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me and Drew are kind of like two little crows that were like,

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here we brought you little oddities and curiosities, let us leave it for you.

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We're crow bros.

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We're crows before bros.

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Crows before crows.

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Yes!

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Forever, yes.

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This is Drew and this is Olivia and we are what?

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So as a first podcast episode, I feel, I'm just gonna say it, I'm feeling really nervous but excited,

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like Disneyland excited.

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Yeah.

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Like I'm gonna make a mistake, I'm not gonna get the things I want to get done,

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I'm not gonna get to ride slash mountain, but I'm still gonna have fun.

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I feel like I am going on like a first date and like got the butterflies in my stomach,

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but I have a good feeling about it, although I'm not going on a first date with you because I've

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known you forever.

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Yeah, and we're not going on a first date with you.

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And we're all our weird topics.

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No.

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Maybe, maybe you're a metaphors.

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We're like, so what do you want to do for fun?

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Oh, I don't want to know what you do for fun.

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But I did have already like a nightmare about this, but in a good way, like I didn't want to mess it up.

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So I'm just gonna be chill and it's gonna be fun and it's going to become the greatest thing

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we've ever done on our lives.

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Yeah, it's gonna be amazing.

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Yeah, this is like a inaugural, it's inaugural, right?

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That's a weird word.

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I think you can say it either way.

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Watch the other way.

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Inaugural.

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Inaugural.

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Yeah.

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Inaugural.

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I don't know.

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It's like a boat.

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It's like a boat going out to sea and then they put, it's a proverbial boat and we have a proverbial

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champagne and it's breaking.

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I don't know why they do that.

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I don't know.

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We're pushing it out.

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It's wasteful.

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I know.

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Anyway, we won't be the Titanic though.

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We'll be like a Disney cruise line.

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It's like Disney.

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Yeah.

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But we do need to figure out who's gonna go first.

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Okay.

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I don't care.

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I don't care.

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Do you want to do a rock, paper, scissors?

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Okay, let's do rock, paper, scissors.

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Okay.

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You!

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Wait, that's right.

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Is that what that means?

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Paper covers rock, I think.

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Right, but like me winning, does that mean I go first?

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Oh, maybe you winning.

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You decide if you want to go first or second.

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I can go first.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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My topic is about the Chernobyl disaster.

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Oh man.

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So this is a topic that I've always been fascinated by,

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but I did not know a lot of the details until I watched the Chernobyl series.

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And then I was like, you know what, this would be a great topic for the podcast.

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And I get to do a lot more research.

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Perfect.

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So we're...

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The subject isn't perfect, but this is perfect.

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Right.

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It's far from perfect as a subject.

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Yeah.

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This will make me want to watch the show because I am fascinated by it.

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Yeah.

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Everyone should watch the show.

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Okay.

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So I'm just going to jump right in.

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Okay.

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So on April 6th, 1986, at 1.23 a.m., at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant,

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there was an explosion during a safety test.

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And the engineers and the workers at the power plant have no idea why this happened.

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By all accounts, this should not have happened.

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During the explosion though, two of the engineers were immediately killed

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and two more were injured by the blast.

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And if that wasn't bad enough, after the explosion, there was an open air fire that released more radiation into the air.

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And so...

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Although you want to be the guy that gets killed right away?

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Honestly, that's like, I feel so bad for him.

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Would you don't want to say that, but what people have to go through after?

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Yeah.

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I'm like, oh.

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Which you guys will hear about.

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Yeah.

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It's really terrible.

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Which also, that poor man.

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Those poor men.

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I know.

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And the thing is, a lot of the engineers that were actually like closest to the reactor,

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they didn't know that there was a safety test going on.

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So they literally did not know what hit them.

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Oh no.

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So right after the fire started, firefighters were called to the scene at Chernobyl.

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And all they were told was that there was a fire.

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They didn't know that there was any additional risk to it.

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They just thought that it was a normal fire.

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Naturally.

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I mean, you would never assume that.

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Right.

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Like it was...

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It was like a fire as a fire.

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It was unprecedented.

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And they're like, we're firefighters.

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This is what we do.

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And so as they start to fight the fire though, some get burns from touching what appears to be

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rubble on the ground, which I feel like is not a good idea anyway to touch rubble that's been around a fire.

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Yeah.

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But it should not be giving you the burns that they got.

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And then people started getting sick and throwing up.

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And a lot of the first responders are immediately sent to the hospital.

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After this, 237 emergency response workers were hospitalized.

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This was one of the like two of the biggest nuclear accidents ever to be recorded.

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And it rated a seven, which is the maximum severity on the international nuclear event scale.

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And was 50 times the explosion, but the radioactivity of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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Oh my gosh.

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Like together.

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Together.

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Oh my gosh.

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Yeah.

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So we were there to experience that.

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Right.

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But you just know how bad that was.

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Yeah.

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I don't know about you, but I read about Hiroshima and Nagasaki in school.

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Yes, me too.

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Yeah.

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It was horrifying.

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So just reading about that and then realizing that this was so much worse.

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And the fact that Godzilla is supposed to represent Hiroshima, right?

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Which is like the cutest way to like work on your generational trauma.

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But what kind of monster would come out of Chernobyl?

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Oh my gosh.

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Someone, someone should make that.

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Yeah.

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I'm like, I wonder if any of the other like monsters that Godzilla thought were supposed to be Chernobyl.

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Mothra?

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Is that you?

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Mothra.

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Oh man, we should try and figure that out.

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Yeah.

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Okay, so after the initial disaster, members of the scientific community, as well as Soviet officials,

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are called upon to figure out what happened because they still don't know exactly why it exploded

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and to find a way to clean up the damage.

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Of course, though, when any explanation is brought up that might reflect badly on the Soviet Union,

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you can imagine it is outright dismissed or the information is suppressed because they don't want anything that reflects badly on them.

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No.

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And so the first thing that is used to try and cool the reactor is a mixture of boron and sand,

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which would initially help it a little bit.

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However, the scientists figured out that this will also cause more volatility.

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And if they continue to do that, it will cause another explosion that would be even more catastrophic.

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Do I know what boron is?

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It's like one of those things I've read about.

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I immediately think of boron.

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I immediately think of borax.

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I know.

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Like we're going to make slime?

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I know.

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That's not the same.

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I would love to say that I knew exactly what boron was.

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And I probably should.

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You're like, boron that later.

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Oh, no.

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I mean, there is more about boron later.

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More about boron.

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So no, I don't know.

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All I know is it's supposed to help.

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It's supposed to help.

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Yeah.

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But I think it mixed in with the sand was causing it to be more volatile.

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And well, I'll get more into why.

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I was like, I can't wait.

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Also, I'm also really upset.

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But I can't wait.

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I know.

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It just gets more upsetting.

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So a couple of things happen.

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Workers from Chernobyl are asked to dive underwater to shut off the water lines at Chernobyl.

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Because at this point, the water tanks are flooding and producing more steam,

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which can also lead to another explosion.

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So when the reactor first exploded and went off,

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one of the things that they were supposed to do was to flood the water tanks.

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But then later, they had all of this water just sitting in the water tanks.

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And this combined with the boron and the sand could make it explode.

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Oh, no.

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So three workers were asked to dive underwater and go and shut those lines off.

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And then another thing that happened was 400 coal miners are recruited to dig underneath

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Chernobyl to stop a meltdown and basically create more space underneath the cooling pad

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that sits underneath the reactor.

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Because that's another thing that could eventually cause a meltdown.

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So for months, they just dug underneath to create more space.

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After it happened, they kept digging.

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Right.

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Oh my God.

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Oh my gosh.

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So they're working around it.

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That's upsetting.

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Yeah, it's very upsetting.

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Oh, no.

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Yeah.

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And a thing that happened in the series that I guess happened in real life was it was so hot down there.

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It was...

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Under the water?

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Uh, not under the water.

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Oh, oh yeah.

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Underneath.

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Underneath.

