Let me talk you through the two most emotional, stressful months of my sales career.
It's not a big deal to call a CTO until I want to talk.
You cannot stand on the sideline and basically wait until the dice rolls itself.
It's never gonna happen.
I don't know if this is gonna be on the record or off the record.
It's almost like playing with cards, this job.
Like, it's like you get given a hand of cards and like you have to do the best with what you have.
It's like someone might be watching down on me.
Me and Jack going into this, when he originally told me exactly the same,
like, you know, Jack, I've got this idea, you know, what about this?
I just, my first thought was, my God, if no, I don't even care if anyone like listens to this, you know.
If I take one key takeaway from every recording, I'll be such a better rat.
This is no big deal. The sales podcast.
Hi, I'm Jason Baskrant. I am a self-tied, self-governed sales doctor.
I've been in sales for 35 years now.
So I started when I was four.
I actually managed to get a guy called Michael Sigarelli.
So he's listening to this.
He managed to trade his brand new Nike trainers for a peanut butter jam sandwich,
when I lived in the US.
Been selling ever since. I'm obsessed with, you know, refining or sharpening the sword
and getting closer to that kind of level of perfection.
And what I think is amazing about sales is, you know, here we are, decades in,
and I still feel that every week there's something new that I'm picking up.
And I think that's really magic.
And I just know that in a year's time, we'll all be sharper and better.
So I think it's a really good initiative.
You've got Jack, you know, running this podcast, helping the community
and allowing us to be better, more professional, slicker salespeople overall.
Excited to speak to you.
You're someone that I just have always loved, even though we haven't had loads of time to speak.
I just follow all your stuff.
And I know you're a massive sales nerd like me and Jack.
So we really wanted to, I went out of my way to try and get you on this
as one of our first guests on the podcast.
Because even, to be honest, Jason, I was just thinking,
even if Jason has some really shitty deal, he would be able to make it sound so interesting.
But I'm sure you've got a really, really fun rollercoaster deal from start to finish.
I've got a good run up nicely.
And then I've got some fun stuff maybe I can share about now.
I'm kind of obsessed with being, not giving the illusion of choice,
because that makes it sound sneaky, but actually truly giving customers the choice.
And I always think about this fantastic restaurant I used to go to.
It was at the back of a theater in Birmingham when I lived there for six months.
And I had this menu with literally three starters, three main courses, three desserts.
And Jesus Christ, every time I was there, I had one of each.
And I'd go back and I'd always keep trying the other things because it was just that simple.
So I'm obsessed right now with the, not the illusion of choice,
but actually truly having the choice for the customer.
So maybe I can share a few things about that too.
Yeah, that sounds amazing.
I'm interested in that.
When you say the illusion of choice, you mean minimal choice?
I'm a big fan of having options available because when you give someone just one option,
I think the natural reaction is you look to see what else is out there.
So if you find a pizza restaurant in a town that you've never visited,
you're probably going to look and see if there's other pizza town, pizza parlors,
and then you're going to compare reviews and you're going to see which one has the highest one,
then you're going to see which one's closest and you'll go for that.
And I think when it comes down as well, when you're kind of pricing or scoping,
you should give the customer the choice of those different flavors or those different experiences they can have.
And then when I look to present it, I don't know, it's a bit, it sounds a bit basic really,
but I go from kind of left to right.
That's how we read.
So I start with the absolute roles, Royce, the creme de la creme,
the most expensive thing I can find.
And I even joke to the customer, I'm sharing this with you because I want you to know we have it.
It's our Halo product, Spotify, Netflix, US government.
This is what they buy.
It's great for them.
I'd love it if you bought it.
You probably won't.
You may be very happy if you did, but you probably won't.
I'll show you some other options.
And then I have the kind of the medium, the Goldilocks in the middle.
And then I have the cheapest one where that's probably why I'd recommend them to go.
And it's really funny when I've been doing this for the past couple of months,
they often go for the one in the middle.
So actually go for the one that's not super expensive, but actually not the cheapest,
but they go for the one where they feel they've had a choice to go.
Well, that pizza parlour is a little bit shitter.
That one's a bit too expensive.
There's a queue there, but this one is just right.
So like they've got the choice, they've got the options there.
And it seems to at least have the right effect.
And in fact, just before this, so please do not.
What makes you do the biggest price on the left and work down
rather than doing like the smallest price and then working up?
Well, because that's how we, I think we absorb information in a way, you know,
it's that kind of like, oh, that's better.
Oh, that's really good.
It's like, you know, you, you go into Audi, you know, Audi,
and no disrespect for anyone, Audi doesn't have their A3 diesels from 15 years ago,
seeing at the front.
No, they have the e-trons, they have the spiders, they have the really, really nice ones.
Can you go anything? Oh, this is nice.
And then as you go and you go deeper into the, you know, into the showroom,
you then have the kind of mid-tier and the basic tier of cars
that can kind of show you up the back, but they lure you in
and they want to show you actually what their engineering is all about.
So in fact, when they do tell you about the A3 diesels, they can go,
what do you know, the underpinnings or this component,
or it's 90% of actually of that car, but you just give it to the spot.
With that kind of comfort to it.
So I think we went the other way.
And in fact, people going past and seeing a load of, you know,
15 year old A3 diesels hatchbacks outside Audi,
it probably wouldn't really bring people in, but they want to see the nice, shiny toy.
So I start with the, I even say, like I'm even open on it's like,
you're not going to buy this.
I'd love it if you did.
You're probably not going to buy it, but have a look at how great it is.
