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I think that's going to happen soon.

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He is he is on point, man.

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I've been so happy to work with him.

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It's been I've been looking for him for a very long time.

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Is he part of your team?

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He's the CEO of Media Productions now.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, so he's he's actually been groomed

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to be CEO of the company and he's he's flying forward.

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Like, OK, cool.

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This is this is looking good.

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So it's been a huge breath of fresh air.

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More than that, it seems like a magic carpet.

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So there's that.

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It's very yeah.

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All right, Dave, I saw like, I don't know, 39 experiences

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on your LinkedIn.

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You have a lot of depth of companies

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that you worked with favorite three

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or favorite three from the past.

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Favorite three companies, man.

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Good question.

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I would say within my fractional CRO experience,

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there's been a few companies that I've just just really

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kind of fallen in love with.

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One of them is a group called Image Seller.

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They're.

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And selling.

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Yes, image.

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Yeah, I'm counting.

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I'm just counting.

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Oh, OK, OK.

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Got it.

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I'll give you the three.

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Image Seller, a group called Glacier Clinics.

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And then most recently, I've loved

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the group over at Castle Rock Microwave.

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Nice.

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Castle Rock or Microwave?

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Yes, yep.

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OK, and favorite three outside of the CRO spectrum then.

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Maybe going way back.

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Yeah, you know, early in my career,

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I started with Whirlpool fresh out of undergrad.

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And I had just some amazing experiences.

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I was part of one of their leadership development

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rotation rotational programs.

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So I got to work in different areas of the company.

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They did a lot of just growth and development

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there that I took forward with me.

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So that was a favorite.

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And I would say I spent a few years in the beverage alcohol

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space, actually, post-grad school,

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and worked for a distributorship.

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And yeah, exactly, a brewery.

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And hard to scale a kind of a living there,

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but it was a ton of fun.

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You got a third?

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A third would probably be.

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Thank you for being here today.

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I'm really happy that you're here.

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All right, welcome in to Vision Pros Live with Jackson Calame.

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I'm your show host.

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We'll be doing interviews for visionary entrepreneurs

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and guest leaders who are building

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fantastic visions out there.

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Hey, what's up?

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And welcome into Vision Pros Live.

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I'm your host, Jackson Calame, founder and CEO

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of First Class Business.

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I'm trying not to be insecure about losing my voice right

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now.

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My voice is gone.

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My heart is not.

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It is here and present with you.

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My brain is not.

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Well, some people would debate that.

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But I got Dave Vanderjat here.

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Vanderjat, and he is a CRO expert.

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And he works with complicated companies, medical device

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companies, companies in supply chain.

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He obviously also can work with the simpler solutions that

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are out there as well.

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But I really like diving in with people

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who have that kind of depth and understanding,

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because there's usually just a whole lot more

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that you can learn from somebody who

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has those types of experiences.

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So we had an excellent pre-show.

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He got to meet Chris Chambers on Chris Chambers' first day

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as well.

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And they had a great banter together.

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I was like, great.

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This is going to be fun.

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We'll get Dave on the power take as well.

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So we have a lot to dive into.

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But oh, yeah, being a podcaster and having a bronchitis

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and whatever else I got, that's just

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not a good combination.

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So anyway, moving into what we can do to help you guys

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in the meantime.

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Now, besides Dave coming on board,

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we always want to mention these types of sponsors and tools,

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these opportunities up here.

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ColdClick, that's what we use for our LinkedIn automation.

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And one of the reasons why I keep ColdClick up there

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constantly is because so many entrepreneurs, so many business

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owners, so many salespeople.

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By the way, if you're a salesperson

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and you actually are doing well, you're

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making more than $10,000 a month,

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here's my greatest trick and secret to you.

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Stop being an employee mindset.

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Get your own LinkedIn automation.

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Don't go beg your boss for it.

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I almost did that when I first started with automation.

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And it wasn't even automation.

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I hired a VA.

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And I was going to go to my boss and ask for $3.33 an hour

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to hire somebody.

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I felt so bitten.

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And I was like, you know what?

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I can just do this myself.

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I felt like such a big man for going and hiring somebody

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for less than $4 an hour to fill my appointments up

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by contacting people on LinkedIn.

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And it was one of my first big entrepreneur steps, so to speak.

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So if you're just starting out and you're like, man,

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I don't know if I'm good out for this stuff.

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Just know that a lot of us had to take very small steps

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initially in order to get rolling with the systems

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and tools that we have.

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The nice thing about ColdClick is

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it automates the whole process.

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And then you don't also have to worry about somebody

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hijacking your account, which I've

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seen happen with people.

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If your LinkedIn account gets hijacked,

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here's my advice for you.

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Who cares?

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Just start over.

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It's just an account.

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Whatever followership you had probably

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wasn't driving that much revenue to begin with anyway.

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Just start over.

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Always keep yourself running.

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Pick yourself up.

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Bounce back.

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There's good songs about that, right?

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Simply fast websites.

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If you are starting from scratch,

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I just wish I had found this when I was starting from scratch.

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We've never used it.

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Never heard of somebody using it.

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Shane became a friend of mine.

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I thought it was cool, these offering websites,

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starting at $179.

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I spent so much time and money on my first website iterations

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for like the 10 different websites

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that we launched at different companies

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as the years have gone by.

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Now, I learned a lot of lessons along the way doing that.

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I learned a lot of great things about building.

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But the most important lesson I learned was busy is broke.

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If you're busy building your website,

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you're not busy talking to your prospects

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and moving into productive, profitable relationships.

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So one of the best things you can do

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is get a raw and maybe even unfinished website.

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I don't think Shane would leave it like that.

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I think he would very much polish it for you,

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help you have a professional front.

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But just know it's not going to be exactly what you want.

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That doesn't matter in the beginning.

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You need the proof of concept because you're

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going to go talk to the market.

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And if you're a great leader, you're going to listen.

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And what that market is going to ask you to do

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is make pivots and adjustments and changes

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so that you can serve your ideal clients as well as possible,

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which means you'll then have to go back and update

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your website anyway.

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So it's better not to overthink that.

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Get moving and launch.

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Do your research and development.

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Or as one of my friends, Howie, likes to say,

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R&D, your ripoff and duplicate by watching and seeing

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what your competitors are doing out there.

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And go provide massive value to those that you want to serve.

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Lastly, I'm going to take advantage of this right now,

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the water project.

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The water project is I'm just never going

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to not talk about this, guys.

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We have people, millions of people

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in the world who do not have access to clean drinking water.

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Today, I feel a strong empathy for those

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who are in a sick condition like myself

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and don't have access to that.

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I imagine some of them have to go walk for a couple

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of miles to go get their own water.

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What a miserable, difficult experience that would be.

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And it's one that we can do something about.

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Whether we give $5, $50,000 to this project

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or we just share this with others,

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you never know who you might touch

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and who might be able to provide water to these communities.

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You're making a generational impact in the process.

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I absolutely love what they do.

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I love that they show you exactly where the money goes

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as well and the impact that you get to have on the communities.

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That's pretty outstanding.

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So without further ado, I'm going

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to bring Dave Vanderjat on board.

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We're going to be talking about his LinkedIn a little bit,

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his background, and where he comes from.

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I was called out the other day, and I'm fine by it.

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Somebody called me out and said, Jackson,

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you could tell that you hadn't read

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through this person's LinkedIn profile

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before you brought them up.

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And I thanked the guy for his feedback, and I kept going.

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No, I definitely had read through it.

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The difference between reading through somebody's profile,

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though, and recognizing in a modern world

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who's a pretender versus who's a contender is very difficult.

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And there's so much information available online now

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about people that it's important that we take a deeper dive in.

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I like to see how do people's eyes and smiles or reactions

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or stories kind of add up from their own perspective,

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not just what I read in their absolute best publication

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or in how they represent themselves online.

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So with that, I'm going to bring Dave on.

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And Dave, I'm so excited to have you on the show.

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Thanks for being here, man.

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Absolutely.

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Glad to be here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yes, sir.

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So for the sake of defining further for the audience,

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who should be listening?

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Obviously, the people who are looking to grow their revenues

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are going to benefit from this reverse engineering

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conversation.

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The people who are probably looking to cut costs,

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we talked about some of the disease that

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exists within entrepreneurship.

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But before we even go into that, I'm

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going to pull your LinkedIn one more time.

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And I'd love for you to just talk to us about some

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of that background and depth that you have.

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Is that OK?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Where would you like me to start?

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Well, I would like to get your LinkedIn profile pulled up.

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There we go.

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Sorry about that.

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All right.

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Fractional Chief Revenue Officer, you're

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helping people scale with revenue audits, gap analysis,

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go to market strategy, implementation, marketing,

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sales, and customer success leadership.

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So you can start with those concepts.

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Or as I scroll past these experiences,

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feel free to just say, hey, Jackson, stop on that one.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So my background, a little bit going back

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to the very beginning.

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So you'll probably have to keep scrolling a bit

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and maybe click there.

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Post undergrad, I started my career with Whirlpool.

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So Fortune 150 company, 100-year-old manufacturing

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group.

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And I was fortunate because I had several.

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They put me in a rotational development program

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where I moved around to different parts of the company.

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And so I spent time in our operations group

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within our aftermarket sales and parts and accessories process.

