I'm Olivia and I'm Drew and we are oddly curious.
We're back!
I just feel like it's been a long time.
I don't know if it has been, but we're like mentally and physically.
We are back and it's been a while.
I do think that yeah.
Time means nothing anymore.
And thank you for joining.
If you have joined.
Yes, please join us.
Just join us.
Join us.
Um, Olivia, what's new with you?
What's new with me?
I feel like I wrote some things down that I was going to mention to you on the pod.
So I need to really smart because I'm not off the cuff like me.
I was like, I'm going to, oh my gosh.
That's right.
I was going to tell you and our dear listeners about the worst shark movie I've ever seen.
Oh yeah, you're going to tell me and I'm very excited.
I know how we feel about shark movies.
Yes, I love all shark movies, but especially bad ones.
Yeah.
And I thought sharknado.
I had already seen the worst shark movie possible, which was atomic shark.
Oh yeah.
Shout out to my friend, Kelsey.
I still have not seen it.
Atomic shark.
I have looked everywhere for atomic shark.
I even tried to find it to give it to our friend as an anniversary gift because her
and I just like to have this obsession and this bond over this movie, but I couldn't
find it.
I have to look it up.
Atomic shark.
It's got to be at least on IMDB.
I think so.
But anyway, that's not the movie I want to talk about right now.
Okay.
The one I want to talk about, I watched a couple weeks ago with another friend who appreciates
bad movies, Jurassic Shark, which the name alone just lets you know it's not going to
be good.
No.
Because it kind of sounds like Jurassic Park if you had like a mouth full of corn chips
or something.
Yes.
But it was clearly filmed in Canada.
Because they're like, sorry, the shark is a boat to get you.
No, like truly, there's a few times where like one of the girls like she'll say something
and I'm like, oh, you're definitely in Canada right now.
They're like, somebody tell the prime minister about this.
But I think it's supposed to be in the US.
I don't know.
Oh, okay.
It is like somewhere between, it looks like it's a bad class project.
But then at some points you're like, I feel like this is going to turn into an adult film.
It doesn't.
It just has that kind of like a homemade vibe.
It has a homemade vibe and some of the dialogue is like, oh, that's a weird thing to say.
It's like they don't know how to, I mean, it takes, it turns out acting takes some talent
to keep learning.
But when you say things a certain way, you're like, was that supposed to be like an innuendo?
Oh, no, they literally meant it that way.
They just don't know how to convey it with their face.
Exactly.
And then like there was one scene that was inside and it was like super echoey the whole
time and then they didn't have their boom mic.
They didn't.
The shark was like such bad CGI.
Anyway, I certainly enjoyed it.
We couldn't stop laughing.
Oh, I really got to find it.
And then there's a Jurassic shark too.
We should watch it.
But because me and my friend, I am nearing 30, she's in her 30s.
We were starting to fall asleep.
Oh, okay.
We didn't get through the second one.
I was like, why is it rated that you can't watch it if you're 30?
No, we were just so tired.
We were like, oh, these sharks and, ah.
Our husbands came out and they were like, you guys are literally falling asleep right
now.
But yeah, I want to finish it because I need to know what happens.
Yeah.
When we do our wine and Taylor Swift and Shark Movie Night.
Yes, we can have wine, listen to Taylor Swift and cry and then bring ourselves back up with
bad shark movies.
That's the recipe for a winner.
Yeah.
Oh, that sounds great.
What about you?
I was like, what about me?
What have I done?
This is why I should write things down.
This is why you write things down.
I've been working a lot.
There's been an influx of COVID, which is terrible and it is affecting everyone, including
my coworkers.
I'm fine.
I think I have like a nice supply of antibodies since I literally since the beginning of this
podcast I had COVID.
And yes, I've been working a lot.
And then this Friday I'm flying to New Mexico to visit my grandparents, my San Diego transplant
grandparents and my aunt and uncle and my friends.
New Mexico is a weird place.
New Mexico could have its own podcast of things that happen in New Mexico.
Maybe we'll do a New Mexico theme.
That would be fun.
That would be awesome and very unnerving.
But maybe full of nice green chili at the same time.
So that's what I'm doing.
And other than that, my roommate got a new kitten.
He's so cute.
His name is Archie.
He's a little baby.
And my cat is really fed up with him.
He's not going to hurt him.
He just doesn't want anything to do with him.
He's just like, I'm the baby.
Yeah.
But other than that, yeah, just living life.
And I'm living life from one podcast to the next.
Me too.
This is more something that I am obsessed with right now.
But I found this Instagram account called girls who cluster.
And it's about the concept of just clustering different items throughout your house.
Like, I'm a cluster.
I didn't know that was a thing.
And it's like, all of the people submit pictures from their house, like their bedroom and stuff.
And it just all looks like it's straight out of a Sofia Coppola movie.
Oh, I like that.
And there's one particular girl that she runs the account and then she has cute merch that
you can buy that is like girls who cluster and cute stickers that you can put into your
cluster pile.
I do have a sticker cluster pile.
I've just been obsessed with clustering things around my house, which I kind of already do
anyway, but just making it more aesthetic.
So you're like, this is a cluster with a capital C.
Yes.
Wow.
Okay.
I really have to check this out because I just got a new dresser and my dresser, I clustered
the things on top.
You have to cluster your dresser.
You do.
Yeah.
I most clustering area of my house is definitely the entryway of my house.
Yes.
It has like my old vanity and it has lots of pictures and like candles and candelabras
and the mascot tour podcast.
The mascot, old wine bottles.
It's just cluster galore.
What I also appreciate about you have like a like a cute little section of things that
look like gifts that Crow would bring you.
It's kind of, I kind of gather things like a crow.
Yeah.
Okay.
Our theme song has crows in it because secretly we're Crow, we're like, I'm going to cluster
these stories together and I'm going to put my funko pops together.
Clustering is just like the girl, the girly pop version of what crows do.
Pretty much.
Yeah.
To cluster is to live.
It is.
Anyway, that's all I wanted to check about.
We're like, our lives are clustering things together and just trying to survive another
day.
We're going to make it all a beautiful cluster.
And if you're listening, please don't get COVID.
There's a, there's a influx out there.
So wash your hands, everyone.
Take precautions.
Take precautions and cluster thoughts and feelings.
And anyway, a pretty little pile.
Yeah.
But I don't, I don't really think I have anything else to add.
Okay.
Well, then we can hop into our episode and.
It's so cute.
You're like, and we're going to hop and you're like, do like a little bunny jump.
I did.
I did a little bunny thing with my hand.
This is not a visual medium, but.
Because I feel like, so we have started the themes.
This is kind of like, it started out with like missing people, but also like a cold
case, but also it went really themey.
We both picked like what could happen to you while you're camping.
It's almost like a camping cold case.
And they're both in Oregon.
What are the chances?
I know.
I love it.
But also I hate these stories.
This actually might be one of my worst stories and I apologize.
I, I mean, I hate to rank them, but I'm just thinking if this happened to me, this is a
terrible story.
This, you're like, this would make Jurassic shark feel like a day at Disneyland.
I'd rather be eaten by a CGI shark.
Yeah.
Actually, no, I'm, I'm not even kidding.
I would rather be eaten by a shark than, than what?
Yeah.
Stories.
At least the shark, you're like, oh, he's just doing his thing.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you go first.
I'm going first today.
Yes.
And I'm so excited.
And I will be talking about the Klein Falls axe attack.
So this takes place in Klein Falls, Oregon, which is in central Oregon.
Yes.
I almost said Eastern.
No, don't do it.
That is not correct.