And I think like Apple's really good at doing this, you know,
you go into their shops and have like the iPad pros and have all the expensive stuff out
on display front and center for you to play with.
So you get the experience and then you have a deeper level of trust
in the other products they have, which are cheaper, more affordable, lower in cost,
but ultimately you perceive that kind of quality.
If it went the other way, it's a little bit hard to justify to say,
hey, this is rock bottom and I really want to get you up actually at the top.
I have my own actual story about that, where it's funny you're saying that
when I was like looking for like to rent a house in the past couple of years,
every estate agent we went to would also show you the rubbish ones
and they'd finished with the end one.
And it ended up being the estate agent we went to was just like,
look, Jack, I'm just going to go straight for it.
I've got this unreal property.
I'm going to take you there first and we'll go and look at the other ones later.
And it just went in and it was unreal.
And then he showed me the worst ones after and I was like,
well, obviously I want the best one.
Yeah.
And that's interesting about that as well is after you have bought it,
you never think the person I just bought this off only if you buy the cheaper products,
you never think all the person I bought this off only sells shit products.
Because you know that they sell a better product, you just didn't buy it.
Yeah, absolutely.
I even say to customers, like, I'm going to, you know, I kind of lean in,
you know, I say I'm the sales doctor and I don't have a PhD.
I haven't got a doctor anywhere.
Just I think it's a fun, a fun thing to have just like this ridiculous mustache.
But I think it's quite good to kind of say, you know, I'm going to prescribe.
I'm going to recommend you something that this is probably going to work for you
and you're probably going to alleviate all the symptoms or the injuries
or the problems you've got in your business.
And this is the magic medicine to take.
Here's where you're going to go.
So actually what I do, I won't share my screen
because maybe that's a bit too much.
But I even I even kind of, you know, I use particular colors to highlight things.
I have like the the Rolls Royce.
I'll even give it a name, you know, give a name, which I think sounds cool,
you know, leading edge product, you know, bleeding edge tech, you know,
you in 30 years, like I would kind of give it that kind of name.
The one in the middle gets a bit more, you know, normal.
And the third one, I won't even give it a name, but I have this kind of, you know,
yellow chevron over the top, which says recommended.
And, you know, just we're told to read left or right.
You start the sentence at the beginning and you go to the end.
And that's your conclusion. And the conclusion is this is probably the best thing
for them, but at least I know we've got everything else up into the top.
And like I said, I've seen some really interesting behavior.
People go, actually, do you know what I don't need the cheapest thing?
But the one in the middle, that that feels really, really good.
That's the kind of gold he looks for me. Jason, Jason, Jason,
could you give us a brief intro to your version of Jack's introduction there?
Could you give us your rendition?
No, he's good.
It's he should have a podcast as good job he does.
No, so I'm a girl from will go, oh, what are you thinking of, darling?
I'm like, I'm just thinking, what's the most brilliant open I can do for this pitch tomorrow?
So I'm like, I'm honestly thinking, like, if I introduce it this way,
it's actually going to set the tone in a really good way.
And then I'll then I'll literally get my iPad and I'll sketch it out.
And she goes, you're meant to. I'm like, but this is this is sales.
So I think if you get to that depth in sales, like it is all consuming
and you do you do you do that professionally, I actually calculated the other day.
I've done 38,500 hours of paid sales.
So that's what I've done in my life.
And they say to be a professional, you do 5000 hours.
So like now I'm so deep in the craft.
I'm I'm in, you know, I'm institutionalized.
I can't do anything else.
I'd be really scared to do anything else.
And so that's why I need to go deeper.
I need to get better.
And that's why I'm happy to kind of learn amongst you people and yeah,
the community as a whole.
We're keen to hear about we want to know about big deals
because we want to know about not only about how people go about it,
but we love hearing about the serendipity of how a big deal comes to life.
Like the luck that comes with it, the chance, the maneuvers that you play here
and there, the things that fall in your favor, the things that don't,
the aligning of the stars and so on.
That's kind of what we love about the big deal, not only hearing the anecdotes
about strategies that you played or processes that you followed.
We like hearing everything that comes around it.
Like, you know, the story about I was in bed and my girlfriend was like,
hey, you want to watch TV and you're like, no, one second,
I should just sketch out this idea about this big picture that these
are my hoops, that we want to hear about everything, the ins and outs of it.
So do you have one in mind that you want to talk about today?
Yeah, I got one.
It's from a couple of years ago, but I do love it because actually
the people I sold to, I'm still, I'm still, I dare say we're friends now.
You know, we're still in contact.
We'll ring each other every now and then we'll get on together for a Zoom.
We'll catch up with each other.
And it started actually talking about serendipity and it's so funny
because last time I was actually thinking to myself like, I'm a really lucky guy.
Like I'm really lucky.
I've got three healthy kids.
You know, I've been able to, you know, be an immigrant in a foreign country
and get a job and, you know, I'm really happy with where I am.
Is that luck?
Like, am I, am I lucky that things just happen to fall?
But then I thought, no, actually, you know, it is about the hard work.
You know, I haven't just kind of, you don't just, you don't just rock up into a big deal.
There's always big deals to be had out there, but it's about getting yourself
in there at the right level so you're not getting away something too cheaply
or you're not missing it completely or you're not just kind of fumbling it.
And there's people that can kind of take a big deal and they can wreck it as well.
So, you know, the things to kind of cherish and look after.
And this one actually came out.
I'm not going to say the name because I know I'm under, you know, under rules,
not to mention names, but they're really, really, really stupidly large
organization. I'm talking about 300,000 people.
So you can kind of at least understand what status further in.