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In other words, all the parts and things like consumables

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that you would need with your refrigeration products

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as an example.

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And then I moved into product development and marketing

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and then spent some time in the customer success and service

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side of things.

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So I like to say that I got to see

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most aspects of the value chain of a $22, $23 billion

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company at the time.

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One of the great things, though, that I took forward and I found

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later was ingrained in my DNA is I

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spent a lot of time going through black belt, lean

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process improvement, six sigma type work.

291
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And what I found is I had a little bit of a career shift

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later where I decided nothing wrong with going to the legacy

293
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company that's been around for a while.

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But for me personally, I felt a little bit like a cog in a wheel

295
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and didn't see that I was having a lot of impact.

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And impact for me especially early in my career

297
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and even today was really important to me.

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So I shifted gears.

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I went to go work in more earlier stage companies.

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And I started to take on a lot of sales roles.

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And I had some amazing successful sales roles.

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And then I had some very miserable,

303
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you could even call them maybe failures,

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or just was not able to crack the nut,

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was not able to see success.

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And because I always had a leg in marketing,

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00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,680
a leg in customer success, a leg in revenue operations,

308
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it started to drive me to think of why was I successful here

309
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and not successful there?

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I mean, I'm the same person, hopefully getting a little bit

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better as I go forward.

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But I can't explain why one company was successful

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and the other company I was not unable to find success.

314
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And so what that drove me to do is

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to start to do some of that reverse engineering.

316
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I wanted to find out what was it about this company

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and maybe the growth stage that they were at

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and maybe perhaps the product they sold

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or the market they served or how they served that market.

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And I started to try to look at these different attributes.

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And if you're familiar with running experiments,

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specifically things that you'd find in like lean process

323
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improvement, you start to put yourself

324
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in a place where you can sort of, again, digest

325
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and reverse engineer some of those processes

326
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and try to figure out what was it that worked here

327
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and what didn't work over here.

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And so what that eventually ended up

329
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,680
culminating in for me was a couple of years ago,

330
00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:00,680
I took on a fractional CRO role within a consulting group

331
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,020
and learned even more about just different frameworks

332
00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:09,840
and go to market and what this means

333
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,520
and serving this audience, especially in companies

334
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,000
that are not necessarily pre-product market fit.

335
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,320
So the post-product market fit, but pre-scale.

336
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,860
And so which turned out to be the exact type of company

337
00:13:22,860 --> 00:13:27,520
that I had been working in for about the last 12 to 14 years.

338
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,720
And so I started to kind of look at how can I go

339
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,960
into a company and have impact quickly

340
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from a leadership standpoint, if I'm wearing the CRO hat

341
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,880
to figure out what that, we talked about it earlier,

342
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,160
that disease, that issue is, why isn't this company able

343
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,360
to see that success or that growth path,

344
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,880
that revenue that they're striving for, right?

345
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,880
And so that kind of brought me around to, all right,

346
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,160
I need to figure it, break this all down.

347
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,920
And that's a lot of the work that I do today,

348
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,720
especially in the early stages of when I began working

349
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,880
with a client is to just dig into their market,

350
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,880
their customers, their internal processes, their team,

351
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,000
do they have the right butts in the right seats,

352
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,280
and just really turn over every stone

353
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:17,280
and just understand, is this the team, the process,

354
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,040
the technology, the go-to-market plan

355
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,760
that's going to allow success?

356
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,680
And it's hard, candidly, it's just hard, period.

357
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,280
We've talked about that before, just being a CRO is tough,

358
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,880
being a fractional CRO, where you need to come in

359
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,400
and have impact extremely quickly is perhaps even harder.

360
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,560
And your success is largely gonna be dependent

361
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,240
on finding some quick wins while you also work

362
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,160
on the long-term strategic objectives

363
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,740
or maybe getting things correctly structured

364
00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:49,640
so that this company has the ability to scale

365
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,920
and hopefully achieve their goals.

366
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,360
So that's a lot of the work that I do today.

367
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,880
I say a lot of times, for whatever reason,

368
00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,880
I haven't worked with a lot of companies

369
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:01,720
that are maybe on that hockey stick growth

370
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,040
or have found that growth path.

371
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,380
They typically come to me because they've been

372
00:15:06,380 --> 00:15:09,160
hitting their heads against a wall for so long

373
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,360
and just haven't been able to get the right people,

374
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,320
haven't been able to sustain revenue.

375
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,700
Maybe they have churn issues,

376
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:18,460
maybe they have process problems.

377
00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:21,880
Perhaps they just can't bring in enough funnel

378
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,880
and build enough pipeline to close.

379
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,840
But ultimately, the symptoms are not always the root cause

380
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,880
of what's making that happen.

381
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,980
And so that's a lot of what I look at as my job,

382
00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:37,160
is I need to uncover those things,

383
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,240
I need to root out what maybe some of those main issues are,

384
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,280
provide a path to address and fix those things,

385
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,000
and I build all of that into a go-to-market strategy.

386
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,120
And for my clients, if they decide they wanna work with me

387
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,080
going forward, then we would execute that, right?

388
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,560
And we would start to move extremely quickly.

389
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,520
And that's a little bit about the work that I do today.

390
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,220
Yeah, it's big.

391
00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:06,120
I'll diagnose the challenge behind that or why, too.

392
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,880
You don't find a lot of companies on the hockey stick curve.

393
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,200
96% of businesses fail within 10 years.

394
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,040
Right, 4% survive.

395
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,720
4% aren't successful, 4% survive.

396
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,800
And so if you've got 99% of the market that's surviving,

397
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,640
no, none of them are on that rocket ship accelerator.

398
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,680
And so we do spend a lot of time,

399
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:30,640
especially in the Sierra space,

400
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,280
you spend a lot of time as a fireman,

401
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,960
or as a doctor, trying to help business owners

402
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,120
go through different forms of long-term therapies

403
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,720
to correct problems that have been growing

404
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,040
for multiple years.

405
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,960
So I'm always like, oh, let's just remove this

406
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,160
and everybody's happy.

407
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,680
Splinter and the lion and the mouse book, right?

408
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,400
Not always that simple.

409
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,800
Absolutely.

410
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,480
So what's your vision for those that you serve?

411
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,200
My vision is that they're set up from a go-to-market,

412
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,280
people, process, technology standpoint

413
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,100
across their marketing, sales, customer success,

414
00:17:06,100 --> 00:17:07,640
and rev ops functions,

415
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,800
that they have, I'll call it their best chance.

416
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,400
I've enabled success and I've enabled scale.

417
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,440
I've sort of tied the, or connected the dots

418
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,640
between where they're at today and the struggles they have

419
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,240
and what the goals are of the founder team

420
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,240
and what they're looking to accomplish.

421
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,400
As you can imagine, a lot of times,

422
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,600
these are the five to 10 year plus,

423
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,040
overnight success stories

424
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,160
that haven't become a success story yet,

425
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,760
but the founding team's been grinding away.

426
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,120
For me personally too, just for a little extra color,

427
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:44,240
most of the clients or companies that I've worked with

428
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,880
are bootstrapped, they're not funded.

429
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,200
So they don't have a lot of cash just laying around

430
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,520
that they can throw at problems

431
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,280
and just see if they can figure it out or fix it.

432
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,200
Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit,

433
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,640
but there's just a, you know, cash is-

434
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,800
A lot of these C companies can throw money around.

435
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,680
You got beer pong as like a dedicated Thursday,

436
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,560
you know, culture activity.

437
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:07,920
You have money to throw around.

438
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,720
I'll throw right back at them.

439
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,960
Yep, yeah, most of my companies that I've worked in

440
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,360
and worked for have, yeah, they've been bootstrapped.

441
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:18,560
You know, cash is always tight.

442
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,800
For those reasons, I love what Sam Jacobs with Pavilion says

443
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,400
when he talks about the CRO

444
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,640
and their main responsibility is to be a steward of capital.

445
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,520
And I think that takes on even more importance

446
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,560
when you get into a place of being bootstrapped

447
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,120
and cash limited, because there's not a well, you know,

448
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,800
to go dip into, you know, what you have is what you have

449
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,560
and you need to be laser focused and extremely proficient

450
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,800
in figuring out where to allocate that capital.

451
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,200
And again, whether it's going into people, you know,

452
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,280
building out the team, whether it's going into, you know,

453
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,720
processes or sort of process improvement type projects,

454
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,400
or whether it's going into technology

455
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:57,960
that supports those things,

456
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,200
you need to have those things dialed in.

457
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,520
There's just not a lot of wiggle room for failure.

458
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,560
You know, one of the things that I like about you, Dave,

459
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,400
is that you're one, a lot of people are gonna tune out

460
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,040
of this conversation because you're talking

461
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,040
about the money and entrepreneurs, you know,

462
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,040
a lot of them want to do things because of the impact

463
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,480
and they've got their hands so far pressed

464
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,800
against their ears or hard pressed it.

465
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,000
They almost think that you're talking about the money

466
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,800
because that's all you care about.

467
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,400
To me, it's easy to see that you care about

468
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,680
beyond that money.

469
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,440
So, you know, I know people are like,

470
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,160
well, he's just bromancing Dave now, you know,

471
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,480
but no, it's, it matters.

472
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,120
And you mentioned the word, steward,

473
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,240
one that for years as an entrepreneur,

474
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,920
I kind of overlooked the responsibility of.

