Drew.
And uh oh, a man's voice.
That's not supposed to happen.
We're like, help! Someone call 911 (lol)
Um.
Should we just keep that?
That's funny.
Me including the man's voice are oddly curious.
Are you curious?
Yes.
Whoa.
So, how are you, Drew?
I'm good. I don't know why you had to take such deep breaths to be like, so.
How are you? Oh god.
Um, let's see.
What we were just talking about, Brooklyn 9ix9ine, and there's a quote from
Brooklyn 9ix9ine that actually like sums up how life is.
And it's Boyle and he says, life is a party and I'm the pinata.
I mean, that's not really how we feel right now, but it's just like,
that was a deep breath of that.
For some reason, this thing that came to my mind is when Captain Holt is like,
I feel like I'm floating on a croissant.
That's how we should feel.
Yeah.
Forget the pinata.
I want to float on a croissant.
Yeah, live life like you're on a croissant.
And eating a croissant.
A croissant.
And I was like to eat a croissant.
A croissant.
So I went to get a croissant.
And I was like, well, that's awesome.
Let's go to Paris.
Okay.
We're just like creating the longest list of people, places we want to go,
of people, places and things to see.
Yes, we should have like a, like a board of like, these are the places we're going
and eventually it'll just be like every continent, every weird little town.
We're going to all the places.
All of them.
And also we could like actually record there and have like an interesting story
in each place.
I'm like, hold tight.
This is actually going to happen.
Let's do it.
Other than that, did not have a coaster there.
I'm sorry.
Oh, it's okay.
This table is old.
We got it for free.
Oh, perfect.
It's also wood.
And I put a wet thing on it.
Yeah.
I have had this table since before I got married.
Me and Ashley got it for free.
A garage.
Oh, it's fine.
It's holding up really well actually.
Yeah, it is.
I'm good.
I'm drinking something called a, like a spring flower drink and it's really good and it's
actually almost gone, but it has dragon fruit in it and dragon delight is good.
I am drinking, I don't know why we always talk about our beverages, but I like it because
that's important.
I think that's the only thing in life that's important right now.
I'm drinking liquid IV for hydration and then for caffeination I have, it's called a butter
cup latte and the guy at the coffee shop told us it's supposed to taste like salted egg
yolk, which we are weird and we like savory, salty things like that.
But yeah, I like it.
We were talking about how it sounds very Chinese.
Yes.
And I will give it the ultimate Chinese compliment and say, it's not too sweet.
It's not too sweet.
I know that's actually how I like things.
I really like it.
10 out of 10 would recommend.
Perfect.
And spring flowers in your drink also recommend.
So happy.
But before we start this, I just have one question for you.
Which golden girl are you?
This is totally segue into something random.
Okay, I like it.
So I thought about this before.
Yeah, me too.
I mean, I think if you're living and breathing, you have to think about it.
And I'm pretty sure I've taken a bus few times before.
Same here.
I would say depending on my mood, I'm probably a little bit dorthy and a little bit rose.
Oh, that's interesting.
I would have given you a little blanche.
Really?
I mean, considering maybe I am blanche.
Conversation earlier about what character you want to be.
That's true.
I think, you know what, I think Drew's right.
I'm more dorthy and blanche.
Yes.
I would just like to think I'm a rose, but I don't know that I'm that cute and nice.
I mean, which I mean, like that is its own cute thing, but blanche and dorthy can be cute and nice.
I wait first.
I want to know which one you are.
Um, well, I'm Dorothy because we're both tall and one time one of my roommates told me after I had been like out of town.
She's like, I feel safe when you're home because I'm not scary.
I'm not scary.
Wait, was it Kate?
No, it was Jessica.
But it was like the blanche literally said that to Dorothy one time and Jessica's a blanche.
That's really funny.
Yeah.
But I was like, so I could like, like cross my arms and look at them and be like, what are you doing?
Get out of here.
I don't know.
That's funny because I feel like I relate a lot to you and Jessica.
And so it makes sense that I blanche and Dorothy.
Yeah.
But I think I'm also partly Sophia.
Oh, I can see that.
You're like back in Sicily.
Yeah.
But I think that's only because our personality types are similar.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I'm going to counter that and go back to what we were talking about before the podcast, which clue character do you relate to?
Oh, yeah.
So I was telling Olivia, I've always been Colonel Mustard.
What does that say about me?
And why does that also track with the fact that I'm Dorothy?
I probably would love to be Miss Scarlett, but I felt like even as a little girl, I'm like, no, I will be the 75 year old Colonel with the mustache.
And then meanwhile, I'm like a five year old.
I'm like, I want to be Miss Scarlett because she's hot.
Yeah.
See, even big when I was five, I was like, well, I'm not hot.
I'll be the one with the mustache, which I was like so mad if I was playing a board game and I wasn't like the hot character.
Please don't judge me for this.
Candy.
Candyland.
Candyland, were you the-
I would cry if I didn't get the Queen Frostine card.
Oh, yeah.
And I got your Queen Frostine Funko Pop.
When I was getting married, she got me a Queen Frostine Funko Pop and I still have it.
That would be so happy.
I have like the weirdest combination of Funko Pops.
I have Queen Frostine, Black Widow and Gerard Way.
I actually feel like that kind of says so much about me.
Like if you just kind of morphed them into one, suddenly they would be-
It's me.
You and you, it'd be suddenly they would have Natasha's red hair and then it would just be the rest of you.
Yeah.
Sparkle emo princess.
Yeah.
My Funko Pops, oh no, this is actually funny.
I have Rey from Star Wars.
Yes.
That was a gift, which was so nice.
And I have Steve Harrington from-
Yes.
Okay.
From Stranger Things.
And I have Bo Katan from the Mandalorian.
It's perfect.
It is.
That's not all.
I also have two characters from an anime and their names are Hange and Levi and I love that.
Oh, I know about Hange.
Yes.
So I have been trying to find, and I still haven't been able to find one, a Funko Pop of Jinx from Arcane.
Do they have one?
I think they do.
I haven't seen any in stock.
I think it's the game version of Jinx.
Okay.
Yeah, you need to have one.
That would really round out the personalities of my Funko Pops.
There's one that I really want that I probably should not share on here because I feel like not everyone would like it, but I will tell you after.
Okay.
Tell me later.
Okay.
Let's put a pin in that, make people wonder what it is.
Yeah.
This is like, I think our longest intro ever, but I love it.
I love it.
And it's really just about Funko Pops and Clue.
What character are you?
Oh, what Brooklyn Nine-Nine character are you?
What did you say about me the other day?
I think you said I was a combination of Gina and Terry.
Yes.
Because you could be scary Terry.
You're like, this is taking too long.
I need to get to the farmers market.
And I'm like, time for Gina's opinion.
And then it says it on the, yeah.
Yeah.
Time for Olivia's opinion.
Or Olivia was right.
And then it's just embroidered on your back.
And you are Jake and Captain Hull.
Yes.
Which why am I always the older man wearing a uniform?
Not really.
I mean, deep down inside, I'm like, I'm Captain Hull and Colonel Mustard.
But also you said those are your favorite.
They are.
And it's just funny because I'm like, that is who I am.
And, but also I'm very, very girly, like girly, but with a, an older man twist.
What?
Does it make any sense?
We should probably be like, we're normal looking, I promise.
Yeah.