And I'm a firm believer that companies of that size, like they do have budget,
like they've got money to spend.
And I also understand that the more serious they're going to take you,
the higher and cost certain things are.
So in fact, with that in mind, the serendipity or the luck that I had this
particular day was the person who's responsible for this account.
He was actually on sick leave.
So unfortunately, he'd been signed off.
He was off for a couple of months.
No one knew when he's coming back.
And this account, massive one to spend at the time, maybe 15,000,
20,000 pound a year was just racking around.
It was just being serviced.
Nothing really much was happening.
And land on my desk, my boss said his name was Rob.
He said, Jason, he goes, I've just got this fax.
So this is, this is a little while ago.
I've just got this fax.
They want us to quote on at the time I sold, you know, lease lines,
I sold connections between data centers.
So allowing them to take one day sent to the other and send information
at a very high speed.
So they want to connect the data centers and they've asked for this
particular size of connection between the two.
Can you give them a quote?
And I don't know why.
Like I think maybe I was just, I think I was busy.
I also didn't know the customer.
And I decided that actually I wasn't going to give them a quote.
Like I just, I just felt that actually was too much time to spend
generating a quote for this.
Then it would for me to maybe figure out what's going on.
So actually running this guy, his name is Deb, still friends them now.
And I said, Deb, we haven't spoken before.
My name is Jason Baskaran.
I've got this fax, which is really nice.
And it says that you want to actually connect your data centers together.
I know you're a paying customer already, but I'm really sorry.
I have no idea what you're doing with this project.
So I'm going to say no that I can't quote.
He said, you're not going to quote for this.
He said, do you not want the business?
I said, oh no, I didn't say I didn't want the business.
But what I did say is I'm not going to quote for this.
He said, what can make you quote for it?
I said, well, if I can maybe come and see you and you can tell me what you're trying to do.
So they actually invited me down.
So that she had an office on the south coast of the UK.
So just drive past Orsham and you get towards Worthing.
So I ended up in Worthing, come to this office.
And honestly, these were probably the nicest bunch of guys you can meet.
And I said, look, I've said no.
And I know that's maybe a bit of a strange thing to have.
I said, but just explain to me, what are you doing?
Like, what are the services you've already got with my company?
I haven't had a hand over because your main guy is actually sick and he's on leave
and we're not sure when he's coming back.
So let's just pretend I'm going to be your account manager for the time being.
Tell me what you're doing.
Tell me what you want me to do.
And they just poured out.
Like they were just giving information.
And I think that was probably one of my first times that unconsciously, like I was,
I don't know, it sounds a bit strange, but like maybe I was becoming the doctor.
Maybe I was figuring out that there was like a problem and I need to figure out
if I could actually serve them because I knew that maybe we couldn't.
Maybe we didn't.
Maybe there's price or maybe it was a particular technical requirement that we just couldn't handle.
So they just poured out everything to me.
I said, well, look, this seems like a really, really big project.
And I think maybe I can help you with this, but I can't do it by myself.
So I really felt that this was a huge company.
You know, like I said, over 300,000 members of staff,
over 300,000 members of staff that are spending a 15, 20,000 pound of the time
that are asked for a quotation, which at the time, just to kind of put in perspective,
it had probably net me like 30,000 pound.
So like not, not a lot, but also not a terrible amount.
It had done my quota for the month.
Let's put it that way.
But what became really interesting and to kind of, I guess, jump to the conclusion,
is this deal turned into 2.9 million pounds worth.
And what it turned into is actually that we had a payable service manager,
a payable billing manager.
We took over all their telephony lines.
We took over all the internet connections.
We connect not one data center, the six or seven together.
We made the services more resilient.
We made them more compliant with what they're trying to do.
And I just, in fact, we walked away from the deal twice as well.
But I always look back and I just think, I'm so glad I said no.
Like I'm so glad that I pushed back and I said, I can't quote you right now.
So in fact, I'm really taking that with me when it comes to deals big or small,
and a customer ask for a price.
Unless I feel I'm completely ready to give them a price, unless I know everything,
then I tend to say, well, actually, do you know what I can't?
And I'll explain to you why I can't, just so you don't think I'm a complete maniac.
But I can't quote you now because I actually don't know what you're trying to do.
So this one, I mean about sales and, you know, sharpening the sword or being the last football
player on the pitch during your training.
If you can actually refine your game and you can go from saying a kind of blunt
no, and like I was, I was pretty crass back then.
Like I was pretty blunt.
I don't think there's that much sophistication.
I kind of got myself there, which is nice.
But now I know how to say no, but also give them a reason as to why I'm rejecting them.
You know, I can explain to them rationally, objectively, and then give them the chance
to actually then respond or deliver something.
And there's been occasions, not many, where a customer said, I can't give you that.
I'm like, okay, well then we can't do it.
I can't quote you.
You can't honestly expect me to quote you for something I don't know what we're doing.
So that was the big deal.
Like I said, 2.9 million.
Like it really, like it was like a once in a lifetime sales opportunity.
And, you know, I hope this comes across the right way, you know, in sales, like we,
we love the after the deal, you know, we're glutton to the punishment.
We're rejected constantly every day, every month.
But when you get those magic, magic deals that are large,
they can really change your year.
I think I'm really, really change how you look at things.
And for me, it was, yeah, three or four months worth of, you know,
reaping rewards of a two year process that actually really kind of changed my look on sales.
And ultimately changed that particular year that I had.
Amazing.
I think that was a pretty big introduction.
We've got an insane amount to pick up from.