475
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,800
And I looked and said, I just, I want to make impact.

476
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,080
I said, I don't care about the money.

477
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,000
I care about helping others.

478
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,240
I didn't realize how loose lipped I was being

479
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,320
with my responsibilities.

480
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,000
I didn't realize that if I don't care about the money,

481
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,640
the money won't care about me.

482
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,360
And it was when I made that shift about three years ago,

483
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:04,000
that I also took a great financial shift for good.

484
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,120
When I started to say, you know what?

485
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:06,960
I do need to care about this resource.

486
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,440
And it's not because I care more about it

487
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:09,800
than those that I serve.

488
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,400
It's because I need to be responsible

489
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,360
because everybody's relying on me to be responsible.

490
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:16,440
And that's kind of what I see you emulating.

491
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:17,960
So what's your vision for you?

492
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,240
It's a great question.

493
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,440
Doing a lot of, I'll call it maybe turnaround type,

494
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,320
fractional CRO work, you know, candidly is,

495
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,840
it's exhilarating and it's also exhausting at the same time.

496
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:33,920
It's a lot of work.

497
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,240
It's going extremely hard, extremely fast.

498
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,360
And I've heard some people say in the space that,

499
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,880
most fractional CROs don't really stay in the space

500
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,160
for maybe over a half a decade or so,

501
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,680
give or take before they kind of like wanna move back.

502
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,880
That fractional existed for more than a decade.

503
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,200
I'm just curious.

504
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,520
You know, probably, I just don't think we called it that

505
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,760
until recently, you know?

506
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,680
Right, that's the buzzword.

507
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,320
Yeah, so for me, I'm passionate

508
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,120
about the fractional space today,

509
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:09,160
but I'm also open-minded to the fact that

510
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,040
there may be a company at some point

511
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,920
that really pulls on maybe my heartstrings sufficiently

512
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,800
where I decide to join them,

513
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,400
or perhaps there's other things going on

514
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:18,800
in my personal life that change

515
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,960
that would lead me down a path of wanting something

516
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,080
that's maybe more long-term and consistent.

517
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,800
So while I love doing the work today,

518
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,400
there's always the potential for something down the road

519
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,320
of being in a full-time role in that capacity.

520
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,840
But, yep, to me, I also just,

521
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,600
it's walk a mile, see a mile.

522
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,800
I left to go out on my own to be a fractional CRO

523
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,720
about a year ago this time.

524
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,040
I've had some great, some amazing clients and experiences,

525
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,320
and I would call them success

526
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,720
in terms of helping those companies set up for scale,

527
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,520
and some of them are seeing success.

528
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,600
But I don't know, I may have a different answer for you

529
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,440
in a year or two.

530
00:21:58,440 --> 00:21:59,280
That's where I'm at today.

531
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,320
I'm loving what I'm doing right now.

532
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,040
Okay, you painted two different types of paradigms

533
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,600
of those analogies that I really loved.

534
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,760
One kind of like shut the door on what I was thinking,

535
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,760
but then I started imagining it.

536
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,360
So at first, one thing I'm grateful for about your vision,

537
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,800
Dave, is that you see that there's lots of possibilities

538
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,760
on the horizon, right?

539
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,840
That there's a lot, somebody might pull you

540
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:25,880
out of the fractional space.

541
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,000
You said pull your heartstrings.

542
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,480
I would add in there too, for at least for my sake,

543
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:31,320
I gotta speak for you,

544
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,600
but somebody might pull my revenue strings as well.

545
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,880
If they wanna buy us out

546
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,360
and they're aligned with what we do,

547
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:40,760
then Mark Cuban, bring it on, bro.

548
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,520
I always joke, if you weren't to pay me $10 million

549
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,240
to let go of what I'm doing,

550
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,680
then I would 100% accept that to go see what it's like

551
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,640
to work with Mark Cuban and be dedicated fully

552
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,040
to that process.

553
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,680
And at the same time, I would use that revenue

554
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,960
to bless the lives of all those I'm working with right now.

555
00:22:58,960 --> 00:22:59,800
And have the impact.

556
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,080
Put some feed Sunday, seed funding

557
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,000
into some of my clients, right?

558
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,200
To help them move forward.

559
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,000
So there's these win-win opportunities

560
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,480
that sometimes we limit ourselves from seeing.

561
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,960
Now you also then said, walk a mile, see a mile.

562
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,200
And I was like, kind of.

563
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,920
You can see a mile that way.

564
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,360
You can see a mile that way.

565
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,240
You can see a mile that way.

566
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,080
Right?

567
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,600
And so I was like, then that's what I see you doing.

568
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,600
I see so many visionaries scared to look anywhere but here.

569
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,680
And I think that that's kind of a, it's kind of scary.

570
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,400
That's kind of a shame.

571
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,600
Because the best results, it doesn't hurt

572
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,520
to just take the blinders off for a minute,

573
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,400
look around yourself, and then get back into zero in

574
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,240
and locked in.

575
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,440
So I love your vision.

576
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,680
I appreciate that.

577
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,560
Absolutely. You want to talk about a little bit further

578
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,680
before you go into worst leadership

579
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,440
or do you want to move right into the worst leadership?

580
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:54,280
Yeah.

581
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,040
I mean, I'd be happy to talk about it a little bit more.

582
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,000
One of the kind of core principles

583
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,120
and when I'm doing a lot of expectation setting

584
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,880
with my clients, especially in the early stages,

585
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,840
I talk about the concept of iterative design.

586
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,040
And iterative design means to me,

587
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,480
I'll give you my take on it, which is 75 to 80% complete

588
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,000
is sufficiently complete.

589
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,240
Meaning there's a core value that Amazon has,

590
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,560
which is called have a bias for action.

591
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,040
And the underlying principle is that speed matters

592
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,240
in business.

593
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,680
And typically, even if you're bootstrapped,

594
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,240
even if maybe your competitive market is fairly low

595
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,640
or just you don't have anybody breathing down your neck,

596
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,440
speed still matters.

597
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,280
And so when I work with my clients,

598
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,360
we talk about, hey, if this is about 75 to 80% complete,

599
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:48,440
we're gonna ship it.

600
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,960
We're gonna execute, we're gonna prioritize speed,

601
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,040
we're going to have that bias for action,

602
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,520
we're going to move quickly,

603
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,160
and we're going to learn from those things.

604
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,000
So as, again, other principles of iterative design,

605
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,160
build, test, learn, optimize, right?

606
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,520
And the quicker you can speed up those feedback loops

607
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:04,880
and figure out what's happening.

608
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,960
And by the way, you also need to have,

609
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,520
and this is where rev ops comes into it

610
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,240
to be very, very important, is you need to have metrics

611
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:13,880
and you need to have leading and lagging indicators.

612
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,800
But if you can increase those feedback loops,

613
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,800
in other words, speed in which you're executing

614
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,520
and learning, and you know about based

615
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:22,560
on your leading indicators,

616
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,440
which of these things are truly moving the needle,

617
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,820
you can effectively start to outrun your competition

618
00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:32,360
or outrun maybe other market forces

619
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:36,880
that are sort of tailing you, if you will.

620
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,760
So that's a lot of my mantra.

621
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,160
And taking that all the way back to,

622
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:42,720
what does it mean for my vision?

623
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,880
Where I'm at today is,

624
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,400
when I say walk a mile, see a mile, it's kind of like that.

625
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,760
I'm going forward, I'm hard charging down this path,

626
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,520
I believe in being focused.

627
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,360
But I also believe, like, hey,

628
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,480
I'm not saying that I'm 100% sort of baked

629
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,680
on this path either, but right now,

630
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,160
I wanna keep heading down here.

631
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,760
And once I get to maybe the next milestone,

632
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,600
who knows, maybe that's six months a year,

633
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,560
maybe 18 months from now,

634
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,400
it's good to sort of take a step back, recalibrate,

635
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,000
look around, what have I learned?

636
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:12,820
What did I like?

637
00:26:12,820 --> 00:26:13,860
What didn't I like?

638
00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:14,800
How can I be better?

639
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,560
How can I serve more, right?

640
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,560
Whether it's my clients, my customers, my personal life,

641
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,880
how can I improve on all these different angles?

642
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,280
So that's a little bit about what I mean.

643
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:28,480
Like put your head down, go,

644
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,320
but then you have those points in time

645
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,840
where you're kind of having that recalibration.

646
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,080
And again, we're diving deep in the philosophy,

647
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,140
the analogy, but that's my thing, man.

648
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,000
That's one of the reasons why I like

649
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,920
the saying you use of walk a mile.

650
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,280
You didn't say light speed a mile.

651
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,960
And I think light speed is a great place for it,

652
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,720
but you have to be willing to one,

653
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,120
hit every object in the path

654
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,760
if you haven't charted your course perfectly.

655
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,760
And two, accept the repercussions and the consequences

656
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,440
of having destroyed whatever that thing was

657
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,200
that got in your way.

658
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,880
Whereas if you are choosing to walk that mile,

659
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,320
you said charge forward.

660
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,200
If you're charging forward, but at a walk,

661
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,800
you have more balance and ability to,

662
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,400
again, make those adjustments,

663
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,400
not necessarily crush everything that gets in your way.

664
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:23,320
So food for thought.