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Like when they were digging, that was like 130 degrees.

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Oh, no.

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That they just had to dig with no clothes on because it was so hot.

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Well, I mean...

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You just get real comfortable with your neighbor.

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And you're like, I'm gonna get radiation poisoning anyways.

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Everyone keeps getting spots where they're like,

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maybe you should have that looked at.

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You should have that looked at.

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That's really sad.

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We're all gonna need to be looked at.

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Yeah.

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So eventually after intervention from scientists and telling them that people needed to be

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further away from the reactor, the government evacuated the entire city of Pripyat,

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which was where Chernobyl was.

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And 300,000 citizens were displaced from their homes and bused out of the city of Pripyat.

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So it was just bus after bus.

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They immediately had to leave their homes.

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And they had to leave their pets behind.

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No, no.

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Why?

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Did they say why?

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Because the pets might be carrying radiation.

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That would break my heart.

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I'm like, I can't go.

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I know.

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I was like, I would find some way to smuggle Henry with me.

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Right.

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The bag is just like, look, I have a trench coat for a reason.

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But one of the things about the Soviet Union is that everyone was just so used to falling

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in line.

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Yeah.

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That it was kind of amazing that they didn't have anyone that was like getting upset or

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like putting up a fight.

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People just were like, okay, we got to go.

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We're going to get on the bus.

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Right.

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So I'm like, I guess that's a good thing.

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Their psyche was so beaten down that they're like, okay.

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Yeah, but in this case, it was for their own good.

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Yeah, that's true.

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And then, like I said, another thing that they had to worry about was pets and wildlife that

262
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:30,000
would be affected by radiation because not only would they spread it throughout the city,

263
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,360
but then they would eventually propagate and then those animals would have radiation as well.

264
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:36,000
Right.

265
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:43,280
So over 600,000 people were conscripted to become what is called in the Russian language

266
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:48,240
liquidators to eradicate all the wildlife and the pets that were left behind and appropriate,

267
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,400
which is so terribly sad.

268
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,120
6,000 people.

269
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:55,040
600,000.

270
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:55,920
Oh, 600,000.

271
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:56,720
That's so many.

272
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:57,280
How many?

273
00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:58,480
There's a lot of animals.

274
00:11:58,480 --> 00:11:59,040
There must have been.

275
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,400
There must have been.

276
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:06,000
I don't know like how far they went to like eradicate animals.

277
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:06,080
True.

278
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,040
That might be part of that.

279
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,320
Because it's not like Ukraine is small.

280
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:09,120
It's a big place.

281
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:09,920
It is a big place.

282
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,200
Man, that's really, I would not want that.

283
00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:14,320
I know.

284
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,360
Oh my gosh.

285
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:16,880
That would be so devastating.

286
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,560
I'm like, I don't know if I could even do that.

287
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:23,440
Take off all my clothes like the diggers and run off right to the woods and live with the animals.

288
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,320
I would rather just go right into the reactor than kill any animals.

289
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:26,560
Yeah.

290
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,960
Investigation into what caused the explosion started.

291
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:37,360
So a safety test was scheduled to run at nuclear reactor for that day on the day of the

292
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,160
explosion and several things set this onto a trajectory of failure.

293
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,120
There was so many things that happened that just added up to this disaster.

294
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:53,760
The controllers had already lowered the reactor from its usual 3200 megawatts to 1600 for the

295
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,440
safety test, which is standard.

296
00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:02,160
However, due to upper management wanting to save money, the test had already been delayed 10 hours.

297
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,400
So at that point, they should have just stopped and said, we'll do this another day.

298
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,480
But they decided, no, we want to continue and do the safety test.

299
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:15,520
And actually the the main engineer that ran the safety test, the at-law,

300
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,000
part of the reason he wanted to do it was because he was going to be up for a promotion.

301
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:24,720
And basically the two men above him would be up for a promotion as well.

302
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,120
If the safety test ran without a hitch.

303
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,760
So of course that ran without a hitch.

304
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:30,480
Oh, definitely.

305
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,000
Nothing can go wrong.

306
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,520
Another thing was that there was a shift change before the safety test.

307
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,080
So the people who had been trained to handle the test were no longer on shift.

308
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:48,400
Instead, engineers Topdumov and Akimov, neither of whom had performed this test were running it.

309
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,280
And they had received no training whatsoever.

310
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:56,960
And Topdumov only had four months of on-the-job training and was only 25 years old.

311
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:58,720
He was just a baby.

312
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:06,080
I'm like, I can't imagine like being in charge of anything at that age, but especially

313
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,080
like this very fragile system.

314
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,080
Yeah, no.

315
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,120
I'm sure he was very smart.

316
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,120
He's better than us.

317
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,200
So a little bit about how an RMBK, no,

318
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,080
RBMK reactor works so we can understand what went wrong.

319
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:27,200
Yeah, because I remember reading about it, but I don't remember what went wrong.

320
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,200
It's fascinating.

321
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,200
The science behind it is so fascinating to me.

322
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,320
It runs on uranium fuel and as the atom split, the reactivity goes up.

323
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:41,360
But then there's boron control rods that then reduce reactivity.

324
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:47,920
The water that is flooded into the tanks then cools down the system and turns to steam,

325
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,920
which creates a void.

326
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,200
And this is a positive void coefficient.

327
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:59,840
And the more steam present, the higher the reactivity, which creates more heat, which creates more steam.

328
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:01,840
So it is kind of like a cycle.

329
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,840
Right.

330
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:09,840
And then there's a negative temperature coefficient is introduced, which then reduces reactivity.

331
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,840
The element xenon is created in the reactor.

332
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:19,840
But normally xenon, which would not be good to have buildup in the reactor, is burned away by the high temperatures.

333
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,840
So at this point in the test, though, it's not hot enough for this xenon to be burned away.

334
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,840
It was xenon's fault.

335
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,840
I mean, it was a lot of things.

336
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,840
A lot of things, yeah.

337
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,840
So the power has dropped so dangerously low.

338
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,840
Do we know why the temperature wasn't high enough?

339
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,840
Yes.

340
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,840
So the reason it wasn't high enough is because it had already been reduced.

341
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,840
And then it was...

342
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,840
By the boron.

343
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,840
No, not by the boron.

344
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,840
For the safety test, it was already reduced.

345
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,840
And so it was not running at its usual power.

346
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,840
And so they should have just done the test then.

347
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,840
Yeah.

348
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,840
And in hours, it just sat at that level.

349
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:03,840
Then the temperature and the power wattage just dropped drastically.

350
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,840
Yeah.

351
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,840
That's a recipe for actual disaster.

352
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,840
It is.

353
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:15,840
So now at 30 megawatts, so it usually should be running at 3200.

354
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,840
It is at 30 megawatts.

355
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,840
Oh my gosh.

356
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,840
The xenon is still being created and not melting away.

357
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,840
And the reactor is not producing steam.

358
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,840
And so to try and stabilize it,

359
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:31,840
Akimov and Topdimov remove 205 control rods, all but 6.

360
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,840
And so the fuel has now gone cold.

361
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,840
The uranium has nothing stabilizing it.

362
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,840
The steam is increasing.

363
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,840
And so is the reactivity.

364
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,840
And the power is surging.

365
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:49,840
And so now they decide to do an emergency shutdown using an emergency button called AZ5.

366
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,840
Or as they say in the series, AZ5.

367
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,840
I think it sounds cooler.

368
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,840
AZ5.

369
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,840
And then that inserts all the control rods at once.

370
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:03,840
However, what they don't know is that these control rods have tips made of lead,

371
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,840
which actually increases reactivity.

372
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,840
So they're inserting all of these at once.

373
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,840
All these lead tips are going into the reactor,

374
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,840
and it just instantly makes it even more volatile.

375
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,840
All of these going at the same time is essentially turning it into a nuclear bomb.

376
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,840
It's like they were poking a bear.

377
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,840
Right. But they had no idea.

378
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,840
No.