But I, I would have realized it eventually, but my sources for this episode, I wasn't
being pedantic.
It's because I'm actually from central Oregon.
Oh, that's okay.
Yeah.
And no, for our listeners, they're like, what does she care?
Like, no, it's actually central Oregon.
It's like a running joke where people will say it's Eastern Oregon and then people in
central Oregon.
It's, it's a thing.
It's funny.
And I'm just bad at geography.
So I'm any help I can get.
I'm appreciate it.
I'm like, it actually is all, it's actually as Eastern.
It's Eastern from here.
Yeah.
I, I couldn't even tell you that.
So people tell me that way is East and I'm like, okay.
You're like, I'll take your word for it.
Because I think the rule is you're either good with left and right.
Are you good with left and right?
I am.
See, I'm bad.
I can't even, I don't even know how many times I've been like the, the right hand.
I'm like, this is my left hand.
No, but left and right is bad for me.
East and West is easy for me.
Yeah.
So maybe you can't have both.
If somebody can do both, please let us know.
Please let us know.
And also, I'm sure not everyone out there grew up watching Spongebob, but me and my husband
like to say that I'm like the episode of Spongebob where Patrick is giving directions and he's
like East, I thought you said, we, that's kind of like me giving directions.
I love that so much.
Anyway, okay.
Anyway, we're already like tangenting.
Wait, so then I would, I feel like then I'm Spongebob when he's trying to drive, like
which direction to turn.
And he's all of a sudden his like, he's like left and right.
He's like, I don't remember.
Yeah.
It's true.
I have driven with you quite a few times.
You're an excellent driver, but man, if I tell you to go left, you are going right.
Yeah.
There's no hope for me.
No, but.
But also it's better than if I drive.
We're like together we're one competent driver.
Oh gosh.
Okay.
Now that we got that out of the way, which Spongebob character are you?
Drop it in the comments.
We're like, secretly or all Squidward.
I don't even know why I'm laughing so hard.
I know.
I haven't even, okay.
Okay.
All right.
Serious starting now.
So my sources.
Oh no.
The giggles.
Oh no.
He's like, please keep it down.
What does it say?
Oh no.
We're like meme times.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry everyone.
That picture though is such a meme material.
It's like he didn't even know what he was giving the world.
You know, it's like, you know, when Karen and Georgia would always talk about like a
woman with her like Virginia's lips.
Yes, that's her.
I was already going off the rails and then you sent me careening.
This?
Yeah.
I'm like, what are the rails at this point?
But the murder she wrote podcast.
They listened to I love it because they are major tangenters.
Oh good.
I love a tangent.
Have like a 15 minute tangent about like a random story from their lives or like a heavy
metal band or something because the guy is like in the heavy metal.
And then they're like, what were we even talking?
Yeah.
And honestly, that's my favorite type of podcast, but that's just me.
They keep it.
They bring it back to the subject material when they're like Angela Lansbury.
Yeah.
Just like really hard segue.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm better now.
That was a great, that was a great one.
So my sources, your sources.
Yes.
One of them was the cold cases podcast by parkast, which is hard to say.
And then my favorite murder episode 64.
Georgia covers this case.
And one of the girls in the story, she, it seems like she does not want to be like
associated with any of the news about it and they give her a pseudonym on the parkast
episode.
So I'm just going to give her the same pseudonym.
I love that.
So, uh, what are we respectful pseudonym courtesy of Carter Roy from parkast.
What's her pseudonym?
Oh, we're going to wait and find out.
Yes.
Okay.
And I will, I will say which one is the fake name.
Okay.
I see.
Okay.
So I'm going to give you a little bit of a summary of what happened to college students
from Yale.
Terry Jance and who we will be calling on your Olson were roommates with different
backgrounds.
Terry grew up in a middle class area of Chicago and on,
yeah,
was from an upper class, uh,
Connecticut family.
And, uh,
the girls were discussing what they wanted to do over break, uh,
in 1926 and it stretches from Oregon.
Uh,
I forget what state to go through,
but it stretches from Oregon to Vermont.
And Terry and on yet,
is that the one that,
that's not the one that starts in like Newport and goes to Boston.
Probably not.
I do think they started on the coast,
but I don't know if it was Newport.
Gotcha.
Okay.
I think it's a little further.
If you're going from Oregon to Vermont,
there's so many states.
Like why, like, do we even have the time?
Seriously, I'm like,
this sounds absolutely exhausting to me.
It's like the, um, the state song.
Did you learn that in school?
If I did, I don't remember it.
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona,
Arkansas.
No, I didn't know.
I just saw that Taylor Swift knows it too.
And she's saying it to the guy on the voice.
What's his name?
Which one?
The country one.
Blake Shelton?
Blake Shelton.
That's really funny.
You're like, what is happening?
I'm so sorry.
I just derailed you.
Don't ever call me Blake Shelton again.
Don't say that to my face.
How dare you insult me?
You're being such a Blake Shelton right now.
How dare you?
Anyway, back to trans, the trans.
The trans-American.
I was like, I was saying trans-Atlantic.
No.
I kept thinking that too.
Like, trans-American.
We're going to talk in a trans-Atlantic accent.
He's like, I'm going to drive from Oregon to Vermont.
OK.
So, Terry and Anya decide that this would be a great way to see the US after hearing other
students talking about doing the trail.
And Terry is very determined to accomplish this journey.
She gets a bike trail map, plans out all of her routes and her stops, and starts saving
up before she goes and gets all of her gear ready, which this reminds me so much of one
of my friends who wanted to do the Pacific Crest Trail.
I feel like this is like if she planned this trip.
Yes.
This is how it would go.
So shout out to her.
OK.
Shout out to my other friend who actually did the Pacific Crest Trail, but she's a dork.
I'm just kidding.
Why?
I'll tell you later.
OK, I can't wait.
She wants, she's not listening to this podcast.
OK.
Anyway, Anya isn't as all in as Terry is, and she's having second thoughts about it,
but she goes anyway.
So in early June, they meet up in Chicago and they take a bus to Astoria.
That's where it starts.
Oh, Astoria.
Yes.
Which I love Astoria.
So much.
And I just watched the Goonies.
So this is perfect tie-in.
Let's go to Astoria.
We should.
It's so pretty there.
It's so pretty.
It's the oldest town in Oregon.
I didn't know that.
Because it was right at the mouth of the Columbia River and the ocean.
So it's like prime property.
Yeah.
Named after John Jacob Astor.
I was just there recently.
I learned all this.
Even if you haven't been there, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense that she knows that.
I think they named it after him and he was like, that's nice.
And he's like, I don't want anything to do with that town.
No, no, no, thanks.
I'm not coming there.
I'm coming pretty much.
So they take a bus to Astoria and they start the Trans-American Trail.
They meet a couple, Mark and Kathy, who are also making the journey and they are very
experienced bicyclists and marathoners.
I trust people named Mark and Kathy.
I know they sound like a cute couple.
They do.
I imagine them being like, I don't know, middle age, but like super fit.
Very fit.
They'll take care of you.
Yep.
Yeah.
Good sense of humor.
You would hope if you're riding together.
If you're on a bike that long, you've got to be funny.
That's just the rule.
Something funny about you.
Yeah.
And they all decide to ride together, which is a bit of a comfort to the girls so they
won't have to be completely alone.
So they start their ride along the Oregon coast and they camp overnight and Anya isn't
sure if she can make the whole trip because she's already feeling exhausted.
And then they get to, right?
Yeah, right.
I'm like, I don't know how much training they did for this.
Yeah.
Because that sounds like, like even if you're in really good shape, I feel like that'd be
so difficult.