665
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,240
It's your point when you get there, right?

666
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,040
Like pick your head up, right?

667
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,160
Mile is obviously figurative.

668
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,140
I don't know, mile might mean for you.

669
00:27:31,140 --> 00:27:33,160
Get through the next month, get through the next quarter,

670
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,360
get through the next year, whatever that means, right?

671
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:36,440
But be focused.

672
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,320
There's a point which being too opportunistic

673
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:41,440
is obviously a distraction.

674
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,760
It doesn't allow you to stay in your core field

675
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:45,740
of competency.

676
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:49,520
But at that point, pick your head up and look around.

677
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,200
Like you said, look at different paths,

678
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,280
figure out what other options are there?

679
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,580
How could you do this better?

680
00:27:54,580 --> 00:27:56,320
Is this working for you?

681
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,800
That's probably the core piece of it.

682
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,200
And that gets to me back into the concepts

683
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,800
of iterative design.

684
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,160
It's like, all right, I was pretty sure this was the case.

685
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,000
This was my plan.

686
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,120
I executed it.

687
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:06,960
Now I'm at this point.

688
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,520
I gotta reset quickly and understand,

689
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,720
look around, figure out was this the right thing?

690
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:11,720
How could I have done it better?

691
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:12,880
Where do we go from here?

692
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,620
What's next?

693
00:28:14,620 --> 00:28:19,620
But my vision probably boils down to some element of

694
00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:21,000
I love doing the CRO work.

695
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,600
I love kind of the reverse engineering,

696
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,800
helping companies, especially in my space,

697
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,980
somewhere between two to $20 million in revenue,

698
00:28:27,980 --> 00:28:31,680
fix their processes so that they can scale

699
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,160
to whatever their growth objectives or goals are.

700
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,020
But to get there, you're not gonna have

701
00:28:38,020 --> 00:28:39,320
all the answers up front.

702
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:40,400
That's just a fallacy.

703
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,560
But you do need to have a plan.

704
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:42,440
You need to execute it.

705
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,440
You need to make adjustments and then sort of recalibrate

706
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,640
that plan as you go forward.

707
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,720
Absolutely.

708
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,000
Well said.

709
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,020
So let's talk about that worst leadership experience ever.

710
00:28:53,020 --> 00:28:54,200
What does that look like?

711
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,560
This could be your own.

712
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,920
This could be one you've seen in a leader personally.

713
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,720
This could be one you've seen on TV.

714
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:01,700
Man, good question.

715
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,720
Worst leadership experience ever.

716
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,800
I had one experience.

717
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,320
This kind of alludes back to what I mentioned earlier

718
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,960
about holding some sales leadership roles

719
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,280
where I had found a lot of success

720
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,600
and others where I would say were more failures,

721
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,120
just to be blunt and maybe broad.

722
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,560
But as I looked around in terms of some of the leadership

723
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,920
pieces of that, there was a couple things

724
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,360
that stuck out to me.

725
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,600
And a lot of it candidly came down to the founder,

726
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,040
in this case, like CEO of this group.

727
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,840
And really, I would say, in my opinion,

728
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,840
just not having a realistic grounded perspective

729
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,800
in terms of where the company truly is at today

730
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,200
from a growth or life stage perspective.

731
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,760
So said a little bit differently,

732
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,440
typical involvement of a company,

733
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,820
you go through some level of product market fit,

734
00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:09,660
and then you go through typically what,

735
00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:12,140
especially in SaaS, they call go to market fit,

736
00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:13,420
which is where you're trying to figure out

737
00:30:13,420 --> 00:30:16,820
those repeatable, predictable processes that allow scale.

738
00:30:16,820 --> 00:30:18,500
And then once you get into scale mode,

739
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:20,340
obviously you're starting to go narrow and deep

740
00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:22,180
in a lot of your functional areas,

741
00:30:22,180 --> 00:30:23,620
and you're building out competency

742
00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:26,740
and potentially layering in additional go to market

743
00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:28,700
or business models, et cetera,

744
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:32,700
as you start to find that growth stride.

745
00:30:34,060 --> 00:30:35,760
One of the biggest leadership,

746
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,860
and particularly this one that I was thinking about,

747
00:30:37,860 --> 00:30:42,860
was really just not being real with where you're at.

748
00:30:43,420 --> 00:30:45,740
So in this case, saying,

749
00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:48,060
hey, we've achieved product market fit,

750
00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:50,540
our product's great, we know that it has

751
00:30:52,580 --> 00:30:55,460
the impact in the market with our customer base

752
00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:57,340
that we say it will.

753
00:30:57,340 --> 00:30:59,300
Now we just gotta figure out how to throw more leads

754
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:03,220
and build more pipeline, fill the funnel further.

755
00:31:03,220 --> 00:31:06,140
The reality was that the product didn't work.

756
00:31:06,140 --> 00:31:08,580
It didn't work as it said it was.

757
00:31:08,580 --> 00:31:10,900
I saw this because I also was wearing a Sales

758
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:13,620
and a Customer Success sort of account management

759
00:31:13,620 --> 00:31:15,260
hat at the time.

760
00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:17,460
We weren't even able to use the product

761
00:31:17,460 --> 00:31:19,300
the way that the product was marketed

762
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:21,100
and sort of the value that it was supposed

763
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:22,660
to bring to our clients.

764
00:31:22,660 --> 00:31:25,560
We weren't even able to use it on their behalf in that way.

765
00:31:26,580 --> 00:31:30,180
And so the diagnosis of the problem around,

766
00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:32,740
well, we just need to throw a body at sales

767
00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:34,300
and just fill the pipeline.

768
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:37,300
That's the solution for why we're not seeing growth

769
00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:39,860
was absolutely the wrong diagnosis.

770
00:31:39,860 --> 00:31:42,360
The reality was we haven't achieved product market fit.

771
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,180
We haven't really measured and truly understand

772
00:31:45,180 --> 00:31:47,600
and really accomplished real impact

773
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,760
within our customer base today.

774
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,580
And for those reasons, the ability to fill more pipeline

775
00:31:53,580 --> 00:31:57,180
just creates more chaos and confusion and inefficiencies

776
00:31:57,180 --> 00:32:00,800
in terms of our success and our sales processes

777
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,780
rather than actually fixing the problem,

778
00:32:03,780 --> 00:32:05,660
the revenue problem that we thought we had.

779
00:32:05,660 --> 00:32:10,060
So to me, I think in a company in that space,

780
00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:14,060
this particular one, the failure in leadership was like,

781
00:32:14,940 --> 00:32:17,060
thou shalt not fake thyself out, I guess,

782
00:32:17,060 --> 00:32:18,300
is what I would boil it down to.

783
00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:20,420
You are not where you think you are yet.

784
00:32:20,420 --> 00:32:22,820
And to the extent that you want to believe that

785
00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:24,980
and force that into your reality,

786
00:32:24,980 --> 00:32:26,460
I mean, do that at your own peril

787
00:32:26,460 --> 00:32:29,420
because as long as you continue diagnosing

788
00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:31,380
sort of the disease in your company incorrectly,

789
00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:33,360
you will not see growth,

790
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,500
you will not see those issues resolve themselves

791
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:39,060
and simply throwing more bodies at a problem

792
00:32:39,060 --> 00:32:40,900
without addressing the root cause

793
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:43,020
and being realistic with where you're at

794
00:32:43,020 --> 00:32:44,940
is not going to bring you to where you think

795
00:32:44,940 --> 00:32:46,480
you need to be today.

796
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,540
So I guess my message there for,

797
00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:51,860
especially like the visionary founder

798
00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:54,180
is it's great to be visionary.

799
00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:58,620
It's great to be optimistic, future thinking,

800
00:32:58,620 --> 00:33:01,780
tell that vision, but it's really important,

801
00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:03,540
whether it's you or you have a counterpart

802
00:33:03,540 --> 00:33:04,940
in your leadership team,

803
00:33:04,940 --> 00:33:07,980
that's that operator mindset that's grounded.

804
00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:09,540
You need to have that counterbalance

805
00:33:09,540 --> 00:33:12,860
and you need to have that person that can keep you grounded

806
00:33:12,860 --> 00:33:15,000
while you're also being the visionary.

807
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,940
And you need to be able to make sure you're executing

808
00:33:16,940 --> 00:33:19,740
based on where you're at in your growth curve,

809
00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:20,700
your growth plan.

810
00:33:21,580 --> 00:33:24,220
Absolutely, well said.

811
00:33:24,220 --> 00:33:28,700
And it's for he that has you, so I'm here.

812
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:31,100
Entrepreneurs, if you're the visionary,

813
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,780
you're likely not the person who's grounded.

814
00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:36,680
Very important to get somebody who is by your side

815
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,060
that you're willing to listen to.

816
00:33:39,060 --> 00:33:41,820
What's your best leadership experience look like Dave?

817
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,160
Best leadership experience.

818
00:33:48,340 --> 00:33:50,220
For me, this would be,

819
00:33:50,220 --> 00:33:53,540
so this is more reflective of probably my work style

820
00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:56,140
in terms of how I would answer this.

821
00:33:56,140 --> 00:33:59,580
One of the things as you've kind of picked up on here

822
00:33:59,580 --> 00:34:01,620
when I talk about reverse engineering processes,

823
00:34:01,620 --> 00:34:03,720
looking back, I'm not just looking externally,

824
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,520
I'm also looking internally at like, who am I?

