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the why of product management.

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I had a career, I've had a career working

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in really large organizations that are matrixed,

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that have a command and control hierarchy.

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And it can be really tough to get stuff done

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because you're removed from the customers,

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from the problem statement and have not one, not two,

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you might have a half dozen, if not more,

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different stakeholders and each one

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represents their own tribe of people.

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And you have to convince all of them to get on board.

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And it can take a lot out of people to be that persuasive

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to, and so your message doesn't attenuate.

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So you have a strong point of view or perspective

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and you want to convince and persuade not just one person,

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but this team of people that reports to that person

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for why your idea is the good idea

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and why they should essentially drop

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what they're doing right now and do what you say,

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essentially.

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And the act of trying to persuade large groups of people

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can expect, and this I think happened to a lot of people

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during the pandemic, you experience burnout

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because you might have clarity

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on why something is important,

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but the act of trying to convince large groups of people,

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why it's important, you end up, you know,

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reducing your own internal, you know,

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mental strength, physical strength

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to try to get to that persuasive point.

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And so I started thinking,

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I had the opportunity to think more deeply around

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what's the purpose, why are we trying to do this?

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How do we go about communicating and collaborating

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across large teams and also kind of deep dive back

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into the history of product management

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and how it developed as a function inside, you know,

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venture capital backed startups, that entire ecosystem,

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the language and cultural mental models

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that kind of got grew out of it

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and got adapted into large corporates,

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which aren't necessarily-

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When you're talking about large companies,

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you're talking about your experience at like American Express,

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JP Morgan, Accenture and AIG,

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those style of companies, correct?

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Companies that have more, and I think I've actually,

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yes, those are all examples of really large corporates.

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Those are all examples of-

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That's a lot of minds to move.

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It's also, those are, that's a fortune 100,

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fortune 500 kind of mindset

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is when you have essentially thousands of employees.

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And yes, it is a lot of minds to move.

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And each one of those is built up

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of various tribes and factions.

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So what level of company entry level, you know,

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is this conversation today gonna be relevant to?

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So I think it's relevant to,

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I think it's relevant to anybody

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that is trying to change minds in any company

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of more than a thousand people.

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More than a thousand people.

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More than a thousand.

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You think that less than a thousand,

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not as critical.

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It is, not as, no,

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I'm not gonna say it's not as critical.

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I think that because of the size and scale

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of the organization,

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most companies in the United States are,

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most small businesses,

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which is the backbone of the American economy,

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is less than 200 employees.

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And so when you get above a thousand

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on the scale of human coordination, you're huge.

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And so anything above a thousand employees,

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you're beyond more than 150 people

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is how many names and faces that we have

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from an evolutionary perspective,

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this is the Dunbar number of the number of people

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that we can keep in contact with

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and maintain sanity, essentially.

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So when you're above a thousand people,

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you're already beyond,

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your orders of magnitude beyond the Dunbar number

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of the number of names and faces in the organization

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that you actually keep in contact with.

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And so you're realistically only talking

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to maximum probably 150 people,

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but your organization is much larger than that.

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And so being able to deep dive

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or what I call like spearfish into your organization

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and contact people who are,

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and be able to mind, you know,

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Vulcan mind meld with somebody who has fingers on keyboard

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or knows the customer or knows the problem statement,

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they're a subject matter expert in that specific space.

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And being on specific go to that person

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because that person's boss or that person's boss's boss,

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that person's boss's boss's boss is orders of,

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or is layers removed from the actual expertise

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or the problem or the knowledge space.

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And so they're getting information filtered up to them

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or down to them, depending on how you view the org chart

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or tree.

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Sure.

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And so-

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Repositions, I mean, really, who cares?

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Oh, screw you.

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Well, I mean, I, so something that's come very,

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I've realized there's something that's natural.

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I'm gonna point you in a new direction.

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So the smaller companies, you know,

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anybody who's got less than 200 employees,

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is this like an ultra secret sauce

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that they really need to be preparing for now?

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Or again, is it, you know,

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and are we gonna dive into that today?

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Or is this gonna be more for those

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who are at the thousand person level?

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I think, well, so if you're less than a thousand people

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and you want to grow,

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I think it's extremely important to be prepared yourself,

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you know, emotionally.

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And then the people that you bring into the organization for,

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because it's a lot more involved

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and takes more effort to course correct

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people's mental models in your culture

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after they've already been brought in

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and after you already at that size,

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than it is to take, to address that challenge earlier on.

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It takes less effort-

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If you just challenge the culture in one direction,

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then getting everybody who's already bought

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into that culture,

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shifted to a new one can be a catastrophe.

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I've been there many times in startups.

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So, you're absolutely right on that.

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So what's the biggest secret?

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I think-

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All right, welcome in to Vision Pros Live.

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With Jackson Calame, I'm your show host.

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We'll be doing interviews for visionary entrepreneurs

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and guest leaders who are building

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fantastic visions out there.

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Hey, what's up everybody?

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Welcome in to another episode of Vision Pros Live.

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I'm your show host, Jackson Calame,

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founder and CEO of First Class Business.

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I'm excited to be discussing company growth and cultures

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and being able to dive into your virtues ruthlessly

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as a leader and lead people.

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And really I would say our world has become

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quite the fragile world when it comes to

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dealing with individuals and conflict and all that.

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So, Sam's style and his background

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and what he's been able to do with massive companies,

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I know it applies tremendously to the startup world.

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We were just talking right before the intro about

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how if you establish a certain type of culture

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around dozens of human beings,

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while you're small, when the day comes

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where you have to shift to an entire new mentality of growth,

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it can be very jarring and disrupting.

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It can cause great organizations to crumble.

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There are so many organizations that do not

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know how to survive the levels of scale and growth.

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And if you haven't heard of the seven figure desert,

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there's a reason why some coaches out there

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call it just that.

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It is not easy to grow and scale

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no matter what stage of business you are at.

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So before we dive in with Sam,

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I always want to give a shout out to our sponsors.

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ColdClick is what we use for our LinkedIn automation.

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I highly recommend the software.

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I also recommend making sure that your messaging is on point

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as you go into using a tool like this.