So difficult.
Yeah.
And like doing it during a break from college, like, I don't know if it was summer break or
what.
Yeah.
They get to Central Oregon and now both girls are starting to feel how difficult it is and
the hills make it especially difficult and they feel like they're slowing Mark and Kathy
down.
So they let them know that they should split up and Mark and Kathy go ahead and they say
they're going to make it to Redmond.
But the girls decide to stop at a campground at Klein Falls State Park because they're already
getting tired and it's getting dark.
So it's dark when they arrive and they see that it's actually day use only, but Terry's
exhausted and wants to stay, but Anya feels uneasy and wants to leave, but she ends up
relenting and they stay the night.
So they pitch their tent and they crawl into their sleeping bags and they fall asleep pretty
fast.
And then when they're fast asleep, Terry hears the sound of screeching tires and all of a
sudden she feels shooting pain in her chest.
She starts to panic and she can't move.
And she discovers that she's been hit by a car and is pinned under the wheel of a pickup
truck and she's stuck in her sleeping bag and can't get out.
At first Terry thinks it must be an accident, but then she hears a car door open and slam
shut and then Terry hears Anya scream, leave us alone.
And Terry can barely breathe and she can't see without her contacts in.
She then hears seven thuds and everything goes quiet.
The driver gets back in the truck and backs up and then the tire rolls, sorry, the tire
rolls off of Terry's chest so she can take a big breath of air and then something crashes
into her head over and over.
And then she realizes that someone is hitting her with a weapon and she grabs for it and
she feels a metal blade.
She's stuck on the ground and she can't see, but she thinks that she's going to die.
And then the blows suddenly stop and the truck starts driving away.
She feels herself starting to lose consciousness and then a man is standing over her.
He's wearing clean boots, blue jeans and a button up shirt that's meticulously tucked
into his pants and he looks like a cowboy and she can't make out his face, but she
sees a bloody ax in his hand.
He raises it, lowers it and lets it hover right above Terry's heart.
And he turns around, gets in his truck and drives away.
So Terry can't believe that she's alive, but she hears Anya moaning in pain and she now
feels a sense of resolve and is determined to save herself and her friend.
So Terry is miraculously able to stand up and she goes to Anya and touches her head.
She feels blood, broken bone and a part of Anya's brain is exposed.
Oh gosh.
Poor Anya.
I know, I'm like, I can't even imagine like reaching over and like touching your friend
to see if she's okay and feeling brain.
Yeah, you're almost like, what's your immediate reaction?
Like, do I just help tuck that back in?
No, you wouldn't, but it's also kind of like, hey, let me help you.
Let me put this piece back.
It's like you kind of want to be like, I need to wrap your entire face in gauze.
I would be like so worried like what, what's going to happen?
But she also can't see because she doesn't have her contacts in.
Right, exactly.
Oh my gosh, anxiety levels.
So next she rushes and she gets her contact lenses and puts them in with her bloody fingers.
Oh no.
I know.
I'm like, I don't wear contacts, but I can only imagine.
I just have to say one time, the last time I went to the eye doctor, he was really intently
pushing contacts on me.
I think he was just trying to be helpful because one of my eyes is really bad and he's like,
you can, you don't have to glasses it up all the time.
And I don't wear glasses all the time.
It's just for like when I'm up close to things.
But he gave me like an entire office just to sit and practice and it was like an hour
had gone by and he came back and he's like, have you done it?
And like my eye was raw because I kept trying to like poke my eye with, I never got it in
there because I can't even imagine that was clean hands with like fluorescent lighting.
If my hands were bloody, I'm like, I would just not see.
That would be it.
Yeah.
You would just be walking around literally in a blur.
So she grabs her contacts in a flashlight and then she runs to the park's main road
and she sees headlights driving towards her.
I was so worried it was him.
I know that's what she's saying to herself.
Like, is this someone that's going to help me or is it the attacker?
It doesn't matter.
I need help.
So I have to go and check.
So Terry stumbles into the street covered in blood and then the window of the truck rolls
down and two teenagers are in the truck, Bill and Darlene, and they're just staring at her
shocked.
Like, can you imagine just like you're driving like down the road with your boyfriend or
girlfriend and then just like someone comes stumbling out of the woods like covered in
blood.
I would.
I don't know what I would do because I'd be so terrified.
At the same time, there's a part of me that's like this person needs help, but I'm like,
but also are they going to kill me?
Exactly.
Yeah.
Are they the person that needs help or are they going to kill me?
But thankfully they were very good teenagers, very good people, and they helped Terry go
back and get Anya and they left her in the truck along with the equipment and take them
to the nearest hospital in Redmond.
Both women received blood transfusions, but they need better medical care.
They're in Redmond.
Sorry.
Sorry, Redmond.
I mean, that's basically what they said in the story was that they needed better medical
care.
Redmond is so much better.
I grew up right next to Redmond and that was my old, old Redmond talking, new Redmond is
much different.
Yeah.
But you're going to be real smug now because they took them to St. Charles Medical Center
and Bend, Oregon.
What?
So, Terry has a broken leg, breaks in both her arms, a crushed lung.
She lost lots of blood and she needs reconstructive surgery and spends a few days on a breathing
machine, but she will live.
But she still managed to put in contact lenses, find help and run and save her friend.
She is amazing.
She also had temporarily a tire mark across her chest because the pressure was so intense
that it left a mark.
My gosh.
But they are actually more concerned about Anya because there are injuries to her skull
and her brain is severely damaged.
She underwent hours of surgery and she wakes up and she can't see or remember anything about
the attack.
Maybe for the best.
Yeah.
Some vision returns, but it's spotty and it makes driving and reading difficult and she
doesn't remember the attack and she doesn't want to.
She's grateful for the amnesia and when Terry tries to talk to her about it, she just flat
out refuses.
Terry remembers everything and recounts everything to the police, but Terry feels tied to Anya
because of the attack, but because of Anya's resistance, a rift grows between them and
they really don't have much more contact after that.
That would be really hard because that's the worst thing that's ever happened to you
and the person that shared that experience won't talk about it.
That would be hard.
And it's just like, also, I think it just depends on a person's personality too.
Some people only deal with trauma, they just shut down and they don't want to think about
it and other people are like, I need to figure this out.
So it sounds like they just had different ways of dealing with it that weren't compatible.
But Terry tries to talk about the night and client falls, but again, Anya doesn't want
anything to do with it and she feels isolated.
And then eventually the investigation dies down and the cowboy isn't caught.
Anya's blind spots never go away and she has a metal plate in her skull and Terry has scars
all over her body and her chest is permanently misshapen from where the truck crushed it.
But they both eventually return to Yale, Anya becomes a doctor and is able to practice.
She gets married and has three children and Terry moves to New York City and she does
have violent recurring nightmares and she's obsessed over anything that could cause danger.
But she's probably thinking, oh yeah, amnesia would be nice.
And then in 1990 when she was 33, she moves to LA to pursue screenwriting and Terry is
now determined to find out who did this to her and her friend.
When she's moving, she finds all of her old camping gear that was from the attack.
She decided to hold onto it and some of it is even still like there's like blood residue
still on it, but it just makes her like more angry and like more resolved to want to figure
out who did this to her.
So she calls the Dachouts DA office and requests records, but all the files had been purged
and it was long past the statute of limitations because at that time in Oregon, the statute
of limitations for attempted murder was three years.
That should not exist.
It shouldn't.
There should be no statute of any limitations.
It's like, yeah, this person didn't succeed in murdering you, but that was their intent.
But they feel really bad and it's been three years.
So they don't think you felt bad.
No.