825
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,160
What did I learn about myself?

826
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,060
How could I have been better?

827
00:34:09,060 --> 00:34:09,900
What could I have learned?

828
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:12,140
What could I have done differently?

829
00:34:12,140 --> 00:34:16,420
So when I think about best leadership experiences

830
00:34:16,420 --> 00:34:19,660
that I've had, there were two in particular

831
00:34:19,660 --> 00:34:24,660
that whether they were consciously or unconsciously competent,

832
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:28,020
they were able to figure out this is the type of,

833
00:34:28,020 --> 00:34:29,540
this is how I need to work with Dave.

834
00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:33,420
This is how I bring out his sort of zone of genius.

835
00:34:33,420 --> 00:34:36,660
And so for me, what that always was, was give me the problem,

836
00:34:36,660 --> 00:34:38,540
tell me the macro level issue,

837
00:34:38,540 --> 00:34:40,580
give me as much detail as you know,

838
00:34:40,580 --> 00:34:43,380
and then tell me, like set me down a path at least,

839
00:34:43,380 --> 00:34:45,020
tell me where to get started

840
00:34:45,020 --> 00:34:48,140
and be a resource if I need help,

841
00:34:48,140 --> 00:34:51,460
but let me just go execute and I'll come back to you

842
00:34:51,460 --> 00:34:53,860
as I have questions, as I need feedback,

843
00:34:53,860 --> 00:34:56,140
as I need to course correct, right?

844
00:34:56,140 --> 00:34:57,680
And as I need things.

845
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,220
So for me personally, the best,

846
00:34:59,220 --> 00:35:03,080
the two best leadership experiences I've had were,

847
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,260
one was early in my career

848
00:35:04,260 --> 00:35:07,500
and one I would say was maybe about six years ago.

849
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:09,060
And it was both working for individuals

850
00:35:09,060 --> 00:35:11,580
that had that ability to say,

851
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:13,920
hey, I'm empowering you to go address

852
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,860
this large issue that we have.

853
00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:19,100
Here's again, here's what I think about it.

854
00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:20,580
Here's what I know about it.

855
00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:21,980
Here's some additional detail.

856
00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:24,540
Here's a list of people or sort of ways

857
00:35:24,540 --> 00:35:28,020
to go address this issue and go attack it.

858
00:35:28,020 --> 00:35:33,020
Now I will block, I'll block and clear the road for you,

859
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:34,780
I guess blocking and tackling,

860
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:38,240
but I will, but I'm not gonna get in your way.

861
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:39,740
I'm not going to micromanage you.

862
00:35:39,740 --> 00:35:42,460
I'm not going to get in your business.

863
00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:45,180
I'm not going to do a significant amount

864
00:35:45,180 --> 00:35:48,660
of like questioning, like ad nauseam.

865
00:35:48,660 --> 00:35:52,620
I'm empowering you to go address the situation.

866
00:35:52,620 --> 00:35:54,660
To give a little bit more color,

867
00:35:54,660 --> 00:35:58,180
that exact same leadership style applies

868
00:35:58,180 --> 00:36:00,020
whether you're in sales or a revenue role

869
00:36:00,020 --> 00:36:01,300
or you're in operations role,

870
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:03,260
because these two individuals,

871
00:36:03,260 --> 00:36:05,060
for me that I'm thinking about here,

872
00:36:05,060 --> 00:36:07,540
one was in a straight up operations,

873
00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:11,000
sort of part of the company early in my career.

874
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,680
And the other one was more in a sales leadership role

875
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,740
where that particular company was in the red.

876
00:36:16,740 --> 00:36:18,020
They were not profitable.

877
00:36:18,020 --> 00:36:21,380
They were heading down a pretty, a bad path

878
00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:23,020
in terms of their cash position

879
00:36:23,020 --> 00:36:25,020
and what that was gonna mean for them.

880
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:28,260
So again, one issue was fix this operations issue.

881
00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:30,400
The other one was basically fix this revenue problem

882
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,400
that I have, but here's what I can empower you with.

883
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,460
And then let me know how else I can support.

884
00:36:35,460 --> 00:36:39,980
So, you know, my takeaway there maybe

885
00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:42,260
there's no one leadership style that works for everybody,

886
00:36:42,260 --> 00:36:44,580
but it is critical, especially with the importance

887
00:36:44,580 --> 00:36:46,340
for this problem that you're trying to find somebody

888
00:36:46,340 --> 00:36:48,100
to solve in your business, you know,

889
00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:50,640
merits the investment into a person

890
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,320
to go attack this problem.

891
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,100
Make sure you know the person that you're working with.

892
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:56,420
Make sure you go deep into their style,

893
00:36:56,420 --> 00:36:59,100
understand and be able to validate how to work with them

894
00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:00,780
and how to bring the best out of them

895
00:37:00,780 --> 00:37:03,220
and put them kind of in their zone of consciousness

896
00:37:03,220 --> 00:37:06,620
or zone of genius or competence, I'm sorry.

897
00:37:06,620 --> 00:37:09,460
And make sure you, you know, you equip them

898
00:37:09,460 --> 00:37:10,700
and meet them where they're at.

899
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:12,460
And that's very difficult, but I think some

900
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:16,260
of the best leaders out there exemplify those things

901
00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:17,100
really, really well.

902
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:19,220
And they get results through their people

903
00:37:19,220 --> 00:37:22,420
because they recognize what each individual

904
00:37:22,420 --> 00:37:23,540
on their team needs.

905
00:37:24,420 --> 00:37:27,420
Well said, I've got, you sparked some memories

906
00:37:27,420 --> 00:37:30,160
about leaders that I hadn't thought about in a while.

907
00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:32,900
And a couple of principles.

908
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:36,260
If I, I wanna be careful with this

909
00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:37,580
cause I need to ponder it a little bit,

910
00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:39,380
but one of the concepts that come to mind is

911
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:44,380
I think my worst managers, my more difficult managers

912
00:37:45,420 --> 00:37:50,420
were far more valuable to me than the mediocre managers

913
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,780
who didn't, who just kind of existed.

914
00:37:53,780 --> 00:37:56,700
I think they had more of a positive impact on my life

915
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,100
than those who were just nice.

916
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:00,900
Then, oh, go ahead.

917
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:01,740
You wanna hit that?

918
00:38:01,740 --> 00:38:02,580
I was just gonna say, I would agree.

919
00:38:02,580 --> 00:38:05,140
I mean, I think, you know, the,

920
00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:09,620
while I'd say maybe the results were more impactful

921
00:38:09,620 --> 00:38:12,460
in sort of the positive situations,

922
00:38:12,460 --> 00:38:15,580
what I learned and how I personally grew and developed

923
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:20,640
from that relationship with that leader

924
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,260
was significantly greater with the ones, to your point,

925
00:38:25,260 --> 00:38:27,140
that were not positive, that were difficult,

926
00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:29,540
that were hard, that, you know, we didn't see eye to eye.

927
00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:30,380
Like it-

928
00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:31,820
Here's the thing about that, dude.

929
00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:33,940
Here's the big thing that just hit me with that.

930
00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:37,060
So like my dad, for instance, super hard on everybody,

931
00:38:37,060 --> 00:38:39,820
you know, very, very hard on us, but he cared.

932
00:38:41,220 --> 00:38:44,400
I, looking back, these managers that were

933
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,540
kind of weak sauce managers, good people, nice people,

934
00:38:47,540 --> 00:38:48,960
they didn't care at all.

935
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,820
They were there to clock in and clock out and leave,

936
00:38:51,820 --> 00:38:53,940
you know, and so I think that's a big part of it is,

937
00:38:53,940 --> 00:38:56,220
you know, is that person, do they really care about you

938
00:38:56,220 --> 00:38:58,620
or do they just, are they just going through the motions,

939
00:38:58,620 --> 00:39:00,140
you know, and existing there?

940
00:39:01,060 --> 00:39:03,780
You know, nice, again, is it feels good,

941
00:39:03,780 --> 00:39:06,260
but it doesn't always mean that that person

942
00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:08,260
had your best interest at heart.

943
00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:11,660
So at least he cared, you know, and tried.

944
00:39:11,660 --> 00:39:14,340
And I've got many managers that were like that too.

945
00:39:14,340 --> 00:39:16,220
Again, feel free to pick that up.

946
00:39:16,220 --> 00:39:18,160
Yeah, I feel like, I would just say like,

947
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:19,700
I feel like you could sniff that out, you know,

948
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:22,220
especially if you've had a few reps under your belt

949
00:39:22,220 --> 00:39:25,500
throughout your career, you can pretty quickly

950
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:29,860
get beyond the words that are said to sort of the meaning

951
00:39:29,860 --> 00:39:32,100
and the motivations behind those words.

952
00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:35,340
And, you know, that's tough,

953
00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:37,580
because if you're interviewing for a job

954
00:39:37,580 --> 00:39:41,780
or you're interviewing, you know, to bring somebody on

955
00:39:41,780 --> 00:39:45,140
or you're looking to join a group, you know,

956
00:39:45,140 --> 00:39:49,560
how deeply you can go in that process, you know,

957
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,540
may be limited, so, but eventually that stuff comes out,

958
00:39:53,540 --> 00:39:55,580
you know, if the motivation's absolutely come out,

959
00:39:55,580 --> 00:39:57,740
the reasons why they're there, what they truly care about,

960
00:39:57,740 --> 00:40:02,020
and if they care about you, it always comes out.