379
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:31,840
This reactor that is designed to run at 3,200 megawatts is now at 35,000.

380
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,840
Oh my gosh.

381
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,840
And that is the final reading when it explodes.

382
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,840
The worst part of this is that the Soviet Union had already been alerted to the issue

383
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,840
with the emergency shutdown with the lead tips.

384
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,840
Meaning they could have prevented this,

385
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,840
but they didn't want to admit that there was a design flaw.

386
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,840
Right. Of course they don't.

387
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:57,840
But nothing changes with this design flaw until one of the leading scientists who worked

388
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:03,840
at Cleaning Chernobyl takes his life on April 6, 1988.

389
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,840
And this man is named Valeri.

390
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,840
And exactly two years after the Chernobyl disaster is when he takes his life

391
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,840
and he spoke out about the flaws within the reactor

392
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,840
and he tried to make change during his life,

393
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,840
but it wasn't until after his death when his memoirs were circulated among Soviet scientists

394
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,840
that the Soviet officials were finally forced to admit their fault

395
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,840
and retrofit all reactors so that this wouldn't happen again.

396
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,840
I didn't get much into Valeri as a person,

397
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,840
but his story is really fascinating

398
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,840
and they get more into that in the series and the podcast for Chernobyl.

399
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:48,840
Now I will share some statistics with you about what happened because of Chernobyl.

400
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,840
So of the 237 first responders that were hospitalized,

401
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,840
134 exhibited acute radiation syndrome

402
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,840
and 28 died in the following three months.

403
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:05,840
In a little bit, just so I can tell you how horrifying acute radiation syndrome is.

404
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,840
Okay. I'm ready.

405
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,840
The first stage is the classic symptoms are nausea, vomiting,

406
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,840
as well as anorexia and possible diarrhea.

407
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,840
And it occurs from minutes to days following exposure.

408
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,840
And then the next stage, the patient looks and feels generally healthy

409
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,840
for a few hours or even a few weeks.

410
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,840
And then the third stage, in this stage,

411
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,840
the symptoms depend on the specific syndrome and lasts from hours up to months.

412
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,840
And then the people will either recover or die,

413
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,840
but most patients will die.

414
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,840
And it's basically a complete shutdown.

415
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,840
And I know for lack of a better word,

416
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,840
melting of like the internal organs.

417
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:51,840
Oh man.

418
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:52,840
Yeah.

419
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,840
And kind of like we talked about, like looking at someone who's had radiation,

420
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,840
poisoning, looking at their skin, it just looks like,

421
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,840
it looks like they're inside out for lack of a better word.

422
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,840
Yes. It's very disturbing.

423
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,840
Yeah. Which is just awful.

424
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,840
I know. And they, these poor people had no idea what was coming.

425
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:09,840
No, no.

426
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,840
And I was like a silent killer.

427
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,840
It is a silent killer for sure.

428
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,840
And of the 400 miners, at least 100 died before the age of 40.

429
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:24,840
Fortunately, the three divers that actually went underground to the reactor,

430
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,840
they actually survived after hospitalization.

431
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,840
I wonder if the water must have been like a buffer.

432
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,840
Maybe. I think part of it was,

433
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:34,840
they weren't in there too long.

434
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:35,840
Oh, okay.

435
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,840
It was fairly quick.

436
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,840
So I think that helps too.

437
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:40,840
Yeah, that makes sense.

438
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,840
And there's no account of how many liquidators met in early death.

439
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:50,840
And the exclusion zone, which are the areas of radioactivity is 2,

440
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,840
2,600 square kilometers.

441
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,840
And that is through like Ukraine and Belarus.

442
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:57,840
Okay.

443
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,840
No one really knows how many people died from Chernobyl.

444
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,840
Estimates are between 4,000 to 93,000.

445
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,840
But to this day, since this happened,

446
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,840
the Soviet Union reports that it was only 31.

447
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,840
Of course.

448
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:12,840
Yeah.

449
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:20,840
And then finally, Gorbachev is quoted as saying that he believes Chernobyl is what ultimately led to the fall of the Soviet Union.

450
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,840
And that, it wasn't anything else.

451
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:23,840
No.

452
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,840
But I mean, honestly, that's probably true.

453
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,840
That did really push it over.

454
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,840
Because, yeah, because I was 86, the Soviet Union fell in 89.

455
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,840
So it was like the final countdown.

456
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:36,840
Yeah.

457
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,840
And part of it too, I didn't really get into that as much.

458
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:50,840
But the reason people found out that there was radioactivity in Chernobyl was because radioactivity was starting to appear in Sweden and Germany.

459
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:56,840
And they were reporting that and they eventually figured out that it was coming from Chernobyl.

460
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,840
Otherwise, no one would have known.

461
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,840
They would have kept it quiet to themselves.

462
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:01,840
I think maybe.

463
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,840
They would have tried for longer.

464
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,840
I think eventually it probably would have come out.

465
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,840
But it definitely wouldn't have happened as quickly.

466
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:09,840
Yeah.

467
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,840
Like Sweden, you tattletail.

468
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,840
I know Sweden is like, it's like, seriously, we don't, this is dangerous.

469
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,840
And that's so scary.

470
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:26,840
I know my sources for this were the Chernobyl podcast and TV show.

471
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:33,840
I ended up using that a lot because they were really diligent about their research and very accurate.

472
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,840
I used Wikipedia world nuclear org and CDC dot gov.

473
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,840
Wow, CDC.

474
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,840
Yeah, I wanted to get a little more information on how cute radiation sickness works.

475
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,840
Did you see pictures?

476
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,840
No, I actually didn't.

477
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:51,840
They were nice.

478
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,840
CDC was like, we're not going to show you that.

479
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,840
Wow, that was really good.

480
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,840
That was so scary.

481
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:05,840
It makes you wonder since 1986, how many people have been affected by radiation because of Chernobyl?

482
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,840
Like how much more messed up are humans because it might have just gone everywhere.

483
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:19,840
Well, there was a huge spike of cancer in the Soviet Union and the surrounding areas and unfortunately most of it was in children.

484
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,840
Oh, that's really sad.

485
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,840
Because they're just so much more sensitive.

486
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,840
Right.

487
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,840
Yeah, their little bodies aren't developed enough.

488
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,840
Yeah, not that you would wish cancer on anyone, but when it's in children, you're like, why?

489
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,840
That's just is unfair.

490
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:34,840
I know.

491
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:45,840
Yeah, it makes sense though because with radiation, if you're working for chemo or something where you're putting it in your body, it's such a small amount.

492
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,840
But when you're saying that, it's like melting.

493
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,840
It's like you're melting your insides.

494
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,840
So imagine that times a million of just being...

495
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,840
It's like you're injecting yourself with the worst chemicals ever.

496
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:58,840
Yeah.

497
00:23:58,840 --> 00:23:59,840
But you don't even see it.

498
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:00,840
I know.

499
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,840
It's really terrible.

500
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:11,840
Also, the man that ran the test, a lot of people in the Soviet Union kind of blamed Dyatlov before they found out it was a design flaw.

501
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:12,840
Yeah.

502
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,840
But I'm like, it wasn't his fault, but he sounds like he was an awful person.

503
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840
So they're like, well, it could be.

504
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,840
He never owned up to the fact that any of it was his fault.

505
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:33,840
And by all accounts, he was a complete bully to all of his staff, and they probably would have stopped the safety test if he hadn't bullied them into continuing to do it.

506
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,840
He's like, if I've learned anything from the Soviet Union, I will never admit my mistakes.

507
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:39,840
Exactly.

508
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:40,840
That's very Soviet.

509
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:41,840
Yeah.

510
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:42,840
He's like, no, I don't think so.

511
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,840
Well, that was really good.

512
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:45,840
Yay.

513
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:46,840
Thanks, Olivia.

514
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:47,840
You did your first story.

515
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:48,840
I did.

516
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,840
Do you want to take a quick break?

517
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,840
Yes.

518
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:52,840
Let's take a break and we'll be back for more.