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Now, I wanted to say before you go into it,

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that's often not possible.

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What we need to do is make sure that we're paying attention

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to how our audience responds to our messaging.

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And there's what's called lead indicators

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that help us understand is our messaging attracting people

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in the right way, with the right emotion,

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with the right level of excitement.

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You can actually over-attract people in the beginning, too.

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Hello, clickbait, for instance.

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So make sure that you're getting great advice

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and consulting with the right marketing companies

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as you get ready to use such a tool.

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But also, don't let that hold you back from getting

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in front of more people.

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If you've got a vision, you need to get other people involved

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in your vision in order to be able to move it forward.

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It's likely not something you'll do by yourself.

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Then there's simply fast websites.

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And that's somebody whose vision caught my attention.

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I wish I had found something like Shane years and years ago

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when I was starting my website.

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So I actually don't know how good he is at what he does.

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But what I do know is that if I had found him

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when I was in the beginning of launching my website,

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I probably would have paid him right away and said, OK, $179.

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Go ahead and launch my website.

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Let me know what forms you need.

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And I would have just gone forward with that.

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Because when you're getting started,

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it's so easy to get distracted because you have a million

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things that you need to do.

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And the website, it's not the most important one.

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No matter what people tell you or make

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you want to think about what you should be doing,

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you do need to get a website launched.

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And then from there, you need to focus

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on producing profitable results, not getting busy.

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Busy is broke.

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Production is profitable.

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All right, last tip for the day on those matters.

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Now let's go to the water project.

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The water project, many of us just celebrated Thanksgiving.

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Happy Thanksgiving to all of you.

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I hope you at least take the opportunity

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to say thank you to people in your lives,

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even if you don't celebrate it.

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In this case, I am grateful for the water

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that I have access to.

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And I would really, really appreciate it

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if you would spread the word for the water project,

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or perhaps a different cause of your choice.

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The reason why I like the water project

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is because I can see the people whose lives I'm affecting

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thanks to the way that they manage these campaigns.

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So I can choose which community I give back to.

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And then I can see them either build the Sand Dam

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or the Boer Hole Well, as they're called respectively,

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for the different communities that they're serving.

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And then it also makes it really easy

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to imagine the types of effect that whatever I gave

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is going to provide to the generations that are coming

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after these individuals.

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We have the opportunity to help millions.

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If not billions of people in the world,

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this is one of my core causes of choice to support.

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So if you have the opportunity to share it, please do so.

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If you have the opportunity to give back,

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then don't hesitate to go in there and make your contribution.

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And we appreciate you all.

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So with that said, let me pull up Sam's background a little bit

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before I bring him on stage.

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He is from San Diego, California,

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which I call paradise.

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I'm a huge fan of that area of the world.

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If you haven't been, definitely go check out La Jolla sometime.

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And George's, I think it's called George's.

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There's a restaurant right there over the bay

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that is absolutely amazing.

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Anyway, enough plugs for today.

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15 plus years of experience in product strategy and execution

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and helping companies like American Express and JP Morgan

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and Accenture.

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His background is extensive.

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We became friends quite quickly.

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And also having studied in Mexico City

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means that we get to connect on my personal project

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a little bit for Oportunidades de Trabajo para Latinos.

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So we'll have some fun with that, perhaps not on the show.

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But I bet you'll see Sam and I do several things together

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00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,200
over the years to come.

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The reason why I again wanted to bring him onto this show

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is because I know that companies that

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are struggling with articulating their vision

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and struggling to establish great cultures are, in essence,

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not doomed to failure.

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But it's pretty close.

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The success rates aren't high, my friends.

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So let's bring Sam on.

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Let's pick his brain, and let's dive

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in his vision for company success.

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Sam, thanks for being here today, man.

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Jackson, thank you for having me on.

283
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:21,840
I appreciate it.

284
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:22,760
Absolutely.

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So beyond my feeble attempts to make sure

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that people knew who should be listening and why they should

287
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,120
be listening to you, I'd love for you to just mic drop this

288
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:33,400
a little bit.

289
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,760
Again, who should be listening from your perspective

290
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,600
and why should they listen to you?

291
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So I think the critical aspect for entrepreneurs, founders,

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00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,000
product managers in the course of defining a problem

293
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statement and then building a solution for that problem

294
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is you first have to know yourself.

295
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What are your own internal motivations?

296
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What drives you?

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What is your why for trying to solve said problem?

298
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And earlier, we were talking about what's

299
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the challenge that growing organizations have,

300
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,400
especially when they get to some kind of S-curve limit

301
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,160
where they get to one point and then they've flattened out.

302
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,920
And it takes a lot of effort, time, and energy

303
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,440
to change culture at that point if you didn't pay attention

304
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:25,120
to it before.

305
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,440
And culture comes from the word cult.

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00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,440
It's the root of the word.

307
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And it is the way we do things around here.

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It's in the water.

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It's in the air.

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It's how we operate.

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It's how we communicate, how we collaborate.

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It's our definition of normal right now.

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And I think it's really important to understand

314
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,080
that culture is constantly changing, especially

315
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,200
in organizations that are growing, that are going

316
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:59,920
through a tough patch, are trying to re-stabilize whenever

317
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you have team members leave.

318
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,480
One way of my one kind of shorthand

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00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,960
that I've used to describe that sense of instability

320
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,600
that organizations can have is that culture changes

321
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,440
one funeral at a time or with every birth.

322
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:22,080
And so when you have an org chart or a team that

323
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,640
has a critical person leave, now you have a vacuum.

324
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,200
And people are trying to understand,

325
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,280
what do we do now before somebody else used to do that job?

326
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,040
And now what do we do now?

327
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:36,800
What's the normal now?

328
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,400
And what you're experiencing is culture change in that point.

329
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,280
And so if you weren't paying attention

330
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,720
to the definition of normal or that person's personality

331
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,280
defined normal up until now, you're going to have a change.

332
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,200
And so an antifragile culture, an antifragile way of being

333
00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,920
is one that responds positively to change.