961
00:40:02,020 --> 00:40:03,620
I got to give credit where credit's due too,

962
00:40:03,620 --> 00:40:06,380
since you sparked it and it's just so strong right now.

963
00:40:06,380 --> 00:40:08,300
He's gonna be shocked that I say this,

964
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:11,620
and I've worked with a lot of excellent, excellent managers.

965
00:40:11,620 --> 00:40:13,940
The best that I've worked with for me

966
00:40:13,940 --> 00:40:15,500
was a man named Lamar Lamarrow.

967
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:20,260
And Lamar, I don't really talk anymore,

968
00:40:20,260 --> 00:40:25,260
but he knew how to guide me and bridle my passion

969
00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:27,440
and help me move forward.

970
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,920
And he had so much patience.

971
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,460
I was so difficult with the man.

972
00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:36,420
And he was there to try to help utilize my resources

973
00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:39,300
and make sure that I was successful in the process.

974
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:42,420
And just, I'm really like, whatever you said,

975
00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:46,220
it was about you talking about the ones who empower you

976
00:40:46,220 --> 00:40:49,700
and allow you to kind of grow and learn and let go,

977
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:51,820
you know, and at the same time,

978
00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:55,660
you made space for those who have different

979
00:40:55,660 --> 00:40:56,820
management styles, right?

980
00:40:56,820 --> 00:40:57,700
They come in maybe a little bit,

981
00:40:57,700 --> 00:40:59,940
and Lamar had to have a little bit different style with me

982
00:40:59,940 --> 00:41:01,580
because I wouldn't have listened

983
00:41:01,580 --> 00:41:05,300
had he not been willing to come at me when I needed it.

984
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:07,300
So I appreciate that, Dave.

985
00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:11,440
This was your last lesson you could ever share

986
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:12,280
with the world.

987
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,540
What powerful lesson can other visionaries learn

988
00:41:14,540 --> 00:41:15,580
from your experience?

989
00:41:17,060 --> 00:41:18,220
Such a good question.

990
00:41:21,420 --> 00:41:24,020
So what's going through my head today

991
00:41:24,020 --> 00:41:26,860
in terms of how I personally develop

992
00:41:26,860 --> 00:41:28,000
and where I need to focus

993
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,820
and where I need to shore up my weaknesses

994
00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:33,820
or magnify my strengths definitely has changed.

995
00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:36,180
So I'm gonna make a bit of a broad statement here,

996
00:41:36,180 --> 00:41:39,220
which is that if you're smart, right?

997
00:41:39,220 --> 00:41:42,020
Like you've got the intelligence piece of it down,

998
00:41:42,020 --> 00:41:44,580
you're able to like learn quickly, you know,

999
00:41:44,580 --> 00:41:47,780
about the how to, maybe even the why to.

1000
00:41:47,780 --> 00:41:50,620
I think at some point, and for me, I'm 38,

1001
00:41:50,620 --> 00:41:54,040
so this is starting to take on more and more meaning to me

1002
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,660
than it ever did early in my career

1003
00:41:55,660 --> 00:41:58,220
where I more admired like intelligence

1004
00:41:58,220 --> 00:42:03,220
and can you get up and inspire and those things.

1005
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:06,820
The emotional intelligence aspect of leadership to me

1006
00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:09,060
is it's everything.

1007
00:42:09,060 --> 00:42:11,940
It's the sweet sauce, if you will.

1008
00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:17,700
So the lesson here really is it's fine to learn

1009
00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:20,260
about things in the how and the why,

1010
00:42:20,260 --> 00:42:23,960
but eventually who you are and your ability

1011
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,860
to win the game between your ears

1012
00:42:26,860 --> 00:42:31,460
in terms of managing your emotions as you lead people,

1013
00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:34,500
whether that's personally or professionally

1014
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:39,500
is really the biggest game sort of to win.

1015
00:42:40,660 --> 00:42:43,300
And not that there's necessarily a win either,

1016
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:47,820
but how you develop and mature in your emotional ability

1017
00:42:47,820 --> 00:42:51,280
to deal with problems and headaches and issues

1018
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,140
and how you maybe compartmentalize

1019
00:42:55,140 --> 00:42:57,820
and how you sort of treat others, individuals,

1020
00:42:58,740 --> 00:43:01,920
through those hard times and those processes.

1021
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,380
I think that's the kind of the stuff

1022
00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:06,540
that really leaves more of a legacy,

1023
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:09,100
especially on an individual basis,

1024
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:13,180
being able to lead with a high maybe emotional, is it EQ?

1025
00:43:14,660 --> 00:43:17,660
Those are the things that last lifetimes.

1026
00:43:17,660 --> 00:43:19,620
The dollars, they kind of come and go,

1027
00:43:19,620 --> 00:43:22,860
the strategies come and go, the people, not the people,

1028
00:43:22,860 --> 00:43:27,340
the accomplishments, the sort of superficial stuff

1029
00:43:27,340 --> 00:43:29,700
that gets for different reasons,

1030
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:31,300
just gets a lot of the publicity.

1031
00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:32,460
Those things kind of come and go,

1032
00:43:32,460 --> 00:43:35,220
but the impact you have largely will be

1033
00:43:35,220 --> 00:43:37,460
how well you can lead and lead well

1034
00:43:37,460 --> 00:43:41,020
with a high degree of EQ, in my opinion.

1035
00:43:41,020 --> 00:43:42,260
Well said.

1036
00:43:42,260 --> 00:43:45,420
If the people are coming and going in your life,

1037
00:43:45,420 --> 00:43:49,620
then the EQ is probably where you can go spend some time

1038
00:43:49,620 --> 00:43:52,860
to also find some resolution around that.

1039
00:43:52,860 --> 00:43:54,500
Sometimes you can't always control it,

1040
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:59,460
and it can take a significant amount of planning,

1041
00:43:59,460 --> 00:44:03,700
moving, and life shifting to gain a balance of friends

1042
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:06,940
and support that does support you long-term.

1043
00:44:06,940 --> 00:44:08,940
But yeah, EQ has a lot to do with that.

1044
00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:11,520
So I'll take that, I appreciate that.

1045
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,300
Diving into the subject, reverse engineering,

1046
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:20,300
the revenue processes, and for the sake of uncovering growth,

1047
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:22,820
let's try to hit that for five minutes.

1048
00:44:22,820 --> 00:44:23,940
What do we got?

1049
00:44:23,940 --> 00:44:27,300
Dave, what things, what actions could I take

1050
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:28,700
as an entrepreneur today?

1051
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:32,820
And let's go with the advanced version of this.

1052
00:44:32,820 --> 00:44:34,300
I'm not your entry-level person,

1053
00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:36,120
but they've been at this for 10 years.

1054
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,460
What the heck do they need to be looking at?

1055
00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:41,940
Yeah, so there's a group out there

1056
00:44:41,940 --> 00:44:43,620
called Winning by Design.

1057
00:44:43,620 --> 00:44:45,220
You're probably familiar with them.

1058
00:44:45,220 --> 00:44:50,220
The CEO, Jaco van der Kooij, is an absolute stud,

1059
00:44:50,620 --> 00:44:53,620
in my opinion, in the go-to-market space.

1060
00:44:53,620 --> 00:44:56,940
They do a lot of primary and secondary research

1061
00:44:56,940 --> 00:44:58,180
on go-to-market motions,

1062
00:44:58,180 --> 00:45:02,300
but they don't just do them as singular frameworks.

1063
00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:04,440
They're actually updating go-to-market

1064
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,700
as it relates to how macro and microeconomic forces

1065
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:10,300
are shaping things going forward.

1066
00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:14,260
So to say, for example, the way they go to market,

1067
00:45:14,260 --> 00:45:16,500
go-to-market motions have changed

1068
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:19,100
over the last maybe 18 to 24 months

1069
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:22,180
with the rising cost of capital has changed

1070
00:45:22,180 --> 00:45:23,740
what companies can do profitably.

1071
00:45:23,740 --> 00:45:25,540
We also have inflation,

1072
00:45:25,540 --> 00:45:27,620
which obviously affects customer acquisition costs

1073
00:45:27,620 --> 00:45:28,820
within a company.

1074
00:45:28,820 --> 00:45:32,900
And so your ability to understand those changes

1075
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:34,620
and what the impact is

1076
00:45:34,620 --> 00:45:36,900
to your particular go-to-market motion.

1077
00:45:36,900 --> 00:45:38,300
And by the way, I'm going to assume

1078
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:41,700
that you have the right go-to-market strategy in place

1079
00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:43,500
that allows scale for you,

1080
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:45,420
is actually incredibly important.

1081
00:45:45,420 --> 00:45:49,620
So going deeper on reverse engineering revenue processes,

1082
00:45:49,620 --> 00:45:51,020
and I'll overlay this a little bit

1083
00:45:51,020 --> 00:45:56,020
with some of their, what they call growth model matrix,

1084
00:45:58,660 --> 00:46:01,740
which is that as you emerge

1085
00:46:01,740 --> 00:46:04,920
from that opportunistic product market fit,

1086
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,580
I'm just getting this company off the ground.