519
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:53,840
Yes.

520
00:24:53,840 --> 00:25:03,840
So I'm going to join your story with a completely different part of the world and a different time period.

521
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:09,840
This is in particular a town that I am familiar with.

522
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,840
It's called Aberdeen.

523
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:12,840
I know that place.

524
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:13,840
Have you been there?

525
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,840
No, I just know Kurt Cobain.

526
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:16,840
Okay.

527
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:17,840
So yeah, that's what it's known for.

528
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,840
Kurt Cobain's hometown, frontman of a band you may or may not know.

529
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:24,840
Me personally?

530
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,840
No, I'm just kidding.

531
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,840
It's called Dave Girl and his friends.

532
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,840
Oh, but no, Nirvana.

533
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,840
It would be Nirvana.

534
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:39,840
The reason I'm more familiar with it because of not Kurt is because it's where my grandfather

535
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:40,840
is from.

536
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,340
And so I've always just been kind of like curious about it.

537
00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:49,340
Like I visited there a few times and one thing that really stood out to me was in the middle

538
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:53,640
of the downtown is this restaurant called Billy's Bar and Grill.

539
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,640
Naturally, when I go anywhere, you just have to look stuff up because you're like, Hey,

540
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:58,640
what's happening?

541
00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,640
Yeah.

542
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,880
Is it just my grandpa's hometown?

543
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,520
Is it just Kurt Cobain's hometown?

544
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,840
Why is this place the birthplace of grunge?

545
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:06,840
Oh, I'll tell you.

546
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,480
But I'm like, buckle up.

547
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:17,800
So this is more set in the early 1900s and Aberdeen is kind of a newish place.

548
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:23,600
I think a lot of the West is fairly new adjacent.

549
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:24,600
Oregon Trail and whatnot.

550
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,600
Right.

551
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:26,600
Yeah.

552
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,480
I mean, way before Washington was even a state, it was the Oregon territories.

553
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,520
So this is like straight up brand new.

554
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,000
Straight up.

555
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:44,320
Anyway, Aberdeen, Washington, it was incorporated as a town in 1888.

556
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:51,680
It was named after the Scottish fishing port of Aberdeen, Scotland.

557
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,200
And what's adorable is that both Aberdeens are situated at the mouth of two rivers.

558
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,720
So Aberdeen, Washington is the Shehalis and the Wishka.

559
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,960
In Scotland, it's rivers D and Don.

560
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,480
It's like D and Don in the morning, sounds like two sisters.

561
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:08,480
I know.

562
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,440
You got your River D and your River Don.

563
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,080
They're mad at each other right now.

564
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,080
They have huge hair.

565
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,000
They probably do.

566
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,120
So this is situated in Graves Harbor.

567
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:27,600
And what's cute about Scotland is like, I actually drove through Aberdeen, Scotland

568
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,280
a few years ago and I was just like, oh my goodness, it's so cute here.

569
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:38,000
I, you know, God bless you Aberdeen, Washington, but it's not that same vibe.

570
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,480
And I'll tell you why.

571
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,360
So this is situated in Graves Harbor County and in the early 20th century.

572
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:51,520
So like turn of the century really, it was the largest lumber shipyard in the world.

573
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,840
Like they were all about cutting down their trees.

574
00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:03,040
And so our story really starts in 1900, a lot of people had failed at the gold rush.

575
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,640
There were people trying to find work.

576
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:11,240
A lot of people, you know, they went up to Alaska, they were coming down, they went to

577
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,360
California, they're coming up, they're kind of meeting.

578
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:17,360
A lot of these men were good at cutting down trees.

579
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:23,240
And the East Coast and Midwest, their lumber situation is not the way it used to be.

580
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,240
Like it's really just like thinning out, it's becoming more national parks.

581
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,640
They're not as avid tree cutters as Pacific Northwest, I guess.

582
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,720
So they're seeing an influx of a lot of different ethnicities.

583
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,920
A lot of people who are just kind of migrating over, but a lot of Scandinavians, a lot of

584
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,240
German, a lot of Finns.

585
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,240
And really they were kind of drawn to the area also because it's similar to their own

586
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,240
home.

587
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,240
Makes sense.

588
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Yeah.

589
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:56,080
And by 1900, so it's been 20, well, more like 16 or so years since Aberdeen was really

590
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,760
a thing on the map, it became home to saloons, brothels, and gambling establishments.

591
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:02,760
Oh, lovely.

592
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,640
And at one point it was nicknamed the hellhole of the best way.

593
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:08,640
Oh, God.

594
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:09,640
Yeah.

595
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:10,840
And there's many reasons why.

596
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:17,640
And remember Billy's Bar and Grill, which is currently a place and I'm wearing a shirt.

597
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:18,640
I know, I see it.

598
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,040
I'm literally wearing Billy's Bar and Grill.

599
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,000
I got his shirt the last time I went.

600
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,640
It also was known, this little town was known as the Port of Missing Men and Billy's Bar

601
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:34,360
and Grill is named after Billy Goal or Ghoul, I think we looked at Abbots Ghoul, who was

602
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,320
known as the Ghoul of Grace Harbor.

603
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,640
I mean, with a name like that, you don't have a chance.

604
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:41,640
I know.

605
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,880
Yeah, I mean, and you know what's funny is when you look at Billy, like I showed you a

606
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,200
picture of him, he just looks like a nice, upstanding individual.

607
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,600
He does not look like a serial killer.

608
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,560
He looks like he would just like tell you too much about IPAs.

609
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,520
Oh, for sure.

610
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,200
Or what's a, you know, a Pilsner.

611
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,040
And I would rather die.

612
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,040
I don't care.

613
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,880
He's like, I got the thrills for the pills.

614
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:05,880
Sorry.

615
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,880
That's from Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

616
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,240
Anyway, okay.

617
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:18,800
So, so Aberdeen starts our story, but good old Billy, he's like the star of the show.

618
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,240
So this is going to be about Billy Ghoul.

619
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,080
Is he a serial killer or a working class hero?

620
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,560
And why do they still have a restaurant named after him?

621
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:29,960
I bet I can guess.

622
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,840
Yeah, I bet you can.

623
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:41,120
So Billy, the date of birth, it's really sketchy, but 1860 seems to be like, probably 1860.

624
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:46,800
I think back in the day, I don't know, like back in the day is like, oh, they didn't have

625
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:47,800
records back then.

626
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:48,800
Actually, they did.

627
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,360
I just think some people just didn't.

628
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,520
Or they're just like bad at keeping track of them.

629
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,240
And I think if you're from a certain level of like societal class, you just probably

630
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,480
didn't have access to that.

631
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:07,000
So he was probably born in Germany, but what's interesting is that he has a couple of warrants

632
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,560
for his arrest that say he was either born in Wisconsin or Bergen, Norway.

633
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:18,080
So really, Billy is a mystery, but Ghoul is a German last name.

634
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,280
And it's actually, I think, a town in Germany.

635
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,720
So I think it's safe to say he's a German immigrant.

636
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,320
In some way.

637
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:37,200
So Billy, he just really took to a life of being a mysterious sort, not much is known

638
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,160
about his early life.

639
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:45,240
The first 40 years of his life, he would answer questions about his life with a, you know,

640
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,600
a riddle or just outright lies.

641
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,040
And you're like, I just really can't take you seriously, Billy.

642
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,200
I'm sorry.

643
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,520
But he seemed like an upstanding guy.

644
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,640
He was strong.

645
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,200
He had a stocky build.

646
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,120
He was he had a clean shaven scalp, which you see in this picture.

647
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:07,200
He had a strong resemblance to any brewery owner of 2021 of Oregon.

648
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,200
100%.

649
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:09,200
Yeah.

650
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,680
He literally looks like he's going to tell you to buy Bitcoin and he has a Tesla.

651
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,840
I feel like I've met people at breweries that could be serial killers.

652
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:18,840
Yeah.

653
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,360
But it's like a subtle, like the subtle one.