And what I'm going to assume at the beginning, Jason, is that after the first time you went to see them
in that initial meeting, they didn't have some light bulb moment where they went,
here's a contract, Jason, for 3 million.
Thanks very much for your time.
It was two years, right?
So let's talk about what happened after that meeting.
Yeah, but then I think, you know, Jack, bearded Jack, I'll call you,
bearded Jack, you know, said it nicely.
In sales, there is serendipity being in the right place at the right time.
I'm a real firm believer that, like, I don't know everything.
Like I'm very, very aware that I have massive gaps of knowledge and also capability.
So for me, it's really important that I actually have a team that is technical
or adds sophistication or adds balance where I lack it.
So what I realized actually with this deal is because I didn't want to be, yeah, unable to
serve them, which was my ultimate goal.
I can't quote you because I don't know.
But also when I do know, I need to make sure that the whole team can serve you because they're also,
you know, on board for the journey.
So what I did is I actually had two pre-sales agents or members of staff that actually came in
and I said, I need you to focus on these particular people and these particular departments
to figure out are we doing the absolute best thing for them.
And what came out really, really quickly is actually a guy called James Tant.
So if he happens to be listening, I'll send him the link so you can.
He was the guy that actually reached out and he said, look, I've just spent a day with these guys.
And it's something really interesting sitting here.
And I think we should explore it further.
And this is a deal that actually connected up, I think in the last count,
I was on like 3000 sites together with telephony lines, you know, telephone lines that were just
a couple of pound a pop per line, which is nothing like it wasn't a, you know,
it wasn't a sex, it wasn't an attractive product, but it was a really, really essential thing.
And I would never, ever, ever have come up with that unless I had James with the right people,
having a conversation that I wasn't qualified enough to have that could then come back to
say, hey, Jason, by the way, there's something you've got to sniff out.
So I think when it comes to big deals as well, I think anyone who's listening here that's either
done a big deal themselves or wants to do a big deal, you don't do them by yourself.
They don't happen. I'd be shocked. I've come across one occasion where someone did a really,
really large deal by themselves. And I ultimately don't think it was the best thing for them or
for the customer. And I think the kind of fallout from that happened afterwards.
So I think when it comes to doing a massive, massive deal and doing those big deals,
have a great team around you, like have team of people that are just absolutely different from
you where you lack technicalities or you lack the ability to present or you lack commercial
awareness or whatever it is that you feel you don't have, bring those people in so they can
kind of fill the gaps. And just from a credibility perspective, your organization seems a lot more
substantial than it may do with just you as a sales rep with that kind of commission and
breadth that wants to close the deal will look otherwise. So I'd say when it comes to big deals,
that serendipity is having the right people at the right place that can then feedback that
information to you so you can take advantage of it. Interesting. You mentioned it again there,
like credibility and the things that come with being in a group. And I'm assuming that when you
told them no at the start, that probably gave you a fair whack of credibility.
I think so. Yeah, I think so. But also then, you know, it's quite funny because after that,
I got recommended the book start with no. So then I then got obsessed with it. It was like,
do you want chocolate bar? No, I mean, oh, yes, yes, I do. So like it was, it went when it went
for hug the other way. So I think, you know, credibility, let's put it this way. I think
sales professionals have done a really good job over the past 15, 20 years to kind of change our
branding from, you know, hungry, commission orientated salespeople to actually more sophisticated,
more balanced, you know, more willing to do the right thing for the customer. I think we've done
a really good job of that. But I still think there is a level of fear from prospects and customers
that that is ultimately what we are, you know, we want to close the deal, we want to get the commission.
And I think it's really important to kind of build up that credibility that you actually can
slow that process down at the right moments, you know, know when to kind of slow it down,
put the brakes, how I need to pick up some information, I need to fill in these gaps,
I need to introduce you to this person. And I liken it to kind of playing a game of poker.
And I think when it comes to sass, I don't know if you do this, Jack's, Jack one and Jack two,
I don't know if you do this, but I always say that the key to a really, really big sale when it comes
to sass is the longer you can hold the product demo away from them, the better and more control
you have. As soon as, and I hope this isn't coming across the wrong way, at least for me,
as soon as I bring up a slide or I showcase what the platform looks like, I think I'm on a position
where I'm leaning very heavily on the product and features. So for me, the longer I can keep the
conversation focused on the business, what they're wanting to do, but also filling the gaps, saying,
do you know what, we can help you there. That's something we can cater for, don't worry, we're
going to get to that, but just getting as much information, as much data as possible, that's
when you get closer to that big deal. And then you can, you know, like I say, build up the
credibility because then you can say, do you know what, I've listened to you, we've had two,
three workshops together, I'm going to show you something that's really going to kind of hit
on all these particular points that you wanted. Now for me, credibility is not just about saying no,
but it's about giving information when it's the right time, having the right person presented
as well, and doing it the right way. So credibility takes lots of forms, but it definitely, definitely
doesn't take the form of being quick to feature dump, being quick to jump to the pricing within
seconds when it's not been asked for, and being quick to simply just talk about your product or
your business or how great your company is. That's, that kind of erodes any credibility
your brand may have. How do you set those expectations, Jason, in your do? Hello.
