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I'm Olivia and I'm Drew and we are oddly curious.

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We're back!

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I just feel like it's been a long time.

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I don't know if it has been, but we're like mentally and physically.

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We are back and it's been a while.

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I do think that yeah.

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Time means nothing anymore.

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And thank you for joining.

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If you have joined.

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Yes, please join us.

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Just join us.

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Join us.

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Um, Olivia, what's new with you?

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What's new with me?

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I feel like I wrote some things down that I was going to mention to you on the pod.

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So I need to really smart because I'm not off the cuff like me.

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I was like, I'm going to, oh my gosh.

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That's right.

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I was going to tell you and our dear listeners about the worst shark movie I've ever seen.

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Oh yeah, you're going to tell me and I'm very excited.

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I know how we feel about shark movies.

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Yes, I love all shark movies, but especially bad ones.

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Yeah.

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And I thought sharknado.

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I had already seen the worst shark movie possible, which was atomic shark.

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Oh yeah.

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Shout out to my friend, Kelsey.

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I still have not seen it.

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Atomic shark.

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I have looked everywhere for atomic shark.

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I even tried to find it to give it to our friend as an anniversary gift because her

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and I just like to have this obsession and this bond over this movie, but I couldn't

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find it.

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I have to look it up.

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Atomic shark.

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It's got to be at least on IMDB.

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I think so.

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But anyway, that's not the movie I want to talk about right now.

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Okay.

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The one I want to talk about, I watched a couple weeks ago with another friend who appreciates

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bad movies, Jurassic Shark, which the name alone just lets you know it's not going to

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be good.

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No.

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Because it kind of sounds like Jurassic Park if you had like a mouth full of corn chips

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or something.

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Yes.

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But it was clearly filmed in Canada.

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Because they're like, sorry, the shark is a boat to get you.

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No, like truly, there's a few times where like one of the girls like she'll say something

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and I'm like, oh, you're definitely in Canada right now.

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They're like, somebody tell the prime minister about this.

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But I think it's supposed to be in the US.

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I don't know.

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Oh, okay.

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It is like somewhere between, it looks like it's a bad class project.

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But then at some points you're like, I feel like this is going to turn into an adult film.

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It doesn't.

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It just has that kind of like a homemade vibe.

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It has a homemade vibe and some of the dialogue is like, oh, that's a weird thing to say.

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It's like they don't know how to, I mean, it takes, it turns out acting takes some talent

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to keep learning.

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But when you say things a certain way, you're like, was that supposed to be like an innuendo?

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Oh, no, they literally meant it that way.

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They just don't know how to convey it with their face.

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Exactly.

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And then like there was one scene that was inside and it was like super echoey the whole

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time and then they didn't have their boom mic.

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They didn't.

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The shark was like such bad CGI.

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Anyway, I certainly enjoyed it.

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We couldn't stop laughing.

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Oh, I really got to find it.

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And then there's a Jurassic shark too.

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We should watch it.

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But because me and my friend, I am nearing 30, she's in her 30s.

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We were starting to fall asleep.

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Oh, okay.

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We didn't get through the second one.

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I was like, why is it rated that you can't watch it if you're 30?

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No, we were just so tired.

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We were like, oh, these sharks and, ah.

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Our husbands came out and they were like, you guys are literally falling asleep right

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now.

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But yeah, I want to finish it because I need to know what happens.

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Yeah.

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When we do our wine and Taylor Swift and Shark Movie Night.

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Yes, we can have wine, listen to Taylor Swift and cry and then bring ourselves back up with

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bad shark movies.

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That's the recipe for a winner.

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Yeah.

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Oh, that sounds great.

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What about you?

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I was like, what about me?

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What have I done?

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This is why I should write things down.

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This is why you write things down.

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I've been working a lot.

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There's been an influx of COVID, which is terrible and it is affecting everyone, including

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my coworkers.

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I'm fine.

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I think I have like a nice supply of antibodies since I literally since the beginning of this

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podcast I had COVID.

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And yes, I've been working a lot.

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And then this Friday I'm flying to New Mexico to visit my grandparents, my San Diego transplant

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grandparents and my aunt and uncle and my friends.

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New Mexico is a weird place.

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New Mexico could have its own podcast of things that happen in New Mexico.

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Maybe we'll do a New Mexico theme.

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That would be fun.

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That would be awesome and very unnerving.

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But maybe full of nice green chili at the same time.

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So that's what I'm doing.

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And other than that, my roommate got a new kitten.

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He's so cute.

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His name is Archie.

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He's a little baby.

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And my cat is really fed up with him.

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He's not going to hurt him.

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He just doesn't want anything to do with him.

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He's just like, I'm the baby.

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Yeah.

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But other than that, yeah, just living life.

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And I'm living life from one podcast to the next.

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Me too.

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This is more something that I am obsessed with right now.

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But I found this Instagram account called girls who cluster.

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And it's about the concept of just clustering different items throughout your house.

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Like, I'm a cluster.

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I didn't know that was a thing.

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And it's like, all of the people submit pictures from their house, like their bedroom and stuff.

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And it just all looks like it's straight out of a Sofia Coppola movie.

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Oh, I like that.

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And there's one particular girl that she runs the account and then she has cute merch that

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you can buy that is like girls who cluster and cute stickers that you can put into your

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cluster pile.

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I do have a sticker cluster pile.

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I've just been obsessed with clustering things around my house, which I kind of already do

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anyway, but just making it more aesthetic.

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So you're like, this is a cluster with a capital C.

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Yes.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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I really have to check this out because I just got a new dresser and my dresser, I clustered

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the things on top.

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You have to cluster your dresser.

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You do.

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Yeah.

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I most clustering area of my house is definitely the entryway of my house.

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Yes.

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It has like my old vanity and it has lots of pictures and like candles and candelabras

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and the mascot tour podcast.

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The mascot, old wine bottles.

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It's just cluster galore.

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What I also appreciate about you have like a like a cute little section of things that

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look like gifts that Crow would bring you.

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It's kind of, I kind of gather things like a crow.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Our theme song has crows in it because secretly we're Crow, we're like, I'm going to cluster

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these stories together and I'm going to put my funko pops together.

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Clustering is just like the girl, the girly pop version of what crows do.

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Pretty much.

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Yeah.

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To cluster is to live.

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It is.

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Anyway, that's all I wanted to check about.

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We're like, our lives are clustering things together and just trying to survive another

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day.

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We're going to make it all a beautiful cluster.

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And if you're listening, please don't get COVID.

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There's a, there's a influx out there.

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So wash your hands, everyone.

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Take precautions.

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Take precautions and cluster thoughts and feelings.

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And anyway, a pretty little pile.

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Yeah.

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But I don't, I don't really think I have anything else to add.

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Okay.

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Well, then we can hop into our episode and.

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It's so cute.

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You're like, and we're going to hop and you're like, do like a little bunny jump.

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I did.

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I did a little bunny thing with my hand.

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This is not a visual medium, but.

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Because I feel like, so we have started the themes.

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This is kind of like, it started out with like missing people, but also like a cold

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case, but also it went really themey.

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We both picked like what could happen to you while you're camping.

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It's almost like a camping cold case.

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And they're both in Oregon.

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And they're both in Oregon.

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What are the chances?

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I know.

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I love it.

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But also I hate these stories.

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This actually might be one of my worst stories and I apologize.

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I, I mean, I hate to rank them, but I'm just thinking if this happened to me, this is a

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terrible story.

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This, you're like, this would make Jurassic shark feel like a day at Disneyland.

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I'd rather be eaten by a CGI shark.

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Yeah.

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Actually, no, I'm, I'm not even kidding.

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I would rather be eaten by a shark than, than what?

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Yeah.

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Stories.

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At least the shark, you're like, oh, he's just doing his thing.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So you go first.

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I'm going first today.

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Yes.

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And I'm so excited.

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And I will be talking about the Klein Falls axe attack.

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So this takes place in Klein Falls, Oregon, which is in central Oregon.

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Yes.

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I almost said Eastern.

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No, don't do it.

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That is not correct.

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But I, I would have realized it eventually, but my sources for this episode, I wasn't

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being pedantic.

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It's because I'm actually from central Oregon.

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Oh, that's okay.

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Yeah.

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And no, for our listeners, they're like, what does she care?

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Like, no, it's actually central Oregon.

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It's like a running joke where people will say it's Eastern Oregon and then people in

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central Oregon.

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It's, it's a thing.

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It's funny.

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And I'm just bad at geography.

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So I'm any help I can get.

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I'm appreciate it.

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I'm like, it actually is all, it's actually as Eastern.

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It's Eastern from here.

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Yeah.

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I, I couldn't even tell you that.

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So people tell me that way is East and I'm like, okay.

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You're like, I'll take your word for it.

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Because I think the rule is you're either good with left and right.

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Are you good with left and right?

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I am.

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See, I'm bad.

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I can't even, I don't even know how many times I've been like the, the right hand.

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I'm like, this is my left hand.

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No, but left and right is bad for me.

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East and West is easy for me.

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Yeah.

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So maybe you can't have both.

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If somebody can do both, please let us know.

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Please let us know.

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And also, I'm sure not everyone out there grew up watching Spongebob, but me and my husband

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like to say that I'm like the episode of Spongebob where Patrick is giving directions and he's

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like East, I thought you said, we, that's kind of like me giving directions.

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I love that so much.

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Anyway, okay.

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Anyway, we're already like tangenting.

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Wait, so then I would, I feel like then I'm Spongebob when he's trying to drive, like

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which direction to turn.

259
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,080
And he's all of a sudden his like, he's like left and right.

260
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,680
He's like, I don't remember.

261
00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:55,680
Yeah.

262
00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:56,680
It's true.

263
00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:58,240
I have driven with you quite a few times.

264
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:04,080
You're an excellent driver, but man, if I tell you to go left, you are going right.

265
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,080
Yeah.

266
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,800
There's no hope for me.

267
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:07,800
No, but.

268
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,920
But also it's better than if I drive.

269
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,640
We're like together we're one competent driver.

270
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,640
Oh gosh.

271
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:16,640
Okay.

272
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,440
Now that we got that out of the way, which Spongebob character are you?

273
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,440
Drop it in the comments.

274
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,440
We're like, secretly or all Squidward.

275
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,440
I don't even know why I'm laughing so hard.

276
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,440
I know.

277
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:30,440
I haven't even, okay.

278
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:31,440
Okay.

279
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:32,440
All right.

280
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:33,440
Serious starting now.

281
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:34,440
So my sources.

282
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:35,440
Oh no.

283
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:40,440
The giggles.

284
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,440
Oh no.

285
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:48,440
He's like, please keep it down.

286
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,440
What does it say?

287
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,440
Oh no.

288
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:58,440
We're like meme times.

289
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,440
Oh, sorry.

290
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,440
Sorry everyone.

291
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:09,440
That picture though is such a meme material.

292
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,440
It's like he didn't even know what he was giving the world.

293
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,440
You know, it's like, you know, when Karen and Georgia would always talk about like a

294
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,440
woman with her like Virginia's lips.

295
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,440
Yes, that's her.

