Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:00:00]: The struggle is how do I find how I fit into the world and how do I be myself and feel good about that and feel supported and bring my superpower into the world. And so it's really almost like having that self knowledge so that I can care for myself better, care for my clients better, and be a good advocate for curiosity. Regardless of who you are, I would describe myself as, I think first and foremost, perfect, professionally curious. So Lego Series Play is a methodology that was developed by two business professors in the 90s along with the LEGO group Bricks. It's familiar, it's fun, it brings everybody together. So you have the CEO and the intern, you have the technical and the non technical. You have the extrovert and the introvert, and you have the neurotypical and the neurodivergent. So everybody sort of has this level playing field. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:00:49]: What I have discovered recently is that I'm neurodivergent. I have adhd. And so there's also new research coming out looking at how, you know, we always talk about adhd, you know, the acronym deficit, you know, it's, it has, you know, negative connotations. But newer research coming out looking at how if you are neurodivergent, in particular in this case adhd, you are hyper curious. And so in that, in my talk, I talk about how I can't not be curious no matter what. And it's kind of saved me so many times when I didn't know the way forward. I just couldn't help myself to be curious. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:01:21]: Well, hello there. Welcome back to the Happy Healthy Hustle. My name is Dr. Christiane. I'm your host and I'm really thrilled. We have an amazing guest here today. Kate, why don't you introduce yourself? Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:01:34]: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And I would describe myself as, I think first and foremost professionally curious. So I have a PhD in Internet studies and cultural anthropology, which, you know, I think, you know, we spoke a bit earlier about your students. Your students probably would know what that is, but for the uninitiated, it basically means that you are trained to be very curious about humans and human culture and provide you with all sorts of different tools for investigating that and in practice in the everyday. I still teach at university, but I also am a Lego Serious Play certified facilitator, which we can get into what that is, but it's a great tool for curiosity. I am Also a past TEDx Pro speaker and coach. I write for the Business News, I'm an innovation columnist, and I also run a company supporting different leaders making a difference through things like LEGO serious play training and business coaching and speaker coaching. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:02:31]: Oh, beautiful. And of course our ears all perked up and we all became more curious to use that word when you mentioned the LEGO play. So of course I want to know more about this now, Kate, what does that mean? Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:02:48]: So LEGO Series play is a methodology that was developed by two business professors in the 90s along Lego Group. And it was originally designed as a tool for improving business outcomes, team building strategy. And it's basically using LEGO as a tool for not, not the usual way you do it, but more about metaphor and story. And it's incredibly powerful. But what makes it even more powerful is in 2010 they open sourced the method, which means that anybody can use it and remix it and adapt it. And so the community has really taken it and run with it and use it for all sorts of non business. And I created what's called Super Connect, which is sort of optimizing LEGO serious play for human connection and psychological safety and curious conversations. And it's a tool that I'm now teaching people globally to use in all sorts of different contexts. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:03:45]: And yeah, I love it because just it's incredibly transformative in terms of what the results that people can get from it. And my business partner and I are now taking a course from the Neufeld Institute, Gordon Neufeld's school on play and emotion. And we just love being able to bring in all of the, there's, I think, a groundswell now of research and interest in play that is really, we're starting to rediscover and remember that we need play as an important tool for being human. And I think there's a great connection there with curiosity as well, because I like to describe play as is, as doing curiosity. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:04:20]: I like that because sometimes we become so hard on ourselves that we don't want to look like we're just exploring without really knowing where this all goes. Where in reality, the best innovations in the world come from playing around and just exploring. And then all of a sudden you get into something and it's, you know, that's the beauty of it, that you're just having fun, you're exploring and you're letting your mind wander and you don't really know what the outcome is going to be because it's new grounds. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:04:51]: Exactly. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:04:52]: Yes, I, I love that and I think that Legos will always be in our household. One of the most important staples, I grew up with them, my children grew up with them. And I certainly think that there are so many unique opportunities for adults to continue using them, whether that's for play, exploration, or just being remembered that we all need to be curious at all times. So how would you describe your superpower, Kate, moving into our very famous question? Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:05:24]: Well, I would say it's probably not a surprise, given what we've been talking about, but it's. Curiosity is my superpower. Yes. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:05:31]: And just because I am curious, when did you see what you did there? When did you discover your superpower? How did that all come about? Was there a moment when you just realized, oh, my gosh, that's just me, or how did you figure that out? Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:05:48]: I would say my flagship keynote is, is all about curiosity and being fearlessly curious as the, the antidote to fear for innovation. And part of it is talking about that, that journey to be curious. And I do share my own journey. And it's, I wouldn't say it's discovering that I'm curious. It's more, I think, seeing it as a superpower. I think that's, I think it's something I've always been, and I think I've never really reflected on because, well, until I started sharing with other people. But it's something that is. Is part of who I am. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:06:22]: And I think I, what, what I have discovered recently, maybe two years ago, is that I'm neurodivergent. I have adhd. And so there's also new research coming out looking at how, you know, we always talk about adhd, you know, the acronym deficit, you know, it's, it has, you know, negative connotations. But newer research coming out looking at how if you are neurodivergent, in particular in this case adhd, you are hyper curious. And so in that, in my talk, I talk about how I can't not be curious no matter what. And it's kind of saved me so many times when I didn't know the way forward. I just couldn't help myself to be curious. It's really nice to see that that's now coming out in the research that that's going okay. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:07:01]: You know, there's challenges of being neurodivergent, but there's also superpowers that come with it. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:07:05]: Oh, this is beautiful. And it's so fitting with our past two episodes that we filmed on this podcast, the first episode being when you feel overwhelmed, especially moving into the fall season here in the United States and how you sometimes feel very frazzled and that maybe we can kind of funnel that frazzled energy and actually flipping the switch and using it More and just kickstarting, maybe new project in small steps in my petite practice, my signature move. And then we also had an episode where we interviewed a student that is actually creating a food product for neurodivergent customers. And what we really thought about was that that student discovered that he wished he would have had that food product himself when he was five years ago, when he was younger, which in innovation is always the very best ideal client. It's a problem you struggled with yourself, that you're creating something that you wish you would have had. And I think what you just outlined was in your talk and in your work, you're really using ADHD and neurodivergence also as that energy source for your creation, for your curiosity. And I totally agree with you. It's not negative at all. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:08:27]: In fact, there is some really amazing innovations that come if you just funnel your superpower correctly. So it's not really what is my superpower. It's more how do I use it and create something for the world that will change my little corner of the world? Yes. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:08:47]: And I think the challenge is that the world isn't made for being neurodivergent. So, you know, there are. It is. It is a challenge. You know, it's like, I. The best way I've heard it described is it's really easy to do something like write a new strategy plan or come up with a new product. But, you know, just folding your laundry and putting away the dishes can be the. Can be the hardest thing. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:09:09]: So it's. The things that are easy are hard, and the things that are hard are easy. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:09:13]: Yeah. And actually, yeah, that's why I. I went with the little corner of the world, because we can only do things that we can control in our area. And then we just hope that ripple effects will keep carrying it forward and that people become curious about what we are doing and we can share our outcome and our findings with them. So share with us a little bit of the struggles, maybe even the biggest struggle, as you see it yourself, that you experienced in your own life and how you overcame that struggle. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:09:45]: Yeah, I mean, I think that really kind of is. It really connects with what we've already spoken about, which is, you know, the struggle is how do I find how I fit into the world and how. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:09:57]: Do I. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:10:00]: Be myself and feel good about that and feel supported and. Yeah, bring. Bring my superpower into the world. And for a long time, I think it was. It was going okay. I'm just a very curious person. And that's something that I can teach other people or help other people to come back to through play. But then I think finding out that I'm neurodivergent and also finding out that a lot of my friends and colleagues and the clients that I love to work with are neurodivergent, that was a really, you know, I think it's, if you get, go and get diagnosed, there can be a stigma. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:10:34]: I know the idea of diagnosis and it can be disempowering or I found it really useful because it explained a lot of, you know, why I'm curious, but also the challenges that I have. But then also just being able to serve my clients better. To know, okay, this is, this is, this is. It helps me to have a baseline and a focus and to go, okay, this is what it's about. And you know, I can work, work with that and maybe, you know, if I understand how it works and I can work to improve it so it works better for me. But just having that clarity and even just the sense of going, okay, well there's nothing wrong with me, that's just how I am. And so instead of trying to make myself be the way that everybody else does that one thing, I have to find my own way of doing it or just accept that that's my way of doing it. And it's not wrong, but I just need to maybe change, you know, my systems or change the way that I do things or change the way that my house is laid out or use my computer. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:11:36]: And so it's really almost like having that under that self knowledge so that I can care for myself better, care for my clients better, and be a good advocate for, for curiosity regardless of who you are and you're, if you're neurodivergent or neurotypical, nice, beautiful. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:11:56]: And thanks for sharing. I, I nearly look at it when I think about the Lego sets that get most used in our house. My children always really appreciate it, the big boxes of the mixed pieces more than the ones with the instructions. And for various reasons. One was that once they put it together, following the instructions, it was kind of put together and then it nearly felt like, well, if we take it apart now, what are we going to do with these very specific pieces that all fit in very specific spots. But at the same time, it sometimes seemed like there was just this one purpose following the instructions, putting this whatever beach house together or something. I'm in California, so this makes sense right now. Yeah. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:12:43]: And it was nearly less curious, less creative, and really feeling like have less play in this instruction set. And then I noticed they have like three in one sets where they started to become a little bit more creative with regard to like, it is not just one use, we have multiple uses right there. And I think that's sometimes nearly how it is in life that you're looking at certain things and it's just made for that one use and you can't really adapt it in any other way. I noticed that one of my daughters is a left hander and I noticed that scissors and many other tools are just very difficult to use when you are a left hander. And then I thought, well, I mean, this is just using your hands. What about your brain? What if you use your brain differently? A lot of things are not set up for that. And I think we should really challenge innovators to create more easier way to use your brain than when it maybe is not linear, but it works in other ways. Because that's really the beauty of it, that we get the very best outcomes when we maybe think a little bit outside of the box instead of just following the directions and going to that one thing. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:14:02]: Yeah, and I think you've really hit, hit on a few really excellent things there. You know, even just talking about thinking outside the box and the way that we use Lego and you I think really come up with a good way of describing the difference between also normal LEGO and LEGO serious play. And also I think the fact that we got into this way with Lego that I, when I was growing up, that you would make your, your thing and then you destroy it and then just make all these other things. But I think I've heard a lot of grownups now say that LEGO is now turned into, you just build the thing and put it on your shelf and that's it. And so now it's the LEGO group, I think, has realized we need to actually be more curious and more playful and encouraging people to build it and then take it apart and do other things with it. Which is really what I think curiosity. And also LEGO serious play is about, which is you're not building from instructions, you're not building from perfect things. You're building metaphor and story and feelings and things are, they are like more like the free builds. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:15:00]: And that's where the, the juiciness comes from. Right? It's from that experimentation. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:15:05]: Yeah, it's one of my favorite words, the juiciness. I even use it in my classroom a lot when I ask my students to share something personal about themselves. Why you share something? I ask them, what do you have in common with another student in the class. And I give them some time to explore those commonalities and chant them about it. And I said, look, you were not curious enough. You stopped at where are you from? And what high school did you go to? Those are the best questions you could come up with. To network with somebody, you have to dig down a little deeper, because I actually want to figure out. You are curious to network, but you are also curious to really build those bridges in your brain, those little synapses, the weak ties that you're building that eventually might actually become strong ties, because you might realize you have something in common with that person. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:16:02]: And that's really when you're getting your brain all fired up about, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I experienced that with the same experience that this person had. And I always challenge them. You need to be more curious when you ask questions. And don't just walk away from a conversation feeling like you left it on the shallow surface. I want that you dig down a little deeper there. Right. Get. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:16:25]: And it's. I think you're. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:16:26]: I think you're right. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:16:27]: It's all about asking really good questions. And one of my. And that's actually the other part of LEGO Serious Plays. You're asking good questions, and then you answer with Lego. And so one of my favorite questions that you can. You can use without Lego or just in a conversation is, if we were to become close, what's something I should know about you? And that is a really powerful question for getting to really, you know, past the, who are you and what do you do? Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:16:52]: Right. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:16:53]: What really makes you you? What's a really important part of you? Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:16:58]: I love that. Yeah. And of course, another one that I frequently ask my students is, if you're not in the room, what do you wish that people say about you? Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:17:08]: Oh, I like that. That was a great one. I have to borrow that one. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:17:14]: Please do. And I have another one for you. We call it the tombstone inscription. What do you wish that somebody would write on the tombstone for you? Legacy. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:17:28]: If you're not in the room, but it's like one step further if you're not on the planet anymore. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:17:34]: At that point, I have once a student that raised his hand and he said, yeah, I want to volunteer mine. And I said, go for it. And he said, I would like that. They say, here is. And his first name, loving father. I was like, that's it. That's not. You would have been remembered by. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:17:52]: I think we got to get a little juicier. I would like that you become more curious about who you are loving father is amazing. But I would say that there is a majority of these other tombstones that probably have that in common with you. I think you need to differentiate yourself just a little bit more. Right. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:18:10]: But it also depends on how much space we have on these tombstones. Right? Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:18:14]: Yeah. It's actually a part in one of my books to where they have a square they can fill. And so that square, I always tell them it needs to be meaningful, differentiated, but it also be something that you feel if they don't know what to put on, you need to work a little harder and communicate those values with others so that you truly feel you're leaving the world having instilled those values. And if you leave the room, they have the values on their mind, and they would immediately know what to put on that tombstone right there. Nice. So that's important. Yeah. I mean, maybe. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:18:47]: Let's talk a little bit. So we talked Superpower struggles. The third element now is who are what helped you overcome your own struggles. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:18:55]: And again, it's, I think, very aligned with what we've been talking about, which is the answer, actually was being curious and playful. And specifically, I would say Lego Serious Play was a big part of it, because when I was in my twenties, I thought that I had ADHD because I had a few friends, male friends, and that's important because they got diagnosed. But when I tried to get diagnosed, you know, Girls don't have ADHD, right. Back then, it was about 20 years ago. And so they said, oh, you just have a learning disability, and found it challenging because there's even. I think there's probably a stigma with ADHD back then, but I would say that's probably much more of a stigma of, you know, having a learning disability. And it wasn't. It was helpful, but not really helpful because it didn't really explain to me why I am and how I am. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:19:47]: And, you know, again, using it as a baseline. So through Lego Serious Play, it actually draws a lot of neurodivergent people. I think it's because it's. Because it's bricks, it's familiar, it's fun, it brings everybody together. So you have the CEO of the and the intern. You have the technical and the non technical. You have the extrovert and the introvert, and you have the neurotypical and the neurodivergent. So everybody sort of has this level playing field. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:20:15]: And it was from getting trained in that method and then connecting with all of these other people globally who are using it and finding out that they're also nerd. Well, I didn't know also, but they were neurodivergent and having conversations with them and going, oh, I think you have a lot of the same challenges and ways of being and, you know, superpowers as me. So it really got me to realize, okay, actually, I think I need to go back and investigate this again. I think I Maybe was right 20 years ago. And so it was that community around the method that really helped me to see that and to, I think, maybe even also to go. I think when I, you know, when I got my diagnosis, one of my friends, I told her, and she goes, congratulations, welcome to the club. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:20:58]: Right. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:20:59]: And that's just such a much more positive thing. You know, usually when you go and get a diagnosis from the doctor and you're told you have some kind of deficit, no one's going, congratulations, and welcome to the club. So that was, you know, that. That global community around such a powerful method that brings people together was, yeah, how I found my solution. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:21:18]: Beautiful. And actually thinking about it in that interview on the recording that we recently did with my student who develops the product for neurodivergent having children, actually, he shared that when he got diagnosed, a lot of people said, congratulations. And we knew it all along, but now finally, you know it too. And he was like, oh, why didn't you tell me? It's like that was for you to figure out. Yes. That was something that you need to come into terms with, how you're aligning your superpowers with yourself. And, you know, sometimes we just take our own little journey to get to that point. It's actually beautiful that you tied that in with Legos, because I always feel that legos give us that space of playing on our own, of creating something on our own, but also playing side by side with somebody else. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:22:13]: And that could even be you're creating something together, which is really amazing if you think about, you know, like, it's play, but it's not necessarily where it has to be with somebody else or it has to be only really can completely choose your own little boundaries and how much you can really interact with others. And that's really amazing. And I always enjoyed that there's a wide space, how you use it, and it's in true essence, as you said, it's simple, but the options are really limitless. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:22:45]: Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:22:47]: Well, speaking of limitless, how can we get in touch with you, Kate? If the audience wants to reach out, learn more about you, your amazing work and of course ask any follow up questions if they have them, let us know. How can we get in touch with you? Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:23:03]: Yeah, of course. So my website is katerineskoldie.com and I'm also very active on LinkedIn. There's a really great community of LEGO serious play practitioners there. So you can send me an email through my website or you can of course go to LinkedIn and just connect with me there. I love connecting with people on LinkedIn and yeah, looking forward to answering any more questions about LEGO serious play and curiosity. Dr. Christiane Schroeter [00:23:27]: Beautiful. Thank you so much for being here today on Happy Healthy Hustle podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Christiane. We had an amazing guest here. You like this show? Hit that like button, put in the comments, what was your favorite takeaway? Or if you're still playing with Legos or maybe like one of your experiences when you built that first, first LEGO set and that big aha moment went off. So share that episode with other LEGO passionists and of course, as always, stay tuned for the next amazing episode. Thank you so much and I will see you there. Dr. Kate Raynes-Goldie [00:24:02]: Thank you. And stay curious.