Hello. So I've been doing a thing actually for the past couple of months where I don't know if
you've used it, but I'm a very visual person. So for me, like long blocks of text really don't
kind of sit right with me. It's quite difficult for me. So therefore, I assume that it's probably
not going to be the best way I communicate with. So I've actually started using something called a
mirror board. And on this mirror board, I've got this wonderful picture of a mountain. And I even
say to customers at the beginning, do you know what? I'm going to get to know you. You're going to
get to know me. You're going to get to know the company I represent contentful. And what we're
going to do is we're going to climb this virtual mountain together. And you know, I can say it's
in Cumbria. I can say it's in Oslo or I can say it's in Reykjavik or wherever it is. And I can say
we're going to climb this digital mountain together. And on there, I've got particular
keystones or milestones, which are things like today's challenges, today's ultimate goals,
view for the future. So for me, it's really important that I keep the conversation away from
our platform, because I can assume the fact that we're having a conversation, they should have a
level of trust that we're extremely capable. And we do a lot, we have a lot of customers,
that's a given. That's, that's, we wouldn't be in business if we weren't. But let's focus on them.
What are they trying to do? What do they want to achieve? And then for me, I even say like,
I'm going to, I'm going to hold off, you're not going to see the produce yet. I'm going to be
doing a bit of a discovery. I'm going to be doing a bit of a Colombo, you know, like the detective.
I'm kind of just figuring out what's going on. I'm going to ask you some dumb questions,
because I don't know the answers. And I'm going to ask them, not because I think it's cool,
or I think it makes me sound smart, but because I simply don't know, and I need you to tell me.
So I really educate them. And I use phrases like, you know, I need you to suspend your belief,
we're going to climb a mountain together, you know, you're going to, you're going to educate,
you're going to educate me on what's going on right now, and what you're trying to achieve,
you know, let me in a little bit so I can understand. So I use language and phrases like
that, where I can then go into listen mode, and they can just pour, and they can just kind of,
you know, just explain exactly what they're trying to do, exactly what they're trying to achieve,
exactly where the problems are, and then I can start hitting back on them. So for me, again,
I used to call them rockstar meetings, you know, if you can do a meeting without doing a product
demo, that means you've got a lot of info from them. And you've already built up a level of
credibility and a belief that if you're going to do a second meeting, then they must trust
you've got the right gear behind you. So I think when you go too quickly into a product demo,
you're probably doing so without kind of fully surveying what's out there. So you may be going
too quickly to, oh, there's a quick deal here, I can sell a couple of licenses or a product,
and you're missing out on that big opportunity if actually there's a really big project here,
or there's a massive need that maybe even they don't know about just yet.
I think that's brilliant. And one of the things that like really jumps out on me there is
you hear this question especially from people who are either new in a role or
early on in their sales career, they often think, or ask people who are a bit more tenured
than them, they always ask, what do I do next? What's the right thing to do? How do I go here?
What do I say to this person? Well, what do I say here? And one of the things that's really
jumped out on me there is like, you've obviously come up with that idea yourself, Jason. No one's
said to them, no one said to you, oh, you should go get a mirror board and put a mountain on it.
You're like, I've got an idea for a really great way to do some discovery and set some
expectations. I think that's critical because most people go through this process thinking that
all the answers are out there and they need to go and find them. But most of the time being
creative like this is the best way to get about from A to Z.
Here's the thing. So when I started using this and I kind of thought that this is a,
here's the thing, like we're a little bit fatigued, we're a little bit wrecked, maybe slept bad,
maybe had an argument, maybe the cat messed on the floor, whatever it is, we may not be tip top.
And I always think like in my quest to be the best amateur dad, I can be the best amateur sales
person I can be. Like I need the tools and the right setup to give this, you know, to give the
right experience to the customer. So as soon as I started doing this and actually realizing the
success that was coming from it, I reached out to my old workmates and my previous company,
Get Accept. I was like, look, I've got to show you this because I think this is going to help you.
And I said, this is them. It's really hard for you and me as salespeople to always come to that
killer question. Yeah, real wonderful opening questions just kind of blast things over. But
for me, every single time, no one has struggled with this. I'm not even asking a question.
I simply say, Hey, do you know what, Jack? You know, I don't know you right now,
but I need to suspend your belief. You know, you and me, we're going to climb this wonderful mountain
in the Breckenbeekers together, and we're going to get to the summit. And of course, when you get
to the summit, you know, I need you to tell me what your goals are. You know, what is that summit
to you? I don't know what it is right now. So I need you to educate me. But as you know, with any
climb of a mountain or any hike that we do together, we need to start off at the beginning of our
base camp. You know, what are the challenges? What are the kind of pains right now? I don't
know them. But then we're going to discover a route together, these milestones that we ascend,
because nothing is one quick silver bullet, big bang, wonderful moment, but it takes time to kind
of chip away at it and build up a solution and a set that actually works you. And I need to know
how we get you there and we do it together. But you know what? Because you are ambitious, Jack.
And so am I. When we get to the top of a peak and we define our goals and what they are, and I
really want to get you there, we're going to do it together as a team. We should also gaze off into
the distance you and I, because you just know there's an even bigger peak waiting for us.
And we should talk about what's in the air. You're laughing. It's good. But then we should talk
about what's in the next three years for you and what's your real moonshot peak. And you can just
see from there. And I've said this to other salespeople, like your competition is not going to
be using a digital mountain. They're not going to be helping your customers ascend it. They'll be
going, okay, yeah, Julie, I'll show you what our platform does. So you can put your contacts in here,
like, bam, they're just, that's not cool. You're just product pitching. So I just think if there's
a way that you can have a conversation without having to deliver a golden outfit question each
time, because they're very difficult to do, there's ways to open it up, make yourself vulnerable,
but also be patient to kind of collect that data and not give the solution too soon. Let them
build the solution. Let them tell you what they want. And then you can give the left or right
recommendations of the roles, voice of the mountains, or actually, do you know what this is?