334
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,440
And so whenever it is stressed, for example,

335
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,680
our immune system is an example of an antifragile structure,

336
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,560
an antifragile system where it has

337
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,480
to be stressed in order for it to get stronger.

338
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,320
Another example is stand-up comedy.

339
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,600
You have to get on stage, and you have to get booed off

340
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:21,800
before you get better.

341
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,400
You have to bomb first.

342
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,760
And so that is an example of change happening.

343
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,800
Those are examples of change happening in real time.

344
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,200
Our systems, they get stronger by being stressed.

345
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,040
And so organizational culture is another example of that,

346
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,680
where if it doesn't get stronger as a result of change,

347
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,000
it will just collapse on itself.

348
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,720
And for founders, entrepreneurs, or product managers

349
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,240
that are trying to build a strong culture,

350
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,080
it's important to know what are your own issues?

351
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,760
What do you have that you haven't thought about?

352
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,120
What are your unprocessed thoughts and feelings and emotions

353
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,280
that you need to think about?

354
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,880
And it's really important to know yourself.

355
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,480
And what do you bring to the table in order to address gaps?

356
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,840
Because you are not going to be able to do everything.

357
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,360
The objective of growing an organization

358
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,120
is to be able to find either generals or specialists

359
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,600
who can work on your team to solve problems with you.

360
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,080
Startups or companies that are larger than 1,000 employees,

361
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,640
we're talking about team-based organizations

362
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,360
that need to collaborate and communicate

363
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,280
in order to get anything done.

364
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,840
And if you have a whole bunch of people

365
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,760
who don't know anything about themselves,

366
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,120
don't know anything about the problem statement,

367
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,960
and are just executing, then you get a bunch of pirates

368
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,440
that happen to be on the same ship.

369
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:47,320
And then you basically get a culture of piracy,

370
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,960
which if that's what you're going for, keep doing that.

371
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,720
Don't change anything.

372
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,160
But if your objective is to have a healthy organization,

373
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,600
to have a healthy sense of collaboration

374
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,320
where there's open lines of communication

375
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,200
and you're able to collaborate

376
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,080
around a specific performance challenge

377
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,000
and address that in a healthy way,

378
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,520
you will, your culture will change

379
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:13,800
and you will experience growth

380
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,280
because you're trying to solve this problem in a healthy way.

381
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,920
And from my experience, especially in large organizations,

382
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,720
is that the culture tends to be

383
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,000
just the way we do things around here now.

384
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,440
And from a management and a leadership perspective,

385
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,440
specifically, the status quo isn't great, it's not okay.

386
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,480
This is why we're trying to change.

387
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,360
This is why you're here, is to try and change the culture.

388
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:44,000
And so selecting for it during the interview process

389
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,160
is why culture fit is a thing.

390
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,640
Selecting for it to the interview process,

391
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,440
but then also putting an expectation on people

392
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,560
where I don't want things to stay the same.

393
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,600
In 18 months from now, if everything is exactly the same

394
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,920
it was when we started, we have failed.

395
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,760
And from a startup perspective, a founder perspective

396
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,080
or a large corporate perspective,

397
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,960
I deeply believe that change management is continuous.

398
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,480
You're constantly trying to change.

399
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,760
Status quo is death, is where you've just stopped.

400
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,040
And it means that you know less about yourself,

401
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,160
you know less about your team,

402
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:21,360
you know less about your customers,

403
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:22,840
you know less about the market

404
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,080
because you stopped learning and stopped growing.

405
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,040
And this is kind of part of the growth mindset.

406
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,200
I think people that are founders,

407
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,480
people that are entrepreneurs or real product managers

408
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,480
tend to have an entrepreneurial mindset.

409
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,320
They're kind of wired that way.

410
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,080
But convincing and persuading a bunch of other people

411
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,840
about your vision or the problem that you can identify

412
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,560
and that you can see in getting a bunch of other people

413
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,520
on board to that vision, that takes effort, that takes energy.

414
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,080
And what I've noticed over the past

415
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,560
at least three years or so,

416
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,120
is it can take a lot more effort and energy

417
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:02,120
to convince a small army of people essentially,

418
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:06,040
to be able to get on board with your vision and your idea.

419
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,120
And so that's why I think that

420
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,400
having a positive energy is important,

421
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,280
but being critical about yourself

422
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:15,720
and about the people around you

423
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,440
and the problem you're trying to solve

424
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,400
is key to growth, is key to an anti-fragile culture.

425
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,120
And it's key to change management,

426
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:26,640
it's key to product management, it's key to growth.

427
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,480
Absolutely.

428
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,400
So what would you define as your vision

429
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,720
for those that you serve?

430
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,760
I am trying to make things less worse.

431
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,120
Make things less worse.

432
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:39,280
Yes. Okay.

433
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,600
Because so I've noticed about myself

434
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,200
and I think there's other people like this

435
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,240
who are attracted to what I call wicked problems.

436
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,560
So a wicked problem is one in which there is a,

437
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:50,960
it's a complicated problem

438
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,920
and the only answer is a complicated solution.

439
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,520
There is no simple solution for a complicated problem.

440
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,640
And that's the definition of a wicked problem.

441
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,280
You can't necessarily solve wicked problems.

442
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,080
You can make them less worse.

443
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:12,040
So this can be your go-to-market from a sales cycle,

444
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,640
it could be from a legal or compliance perspective,

445
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,760
it could be tech debt from a technology perspective.

446
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,360
These kind of evolved to be the way they were

447
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:23,200
because of culture.

448
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,720
We decided this was okay or normal for us now

449
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,320
at some point in time.

450
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,800
There are trade-offs and decisions that were made.

451
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,760
And so now these, we've accumulated kind of

452
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,920
decisions essentially.

453
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,360
And so now we're stuck.

454
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:44,120
We're not stuck, but we're slower than we were earlier

455
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:45,800
in our decision-making process.

456
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,120
And so in order to help,

457
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:54,840
we can't solve said problem, but we can make it less worse.

458
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,440
And so that changes, that involves change in our own mindset

459
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,280
and how we think of the world

460
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,720
and what is our own place in it and what problem,

461
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,240
what is a specific problem that we think

462
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,840
we're trying to solve?