654
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:21,360
Yeah.

655
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,120
Like they're not necessarily demented.

656
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,520
They're not there to make you suffer.

657
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:25,520
They just want your stuff.

658
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:26,520
The vibes are just off.

659
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:27,520
The vibes are off.

660
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:28,520
Yeah.

661
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:29,520
Please give me your stuff.

662
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:35,400
So he did not look very different from the, the timber cutters and the seamen who worked

663
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,400
in Aberdeen.

664
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,600
He just, he, he fit in.

665
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,720
No one got bad vibes from him, which, you know, he just, he, he looked the same.

666
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:44,720
I'm sorry.

667
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,200
They didn't get bad vibes from someone that would tell riddles about his work.

668
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,440
But what makes you wonder, it was called the hellhole of the Pacific.

669
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,440
And they're like, true.

670
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,440
They're like, you know what?

671
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,720
I'm like, all right.

672
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,440
He had a few stints.

673
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,320
This is where it becomes sketchy with his backstory.

674
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,680
Because of many people, including, I read the book of the port of missing men by Aaron

675
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:13,680
Goings, where he actually advocates for, for Billy, that he is a working class hero.

676
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,720
But I'm going to explain why and why some people think he's actually a serial killer.

677
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,760
I feel like I'm, for our first podcast episode, I feel like I'm doing a lot of circling.

678
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,360
I'm like, and then we're back and then we're back.

679
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,360
So now we're back.

680
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,360
It's still averaging.

681
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:28,360
It's still 1900.

682
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,360
Billy's still around.

683
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,360
He's still as a mustache.

684
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:31,360
We still don't know what he's about.

685
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:32,600
Billy, what are you about?

686
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,080
He's like, well, riddle me this.

687
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,000
So as time goes on, he leaves Germany.

688
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,160
He becomes a member of the gold.

689
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:43,960
I don't know if you say you're gold rushing.

690
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,760
Are you member of the gold rush?

691
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:46,760
Is it a club?

692
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:47,760
It's not a club.

693
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:48,760
You're just looking for gold.

694
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,760
I don't know.

695
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:50,760
I don't know.

696
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,760
I don't know enough about the gold rush.

697
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,760
I don't know.

698
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:58,360
But he ended up in the Yukon and many failed attempts, which I think a lot of people, I

699
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,480
think gold was not found by many.

700
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,760
And he ended up lighting somebody's house on fire.

701
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,400
Oh, yeah.

702
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,560
And I'm not sure if that was just frustration out of lack of gold or who's just who knows.

703
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,760
I'm mad I didn't find gold.

704
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:13,760
Right.

705
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,000
But there's not too much to be known about that.

706
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,320
So it could have been, is this just a tale or is this fact?

707
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:28,320
But as he progressed downward to Washington, he worked as a bartender, and then he was

708
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,320
employed as the union official at the sailors union of the Pacific.

709
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,640
So he would see sailors come in usually at odd hours.

710
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,360
Sailors would come in at like the middle of the night.

711
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,880
And usually a lot of times they would be alone or they would file in, look for their, they

712
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,880
would have mail that would come in, they would have very few possessions, but they would

713
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,880
have a lot of money.

714
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,920
Because you'd make money at sea and you would collect your earnings.

715
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:03,640
But so he was basically in charge of taking care of these people.

716
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:09,440
And Billy, he seemed so likable that he often would be working alone.

717
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:14,400
He was really good at his job that they felt like, oh, I don't need anyone to be watching

718
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,900
him.

719
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:20,840
He's just Billy, the main guy.

720
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:31,280
So between 1909 and 1912, while Billy is tending this operation by himself of the head of the

721
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:39,360
sailors union, Aberdeen became a pretty violent port, hence the name of port of missing men.

722
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,760
Usually sailors would not return.

723
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,200
They would go out to sea or they would come back and then they would just be gone.

724
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:52,240
Or usually if you're working as a timber cutter, you would wake up and feel like I'm not going

725
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,060
to live because my life is so hard.

726
00:35:56,060 --> 00:36:00,880
They felt like they're really like living with one foot in the grave or you'd wake up

727
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,640
and be like, is this the day I die?

728
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,040
Because it's either you're going to get cutting a tree, it's going to land on you.

729
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,200
You're going to take it to the sawmill, you're going to cut your face off.

730
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,200
I don't know.

731
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,200
Yeah.

732
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:17,880
I really noticed and this is where you feel like, oh, he was a good guy is he would advocate

733
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,120
for the working man.

734
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,520
He would see where there was a lack of safety and Osha would have a field day.

735
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,600
There's no safety procedures at all.

736
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,560
I was going to say, is he the origin of Osha?

737
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,480
I know, right?

738
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,960
But he would get frustrated with people in charge because they would not, I mean, it

739
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:36,960
would just be expendable.

740
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:37,960
Yeah.

741
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,840
There's so many men that need work that it would be like, I'm, you know, and a lot of

742
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,120
times these men would come homeless, they'd spend their money, you know, the very few

743
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,800
dollars they would earn, they would use it at the brothel or gambling.

744
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,320
So a lot of times they just be homeless.

745
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,520
And so he would start to advocate for like even a shanty town on the port to be like,

746
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,920
can we please give these men some, some space to call home before they die?

747
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,680
Well, so far he sounds good.

748
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,680
Yeah.

749
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,440
So it's kind of like, okay, you know, I see where this is coming from.

750
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,200
I really went into this thinking, okay, this is the ghoul of Grace Harbor, but really he

751
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,280
just is a nice guy.

752
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:21,200
But this is where he would kind of be a go between, between the police and the higher

753
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:27,400
ups, but he also was kind of at the same time, seeming a little bit shady.

754
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,760
The sailors would arrive to Aberdeen.

755
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,480
They would visit the sailors union soon after disembarking.

756
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,400
Really would see them collect their mail or he would help them set aside money for savings.

757
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,000
He would be on duty alone.

758
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,960
Like I said, he would turn the conversation to money and valuables.

759
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,960
And this is where it gets a little tricky.

760
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:53,120
Yes, he's being the working class hero, but it's also like he, he's got a mind for what

761
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:54,120
else can I get?

762
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,120
He's a little shady.

763
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:56,120
He's a little bit shady.

764
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,120
Yeah.

765
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,560
So he would turn the conversation to money and valuables.

766
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,840
But the sailor was passing through, Billy would recognize this person is not going to

767
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,640
be missed by anyone in the area.

768
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,640
And especially if they had a large amount of cash, it's how Billy would choose his next

769
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,760
victim.

770
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,480
So Billy would have a revolver with him, which I think is just natural working in the union

771
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:18,480
building.

772
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:19,640
You were just given a revolver.

773
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:20,640
Yeah.

774
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:26,840
Um, so when a sailor would reveal their money and their valuables, he would shoot them in

775
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,840
the forehead.

776
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:28,840
Oh my God.

777
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,680
You know, and at the same time, I'm thinking, well, back then there wasn't like a way to

778
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:40,040
silence a shotgun or a pistol, but this is a chaotic place.

779
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,040
Yeah.

780
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,120
I mean, there are literally boats coming in and out.

781
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,800
There are like horse drawn carriages or carts with, you know, tons of lumber.

782
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,800
I'm sure if they hear a loud sound, they're just like, okay, you know, probably other

783
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:54,800
people are shooting guns.

784
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,800
Exactly.

785
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,800
And I'm like, and this is like literally a, yeah, this is the hellhole.

786
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,640
So people are going to be like, Oh, it was Billy.

787
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:02,920
Who cares?

788
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,040
So he would shoot them in the forehead.

789
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,480
And then he would, there was a shoot under like his desk, basically that led right into

790
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,360
the Wishka River.

791
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,960
And he would just drag their body over, open the shoot, drop them in.

792
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,800
And it was that the boat they disembark from, they're not going back.

793
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,680
They're probably heading to Seattle or Portland or maybe even to start timber cutting because

794
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:34,120
you know, their journey is over and bodies would not be reported because no one really

795
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,840
knew they were there except for Billy.