Probably the, this Sherpa is okay to get you up to the top. He'll get you there alive. You'll be
fine. You know, you'll get there on piece. So there's different ways to do it. I'll just say it's like
a really different, it's like a really alternate way of doing discovery where people say, oh,
you need to go deeper. You need to go one level deeper. You need to go one level deeper, which
sounds now I think about it on reflection, really invasive. Whereas what you're doing there, it
makes it sound really aspirational. You want to go one level higher, one level higher, one peak
further, one, one objective higher. And that sounds way more encouraging. I'm willing to give you
more information if we're climbing to somewhere together. I'm not giving you more information
if you want to invade my layers. You know what I mean? That doesn't sound very nice.
Yeah, but like layer invasion or, you know, those discovery course, you know,
just go back to credibility for a second. You know, you can, you can gain credibility by
starting though, because you want to gather information to prescribe or recommend the best
solution or the best product for them. But also in the same token, you can gain credibility.
But it's actually not, you know, you're not, you know, machine gunning them with questions
where you say things like, Jack, what's the biggest problem to yourselves? People face
say, Jack, is it a real big issue that actually your, your sales team don't act with the right
information at the right time? Jack, would you love to speed up the like, they know they're in
a discovery. And as a result, that God is probably going to be up. There may be polite and
they may give you some information, but they're going to go through this all vendor. So actually,
if you can differentiate yourself, say, actually, Jack, do you know what? We're going to go on a bit
of a hike today. Like bear with me. You're going to think I'm mental and I probably am. I just
haven't been diagnosed yet, but we're going to figure out how I can get you to what your goals
are. I've got no idea. So I need you to tell me, like just clue me in a little bit. Like,
all of a sudden you just, you take it to the next level, you know, you go to that particular peak,
but I also say to people as well, like sell within your comfort zone, because like I've also met
people that are extremely good at talking very calmly, slow pace, bleeding out that information,
like almost pain for the beginning, but you know, they've got a real kind of structure to it.
But on the other side, like I know for me, like I'm visual, I'm hyperactive, I think Jack is as
well. You know, we can, we can lean more heavily into this. So I'd say like, whatever your persona
is, whatever the easiest way it is for you to sell, lean very, very much into that. And that's
when you're going to get the best results because you are authentic and there's no, there's no,
can I say bullshit? Because there's no bullshit with it. You can beep it out. Yeah.
For me, one of the most intriguing parts about, about what you learn about yourself as you get
older in sales is that you learn how to be yourself at the start. You're trying to be a salesperson.
Trying to like, what would a salesperson say here? Then after a while, you're like, no, I'm
going to be myself. I used to think at the start, I need to put on a different voice.
No, I did use. Yeah, he's a bit of a posh voice, obviously.
I'm not going to do an impression of it now because it's embarrassing. Now I just speak
like myself. Sometimes I sound like a Dick Van Dyke out of Mary Poppins. I would rather that now.
So, okay, I want to try and bring it back to the deal because that's normally what we talk about,
although I'm more than happy not to. We derail. Yeah, we derail, but in a very great way. So in
this instance, tell me how did you take these guys through what seemed like a really easy,
like simple, give us a quote. I want a few blah, blah, blah. How did you manage to take them from
there up the mountain to the point they're going to spend almost three million dollars a year?
Yeah. So I mean, you got to remember like back then I was more junior. So I think I again,
I leaned into the fact that I was junior and there was just stuff that I didn't know.
So when I came back from this meeting and I met with three people that particular day
and I came back to the office and said, you know what, I think there's something big there.
Like I think there's a real big project there and we need to scope this. So first thing I started
doing was actually mapping out peer-to-peer relationships and made sure that their director
of that particular project was in touch with our directors and with our leadership team,
that he felt safe. We were taking this seriously. But I also spoke to my champion there and I said,
look, I'll be really honest with you, like I can quote for this, but it just seems like so much
more you're trying to improve. They're within incumbent at the time and what became really,
really clear was they were asking us to quote because actually they're incumbent and really
let them down and just didn't have the coverage, the pricing or the availability they wanted. So
that was really important to them. So I started to lean more heavily into these things that were
important to them to scale this mountain. And when I started focusing on that, I could then bring in
the right people, whether it was people that dealt with a particular product, whether it was telephony
or there was data services. And then when things started becoming bigger, I had project planners
and managers that could give that kind of again, that credibility again to raise us through the
next level. So the first thing I did was map out what are their needs? Why are they even asking
us right now? I think there's actually a question of sales people sometimes forget when a customer
is inbound and this was ultimately an inbound, they'd ask for a quote. Why are you asking us for
a quote? Like educate, what's brought this about? That's a really nice way to get to know them. So
digging deeper in terms of the start of this, digging deeper in terms of their needs,
but then starting to map out people where my, my honest ability was not there, but I knew
it could be dealt with much better by a senior leader or someone who's in our tech team or someone
who's on our billing support team to give that credibility to mapping out those people. And
like I said, maybe 10, 15 minutes ago, no big deal is done by one salesperson. They're really not.
Maybe there's one or two cases out that I know of one, but the big strategic deals are done because
there's a real credible, diverse, talented team in front of the customer, the customer goes, you know,
I can really, really lean on Contentful. I can really, really lean on sales loft because it's
not just Jack's there. There's a whole group there able to support me. So yeah, just mapping out needs,
mapping out stakeholders, mapping out people. And then being really, really clear, actually,
here's where I think we need to take the relationship. And here's what I think we should do.