I'm like, for anyone who doesn't know Drew, Daisy Ridley is her celebrity dog lookinger.
That's really nice.
Her and what's other chick's name?
Jamie Alexander.
That's also really nice.
Thank you because they're both very nice looking.
Well, yeah, you're very nice.
Let's see, who are yours?
Also, the nice thing about this is if this is too long, Roman can be like quit talking.
And we're like, Hey, if, if you don't know who we are, we're just going to keep describing
what we look like.
Yeah.
Olivia to me has always looked like, um, oh my gosh, I cannot think of her name.
You probably are better at picking the name because all of a sudden my brain just like
literally, once you said Jamie Alexander, my brain was like blank.
Who is that one girl that people always tell you you look like?
I get a couple.
I get Brice Dahls Howard.
Okay.
That was the other one.
That's the one I knew of, but there was another.
I know you've told me that you think I look like Cheryl Blossom.
A little bit.
Madeline Pitch.
Pitch.
Yeah.
I feel like this is going to be like too much information.
I feel like I looked more like her when I hadn't even just ordered.
Oh, well, you still kind of look like you're now to me.
Oh, thank you.
Just, I think it's the way she acts because I watched the first season of Riverdale and
stopped after that, like everyone else in the world.
And every time she would do something, her face would make a face that looked like yours.
That's so funny.
Cause I feel like it's more people's facial expressions that people will be like, Oh,
you're trying to find me of this character.
I'm like, I don't feel like I look like her at all.
And I see them make a facial expression.
Yeah.
Oh, I see it.
But it helps when they're making a facial expression, but then they also have red hair
and my brain is like, that's Olivia.
But there's literally somebody else and I cannot remember.
That's going to bug me.
I don't try to remember like who you have said in the past.
But you also have a Lana Del Rey vibe.
That's so nice.
Yeah.
One of our friends does call me Lana.
Yes.
Nickname for me.
Yeah.
It's called having a Pinterest board of what your friends look like.
Look, this is how me and Drew became friends.
We're like, this is the character that this person reminds me of.
And yeah, we just have weird, creepy little conversations about that.
Oddly curious.
Can you even imagine?
We'll have to think of it because my brain literally is like, I, yeah.
Sorry, I can't help you.
If you think of it later.
Oh, I will.
Okay.
Oh, I will.
But this is actually perfect.
It ties into my story because of the two people I talk about.
I actually talk about their celebrity lookalikes.
Not that that's pertinent to the story.
It's just, I felt like if anyone wanted the visual of who I'm describing.
I feel like that's very helpful.
Yeah.
Because sometimes you're like, oh, I can't picture what the person looks like.
Yeah.
And they could always Google these people, but sometimes people don't necessarily want
to see sad things.
They just want to be told them.
I don't know what anyway.
I understand.
That's why we're doing this.
Yeah.
But anyway, are you first this time?
I think I'm first this time.
Okay.
So time to jump into this.
So I am doing the topic of medicine shows in the American West.
Oh, right.
And I will get into my, I almost said my inspiration.
My inspiration.
My source.
I just got funnier the more I thought about it.
I did.
Okay.
So there's like an old man with a little mustache and he's holding a mysterious bottle and he's
like, I am your muse.
So I, I did get the idea though from listening to the maintenance phase podcast and they did
an episode about the origin of snake oil or snake oil salesman.
That's, that is going to be awesome.
I just downloaded or like subscribe to that podcast tonight and I'm going to check it
out.
And then my other sources, an article about traveling medicine shows on culture and communication
on dead media is the, is the, is the, is the, is the, is the, is the, is the, is the, is
the website, which is very cool.
That's a cool name.
And then patent medicine on legends of America.com patent medicine in the 1800s on allocation.com
and then a article by the code switch podcast on NPR.org.
Oh, support your local station.
I know.
I after reading that article, I want to check out that podcast.
I've never listened to that one.
Me either.
Okay.
So medicine shows.
So the origin was, um, they were popular during 1850 to 1930 in the U S, but before American
medicine shows, there was the European, I think it's pronounced Mount Bonk, which was popular,
popularized through middle ages and the Renaissance.
The main purpose of Mount Bonk's, I don't, I feel like I'm saying that wrong.
Is it B A N C B A N K.
Oh, not bank.
Not bank.
That sounds too.
It sounds too.
Not right.
Okay.
We're going to go with mountain.
Monc.
Was to sell miracle cures, but also to draw people in, they would use forms of Comedia
Del Arte, a popular form of street theater.
And this was also around the time where, um, like theater and plays were outlawed by the
Catholic church.
So this was like the way of them getting their entertainment.
The Catholic church is like, we hate everything.
I'm sorry.
That's not me.
Well, I mean, we're like, look, look, history says, yeah, this is history saying it, not
me.
Um, they would perform musical and acrobatic feats to draw people in and they developed
a new form of entertainment called Cirque du Soleil.
Sorry.
Well, it does start with a C.
Oh, charlatan, which is where the term charlatan comes from.
And it means to chatter.
And when the Mount Bonk entered the U S, it had a lot of similarities to its European
counterpart and they would perform different acts like ventriloquism, hypnotism and trick
shootings.
And later to appeal more to the American audience, they would add aspects of minstrel shows such
as banjo playing and blackface.
Yeah, lots of red flags.
Banjo playing good.
Banjo playing good, but paired with the blackface, not good.
Not good.
No.
And around the 1870s is when the medicine show started to shift more towards promoting
different remedies and miracle cures.
And this was during a time when Western medicine was not very advanced and was not doing much
for people.
So they're looking for miracle cures or things that they could just buy themselves.
And then Eastern and native medicine was also being appropriated and repackaged to appeal
to Westerners because native and Eastern medicine actually is helpful.
It actually works.
But they're like, you know what, we're not going to actually do that.
We're just going to use that to sell it.
Use it to sell it and also probably not give anyone profits that have originally found
this.
Oh, absolutely not.
Of course not.
How are you silly?
The primary purpose of the show, of course, was to sell medicine.
But the job of the performers was to pull people in and make them feel like they had to spend
money.
There are three stages to the art of the cell.
The first one is to draw in the crowd with some promise saying things like, I've come
here today to make this a healthy and disease free community.
Stick around and let yourself be healed.
I think that's also what Jamba Juice uses to this day.
But at least Jamba Juice is delicious.
It's delicious.
I'm like, I know what I'm buying.
Yes.
The second stage is beginning the spiel, part story and part speech.
These spiels were very formulaic and there is an excerpt from Owen Strun's book, Medicine
Man.
The tale about the Quaker remedies was a little more complicated than the one about the mineral
water salts.
In it, Jim spoke of a botanical garden, the site of which was a little indefinite.
Sometimes it was in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, and other times it was on the outskirts of
Cincinnati.
However it was, it was supervised by old Dr. Josiah Baker, a Quaker botanist 140 years
of age, as Hale and Hardy as the average man of 40.
As Hale and Hardy?
I'm quoting the book.
That's what it says.
He's a Quaker doctor who's Hale and Hardy and he's 140.
Like a bowl of oats.
Yep.
I mean, those are very hardy.
Yes.
In a marvelous garden, Dr. Baker raised all the herbs, barks, leaves, gums, and berries
from which the magical remedies were made.
The main remedy was Quaker botanical herbs put up in three small cartons contained in
a large box.