463
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,080
Because I think in many cases what we have

464
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,320
are multiple root causes to problems.

465
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,640
And we try to articulate a point solution

466
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,240
for one specific root cause

467
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,720
and kind of ignore the fact

468
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,920
that there might be other root causes involved

469
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,240
or choose to de-prioritize those other root causes.

470
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,080
And then we execute on a point solution.

471
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,200
We need to have a more effective go-to-market.

472
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,840
So we're gonna put a new CRO,

473
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,600
head of sales is gonna get hired

474
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,000
and they're gonna bring their Rolodex,

475
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,040
which is a term that most people haven't even seen

476
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,760
in Rolodex in 30 years.

477
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:43,840
We're gonna bring them on

478
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,280
and then they're gonna execute on the Rolodex

479
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,320
and they're gonna solve the problem for us.

480
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,160
And then it turns out that your client success team

481
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,760
or your technology team or your operations team

482
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,880
has other issues that were unrelated

483
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:01,920
to your stagnating growth

484
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,200
or were related to your stagnating growth,

485
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,400
but you believed that just a new salesperson

486
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,440
with a new Rolodex was gonna solve that one solution

487
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,880
or be a point solution for that problem.

488
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,120
And it involves taking a more holistic kind of look

489
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:19,000
at your organization, your team,

490
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,880
the product or service that you're offering,

491
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,600
the market that you're competing in.

492
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,360
What are, I mean, AI is gonna be this thing

493
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,800
for the next few years when we all kind of grapple with?

494
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:28,720
A lot of change.

495
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:29,560
There's gonna be a lot of change.

496
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,720
And so an anti-fragile organization is one

497
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,440
that is trying to be positive,

498
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,560
but also being critical and not feeling bad

499
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,400
about being critical.

500
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,200
And I say in the way my shorthand for that

501
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,840
is joyful and ruthless.

502
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,760
You can be joyful, we should be joyful,

503
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,320
but we should also be ruthless.

504
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,380
And people, the term ruthless tends to have

505
00:22:50,380 --> 00:22:52,960
this negative connotation around it.

506
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,920
And I think that that's actually not healthy or good

507
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,440
because the root word of the word ruthless

508
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,880
comes from Ruth or rue, which means to feel bad.

509
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,520
So if you are ruthless, you don't feel bad.

510
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,920
You should not feel bad about taking into account

511
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,160
the tech debt from an engineering perspective.

512
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,520
You should not feel bad about taking into contracts

513
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,480
from a legal perspective.

514
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,000
You should not feel bad about taking into the fact

515
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,520
that this person's Rolodex does not,

516
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,600
the end all be all solution for growth.

517
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,120
So taking into account all the variables

518
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:30,480
shouldn't make you feel bad.

519
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,960
It makes you ruthless.

520
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,200
And so that being joyful and ruthless at the same time,

521
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:40,040
I think is important to build a future proof,

522
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:41,280
anti-fragile organization.

523
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,200
It's huge.

524
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,760
Entrepreneurs are struggling tremendously

525
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,900
with that, small business owners even further.

526
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:47,640
There's a difference between the two

527
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,720
for those of you who are listening.

528
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,280
And it's, they're your blind spots

529
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,320
and they're your limiting mindsets in many respects.

530
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,720
So we're gonna dive into that further in just a little bit,

531
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,360
but Sam, what's your vision for you,

532
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,480
for yourself over the next,

533
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,640
you feel free to define how long that goes.

534
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,280
So my vision is, as I learned this term

535
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,360
relatively recently about sentinel intelligence.

536
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:14,240
And it is about, it can be an aspect

537
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,800
of kind of seeing the writing on the wall

538
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,280
or from a way to kind of adapt that Wayne Gretzky quote,

539
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,040
like where the puck is going, skate to there.

540
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,960
My vision is about trying to identify a bunch of different,

541
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,440
where a bunch of, how a bunch of different trends

542
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,280
are affecting each other.

543
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:33,880
And because a lot of there's a lot,

544
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,720
I noticed about myself that I'm a generalist.

545
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,880
And so as a generalist, I rely on specialists.

546
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,360
Specialists know and are subject matter experts

547
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,040
in their very specific niche area.

548
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,480
And they may not have the perspective to see

549
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,200
how change is affecting other areas.

550
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,400
But as a systems thinker, they're related to each other.

551
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,560
They have knock-on effects on each other.

552
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,400
So how does technology affect law,

553
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,200
affects human capital management,

554
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,480
affects product management,

555
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,040
affects a number of different, affects sales.

556
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,840
These are a bunch of like related areas

557
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,920
in companies, small or large,

558
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,120
where you have specific people

559
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,840
who have a very niche specialized vision.

560
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,800
And my own perspective and my vision is,

561
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,120
we need to connect these.

562
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:27,000
We need to connect these different perspectives

563
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,720
that have value,

564
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,280
maybe don't have what they're lacking as other perspective.

565
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,720
And a big part about it is speaking to people's ego.

566
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:37,680
What is the thing,

567
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,680
why do they feel that they know so much?

568
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,560
Or why do they feel that what's so important?

569
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,480
What's the thing that they are still holding onto

570
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,520
a little bit that's affecting growth?

571
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,360
And so that's my specific kind of view

572
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,080
is promoting more systems thinking

573
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,680
in terms of how we help companies grow.

574
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,560
And maintain for that matter.

575
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,160
Okay, this Sentinel Intelligence,

576
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,640
I'm glad that came up as well.

577
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,280
Generalist versus specialist, how they work together.

578
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,960
This gives me a lot of different alleyways

579
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,760
that I wanna explore.

580
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,760
Before we dive into any of those aspects of culture,

581
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,400
what would you say your worst leadership experience

582
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,400
ever has been?

583
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,720
There's so many.

584
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:21,560
Yeah.

585
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,080
You have to have, I don't-

586
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,760
I would expect that from the guy who said,

587
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,200
we make things less worse.

588
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,200
I would expect that, good for you.

589
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,920
I feel like you have to have suboptimal experiences

590
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,800
in order to get better.

591
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,720
So if you don't have crappy ones,

592
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,040
I don't know what you were doing.

