1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000 Tell me about your vision. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:10,000 My vision is helping organizations to become more neuro-inclusive, 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:19,000 because right now it appears that there's fairness or maybe even merit in the workplaces. 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:26,000 But in fact, organizations cannot be considered inclusive. 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:34,000 And if you look at practices that we use, let's say, for selection or for promotion, 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:40,000 they result in the fact that 85% of autistic people with college degrees 7 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:46,000 and all kinds of talents end up being unemployed or under-employed. 8 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:55,000 But 42-30% of all neurodivergent people end up being unemployed, unemployed or under-employed. 9 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:02,000 And that's despite the fact that actually research shows that bringing in neurodivergent people 10 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:09,000 improves productivity and creativity in the workplace tremendously. 11 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:20,000 Research by J.P. Morgan has shown that autistic people and their employment are 140% more productive. 12 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:28,000 So think about the paradox. People who are 140% more productive when they're in the right job 13 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:36,000 are excluded from the workplace to the point of 85%. 14 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,000 It doesn't compute, it doesn't make sense. 15 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:47,000 It's slightly better in some countries, so Germany and Australia have slightly less appalling numbers, 16 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:57,000 but they are still not anywhere at the point of parity with other people. 17 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:07,000 So there's something going on in organizations that we need to fix so that all kinds of talent would be able to thrive. 18 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:13,000 That's amazing. There's a lot I grasped from what you mentioned, 19 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,000 but I have a few follow-up questions on this aspect. 20 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,000 First, I would love to see those studies. 21 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:28,000 I think that would be amazing to actually see all those things and see what you're stating, 22 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,000 what people have to say about that. I think that would be awesome. 23 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:44,000 The second thing, why is this vision, why do you care about this particular vision in your life? 24 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,000 What is your vibe of getting out of bed every morning and talking to people about this? 25 00:02:49,000 --> 00:03:00,000 I've been getting out of the bed in the morning for decades with the passion of creating organizations that are intersectionally inclusive. 26 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:10,000 I started working in global diversity and intercultural relations, big-level cultures, multinational organizations, basically while I was in college. 27 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:15,000 It was fantastic. I loved my job. 28 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:24,000 I worked with all the different cultures and it was so much fun because we had all the different languages and different foods. 29 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:38,000 Then I encountered a huge gender discrimination in the same organization that was super inclusive on the level of cultural differences, 30 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,000 but they did not consider gender. 31 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:50,000 If you look at other organizations, they consider gender but no race, race but no disability, but not all the other human differences. 32 00:03:50,000 --> 00:04:00,000 I wanted to figure out how to create organizations that are fully inclusive of everything that makes up a human. 33 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Then when I got a doctorate in industrial organizational psychology, trying to figure out how to do it, 34 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:18,000 there was just more and more research that showed all kinds of discrimination in the workplace. 35 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:26,000 I looked at all kinds of disparities and issues throughout my career. 36 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:31,000 Then I started looking at psychological level differences. 37 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Why do we have those dramatic differences in specifically neurodiversity inclusion, which are much more dramatic than for any other group? 38 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000 Nobody else is excluded to the extent of 85%. 39 00:04:49,000 --> 00:05:01,000 When I started looking into it, what I realized was that neurodiversity, the psychological level diversity, 40 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:08,000 how you react to the physical environment, how people perceive your communication and respond to you, 41 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:16,000 really reflects bias on the very psychological level, 42 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:22,000 that let's say the same bias that we don't like people who communicate differently from us, 43 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:30,000 would apply to let's say autistic people, it would apply to language discrimination and accent discrimination, 44 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:38,000 it would apply to regional accents within the country, for example, those that indicated someone grew up in poverty, 45 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,000 are also going to be hit by those differences in communication. 46 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:51,000 So when you start looking at the level of why people discriminate against those who communicate differently, 47 00:05:51,000 --> 00:06:01,000 or why don't we give opportunities to people who communicate in ways that we're not used to, 48 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:18,000 or why is it that so much hinges on the interview, even though the interview very often has absolutely no bearing on how a person can cook the food or keep the books. 49 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:24,000 It doesn't make sense. We use tools for selection that are basically not valid. 50 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:33,000 Just give people work tests and work samples, and all those people that are discriminated against in the interview 51 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:39,000 because of differences in communication that have nothing to do with their actual ability to do the job, 52 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,000 are going to have a much better chance. 53 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:52,000 So that is just one example that shows that the psychological level differences in how we perceive someone and how we respond to them, 54 00:06:52,000 --> 00:07:07,000 overlapping with outdated organizational practices that are not valid, are a huge part in this disparity in neurodivergent hiring, 55 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:14,000 but they're also a huge part of all the other kinds of discrimination that occur in the workplace. 56 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:26,000 So to me, inclusion based on those psychological level differences is the key to creating organizations that are much more inclusive in general, 57 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,000 which is why my approach is called the Canary Code. 58 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:35,000 Canaries were used in coal mines to detect toxic air through 1980s. 59 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:44,000 It's not a folk tale. In the UK, every coal mine was required to employ two canaries through 1980s, 60 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:51,000 and they were actually well taken care of. They even had little canary resuscitation devices with oxygen tanks. 