So the first woman that she talked to though was actually mistaken and they did find files
and Terry is able to pick them up.
So she drives to Salem, Oregon to retrieve them and it's her first time back in Oregon
since the attack.
So she's feeling really uneasy, but she's determined to find out more about the case.
So police found tire tracks the evening of the attack and they interviewed witnesses
and the description of a man that was sort of close to her memory of her attacker was
described by several of the witnesses and two different men attacked women in the area
around the same time.
But police didn't investigate because why would you?
Is it like the good old boy system?
I don't know if it's like that or if it was just that it was like a really small town
and they had a small police force.
Oh yes, it was.
I will tell you.
Yeah.
Because something later in the story like leads me to believe that they just didn't have a
lot of resources, but then there's like other stuff going on too.
So there wasn't just one investigating agency that was part of the problem.
It was technically under authority of state police since it was a state park.
So it was split between local and state police and they didn't always share information with
each other.
This is like the classic thing that you always hear about in true crime that makes no sense
where it's like, oh, it's like out of their jurisdiction or it's in our jurisdiction.
So they don't share information with each other when you are working towards the same
goal.
Yes, if you have the same goal, it shouldn't matter where your little boundaries lie.
No.
If somebody was possibly going to be murdered, shouldn't that just push everything else aside?
I know.
It's ridiculous.
Yeah.
Doesn't make any sense.
No.
The story goes to the library to go through archives of news stories of the attack and
they emphasize that they were in the area that the girls were in an area that they shouldn't
have been and that they were traveling alone.
So a lot of the newspapers, it seems like we're victim blaming.
Yeah.
Classic.
But she also finds an anonymous editorial from the Bend Bulletin called Someone Knows
Alludging That It's a Local Man Who Perpetrated the Attack and Insinuating That It's an Open
Secret Who the Perpetrator Was.
This is actually kind of creepy because my dad could have known this person.
Well, we're just going to have to ask.
Let's do it.
Digger, did you know that?
Yeah.
We're going to have like a bonus episode of My Dad Knew This Man.
Oh my gosh.
I would love that.
If he knew this person, he would 100% remember because I'll get into it.
Oh, I can't wait.
Oh, I'm so excited.
But also, I'm nervous.
Yeah.
I get you.
Yeah.
So All Terri Wants Is the Truth.
So she decides to investigate on her own since she hasn't had any luck with the police.
So she introduces herself to locals as one of the women that got axed in Klein Falls,
which you can imagine people were a little bit shocked and didn't know what to do with
that information when someone says that to them.
They're like, can I buy you a cup of coffee?
Yeah, they're like, oh God, we all know about that.
But they could never probably put a face to the story.
So most people are hesitant to talk to her about what feels like old history to them.
And she spends months going between LA and Central Oregon looking for leads.
And then she eventually finds the number of Bill Penhello's mother.
He's the teenager that helps them.
But he had no interest in talking.
And he actually still has nightmares of Terri emerging from the woods covered in blood.
She's like, that's nice.
And I feel for you, but I actually had to be covered in blood and find help.
Yeah.
I understand his side, though.
I think the fact that he was a teenager at the time, I'm sure that like messes with your
brain.
Like no, like Bill, we understand.
It's okay.
But the good news is that in 1994, Terri goes to his parents' house and she meets his girlfriend,
Lorraine.
They get to talking and the two women click and Lorraine tells her there were many rumors
around town after the ax attack about one man in particular.
According to Lorraine, the morning after the ax attack, a boy named Dirk Durran drove a
pickup truck down the country roads of Redmond, Oregon.
Dirk, D-U-R-A-N.
I think it's with a D at the end.
Oh, Durrand.
Yeah.
Not like the band Durran.
Not Durran.
Durran.
That's my understanding is it's not like that.
Okay.
He was only 17, but he was already drunk.
While you're talking, I'm going to text my mom to see what she says.
He swerved as he made his way toward the local seed fields.
For country kids, it was a hangout spot and there was enough land, a pond, and privacy
for them to do whatever they wanted to do.
Red flag.
Right.
It's already a red flag.
When he drove up, he saw his friends and other kids gathered in the field and he stumbled
out of his truck and saw his girlfriend standing nearby.
She could tell he was drunk and he was high on volume and she grabbed the handle of vodka
that was in the back of his truck and poured out the rest of it and filled it with water.
It was good for her.
But, uh-oh.
When he noticed that the rest was gone, he grabbed her and pinned her to the ground,
kicking her in the head over and over, and he followed her into the pond and held her
face beneath the water.
His friends didn't stop him, but two younger girls did who were about 13 or 14 and they
came after him and were pelting him with sticks and stones.
I love those girls.
Then the seed field boss came out and he let his girlfriend go.
She swam away.
What the heck is wrong?
Dirk.
So much.
Dirk.
She swam away, but she was struggling to breathe and she was so badly injured that she had
to get medical attention.
Later that day, Redmond police took him into custody and he was detained for the weekend,
but never charged for the assault.
They were like, now you won't do that again, Dirk.
Right.
Definitely won't do that again.
His parents paid for his girlfriend's medical bills as basically the only consolation.
Oh gosh.
But I'm like, good for those teenage girls.
It is like, it's always other girls that are going to be the ones looking out for you.
Always.
So make sure to be a girl's girl, ladies.
Don't just hang out with guys.
Yeah.
Protect girls.
Yeah.
Protect other girls.
Even if you don't like the other girls, protect them.
Loreen was adamant that this boy was one of the, was the one local thought was responsible
for the attack and he has a record of fighting, substance abuse and abuse of women and girls.
But Terry was still unsure about this.
She said her attacker looked like a grown man to her, not a 17 year old.
But Loreen said that he looked older than his age and he grew up working on a farm and
he was strong and matched witness descriptions.
He was also known to be extremely neat.
His clothes never had a wrinkle on them.
Oh, that's the thing she noticed.
He was always fastidiously tucked neatly into his jeans, just like Terry's attacker.
So Terry follows this lead and keeps in touch with Loreen and she starts to gather more
information about this man.
Even some of his friends said that he was cruel and that they were afraid of him and
people in the small town believe that he's guilty and he had even said to some people
that he got rid of his axe because he had hurt some people with it and his nickname around
town was Hatchet Man.
So they be knowing.
Hatchet Man.
Yeah.
I feel like that's not a good nickname.
That's not a good nickname.
No.
So Loreen said a week after the axe attack, people saw blood on the back of his pickup
and he was known to carry an axe with him.
But just like he had said, it disappeared after the attack.
And she had a conversation with his ex-girlfriend, the one that he nearly drowned.
And she says that when she took the vodka out of his truck that day, she noticed that
his toolbox was gone, which struck her as odd because he was a farm boy and he always
had his tools with him.
His girlfriend then later went to the scene of the crime two days after the attack and
noticed the tire tracks.
She said that she knew they belonged to him and people wondered how she would know because
it's hard to identify tire tracks, but she said that he had tires that didn't match so
the tracks were asymmetrical.
She also said that he could go from being, yes ma'am, thank you ma'am, to Satan in his
eyes.
Wait, so his clothes are neat, but his tires didn't match?
Embarrassing.
And Satan in his eyes.
Gosh.
Terry wondered why he would do it.
Maybe it was a crime of opportunity, but some claim that him and his girlfriend got in
a huge fight that night and he was drunk and out of anger, he took his anger out on these
two random women since, I don't know, maybe he decided that one time to spare his girlfriend.
Men will drive out in the middle of nowhere and run over girls and hit them with axes,
axes before getting therapy.
Truly.
I mean, not all of them.
Not all of them.
Just be careful.