593
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,560
Like you had no friction or struggle.

594
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:41,400
Mediocrity.

595
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,320
Yeah, like you had to have crappy experiences.

596
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,600
So there's plenty to select from.

597
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,600
I would say from my perspective,

598
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,600
one of the more crappy ones was when I realized

599
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,160
that I was on an island from a management perspective,

600
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:06,160
being new to a role, being recruited into a role

601
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,760
where you expect that somebody wants you to be there.

602
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,400
They've pulled you in and then you're like,

603
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,920
why do you think I'm not being supported there?

604
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,480
They've pulled you in and then you get put into role

605
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:21,920
where you are a people manager.

606
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,200
You have people reporting into you.

607
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,680
And then you have this literally day to night realization

608
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,720
that you are not being supported yourself.

609
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,000
And so now you have people manager,

610
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,880
people who are relying on you, you are their manager,

611
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,040
but then you don't have that support yourself.

612
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,600
And then you realize, oh, maybe the reason I feel this way,

613
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,440
maybe I'm having this leadership experience

614
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,600
is because that leader is not being supported themselves.

615
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,840
And so it ends up being this like multiple layers

616
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,440
where you get this like dawning realization,

617
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,440
like, oh my Lord, like not only am I not being supported,

618
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,840
they're not being supported.

619
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,040
So how deep does this lack of support go?

620
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,840
And so at that point it was, I say it was the worst

621
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,240
and most of anybody's worst leadership experience

622
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,920
is gonna be a character revealing experience.

623
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,040
And it where it shows you about yourself, who are you?

624
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,320
It reveals things to you about yourself.

625
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,880
Because the objective of leadership is to create

626
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,120
and generate more leaders.

627
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:28,600
And if you, and this specific case is where I realized

628
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,960
that I wasn't being supported,

629
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,400
if I'm not being supported, how am I gonna do my job,

630
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:34,800
which is to create more leadership?

631
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,960
How am I gonna be able to create this sense of support,

632
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,960
belonging, inclusion, confidence essentially

633
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,120
to other people to go execute and do their job

634
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,920
if the person who I'm reporting into

635
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,720
is unable to give that to me

636
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,280
because whoever they're reporting into

637
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,720
is unable to give it to them.

638
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,120
Like this is gonna, I had to kind of pull together myself

639
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:03,120
first in order to be able to execute in that particular case.

640
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,400
But that was my worst leadership experience.

641
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,280
There's a series of books.

642
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,000
They're wrapped up in there.

643
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,880
That's a really, and I like what you said.

644
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,400
You said your worst leadership experience

645
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,880
is a character building experience for you.

646
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,600
And the sooner we can recognize that,

647
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,800
the sooner we can pivot to seeing the opportunity at hand.

648
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,400
You know, if we fight against that, we may not learn,

649
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,920
we may not learn anything from the experience,

650
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,920
but being able to do so is probably the option

651
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:36,760
that we all want.

652
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:37,720
So just ask yourself,

653
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,160
if you're in one of those experiences right now,

654
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,360
how is this building my character?

655
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,760
How can I use this to build myself and my team up?

656
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:46,640
So good for you.

657
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,760
Thank you for that.

658
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,840
What's your best leadership experience look like?

659
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,760
I mean, I get with almost the inverse of that.

660
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,760
It's where I was in a culture where

661
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,960
there was a strong sense of customer centricity,

662
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,960
where there was a culture of literally every Friday afternoon,

663
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,440
sitting around a conference room

664
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,520
and listening to customer calls.

665
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,240
Listening to specifically,

666
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,920
because from a product management perspective,

667
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,280
there's this term that gets thrown around,

668
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,640
which is pain point.

669
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,440
You're trying to address a pain point.

670
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,560
Pain is a sensation that causes an emotion.

671
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,560
And so it's one thing to listen to a customer transcript

672
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,240
of a call.

673
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,200
It's an entirely different experience

674
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,000
to listen to the cringe of the person

675
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,480
on both sides of this conversation,

676
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,800
where neither one is happy about the situation

677
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,000
or how they got into it,

678
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,800
but you're listening to the pain.

679
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,520
And so the culture of an organizational leadership culture

680
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,600
that literally referred to managers as leaders.

681
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,480
So your boss was not your boss, they were your leader.

682
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,880
And it's the semantic difference between saying,

683
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,080
who's your boss, or saying, who's your leader?

684
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,480
Because it's a chasm of difference

685
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,360
between what those two words mean.

686
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,680
And so from a culture that literally referred

687
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:17,560
to managers and leaders,

688
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,280
it was a culture where you had senior people

689
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,120
also listening into these calls to hear the pain points

690
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,600
and the cringe from customers firsthand.

691
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,800
Because once you internalize that pain point,

692
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,920
it's almost impossible to get in front of that,

693
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,240
to stop it.

694
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,400
Because now I know this pain, I felt this pain,

695
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,080
I heard this pain, and we are going to prioritize a solution

696
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,760
to address this, all of us together,

697
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,320
because I'm gonna make you listen to this too.

698
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,520
So that kind of leadership experience where you felt

699
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,920
that the end, the top of this org chart tree

700
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,960
was the customer, I think was one of my,

701
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,240
one of the best leadership experiences I've had.

702
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,720
I'm gonna challenge you on Ruthlessness, right?

703
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,920
On this and joyfully, on this reality that

704
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,440
there's a difference between boss and leader.

705
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,160
And I wanted, I'm excited about what your response is

706
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,760
because you also know Mexican Spanish, you know?

707
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,400
And we both speak Spanish fluently, me to some degree.

708
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,680
But I've noticed that the word jefe, boss,

709
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,240
has a very different connotation and feel to it

710
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:32,240
for my Colombians, my Peruvians, my Argentinian friends,

711
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,840
my people from Mexico, and we as a melting pot

712
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,520
here in America, right?

713
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,400
We've got all of this language introduction coming in.

714
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,960
Semantics, there's people who are so big

715
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,520
into semantics battles, et cetera.

716
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:48,880
What am I getting at?