296
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:26,440
I was already going off the rails and then you sent me careening.

297
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,440
This?

298
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,440
Yeah.

299
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:51,440
I'm like, what are the rails at this point?

300
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,440
But the murder she wrote podcast.

301
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,440
They listened to I love it because they are major tangenters.

302
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,440
Oh good.

303
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,440
I love a tangent.

304
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,440
Have like a 15 minute tangent about like a random story from their lives or like a heavy

305
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,440
metal band or something because the guy is like in the heavy metal.

306
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,440
And then they're like, what were we even talking?

307
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:12,440
Yeah.

308
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,440
And honestly, that's my favorite type of podcast, but that's just me.

309
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,440
They keep it.

310
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,440
They bring it back to the subject material when they're like Angela Lansbury.

311
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:21,440
Yeah.

312
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,440
Just like really hard segue.

313
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:24,440
Yeah.

314
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:25,440
Okay.

315
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:26,440
I'm better now.

316
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,440
That was a great, that was a great one.

317
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,440
So my sources, your sources.

318
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:31,440
Yes.

319
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:38,440
One of them was the cold cases podcast by parkast, which is hard to say.

320
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,440
And then my favorite murder episode 64.

321
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,440
Georgia covers this case.

322
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:50,440
And one of the girls in the story, she, it seems like she does not want to be like

323
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:56,440
associated with any of the news about it and they give her a pseudonym on the parkast

324
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:57,440
episode.

325
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,440
So I'm just going to give her the same pseudonym.

326
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,440
I love that.

327
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,440
So, uh, what are we respectful pseudonym courtesy of Carter Roy from parkast.

328
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,440
What's her pseudonym?

329
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:09,440
Oh, we're going to wait and find out.

330
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:10,440
Yes.

331
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:11,440
Okay.

332
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:12,440
Okay.

333
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,440
And I will, I will say which one is the fake name.

334
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:15,440
Okay.

335
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:16,440
I see.

336
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:17,440
Okay.

337
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:24,440
So I'm going to give you a little bit of a summary of what happened to college students

338
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:25,440
from Yale.

339
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:31,440
Terry Jance and who we will be calling on your Olson were roommates with different

340
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:32,440
backgrounds.

341
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,440
Terry grew up in a middle class area of Chicago and on,

342
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:37,440
yeah,

343
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:38,440
was from an upper class, uh,

344
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,440
Connecticut family.

345
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,440
And, uh,

346
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,440
the girls were discussing what they wanted to do over break, uh,

347
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,440
in 1926 and it stretches from Oregon.

348
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:50,440
Uh,

349
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:51,440
I forget what state to go through,

350
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,440
but it stretches from Oregon to Vermont.

351
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:55,440
And Terry and on yet,

352
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,440
is that the one that,

353
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,440
that's not the one that starts in like Newport and goes to Boston.

354
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:02,440
Probably not.

355
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,440
I do think they started on the coast,

356
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:06,440
but I don't know if it was Newport.

357
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:07,440
Gotcha.

358
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:08,440
Okay.

359
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:09,440
I think it's a little further.

360
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,440
If you're going from Oregon to Vermont,

361
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,440
there's so many states.

362
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,440
Like why, like, do we even have the time?

363
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:17,440
Seriously, I'm like,

364
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,440
this sounds absolutely exhausting to me.

365
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,440
It's like the, um, the state song.

366
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,440
Did you learn that in school?

367
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,440
If I did, I don't remember it.

368
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,440
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona,

369
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:29,440
Arkansas.

370
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:30,440
No, I didn't know.

371
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,440
I just saw that Taylor Swift knows it too.

372
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,440
And she's saying it to the guy on the voice.

373
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,440
What's his name?

374
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,440
Which one?

375
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:39,440
The country one.

376
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,440
Blake Shelton?

377
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,440
Blake Shelton.

378
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,440
That's really funny.

379
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,440
You're like, what is happening?

380
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,440
I'm so sorry.

381
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,440
I just derailed you.

382
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,440
Don't ever call me Blake Shelton again.

383
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,440
Don't say that to my face.

384
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,440
How dare you insult me?

385
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,440
You're being such a Blake Shelton right now.

386
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,440
How dare you?

387
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,440
Anyway, back to trans, the trans.

388
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,440
The trans-American.

389
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,440
I was like, I was saying trans-Atlantic.

390
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:07,440
No.

391
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:08,440
I kept thinking that too.

392
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:09,440
Like, trans-American.

393
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,440
We're going to talk in a trans-Atlantic accent.

394
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,440
He's like, I'm going to drive from Oregon to Vermont.

395
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:16,440
OK.

396
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,440
So, Terry and Anya decide that this would be a great way to see the US after hearing other

397
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,440
students talking about doing the trail.

398
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,440
And Terry is very determined to accomplish this journey.

399
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:34,440
She gets a bike trail map, plans out all of her routes and her stops, and starts saving

400
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:40,440
up before she goes and gets all of her gear ready, which this reminds me so much of one

401
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,440
of my friends who wanted to do the Pacific Crest Trail.

402
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,440
I feel like this is like if she planned this trip.

403
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:47,440
Yes.

404
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:48,440
This is how it would go.

405
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,440
So shout out to her.

406
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:51,440
OK.

407
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,440
Shout out to my other friend who actually did the Pacific Crest Trail, but she's a dork.

408
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,440
I'm just kidding.

409
00:17:58,440 --> 00:17:59,440
Why?

410
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,440
I'll tell you later.

411
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:02,440
OK, I can't wait.

412
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,440
She wants, she's not listening to this podcast.

413
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,440
OK.

414
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:14,440
Anyway, Anya isn't as all in as Terry is, and she's having second thoughts about it,

415
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,440
but she goes anyway.

416
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,440
So in early June, they meet up in Chicago and they take a bus to Astoria.

417
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,440
That's where it starts.

418
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:23,440
Oh, Astoria.

419
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:24,440
Yes.

420
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:25,440
Which I love Astoria.

421
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,440
So much.

422
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,440
And I just watched the Goonies.

423
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,440
So this is perfect tie-in.

424
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:30,440
Let's go to Astoria.

425
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:31,440
We should.

426
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:32,440
We should.

427
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:33,440
It's so pretty there.

428
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:34,440
It's so pretty.

429
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,440
It's the oldest town in Oregon.

430
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,440
I didn't know that.

431
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:43,440
Because it was right at the mouth of the Columbia River and the ocean.

432
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,440
So it's like prime property.

433
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:46,440
Yeah.

434
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,440
Named after John Jacob Astor.

435
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:49,440
I was just there recently.

436
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,440
I learned all this.

437
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,440
Even if you haven't been there, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense that she knows that.

438
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,440
I think they named it after him and he was like, that's nice.

439
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,440
And he's like, I don't want anything to do with that town.

440
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,440
No, no, no, thanks.

441
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:03,440
I'm not coming there.

442
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:04,440
I'm coming pretty much.

443
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,440
So they take a bus to Astoria and they start the Trans-American Trail.

444
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:16,440
They meet a couple, Mark and Kathy, who are also making the journey and they are very

445
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,440
experienced bicyclists and marathoners.

446
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,440
I trust people named Mark and Kathy.

447
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,440
I know they sound like a cute couple.

448
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:24,440
They do.

449
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,440
I imagine them being like, I don't know, middle age, but like super fit.

450
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:28,440
Very fit.

451
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:29,440
They'll take care of you.

452
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:30,440
Yep.

453
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:31,440
Yeah.

454
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:32,440
Good sense of humor.

455
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,440
You would hope if you're riding together.

456
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,440
If you're on a bike that long, you've got to be funny.

457
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,440
That's just the rule.

458
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:41,440
Something funny about you.

459
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:42,440
Yeah.

460
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,440
And they all decide to ride together, which is a bit of a comfort to the girls so they

461
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,440
won't have to be completely alone.

462
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,440
So they start their ride along the Oregon coast and they camp overnight and Anya isn't

463
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,440
sure if she can make the whole trip because she's already feeling exhausted.

464
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,440
And then they get to, right?

465
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,440
Yeah, right.

466
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,440
I'm like, I don't know how much training they did for this.

467
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:05,440
Yeah.

468
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,440
Because that sounds like, like even if you're in really good shape, I feel like that'd be

469
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:10,440
so difficult.

470
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:11,440
So difficult.

471
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:12,440
Yeah.

472
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,440
And like doing it during a break from college, like, I don't know if it was summer break or

473
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:18,440
what.

474
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,440
Yeah.

475
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,640
They get to Central Oregon and now both girls are starting to feel how difficult it is and

476
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,440
the hills make it especially difficult and they feel like they're slowing Mark and Kathy

477
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:30,440
down.

478
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,940
So they let them know that they should split up and Mark and Kathy go ahead and they say

479
00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:40,440
they're going to make it to Redmond.

480
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:45,840
But the girls decide to stop at a campground at Klein Falls State Park because they're already

481
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,320
getting tired and it's getting dark.

482
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,940
So it's dark when they arrive and they see that it's actually day use only, but Terry's

483
00:20:53,940 --> 00:21:00,040
exhausted and wants to stay, but Anya feels uneasy and wants to leave, but she ends up

484
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,440
relenting and they stay the night.

485
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,320
So they pitch their tent and they crawl into their sleeping bags and they fall asleep pretty

486
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:08,400
fast.

487
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,680
And then when they're fast asleep, Terry hears the sound of screeching tires and all of a

488
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,600
sudden she feels shooting pain in her chest.

489
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,440
She starts to panic and she can't move.

490
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,680
And she discovers that she's been hit by a car and is pinned under the wheel of a pickup

491
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,040
truck and she's stuck in her sleeping bag and can't get out.

492
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,440
At first Terry thinks it must be an accident, but then she hears a car door open and slam

493
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,160
shut and then Terry hears Anya scream, leave us alone.

494
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,080
And Terry can barely breathe and she can't see without her contacts in.

495
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,600
She then hears seven thuds and everything goes quiet.

496
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:56,080
The driver gets back in the truck and backs up and then the tire rolls, sorry, the tire

497
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:01,800
rolls off of Terry's chest so she can take a big breath of air and then something crashes

498
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,560
into her head over and over.

499
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,920
And then she realizes that someone is hitting her with a weapon and she grabs for it and

500
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,120
she feels a metal blade.

501
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:17,240
She's stuck on the ground and she can't see, but she thinks that she's going to die.

502
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,920
And then the blows suddenly stop and the truck starts driving away.

503
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,320
She feels herself starting to lose consciousness and then a man is standing over her.

504
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:32,720
He's wearing clean boots, blue jeans and a button up shirt that's meticulously tucked

505
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,560
into his pants and he looks like a cowboy and she can't make out his face, but she

506
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,200
sees a bloody ax in his hand.

507
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,920
He raises it, lowers it and lets it hover right above Terry's heart.

508
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,120
And he turns around, gets in his truck and drives away.

509
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:53,560
So Terry can't believe that she's alive, but she hears Anya moaning in pain and she now

510
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,520
feels a sense of resolve and is determined to save herself and her friend.