61 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,000 So they were not killing canaries randomly, but they would take them down to the mineshaft, 62 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:07,000 and if the canary is showing the signs of distress, it means that after a while, miners will also be impacted. 63 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:24,000 But because canaries are able to fly, sing, and do the bird things by design, they're more sensitive to toxins in the air because they metabolize air more intensely. 64 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:38,000 They process oxygen both on inhale and exhale. So it's more intense, which is why they're going to be impacted by toxins first. 65 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:45,000 So that just shows that if you create air that's healthy for canary, it's going to be healthy for everyone. 66 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:55,000 Well, it's actually not that dissimilar from autistic people. Autistic brain processes 40% more information than the average brain. 67 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:06,000 So if there is noise, there is bullying, there is stressful work environment, the autistic people are going to be impacted first. 68 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:21,000 If you create a work environment that is inclusive and productive for autistic people, everyone is going to benefit because, again, 69 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:30,000 autistic people metabolize stress and human interaction as intensely as canaries process air. 70 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:37,000 So, again, the idea is to create inclusive organizations for everyone. 71 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:44,000 So neurodiversity is just one way of looking at it because neurodivergent people are canaries. 72 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:54,000 And then let's say it's not just autistic people, I'm just using that example, but let's say people with ADHD very often are more sensitive to their environment. 73 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:06,000 Both autistic people and ADHDers, I use identity first language as preferred by the community, they're both more sensitive to injustice in the workplace. 74 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:12,000 So when there's injustice, they are going to be reacting as that toxicity alarm. 75 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:20,000 And then what happens, they usually end up being driven out of the workplace instead of fixing the toxicity, which then eventually gets to everyone. 76 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:30,000 So when we create workplaces that are supportive and inclusive for neurodivergent people, everyone is going to be healthier and less stressed. 77 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,000 There's a lot you share in this. 78 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000 And from what I see from now on, we'll have to depend on our views. 79 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,000 I think our views don't or do align, and I don't know where it's at yet. 80 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:51,000 When it comes to inclusion and diversity, I have different views, not that we should include or not include people. 81 00:10:51,000 --> 00:11:01,000 I believe that when it comes to giving someone a job or employing someone should be done on merit if they're able to do their job or not. 82 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 Which is exactly what I'm talking about. 83 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:09,000 Exactly. So that's what I want to get on to because I didn't know which way you were leaning to. 84 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:16,000 When it comes to inclusion, I don't and I'm I'm I'm from India, born and raised. 85 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:23,000 So it's not like I haven't seen racism at all or anything of diversity stuff. 86 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:35,000 Like, it's not that. But I believe in my heart that if there is someone else of a different race, white, black, brown, whatever, and they have more merit than me. 87 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,000 And me and him are applying for a job or her are applying for a job. 88 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:48,000 I believe if someone else is more merit than me, they should get that job despite of my circumstances. 89 00:11:48,000 --> 00:12:02,000 That's what I believe. And if that is not what you believe, then what I talk to you about from this point on was to be a different conversation than what we have been right now. 90 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:08,000 But I think I'm getting the sense that you believe the same things that. 91 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:15,000 And cared for on their merits and not of their circumstances. 92 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:22,000 The community is not based on any kind of preferential treatment for any kind of group. 93 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:34,000 It's actually based on six principles like flexibility, measuring work based on outcomes, input, organizational justice. 94 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,000 And the last one is valid measurements. 95 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,000 So that's why I brought up hiring and interviews. 96 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:49,000 We are not actually hiring on merit because we're not using good measurement. 97 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:54,000 So right now we rely on interviews very heavily. 98 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:05,000 In fact, most people don't know the difference between interview and hiring process, even though hiring process is a much broader thing than the interview. 99 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,000 So we could do skill tests. 100 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:19,000 We can do job trials and those things are much more accurate at predicting someone's ability to do the job. 101 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:25,000 So actually it is hiring on merit, which is currently not happening. 102 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:33,000 What is happening now is hiring on, oh yeah, my cousin went to the same school as you or I like your face. 103 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:40,000 It's not the actual merit that much of the current measurement taps into. 104 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:49,000 So that actually is something that is fully compatible with merit. 105 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:58,000 Because I'm not suggesting hiring autistic people just because they're autistic people for jobs they're not qualified for or ADHDers. 106 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:09,000 I'm suggesting measure accurately and if you do that you're going to end up with more diversity 107 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:20,000 because you will remove similar to me bias from hiring because right now we very often confuse merit 108 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:27,000 and we just like someone's face and we just like that they're from the same town as me or they have the same accent. 109 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:33,000 So I think fixing those obstacles is very important. 110 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:42,000 Another way I talk about it is I don't like DI that is ladder. 111 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,000 So right now people face obstacles in the workplace. 112 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,000 Let's say there is disparity in promotion for different groups. 113 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:57,000 There is a line of thought that thinks we just need to bring ladders over those barriers for certain groups of people. 114 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,000 So let's bring a ladder for women because there's a barrier to promotion. 115 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Oh my gosh, and then we need to build a ramp for people with various kinds of disabilities. 