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How did you get started on that path?

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You're the owner of agency agile, correct?

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And you have a couple of,

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what was it, Inc. companies that you've been a part of

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or ran and what led to this book?

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So I, just a real quick sort of genealogy of that

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is I started out as a software developer originally

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and I hated my managers.

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I thought they didn't know shit about what was going on

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and strangely I got promoted into management.

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I don't know what it was.

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Maybe they got tired of hearing me whine about stuff.

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And I ended up being a project and program manager

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for a lot of my career.

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We started Inc. five, we started consultancy,

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management consultancy.

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We won the Inc. 500 award a couple of times

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for rapid growth is what that award's for.

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Nice.

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At some point along that path, I started saying,

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we just gotta know how to do this better.

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And in the book I tell, and when we do the actual podcasts,

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I'll tell the more detailed story of it.

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But basically I had a wake up moment when I thought,

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what if we just take all the managers out of the room?

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What would happen?

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What if we send the managers home for a day?

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Does more productivity get done or not?

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It turns out it does.

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The more productivity does happen

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when we have less managing and especially

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the more complex our environment,

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the more complex the work that we're doing,

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the more managers they are, the more it's true.

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And so ironically, very little managing is far superior

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to a lot of managing.

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And so that started a career for me.

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200 plus organizations, we've taught these concepts too.

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And a lot of them, not all of them,

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but a lot of them have mastered them,

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have done a great job and have happy people

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and highly productive organizations.