796
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:43,280
Some reports state that Billy would use a launch to murder his victims and dump the

797
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:49,080
bodies into the harbor, which sounds a little farfetched like, like a, like a wave.

798
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,520
What's it called that old, like a, that mid evil weapon they would use to, like the catapult,

799
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,400
like a catapult, which I'm like, I think people would see that.

800
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,960
I feel like people would notice.

801
00:39:58,960 --> 00:39:59,960
Yeah.

802
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:02,840
Like he has like, it's like a, like a potato gun.

803
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,040
There's just like bodies being long in the air.

804
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,280
Which what it sounds like Aberdeen was such a rough place.

805
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,320
It wouldn't surprise me that people just saw a body lying into the water and they're like,

806
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,320
there's another one.

807
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,320
They're like, well, there's Jim.

808
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:19,320
Yeah.

809
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,080
So I don't think that, I think it was probably the shoot makes a little bit more sense.

810
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,200
The other reports state that yeah, he had the, the launch.

811
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,200
So Billy started to be suspected.

812
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,200
Eventually people did start to, to ask questions.

813
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:40,520
And the reason why is because bodies started floating up onto shore or random places.

814
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:45,440
And they, as they do, I mean, you can't just get rid of a body, Billy.

815
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,160
The, don't you know how the tides work?

816
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,520
He's like, I don't care.

817
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:49,520
Yeah.

818
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,640
And I don't know if their science was good enough to be like these, you know, there's

819
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,800
a bullet in this man or if it went through, they're like, okay, everyone has a bullet

820
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:56,800
hole.

821
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,840
Uh, they're all sailors kind of like, their pockets are empty.

822
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:01,840
Yeah.

823
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,760
So clearly this person's been robbed and murdered because of it.

824
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,920
So since he was being suspected, people started to be a little bit wary.

825
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,320
However, because he was such a working class hero, a lot of people would kind of turn a

826
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,160
blind eye like, well, you're taking care of yourself.

827
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,520
So really nothing was done to stop him.

828
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:19,520
Typical.

829
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:20,520
Yeah.

830
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:27,880
So until he had an accomplice, which is always where you just don't trust people.

831
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:28,880
Don't trust people.

832
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,720
Even if they're both shady, even if you're like, Hey, I'm a bad guy.

833
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:33,800
You're a bad guy.

834
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:34,800
Let's be bad together.

835
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,280
That's what trust the shady person even left.

836
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:38,280
No, right.

837
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,600
Because it's like, it's like kind of like once a cheater, always a cheater.

838
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,240
Like, how do you know that person's not going to cheat on you?

839
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:46,760
Well, John Klingenberg.

840
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,760
John Klingenberg.

841
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,080
He was a cheater.

842
00:41:53,080 --> 00:42:00,680
So he was Billy's accomplice and people started to assume things.

843
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,120
However, John was kind of smart.

844
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:11,400
He knew that if he said anything about Billy, Billy would probably send him to a watery grave.

845
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:16,400
Because of his big mouth, he jumped on a ship to Mexico.

846
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:22,600
But because people on the ship found out that he might have had association with Billy and

847
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,520
Billy, you know, people are starting to talk that people brought him back to Aberdeen from

848
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:28,520
that boat.

849
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,640
They're like, you're not going anywhere.

850
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,360
So John Klingenberg, not much is known about him.

851
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,680
I tried to find anything which other than his name and the fact that he knows Billy,

852
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,360
not much is known about him.

853
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:49,080
And I'm not even sure how Billy even came to know him or, you know, got him in on his

854
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,080
racket.

855
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:57,640
Like, did he oversee something and it was like, I can't handle you suddenly dying because

856
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:58,640
you're important.

857
00:42:58,640 --> 00:42:59,640
Who knows?

858
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,800
Yeah, or maybe like, maybe he saw Billy doing something.

859
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,640
Yeah, yeah.

860
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:04,800
Maybe he blackmailed him.

861
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:13,200
John Klingenberg was able to testify, sing Billy alone with his sailor, which also, I

862
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:14,440
mean, I don't know if we can trust him.

863
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,600
He might be making this up, but that's probably how he got him in the first place.

864
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,200
So this sailor that now has a name, because most of them are nameless because people don't

865
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,040
seem to care about them, which is sad.

866
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,360
Yeah, his name was Charles Hatberg.

867
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:35,160
His body had been found in the harbor next to Aberdeen and he had been reported missing.

868
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:40,640
Billy had already been arrested for this murder because people started to be suspected, but

869
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,120
they did not have any evidence that they couldn't keep him.

870
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:53,880
But because John Klingenberg had been brought back from his escape to Mexico, he could corroborate.

871
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,400
It sounds a little bit shady.

872
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,560
It seems a little bit like, how do we know?

873
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,280
He sounds like he could be like a snitch.

874
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:01,280
A little bit.

875
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,440
Like, how reliable is this source?

876
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,320
But anyway.

877
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,880
Of the bodies that came up to shore, they counted 41.

878
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:09,880
Oh my gosh.

879
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:19,520
A lot of times, when you look up Billy, it'll say that his victim numbers were in the hundreds.

880
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:27,160
But so this is where Aaron Goings, who is actually a doctor, Dr. Aaron Goings, starts

881
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,240
to intimate.

882
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,240
This is a really tough place to work.

883
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:36,240
And unless they have a bullet hole in their body, which it's hard to say if they did,

884
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,400
who knows if they had like a corner there.

885
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,920
It was a very rough place.

886
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:48,000
This is people who are working with their life in their hands.

887
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,240
These are people who they really thought they could just die at any given moment.

888
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:57,880
And it's almost like they were attributing every dead body to Billy.

889
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:06,560
And just because they have an eyewitness, this guy is not to be trusted because we don't

890
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,320
really know about him.

891
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:15,440
And if Billy is starting to make waves for trying to advocate for the working man, it

892
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,520
would be very convenient if people who had money, who could not see to lose any more

893
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:27,000
money, started to push this evidence on Billy.

894
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:32,360
Maybe he had killed a few, but 41 or up to 100.

895
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,440
It seems like that's a big stretch.

896
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,560
However, some people are like, yeah, that's just those are the facts.

897
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,840
Billy is that big of a serial killer.

898
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,440
That seems hard to believe.

899
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:43,440
Yeah.

900
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:50,920
I mean, plus people, like they had dangerous jobs or like they might have just been depressed

901
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,440
because it sounds like an awful life.

902
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:53,960
They might have died by suicide.

903
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:54,960
Yep.

904
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:55,960
Exactly.

905
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:56,960
Yeah.

906
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,120
They might have used all their money to get themselves to Alaska for the gold rush.

907
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:06,480
They lost it all and now they're stuck waiting to just die at sea and they're like, this

908
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:07,480
is it.

909
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,440
Yeah.

910
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:14,160
One other thing that was really interesting that I read about in Aaron Goeings book is

911
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:20,000
that these important businessmen who usually they didn't even live in Aberdeen, they would

912
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,280
be in Seattle and Olympia and Tacoma.

913
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:31,560
They would see this like extreme talk of getting help for the working man as leftist

914
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:32,560
speech.

915
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,720
They even tried to pass a law that if you even said anything about your working conditions,

916
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,400
you could be immediately jailed and fined.

917
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,760
So because they wanted to know a little bit more about the goings on of like this underbelly

918
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:54,360
of is Billy trying to start something by helping out his fellow man, they employed Pinkerton

919
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,600
detectives to basically become a spy.

920
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:06,840
And so what Aaron Goeings has discovered is that has a pinker tin detective drummed up

921
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,200
evidence and placed it on Billy.

922
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,240
So it's really muddy.

923
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:16,680
You can see where he might have not been a great guy.

924
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,160
It's a real gray area.

925
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,920
I mean, the first thing you hear about him is how he, you know, lit someone's house on

926
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,080
fire in Alaska before heading to Washington.