By adding the contents of one carton to eight ounces of alcohol, whiskey, or gin in a quart
jar, and then filling the jar with water, the fortunate patient would have a quart of
medicine.
I want it right now.
I know.
I'm like, please put it over ice.
I'm into this.
If it was just like gin with herbs, I'd be like, sign me up.
That literally is like a bottle of Hendrix gin and that is a Brazilian dollars.
I'm like, old Josiah Baker should have just invented Hendrix gin.
Yes.
But spoiler alert, I don't think he was real.
He does not sound real.
He does not.
He was 140.
Yeah.
No.
He had all of his teeth?
No.
I don't believe it.
I mean, to be fair, they didn't say that.
That's true.
They were like, you know what, no one has all their teeth.
That's so true.
And the last part of the presentation was a bait and switch.
Throughout the duration of the show, the medicine man would promise to demonstrate whatever
he was selling and sometimes pass it around the crowd during the show.
People would get so excited that they would buy the product throughout the show.
And then when it came to the end of the show and it was time to do a demonstration, the
medicine man would flee the scene or end the show abruptly without a demonstration.
In the rare cases that there was an actual demo, it would be a pre-planned stunt with
a plant in the crowd.
Of course.
Yeah.
But also just like the visual of him being like, and I'm just going to run off stage.
Goodbye.
Oh my gosh.
Let's see.
What in the world could that be?
Look over there.
Wild West shows were also closely related to the medicine show and it's going to get
worse.
Wild West shows capitalized on displaying the heroism of cowboys and exploiting and exoticizing
Native Americans.
No.
No, don't like that.
They also exploited the new America folklore by capitalizing on the mysticism of Native
American remedies.
The most famous example of this was the Kikapu Indian show.
No.
They're like a collectively all Native people dislike an eye roll and a sigh.
They're like, please stop.
They're like, please, you are just a whole land.
Please just don't.
Please don't.
Unlike other shows where Americans would be parading around dressed in Native American
garb, the Kikapu Indian show had the idea to incorporate actual Native Americans, which
you can imagine were treated very well.
The medicine show was well known for selling a variety of remedies and patent medicines from
the Kikapu Medicine Company, which of course was, I mean, it was a real company but had
absolutely nothing to do with Native Americans.
It was a real company, but was Kikapu even a real tribe?
No.
They just liked the name because they thought it was funny.
Well that's the worst name to pick the name of a tribe.
They're a bunch of jerks.
These remedies included salves for skin diseases and Indian worm killer.
The worm killer was actually a capsule that was filled with very tightly wound string.
So then when you pooped it out, then it looked like the tablets were working and that a worm
had come out in your stool, but in actuality it was the string.
Yeah.
And no side effects from the string?
Probably.
Probably not.
They're just like, oh, it's working.
Of course, none of the remedies actually had a root in Native American tradition.
And I just put this in as a note, be wary of white folks repackaging other cultures'
medicine as miracle cures.
Yes.
That just into modern day.
That needs to be embroidered onto a pillow.
I would like that pillow.
Or a t-shirt.
Yeah.
What if that's our first marriage?
Be wary.
Be aware of white people and then bread disease because of these reasons.
And we're like, sorry.
We should know.
No.
We're white.
So this gets us into the interesting territory of patent medicines around this time.
So we've talked a little bit about the Kickapoo Medicine Company patent medicines, and now
we're going to get into some crazy ones.
I'm excited.
And despite the name patent medicine, these elixirs and tonics were rarely actually patented,
but they were proprietary blends that originated in England and were products under patents
of royal favor for the royal families.
So that's actually where the name patent comes from.
I feel like that would have got me back at the date.
I'd be like, well, the royal family likes it.
And then it's like, actually look at the royal family and they're not really threatening.
How many string words have they eaten?
Have you seen what the royals looked like?
There was just a coronation.
They're looking, yeah.
And that's modern day.
That's modern day.
I'm sorry, you got me distracted.
I was thinking about it.
I was thinking about how terrible they looked.
One popular medicine was Mrs. Winslow's soothing syrup, which was supposed to help crying
colicky babies get to sleep.
And it did help them get to sleep because it was a mixture of morphine and alcohol.
I would say it helped them get to sleep, but then suddenly you have a six-year-old who
has a drinking problem.
Yes.
His fluid ounce contained 65 milligrams of the opioid and side effects were addiction,
coma, and death.
So yeah, you just have an addicted little toddler that's like, gimme morphine.
It's like when John Malaney was talking about how he was drinking was little.
Because his dad would come home and be like, what did you do today?
And he's like, I'm coloring a dinosaur.
He's like smoking a cigarette.
Oh, man.
But they were all like John Malaney drunk babies, probably funny, 100% terrible and sad.
Yeah.
Also sad when they would slip into a coma and slip into a coma.
And what is really sad is, okay, they're clearly not feeling good.
They have colic, but then suddenly their colic is better because they're like, wow, I'm feeling
great.
Yeah.
But that's really sad.
It is really sad.
Another popular one was ergo apial, which sounds a lot like apparel.
It was for female problems, which I like that just catch all term or female problems, such
as irregular menstruation.
It was composed of ergot and apial.
And yes, that is ergot, the hallucinogenic fungus.
The alkaloids produced by the fungus would cause convulsions and tremors, making the
victims look manic.
And then the fungal infection also prevented lactation, caused unintended abortions and
uterine hemorrhage.
So it made your female problems worse.
It actually created female problems.
Yeah.
And then it's like, oh, well, I should take more of this because I'm having female problems.
Oh, no.
I'm like, jerks.
It's already hard enough being a woman.
And lastly, we have snake oil.
Many of you have probably heard the term snake oil salesman.
This is actually somewhat of a misnomer.
It automatically draws up an image in your mind of like a seedy salesman, a charlatan,
someone who isn't trustworthy.
But thousands of Chinese railway workers were working on the transcontinental railroad
in the US.
And one of the things that they brought with them to the US was snake oil, because it was
very common for workers to be bit by snakes while working on the railroads.
These snake oils were made from the Chinese water snake, which were rich in omega-3 fatty
acids.
And the snake oil was also really helpful for arthritis or bursitis because it reduced
inflammation.
But of course, as America is want to do, this was seen by some as a money-making opportunity.
Here comes Clark Stanley, aka the Rattlesnake King.
Oh, gosh.
Did he give himself that name?
Yes.
Oh, okay.
We see what we're working with here.
Yes.
And he claims that he learned about rattlesnake oil from Hopi Medicine men, and he never actually
publicly mentioned Chinese snake oil.
And here's an excerpt describing how he would make his snake oil, which it's kind of sad.
Stanley reached into a sack, plucked out a snake.
Oh, a real one?
No.
He slid it open and plunged it into boiling water.
When the fat rose to the top, he skimmed it off and used it on the spot to create Stanley
Snake Oil, a liniment that was immediately snapped up by the throng that had gathered
to watch the spectacle.
But the problem with Stanley Snake Oil was that it was not nearly as effective as the
Chinese snake oil because the Chinese water snake had three times the amount of the fatty
oil that the rattlesnake had.
And oh, by the way, Stanley's product probably didn't contain any actual snake oil.
Oh, probably not.
Which it also makes me really sad because he's like killing these cute little rattlesnakes
for no reason.
For no reason, except my mom is listening and she's like, cute little rattlesnakes?