511
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:05,360
So Terry is miraculously able to stand up and she goes to Anya and touches her head.

512
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:10,400
She feels blood, broken bone and a part of Anya's brain is exposed.

513
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:11,400
Oh gosh.

514
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:12,400
Poor Anya.

515
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,680
I know, I'm like, I can't even imagine like reaching over and like touching your friend

516
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,280
to see if she's okay and feeling brain.

517
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,600
Yeah, you're almost like, what's your immediate reaction?

518
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,560
Like, do I just help tuck that back in?

519
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,200
No, you wouldn't, but it's also kind of like, hey, let me help you.

520
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,800
Let me put this piece back.

521
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,840
It's like you kind of want to be like, I need to wrap your entire face in gauze.

522
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,600
I would be like so worried like what, what's going to happen?

523
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,560
But she also can't see because she doesn't have her contacts in.

524
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:43,560
Right, exactly.

525
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,480
Oh my gosh, anxiety levels.

526
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:52,960
So next she rushes and she gets her contact lenses and puts them in with her bloody fingers.

527
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:53,960
Oh no.

528
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:54,960
I know.

529
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,160
I'm like, I don't wear contacts, but I can only imagine.

530
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:06,440
I just have to say one time, the last time I went to the eye doctor, he was really intently

531
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,320
pushing contacts on me.

532
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,920
I think he was just trying to be helpful because one of my eyes is really bad and he's like,

533
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,680
you can, you don't have to glasses it up all the time.

534
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,320
And I don't wear glasses all the time.

535
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,520
It's just for like when I'm up close to things.

536
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:28,240
But he gave me like an entire office just to sit and practice and it was like an hour

537
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,840
had gone by and he came back and he's like, have you done it?

538
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:36,080
And like my eye was raw because I kept trying to like poke my eye with, I never got it in

539
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:41,360
there because I can't even imagine that was clean hands with like fluorescent lighting.

540
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:43,800
If my hands were bloody, I'm like, I would just not see.

541
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:44,800
That would be it.

542
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:45,800
Yeah.

543
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,760
You would just be walking around literally in a blur.

544
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:56,080
So she grabs her contacts in a flashlight and then she runs to the park's main road

545
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,400
and she sees headlights driving towards her.

546
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,240
I was so worried it was him.

547
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:01,880
I know that's what she's saying to herself.

548
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,640
Like, is this someone that's going to help me or is it the attacker?

549
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:06,640
It doesn't matter.

550
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:07,640
I need help.

551
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,800
So I have to go and check.

552
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,600
So Terry stumbles into the street covered in blood and then the window of the truck rolls

553
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,080
down and two teenagers are in the truck, Bill and Darlene, and they're just staring at her

554
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,080
shocked.

555
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:26,120
Like, can you imagine just like you're driving like down the road with your boyfriend or

556
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:31,520
girlfriend and then just like someone comes stumbling out of the woods like covered in

557
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:32,520
blood.

558
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:33,520
I would.

559
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,480
I don't know what I would do because I'd be so terrified.

560
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,120
At the same time, there's a part of me that's like this person needs help, but I'm like,

561
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:41,600
but also are they going to kill me?

562
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,600
Exactly.

563
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:43,600
Yeah.

564
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,840
Are they the person that needs help or are they going to kill me?

565
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:54,280
But thankfully they were very good teenagers, very good people, and they helped Terry go

566
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:59,320
back and get Anya and they left her in the truck along with the equipment and take them

567
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,920
to the nearest hospital in Redmond.

568
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,800
Both women received blood transfusions, but they need better medical care.

569
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:07,800
They're in Redmond.

570
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:08,800
Sorry.

571
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:09,800
Sorry, Redmond.

572
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,720
I mean, that's basically what they said in the story was that they needed better medical

573
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:15,720
care.

574
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,720
Redmond is so much better.

575
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,560
I grew up right next to Redmond and that was my old, old Redmond talking, new Redmond is

576
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:22,560
much different.

577
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,560
Yeah.

578
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,120
But you're going to be real smug now because they took them to St. Charles Medical Center

579
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:28,600
and Bend, Oregon.

580
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,600
What?

581
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:30,600
What?

582
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,440
So, Terry has a broken leg, breaks in both her arms, a crushed lung.

583
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:42,160
She lost lots of blood and she needs reconstructive surgery and spends a few days on a breathing

584
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,960
machine, but she will live.

585
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:51,800
But she still managed to put in contact lenses, find help and run and save her friend.

586
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,160
She is amazing.

587
00:26:53,160 --> 00:27:00,000
She also had temporarily a tire mark across her chest because the pressure was so intense

588
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,000
that it left a mark.

589
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,000
My gosh.

590
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:11,000
But they are actually more concerned about Anya because there are injuries to her skull

591
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,280
and her brain is severely damaged.

592
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:19,360
She underwent hours of surgery and she wakes up and she can't see or remember anything about

593
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:20,360
the attack.

594
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,360
Maybe for the best.

595
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:23,360
Yeah.

596
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:29,240
Some vision returns, but it's spotty and it makes driving and reading difficult and she

597
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,400
doesn't remember the attack and she doesn't want to.

598
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,560
She's grateful for the amnesia and when Terry tries to talk to her about it, she just flat

599
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,560
out refuses.

600
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:44,800
Terry remembers everything and recounts everything to the police, but Terry feels tied to Anya

601
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:51,400
because of the attack, but because of Anya's resistance, a rift grows between them and

602
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,320
they really don't have much more contact after that.

603
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,840
That would be really hard because that's the worst thing that's ever happened to you

604
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,960
and the person that shared that experience won't talk about it.

605
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:00,960
That would be hard.

606
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,960
And it's just like, also, I think it just depends on a person's personality too.

607
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,640
Some people only deal with trauma, they just shut down and they don't want to think about

608
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,360
it and other people are like, I need to figure this out.

609
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:18,960
So it sounds like they just had different ways of dealing with it that weren't compatible.

610
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,680
But Terry tries to talk about the night and client falls, but again, Anya doesn't want

611
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,720
anything to do with it and she feels isolated.

612
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:33,480
And then eventually the investigation dies down and the cowboy isn't caught.

613
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:39,320
Anya's blind spots never go away and she has a metal plate in her skull and Terry has scars

614
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,840
all over her body and her chest is permanently misshapen from where the truck crushed it.

615
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:50,400
But they both eventually return to Yale, Anya becomes a doctor and is able to practice.

616
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,720
She gets married and has three children and Terry moves to New York City and she does

617
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,800
have violent recurring nightmares and she's obsessed over anything that could cause danger.

618
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,840
But she's probably thinking, oh yeah, amnesia would be nice.

619
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:13,320
And then in 1990 when she was 33, she moves to LA to pursue screenwriting and Terry is

620
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,960
now determined to find out who did this to her and her friend.

621
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,040
When she's moving, she finds all of her old camping gear that was from the attack.

622
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,560
She decided to hold onto it and some of it is even still like there's like blood residue

623
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:35,240
still on it, but it just makes her like more angry and like more resolved to want to figure

624
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,640
out who did this to her.

625
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:43,840
So she calls the Dachouts DA office and requests records, but all the files had been purged

626
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:49,320
and it was long past the statute of limitations because at that time in Oregon, the statute

627
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,560
of limitations for attempted murder was three years.

628
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:53,560
That should not exist.

629
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,560
It shouldn't.

630
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,640
There should be no statute of any limitations.

631
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:02,040
It's like, yeah, this person didn't succeed in murdering you, but that was their intent.

632
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,400
But they feel really bad and it's been three years.

633
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,960
So they don't think you felt bad.

634
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:06,960
No.

635
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:13,200
So the first woman that she talked to though was actually mistaken and they did find files

636
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,560
and Terry is able to pick them up.

637
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:21,800
So she drives to Salem, Oregon to retrieve them and it's her first time back in Oregon

638
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,320
since the attack.

639
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:29,120
So she's feeling really uneasy, but she's determined to find out more about the case.

640
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,400
So police found tire tracks the evening of the attack and they interviewed witnesses

641
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,720
and the description of a man that was sort of close to her memory of her attacker was

642
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:47,080
described by several of the witnesses and two different men attacked women in the area

643
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,880
around the same time.

644
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,560
But police didn't investigate because why would you?

645
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,560
Is it like the good old boy system?

646
00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:01,200
I don't know if it's like that or if it was just that it was like a really small town

647
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,760
and they had a small police force.

648
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:03,760
Oh yes, it was.

649
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:04,760
I will tell you.

650
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:05,760
Yeah.

651
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,840
Because something later in the story like leads me to believe that they just didn't have a

652
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,720
lot of resources, but then there's like other stuff going on too.

653
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:19,040
So there wasn't just one investigating agency that was part of the problem.

654
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,720
It was technically under authority of state police since it was a state park.

655
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,760
So it was split between local and state police and they didn't always share information with

656
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:30,760
each other.

657
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,280
This is like the classic thing that you always hear about in true crime that makes no sense

658
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:41,160
where it's like, oh, it's like out of their jurisdiction or it's in our jurisdiction.

659
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,800
So they don't share information with each other when you are working towards the same

660
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:46,800
goal.

661
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,640
Yes, if you have the same goal, it shouldn't matter where your little boundaries lie.

662
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:52,640
No.

663
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,960
If somebody was possibly going to be murdered, shouldn't that just push everything else aside?

664
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:57,960
I know.

665
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:58,960
It's ridiculous.

666
00:31:58,960 --> 00:31:59,960
Yeah.

667
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:00,960
Doesn't make any sense.

668
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:01,960
No.

669
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,040
The story goes to the library to go through archives of news stories of the attack and

670
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:13,440
they emphasize that they were in the area that the girls were in an area that they shouldn't

671
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,480
have been and that they were traveling alone.

672
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,560
So a lot of the newspapers, it seems like we're victim blaming.

673
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:19,560
Yeah.

674
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,560
Classic.

675
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:26,760
But she also finds an anonymous editorial from the Bend Bulletin called Someone Knows

676
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:33,160
Alludging That It's a Local Man Who Perpetrated the Attack and Insinuating That It's an Open

677
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,960
Secret Who the Perpetrator Was.

678
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,840
This is actually kind of creepy because my dad could have known this person.

679
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,000
Well, we're just going to have to ask.

680
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,000
Let's do it.

681
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,600
Digger, did you know that?

682
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,600
Yeah.

683
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,600
We're going to have like a bonus episode of My Dad Knew This Man.

684
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,600
Oh my gosh.

685
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:55,600
I would love that.

686
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,760
If he knew this person, he would 100% remember because I'll get into it.

687
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:01,760
Oh, I can't wait.

688
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:02,760
Oh, I'm so excited.

689
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,760
But also, I'm nervous.

690
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:05,760
Yeah.

691
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:06,760
I get you.

692
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:07,760
Yeah.

693
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,920
So All Terri Wants Is the Truth.

694
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,360
So she decides to investigate on her own since she hasn't had any luck with the police.

695
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,400
So she introduces herself to locals as one of the women that got axed in Klein Falls,

696
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,480
which you can imagine people were a little bit shocked and didn't know what to do with

697
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,920
that information when someone says that to them.