Yeah.
Maybe, maybe look a little inward.
Maybe if someone's rolling up to, you know, a gathering and they're stumbling drunk out
of their pickup truck, maybe don't hang out with them.
Yeah.
I mean, not blaming this girl because she was literally like a teenager.
Right.
Yeah.
And she was also trying to help him.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Some adults should have intervened.
Yes, for sure.
With so much suspicion on this man, the police never questioned him about the axe attack.
One claimed that an officer from Redmond PD said that they all knew who was responsible,
but they couldn't prove it.
In May 1995, Terry went to Oregon State Police headquarters and told them everything that
she knew.
They remind her that the statute of limitations expired in 1980, but she believes that in
the years since the attack, he has abused countless other women and she wants to stop
him from hurting other women, not just get justice for herself and Anya.
So the state police agree to follow up and they track him down.
He was living in Washington State at the time with his wife and children and he agrees to
take a polygraph test and he says that he's innocent and the results of the test seemingly
confirmed this, but then police learned that he had ingested alcohol and muscle relaxers
before the test and the results were deemed inconclusive.
For those that don't know, first of all, polygraphs are not admissible in court, but
a lot of times it's just used as a barometer to see if they're guilty or not, but it doesn't
actually measure that, it measures your stress levels.
So that's why alcohol and muscle relaxants would make him not stressed and give a false
positive.
Right.
I also randomly saw something when I was little that was like things you can learn to get
out of things, I don't know.
And it was like, if you squeeze your toes together during a polygraph, it helps you
relax because you're focused elsewhere.
I don't know why that struck with me.
Like in the back of my mind, I'm like, gotta keep that information for later.
What?
No, I don't.
We would have gotten along as children.
That is the type of thing I thought of too.
And my parents are like, what is wrong with you?
I'm like, why are you worrying about that?
I'm like, you never know.
You never know.
I also learned how to get out of a zip tie, depending on if it was behind my back or in
front of me.
Oh my gosh, life changing when I found out that you could kick out the backlight of
a car and like, you know, like the John Mulaney.
I'm like, it's either we learned it from Unsolved Mysteries or John Mulaney taught us.
I personally learned it from Psych.
I did too.
That's so funny.
You never go to a second location.
Yeah.
And you keep an empty wallet with you so you can throw it.
What was that?
What did he say?
I forget what he...
The money clip.
Money clip.
But what was, um, Bittenbinder, what was the...
Street smart.
That's what we learned.
We learned our own street smart.
You want it?
Go get it.
Street smart.
Oh my gosh.
I need to rewatch that.
Me too.
So, um, he takes a second polygraph test and this time it shows deception and he breaks
down and says not a single day goes by that he doesn't think about the axe attack at Klein
Falls.
Oh really?
But he doesn't confess.
He just alludes to the Klein Falls attack.
But this time they can't use those results either because he used methamphetamines before
the exam.
Oh my gosh.
This guy can't stay off drugs.
This man needs to stay away from any kind of substance of any kind.
Seriously.
So, he sits for another polygraph in June 1996 but he becomes so belligerent that they
are unable to administer the test.
He's definitely hiding something but they're unsure how to prove it.
And then fall 1996, Terry gets a call that he was taken into custody after pointing a
gun at a hunting buddy of his and forcing him to drive around.
I'm sure he did.
Can you imagine you're just like this guy's buddy and he's just like drive me around.
And you're like I would do this without a gun.
I know.
Why do you need the gun?
He's like I don't know.
So, Terry attends his grand jury hearing and he turns around and stares straight at her
with an icy look and she refuses to break eye contact and then he turns around but she's
unsure if he recognizes her or if he's just kind of a jerk.
She needed to do the Robert De Niro look from Meet the Parents.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
I do that all the time.
He is found guilty of unlawful use of a firearm and coercion and he's given five years in prison
followed by two years of legal supervision.
Terry's happy that he has any time behind bars and he maintains his innocence but Terry
goes public with her accusations toward him.
And Terry was a part of a campaign to get the statute of limitations on attempted murder
extended and now there is no time limit on prosecution for attempted murder in Oregon.
Good.
However, it's not retroactive so it doesn't affect her case.
I don't like that.
But I think it's really great that she just did that for other people.
Yeah, she did.
What a wonderful person that she knows it's not going to help her but she wants to help
other people.
Terry is a real girl's girl.
She is.
And then in 2006, Terry published a book called Strange Piece of Paradise recounting her attack
and the emotional aftermath.
And unfortunately, Anya never comes to any of Terry's signings and they still don't have
any contact.
But in 2011, Terry does an interview with PBS and they ask her if she could ever forgive
her attacker.
And Terry says, can I ever under any circumstance forgive this man?
I wonder if life is long enough to atone for crimes that he has done.
In this case, I would say no.
A single lifetime, the years he has left on this planet would not be enough.
And that is the case of the Klein Falls ex attack.
Wow.
That was great.
Good job.
And I just think, I mean, both of the girls are amazing because like the other girl, you
just got to deal with it in whatever way you can.
Yeah.
And it was awesome that she was able to go on and lead a normal life.
But I just think it's great that Terry was able to help other people get justice.
She like advocated for that.
Yeah.
And I really want to read her book now.
Me too.
Yeah.
I understand what she was saying at the end because he ruined both of their lives.
Yeah.
It's like, she's like, I don't know if I have room for that.
And I'm like, sorry to this man.
I know this man, but sorry to this man.
Did it say what prison he went to?
It didn't.
Because he might have gone to where I might be talking about next.
I don't know if it was in Oregon or Washington.
He was living in Washington at the time.
And I think the crime that he was prosecuted for was in Washington.
Gotcha.
But either way, better than nothing.
Yeah, exactly.
Wow.
Yeah.
That was, that was good.
Thank you.
Do you want to take a quick break?
Yes, I do.
Break time.
Do we need a clap?
Do we need a clap again?
Okay.
One, two, three.
I still don't understand how it works.
It's above my head, right?
So I'm ready.
Yeah.
Okay.
Olivia, I am going to tell you about the unsolved disappearance and murders of the
Cowden family.
Okay.
And it's a little bit similar to our theme, in a sense.
It's just funny that we picked something that was so Oregon and campy.
I know.
Campy.
Camping related.
My sources are a strange outdoors article at grunge.com article written by Jane Mendoza.
An episode of the trail went cold podcast by Robin order and Wikipedia.
Good old wiki.
Okay.
So what was supposed to be a fun camping experience for the Cowden family turned tragic
when they disappeared from their campsite under very unusual circumstances.
And it would be months before the remains were discovered.
So the family's disappearance resulted in one of the largest search efforts in Oregon
history and their murders have been described as one of the state's most haunting and baffling.
Do you know the story?
I don't think I know the story at all.
I was trying to remember and I don't think I know it.
I didn't know either and it was quite interesting and disturbing.
So yes.
This case received nationwide attention at the time of its occurrence and the murders
have been profiled in numerous national media articles through the New York Post, New York
Times and others.
Ann Rule true crime writer wrote a column about this tragic story for the New York Daily
News and would later devote a chapter about it in her book titled but I trusted you.
Shout out Ann Rule.
Which I don't think I ever have ever read it.
Okay.
I'm going to either because I'm a little scared.
Let's get the clap.
It's going to be too loud.
Hey, I'm going to tell you something about.
What are you going to tell me?
I'm going to tell you the unsolved disappearance and murders of the Cowden family.
Okay.
This is all brand new information.
This is, it's actually kind of funny but not, I mean it's like the opposite of funny but
it's like interesting that we both picked camping and Oregon for this.
So get ready for that.