1087
00:46:06,580 --> 00:46:08,260
I'm trying, I'm doing whatever I can.

1088
00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:10,060
I kind of call it throw mud against the wall

1089
00:46:10,060 --> 00:46:11,860
to see what sticks.

1090
00:46:11,860 --> 00:46:14,100
And lo and behold, after so many years,

1091
00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:17,660
I now have a couple million dollars in revenue,

1092
00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:18,940
but that's not where I want to stop.

1093
00:46:18,940 --> 00:46:20,160
I have larger goals.

1094
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,200
I need to now connect the dots between where I'm at today

1095
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,900
and maybe a couple million dollars in revenue

1096
00:46:24,900 --> 00:46:26,780
in my longer term goals for the company.

1097
00:46:26,780 --> 00:46:27,940
And that's going to change for everybody.

1098
00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:30,620
That might be, if I could just get this thing

1099
00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:32,540
to 20 million bucks, that would be amazing.

1100
00:46:32,540 --> 00:46:35,420
If I could get this thing to X dollars per share,

1101
00:46:35,420 --> 00:46:37,260
in terms of equity value, that would be amazing.

1102
00:46:37,260 --> 00:46:39,100
If I could get it to 50 million, you know what?

1103
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:41,020
I'm really not the 50 million plus guy.

1104
00:46:41,020 --> 00:46:43,620
So I think I'd probably exit at that point.

1105
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:46,460
But understanding what your go-to-market motion

1106
00:46:46,460 --> 00:46:47,980
and how well it lines up

1107
00:46:47,980 --> 00:46:51,980
with your internal revenue functions today

1108
00:46:51,980 --> 00:46:53,340
is incredibly important.

1109
00:46:53,340 --> 00:46:55,220
Because especially if you're in a place

1110
00:46:55,220 --> 00:46:57,520
where you are bootstrapped or you just have

1111
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,180
very limited cash and your burn rate is a very real

1112
00:47:01,180 --> 00:47:02,740
financial metric that you're looking at

1113
00:47:02,740 --> 00:47:04,580
probably on a weekly basis,

1114
00:47:04,580 --> 00:47:07,520
you can't operate in the red too long.

1115
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,820
So one of the things that I see a lot of companies doing

1116
00:47:10,820 --> 00:47:13,500
especially again, emerging from product market fit,

1117
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:15,880
that opportunistic kind of growth mindset,

1118
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,580
we'll just grow that however we can get it,

1119
00:47:18,580 --> 00:47:22,100
is really starting to think in terms of scalable

1120
00:47:22,100 --> 00:47:25,180
and durable growth, meaning like cost-effective,

1121
00:47:25,180 --> 00:47:26,660
profitable growth.

1122
00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:28,460
And I think we're seeing even a bit of a shift

1123
00:47:28,460 --> 00:47:31,420
in funded companies from VCs

1124
00:47:31,420 --> 00:47:33,220
and where they're looking to add dollars

1125
00:47:33,220 --> 00:47:36,260
and the types of metrics and KPIs

1126
00:47:36,260 --> 00:47:37,940
that they're asking for today.

1127
00:47:37,940 --> 00:47:40,100
So one of the things, so what I do is,

1128
00:47:40,100 --> 00:47:43,100
so oftentimes I'll see companies that perhaps are

1129
00:47:43,100 --> 00:47:45,000
more of like a product-led growth company.

1130
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,900
For example, maybe their annual contract value is,

1131
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:50,900
let's say sub $10,000.

1132
00:47:51,820 --> 00:47:55,020
And they're doing maybe hundreds or maybe thousands

1133
00:47:55,020 --> 00:47:57,180
of deals per year.

1134
00:47:57,180 --> 00:48:00,780
They have a very high-qualified, expensive sales team

1135
00:48:00,780 --> 00:48:03,780
that they're sending out to go sign up these $10,000,

1136
00:48:03,780 --> 00:48:06,060
$12,000 deals every month.

1137
00:48:06,060 --> 00:48:08,220
The problem with that is that typically

1138
00:48:08,220 --> 00:48:11,940
if you have a tenured, i.e. expensive sales team

1139
00:48:11,940 --> 00:48:14,220
to go get those deals, you're basically leveraging

1140
00:48:14,220 --> 00:48:16,460
like aspects of a sales-led growth company

1141
00:48:16,460 --> 00:48:20,700
for a company that, from a go-to-market motion,

1142
00:48:20,700 --> 00:48:25,700
can only feasibly support customer acquisition costs

1143
00:48:26,940 --> 00:48:30,420
that are aligned with the product in your marketing,

1144
00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:32,820
things that are kind of scalable within those

1145
00:48:32,820 --> 00:48:34,140
to allow you to be profitable

1146
00:48:34,140 --> 00:48:36,260
on an individual customer basis.

1147
00:48:36,260 --> 00:48:39,540
So a lot of times what I see is we'll be like,

1148
00:48:39,540 --> 00:48:42,740
well, we're throwing, we have like a VP of sales,

1149
00:48:42,740 --> 00:48:44,740
but we're trying to get them to sell

1150
00:48:44,740 --> 00:48:47,060
like $5,000, $10,000 deals every month.

1151
00:48:47,060 --> 00:48:49,460
And it's like, the problem with that is the revenue

1152
00:48:49,460 --> 00:48:50,660
economics will never work.

1153
00:48:50,660 --> 00:48:53,660
Your customer acquisition costs related to probably

1154
00:48:53,660 --> 00:48:56,660
your customer lifetime value will never be in a position

1155
00:48:56,660 --> 00:49:01,660
where you can feasibly be profitable on a unit sort of basis

1156
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,340
or on an individual customer basis.

1157
00:49:04,340 --> 00:49:06,940
So having that like kind of customer acquisition

1158
00:49:06,940 --> 00:49:10,780
to like lifetime value of a customer alignment

1159
00:49:10,780 --> 00:49:13,620
across your go-to-market motion is incredibly important.

1160
00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:15,460
And I feel like one of the things, again,

1161
00:49:15,460 --> 00:49:18,900
I love about Winning by Design is that they articulate

1162
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:21,300
a lot of those things across like this continuum

1163
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:22,780
of product-led growth all the way

1164
00:49:22,780 --> 00:49:25,980
to sales-led growth motions in the role of marketing, sales,

1165
00:49:25,980 --> 00:49:28,340
and customer success within each.

1166
00:49:28,340 --> 00:49:31,740
And it's basically built around fundamentals

1167
00:49:31,740 --> 00:49:33,660
of revenue economics.

1168
00:49:33,660 --> 00:49:37,100
You know, the basics here are you need to make more

1169
00:49:37,100 --> 00:49:38,860
on an individual customer than it costs for you

1170
00:49:38,860 --> 00:49:40,180
to acquire that customer.

1171
00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:42,580
And if you're too lopsided for too long,

1172
00:49:42,580 --> 00:49:43,940
bad things are gonna happen.

1173
00:49:43,940 --> 00:49:45,140
You know, you're gonna run out of cash,

1174
00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:46,900
you're gonna have to go raise more money,

1175
00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:48,700
you're gonna be insolvent, you know,

1176
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:50,020
you're gonna have to lay people off,

1177
00:49:50,020 --> 00:49:52,060
you're gonna have to do a lot of not fun things.

1178
00:49:52,060 --> 00:49:55,700
So when it comes to reverse engineering revenue processes,

1179
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:58,100
a lot of times I start off and I see people just trying

1180
00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:00,900
to be too many things to too many individuals.

1181
00:50:00,900 --> 00:50:04,100
They built their team around maybe what they did

1182
00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:07,260
in their last company or what's familiar to them.

1183
00:50:07,260 --> 00:50:09,180
And they're like, well, we need to do content marketing,

1184
00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:10,780
but we also need to build community,

1185
00:50:10,780 --> 00:50:13,380
but we also need to have highly specialized salespeople.

1186
00:50:13,380 --> 00:50:17,140
And you're so like, you're spreading yourself so thin

1187
00:50:17,140 --> 00:50:19,500
across so many different go-to-market activities

1188
00:50:19,500 --> 00:50:22,620
that many of which will not be cost-effective at all,

1189
00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:25,180
that you need to start to streamline those things.

1190
00:50:25,180 --> 00:50:27,820
To say it differently, like understand the lane you're in,

1191
00:50:27,820 --> 00:50:29,380
understand the game you're playing,

1192
00:50:29,380 --> 00:50:32,060
understand the revenue economics that dictate

1193
00:50:32,060 --> 00:50:34,620
whether you can survive in that space

1194
00:50:34,620 --> 00:50:37,100
and then go deeply into that space.

1195
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:41,860
So ultimately for me, after we kind of dissect their team,

1196
00:50:41,860 --> 00:50:44,660
their processes, what's working for them today,

1197
00:50:44,660 --> 00:50:46,140
we look at their customers,

1198
00:50:46,140 --> 00:50:49,300
we go deep into internal and external data,

1199
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:51,260
we ultimately come up with a go-to-market strategy

1200
00:50:51,260 --> 00:50:53,500
that oftentimes says, hey, let's shift out of this

1201
00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:54,780
trying to be too many things

1202
00:50:54,780 --> 00:50:57,340
and leverage too many different activities

1203
00:50:57,340 --> 00:51:00,220
across different marketing, excuse me, go-to-market motions,

1204
00:51:00,220 --> 00:51:02,540
and let's align them on a singular thing

1205
00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:04,940
because your data, by the way, supports

1206
00:51:04,940 --> 00:51:08,180
that this is where things become repeatable, predictable,

1207
00:51:08,180 --> 00:51:10,100
scalable and profitable,

1208
00:51:10,100 --> 00:51:12,940
and let's laser focus on these set of things.

