 498 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:28,400 best, that is going to have a brilliant and great effect for you and your life, no matter what 499 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,440 negativity comes your way. So thank you for, thank you for encouraging people to do that. 500 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,240 Can I share one more? Of course, especially because you're a marketing expert. I think you'll 501 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:45,920 really appreciate this vanity metrics. I've had to let go of vanity metrics before it's just, oh, 502 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,840 how many legs? Oh, what about this? And it's just, and what I realized is, 503 00:40:49,840 --> 00:41:00,000 you know, I mean, my, the, there are people who care about what I do and they show up and maybe 504 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:08,160 they didn't share on social media, but then they tell me later on, Julie, I mean, I didn't react, 505 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:14,080 but I sent it to 20 people and I've been talking about it. And, and so I think that's something to 506 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,760 really separate something I've had to let go of, especially as an entrepreneur. I mean, I think 507 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:32,160 there's a lot of things that we can't see. I mean, I'll go back to the, I can't measure the amount 508 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,440 of blood that pumps through my heart, but I'm pretty sure it's important. I'm just going to leave 509 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,320 that to where it's at. Go ahead. And you know, even like my TEDx talk doesn't have that many 510 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:48,480 views, but you know what? I had 30 people who paid quite a bit of money on a Thursday afternoon, 511 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,920 taking time off work, fighting traffic to attend in person. I've seen many people who are like, 512 00:41:53,920 --> 00:42:01,200 I'm going to give my time and give you feedback that to me, I was like, wow, people care. So I 513 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:09,760 think those are the things that we just have to remember vanity metrics. That's, and then what 514 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:15,760 actually matters is it what actually matters? I think is a big key on that. Um, for, for all 515 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:22,560 you listeners, that's what I hope you catch about this is the metrics matter. And there's a context 516 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,880 for where they matter and how they matter and why. Right. And if I look above my head right here, 517 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:32,160 there's a, there's an eyeball and that eyeball shows a giant zero next to it. Um, which means 518 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:38,160 that so theoretically nobody's listening and nobody is here. Um, right. And I have seen that 519 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:44,880 proven wrong over and over and over based on what happens both live and what happens in the world. 520 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:51,360 I mean, we're in the top 5% of podcasts globally now. Um, and again, vanity metric, right? Does 521 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:58,080 that mean anything to anybody? Maybe, but not it's important. I'm grateful for it, but what I'm most 522 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,880 grateful for is I'm going to get up. I'm going to do the work. I'm going to show up for the people 523 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:08,640 who I show up for. I'm going to give my absolute best. And the by-product of doing that is already 524 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:15,280 guaranteed. Why? Because I trust in the law of principles. I trust in the law of attraction. 525 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,600 I trust in the law of the harvest. I know the great things come from it. It's what most of the 526 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,080 greatest leaders in this world talk about. And so that's what we stick to. So these are super 527 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:31,120 powerful lessons. And, um, I want to circle back again to what you said about curiosity and how, 528 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:38,240 um, you said admit when curiosity has been hard for us and to be specific about it. Um, 529 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:44,640 what a great framework as, as leaders, like to be able to open up a safe space for people to then 530 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:53,040 dive deeper into curiosity. Um, it's just brilliant. You shared so much brilliant wisdom today, 531 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:58,720 Julie, that I'm going to, like, I'm almost not podcasting today. I'm almost just like eating 532 00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:04,000 this up as a personal coaching session. Um, and so those of you listening, I hope you're getting the 533 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:09,520 same thing out of this in the show notes, of course, below the, the episode, we'll have action steps 534 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,840 so you can get in contact with Julie. You can find out about her book. We'll have the Ted talk on 535 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:19,680 there too. So you can go watch that. Maybe you're one of the lucky out of the 2000, right? Or the 536 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:26,320 20,000 beyond that that aren't counted. The, the key that I've found with Dr. Julie today is that 537 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:32,560 she's going to show up and give her maximum value. And we live in a world where curiosity is 538 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,040 suffocating, um, you know, where people aren't able to dive into it, where they don't appreciate it, 539 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:43,440 where they see it as something that's weird or strange rather than individualized appreciation 540 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,560 for maximizing what's possible in life. So Julie, thank you for everything that you're doing, 541 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,880 everything that you gave us today. I am going to be an avid follower of what you're up to. Any 542 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,560 final thoughts you want to share with the audience? Jackson, I just really appreciate what you're 543 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:03,120 doing and thank you so much for, for creating the space for people to learn. Absolutely. Vision 544 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,200 pros. If you've got thoughts and curiosity, send them our way. We're, we're eager students 545 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,240 of the process as well. If you have a company that's looking to incorporate, um, results, 546 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:15,040 by the way, if you have a company that's looking to incorporate results, 547 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,160 one of the greatest ways to do that in my opinion is exploring curiosity with Julie. You probably 548 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:26,240 already have all of the answers within you for what needs to be done, but what you need are people 549 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:31,280 who can help you get back to centered on exploring those. And I can see that Julie's very good at 550 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,000 that. She already did that for me in big ways in this lesson, in this, in this, uh, episode in ways 551 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,800 that you guys won't even know about, but my team will very soon. We're going to have some very 552 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,960 fun talks about this vision pros have a fantastic rest of your day and we'll see on the next episode. 553 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,800 Thank you for being here today. I'm really happy that you tuned into vision pros live. 554 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,840 I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes continue to move forward. This is 555 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:58,000 going to get more and more fun. We'll have more and more engagement as well. We'll invite people 556 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,800 to participate in the show and thank you for giving us your time and attention. Have an excellent 557 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:30,800 time building out your vision.