717
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,520
Our need to be able to be ruthless, joyful,

718
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,680
not cave, and yet still be able to express ourselves

719
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,080
while respecting others.

720
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,400
That whole thing is spinning faster and faster every year.

721
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,080
What's going on with that?

722
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,280
Because I don't think that, again,

723
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,680
and maybe I'm wrong in this.

724
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,640
I wanna hear what your perspective is.

725
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,960
My Latinos love the word boss.

726
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,000
And I find it strange,

727
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,760
because I'm trying, I don't wanna use that word.

728
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,600
Like that's an F word.

729
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:19,440
It's funny that you say that

730
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,200
because there's a brother-in-law of mine here

731
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,800
in San Diego uses the word patron.

732
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:26,640
Yes.

733
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,400
And I think it's also regional differences

734
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,440
within Mexico, et cetera,

735
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,840
or within Latin America for that reason.

736
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,720
But the translation for patron is patron.

737
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,560
So they're essentially your boss is sponsoring you

738
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,360
to do this thing that they want you to do.

739
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,600
So when you're reporting into somebody,

740
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,160
as they're your jefe, your boss, your patron,

741
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,840
they're giving you some leeway.

742
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,960
They should be giving you some leeway.

743
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:57,800
They're your sponsor.

744
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,760
I'm giving you some authority.

745
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,600
Well, I had to look it up real quick

746
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:03,440
because I was like, wait a second.

747
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,640
For restaurants, that's a customer.

748
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,480
Right.

749
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,800
So it's the opposite.

750
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:08,640
Right.

751
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,040
Okay, go ahead, hit this.

752
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:15,040
I think there's lots of things culturally

753
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,040
and language mixed up into these relationships.

754
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:23,040
And I think it ties back to how people view org charts

755
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,200
because I turn org charts upside down

756
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,200
and I turn into an org tree where your leader

757
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,000
or your boss or manager is supporting

758
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:33,840
a bunch of people above you.

759
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,040
Yeah, the mantle's on their shoulders.

760
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:35,880
It's on there.

761
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,880
And a lot of people who aspire to be the boss

762
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,080
and wanna be the jefe,

763
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:47,080
they tend to stick with the boss

764
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,880
and stick with the traditional view of an org chart

765
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,120
which has the boss on top.

766
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,980
And I think if you turn the org chart upside down,

767
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,120
it kind of internalizes that,

768
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,680
oh, you are actually supporting everybody above you.

769
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,120
And so if you are not supporting them,

770
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,320
then it's gonna make their job even harder to do.

771
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,240
So what is your job?

772
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:14,960
Your job is to be the support, essentially.

773
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,080
And so, yeah, I think there's some differences

774
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,520
between how the languages are used,

775
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,200
but I think it's from almost,

776
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,340
from a visualization perspective

777
00:35:24,340 --> 00:35:27,600
of how you look at yourself in the organization itself

778
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,040
is that if you look at the CEOs,

779
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,800
like the root of this tree,

780
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,360
and then you get various branches going up,

781
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:35,480
that the top of this tree,

782
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,520
the leaves are doing the photosynthesis

783
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,280
and that's what keeps this tree alive.

784
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,120
That's a play game.

785
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,080
It's the closest to the customers, yeah.

786
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,720
All right, game time.

787
00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,040
So we've got a hundred year old organization

788
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,280
that's had an org chart, right, forever.

789
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,760
You got two executives who don't care.

790
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,660
Like they like the org chart the way it is

791
00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:55,520
because it's always been that way.

792
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,740
And they know that the leaders

793
00:35:57,740 --> 00:35:59,080
are still supposed to support.

794
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,180
They're doing fine as a company

795
00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:02,760
because they do have good customer support and success.

796
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,320
Then you got two other executives of an equal level

797
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,500
that one, it shifted to an org tree.

798
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:10,840
When you have two votes on each side,

799
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,220
what the heck do you do, Sam?

800
00:36:12,220 --> 00:36:14,400
So I think, so I'm gonna have this,

801
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:15,520
you showed this earlier on the website,

802
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,640
but there's, do you want nice things?

803
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,040
Do these, do both of these two factions,

804
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,500
essentially these two tribes, they want nice things.

805
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:27,240
How badly do they want nice things, essentially?

806
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:28,920
That's the question you're asking

807
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,840
because it goes back to change.

808
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,760
How accepting are you of change?

809
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,600
And I have this quote on the website as well.

810
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,620
It's like, I think there's three reasons

811
00:36:40,620 --> 00:36:43,120
why we can't like, we don't like nice things.

812
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:44,600
Oh, I didn't realize that you translated.

813
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:45,800
That's interesting.

814
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,160
Oh, Cynthia, you have it in Spanish, but it's okay.

815
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:50,000
That was great.

816
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:50,840
I'm sorry about that.

817
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,600
But there's three reasons we don't,

818
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:55,840
we can't have nice things,

819
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,140
which is basically sunk cost, ego, and motivated reasoning.

820
00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:03,920
And so does this team, this is 100 year organization,

821
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,160
does it wanna grow?

822
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,320
How badly does it wanna grow?

823
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,440
And how much change is it willing to accept

824
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,480
in order to grow?

825
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,160
Which is the nice thing that they're saying that they want.

826
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,720
And so sunk cost is this fallacy

827
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:23,600
that the way that we've been doing things

828
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,800
is the best way that we can do things.

829
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,200
Ego is where we have built on top of sunk cost

830
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:30,600
because of the way we've been doing things

831
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,000
is the best way to do things.

832
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,440
That's just, it's on me.

833
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,600
It's how I operate.

834
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,800
I'm the one that doesn't wanna change.

835
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,280
And those first two things,

836
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,600
sunk cost and ego add up to motivated reasoning.

837
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,360
Now you have a really good reason

838
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:44,960
because of the way you've been doing things,

839
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,200
it makes sense to you is why we should not change,

840
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:49,120
essentially.

841
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,400
So between these two factions,

842
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,800
I think the question to ask is how badly do you wanna grow?

843
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,560
If the answer to the question is just a little bit,

844
00:37:58,560 --> 00:37:59,860
then don't change anything

845
00:37:59,860 --> 00:38:01,920
because then you'll just grow a little bit.