I don't think so.
Yes, Laura.
I said they're cute.
I don't want to come across one, but I'm so sad for them.
I agree.
I mean, I actually have come across one because of where I'm from, but I think they're cute
and they have a rattle.
Yeah.
And they're like, hey.
They come with their own percussion.
Percussion.
In 1906, the Pure Drug and Food Act was created to combat all these patent medicines.
After seizing a shipment of Stanley Snake Oil in 1917, federal investigators found that
it primarily contained mineral oil, a fatty oil believed to be beef fat, red pepper, and
turpentine.
And the red pepper or capsicum was often used in these fake cures to give a warming, tingling
sensation to make it feel like it was working.
And then turpentine was often added for its strongly dissonal smell.
So, yeah.
Surprise.
It didn't actually work.
Yeah.
Now, to wrap up, I just want to point out that although we have come a long way since
then and some preventative measures like the FDA have come about, there's still a lot of
snake oil salesmen to be wary of.
And not the good kind.
Not the Chinese snake oil.
Not the OG kind.
Yeah.
So, we have our modern day snake oil salesmen.
I'm looking at you, Dr. Oz, and people who co-opt and repackage remedies from other cultures.
I'm looking at you, Gwyneth Paltrow.
Gwyneth Paltrow, if you're listening.
I'm like, that's right.
I said it.
And also just a friendly reminder that supplements are not regulated by the FDA.
So don't just go out and randomly buy supplements.
Please consult your doctor first.
So maybe just think twice before buying into a trendy new cure.
And remember, as one of my favorite podcasts says, a cure all is a cure nothing.
Ooh, I like that.
And that is really wise.
I didn't say it, but I really like it.
Yeah, I really like your wisdom in re-saying it for somebody else.
Thank you.
And that is Medicine Shows.
Wow.
I kind of wish, because I mean, it's kind of like a weird pastime of the old West to
see that, like especially in like a show, like a movie.
If you went back in time, I can imagine watching it like, this is great entertainment, but
what's sad is the entire audience is like, this is going to help me.
Yeah.
And also they would have like different actual medical procedures that they could perform.
Like a lot of people couldn't afford to go to the dentist at the time.
So they would just like have people pulling teeth and people just go and watch people
get their teeth removed.
I mean, if you had nothing else to do.
Yeah.
And I think that's the, which honestly, when I heard the podcast talk about that, the first
thing I thought of was Fontaine getting her teeth pulled out.
Yes.
I like your thought.
Mine went to Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman.
I mean, they're both good.
They're both good.
Because the very first episode, I don't know why I remember this, because I have not really
seen very much of that show, but we do love Jane Seymour.
Oh, Jane Seymour is great.
Yeah.
And she was trying because she was a female doctor, she was in the old West, no one trusted
her because she was a lady.
But the barber did the teeth pulling in town.
And so she had him pull a tooth that was healthy, but just so she could get people's trust.
Yeah.
Oh, she got her teeth pulled.
All right, we'll trust her.
What also isn't it crazy that like barbers used to also do like dental work and like
surgery.
They're just like, hey, you handle sharp things, how about you do all these other things too?
He's like, have you thought about bangs?
And have you thought about getting rid of this tooth?
Oh, wow, that was really good.
I have always found that part of history fascinating, but it's also very disturbing.
Like all of history, honestly.
Pretty much, yeah.
I also really like, I didn't know that charlatan was an Italian word.
I didn't even know that.
I really like the when people use charlatan like as a like a funny.
Yeah, he's a charlatan.
Like I think, was that a new girl?
Did Schmidt ever call someone a charlatan?
It sounds like a new Schmidt.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just funny.
And poor snakes.
I know.
They get such a bad rep because people are so scared of them, but they're just living
their life.
Yeah, at least like them alone.
At least with the Chinese railway workers, they were like actually using them.
And they have done it for thousands of years because they have good medicine.
It's like, which you and I have both been to Taiwan, not together, which is sad someday.
I know.
Adding it to the list.
To the pod.
But I remember going down this more famous night market.
I don't know if you did too, where they eat snakes.
Maybe.
I went to a couple.
Yeah.
I remember the restaurant was garnered with snake eating and you could pick the snake
you wanted to eat.
And it was really sad because they were alive and they were in their little cages.
I would probably cry.
Yeah.
And I mean, to them, this is just what they do.
But I was like, is that feeling when you go into the grocery store as a little girl and
you see the lobsters and you're like, but why?
Yeah.
Like I absolutely like if you're used to that and if that is your culture.
Yeah.
And that was so hard.
No.
It just personally makes me want to cry.
Yeah.
Like picking your own animal before you eat it, which I mean, I mean, that's how some
people eat.
Yeah.
Um, it's, to me, it's different when you hunt it.
Like that's one thing.
Yeah.
If it's already caught and you have to be like, goodbye, you're next.
That makes me sad.
I would look at its cute little face and be like, I want you to be my pet.
Yeah.
You're like, I would like my snake, um, raw and alive and to go back.
Which I mean, like so many people are probably like, well, if you eat meat, that's just what
life is.
I'm like, I know, I know that.
I'm like, yeah, but some of us are really good at pretending.
Really good.
And not thinking about it.
And if you tell me, oh, look, that animal over there, that's where your meat comes from.
I will hate you forever.
Yeah.
So buckle up.
The hate drain.
The transcontinental hate drain.
It's just full of animals and we're like, don't even look at it.
But it's like a happy, um, train, not like the sad Dumbo one.
I was literally thinking of Dumbo.
Yeah.
That makes me cry.
KC Junior coming round the track.
Okay.
Well, um, thank you for your enlightening story.
I'm going to do something that's pretty different, more modern and trigger warning has to do with
possible murder or just death in general.
Yeah.
Um, so I am going to talk about the disappearance of lasanne frune and Chris Kremers and my
sources for this story.
Um, a rancor article by Laura Allen, um, medium.com article by Rivi Lyon, a podcast episode, I
forgot to write it down, a podcast episode of, um, murder with my husband, which is really
fun.
Um, I mean, it's a fun podcast.
Murdering with your husband is not fun, but that's what it's called.
And of course, Wikipedia.
Yay.
Okay.
So on April 1st, 2014, which 2014 does not sound that long ago.
It's almost 10 years ago.
What is life?
It's upsetting.
Um, so on April 1st, 2014, two students from the Netherlands, lasanne frune and Chris Kremers
went on a hike in Panama, uh, with a local dog.
They took off with the dog, the dog came back, the young women did not.
And a search eventually turned up a severed foot scattered her veins and nothing else.
And authorities had trouble even determining how they died.
So that's, we're starting off strong.
We're starting off sad.
Okay.
So let's just get into who these ladies are.
So lasanne frune, she was tall.
She was actually six feet.
She was described as aspiring, optimistic, intelligent and a passionate volleyball player.
Probably helped that she was so tall.
And she graduated with a degree in applied psychology from Deventer, which is in the
Netherlands.
And then Chris Kremers, she was described as an open, creative and responsible girl.
She had just completed her studies in cultural, social education, specializing in art education
at the university of Utrecht.
And um, lasanne was 22 and Chris is 21.
So they're very young.
Lasanne was brunette.
And um, I wrote on here that she kind of looks like Kate Middleton.
And then Chris was ginger.
So it's like a brunette and a ginger going on vacation.