698
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,920
They're like, can I buy you a cup of coffee?

699
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,040
Yeah, they're like, oh God, we all know about that.

700
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,360
But they could never probably put a face to the story.

701
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,960
So most people are hesitant to talk to her about what feels like old history to them.

702
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,720
And she spends months going between LA and Central Oregon looking for leads.

703
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,920
And then she eventually finds the number of Bill Penhello's mother.

704
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,520
He's the teenager that helps them.

705
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,400
But he had no interest in talking.

706
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,960
And he actually still has nightmares of Terri emerging from the woods covered in blood.

707
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,200
She's like, that's nice.

708
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,640
And I feel for you, but I actually had to be covered in blood and find help.

709
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:11,640
Yeah.

710
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,520
I understand his side, though.

711
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:19,080
I think the fact that he was a teenager at the time, I'm sure that like messes with your

712
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,080
brain.

713
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,480
Like no, like Bill, we understand.

714
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:23,480
It's okay.

715
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:29,640
But the good news is that in 1994, Terri goes to his parents' house and she meets his girlfriend,

716
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:30,640
Lorraine.

717
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:36,160
They get to talking and the two women click and Lorraine tells her there were many rumors

718
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:41,320
around town after the ax attack about one man in particular.

719
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:47,560
According to Lorraine, the morning after the ax attack, a boy named Dirk Durran drove a

720
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,880
pickup truck down the country roads of Redmond, Oregon.

721
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,440
Dirk, D-U-R-A-N.

722
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,520
I think it's with a D at the end.

723
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:56,520
Oh, Durrand.

724
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,520
Yeah.

725
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:58,520
Not like the band Durran.

726
00:34:58,520 --> 00:34:59,520
Not Durran.

727
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,520
Durran.

728
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,520
That's my understanding is it's not like that.

729
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,520
Okay.

730
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,000
He was only 17, but he was already drunk.

731
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,920
While you're talking, I'm going to text my mom to see what she says.

732
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,720
He swerved as he made his way toward the local seed fields.

733
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:18,240
For country kids, it was a hangout spot and there was enough land, a pond, and privacy

734
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:21,520
for them to do whatever they wanted to do.

735
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,520
Red flag.

736
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,520
Right.

737
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:24,520
It's already a red flag.

738
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,360
When he drove up, he saw his friends and other kids gathered in the field and he stumbled

739
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,040
out of his truck and saw his girlfriend standing nearby.

740
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:38,600
She could tell he was drunk and he was high on volume and she grabbed the handle of vodka

741
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,600
that was in the back of his truck and poured out the rest of it and filled it with water.

742
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:44,600
It was good for her.

743
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,600
But, uh-oh.

744
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,080
When he noticed that the rest was gone, he grabbed her and pinned her to the ground,

745
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,600
kicking her in the head over and over, and he followed her into the pond and held her

746
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,800
face beneath the water.

747
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:04,120
His friends didn't stop him, but two younger girls did who were about 13 or 14 and they

748
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,240
came after him and were pelting him with sticks and stones.

749
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:08,320
I love those girls.

750
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,400
Then the seed field boss came out and he let his girlfriend go.

751
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,400
She swam away.

752
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:15,400
What the heck is wrong?

753
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,400
Dirk.

754
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:17,400
So much.

755
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:18,400
Dirk.

756
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,200
She swam away, but she was struggling to breathe and she was so badly injured that she had

757
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,600
to get medical attention.

758
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,400
Later that day, Redmond police took him into custody and he was detained for the weekend,

759
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,560
but never charged for the assault.

760
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,960
They were like, now you won't do that again, Dirk.

761
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:35,960
Right.

762
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,360
Definitely won't do that again.

763
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,680
His parents paid for his girlfriend's medical bills as basically the only consolation.

764
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:42,680
Oh gosh.

765
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,840
But I'm like, good for those teenage girls.

766
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,960
It is like, it's always other girls that are going to be the ones looking out for you.

767
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:51,960
Always.

768
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,720
So make sure to be a girl's girl, ladies.

769
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:56,400
Don't just hang out with guys.

770
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,400
Yeah.

771
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,400
Protect girls.

772
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,400
Yeah.

773
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,400
Protect other girls.

774
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,040
Even if you don't like the other girls, protect them.

775
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,760
Loreen was adamant that this boy was one of the, was the one local thought was responsible

776
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:15,760
for the attack and he has a record of fighting, substance abuse and abuse of women and girls.

777
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,640
But Terry was still unsure about this.

778
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,400
She said her attacker looked like a grown man to her, not a 17 year old.

779
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:27,000
But Loreen said that he looked older than his age and he grew up working on a farm and

780
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,520
he was strong and matched witness descriptions.

781
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,680
He was also known to be extremely neat.

782
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,720
His clothes never had a wrinkle on them.

783
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:36,720
Oh, that's the thing she noticed.

784
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:42,880
He was always fastidiously tucked neatly into his jeans, just like Terry's attacker.

785
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,960
So Terry follows this lead and keeps in touch with Loreen and she starts to gather more

786
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,280
information about this man.

787
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,960
Even some of his friends said that he was cruel and that they were afraid of him and

788
00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,640
people in the small town believe that he's guilty and he had even said to some people

789
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,440
that he got rid of his axe because he had hurt some people with it and his nickname around

790
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,320
town was Hatchet Man.

791
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,080
So they be knowing.

792
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,080
Hatchet Man.

793
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,080
Yeah.

794
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,080
I feel like that's not a good nickname.

795
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,080
That's not a good nickname.

796
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,080
No.

797
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,640
So Loreen said a week after the axe attack, people saw blood on the back of his pickup

798
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,240
and he was known to carry an axe with him.

799
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:27,800
But just like he had said, it disappeared after the attack.

800
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,720
And she had a conversation with his ex-girlfriend, the one that he nearly drowned.

801
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:37,240
And she says that when she took the vodka out of his truck that day, she noticed that

802
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:41,960
his toolbox was gone, which struck her as odd because he was a farm boy and he always

803
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,800
had his tools with him.

804
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,240
His girlfriend then later went to the scene of the crime two days after the attack and

805
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:50,100
noticed the tire tracks.

806
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:55,320
She said that she knew they belonged to him and people wondered how she would know because

807
00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:01,240
it's hard to identify tire tracks, but she said that he had tires that didn't match so

808
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:04,120
the tracks were asymmetrical.

809
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:09,280
She also said that he could go from being, yes ma'am, thank you ma'am, to Satan in his

810
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,280
eyes.

811
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,240
Wait, so his clothes are neat, but his tires didn't match?

812
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,240
Embarrassing.

813
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:17,240
And Satan in his eyes.

814
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:18,240
Gosh.

815
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,680
Terry wondered why he would do it.

816
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,720
Maybe it was a crime of opportunity, but some claim that him and his girlfriend got in

817
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:32,240
a huge fight that night and he was drunk and out of anger, he took his anger out on these

818
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:37,800
two random women since, I don't know, maybe he decided that one time to spare his girlfriend.

819
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,520
Men will drive out in the middle of nowhere and run over girls and hit them with axes,

820
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,520
axes before getting therapy.

821
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,520
Truly.

822
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,520
I mean, not all of them.

823
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:49,520
Not all of them.

824
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:50,520
Just be careful.

825
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:51,520
Yeah.

826
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,240
Maybe, maybe look a little inward.

827
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:59,440
Maybe if someone's rolling up to, you know, a gathering and they're stumbling drunk out

828
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,600
of their pickup truck, maybe don't hang out with them.

829
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:02,600
Yeah.

830
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,560
I mean, not blaming this girl because she was literally like a teenager.

831
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:06,560
Right.

832
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:07,560
Yeah.

833
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,560
And she was also trying to help him.

834
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:10,560
Yeah.

835
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:11,560
But yeah.

836
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:12,800
Some adults should have intervened.

837
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,520
Yes, for sure.

838
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:20,000
With so much suspicion on this man, the police never questioned him about the axe attack.

839
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,480
One claimed that an officer from Redmond PD said that they all knew who was responsible,

840
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,280
but they couldn't prove it.

841
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,480
In May 1995, Terry went to Oregon State Police headquarters and told them everything that

842
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:33,480
she knew.

843
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:39,160
They remind her that the statute of limitations expired in 1980, but she believes that in

844
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,560
the years since the attack, he has abused countless other women and she wants to stop

845
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,480
him from hurting other women, not just get justice for herself and Anya.

846
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,680
So the state police agree to follow up and they track him down.

847
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,520
He was living in Washington State at the time with his wife and children and he agrees to

848
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:03,240
take a polygraph test and he says that he's innocent and the results of the test seemingly

849
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:09,560
confirmed this, but then police learned that he had ingested alcohol and muscle relaxers

850
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:14,320
before the test and the results were deemed inconclusive.

851
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:20,440
For those that don't know, first of all, polygraphs are not admissible in court, but

852
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:28,720
a lot of times it's just used as a barometer to see if they're guilty or not, but it doesn't

853
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:31,640
actually measure that, it measures your stress levels.

854
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:38,760
So that's why alcohol and muscle relaxants would make him not stressed and give a false

855
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:39,760
positive.

856
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:40,760
Right.

857
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:48,040
I also randomly saw something when I was little that was like things you can learn to get

858
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,760
out of things, I don't know.

859
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,240
And it was like, if you squeeze your toes together during a polygraph, it helps you

860
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,320
relax because you're focused elsewhere.

861
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,000
I don't know why that struck with me.

862
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,480
Like in the back of my mind, I'm like, gotta keep that information for later.

863
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:03,480
What?

864
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,480
No, I don't.

865
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,480
We would have gotten along as children.

866
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,160
That is the type of thing I thought of too.

867
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,160
And my parents are like, what is wrong with you?

868
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,160
I'm like, why are you worrying about that?

869
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,160
I'm like, you never know.

870
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:14,160
You never know.

871
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,800
I also learned how to get out of a zip tie, depending on if it was behind my back or in

872
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:18,800
front of me.

873
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:25,520
Oh my gosh, life changing when I found out that you could kick out the backlight of

874
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,680
a car and like, you know, like the John Mulaney.

875
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,920
I'm like, it's either we learned it from Unsolved Mysteries or John Mulaney taught us.

876
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,680
I personally learned it from Psych.

877
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:36,680
I did too.

878
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,280
That's so funny.

879
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,960
You never go to a second location.

880
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:42,960
Yeah.

881
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,680
And you keep an empty wallet with you so you can throw it.

882
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:48,920
What was that?

883
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:49,920
What did he say?

884
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:50,920
I forget what he...

885
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:51,920
The money clip.

886
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:52,920
Money clip.

887
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,240
But what was, um, Bittenbinder, what was the...

888
00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:58,240
Street smart.

889
00:42:58,240 --> 00:42:59,240
Street smart.

890
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:00,240
That's what we learned.

891
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:02,240
We learned our own street smart.

892
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:03,240
You want it?

893
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:04,240
Go get it.

894
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:05,240
Go get it.

895
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:06,240
Street smart.

896
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:07,240
Oh my gosh.

897
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:08,240
I need to rewatch that.

