How did you get started on that path?
You're the owner of agency agile, correct?
And you have a couple of,
what was it, Inc. companies that you've been a part of
or ran and what led to this book?
So I, just a real quick sort of genealogy of that
is I started out as a software developer originally
and I hated my managers.
I thought they didn't know shit about what was going on
and strangely I got promoted into management.
I don't know what it was.
Maybe they got tired of hearing me whine about stuff.
And I ended up being a project and program manager
for a lot of my career.
We started Inc. five, we started consultancy,
management consultancy.
We won the Inc. 500 award a couple of times
for rapid growth is what that award's for.
Nice.
At some point along that path, I started saying,
we just gotta know how to do this better.
And in the book I tell, and when we do the actual podcasts,
I'll tell the more detailed story of it.
But basically I had a wake up moment when I thought,
what if we just take all the managers out of the room?
What would happen?
What if we send the managers home for a day?
Does more productivity get done or not?
It turns out it does.
The more productivity does happen
when we have less managing and especially
the more complex our environment,
the more complex the work that we're doing,
the more managers they are, the more it's true.
And so ironically, very little managing is far superior
to a lot of managing.
And so that started a career for me.
200 plus organizations, we've taught these concepts too.
And a lot of them, not all of them,
but a lot of them have mastered them,
have done a great job and have happy people
and highly productive organizations.