Hopefully our story ends differently than this one.
I would hope so.
And I think she actually looks a little bit like Bindi Irwin.
Yeah.
I showed you pictures.
Yeah, she kind of does.
Yeah.
And I just, for some reason I was like, this will help with your visualization.
So these girls are good friends.
Frune moved in with Kremers shortly after her, what's it called?
Graduation?
Wow.
Where did that word go?
Into a dorm room in Amersfoort and they worked together at a cafe restaurant called In Den
Klein and Hap.
I probably should have looked up what that means, but I'm sure it's something cute like
hometown buffet.
I don't know.
Home town buffet.
With the Dutch version.
So they worked there for six months to save money because they wanted to go to Panama together.
And this was a special six week vacation.
They were hoping to learn Spanish and they were hoping to do something significant there,
like helping locals or volunteering with children.
They're just really sweet.
They sound really sweet.
Yes.
Plus it was a present to Frune for graduating.
So it was just like all around, this was a good time.
Yeah.
All right.
So in March 2014, they travel from the Netherlands to Panama.
However, a miscommunication led them to arriving in this small mountain town where they were
going to stay called Bokeh, Bokeh Panama.
They arrived too early for their program and Chris Kremers noted in her diary that the
people there were rude and not at all friendly.
She also wrote, tomorrow they will try and get a hold of the head teacher.
This is a real disappointment.
End quote.
And this entry was dated April 1st, which is the date of their hike.
So she wrote this before they left and it's like, oh, that's sad.
So these two women wanted to seem as much of Bokeh as possible.
They hired a guide to show them around on April 2nd, which is the day after this little
hike.
But they decided to explore on their own on the first around an active volcano named Baru.
And this is towards the continental divide.
Like if you wanted to look it up on the map.
Panama is kind of like an S shape or like a swirly shape, like a snake shape.
And it's kind of like northern Panama.
So this is a pretty heavily wooded rugged terrain trail, but it's not difficult.
And it's said that even if tourists had gone missing, like it has maybe in the past because
people just end up getting lost, they have always been found either with or without assistance.
They find their way home or they will run across the party looking for them.
So it's like, it's pretty common.
If someone goes missing, they're found.
Is it like a pretty active trail?
Yes, it's called Pianista Trail.
And it's like probably the most common trail in this little town.
It's very little.
It's like three miles.
So it's not huge.
They left with only one backpack between them.
And it was just, I mean, it was filled with only swimsuit, sunglasses and a camera because
they did not plan on staying out that long because it's a three mile trail.
And of course they take a dog with them.
So this is the host family's dog named Azul, which is cute.
Some of the articles said blue, but we're like, well, this is Panama.
The dog is Azul.
So other than the dog, they went on their hike alone.
They at one point did ask for directions from a local innkeeper.
And the innkeeper actually advised them to take a taxi back to town, which they did not.
People began to suspect something happened when Azul came back to town without them.
Yeah.
Friends and family stopped receiving phone calls, texts, their Facebooks were not updating.
And this is just after they have gone on this P&E to trail.
So when neither of them turned up, the community decided to wait until the next day to contact
authorities, which I don't know if that was the best, but maybe it's because they didn't
have much to go off of.
Yeah.
So like anytime you're waiting, like there's really no reason to wait.
Yeah.
I guess that's what we've learned with stories like this.
Don't wait.
Yeah.
If you think someone's missing, just go after them.
So April 2nd, the next day, the pair missed their, of course, hired tour guide tour.
So that also concerned the tour guide.
They were reported missing to the authorities.
And the only eyewitness account they had of them that day were when they spoke to the
innkeeper asking for directions and when they had breakfast that morning, which it turns
out they had breakfast with two unidentified men.
Red flag.
I think you said bread flag.
Bread flag.
Red flag.
Which I'm like, well, bread flags at breakfast.
Bread flag would be happy.
Bread flag is not good.
It's not good.
Yeah.
So an extensive search was organized by the Panamanian authorities with help of locals,
native tribes, sent dogs, emergency aircraft, and signal flares.
The families of both frun and cremers also became concerned because they didn't get a
check-in call.
And on April 3rd is when they began the aerial search of the forest and on foot.
In the days following their disappearances, authorities conducted more search, more intense
searches.
By April 6th, the parents of the women grew frantic and flew to Panama with Dutch detectives.
And then they joined this massive search together.
So for a time, many suspected that they never even got lost, but were instead of victims
of a crime in town, which I'll talk about that a little bit more later, which a lot
of people felt like, OK, that's just stretching too far.
They're like, well, that's never been true.
Is it?
Like proven false.
Yeah.
The search efforts moved into the forest where the young women traversed using an on foot
search of several teams and dog units.
Investigation lasted for 10 days.
But by April 14th, this search was scaled down.
But they did continue on for 10 weeks, but it just like the manpower wasn't there anymore.
That's pretty impressive.
10 weeks though.
10 weeks.
Yeah.
There was a woman from a local tribe and I didn't, I tried to look up how to pronounce
it.
I'm going to give it my best shot.
Nogabe, she found a blue backpack that she claimed was along the bank of a nearby river.
And this backpack had sunglasses, a camera, two cell phones, money, two bras, and fruence
passport and a water bottle.
So it's kind of like, well, her passport's there.
That's not a good sign.
After finding their phones, authorities now had a lead, they examined the phones and they
unraveled a pretty grim timeline.
So again, this has been 10 days.
Well over 10 days now.
The phones however remained active for 10 days after they went missing.
Oh.
What?
What does that mean?
Phone is that, that battery is strong.
Unless is it the battery or is it just like the signal?
The signal?
I don't know.
I guess I should have looked into that.
I don't know how that works.
But during this time, Kremers and Froon repeatedly called for help.
They called the emergency number for the Netherlands, which is 112, which is really sad, because
it's like they're probably panicking.
They also used 911, which is Panama's emergency number.
And they made numerous calls just a few hours into their hike, in fact.
Just show that they managed to connect only once due to poor reception and this call was
stable for only two seconds.
Which is just heartbreaking.
That's unlike, yeah.
Like you're like, oh, we got it and it's over.
So after these attempted calls, the phones stayed on for some time.
Chris Kremers phone was locked and it showed that someone entered a wrong pin several times,
which we know this from an iPhone standpoint.
If you put in the wrong pin, suddenly your phone is locked for, who knows how long.
And then her phone was powered on one last time in April.
So I guess it was, they would turn it off to conserve power.
So her phone was last powered on on April 11th, which again, they went missing on the
first.
Both phones went dead afterwards.
In the timeline, authorities assumed at least one of the women were alive, but by at least
five days into the search.
Then they turned their attention to the camera that was in the backpack.
So the girls camera showed evidence of what may have happened.
More than a hundred pictures were on the camera.
The first few looked like normal tourist photos with the women smiling together.
But eventually the tone of the pictures change.
They actually get kind of creepy and you can look them up online.
There's nothing too disturbing, but it is just kind of unnerving to see that.
Like knowing what happened.
Yeah.
And the family doesn't really want you to see those either, which is like, we want to
respect their wishes.
So photos on the camera showed that the girls had hiked beyond the lookout point where most
tourists would normally go.
By 4.39pm, they made their first attempt to call emergency services, but reception was
too poor.
Both phones revealed attempted calls for help several times on the first and more made throughout
the following few days.
