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management consultants who won the Inc 500 award a couple times for rapid growth. That awards for

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nice at some point along that path. I started saying, we just kind of know how to do this

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better. And in the book, I tell and when we do the pod, the actual podcasts, I'll tell the more

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detailed story of it. But basically, I had a wake up moment when I thought, what if we just take all

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the managers out of the room, what would happen? What if we send the managers home for a day? Does

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more productivity get done or not? It turns out it does. The more productivity does happen when we

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have less managing and especially the more complex our environment, the more complex the work that

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we're doing, the more managers they are, the more it's true. And so ironically, very little managing

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is far superior to a lot of managing. And so that started a career for me 200 plus.