846
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,400
But if the answer to the question is I wanna grow a lot,

847
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,320
okay, well then you'll have to change a lot.

848
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,400
If you're saying that you wanna grow a lot

849
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,360
and not change at all,

850
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,240
then you're probably not gonna achieve nice things.

851
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:14,400
You're not gonna have nice things

852
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,520
or you're gonna struggle to try to obtain these nice things.

853
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:19,880
Yeah, absolutely.

854
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,360
Okay, that's fair.

855
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,180
We'll leave that where it's at

856
00:38:22,180 --> 00:38:24,000
because the hypothetical can go down

857
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,320
so many different rabbit holes anyway.

858
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,160
I wanna dive into what powerful lesson

859
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,080
kind of the visionary has learned from your experience.

860
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,680
If this is your final lesson

861
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,480
that you could ever share with people, what would it be?

862
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,600
I think it goes back to knowing yourself.

863
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,640
Study yourself and your own experience

864
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,080
and your own learnings

865
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,480
and understanding those.

866
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,040
People experience this fog of war

867
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,000
as they go through their professional careers.

868
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,820
And the reason for that is because when you're stressed,

869
00:39:00,820 --> 00:39:02,760
cortisol levels are elevated,

870
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,720
which inhibits memory retention.

871
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,480
And so when you're going through this suboptimal experience,

872
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,680
you're learning stuff,

873
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,200
but you're not remembering what you learned.

874
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,080
And so I think it's really important to go back

875
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,720
and even look at your own resume

876
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,180
and look at your earlier experience

877
00:39:22,180 --> 00:39:26,280
and try to articulate what did you actually learn

878
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,120
from that experience?

879
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,040
Because it could have been soft skills

880
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,720
and actually you're probably more likely

881
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:33,480
to have learned soft skills from that experience

882
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:34,840
than you did hard skills.

883
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,280
And so the lesson I think is to examine your own experience

884
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,360
and in your own fog of war throughout your career

885
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:44,820
in suboptimal environments

886
00:39:44,820 --> 00:39:47,720
that might've been toxic or unhealthy

887
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,040
because that's probably where you yourself learned

888
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:51,200
lots of things.

889
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,020
And you're experiencing knowledge blindness now

890
00:39:54,020 --> 00:39:56,080
about what you learned then.

891
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,200
And so it takes some unpacking

892
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,080
to be able in this concept of knowledge blindness

893
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,400
comes out of mental health and therapy,

894
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,480
but I think it's applicable to organizations as well

895
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,720
and people in companies

896
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:08,560
as people have grown their careers

897
00:40:09,540 --> 00:40:12,260
to examine their own professional experiences

898
00:40:12,260 --> 00:40:14,120
to better articulate what was the thing

899
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,840
that they actually learned from their own experience.

900
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,280
In order to be able to help other people

901
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,840
develop those skills

902
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,600
without it being toxic or healthy or suboptimal.

903
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,920
You want these people to learn these skills

904
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,920
without having to struggle.

905
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:28,760
Like you did.

906
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:30,640
That was awesome.

907
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:31,920
I'm gonna have to,

908
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,200
it's probably the first powerful lesson version

909
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,080
where I'm gonna have to go back and listen again

910
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,280
because it was so intellectually deep.

911
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,640
But at the same time,

912
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,680
you talked about the stress inhibiting memory retention

913
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,400
and running first-class business

914
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,280
and trying to run vision pros live

915
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:50,340
and all things that we're doing.

916
00:40:50,340 --> 00:40:55,340
I've noticed a tremendous dip in my memory.

917
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,760
Almost to a scary degree where I was like,

918
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,000
wow, this has been accelerated

919
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,640
as a result of the pandemic, by the way.

920
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,040
Everybody is actually low key stressed.

921
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,840
This is why three years kind of feels like it flew by

922
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,520
because everybody's just been low key stressed.

923
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,120
And so that's why you don't remember what happened last week

924
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:18,360
or last month or last year

925
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,420
or it feels like it just flew by.

926
00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:21,960
That's also a secondary reason.

927
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:24,400
It's helpful too.

928
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,960
It's that, again, I think it goes back to your concepts

929
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,520
of joyfulness and ruthlessness,

930
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,240
the ability and willingness to accept the good.

931
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:33,200
This is my definition of it,

932
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:34,880
but accepting the good in my life

933
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,320
while also recognizing the symptoms

934
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,480
for an opportunity to change and improve where I'm headed.

935
00:41:43,860 --> 00:41:48,720
You talked about, again, this concept of wicked problems,

936
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:50,520
making things less worse.

937
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,880
I know people can hear that

938
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,600
and just sound the alarm on negativity.

939
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,080
Like, what a negative guy.

940
00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:59,760
And I look at that,

941
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,300
and I mean, I look at the reality of the world,

942
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:05,120
96% of businesses fail within 10 years.

943
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,800
And that does not mean that 4% succeed.

944
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,740
That means that 4% survive.

945
00:42:10,620 --> 00:42:12,360
And out of that 4%,

946
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,600
the businesses that we would consider successful,

947
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,040
like you said, we have to look at the variables.

948
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,960
Do they have a balanced life?

949
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,700
Do they have time with their family?

950
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:24,120
Are they out of debt?

951
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,960
Do they have a six months cash reserve?

952
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:32,600
Even do they have all their basic first world needs met?

953
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,400
Well, I'm gonna coin that for what it is.

954
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,840
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

955
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,560
I think from a negativity perspective

956
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,380
is if you're a business,

957
00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:45,160
you're producing a product or a service

958
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,360
that is solving a problem or a challenge.

959
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:49,920
It's addressing a need.

960
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,400
If you are producing a product or service

961
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,400
that didn't solve any pain point or fix any need,

962
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,320
then why are they buying your product?

963
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,520
Like there is some existing thing

964
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,100
that's creating demand for you.

965
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:08,100
And so if you're saying that that existing demand itself

966
00:43:08,660 --> 00:43:10,760
is negative, okay, sure.

967
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,920
But you're essentially trying to make money

968
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,480
off that existing need or challenge.