By April 5th, it was apparent that Lizaan's battery was dead and there were 77 failed
access attempts on Chris's iPhone.
Which yeah.
I wonder with their theory that maybe one of the girls was alive if maybe Lizaan was
trying to get into Chris's phone?
That's what I think too.
Which makes you think, okay, Chris might have been the one that was injured or I mean, has
she already died at this point.
So one showed cremers with what looked like concern on her face.
So this is a picture dated around the time of the emergency calls.
After this, the photos were taken from April 8th and likely snapped in between 1am and
4am.
So they had already been missing for quite some time.
But what's really concerning is their camera was found perfectly put in a backpack.
Did somebody else take these pictures?
Oh, that's really creepy.
Yeah, very creepy.
And these pictures were of seemingly random objects like a stick with a plastic bag sticking
into it as well as scenes of foliage, canyons, and a bridge.
So I don't know.
Experts propose several theories about how and why the women took these photos.
The arbitrary pictures showed focus as if steady hands took the shots suggesting they
were intentional.
Perhaps the photos served as trail markers to help the young women find their way around
or back to the rescuers.
Because they were dark, they might have used the camera flash as a light source to scare
away animals as well.
So they could have been purposeful or they could have been using the flash as a light
source.
But I think if the pictures were steady, I don't think that would have been the case.
Yeah, I feel like if there was an animal you wouldn't care about what you've been taking
a picture, you'd probably just be waving it around.
Yes, exactly.
Many suggested that neither girls took these photos but believed that someone who abducted
them did, which I actually agree with that.
Froome's parents requested authorities refrain from releasing all the photos from the camera
to the public.
Allegedly, some pictures depicted them in a rough state, which is really sad.
During a Panama-based TV program broadcast, the newscasters accidentally leaked some photos
and this happened again on a Dutch TV program.
That's so annoying.
So annoying.
Yeah.
The second show featured a photo focusing on the back of a person's head, which suspected
to be Kremers, and the image showed injury to her head.
So there's blood in her hair.
This leads to speculation about how Kremers suffered an injury during the hike and that
Froome perhaps used the camera for light or to document her friend's last known whereabouts
before seeking help, which also explains why there were so many attempts made on Chris's
phone because Froome's phone had already died.
Yeah, or maybe if like, Lizanne was trying to find a way out of the trail, maybe she
was trying to take pictures of things that would remind her where her friend was.
After the discovery of the backpack, the search for the young woman began again, and this
time in a different area.
Authorities investigated along the Rio Culebra, aka the Serpent River.
What is it with this episode?
I know.
It's snakes.
Oh, that's funny.
Your swiftest send us a message.
Oh, I hope so.
I hope it's also tickets to her show in Tacoma.
We're like, please, please.
So this, the Serpent River is near the village of Alto Romero, and this was quite far from
the trail that they were originally on.
But because of where the backpack showed up, they were like, okay, clearly they're not
in the same area if this is accurate.
So this time with this new search, they found something.
Kremers clothing neatly folded and arranged on the river's edge.
No.
That literally just gives me chills.
Like there's no way that your friend would do that.
No.
Also, is there anything more disturbing than a disturbed person neatly folding your clothes?
No.
There is nothing more disturbing than that.
So the shorts that were folded appeared zipped and folded nicely, like I said.
They were placed above the waterline about a half a mile upstream from where the local
tribal woman originally found the backpack.
Curiously, the garments showed up on the opposite side of the river from where the women took
the photos.
And they were not, I mean, it could have taken a while for them to be found.
So clearly they're dry, but it's just creepy that to go through the river, you have to
get your clothes wet and your clothes are dry.
I don't know.
And it has been a while, obviously, to close dry 24 hours.
I'm just saying, it's just weird to me.
It is weird.
Yeah.
So two months after discovering this clothing, further searches finally turn up some human
remains.
Searchers found a shoe behind a tree along the river where the side where the backpack
appeared.
It contained a sock, a fully intact human foot and ankle bones.
And there was enough flesh on the foot for DNA testing.
Can I just say I really hate the word flesh?
Oh yeah.
It's up there with moist.
Yeah.
There's another word we were just talking about the other day that was like that.
Flesh, moist.
There's another one.
We'll think of what it is.
In addition, I'll think of your celebrity look alike.
The two very important things.
So by the end of August 2014, DNA tests were done and it linked the foot to lasan frune.
Investigators later uncovered more bones and bits of skin numbering up to 33 skeletal
fragments.
Oh my God.
They also found bits of criss-cramer skin throughout the jungle.
No, don't like that.
No.
While the young women were obviously dead, which is unfortunate, this does not explain
how they died at all.
The bodies were in pieces.
They were likely scattered by the river over time, perhaps.
They don't know.
But all of the evidence was lost.
There were no marks on the bones to indicate damage and some of the bones appeared bleached
because they had been in the sun so long.
The only other suggestion of injury of the remnants of frune's foot, though a broken
foot wouldn't have killed her, they found the women, though they found, oh my gosh,
what am I saying?
The only other suggestion of injury was these remnants of bones, even though a broken foot
would not have killed her.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Although they, quote unquote, found these women, even though they're in pieces, authorities
does not, does not, what am I saying?
Authorities do not know.
Other deaths occurred.
My brain just broke.
It was a hard sentence.
I'm like, look, I don't like what's happening to these girls and it's making my brain
broken.
And it's upsetting us.
Yeah.
Let's see.
Authorities faced the struggle of trying to determine why and how they died.
It actually would be quite a feat.
That would make me sad, especially if you were the authorities in a country that was
so far from where they're from and you had like basically Dutch authorities breathing
down your neck and the families and it's like, could you even imagine?
And there's like hardly any evidence.
There's no evidence.
Yeah.
Like I do not envy this task.
Because there could have been someone, foul play, they began looking for people of interest.
They tried to figure out if the women had company besides the dog.
The innkeeper they spoke to said they were alone and had asked for directions, but that
was just them and the dog.
However, like I said before, the pair met with a pair of Dutch men for breakfast.
But despite all this, and I even tried looking into it, there's really no information about
these men.
And what's really interesting is why, how are they both Dutch?
Yeah.
Like does that seem odd?
Like did they somehow know them through school?
Yeah.
Like did they already know them or is maybe Panama just a really highly Dutch travel destination?
Like they're like, we love Panama.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
It's just interesting to me.
Nearly a year later, so they went missing in April of 2014.
By March 2015, almost a year after Kremers and Frun traveled to Panama, the investigators
reached their last conclusion.
The research into the case suggested that women, that these women most likely suffered
some sort of accident along the trail, became lost in the forest.
They suggested Frun had fallen a great distance and died from her injuries either near or
in the river, which is why maybe her foot was near the river.
And this theory was only supported by her foot, which is sad.
Experts say that the breaks in the ankle and foot could only occur from a fall from a great
height.
The taken photos showed the date of when the women tried contacting emergency services,
likely after Kremers suffered her injury.
But in the dark, they couldn't find their way back, Frun died trying to exit the forest,
leaving Kremers dead or dying.
The remains then decomposed thanks to the river rain ended up scattered miles away.
That actually does sound like a reasonable theory.
It does.
But some people, despite this, they're not so sure.
So many people claimed that the Panamanian authorities botched their handling of the
case, a writer for the Panama Paper Law, Australia.