1209
00:51:12,940 --> 00:51:15,860
So many times like the output of reverse engineering,

1210
00:51:15,860 --> 00:51:17,620
revenue processes building go-to-market

1211
00:51:17,620 --> 00:51:20,460
is basically saying no to so many,

1212
00:51:20,460 --> 00:51:21,460
like, hey, we're not gonna do

1213
00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:23,300
these set of activities anymore.

1214
00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:27,300
And that means we're going to just laser focus on these set

1215
00:51:27,300 --> 00:51:29,380
because we know what the output

1216
00:51:29,380 --> 00:51:30,980
is going to be on the other side.

1217
00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:34,420
I tremendously admire your confidence

1218
00:51:34,420 --> 00:51:36,900
as well as your ability to nurture people

1219
00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:38,420
through that experience.

1220
00:51:38,420 --> 00:51:42,820
It's two fantastic gifts that make me say,

1221
00:51:42,820 --> 00:51:45,020
hey, I hope Chris and Chris Chambers

1222
00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:48,380
and you catch up a lot more about the processes.

1223
00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:51,620
The, you know, the or in that equation

1224
00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:54,700
is you mentioned having that veteran sales rep,

1225
00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:59,060
the VP of sales, they can't be selling $5,000 packages.

1226
00:51:59,060 --> 00:52:01,700
So they have to be selling packages.

1227
00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:03,540
They have to be, know how to target

1228
00:52:03,540 --> 00:52:05,780
the right type of ideal clients

1229
00:52:05,780 --> 00:52:10,780
and be selling at that 20, 30, 50, 150,000 and beyond

1230
00:52:11,420 --> 00:52:14,060
in order to make that profitable.

1231
00:52:14,060 --> 00:52:16,460
And then of course, bolster the operations

1232
00:52:16,460 --> 00:52:18,100
behind all of that.

1233
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:19,540
But I do agree with you.

1234
00:52:19,540 --> 00:52:21,340
There's a bit of a pipe dream there.

1235
00:52:21,340 --> 00:52:25,700
If you're not being a wise steward.

1236
00:52:25,700 --> 00:52:26,540
Let's find that.

1237
00:52:26,540 --> 00:52:27,380
So.

1238
00:52:27,380 --> 00:52:28,900
If you don't mind, the other thing I'd layer in

1239
00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:30,900
is there are a lot of other fractionals

1240
00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:32,060
and consultants out there

1241
00:52:32,060 --> 00:52:33,940
that a lot of times will come into a business.

1242
00:52:33,940 --> 00:52:36,540
Again, let's say sub $20 million

1243
00:52:36,540 --> 00:52:38,940
and talk about all these different ancillary markets.

1244
00:52:38,940 --> 00:52:40,260
Like you should be going and focusing

1245
00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:41,820
on this set of customers over here,

1246
00:52:41,820 --> 00:52:44,940
these different industries or these types of buyers.

1247
00:52:44,940 --> 00:52:46,540
You should be casting the net.

1248
00:52:46,540 --> 00:52:48,540
Like, why don't you go deep into channel,

1249
00:52:48,540 --> 00:52:50,140
even though you've been doing a direct

1250
00:52:50,140 --> 00:52:53,060
go to market strategy thus far, like layer into this.

1251
00:52:53,060 --> 00:52:56,300
And typically my approach

1252
00:52:56,300 --> 00:52:58,340
and what I find with most of my customers is like,

1253
00:52:58,340 --> 00:53:00,220
let's laser in on what you already have.

1254
00:53:00,220 --> 00:53:01,700
Like what's the core of your business?

1255
00:53:01,700 --> 00:53:03,980
Like, if we look at the bow tie funnel, right?

1256
00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:06,540
Let's look at the post purchase,

1257
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:08,420
right hand side of the bow tie.

1258
00:53:08,420 --> 00:53:10,740
And let's really dig deeply into

1259
00:53:11,860 --> 00:53:13,900
what has gotten you to this point

1260
00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:15,900
and what's scalable to this point.

1261
00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:18,100
And while it's fine to be opportunistic,

1262
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:22,140
most of those things are high risk, take a long time,

1263
00:53:22,140 --> 00:53:25,220
take much more money and resources

1264
00:53:25,220 --> 00:53:27,700
and people to do effectively.

1265
00:53:27,700 --> 00:53:29,260
And again, in my space,

1266
00:53:29,260 --> 00:53:30,940
I work with mostly bootstrap companies

1267
00:53:30,940 --> 00:53:35,060
where capital is always a concern and always thin.

1268
00:53:35,060 --> 00:53:38,460
Like you have to be able to find those quick wins

1269
00:53:38,460 --> 00:53:39,940
and start to build on those things

1270
00:53:39,940 --> 00:53:42,100
that produce profitability and cashflow

1271
00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:44,220
so that you can hopefully someday invest

1272
00:53:44,220 --> 00:53:46,620
in some more of the opportunistic things.

1273
00:53:46,620 --> 00:53:49,340
Every single, every client, every company I've ever worked

1274
00:53:49,340 --> 00:53:52,060
for, every client that I've ever had always has

1275
00:53:53,060 --> 00:53:57,700
a treasure chest within their existing customer base

1276
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:00,300
that they just haven't figured out how to quite optimize,

1277
00:54:00,300 --> 00:54:03,500
how to get more of it, how to dig deeply,

1278
00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:04,740
find more people like that,

1279
00:54:04,740 --> 00:54:06,820
ask those, like nurture those customers

1280
00:54:06,820 --> 00:54:08,300
for additional referrals, right?

1281
00:54:08,300 --> 00:54:10,580
Obviously, you know, lower customer acquisition costs

1282
00:54:10,580 --> 00:54:11,780
for that kind of thing.

1283
00:54:11,780 --> 00:54:15,220
Like dig deeply into the core of what you have

1284
00:54:15,220 --> 00:54:16,980
because your cheapest growth

1285
00:54:16,980 --> 00:54:19,140
and probably your most sustainable and scalable growth

1286
00:54:19,140 --> 00:54:21,980
probably already exists in terms of the answers

1287
00:54:21,980 --> 00:54:24,740
within the data and your existing customers.

1288
00:54:24,740 --> 00:54:27,420
It's fine to be, obviously you're always gonna have

1289
00:54:27,420 --> 00:54:30,380
to have some level of focus on net new acquisition

1290
00:54:30,380 --> 00:54:31,500
and net new logos and such,

1291
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:33,460
but usually you should be using what you already have

1292
00:54:33,460 --> 00:54:36,060
in terms of your core customer base to inform

1293
00:54:36,060 --> 00:54:38,900
how you should be going after your net new

1294
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:40,940
and starting to go into all these different other

1295
00:54:40,940 --> 00:54:44,140
like channel and new industries and new customer types.

1296
00:54:44,140 --> 00:54:45,780
And we're gonna start with this person in this way.

1297
00:54:45,780 --> 00:54:47,420
Like those are usually the things

1298
00:54:47,420 --> 00:54:48,780
that are gonna spread you so thin

1299
00:54:48,780 --> 00:54:53,660
that eventually you've got some painful days ahead of you.

1300
00:54:53,660 --> 00:54:56,380
I see a lot of people throw their vision out the window

1301
00:54:56,380 --> 00:54:58,740
versus, you know, cleaning the existing glasses off,

1302
00:54:58,740 --> 00:55:00,540
so to speak, and moving forward.

1303
00:55:00,540 --> 00:55:02,340
So if you wanna connect with Dave,

1304
00:55:02,340 --> 00:55:04,740
absolutely connect with him on LinkedIn.

1305
00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:08,100
We'll also drop in the show notes on the landing page,

1306
00:55:08,100 --> 00:55:09,820
the different links that you can go to

1307
00:55:09,820 --> 00:55:11,660
to access his information.

1308
00:55:11,660 --> 00:55:13,500
Dave, thanks for being on Vision Pros, man.

1309
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:15,580
Vision Pros, you have an excellent week.

1310
00:55:15,580 --> 00:55:17,620
And if you wanna apply to be on the show,

1311
00:55:17,620 --> 00:55:19,020
that's also available on the page.

1312
00:55:19,020 --> 00:55:21,140
We will see you on the next episode.

1313
00:55:21,140 --> 00:55:22,100
Take care, everybody.

1314
00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:23,580
Thanks, man. Thank you for being here today.

1315
00:55:23,580 --> 00:55:26,060
I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live.

1316
00:55:26,060 --> 00:55:28,700
I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions

1317
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:30,980
as these episodes continue to move forward.

1318
00:55:30,980 --> 00:55:32,700
This is gonna get more and more fun.

1319
00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:34,500
We'll have more and more engagement as well.

1320
00:55:34,500 --> 00:55:36,620
We'll invite people to participate in the show.

1321
00:55:36,620 --> 00:55:43,620
And thank you for giving us your time and attention.