898
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:09,240
Me too.

899
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:17,560
So, um, he takes a second polygraph test and this time it shows deception and he breaks

900
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,440
down and says not a single day goes by that he doesn't think about the axe attack at Klein

901
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Falls.

902
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:24,440
Oh really?

903
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,440
But he doesn't confess.

904
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,840
He just alludes to the Klein Falls attack.

905
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:35,320
But this time they can't use those results either because he used methamphetamines before

906
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,320
the exam.

907
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,320
Oh my gosh.

908
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,880
This guy can't stay off drugs.

909
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,240
This man needs to stay away from any kind of substance of any kind.

910
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:44,240
Seriously.

911
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:52,160
So, he sits for another polygraph in June 1996 but he becomes so belligerent that they

912
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,920
are unable to administer the test.

913
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,080
He's definitely hiding something but they're unsure how to prove it.

914
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:05,200
And then fall 1996, Terry gets a call that he was taken into custody after pointing a

915
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,520
gun at a hunting buddy of his and forcing him to drive around.

916
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:10,760
I'm sure he did.

917
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:16,040
Can you imagine you're just like this guy's buddy and he's just like drive me around.

918
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,200
And you're like I would do this without a gun.

919
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:20,200
I know.

920
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:21,200
Why do you need the gun?

921
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,200
He's like I don't know.

922
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:28,080
So, Terry attends his grand jury hearing and he turns around and stares straight at her

923
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,880
with an icy look and she refuses to break eye contact and then he turns around but she's

924
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,840
unsure if he recognizes her or if he's just kind of a jerk.

925
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,480
She needed to do the Robert De Niro look from Meet the Parents.

926
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,480
Yes.

927
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:45,480
Oh my gosh.

928
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,840
I do that all the time.

929
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:53,800
He is found guilty of unlawful use of a firearm and coercion and he's given five years in prison

930
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,400
followed by two years of legal supervision.

931
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:02,120
Terry's happy that he has any time behind bars and he maintains his innocence but Terry

932
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,840
goes public with her accusations toward him.

933
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:11,440
And Terry was a part of a campaign to get the statute of limitations on attempted murder

934
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:17,120
extended and now there is no time limit on prosecution for attempted murder in Oregon.

935
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:18,120
Good.

936
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,160
However, it's not retroactive so it doesn't affect her case.

937
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,160
I don't like that.

938
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,560
But I think it's really great that she just did that for other people.

939
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:25,560
Yeah, she did.

940
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,080
What a wonderful person that she knows it's not going to help her but she wants to help

941
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,080
other people.

942
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,320
Terry is a real girl's girl.

943
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,560
She is.

944
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:42,920
And then in 2006, Terry published a book called Strange Piece of Paradise recounting her attack

945
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,520
and the emotional aftermath.

946
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,960
And unfortunately, Anya never comes to any of Terry's signings and they still don't have

947
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,960
any contact.

948
00:45:51,960 --> 00:46:02,480
But in 2011, Terry does an interview with PBS and they ask her if she could ever forgive

949
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,880
her attacker.

950
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,560
And Terry says, can I ever under any circumstance forgive this man?

951
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,200
I wonder if life is long enough to atone for crimes that he has done.

952
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,080
In this case, I would say no.

953
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,360
A single lifetime, the years he has left on this planet would not be enough.

954
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:25,120
And that is the case of the Klein Falls ex attack.

955
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:26,280
Wow.

956
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:27,280
That was great.

957
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:28,780
Good job.

958
00:46:28,780 --> 00:46:35,160
And I just think, I mean, both of the girls are amazing because like the other girl, you

959
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,560
just got to deal with it in whatever way you can.

960
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:38,560
Yeah.

961
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,000
And it was awesome that she was able to go on and lead a normal life.

962
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:47,920
But I just think it's great that Terry was able to help other people get justice.

963
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,240
She like advocated for that.

964
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:51,240
Yeah.

965
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:52,240
And I really want to read her book now.

966
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:53,240
Me too.

967
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:54,240
Yeah.

968
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:58,640
I understand what she was saying at the end because he ruined both of their lives.

969
00:46:58,640 --> 00:46:59,640
Yeah.

970
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,280
It's like, she's like, I don't know if I have room for that.

971
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:08,080
And I'm like, sorry to this man.

972
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:14,240
I know this man, but sorry to this man.

973
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:17,240
Did it say what prison he went to?

974
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:18,240
It didn't.

975
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:22,360
Because he might have gone to where I might be talking about next.

976
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:28,160
I don't know if it was in Oregon or Washington.

977
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,040
He was living in Washington at the time.

978
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:35,280
And I think the crime that he was prosecuted for was in Washington.

979
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:36,280
Gotcha.

980
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,960
But either way, better than nothing.

981
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:39,960
Yeah, exactly.

982
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:40,960
Wow.

983
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:41,960
Yeah.

984
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,960
That was, that was good.

985
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:44,960
Thank you.

986
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,360
Do you want to take a quick break?

987
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:47,360
Yes, I do.

988
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:48,360
Break time.

989
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,360
Do we need a clap?

990
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,360
Do we need a clap again?

991
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:57,360
Okay.

992
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,360
One, two, three.

993
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,360
One, two, three.

994
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,960
I still don't understand how it works.

995
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,360
It's above my head, right?

996
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:06,360
So I'm ready.

997
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:07,360
Yeah.

998
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:08,360
Okay.

999
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:15,960
Olivia, I am going to tell you about the unsolved disappearance and murders of the

1000
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,960
Cowden family.

1001
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:18,960
Okay.

1002
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,160
And it's a little bit similar to our theme, in a sense.

1003
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,760
And it's a little bit similar to our theme, in a sense.

1004
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,440
It's just funny that we picked something that was so Oregon and campy.

1005
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:33,440
I know.

1006
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:34,440
Campy.

1007
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:35,440
Campy.

1008
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:36,440
Camping related.

1009
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,680
Camping related.

1010
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:48,680
My sources are a strange outdoors article at grunge.com article written by Jane Mendoza.

1011
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:56,800
An episode of the trail went cold podcast by Robin order and Wikipedia.

1012
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:58,800
Good old wiki.

1013
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,240
Okay.

1014
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:07,000
So what was supposed to be a fun camping experience for the Cowden family turned tragic

1015
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,880
when they disappeared from their campsite under very unusual circumstances.

1016
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:17,640
And it would be months before the remains were discovered.

1017
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:23,160
So the family's disappearance resulted in one of the largest search efforts in Oregon

1018
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,240
history and their murders have been described as one of the state's most haunting and baffling.

1019
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,160
Do you know the story?

1020
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:30,600
I don't think I know the story at all.

1021
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,440
I was trying to remember and I don't think I know it.

1022
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,760
I didn't know either and it was quite interesting and disturbing.

1023
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,040
So yes.

1024
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,080
This case received nationwide attention at the time of its occurrence and the murders

1025
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:50,440
have been profiled in numerous national media articles through the New York Post, New York

1026
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,440
Times and others.

1027
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:57,680
Ann Rule true crime writer wrote a column about this tragic story for the New York Daily

1028
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:03,200
News and would later devote a chapter about it in her book titled but I trusted you.

1029
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,280
Shout out Ann Rule.

1030
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,360
Which I don't think I ever have ever read it.

1031
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:10,360
Okay.

1032
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,360
I'm going to either because I'm a little scared.

1033
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:13,360
Let's get the clap.

1034
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,360
It's going to be too loud.

1035
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,520
Hey, I'm going to tell you something about.

1036
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,000
What are you going to tell me?

1037
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:25,560
I'm going to tell you the unsolved disappearance and murders of the Cowden family.

1038
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:26,560
Okay.

1039
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,640
This is all brand new information.

1040
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:34,080
This is, it's actually kind of funny but not, I mean it's like the opposite of funny but

1041
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:40,640
it's like interesting that we both picked camping and Oregon for this.

1042
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,200
So get ready for that.

1043
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:53,960
My sources are a strange outdoors article, a grunge.com article written by Jean Mendoza.

1044
00:50:53,960 --> 00:51:00,120
The trail went cold podcast episode by Robin Warder and Wikipedia.

1045
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,160
Awesome.

1046
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:07,480
So Olivia, what was supposed to be a fun camping experience for the Cowden family turned

1047
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:13,160
tragic when they disappeared from their campsite under very unusual circumstances.

1048
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,440
It would be months before their remains were discovered.

1049
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,840
And have you heard this before?

1050
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,880
I have not but I'm already bummed out.

1051
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:21,880
Yes.

1052
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:28,200
I don't know either when I did my research and I was, I went from intrigue to I'm really

1053
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,440
bummed out but it is worth telling.

1054
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,320
So here we go.

1055
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,480
The Cowden's disappearance resulted in one of the largest search efforts in Oregon history

1056
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:44,040
and their murders have been described as one of the state's most haunting and baffling.

1057
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:48,840
The case received nationwide attention at the time of its occurrence and their murders

1058
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:57,400
have been profiled in numerous national media such as New York Post and New York Times.

1059
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:03,280
Ann Rule, the true crime writer, wrote a column about this tragic story for the New York Daily

1060
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,720
News and would later devote a chapter about it in her book.

1061
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:08,960
But I trusted you.

1062
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:09,960
Shout out Ann Rule.

1063
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:10,960
Ann Rule.

1064
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,720
I still have not read an Ann Rule book.

1065
00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:15,520
Me either.

1066
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,040
Maybe I'll start with this one.

1067
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,040
Okay.

1068
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:26,800
So the Cowden's were a young family that lived in White City, Oregon, which is a town northeast

1069
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:27,800
of Medford.

1070
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:28,800
Okay.

1071
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:34,080
The family consisted of 28-year-old Richard who worked as a logging truck driver, which

1072
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,040
is like the most Oregon job you can have.

1073
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,640
Yeah, seriously.

1074
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:44,200
His wife was 22-year-old Belinda and they had two children, five-year-old David and

1075
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:45,840
five-month-old Melissa.

1076
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:46,840
Oh my gosh.

1077
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:52,840
I mean, this is not relevant to the story at all, but I cannot imagine having two young

1078
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,160
children at my current age, let alone 22.

1079
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,520
Hey, life is different in the 70s.

1080
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:00,520
Yes.

1081
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:01,520
I mean, good for them.

1082
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:02,520
Right, exactly.

1083
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:03,520
Just not for me.

1084
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:04,520
Not for you.

1085
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:05,520
Or for me.

1086
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:06,520
Yeah.

1087
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:12,760
I'm like, I'm too young for that and then I realize how much older I am than Belinda.

1088
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:13,760
Okay.

1089
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,760
So this family, they loved to camp together.

1090
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:22,120
It was said they spent a lot of time in nature, as most Oregonians do, and they were very

1091
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,960
familiar and comfortable with the outdoors.

1092
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:32,160
On Labor Day weekend in 1974, they went camping in the Siskew Mountains near Carberry Creek

1093
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,040
in the town of Copper, Oregon.

1094
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:40,000
And the plan was to be out in the mountains from August 30th, which is actually today as

1095
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,000
well.