927
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:31,280
There is a trap door in the Union building and being alone with sailors with money, that

928
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,560
is an actual thing that he could have done.

929
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,280
But did he kill in the hundreds?

930
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,000
You know, who's to say?

931
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,720
But it doesn't matter because there is no justice on on either.

932
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:48,680
On either of the sides.

933
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:49,680
Yeah.

934
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:56,760
Okay, so after the Charles Hattberg murder, they also had quote unquote, I witness of

935
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,280
the murder of John Hoffman.

936
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:04,280
They said that he was injured and killed by ghoul.

937
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,320
And then he basically just floated up the next day.

938
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:14,600
But at the same time, they said that he did not have any bullet wounds in his body.

939
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:19,280
So but they, they basically whoever found the body, they were like, well, you know, Billy

940
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:20,600
didn't have his gun with him.

941
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,880
Obviously, he just beat him to death.

942
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,160
Obviously, obviously, whether it's true or not.

943
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:28,160
It's pretty obvious.

944
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,320
The Union building is an ideal location for crimes.

945
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,000
You could conceal evidence of their murders by throwing their bodies in the water.

946
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,600
Maybe they'll float up, which they probably do.

947
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,400
So it just seemed like this makes sense.

948
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,480
And since he'd be on duty alone, these are all the things that were pointing towards

949
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,800
his guild.

950
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:55,000
So John Klingenberg testified to the Charles Hattberg murder.

951
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,600
And he said that Charles Hattberg had been shot with a 38 automatic pistol.

952
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,160
But what was interesting is that the pistol had been found on his body.

953
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,160
So they said that Billy had left his gun there.

954
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:13,200
That's why they said, you know, the next person murdered was probably beaten to death.

955
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,200
So it makes sense.

956
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,040
There was no bullet.

957
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:22,000
But it's at the same time, you know, why risk it if that's what you're doing.

958
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,680
Why would you just get another pistol?

959
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:24,680
Right.

960
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:25,680
Yeah.

961
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:31,200
By February 1910, Billy Gull, Gull, I'm so sorry, Billy.

962
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:32,800
It's Gull.

963
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,440
Billy Gull had been arrested.

964
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,680
And this is for the Hattberg murder.

965
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:44,760
They did not have enough evidence for the, oh no, I lost the name of that guy.

966
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,320
Oh no.

967
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,560
Roman, I'm sorry.

968
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,480
He's like, Olivia, you did great.

969
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,880
Drew, you got to work on.

970
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:53,880
Oh my gosh.

971
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,400
What was that guy's name?

972
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:56,400
John Hoffman.

973
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,400
Oh my gosh.

974
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:58,400
Okay.

975
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:04,080
By the time John Klingenberg had been taken back and they forced, you know, forced him

976
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:12,320
to admit that he had seen Charles Hattberg shot by Billy Gull, it was December 21, 1909.

977
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:19,120
By this time, they did not have enough evidence against Gull for the Hoffman murder, but basically

978
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,880
they said that it didn't really matter because they were just going to attribute any dead

979
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,800
body they found to him.

980
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,560
So by February 1910, Billy was arrested for the Hattberg murder, though suspected for

981
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,520
41 more murders.

982
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,240
And then of course, as time goes on, they're just going to be like, whoa.

983
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:38,240
They're just going to keep at it.

984
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:43,080
And they're like, oh, unlike the Soviet Union that will keep their one amount, Billy's is

985
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,960
just going to keep going up.

986
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,520
So he was arrested in February on May 12, 1910.

987
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,360
He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

988
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:57,800
And this, I think a year prior to the sentencing, Washington had abolished their death penalty.

989
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,840
So he had just missed that.

990
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,360
I was going to say, I was surprised they didn't sentence him to death.

991
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:04,360
Yeah.

992
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,600
Like usually that would be a hanging.

993
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,680
Nope, life in prison.

994
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,520
He was taken to the state prison on June 13.

995
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:17,760
In addition to the Hattberg murder and the supposed Hoffman murder, a witness to the

996
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:23,400
Hattberg murder was shot and injured by Gull the night of the murder, somebody says.

997
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,920
And so then he was killed the next day by Klingenberg.

998
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:28,760
That's also just word of mouth.

999
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:36,480
But because somebody says this, they have now sentenced Klingenberg to 20 years in prison.

1000
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,000
They don't have the evidence for that completely though, but I feel like he probably did.

1001
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,400
Yeah, he seems a little bit shady.

1002
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:50,880
John Hoffman had been killed on December 23, 1909 and had been robbed about $400.

1003
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:55,760
That's why they were like, this is clearly a Billy thing.

1004
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:04,040
Not much is known of his remains because he was disposed near Indian Creek near the harbor.

1005
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:09,360
Yet they found a human skeleton, but they don't really know if that's Hoffman.

1006
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,720
Other corpses in the area are sub sub sub.

1007
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:13,920
Oh my gosh.

1008
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:21,160
Other corpses in the area are suggested to be victims of Billy.

1009
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,160
One of them is the body of Carl Carlson.

1010
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,960
I'm like, why do I feel like I know someone.

1011
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,600
You're like Carl Carlson.

1012
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:38,840
He was found on April 27, 1910 floating in the harbor, but they don't say how advanced

1013
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:44,840
his decay was because if you remember Billy was arrested in February.

1014
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:49,120
So they found his body in April, but they still attributed him as another victim of

1015
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,120
Billy's.

1016
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:59,880
Despite being in state prison, eventually he was transferred to an asylum for the criminally

1017
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:05,880
insane Walla Walla state penitentiary was where he was sentenced to life in prison,

1018
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:13,600
but the criminally insane is where he unfortunately contracted dementia paralytic cause by syphilis,

1019
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,240
which does not sound lovely.

1020
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:22,560
And he ended up passing away at the Eastern state hospital in Spokane on March 1927.

1021
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,760
So you know, there ends the reign of terror of Billy Ghoul, but it still seems a little

1022
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,560
bit up in the air of, you know, did this really happen?

1023
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:37,960
Yeah, he probably did some things, but what's funny on Wikipedia shows victims to in parentheses

1024
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,080
possibly a hundred plus.

1025
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:50,880
So what's what's fascinating about this is my great grandparents moved to Aberdeen in

1026
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,960
the 1920s when Billy's still alive.

1027
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:55,840
Like he's not there anymore.

1028
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,200
This you know, is why my grandfather grew up there.

1029
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,840
And it's just that that whole connection is just a little bit funny of he's it seems

1030
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:09,000
so far away, but my grandfather was alive around the time that Billy was there.

1031
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,240
Yeah, that's funny.

1032
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:12,240
Yeah.

1033
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:18,840
So in the beginning of my story, I've referenced Billy's bar and grill, which I'm not sure

1034
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:24,080
what it means when you name your restaurant after a serial killer.

1035
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,560
I'm impressed.

1036
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,560
The website of Billy's bar and grill is kind of awesome.

1037
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,600
And I'm just going to reference it says and quote.

1038
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:40,320
So yes, Billy is named after the Billy who did in fact exist in Aberdeen's colorful past.

1039
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,480
These were times when opportunists, flourished and flamboyant operators often controlled

1040
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,720
the growing towns in an area teaming with lumbering, fishing and sailing activity around

1041
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:55,480
the early part of our century, our baby faced Billy stands out as a figure of considerable

1042
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:56,480
notoriety.

1043
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:03,160
A man of dashing Savoy fair, Billy was at first admired and respected as the secretary

1044
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,640
of the local sailors union headquartered above the Grand Saloon.

1045
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:12,280
Soon, however, Billy began to make up his own rules directed by a spirit of melodrama

1046
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,320
and self serving adventure.

1047
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:20,600
Eventually, mysterious arson's murders, robberies and shootings were traced to Billy and his

1048
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,960
overly enthusiastic methods of operation.

1049
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,800
After a sensational trial, Billy was sent to prison where we're happy to report he was

1050
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,640
a model prisoner until he contracted.