My sources are a strange outdoors article, a grunge.com article written by Jean Mendoza.
The trail went cold podcast episode by Robin Warder and Wikipedia.
Awesome.
So Olivia, what was supposed to be a fun camping experience for the Cowden family turned
tragic when they disappeared from their campsite under very unusual circumstances.
It would be months before their remains were discovered.
And have you heard this before?
I have not but I'm already bummed out.
Yes.
I don't know either when I did my research and I was, I went from intrigue to I'm really
bummed out but it is worth telling.
So here we go.
The Cowden's disappearance resulted in one of the largest search efforts in Oregon history
and their murders have been described as one of the state's most haunting and baffling.
The case received nationwide attention at the time of its occurrence and their murders
have been profiled in numerous national media such as New York Post and New York Times.
Ann Rule, the true crime writer, wrote a column about this tragic story for the New York Daily
News and would later devote a chapter about it in her book.
But I trusted you.
Shout out Ann Rule.
Ann Rule.
I still have not read an Ann Rule book.
Me either.
Maybe I'll start with this one.
Okay.
So the Cowden's were a young family that lived in White City, Oregon, which is a town northeast
of Medford.
Okay.
The family consisted of 28-year-old Richard who worked as a logging truck driver, which
is like the most Oregon job you can have.
Yeah, seriously.
His wife was 22-year-old Belinda and they had two children, five-year-old David and
five-month-old Melissa.
Oh my gosh.
I mean, this is not relevant to the story at all, but I cannot imagine having two young
children at my current age, let alone 22.
Hey, life is different in the 70s.
Yes.
I mean, good for them.
Right, exactly.
Just not for me.
Not for you.
Or for me.
Yeah.
I'm like, I'm too young for that and then I realize how much older I am than Belinda.
Okay.
So this family, they loved to camp together.
It was said they spent a lot of time in nature, as most Oregonians do, and they were very
familiar and comfortable with the outdoors.
On Labor Day weekend in 1974, they went camping in the Siskew Mountains near Carberry Creek
in the town of Copper, Oregon.
And the plan was to be out in the mountains from August 30th, which is actually today as
well.
Oh, that's weird.
It is weird.
It's like, to September 1st, 1974.
So literally today, 49 years ago.
Man, this is just like, in a long list of weird things that have been happening this
week.
Yeah, it's been kind of a glitch in the Matrix week for us.
Because the sidebar, when Olivia mentioned Klein Falls earlier today, our mutual friend
texted me a picture of Klein Falls that she was there today.
Yeah.
So the universe is just like, we support your episode.
Yeah.
The universe is like, we've subscribed and reviewed your podcast.
So just so we know where we're at for us and our listeners, the Siskew Mountains are a
coastal subrange of the Klamath Mountains and are located in Northwestern California
and Southwestern Oregon, they extend 100 miles from the east of Crescent City, California,
which is on the coast, northeast along the north side of the Klamath River into Josephine
and Jackson counties in Oregon.
The mountain range forms a barrier between the watersheds of the Klamath River to the
south and the Rogue River to the north.
So this is a popular camping mountain range as it encompasses two national forests and
the Pacific Crest Trail follows a portion of the range.
So it's beautiful, ideal for camping.
However, very remote and not very well populated, which is just a little disconcerting sometimes.
Red flag.
The town of Copper actually no longer exists as it was.
That's why I haven't heard of it.
Right, exactly.
It was inundated with water to create Applegate Lake in 1980.
So this camping trip for the Cowdons was very spur of the moment.
Initially, Richard's plan was to spend the weekend transporting gravel to their property
and working on their driveway.
But the truck he was going to use to haul the gravel, which was one of his employers,
ended up breaking down.
So they decided to make the most of the weekend and they went on a camping trip to the Siskiu
Mountains.
That's just like one of those weird life things where, you know, your plans just don't work
out and it just like changes the whole trajectory of your life.
Yeah.
That's upsetting.
And usually you hope it's for the better.
Not this time.
And what we're going to learn is not this time.
So Richard and Belinda took their children and their basset hound Droopy.
Oh, with them.
Droopy.
I saw a picture of him.
He's very adorable.
On August 30th, they made their way to a remote camping spot near Copper and Setup Camp.
The majority of the weekend was uneventful.
It was said Richard and David fished together while Belinda relaxed with the baby.
On Sunday, September 1st, Richard, David and Droopy went on a short walk, the mile walk
from their campsite to the Copper General Store at about nine in the morning to buy
a carton of milk.
They left the store and headed back to their campsite and this is the last sighting of
any members of the Cowden family.
I mean, alive.
I should.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
That evening, Belinda's mother Ruth Grayson, who lived less than a mile from the campground,
was expecting the family to come over for dinner while they were on their way home to
White City.
When they failed to show up and after she had waited a few hours, she went over to the
campsite to see if there was a problem.
When she arrived, there was no sign of the family and the truck was parked and unlocked
and the keys were on the picnic table.
There was a plastic dishpan full of cold water which lay on the ground and Belinda's purse
was in plain sight on the table.
A diaper bag, a camp stove were all set up.
There was the half finished carton of milk.
And strangely, there was Richard's expensive watch and his wallet on the ground, which
his wallet still contained $23.
That's so weird that like, I'm guessing whoever hurt them, you know, left all that behind.
Oh, yeah.
The truck appeared untouched and contained their clothing with only their bathing suits
missing.
So from what Ruth gathered, it seemed they had gone swimming one final time but had not
returned back to the campsite.
Considering the time, it seemed odd to Ruth as it was, you know, getting later in the
day.
So after waiting for them to return for about an hour, she left the campground to notify
the authorities after which the sheriff and troopers arrived.
When the police arrived at the scene, officers searched the area until it grew so dark they
could no longer see a thing.
Lieutenant Mark Kesar, who headed the case at first, would later state that the investigation
had been delayed for maybe a day because of the lack of indication that anything violent
had occurred at the campsites.
It was so untouched.
Yeah.
I thought this was funny.
A state trooper named Officer Erickson recalled, quote, that camp was spooky, even the milk
was still on the table.
End quote.
Out of everything, he's like, my God, the milk.
He's like, no one leaves their milk out.
No, I know.
And I'm like, this man has had a bad milk experience.
We all have.
He's like, I've had bad milk.
This is no one would just leave their milk out.
My God, the milk.
Like I feel like parents with two young children, like you're not going to leave anything out.
No, no, exactly.
So the following morning on September 2nd, the Cowden's pet Bassetown droopy was found
scratching at the front door of the Copper General Store.
Baby.
I know.
I'm so glad that droopy was OK.
I know.
It was said he seemed upset and looked exhausted.
There was still no sign of his family.
Where some campers would say they caught sight of droopy walking up and down the creek various
points the day before looking as if he was searching for his family.
I know.
I'm going to cry.
I'm like, I bet I'm sure droopy had a really nice life after that, but that just breaks
my heart.
I want to be clear to our listeners that I am not just sad because droopy is sad, but
he was obviously trying to alert people that something was wrong.
Yeah, droopy's like, if only you could just pay attention to what I'm trying to say.
Read my mind.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Eventually, due to the nature of the mystery and the possibility of a crime, the Sheriff's
Office requested help from District 3 Office of the Oregon State Troopers.
As mentioned before, the search for the Cowden family was one of the largest in Oregon history
and included state and local police.
And eventually the Explorer Scouts, the United States Forest Service, and the Oregon National
Guard, as well as hundreds of volunteers.
The U.S. Forest Service searched 25 miles of road and trail surrounding the dirt, or
the dirt, the campsite, and helicopters and planes were flown over the area equipped
with infrared imaging, and they focused on dirt that had been recently overturned, which
I thought was interesting.