1096
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,000
Oh, that's weird.

1097
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:43,000
It is weird.

1098
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,520
It's like, to September 1st, 1974.

1099
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:52,000
So literally today, 49 years ago.

1100
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:56,920
Man, this is just like, in a long list of weird things that have been happening this

1101
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:57,920
week.

1102
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,760
Yeah, it's been kind of a glitch in the Matrix week for us.

1103
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:10,760
Because the sidebar, when Olivia mentioned Klein Falls earlier today, our mutual friend

1104
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:15,280
texted me a picture of Klein Falls that she was there today.

1105
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:16,280
Yeah.

1106
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,000
So the universe is just like, we support your episode.

1107
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:21,000
Yeah.

1108
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:27,960
The universe is like, we've subscribed and reviewed your podcast.

1109
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,800
So just so we know where we're at for us and our listeners, the Siskew Mountains are a

1110
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,720
coastal subrange of the Klamath Mountains and are located in Northwestern California

1111
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:44,480
and Southwestern Oregon, they extend 100 miles from the east of Crescent City, California,

1112
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,080
which is on the coast, northeast along the north side of the Klamath River into Josephine

1113
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,400
and Jackson counties in Oregon.

1114
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,800
The mountain range forms a barrier between the watersheds of the Klamath River to the

1115
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,440
south and the Rogue River to the north.

1116
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:04,920
So this is a popular camping mountain range as it encompasses two national forests and

1117
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,520
the Pacific Crest Trail follows a portion of the range.

1118
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,360
So it's beautiful, ideal for camping.

1119
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:18,640
However, very remote and not very well populated, which is just a little disconcerting sometimes.

1120
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:19,640
Red flag.

1121
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:20,640
Red flag.

1122
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:25,320
The town of Copper actually no longer exists as it was.

1123
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:26,840
That's why I haven't heard of it.

1124
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:27,840
Right, exactly.

1125
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:34,600
It was inundated with water to create Applegate Lake in 1980.

1126
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,520
So this camping trip for the Cowdons was very spur of the moment.

1127
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:43,200
Initially, Richard's plan was to spend the weekend transporting gravel to their property

1128
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,480
and working on their driveway.

1129
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,960
But the truck he was going to use to haul the gravel, which was one of his employers,

1130
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,280
ended up breaking down.

1131
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,800
So they decided to make the most of the weekend and they went on a camping trip to the Siskiu

1132
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:56,800
Mountains.

1133
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:03,360
That's just like one of those weird life things where, you know, your plans just don't work

1134
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,880
out and it just like changes the whole trajectory of your life.

1135
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:08,880
Yeah.

1136
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:09,880
That's upsetting.

1137
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,160
And usually you hope it's for the better.

1138
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:13,160
Not this time.

1139
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,040
And what we're going to learn is not this time.

1140
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:23,680
So Richard and Belinda took their children and their basset hound Droopy.

1141
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,480
Oh, with them.

1142
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:26,480
Droopy.

1143
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:27,480
Droopy.

1144
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:28,680
I saw a picture of him.

1145
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,120
He's very adorable.

1146
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:37,560
On August 30th, they made their way to a remote camping spot near Copper and Setup Camp.

1147
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:39,880
The majority of the weekend was uneventful.

1148
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:45,520
It was said Richard and David fished together while Belinda relaxed with the baby.

1149
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:52,800
On Sunday, September 1st, Richard, David and Droopy went on a short walk, the mile walk

1150
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,840
from their campsite to the Copper General Store at about nine in the morning to buy

1151
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:58,920
a carton of milk.

1152
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:03,200
They left the store and headed back to their campsite and this is the last sighting of

1153
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,040
any members of the Cowden family.

1154
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:06,040
I mean, alive.

1155
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:07,040
I should.

1156
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,040
Oh, yeah.

1157
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:09,040
Yeah.

1158
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:14,640
That evening, Belinda's mother Ruth Grayson, who lived less than a mile from the campground,

1159
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,760
was expecting the family to come over for dinner while they were on their way home to

1160
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,320
White City.

1161
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:23,360
When they failed to show up and after she had waited a few hours, she went over to the

1162
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,000
campsite to see if there was a problem.

1163
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,400
When she arrived, there was no sign of the family and the truck was parked and unlocked

1164
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,920
and the keys were on the picnic table.

1165
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:37,080
There was a plastic dishpan full of cold water which lay on the ground and Belinda's purse

1166
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,520
was in plain sight on the table.

1167
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,400
A diaper bag, a camp stove were all set up.

1168
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,640
There was the half finished carton of milk.

1169
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:51,720
And strangely, there was Richard's expensive watch and his wallet on the ground, which

1170
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:55,040
his wallet still contained $23.

1171
00:57:55,040 --> 00:58:01,160
That's so weird that like, I'm guessing whoever hurt them, you know, left all that behind.

1172
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,040
Oh, yeah.

1173
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:07,280
The truck appeared untouched and contained their clothing with only their bathing suits

1174
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,160
missing.

1175
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:14,320
So from what Ruth gathered, it seemed they had gone swimming one final time but had not

1176
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,080
returned back to the campsite.

1177
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:21,200
Considering the time, it seemed odd to Ruth as it was, you know, getting later in the

1178
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:22,200
day.

1179
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,720
So after waiting for them to return for about an hour, she left the campground to notify

1180
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,720
the authorities after which the sheriff and troopers arrived.

1181
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:35,000
When the police arrived at the scene, officers searched the area until it grew so dark they

1182
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,800
could no longer see a thing.

1183
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:45,200
Lieutenant Mark Kesar, who headed the case at first, would later state that the investigation

1184
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:50,720
had been delayed for maybe a day because of the lack of indication that anything violent

1185
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,240
had occurred at the campsites.

1186
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:53,240
It was so untouched.

1187
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:54,240
Yeah.

1188
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:55,960
I thought this was funny.

1189
00:58:55,960 --> 00:59:01,400
A state trooper named Officer Erickson recalled, quote, that camp was spooky, even the milk

1190
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,840
was still on the table.

1191
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:03,840
End quote.

1192
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,640
Out of everything, he's like, my God, the milk.

1193
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,320
He's like, no one leaves their milk out.

1194
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:09,320
No, I know.

1195
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,200
And I'm like, this man has had a bad milk experience.

1196
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:12,200
We all have.

1197
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:13,400
He's like, I've had bad milk.

1198
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,400
This is no one would just leave their milk out.

1199
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:16,800
My God, the milk.

1200
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,720
Like I feel like parents with two young children, like you're not going to leave anything out.

1201
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,280
No, no, exactly.

1202
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:29,760
So the following morning on September 2nd, the Cowden's pet Bassetown droopy was found

1203
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,920
scratching at the front door of the Copper General Store.

1204
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:33,920
Baby.

1205
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:34,920
I know.

1206
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:35,920
I'm so glad that droopy was OK.

1207
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:36,920
I know.

1208
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,760
It was said he seemed upset and looked exhausted.

1209
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,480
There was still no sign of his family.

1210
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:48,240
Where some campers would say they caught sight of droopy walking up and down the creek various

1211
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,600
points the day before looking as if he was searching for his family.

1212
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:52,600
I know.

1213
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:53,600
I'm going to cry.

1214
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:59,040
I'm like, I bet I'm sure droopy had a really nice life after that, but that just breaks

1215
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:00,040
my heart.

1216
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:04,520
I want to be clear to our listeners that I am not just sad because droopy is sad, but

1217
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,400
he was obviously trying to alert people that something was wrong.

1218
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,600
Yeah, droopy's like, if only you could just pay attention to what I'm trying to say.

1219
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:12,600
Read my mind.

1220
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:14,400
Yeah, exactly.

1221
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:15,400
Yeah.

1222
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,640
Eventually, due to the nature of the mystery and the possibility of a crime, the Sheriff's

1223
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:25,040
Office requested help from District 3 Office of the Oregon State Troopers.

1224
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:29,600
As mentioned before, the search for the Cowden family was one of the largest in Oregon history

1225
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,480
and included state and local police.

1226
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:38,280
And eventually the Explorer Scouts, the United States Forest Service, and the Oregon National

1227
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,720
Guard, as well as hundreds of volunteers.

1228
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:46,640
The U.S. Forest Service searched 25 miles of road and trail surrounding the dirt, or

1229
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:51,560
the dirt, the campsite, and helicopters and planes were flown over the area equipped

1230
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:57,360
with infrared imaging, and they focused on dirt that had been recently overturned, which

1231
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,920
I thought was interesting.

1232
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:06,080
Despite the large search effort, no sign was found apart from droopy.

1233
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:11,840
Police interviewed over 150 people for any information, and many were either near or

1234
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,160
at the campsite the same time.

1235
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:18,720
A local farmer shared information to the police that he spoke to a family visiting from Los

1236
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:23,800
Angeles who had arrived to the area on September 1st.

1237
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,320
They said, while walking in the park that evening, they witnessed two men and a woman

1238
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,840
parking nearby in a pickup truck.

1239
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,720
The father of this family said that they acted like they were waiting for us to leave, and

1240
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,640
frankly, they made us so nervous we moved on.

1241
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:44,240
This location of where this pickup truck was was approximately halfway between the campsite

1242
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:50,040
and where they were ultimately found, but it still wasn't much to go off of.

1243
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:55,240
By September 7th, the official search was called off, but friends and relatives of the

1244
01:01:55,240 --> 01:02:00,080
family spent many weekends and vacation time continuing to look.

1245
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,080
Authorities were baffled.

1246
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,800
The family had little debt, they were not behind in any payments, and Richard made more than

1247
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,240
enough money to support his family.

1248
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:13,520
So it seemed unlikely they had any reason to just voluntarily disappear.

1249
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:23,480
And it didn't seem like a robbery, row, row, robbery, my gosh, rup-row, because as stated

1250
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:28,560
before, there was a wallet, there was a watch, Belinda's purse, so many things left behind.

1251
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:33,360
And there were no bodies in the creek which ruled out accidental drowning.

1252
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:34,360
So what happened to that?

1253
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,000
Yeah, especially since they were in their swimming clothes too.

1254
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:41,440
Yeah, you would exc- okay, maybe they were swimming, something happened, nope.

1255
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:47,200
So despite the official search being called off, of course, multiple agencies including

1256
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:53,960
Oregon State troopers, Jackson County's Sheriff's Office, and Central Point Police still kept

1257
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,680
searching for months.

1258
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:04,200
And Oregon State Police Detective Richard Davis had two recruits come in January and

1259
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:09,600
offered to go up to the Applegate Valley to look for buzzards because buzzards would lead

1260
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:10,600
them to a body.

1261
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:11,600
Makes sense.

1262
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:17,160
But he said it was January and buzzards are migratory, so they hadn't seen one in the

1263
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:21,600
Rogue Valley or Applegate Valley since early November, so they didn't have much to go off

1264
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:23,240
up there.

1265
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:29,680
But he also stated a few early suspects were quickly eliminated with no new leads.

1266
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:34,680
And so eventually the case went cold for months and officers began to lose hope.