And when it comes to big deals, the more structure you can give and the more certainty you can give,
the more comforting that is. There's nothing worse than maybe just saying, yeah, I'll give you a quote
and then I'll catch up with you in a couple of weeks. What do you mean you'll catch up with them?
What you just see how they are? And that's tends to be how the conversation starts. I just want to
check in and see how you are. So what I did, even on this deal at the fundamental level was
we mapped out, and again, a bit of the mountain, what are the milestones? What are the things that
we're going to go through together? What are the next steps? Does this feel good for you? Does this
feel comfortable? Is there something missing? Now is the time to speak? So we had a really,
really open dialogue. And what it meant that was by halfway into this kind of scoping, this validation,
I was spending two days a week in their office, they were cooking and making me lunch and bringing
me food, like we were deeply, deeply intertwined. And this kind of guard of the dealing with a sales
person was completely down is actually, hey, we're dealing with someone that really wants to help
our business. Because fundamentally, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to make sure that
we could help them to achieve what they weren't achieving right now. And that came about because
we said no, we figured out the needs, why, why they came to us in the first place.
I think you said at the beginning as well, Jason, that you thought you lost the deal a couple of
times. Oh, God, yeah. Yeah. Could you talk to us about that? Yeah. You give me like PTSD because
I remember. So we got to the point. And again, I think with these large deals, there's always
negotiation to be done. But there's a kind of, there's like a step off point where each party can
kind of walk away. And I think there's very few ways you can persuade a customer to spend a large
amount of money, you don't do any persuading, it's about, you know, providing the facts,
giving them the medicine, the recommendation, and asking if they're willing to go forward,
you know, and step forward with you. So we've gone through this kind of
really, really extended discussion with I won't call it negotiation, but you know,
they were, they're frustrated about SLAs, they want a particular liability clause,
you know, all the kind of standard stuff. And we just got to this logger head point where
it wasn't moving. So what we did is we actually drew up the contract and we delivered it to them
at the head office in Reading. And we said, here, here is your, here's your contract. And I'm
delivering it to you in paper because there's no more changes to be done. And actually rang the
next day and they didn't actually bring me, they rang my boss. I remember because I was
actually in Guildford at the time. So I've taken my, taken my lovely girlfriend who I'm still with
now, to this wonderful woods outside the back of Guildford. And I'd got a lovely packed lunch from
M&S. I got a phone call through and I actually thought the phone call was that the contract
was being signed. They just said, you know what? Yeah, we're, we're, we're being silly,
we're going to sign it. And my boss rang me. He said, Jason, I know you're on your day off.
And I'm going to tell you the news and I just want you to move on with your day and we'll
speak about it when you're off this next week. He said, they rang us. I said, they don't want the
contract. They're going to rip it up and step away from the deal. And literally, like, I still
feel sick thinking about it now because it literally, it literally wrecked my day. And I had to go to
this lovely bluebell woods. So you can imagine that spring was in the air. We went to the bluebell
woods and I had this really nice packed lunch that I got us and everything tasted like ash
that day. Like everything tasted like absolute rubbish. And my, my girlfriend, so we'd, we'd
just been seeing each other for a few months and she's like, are you okay? It was like Patrick
Bateman in American Sackle. She's like, are you okay, Jason? Are you all right? I'm like,
this deal, I've been working this deal for so long. Like I was literally prepared to get
their brown tattooed on me. And I said, I'd have to explain it to you. I said, but I've just lost
this deal. And I don't think I'm ever going to get a bigger deal like this again. So, you know,
she was really good. We had a really nice afternoon, came into work the next, next week.
And my boss, Rob said, do not ring them. Do not email them. Don't go to the office.
Stop working from there. Ignore their calls. You're going silent. You don't exist anymore.
And he was a really, really good coach for me, this guy. He gave me my first field sales job.
So I ignored them. And two weeks later, the picked up the phone and they rang Rob, of course,
they didn't ring me. I'm the lowly sales person, which is fine. Because they can map,
map, map the relationships of who should speak to who. And I said, okay, I don't have an ego
when it comes to that. And they rang Rob and Rob, when I went into the meeting room and he came out,
he went, they're going to sign the contract. They didn't rip it up. They're going to sign it. They
agreed on our terms. I was literally buzzing. And I was like, but then what changed? He said,
they were pushing us. They were testing us. They wanted to see actually, could they get what they
wanted? And they realized because we just ignored them, that no, we weren't going to get it. And
so what was the conversation Rob? So his name was Subod. So Subod rang, rang Rob. And he goes,
yeah, Rob, we're going to sign the contract. You want to come pick up this afternoon?
Like that was literally it. That's what he said. So I think it's really, really a great lesson that
actually walk away from a few deals. It's okay. Like just say, Hey, do you know what? I'm on my
limit. You know, I'm on my limit. The pricing is the best you're going to get. The solution is the
creme de la creme. I've got all the options in there you want. I can't do anything else. I'm
going to walk. And in fact, I took that lesson actually walked away from a deal just a week ago.
And that then came back as well. And it wasn't that kind of haha, got you. It was actually,
you know, we need to see where the boundary is like, what actually feels good. I'm never, ever,
ever going to do a deal. And this is what I realized at the time, because the kind of junior
commission hungry salesperson me, I'd be happy to sign off from whatever liability. Yeah, yeah,
they want that S like give it to them. Let's just get the deal in. But I had a really good legal
team. I had a really good leadership team that said, no, do you know what? We're not going to
write risky business. And with that, I've kind of took with me that any deal I do, I've got the
company front and center and all the other customer want it may want to negotiate. There comes a limit.