Despite the large search effort, no sign was found apart from droopy.
Police interviewed over 150 people for any information, and many were either near or
at the campsite the same time.
A local farmer shared information to the police that he spoke to a family visiting from Los
Angeles who had arrived to the area on September 1st.
They said, while walking in the park that evening, they witnessed two men and a woman
parking nearby in a pickup truck.
The father of this family said that they acted like they were waiting for us to leave, and
frankly, they made us so nervous we moved on.
This location of where this pickup truck was was approximately halfway between the campsite
and where they were ultimately found, but it still wasn't much to go off of.
By September 7th, the official search was called off, but friends and relatives of the
family spent many weekends and vacation time continuing to look.
Authorities were baffled.
The family had little debt, they were not behind in any payments, and Richard made more than
enough money to support his family.
So it seemed unlikely they had any reason to just voluntarily disappear.
And it didn't seem like a robbery, row, row, robbery, my gosh, rup-row, because as stated
before, there was a wallet, there was a watch, Belinda's purse, so many things left behind.
And there were no bodies in the creek which ruled out accidental drowning.
So what happened to that?
Yeah, especially since they were in their swimming clothes too.
Yeah, you would exc- okay, maybe they were swimming, something happened, nope.
So despite the official search being called off, of course, multiple agencies including
Oregon State troopers, Jackson County's Sheriff's Office, and Central Point Police still kept
searching for months.
And Oregon State Police Detective Richard Davis had two recruits come in January and
offered to go up to the Applegate Valley to look for buzzards because buzzards would lead
them to a body.
Makes sense.
But he said it was January and buzzards are migratory, so they hadn't seen one in the
Rogue Valley or Applegate Valley since early November, so they didn't have much to go off
up there.
But he also stated a few early suspects were quickly eliminated with no new leads.
And so eventually the case went cold for months and officers began to lose hope.
They would get really odd tips here and there from people stating they saw the Cowdins in
Seattle or San Francisco, but of course it was not them.
It wasn't until seven months later, right when Richard Davis took over the case as the
lead detective, that two campers from Washington made a gruesome discovery.
Up a game trail from their campsite was a human skull, and beyond that, the rest of
a man's body was tied to a tree.
It was later identified as Richard Cowden.
He was seven miles from his campsite.
About a hundred feet away under a rock in a cave on the hillside was Richard's wife,
son, and baby.
Davis said they bagged everything up all the way down to the mineral soil, but since evidence
was scarce, several months of exposure to the elements, they were not too hopeful.
All that was left, Davis says, was a single bullet belonging to a Marlin manufactured 22
caliber rifle.
So now they were looking for at least someone who owned and purchased this sort of gun.
And through dental records, the family was positively identified.
Stories revealed Belinda and five year old David had died as the result of a 22 caliber
gunshot wound and baby Melissa had died from severe head trauma.
Oh, baby.
That just breaks my heart.
It's also upsetting to me, like, anytime there's like a whole family that dies like that where,
like they're separating the father, because like, what are you doing to the rest of the
family that you feel they need to separate the father?
Yeah.
Are you making him watch?
Yeah.
Or are you like, you're too strong.
I need to incapacitate you now.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't even want to think about it.
I actually went down this rabbit hole in my brain and I was like, no, I can't do that.
But yes, they were able to determine the causes of death, except for Richard, but it was because
he was most exposed to elements.
Yeah.
There was an option of thinking Richard murdered his own family.
It's like a murder suicide.
And tied himself to the tree.
Right.
Yeah.
They were just, I think they were grasping at straws.
Yeah.
Could he have?
No.
Detective searched the area for a gun or a weapon.
If he was indeed responsible for the death of his family and his own suicide, then some
sort of weapon would be around.
But there was no gun or weapon, only a bullet.
And of course, he did not tie himself to a tree.
Authorities believe that Richard and David returned to the camp after their trip to the
store and the family went swimming in adjacent Carberry Creek later that morning.
A short time later, probably before noon, the family was abducted at gunpoint and most
likely by someone they did not know.
Based on the location of detectives suspected, or, oh my gosh, based on location comma, detectives
suspected that the person responsible was perhaps local or at least knew of the area
because this was a pretty remote cave.
Yeah.
After the family's remains were recovered, a resident of Grants Pass who had volunteered
in the search told police he had searched that cave before where the bodies were found.
But he said in 1974 and September, they were not there at that time.
To confirm the story, the police had the man take them to the cave where he had searched
and it was indeed the same cave.
So this meant that the bodies had been moved there post-mortem.
Oh, weird.
Everything about it is just, there's like, there's so many questions that pop up and yeah.
Yeah.
You'll keep wondering.
I'm gonna be thinking about it.
Oh yeah, for sure.
As far as suspects, one name came up almost immediately and stuck around after all suspects
had been exhausted.
Dwayne Lee Little.
He had been paroled from the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem in May of 1974, three
months prior to the Cowden's disappearance.
And after his release, he moved to Southern Oregon to live with his parents.
Dwayne had been in prison because on November 2, 1964, he had murdered and posthumously
sexually assaulted a teenager named Orla Faye Phipps.
He was only 15 at the time.
Oh my gosh.
Not to dwell on him too much, but when he was seven, he had a head wound and to the
point where he had to wear a helmet because his head had an indentation.
So I'm just like, there's a correlation.
When people have had trauma, just look out, people.
Yeah.
Maybe it's time to, I don't know.
I don't know.
Somebody we know would say send him back.
I'm just kidding.
So despite being so young, he was still sentenced to life in prison.
Yeah.
And he was the youngest person to be incarcerated at ever in history at Oregon State Penitentiary.
But after nine years in prison because of good behavior, just the tale is old as time,
he was released because of course he was.
I'm like, you know what?
I mean, certain crimes I can see like for good behavior, but murdering and then assaulting
someone.
Yeah.
That's a life for good reason.
Like oh, good job.
You didn't get any fights in prison.
That doesn't mean you're not going to murder someone.
No.
Yeah.
Okay.
So in addition to all of this, state police were able to determine that little had been
in copper, the town of copper over the same Labor Day weekend at the approximate time
the family was killed.
This all came to light when Little's girlfriend told law enforcement that she had seen him
with a.22 caliber gun during Christmas of 1974.
She decided to rat him out because she caught him cheating.
That was the only reason, you know.
This man has a girlfriend.
Two girls.
Not just one, but two.
They're like, hey, can I see your head indentation one more time?
Oh, yeah.
So access to a gun would revoke his parole.
However, when they brought him into questioning, police asked him to do a lie detector test
about the Cowden's disappearance in order to avoid gun charges.
Little refused the polygraph.
And on January 12th, 1975, his parole was revoked and he was sent back to prison.
Good.
I realize that there's a lot of different like reasons as to why someone would forego
a polygraph because I mean, what if the chance there is off chance he's not at all related
to this crime?
He would be instantly the number one person.
Yeah.
If he agreed to do it.
But at the same time, it's like he violated his parole.
He's a garbage person.
Yeah.
What does it matter?
So it, yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, who cares?
Dwayne.
Police made the correlation between the gun.
Little had in his possession and the gunshot wounds on the same members of the Cowden family.
But they had no evidence otherwise.
And of course, Little was paroled again on good behavior April 26, 1977.
Oh, good.
Yeah.
Don't worry.
It doesn't last long.
Hi, Henry.
Hi, Kitty.
On June 2, 1980, he picked up a pregnant 23 year old girl named Margie Hunter, whose
car had broken down on I-5 near Tigard, which is near Portland.