1267
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:39,160
They would get really odd tips here and there from people stating they saw the Cowdins in

1268
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:44,000
Seattle or San Francisco, but of course it was not them.

1269
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:48,520
It wasn't until seven months later, right when Richard Davis took over the case as the

1270
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:53,840
lead detective, that two campers from Washington made a gruesome discovery.

1271
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:58,760
Up a game trail from their campsite was a human skull, and beyond that, the rest of

1272
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,760
a man's body was tied to a tree.

1273
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,120
It was later identified as Richard Cowden.

1274
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:08,000
He was seven miles from his campsite.

1275
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,240
About a hundred feet away under a rock in a cave on the hillside was Richard's wife,

1276
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:14,800
son, and baby.

1277
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:19,600
Davis said they bagged everything up all the way down to the mineral soil, but since evidence

1278
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:26,480
was scarce, several months of exposure to the elements, they were not too hopeful.

1279
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:31,680
All that was left, Davis says, was a single bullet belonging to a Marlin manufactured 22

1280
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,120
caliber rifle.

1281
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:38,800
So now they were looking for at least someone who owned and purchased this sort of gun.

1282
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,080
And through dental records, the family was positively identified.

1283
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:47,720
Stories revealed Belinda and five year old David had died as the result of a 22 caliber

1284
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:53,080
gunshot wound and baby Melissa had died from severe head trauma.

1285
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:54,080
Oh, baby.

1286
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,320
That just breaks my heart.

1287
01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:04,200
It's also upsetting to me, like, anytime there's like a whole family that dies like that where,

1288
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:08,400
like they're separating the father, because like, what are you doing to the rest of the

1289
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,960
family that you feel they need to separate the father?

1290
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:11,960
Yeah.

1291
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:12,960
Are you making him watch?

1292
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:13,960
Yeah.

1293
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:15,480
Or are you like, you're too strong.

1294
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,560
I need to incapacitate you now.

1295
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:18,560
Yeah.

1296
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:19,560
Yeah, I don't even want to think about it.

1297
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:26,040
I actually went down this rabbit hole in my brain and I was like, no, I can't do that.

1298
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:31,040
But yes, they were able to determine the causes of death, except for Richard, but it was because

1299
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,160
he was most exposed to elements.

1300
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,760
Yeah.

1301
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:40,160
There was an option of thinking Richard murdered his own family.

1302
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,080
It's like a murder suicide.

1303
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:43,760
And tied himself to the tree.

1304
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:44,760
Right.

1305
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:45,760
Yeah.

1306
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:46,760
They were just, I think they were grasping at straws.

1307
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:47,760
Yeah.

1308
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:48,760
Could he have?

1309
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:49,760
No.

1310
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:51,120
Detective searched the area for a gun or a weapon.

1311
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:54,920
If he was indeed responsible for the death of his family and his own suicide, then some

1312
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:56,480
sort of weapon would be around.

1313
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,800
But there was no gun or weapon, only a bullet.

1314
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:03,720
And of course, he did not tie himself to a tree.

1315
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:07,000
Authorities believe that Richard and David returned to the camp after their trip to the

1316
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:12,080
store and the family went swimming in adjacent Carberry Creek later that morning.

1317
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,880
A short time later, probably before noon, the family was abducted at gunpoint and most

1318
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:20,760
likely by someone they did not know.

1319
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:27,120
Based on the location of detectives suspected, or, oh my gosh, based on location comma, detectives

1320
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:33,880
suspected that the person responsible was perhaps local or at least knew of the area

1321
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,280
because this was a pretty remote cave.

1322
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:37,280
Yeah.

1323
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:42,680
After the family's remains were recovered, a resident of Grants Pass who had volunteered

1324
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:48,040
in the search told police he had searched that cave before where the bodies were found.

1325
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:52,760
But he said in 1974 and September, they were not there at that time.

1326
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:56,960
To confirm the story, the police had the man take them to the cave where he had searched

1327
01:06:56,960 --> 01:06:59,680
and it was indeed the same cave.

1328
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:05,000
So this meant that the bodies had been moved there post-mortem.

1329
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,000
Oh, weird.

1330
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:11,520
Everything about it is just, there's like, there's so many questions that pop up and yeah.

1331
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:12,520
Yeah.

1332
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:13,520
You'll keep wondering.

1333
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:14,520
I'm gonna be thinking about it.

1334
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:16,240
Oh yeah, for sure.

1335
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:21,840
As far as suspects, one name came up almost immediately and stuck around after all suspects

1336
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,120
had been exhausted.

1337
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:27,120
Dwayne Lee Little.

1338
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:34,200
He had been paroled from the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem in May of 1974, three

1339
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,720
months prior to the Cowden's disappearance.

1340
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:44,000
And after his release, he moved to Southern Oregon to live with his parents.

1341
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:51,240
Dwayne had been in prison because on November 2, 1964, he had murdered and posthumously

1342
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:55,880
sexually assaulted a teenager named Orla Faye Phipps.

1343
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:57,880
He was only 15 at the time.

1344
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,080
Oh my gosh.

1345
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:08,600
Not to dwell on him too much, but when he was seven, he had a head wound and to the

1346
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:14,000
point where he had to wear a helmet because his head had an indentation.

1347
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,320
So I'm just like, there's a correlation.

1348
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:21,640
When people have had trauma, just look out, people.

1349
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:22,640
Yeah.

1350
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:25,280
Maybe it's time to, I don't know.

1351
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:27,000
I don't know.

1352
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:28,800
Somebody we know would say send him back.

1353
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:32,280
I'm just kidding.

1354
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:38,320
So despite being so young, he was still sentenced to life in prison.

1355
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:39,320
Yeah.

1356
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:40,520
Yeah.

1357
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:47,560
And he was the youngest person to be incarcerated at ever in history at Oregon State Penitentiary.

1358
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:55,200
But after nine years in prison because of good behavior, just the tale is old as time,

1359
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:57,280
he was released because of course he was.

1360
01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:58,880
I'm like, you know what?

1361
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:05,800
I mean, certain crimes I can see like for good behavior, but murdering and then assaulting

1362
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:06,800
someone.

1363
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:07,800
Yeah.

1364
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,320
That's a life for good reason.

1365
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:11,320
Like oh, good job.

1366
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:12,320
You didn't get any fights in prison.

1367
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:15,160
That doesn't mean you're not going to murder someone.

1368
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:16,160
No.

1369
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:17,160
Yeah.

1370
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:18,160
Okay.

1371
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:22,360
So in addition to all of this, state police were able to determine that little had been

1372
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:28,120
in copper, the town of copper over the same Labor Day weekend at the approximate time

1373
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,880
the family was killed.

1374
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:35,360
This all came to light when Little's girlfriend told law enforcement that she had seen him

1375
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:39,940
with a.22 caliber gun during Christmas of 1974.

1376
01:09:39,940 --> 01:09:43,680
She decided to rat him out because she caught him cheating.

1377
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,560
That was the only reason, you know.

1378
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:48,320
This man has a girlfriend.

1379
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:49,320
Two girls.

1380
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:51,640
Not just one, but two.

1381
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:57,640
They're like, hey, can I see your head indentation one more time?

1382
01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:01,240
Oh, yeah.

1383
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:04,280
So access to a gun would revoke his parole.

1384
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:10,120
However, when they brought him into questioning, police asked him to do a lie detector test

1385
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:15,880
about the Cowden's disappearance in order to avoid gun charges.

1386
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,560
Little refused the polygraph.

1387
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:23,720
And on January 12th, 1975, his parole was revoked and he was sent back to prison.

1388
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:24,720
Good.

1389
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:32,440
I realize that there's a lot of different like reasons as to why someone would forego

1390
01:10:32,440 --> 01:10:38,600
a polygraph because I mean, what if the chance there is off chance he's not at all related

1391
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:39,600
to this crime?

1392
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:42,600
He would be instantly the number one person.

1393
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:43,600
Yeah.

1394
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:44,760
If he agreed to do it.

1395
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,800
But at the same time, it's like he violated his parole.

1396
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:47,800
He's a garbage person.

1397
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:48,800
Yeah.

1398
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:49,800
What does it matter?

1399
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:50,800
So it, yeah.

1400
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:51,800
Yeah.

1401
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:52,800
Anyway, who cares?

1402
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:54,880
Dwayne.

1403
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:57,840
Police made the correlation between the gun.

1404
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:03,960
Little had in his possession and the gunshot wounds on the same members of the Cowden family.

1405
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:08,600
But they had no evidence otherwise.

1406
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:13,560
And of course, Little was paroled again on good behavior April 26, 1977.

1407
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:15,560
Oh, good.

1408
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:16,560
Yeah.

1409
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,120
Don't worry.

1410
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:19,120
It doesn't last long.

1411
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:20,120
Hi, Henry.

1412
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:21,120
Hi, Kitty.

1413
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:27,600
On June 2, 1980, he picked up a pregnant 23 year old girl named Margie Hunter, whose

1414
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:33,160
car had broken down on I-5 near Tigard, which is near Portland.

1415
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:37,800
I do have to say Robin Warder, who does the Trail Went Cold podcast.

1416
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,640
I believe he's Canadian.

1417
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:41,640
He called it Teaguard.

1418
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:42,640
Teaguard.

1419
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,160
Which is really kind of cute.

1420
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:45,640
That is cute.

1421
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:48,200
So Tigard or Tigard.

1422
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:53,440
So Dwayne offered to drive her home.

1423
01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:56,560
Naturally, he did not drive her home.

1424
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:01,680
Instead, he took her down a secluded road to then sexually assault her, beat her, and

1425
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:03,400
leave her for dead.

1426
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:04,400
But she survived.

1427
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:05,400
Oh, good.

1428
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:06,400
Because she's amazing.

1429
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:07,880
Her and her baby survived.

1430
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:08,960
Thank goodness.

1431
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:15,480
And thanks to her, Little was charged and convicted of sexual assault, kidnapping, and attempted

1432
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:21,520
homicide, and thus sentenced to three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of

1433
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:23,480
parole, there's no more good behavior.

1434
01:12:23,480 --> 01:12:28,920
Wouldn't it be great though if they had just kept him and then that woman didn't have to

1435
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:29,920
endure that?

1436
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:31,560
Do you want to know the worst part about this?

1437
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:32,560
Oh, no.

1438
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:37,840
Dwayne's wife was pregnant at the time he assaulted this pregnant girl.

1439
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:39,680
What the frick?

1440
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:41,600
There are no- And also again, he has a wife.

1441
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:42,600
Yeah.

1442
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:45,400
I'm like, first of all, okay, who is marrying him?

1443
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:47,640
So I have no words.

1444
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:51,240
I mean- Yeah, I- Yeah.

1445
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,880
That's all I can say.

1446
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:58,880
Police believed that the two men and woman in the truck reported by the Los Angeles family

1447
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:04,560
earlier that we talked about at the campground were in fact little and his parents as their

1448
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,240
truck matched the description provided by the family.

1449
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:12,400
And he and his parents denied any knowledge of the Cowden's disappearances.

1450
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:18,600
However, a minor who owned a cabin nearby claimed they had stopped there on Monday, September

1451
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,360
2nd in 1974, the day after the Cowden's were reported missing.