And do you know what I even say to a customer that, you know, you're pushing me to the edge and I'm
going to walk away. Like I may have to just step away. I don't want to let you down. So
I think in that time, you know, going back to the deal being lost, that was the one that really
stopped with me. And I remember I drove at a mini Cooper S pepper white, black stripes, black roof.
I drove as fast as I could from Abinaham, where I lived at the time, all the way to Reading, and
I picked up the contract. And this thing was, it was like a tomb, like it was like this, this thing.
I bought in my car and have my girlfriend with me. I was like, this is it. This is the contract.
And that literally was part one of three of the contracts that came through.
And literally two months later, another one, and two months later, another one, it was just,
you know, we kind of, we'd breached that level. And again, it all started because we said, no,
I remember I rang Rob, I was like, Rob, imagine if I said yes, imagine if we were there celebrating
a 15, 20,000 pound deal of connecting two data sensors together, we'd have missed down all of
this. So for salespeople listening, right, try it out. If a customer asked her coach, hey,
I'm not going to give it to you just yet. Let me just hold back a little bit because I just don't
quite understand what you're trying to achieve. Clue me in. Let's climb that mountain together.
So yeah, it was a fun deal. I learned a ton from it. And there's still so many lessons that daily
I use it to act upon my deals, share with other people and hopefully sharpen the sales sword.
Just gone 12 rounds with Jason Baskaran. He just knocked us out.
That's unbelievable. So I love that. So much that they signed the contract with a pen on paper.
They are. She's got to pick it up. I don't even know if me and Jack were born when people used to do that.
It was an honesty. Remember, I'm reading and then literally shortly after I did a deal with a
company just over the road and it was similar circumstances. The deal wasn't half as big, but
I don't know. That deal sits me and every now and then, I'll reach out to Deb on LinkedIn. I'll go,
Deb, I just want you to know I'm so grateful that we had that meeting. I'm so grateful that you took
me into worthy and you're happy to sit down with me and do the deal and get it done. We've been
friends ever since, which is fantastic. I think it's such an important lesson. I've literally
had it. I have it not on a weekly basis, but we're accustomed to just be like,
just give me commercials. I only care about commercials. I'm going to take this lesson
every time and just say no. Can I tell you one more story? Sorry, just on this.
You go for it. Okay. So just to kind of clue you in, you can include this if you want. So I live
in a really, really small town on the west coast of Sweden. It's called Falkenberg and it's got
population that's literally 15,000, 20,000. So you can imagine it's very sparsely populated.
So at this time, I worked between Malmo in the south, Gothenburg a little bit north, and Stockholm,
the kind of capital city. And I got this commercial request from an existing customer
to upgrade their account to another level. So I worked at Apsis at the time.
And his name was Daniel Novak. He actually gave them a call. I was like, Daniel, I'm responsible
for this region. I've got this request from you. And again, it was like almost a kind of carbon
copy of this. I was like, I'm going to say no. Like, I know you want this quote, but like,
how about you and I just meet up and we can kind of have a chat? He said, no. I said, why not?
He said, I'm really busy. I said, busy doing what? He said, I travel around a lot. I said, well,
that's great Daniel. I said, because I travel around a lot as well. I said, I'm in Gothenburg
right now, but I can meet you in Malmo. I can meet you up in Stockholm. It doesn't matter. I can
meet you anywhere. I said, because I live in Falconberg and I have to commute. And do you know
what he said to me? He said, what do you think of Falconberg? I went, what do I think of Falconberg?
I said, you know what? I said, I love it. So it's really cute. I said, my kids go to school here.
I said, I can run around, do errands. I can go to the beach. I can have a dip in the evening.
I can go in the woods. I can pick mushrooms. I think it's fantastic. It wasn't on my list
of places to live, but I really love it. He went, good. Meet me at Body Mester Gordon cafe tomorrow
nine o'clock. I also live in Falconberg. We'll meet you there. And I was like, what? Literally.
So I met up with this guy Daniel. He ended up becoming a customer, a very good customer and
also good friends. And I have dinner with him and regularly do cycles and stuff with him.
But I met up with him and I said, Daniel, I said, I'm going to ask you a question. Like,
why did you say no to meeting me? That you're super busy, but then all of a sudden you weren't
busy. He said, I wanted to test you. I wanted to see what you thought about my local town.
As soon as you said Falconberg, if you're going to say bad things about it, he said,
I'll never meet you. He said, you said good things. I thought, okay, maybe this guy who's
traveled from another country, maybe he's all right. I'm going to spend some time. So literally,
we spent time, did a wonderful project together. And you know, I got a happy customer and also a
good friend out of it. So again, you know, start with no light just puts that credibility there
because you're saying no based on valid principles. You're not saying no because you're a jerk.
We're trying to be clever. You're saying no because you need to get more info and you don't
want to get stuck away too freely. There you go. Yeah, that is such a critical principle because
at the start of your sales career, again, you just want to get that you want to just grease the wheels.
What do you do? It's easy. Yeah, it is easy. Yeah. If you're giving yourself hard work, like,
it's easier. But like you say, it's, it's, I think it's a slippery slope. You start giving
discounts. You start being hungry for the deal. You, you look, you talk, you act like a real sales
person, but like, just slow it down. Say no, get a big team, you know, do those things. Then try
and try and at least once a week, I'll reach out to the top former reps where I am and I'll say,
Hey, what are you doing? Jason, you're a legend, man. Thank you so much for taking the time to
talk to us. Jack, thanks for making this happen. This has been insightful. He's not a good enough
word, I don't think. It was a good, good session. Yeah, really good. Thank you. Thanks a lot, Jason.