I do have to say Robin Warder, who does the Trail Went Cold podcast.
I believe he's Canadian.
He called it Teaguard.
Teaguard.
Which is really kind of cute.
That is cute.
So Tigard or Tigard.
So Dwayne offered to drive her home.
Naturally, he did not drive her home.
Instead, he took her down a secluded road to then sexually assault her, beat her, and
leave her for dead.
But she survived.
Oh, good.
Because she's amazing.
Her and her baby survived.
Thank goodness.
And thanks to her, Little was charged and convicted of sexual assault, kidnapping, and attempted
homicide, and thus sentenced to three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of
parole, there's no more good behavior.
Wouldn't it be great though if they had just kept him and then that woman didn't have to
endure that?
Do you want to know the worst part about this?
Oh, no.
Dwayne's wife was pregnant at the time he assaulted this pregnant girl.
What the frick?
There are no- And also again, he has a wife.
Yeah.
I'm like, first of all, okay, who is marrying him?
So I have no words.
I mean- Yeah, I- Yeah.
That's all I can say.
Police believed that the two men and woman in the truck reported by the Los Angeles family
earlier that we talked about at the campground were in fact little and his parents as their
truck matched the description provided by the family.
And he and his parents denied any knowledge of the Cowden's disappearances.
However, a minor who owned a cabin nearby claimed they had stopped there on Monday, September
2nd in 1974, the day after the Cowden's were reported missing.
And they had proof of this because they signed the guest book he kept for visitors.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
The general consensus is the uneasiness that family from California felt is they probably-
They might have had bodies in the back of that pickup waiting to dispose of them.
Also, that means his parents were involved too.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's creepy.
I wasn't going to dwell too much on him because it's like, you know-
Garbage.
Yeah.
But he has a very messed up home life to the point where his dad was generally not well
mentally and his mom was overly protective.
Oh, that's a bad quote.
Yeah, and she actually called her boy perfect.
She also was stated saying that she would never believe her son did anything wrong until
he actually confessed.
So try to keep yourself in his mom's good graces.
He's like, I've never done anything wrong in my life.
And she's like, I know this and I love you.
Yeah.
We're like, ma'am, ma'am, please.
Please stop.
Yeah.
So, now he is in the Oregon State Penitentiary.
His cellmate at one point, Floyd Forsberg, claimed that he overheard litter-
He is litter.
He's litter.
He's a little bit litter.
But yeah.
He heard little confessing to the Cowden's murder.
But Forsberg, unfortunately, was known to be unreliable as he himself had confessed
to crimes that he had nothing to do with.
Yeah.
Which is like, oh, Floyd, we were rooting for you.
Plus prison snitches, if they're getting a deal.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Little suss.
Exactly.
So it turns out that Dwayne was never cooperative with mental health treatment.
And he has always refused to discuss any of the murders he was accused of.
Probably because he's like, my mom will be mad at me.
Yeah.
I'll be a perfect boy.
Why don't you just be a litter person?
Yeah.
Dwayne Lee Little is still incarcerated at the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem.
Like he literally listened to this episode and he could hear us call him a garbage person.
I'm okay with that.
Me too.
I'm like, Dwayne, please just, please just give it up.
Yeah, life.
And he will never be paroled again.
So will we ever get information about him being involved with the Cowden family or any
more information as to what happened to this poor family in Southern Oregon?
One can only hope.
And that is the tragic story of the mysterious disappearance and murders of the Cowden family.
Well, that was very upsetting.
I know.
Reading about it, it just kept making me more and more upset.
And when you look at pictures, of course they didn't show any pictures of the bodies,
but just seeing Droopy's little face and then seeing a mugshot of Dwayne, you're just like,
why?
Yeah.
I guess it's frustrating when people feel like they have the right to other people.
Yeah.
No, it says nothing.
Just keep it to yourself.
Yeah.
Just a sweet little family that's just trying to have a little nice weekend together.
And it's just, it's frustrating when like we talked about earlier, like that cruel twist
of fate of he had original plans that weekend of like working on his driveway.
That truck broke down and they're like, well, let's go camping.
It's like, oh man, everything could have been so much different.
Yeah.
So bad.
So anyway, that was, that's that.
And that was a, what was the theme of our episode?
Cold cases.
Cold cases, but it's kind of like a cold case slash.
Oregon camping.
Camping.
Yeah.
Just be careful when camping.
I've, a few times I've dry camped, which is the kind where you're not in a campground
and it's like, you have no amenities and you kind of rough it.
And I was uncomfortable the whole time.
Or be like me and just don't camp.
Yeah.
And like the last time I camped, I was in a legit campsite.
It was, I actually liked it so much.
Like yeah, you don't have as much of like the roughing it, but you literally have neighbors.
You have people all around you.
Yeah.
I just, I feel like it's wise to just go where there are people.
Yeah.
Even though people sometimes can be the worst.
True.
Or like when I see people go in like big groups, like of big families or like a big friend
group, I feel like that's good.
You know, you have like lots of buddies with you.
Yeah.
You can jump whoever tries to come for you.
Yeah.
But I don't think that'll be me anytime soon camping unless my husband convinces me.
No.
Yeah.
We can go on a nice nature walk around other people.
Yeah.
And then we can just like go stay in a hotel or something.
Yeah.
And have a glass of wine after.
Yeah.
And listen to Taylor Swift.
And watch them, a terrible shark movie.
Yeah.
Like full circle.
Bring it back.
Well, this was a nice episode despite the gruesome details.
Yes.
And I'm really excited for whatever our next theme is for next time.
I know.
Me too.
I'm like, you guys don't know.
And we don't know either.
And maybe there's a chance it could be a little lighthearted next time.
We don't know.
We'll find out.
You'll never decide what our brains will.
You'll never decide.
You never know what we'll decide.
Yeah.
And you might not ever decide what our brains will do either.
No.
Or if you want to listen to us.
But if you could, that would be kind of a cool power.
Someone's just like sending us a mind message.
They're like, they're like, next year do your taxes early.
I'm like, thank you, person.
I'm like, I know.
I always think that to myself and then I never do.
No.
Same.
Yeah.
Mel, do you have anything to add before we wrap this guy up?
I don't think so.
I can't think of anything new with the pod or anything.
If you have any thoughts, questions, maybe hopefully not complaints, but you know, whatever
you are free to do what you want, you can email us oddlycuriouspodcastatgmail.com.
But also, one of my favorite things that I am going to steal from another podcast.
If you don't like us, you don't have to listen.
And I truly don't mean that in a mean way.
Like, if I don't like a podcast, I don't.
I stop listening.
I don't complain.
Leave a review.
I just am like, this isn't for me.
This isn't for me.
And that's cool.
Yeah.
It's not like a restaurant.
You won't be getting sick.
No.
You just don't have to say anything.
You just move on.
Yeah.
And be like, forget we ever existed.
Yeah.
I forgot that you existed.
It all comes back to Taylor Swift.
It's a T-swift.
But yeah, I think that's it.
Okay.
So, be careful if you go camping and use the buddy system.
And take care of your friends, even if they don't want to talk to you again after you've
had a traumatic experience.
Yeah.
Just, you know, everyone deals with trauma and life differently.
And that's okay.
And we love you.
We love you.
And if you are a violent murderer.
We don't love you.
Don't get out of prison early because of good behavior.
Your good behavior has us fooled and it's not real.
No.
You can't lie to us.
No.
And yes, oh yeah, back to that.
We do love you.
Thank you so much.
Goodbye.
Everybody, teach me when to get to school.
Students, how many more people would you like to have in school?