116 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,000 That doesn't make sense. Why is the barrier there to begin with? 117 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:19,000 So if there is unfairness, let's say, in how the promotion system works, 118 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:31,000 then we need to make sure that the promotion system is actually based on performance, knowledge, ability to learn, attitude, 119 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:36,000 all those things that are supposed to be considered merit. 120 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:47,000 But again, very often it's like they look, for example, in women's appearance or disabled people can never be leaders because whatever. 121 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,000 People think about them. 122 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:57,000 So to me it's about removing barriers rather than bringing in a bunch of ladders. 123 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:03,000 But right now many of our organizations are filled with those barriers that are again unfair 124 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:11,000 and have nothing to do with the actual productivity and ability to do the work. 125 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:17,000 That's a great point. That goes directly to my next question for you, and I want to dive deeper into that. 126 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,000 That will be the last question for today, Ludmila. 127 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:35,000 So according to you, what do you hope to achieve at what level in the amount of change you're looking to see in the world 128 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:41,000 when it comes to applying the principles that you shared with me in real world? 129 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:48,000 What is your goal for being on the show and what you see, hope to achieve that could happen in the future? 130 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:57,000 I want people to be able to use their talents to the maximum because the more people are using their talents to the maximum, 131 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,000 the more society is going to thrive. 132 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:07,000 Sometimes people think about it as, okay, so those people are going to thrive, then I won't. 133 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:13,000 But if you have a society that has more to go around, the bigger pie society, 134 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,000 then everyone is able to bring in their talents and their productivity. 135 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:32,000 So I want to change this kind of zero-sum mentality that some people's success always comes at the expense of other people's success 136 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:40,000 and give everyone opportunities to do the job that is the best for them, not for someone else, 137 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:48,000 but that aligns with their strengths and with their abilities because that will enhance the society 138 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:57,000 and that will eventually create more thriving and more opportunities to go around. 139 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:06,000 So here's the conundrum on that. There's obviously levels that this can be applied to. 140 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:15,000 For example, a small business owner who has to think about bringing in money for the next month 141 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:22,000 or retaining some customers so they can achieve better or provide for their family is not thinking about all these things. 142 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,000 If you go on a higher level with companies who have been sustained for five to ten years, 143 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:39,000 who have a few sustained clients and they're bringing X amount of revenue to sustain let's say five, ten, fifteen, twenty employees on a regular basis, 144 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:48,000 they may have the resources, time and energy, and the right leadership, which is very more important in this case scenario, 145 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:55,000 to include these aspects and this way of thinking into their processes. 146 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:02,000 So at what level do you see the change or where do you see it starting? Do you see it from top to bottom, bottom to top? 147 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,000 What do you hope? 148 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,000 Do small businesses need talent? 149 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,000 Yes, they do. 150 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:22,000 The whole point is talent. I'm not trying to tell a small business owner that their only first employee must be from the group X. 151 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:30,000 The business owner should hire the best person for their job, whether it's a small business or the large business. 152 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,000 And again, I'm not talking about just bringing in people just because. 153 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:44,000 I'm talking about bringing someone who is best for that job, who is going to deliver outstanding performance. 154 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:57,000 And that very well might be a neurodivergent person that will go into hyper focus and do ten days worth of work in one night. 155 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:10,000 Because that's what neurodivergent people do. So don't confuse neurodivergent people with substandard hiring or any kind of diversity with substandard hiring. 156 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:19,000 I'm talking about bringing in the best person for the job and just not discriminating because sometimes people think, OK, the woman has got three kids. 157 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:29,000 She's not going to invest. The woman can be the most efficient person because she knows she needs to feed three kids and doesn't have a ton of time to be online and play games. 158 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:41,000 So she's going to put in the utmost effort in whatever time she has. And that small business will actually benefit much more than if they decided, oh, no, this woman with three kids. 159 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:48,000 So let's go with someone else. So just look at actual productivity. I don't think it has anything to do with the size of company. 160 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:57,000 If you look at many entrepreneurs who are successful, they are people who have been discriminated against in the workplace. 161 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:10,000 And then they started their companies because their talent deserved more than what companies were giving them consideration for because of various biases. 162 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Even Elon Musk had difficulty getting hiring, getting hired. People didn't want to hire him. There's YouTube videos where he talks about it. 163 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:27,000 They don't want him because he didn't communicate in the way like all those extroverted business people do. 164 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:35,000 So you don't want to have people who are different from you. OK, you push them into entrepreneurship. 165 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:43,000 And though actually a lot of entrepreneurs are neurodivergent. Thank you for being here today. I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live. 166 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:50,000 I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions as these episodes continue to move forward. This is going to get more and more fun. 167 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,000 We'll have more and more engagement as well. We'll invite people to participate in the show. 168 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:14,000 And thank you for giving us your time and attention. Have an excellent time building out your vision and becoming a Vision Pro yourself.