Law, Australia.
Oh my God.
You can do it.
I can.
Thank you, Roman, for all your hard work.
Anyway, this writer of Panama Paper Law, Australia, her name is Adela Coriat.
She said the whole thing was a mess.
She reported that there was no chain of custody established for the recovered evidence or
remains.
She said that 30 prints found on the backpack not only remained unidentified, but none of
the indigenous peoples involved in the case had had their prints recorded.
Yeah.
She voiced further concern over the investigation of the electronics, saying the condition of
the equipment found was inconsistent with the place where it turned up, the lack of
damage to the equipment was suspicious, and the police did not investigate this matter,
also failed to scrutinize a photo deleted off the camera.
Which it's like, whoa, why would you not look into that?
Okay.
So a lawyer for the Kremers family for the area, his name is Enrique Rocha.
He voiced concern about the handling of evidence as well.
He claimed there wasn't a forensic investigation conducted at the crime scene.
The evidence and its sources remained unverified.
And then furthermore, still lost are the women's skulls, which may reveal a more definitive
cause of death.
Because of this evidence mishandling, conspiracy theories run wild, and many suggestions of
coverups by the police and the government have gained traction.
Some believe indigenous people at the area may have killed the pair and eaten them, which
is really disturbing.
I hope that's not true.
That also sounds a little racist.
A little racist, yep.
They're like, are they indigenous?
We're going to blame them.
So they are hiding the crime by turning over evidence and seeming to cooperate, which I'm
like, that's rude.
Others suggest that the deaths were the work of cartels or organ traffickers.
Which is also a little racist.
Yeah.
These are so racist.
Yeah.
Which, I mean, that could explain why the bodies were in pieces, but...
I don't know.
I feel like if it was the cartel or someone who's trying to hide their activity, why wouldn't
they destroy more of the evidence?
Or bury the evidence.
Yeah, seriously.
So there are plentiful...
Plentiful?
Wow.
Plentiful theories about what happened, but one common theme revolves around the government
and authority staying intentionally quiet.
But why would they do this?
Some experts and others involved in the case say it was done in the name of tourism.
I could see that.
Yes, me too.
Because tourism is probably the main contributor to Panama's economic growth.
The idea of Panama as dangerous is harmful to tourism, so it's more convenient to conclude
the women died from an accident.
So again, Adela Coriat, she expressed a similar opinion to this.
And when she said to the Daily Beast in 2017, she said, quote, it's a sad fact, but serious
investigation was never done by the public ministry.
Everything had to be hushed up to protect tourism.
I want tourists to come to Panama too, but the government must also do its job.
The victims deserve justice and the family deserves to know what really happened.
End quote.
So now we're getting to the part of the story that could it have been a killer, like an
actual killer beyond a cartel?
In 2009 and 2017, over 24 tourists have gone missing in the area or turned up dead.
A revisiting case, a revisiting of the case in 2017 brought up enough evidence to suggest
that these disappearances, including those of Thruen and Kremers, may have been linked
to a serial killer.
Leaked law enforcement reports suggest someone dismembered the young women and scattered
their remains deliberately, which might have happened to the others as well.
Sorry, I keep hitting your leg.
Previously authorities said that the river and the scavengers scattered the remains,
but the state in which Bokeh resides, they indicate otherwise.
I don't know how to pronounce that.
I didn't look it up.
Cherokee?
Cherokee.
That's the name of the state.
So the report said that after an 18-month investigation, the evidence pointed to homicide.
Pair this with an abandoned and unanswered question such as why the two young women ended
up so far from the main trail.
Some will actually think it was a slaying.
Two months after the discovery of the backpack, clothing and bones were finally found.
Only two bones, partial of a pelvis bone and a rib bone, were ever linked to Chris Kremers.
A total of the 33 scattered human bones being recovered, most were lasan frunes.
And then of course, the foot still inside the shoe was the most primary form of bone
evidence.
So what happened to them?
I'm not really sure.
I could actually see any of the above.
That's the part that's confusing and frustrating about this is that I could see it being human
involvement.
I can see it being a freak accident.
These girls were strong and smart hikers so I could see how they wouldn't easily get
lost especially on such a short hike.
Yeah.
But also like, I know I feel like even if you're an experienced hiker, you can still
just like fall and injure yourself.
Oh yeah, for sure.
And this sounds horrible but I'm like, I hope it was just an accident and no one murdered
them.
It's really sad when you have to hope that but for the family's sake.
Yes.
I, to help them like sleep at night.
Because I could just see be like worried sick the whole time.
So I will conclude with this.
The elements of pianista alone could be responsible for what happened, like what you said.
There's also in addition to that, there's parasites in the water, dysentery, toxic plants
and fruits, venomous animals or insects, as well as starvation.
These are all, you know, possible causes of death for a hiker.
It is possible, that was plausible and possible.
Are they both or?
Possible.
That during the 10 days they were presumed alive and lost, they just could not find safe
food and water to live off.
Live off of.
Wow.
It could be that because of this they no longer could think logically, got injured and succumbed
to their injuries.
Internet groups continue to research the disappearances which when I googled it, I mean there are
so many Reddit articles and I mean there's a lot of really good theories out there.
It's kind of at the point where it's like, yeah, is this helping or hurting the families?
Yeah.
You know?
Like unless they're getting a definitive answer, it's really not helping.
It's not helping.
Yeah.
And it says though authorities can reopen the case anytime given how many years have
passed, no one can unequivocally explain, unequivocally, not, wow, no one can unequivocally
explain how they died in the forests of Panama.
And that is the story of LaZan, Frun and Chris Kremers.
That's so sad.
I did put in a little hiking facts at the bottom here.
Surprisingly in the US, I didn't look up other countries but there's only four deaths per
100,000 hikers in the United States.
Oh wow.
Which, I mean that's not a whole lot.
I could do the math.
I don't know why I'm always like, if you're going to hike, you're going to die.
Yeah.
I'm not convinced of that and that's why I don't hike.
That's not why I don't hike.
I just don't care for hiking.
Well, right.
I actually do like hiking but I really like hiking during the pandemic.
It was like the only way I could go outside and like do it with good conscience because
you know people are like, don't go out unnecessarily and I'm like, but what if I'm doing it because
there's no one else around and I'm going to lose my mind in my house.
Yeah.
I'm more of a like brisk walk around the park kind of again.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not going to meet up for those.
We did.
Yeah.
But we've lived in an area that really caters to hikers.
We live in a really pretty hiking area.
Yeah.
And there's been a few times where I have been hiking and thought this is it.
I'm going to die.
I know.
I think there is, I can't remember if it was you or another friend of ours that said like,
oh I went for a hike by myself the other day and I'm like, never do that again.
You're going to die.
Yeah.
No.
Never do that.
You do die, we won't know.
We won't know.
And that's the tips I looked up on safe hiking, which all of these girls did.
They did not do anything wrong and that's the other thing is what you can't control
is other people.
That's why I also am leaning towards the fact that it could have been a third mysterious,
terrible person.
But yeah, bring food and water.
So don't go alone, make sure you have enough daylight to return to your point of origin.
It was a short hike so they could have easily done that.
The more I think about it, the more I think there was foul play, but yeah.
Just be careful out there.
So anyway, back to my list.
Roughly about 60 million Americans hike yearly for deaths per 100,000 hikers.