1452
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:27,360
And they had proof of this because they signed the guest book he kept for visitors.

1453
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:29,360
Oh my God.

1454
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:30,440
Yeah.

1455
01:13:30,440 --> 01:13:37,040
The general consensus is the uneasiness that family from California felt is they probably-

1456
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,400
They might have had bodies in the back of that pickup waiting to dispose of them.

1457
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:44,120
Also, that means his parents were involved too.

1458
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:45,120
Yes.

1459
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:46,120
Yeah.

1460
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:47,120
It's creepy.

1461
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:49,400
I wasn't going to dwell too much on him because it's like, you know-

1462
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:50,400
Garbage.

1463
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:51,400
Yeah.

1464
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:58,840
But he has a very messed up home life to the point where his dad was generally not well

1465
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:01,960
mentally and his mom was overly protective.

1466
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:03,880
Oh, that's a bad quote.

1467
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:08,040
Yeah, and she actually called her boy perfect.

1468
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:12,680
She also was stated saying that she would never believe her son did anything wrong until

1469
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:14,360
he actually confessed.

1470
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,880
So try to keep yourself in his mom's good graces.

1471
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,120
He's like, I've never done anything wrong in my life.

1472
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:22,120
And she's like, I know this and I love you.

1473
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:23,120
Yeah.

1474
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:24,560
We're like, ma'am, ma'am, please.

1475
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:25,560
Please stop.

1476
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:26,560
Yeah.

1477
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:30,720
So, now he is in the Oregon State Penitentiary.

1478
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:38,240
His cellmate at one point, Floyd Forsberg, claimed that he overheard litter-

1479
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:40,240
He is litter.

1480
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:41,240
He's litter.

1481
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:44,200
He's a little bit litter.

1482
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:45,360
But yeah.

1483
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:49,800
He heard little confessing to the Cowden's murder.

1484
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:54,640
But Forsberg, unfortunately, was known to be unreliable as he himself had confessed

1485
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:56,920
to crimes that he had nothing to do with.

1486
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:57,920
Yeah.

1487
01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,760
Which is like, oh, Floyd, we were rooting for you.

1488
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,520
Plus prison snitches, if they're getting a deal.

1489
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:04,520
Yeah.

1490
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:05,520
I don't know.

1491
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:06,520
Little suss.

1492
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:07,520
Exactly.

1493
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:14,880
So it turns out that Dwayne was never cooperative with mental health treatment.

1494
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:19,480
And he has always refused to discuss any of the murders he was accused of.

1495
01:15:19,480 --> 01:15:21,640
Probably because he's like, my mom will be mad at me.

1496
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:22,640
Yeah.

1497
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:23,640
I'll be a perfect boy.

1498
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,720
Why don't you just be a litter person?

1499
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:27,720
Yeah.

1500
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:34,240
Dwayne Lee Little is still incarcerated at the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem.

1501
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:39,640
Like he literally listened to this episode and he could hear us call him a garbage person.

1502
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:40,640
I'm okay with that.

1503
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:41,640
Me too.

1504
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:44,600
I'm like, Dwayne, please just, please just give it up.

1505
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:46,400
Yeah, life.

1506
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,080
And he will never be paroled again.

1507
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:54,680
So will we ever get information about him being involved with the Cowden family or any

1508
01:15:54,680 --> 01:16:01,240
more information as to what happened to this poor family in Southern Oregon?

1509
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:03,200
One can only hope.

1510
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:10,040
And that is the tragic story of the mysterious disappearance and murders of the Cowden family.

1511
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:12,600
Well, that was very upsetting.

1512
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:13,600
I know.

1513
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:14,600
I know.

1514
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:15,600
I know.

1515
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,880
Reading about it, it just kept making me more and more upset.

1516
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:23,920
And when you look at pictures, of course they didn't show any pictures of the bodies,

1517
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:32,840
but just seeing Droopy's little face and then seeing a mugshot of Dwayne, you're just like,

1518
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:33,840
why?

1519
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:34,840
Yeah.

1520
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:38,880
I guess it's frustrating when people feel like they have the right to other people.

1521
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:39,880
Yeah.

1522
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:42,120
No, it says nothing.

1523
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:43,720
Just keep it to yourself.

1524
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:44,720
Yeah.

1525
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:51,000
Just a sweet little family that's just trying to have a little nice weekend together.

1526
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,800
And it's just, it's frustrating when like we talked about earlier, like that cruel twist

1527
01:16:54,800 --> 01:17:01,400
of fate of he had original plans that weekend of like working on his driveway.

1528
01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:04,280
That truck broke down and they're like, well, let's go camping.

1529
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:08,720
It's like, oh man, everything could have been so much different.

1530
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:09,720
Yeah.

1531
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:10,720
So bad.

1532
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:15,560
So anyway, that was, that's that.

1533
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:20,240
And that was a, what was the theme of our episode?

1534
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:21,240
Cold cases.

1535
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,480
Cold cases, but it's kind of like a cold case slash.

1536
01:17:24,480 --> 01:17:25,920
Oregon camping.

1537
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:26,920
Camping.

1538
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:27,920
Yeah.

1539
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:28,920
Yeah.

1540
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:29,920
Just be careful when camping.

1541
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,960
I've, a few times I've dry camped, which is the kind where you're not in a campground

1542
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:36,320
and it's like, you have no amenities and you kind of rough it.

1543
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:39,120
And I was uncomfortable the whole time.

1544
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:41,360
Or be like me and just don't camp.

1545
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:42,360
Yeah.

1546
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:43,360
Yeah.

1547
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:45,960
And like the last time I camped, I was in a legit campsite.

1548
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:48,600
It was, I actually liked it so much.

1549
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:54,160
Like yeah, you don't have as much of like the roughing it, but you literally have neighbors.

1550
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:56,120
You have people all around you.

1551
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:57,120
Yeah.

1552
01:17:57,120 --> 01:18:00,760
I just, I feel like it's wise to just go where there are people.

1553
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:01,760
Yeah.

1554
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:03,880
Even though people sometimes can be the worst.

1555
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:04,880
True.

1556
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:10,880
Or like when I see people go in like big groups, like of big families or like a big friend

1557
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:12,640
group, I feel like that's good.

1558
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:14,520
You know, you have like lots of buddies with you.

1559
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:15,520
Yeah.

1560
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:18,120
You can jump whoever tries to come for you.

1561
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:19,120
Yeah.

1562
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:25,120
But I don't think that'll be me anytime soon camping unless my husband convinces me.

1563
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:26,120
No.

1564
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:27,120
Yeah.

1565
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:31,840
We can go on a nice nature walk around other people.

1566
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:32,840
Yeah.

1567
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:34,840
And then we can just like go stay in a hotel or something.

1568
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:35,840
Yeah.

1569
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:36,840
And have a glass of wine after.

1570
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:37,840
Yeah.

1571
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:38,840
And listen to Taylor Swift.

1572
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:43,040
And watch them, a terrible shark movie.

1573
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:44,040
Yeah.

1574
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:45,040
Like full circle.

1575
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:46,040
Bring it back.

1576
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:47,040
Bring it back.

1577
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:51,960
Well, this was a nice episode despite the gruesome details.

1578
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:52,960
Yes.

1579
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:58,520
And I'm really excited for whatever our next theme is for next time.

1580
01:18:58,520 --> 01:18:59,520
I know.

1581
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:00,520
Me too.

1582
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:01,920
I'm like, you guys don't know.

1583
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:02,920
And we don't know either.

1584
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:03,920
And we don't know either.

1585
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:07,240
And maybe there's a chance it could be a little lighthearted next time.

1586
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:08,240
We don't know.

1587
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:09,240
We'll find out.

1588
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:11,240
You'll never decide what our brains will.

1589
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:12,480
You'll never decide.

1590
01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:13,720
You never know what we'll decide.

1591
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:14,720
Yeah.

1592
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:16,520
And you might not ever decide what our brains will do either.

1593
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:17,520
No.

1594
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:19,120
Or if you want to listen to us.

1595
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:22,720
But if you could, that would be kind of a cool power.

1596
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:24,720
Someone's just like sending us a mind message.

1597
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:29,200
They're like, they're like, next year do your taxes early.

1598
01:19:29,200 --> 01:19:31,200
I'm like, thank you, person.

1599
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:32,600
I'm like, I know.

1600
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:35,960
I always think that to myself and then I never do.

1601
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:36,960
No.

1602
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:37,960
Same.

1603
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:38,960
Yeah.

1604
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:42,800
Mel, do you have anything to add before we wrap this guy up?

1605
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:44,200
I don't think so.

1606
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:49,800
I can't think of anything new with the pod or anything.

1607
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:56,480
If you have any thoughts, questions, maybe hopefully not complaints, but you know, whatever

1608
01:19:56,480 --> 01:20:02,320
you are free to do what you want, you can email us oddlycuriouspodcastatgmail.com.

1609
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:08,200
But also, one of my favorite things that I am going to steal from another podcast.

1610
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:11,360
If you don't like us, you don't have to listen.

1611
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:14,160
And I truly don't mean that in a mean way.

1612
01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:16,760
Like, if I don't like a podcast, I don't.

1613
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:17,760
I stop listening.

1614
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:18,760
I don't complain.

1615
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:19,760
Leave a review.

1616
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:20,760
I just am like, this isn't for me.

1617
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:21,760
This isn't for me.

1618
01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:22,760
And that's cool.

1619
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:23,760
Yeah.

1620
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:24,760
It's not like a restaurant.

1621
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:25,760
You won't be getting sick.

1622
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:26,760
No.

1623
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:27,760
You just don't have to say anything.

1624
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:28,760
You just move on.

1625
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:29,760
Yeah.

1626
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,760
And be like, forget we ever existed.

1627
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:34,760
Yeah.

1628
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:37,960
I forgot that you existed.

1629
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:43,760
It all comes back to Taylor Swift.

1630
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:44,760
It's a T-swift.

1631
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,360
But yeah, I think that's it.

1632
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:48,360
Okay.

1633
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:58,360
So, be careful if you go camping and use the buddy system.

1634
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:03,880
And take care of your friends, even if they don't want to talk to you again after you've

1635
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:05,360
had a traumatic experience.

1636
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:06,360
Yeah.

1637
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:11,680
Just, you know, everyone deals with trauma and life differently.

1638
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:12,680
And that's okay.

1639
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:16,600
And we love you.

1640
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:17,600
We love you.

1641
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:20,000
And if you are a violent murderer.

1642
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:21,000
We don't love you.

1643
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:24,520
Don't get out of prison early because of good behavior.

1644
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:27,760
Your good behavior has us fooled and it's not real.

1645
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:28,760
No.

1646
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:29,760
You can't lie to us.

1647
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:30,760
No.

1648
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:31,760
And yes, oh yeah, back to that.

1649
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:32,760
We do love you.

1650
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:33,760
Thank you so much.

1651
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:34,760
Goodbye.

1652
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:51,960
Everybody, teach me when to get to school.

1653
01:21:51,960 --> 01:22:03,300
Students, how many more people would you like to have in school?