1051
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,440
I thought they were saying we were happy to report he died.

1052
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:35,440
I know.

1053
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:36,440
I know.

1054
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,400
I'm like, do they like do they love Billy?

1055
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:39,480
Are they pro or are they pro?

1056
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:40,480
I know.

1057
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,680
It's just interesting.

1058
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,480
And this is my favorite part.

1059
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:50,600
Well, none of us is perfect, folks.

1060
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:56,960
And Billy in his brief but spectacular career, he at least gave it his best shot.

1061
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:57,960
Oh, no.

1062
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,480
And he shot people.

1063
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:02,560
I don't know if they did that on purpose.

1064
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:07,800
Anyway, they just reference his lucky house rules of when he was a bartender.

1065
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:13,280
And really, it just kind of goes into the portion of their restaurant of serving high

1066
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,160
quality food and beverages.

1067
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,760
They don't reference anything about not murdering anyone, which they should.

1068
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:25,080
I just think it's very interesting that Billy is alive and well.

1069
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,360
He and Kurt Cobain, the spirit of Aberdeen lives on.

1070
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,680
Unfortunately, they both died tragically.

1071
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:32,720
I know.

1072
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:39,000
But my first question, the most important one is, is the food good there?

1073
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,000
It was good.

1074
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,640
It was, it was basically pub food, which I think you can't go wrong.

1075
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:45,640
Yeah.

1076
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:46,640
No, I think it'd be worth it.

1077
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,280
It would be worth doing a podcast road trip someday.

1078
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,160
I would do a road trip with you.

1079
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,160
Yeah.

1080
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:57,160
You can visit Kurt Cobain's park and we can go to Billy's.

1081
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:58,160
Yeah.

1082
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,960
And we'll find some other third thing.

1083
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:02,960
Yeah.

1084
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:03,960
Oh, yeah.

1085
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:04,960
It's the Pacific Northwest.

1086
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:05,960
There's a lot of said.

1087
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:06,960
That's true.

1088
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:07,960
It's like a.

1089
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:13,600
Anyway, that is the story of Billy Ghoul, the ghoul of Grace Harbor.

1090
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,160
That was interesting.

1091
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:19,000
Also, one of the things, I don't know.

1092
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:25,080
I don't know what I think if he's a murderer or if he was just like a scapegoat.

1093
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,080
Right.

1094
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:30,600
But part of me is like, well, if he is alone working at this port and all these sailors

1095
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,720
are coming in, what if he killed some of them in self-defense?

1096
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:34,720
Like, I would.

1097
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:35,720
That's true.

1098
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,720
I would imagine that's probably part of why he has a pistol.

1099
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,160
Yeah.

1100
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,160
And I guess he would probably, he would think if he would report it, if it was self-defense,

1101
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,800
but it sounds like it was a pretty lawless place.

1102
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:48,800
Yeah.

1103
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:55,080
Then the police officers were kind of kept in the back pocket of people who ran the town.

1104
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:56,080
Yeah.

1105
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,760
So I don't know if they would necessarily help somebody who.

1106
00:57:58,760 --> 00:57:59,760
Yeah.

1107
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:00,760
I don't know if he did say that.

1108
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:01,760
I feel like they probably wouldn't.

1109
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:02,760
Oh, yeah.

1110
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:03,760
Report it.

1111
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:04,760
Yeah.

1112
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:05,760
That's a really good question.

1113
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:06,760
Yeah.

1114
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:07,760
I don't know.

1115
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:08,760
Just a thought.

1116
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:09,760
Yeah.

1117
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:16,440
So, this man, the one thing I was going to show you is when looking up his picture, somebody

1118
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,200
drew this picture of him.

1119
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,400
I don't know what era.

1120
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:26,800
I don't know if it's from the turn of the century when he was, you know, on trial or

1121
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:31,880
if it was more current, but this is just, I mean, now that you know what he looks like,

1122
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:36,520
this is just, this would be my 13th reason why.

1123
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:41,360
I'm like, not that I condone murder at all.

1124
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:42,360
Yeah.

1125
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:47,760
If I saw this picture of myself, I could have been like, all right, that's it.

1126
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,760
And I believe we should post this on our Instagram.

1127
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:53,760
Okay.

1128
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:54,760
Oh, yeah.

1129
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:59,080
Does it look anything like him?

1130
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,080
No, it's, no.

1131
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,880
It just is like, oh, that's the real thing.

1132
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,040
Was that their first time drawing?

1133
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:07,040
They're like, that's Billy.

1134
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:08,040
I know anyone.

1135
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:09,040
That's Billy.

1136
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,200
And Billy would be like, all right, that's it.

1137
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,440
He's like, if I ever get out, I'm coming for you.

1138
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:14,440
I'm coming for you.

1139
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,440
He's like, oh, and I got syphilis.

1140
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:18,440
Oh, man.

1141
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:23,080
I mean, I don't, I would imagine that's a pretty bad way to go.

1142
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,840
I don't like that.

1143
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:31,520
I know one time we visited Alcatraz and they were really quick to tell us that Al Capone

1144
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,560
died of syphilis and Alcatraz.

1145
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:38,680
I could not imagine a worse way to go in at least comforting place.

1146
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,440
Like, you know, I know you did some terrible things, but yikes.

1147
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:43,440
Yeah.

1148
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,440
That was pretty common back then.

1149
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,480
I think a lot of people died of syphilis.

1150
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:49,480
Yeah.

1151
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,680
Well, I know.

1152
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:58,040
And I feel like that was, that was really fun for our first, our first venture into podcasting.

1153
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:06,560
I feel like with my ADHD brain, ADHD brain, my high definition brain, nope, my ADHD brain,

1154
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:14,560
I'm going to be really thorough about writing out my notes because I felt like a few times

1155
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:15,760
it was a little clustered.

1156
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:17,280
Oh, no, you did good.

1157
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:24,960
I felt like my anxiety brain just makes me talk super fast and so then I can't catch

1158
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:25,960
my breath.

1159
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:27,960
So you're like, boron and the xenon.

1160
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,360
Sorry for having a panic attack.

1161
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:32,360
Right.

1162
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:33,360
No, you did really good.

1163
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:34,360
Thank you.

1164
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:35,360
You're like natural podcaster.

1165
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:36,360
So are you.

1166
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:37,360
Thanks.

1167
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:42,320
Do we have anything to say at the end that we want to wrap up with?

1168
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:47,480
If you're the head of a union building working alone, don't shoot anyone in the forehead.

1169
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:48,480
No.

1170
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,760
I mean, if nothing else, just because if you do it once, they're going to pin it all on

1171
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:53,760
you.

1172
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:54,760
Yeah.

1173
01:00:54,760 --> 01:01:02,240
If I've learned anything about capitalism, you cannot make your way in the world if you

1174
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,160
have rich white men pushing you down.

1175
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:06,160
Yeah.

1176
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:13,040
Just just admit your mistakes because you never know when not admitting a mistake will

1177
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:14,960
lead to a Chernobyl event.

1178
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:15,960
Yeah.

1179
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,560
Whether in your life or in the world.

1180
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:19,560
Yeah.

1181
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:20,560
Mentally emotionally.

1182
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:21,880
Just avoid your own Chernobyl.

1183
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:22,880
Yeah.

1184
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:23,880
Please don't have your own Chernobyl.

1185
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:24,880
Yeah.

1186
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:25,880
And I'm saying that to myself too.

1187
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:26,880
Oh yeah.

1188
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:27,880
Bad admitting my mistake.

1189
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:28,880
Yeah.

1190
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:29,880
Oh man.

1191
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:34,080
That was a big lesson I learned yesterday chatting with a mutual friend where I was immediately

1192
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:38,400
like, I have made a terrible mistake and I'm going to admit it.

1193
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,680
Well, you're going to have to tell me that off the pod.

1194
01:01:42,680 --> 01:02:04,640
Stay tuned for more oddities and curiosities.