There is a math equation there that I did not figure out.
The leading cause of death is traumatic brain injury because of a fall.
Other possible reasons for death, drowning, or something induced from activity like a
heart condition like sudden cardiac arrest.
Black bears, other animals.
It does say that black bears kill less than one person per year on average in North America.
Less than one person.
Which I'm like, they're like, can we kill half a person?
I put in parentheses snakes being the animal that kills the most.
Sorry mom.
Wow, snakes keep showing up.
Snakes and your mom keep showing up.
Is my mom Taylor Swift?
I wish.
Give us tickets if you are.
Mom.
Laura, are you really Taylor Swift?
I'm not.
Please tell us now.
This is funny, but not funny.
Men make up 72% of hiking related fatalities.
It's probably because they're doing something dumb.
Which I mean like, guys will be the first to admit they will do stuff dumb.
I mean there's like literally a meme of like, this is why women live longer and there's
a man who's like standing on something that's attached to something that's barely holding
on to something.
And last but not least, North Cascades National Park, which is a national park near us, the
most deaths happen there out of every national park.
652 deaths per 10 million visitors.
So just let that keep you warm at night.
And you're like, I am saying it warm because I won't be hiking.
Which is so funny because I literally was super close to this place like a few weeks
ago.
But anyway.
That's it.
I just have to tell a quick hiking related story.
So I can see how people can fall easily on hikes because I think it was, I don't remember
what year it was, but one of our friends, Kendra, I'm going to call you out, she really
wanted to go hiking New Year's Day.
And I remember when you did this.
We were driving there and it started like snowing like crazy.
And thankfully we were like pretty bundled up.
But the hike took like, I don't know, I want to say like four or five hours.
And it was kind of like a difficult hike anyway, but then it was completely covered in snow.
And then the boots I was wearing didn't really have traction.
And I actually fell quite a few times, but mostly just like on my butt or on my knees.
But one time I fell and I like almost rolled off the side of the cliff.
Oh no.
And I was like, this is how I go.
This podcast would be very different if that happened.
I wouldn't have me.
I would be like, this is me by myself, boy, I wish I had a podcast friend.
And you're like, and I'm telling the story of how my friend, Olivia, passed away.
It would be so sad.
Except that I feel like I, because that also happened to me, I was not on snow, but I was
on the like a seaside cliff because we were going on a crazy hike.
And I told someone, I think I almost died.
And they're like, well, you know, what's not a good hike until you almost die.
I don't think that's a good catchphrase for something.
I don't know.
I don't want to do anything and be like, it's not good if you, unless you almost die.
Which is why we go to Disneyland and not Six Flags.
Exactly.
Sorry.
Six Flags.
Certainly not Action Park.
Callback.
Callback to New Jersey in 1980.
Anyway, that's that.
That is my story.
That was, I really hope, I hope, hope, hope because crazier things have happened as far
as like DNA testing evidence.
There's not much to go off of, but I really hope we find some sort of evidence that can
help.
And Chris's families.
I hope so too, and I hope it's not that someone killed them.
I really do.
That would be the best.
If it was, I mean, it's sad when you're like, I just hope it was an accident.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Also, I want to know more about Azul.
He sounds cute.
I know.
I really hope that Azul tried to get them help.
I imagine a dog would see girls in trouble and be like, I will go get you help.
Yeah.
He was a good boy.
And then, the people were like, why is this dog, what is he trying to tell us?
And he's like, follow me.
Yeah.
That I, unless Azul was the killer.
He would never.
We already know him.
We're like, he's a good boy.
He is a good boy.
Also, I'm just like full of stories today, but do you remember when I was in Taiwan and
I texted you, I was like going on a hike, not by myself.
Oh yeah.
I was at a waterfall and there was this sweet dog.
There was like a food stand kind of in the middle of the trail and there was this cute
dog that followed me all the way up the trail.
And then he followed me all the way back down and then took a nap by me while I was eating.
He was the sweetest boy.
Is it because he was hoping for a little snack?
I don't think so.
I think he gets a lot of snacks because his owner was like the vendor.
Oh yeah.
So I think he gets a lot of snacks.
That's cute.
I love that.
The part of Taiwan was all the little dogs I befriended.
And cats.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, lots of cats.
I know.
I want like everything should just be more like Taiwan.
I just really like that we have both been to Taiwan and we're like this is the best place.
It is actually the best place.
It is the best place.
And I love that like all the food vendors and like pretty much any shop you go into,
people just like have their dog or cat there.
And that's usually just chilling.
And they're just chilling.
And they usually have the best haircut you've ever seen.
Ever seen.
Unlike the barber in the 1800s who was also pulling your teeth.
Yeah.
He was like that for a callback.
That was good callback.
That was yeah.
Like I'm reaching it's 10 o'clock and I have an hour drive home.
So now I'm like we should we should wrap it up.
But at the same time I'm like let's tell another story.
People have just like slowly turned off this podcast.
We're like we know.
We're like welcome back to which office character are you?
Oh.
I'm Jim.
Probably.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm not.
I feel like I'm Karen.
Oh yeah.
Oh.
I'm like Karen.
I'm sorry I never.
I don't really like Jim and Pam.
They had a toxic relationship.
And they're kind of like that couple that you know and you're like oh my gosh they're
the worst.
They think they're so cute and they're so annoying.
They do get better just like anyone.
Yeah.
I always I liked Karen.
She's like the only chill one.
Well yeah because she's amazing.
Because she's Rashida Jones.
Uh huh.
And I was trying to think of her character from Parks and Rik.
Anne.
Anne Perkins.
Anne Perkins you beautiful.
Beautiful tropical fish.
Tropical fish.
Anyway.
Well on that note.
Um please.
If you follow us.
Oh by the way we need to plug our Instagram.
Oh yeah please follow us on Instagram.
It is our Instagram is at oddly curious underscore podcast because oddly curious has already taken.
And also please comment and say which golden girl, clue character or office character you
are.
And Brooklyn Nighnight.
Brooklyn Nighnight.
And really whatever you want to tell us.
Yeah.
Please tell us.
I really want to know like just tell us the fictional character you're the most like.
That's my favorite question to ask anyone.
Anyone.
And usually minor people are like I'm worried about you.
And when I ask a lot of people they'll be like I've never thought about that and I just
think I cannot relate to you.
I'm like I have only been thinking that this is my way of coping with life.
Maybe because I'm really watching Sesame Street and being like am I am I Grover.
That explains why I like you.
Grover was my favorite.
Really?
Yeah.
Because I was just like he was anxious but he was doing something about it.
I'm like telly.
Yeah.
Which is funny we have a friend named Telly.
I know I was like not that telly.
But do you remember Telly?
Yeah.
Telly the monster.
Yeah I don't know.
I'd like to think I'm Elmo but I don't know if I am.
Oh.
Elmo's so cute.
He's so cute.
I like that he just has no time for Rocco.
Hello Rocco.
He's like he's a Roc.
Yeah.
Oh yeah were we trying to wrap this up I forgot.
We will.
Okay.
Okay on that note please be careful when you're hiking.
And be wary of snake oil salesmen unless they actually have the Chinese water snake
balm.
Yeah do your research.
Yeah please do your research and stay hydrated and don't listen to Gwyneth Paltrow.
Well I mean yes you're right.
Yeah.
And good night.
Good night.
Bye.