969
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,680
And so that's the point of a bit,

970
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,760
a point of the, this is a Peter Drucker quote,

971
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,120
or maybe it's a Warren Buffett quote,

972
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,920
like the objective of a business is to create a customer

973
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,840
and it's marketing and it's a Peter Drucker quote,

974
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,280
it's a marketing and innovation.

975
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,820
Your product or service is innovating something

976
00:43:31,820 --> 00:43:34,160
to solve a problem.

977
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:35,240
If there was no problem,

978
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,960
then you wouldn't need to market or innovate anything.

979
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,280
And so accepting that there is something

980
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,400
that's suboptimal out there

981
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,320
and that's why you are the one to solve it.

982
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:45,140
I don't think that's negative.

983
00:43:45,140 --> 00:43:47,440
I think that's just the state of how businesses work.

984
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:48,280
Right, absolutely.

985
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:49,420
Well, and it's like,

986
00:43:49,420 --> 00:43:51,400
there's just a lot of challenges out there

987
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,720
that have a lot of great needs.

988
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,120
A lot of people who have a lot of great needs

989
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,720
and it's easy to try to put blinders on

990
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:01,040
and lose sight of it rather than realize that it's there.

991
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,440
I'm glad you quoted Peter Drucker.

992
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:03,720
Nobody's ever done that on the show.

993
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,580
And I think his book, Effective Executive,

994
00:44:06,580 --> 00:44:07,880
is one of the most overlooked books

995
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:08,960
of all time for business.

996
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:09,940
So well done.

997
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,840
Let's take some time to,

998
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,720
let's take the next few minutes to talk about

999
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:20,480
creating the anti-fragile organizational cultures.

1000
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:21,880
What does that take, Sam?

1001
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,700
You could just fire hoses for a little bit.

1002
00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:26,200
What are some of the high level aspects

1003
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,160
we should be looking at or dive deep?

1004
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,880
You're calm, kind of boxing you in the best I can.

1005
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,880
So I think there's this negative connotation

1006
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,440
around the word audit.

1007
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,720
But I think from a leadership perspective,

1008
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:47,200
it's important to self-examine essentially,

1009
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,480
like take stock of where you are today.

1010
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,160
There's a book my wife gifted me recently

1011
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:54,080
where the title is basically,

1012
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,520
What Got You Here Won't Get You There.

1013
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,760
And I think that applies to lots of companies,

1014
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,400
applies to startups, applies to product managers,

1015
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,740
entire product management function, frankly,

1016
00:45:05,740 --> 00:45:08,820
that what got product management here won't get us there,

1017
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,400
especially given the last 10 years of-

1018
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:14,840
You weren't sleeping on the couch the night

1019
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,200
she gave you that book.

1020
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,040
What were you?

1021
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,880
I'm just kidding.

1022
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,520
But I do think the concept is really important

1023
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,600
of taking stock and self-auditing,

1024
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,720
understanding what got you here won't get you there

1025
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:28,460
from a professional perspective.

1026
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,520
People who have maybe five, 10 years,

1027
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,880
15 years of experience have enough knowledge

1028
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,720
under their belt.

1029
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:40,560
They are relative experts in what they know how to do.

1030
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,280
And so, but really deep diving understanding

1031
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,120
what made you the way you are?

1032
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,680
How did you get to here?

1033
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,280
And what are you gonna need to change about yourself

1034
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,240
or your business or your culture

1035
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:53,960
in order to keep going further?

1036
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,200
You need to understand who you are,

1037
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:56,980
which is the phrase, know thyself.

1038
00:45:56,980 --> 00:45:58,180
Know yourself first.

1039
00:45:58,180 --> 00:46:00,040
You're gonna have to know yourself first

1040
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,440
if you have any hope of growing.

1041
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,120
I believe that's the effect of executives first chapter

1042
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,160
as well as know thyself.

1043
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,200
So, Wallace, that way to follow excellent leaders on that.

1044
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,080
I hope that more visionaries do just that.

1045
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,080
And that we learn to see these opportunities, audits.

1046
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,720
For instance, but I love that you also start that

1047
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:24,120
with a self-examination factor.

1048
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,680
You said that three times throughout the show.

1049
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,920
So I think that's something that all of us can look and say,

1050
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,240
okay, what are we auditing about ourself?

1051
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,900
Then turning to the opportunity to audit and optimize

1052
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,200
the rest of the culture and organization.

1053
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,920
And hopefully we have the diplomacy skills

1054
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,640
and to pull that off when we go there as well.

1055
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,200
Sam, this was an absolute pleasure.

1056
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,200
We will have a landing page put together

1057
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,240
with links to connect with Sam Vision Pros.

1058
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:52,420
That way you can afterwards.

1059
00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:55,040
If you have any questions or comments

1060
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,760
and you don't have the ability to go over there,

1061
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,660
just drop it on the social media channel

1062
00:46:58,660 --> 00:46:59,840
you're tuning in from.

1063
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,000
And we'll make sure to forward those.

1064
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,040
In addition, if you would like to be on the show,

1065
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,200
make sure to reach out, visionproslive.com

1066
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,600
has a link to be able to apply as a guest for the show.

1067
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,240
Sam, I'd love to have you back in the future.

1068
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:13,080
This was awesome.

1069
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,760
Do you have any final, anything else you want to give to us

1070
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,120
before we go on our way?

1071
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,120
Know yourself, be joyful, ruthless.

1072
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,840
And that is the key to building an anti-fragile system.

1073
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:28,520
Awesome, man.

1074
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:29,340
I appreciate you.

1075
00:47:29,340 --> 00:47:30,640
Vision Pros, have a fantastic week.

1076
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,160
We will see you on the next show.

1077
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:33,520
Thank you for being here today.

1078
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,000
I'm really happy that you tuned in to Vision Pros Live.

1079
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,640
I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions

1080
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,920
as these episodes continue to move forward.

1081
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,640
This is gonna get more and more fun.

1082
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,440
We'll have more and more engagement as well.

1083
00:47:44,440 --> 00:48:13,440
We'll invite people to participate in the show.