WEBVTT 00:00:01.610 --> 00:00:04.730 Today is a very special day on the show because 00:00:04.730 --> 00:00:07.849 my guest is not just an expert. She's family. 00:00:07.969 --> 00:00:11.210 My sister, respected journalist and insightful 00:00:11.210 --> 00:00:14.810 political commentator Bertha Henson. We are here 00:00:14.810 --> 00:00:17.890 because of her latest work, How to Be a Singapore 00:00:17.890 --> 00:00:21.829 Election Superstar. This isn't just another book. 00:00:22.149 --> 00:00:24.730 It's a deep dive into the world she has observed 00:00:24.730 --> 00:00:28.250 and analysed for most of her career. She's giving 00:00:28.250 --> 00:00:30.839 us a personal, honest look. and the political 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:33.759 journey, helped along by the sharp wit of her 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:36.899 two fictional civil servants, Chin and Chai. 00:00:37.420 --> 00:00:40.100 I'll be asking her about the true sacrifices 00:00:40.100 --> 00:00:43.399 of public service, the complexities of our system, 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:46.359 and why she felt compelled to share this knowledge 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:49.719 with her readers now. This is a story about the 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:53.179 rules, the risks, and the reality of the Singapore 00:00:53.179 --> 00:01:01.049 political dream. Hi, everybody. We're at this 00:01:01.049 --> 00:01:04.109 place, the Labrador Tower called Gets Up for 00:01:04.109 --> 00:01:08.650 my sister, Bertha Henson's new book launch for 00:01:08.650 --> 00:01:15.189 how to be a Singapore GE superstar. Let's check 00:01:15.189 --> 00:01:16.609 out what's happening in the book launch right 00:01:16.609 --> 00:01:33.310 now. Please write more books. Write more, more 00:01:33.310 --> 00:01:37.930 books. Facebook is not enough. We need the proper 00:01:37.930 --> 00:01:41.950 books. Thanks, Bertha, for contributing to the 00:01:41.950 --> 00:01:44.989 discourse of Singapore politics. May you continue 00:01:44.989 --> 00:01:48.109 to do so and stay healthy always. Thank you. 00:01:48.230 --> 00:01:50.969 Hi, Bertha. It's great to be here at your book 00:01:50.969 --> 00:01:53.989 launch. All the best to you. Hi, Bertha. Congrats 00:01:53.989 --> 00:01:56.409 to your book launch. All the best. She's a very 00:01:56.409 --> 00:01:59.060 beautiful woman, right? And she has written a 00:01:59.060 --> 00:02:03.200 very nice book, which I haven't read. I haven't 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.980 read, but I presume it's good. So if it's no 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:08.319 good, I'll come to her. Okay. Okay. A refund. 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.240 A refund. Yeah, I need a refund. I want to thank 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:13.599 everyone. Those of you who've made the time to 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:16.560 come here. Thank you for buying the book. And 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:24.520 you can still buy some more. Okay. The Sure Move 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:27.400 Mic 2 receiver kit was used during the filming 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:29.840 of this episode. Some things that people don't 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:32.719 know, I mean, you know, are also in the book. 00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:36.180 Of course, I mean, basically, if I've covered 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:38.139 elections, there are some things that I don't 00:02:38.139 --> 00:02:42.000 write much about, which I do, you know, or some 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.879 things I expand more on. So they will find some 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:47.780 interesting things. All the more reason for you 00:02:47.780 --> 00:02:50.919 people to pick up the book. Really, man. I mean, 00:02:50.939 --> 00:02:52.699 hidden little gems that you don't know about. 00:02:56.420 --> 00:02:59.819 Before we begin the show, here is an important 00:02:59.819 --> 00:03:03.740 announcement. For 100 years, Shure has set the 00:03:03.740 --> 00:03:06.360 standard for professional audio. Designed to 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.460 outlast and outperform, Shure products help you 00:03:09.460 --> 00:03:11.900 deliver your message with confidence. Trust in 00:03:11.900 --> 00:03:15.180 Shure. You can be Shure with Shure. Shop the 00:03:15.180 --> 00:03:17.960 SureShop Singapore now. Visit the link on screen 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.599 and use the promo code AFCHENSON to get limited 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.919 Sure merchandise with your purchases. Now, let's 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:30.300 start the show. Welcome to this episode, everyone, 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:33.599 for our series called Ink Spill, where we feature 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:36.780 writers, authors, poets, people who are really 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:38.400 struggling to make money, you know, because their 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.020 books, you know, nobody bloody reads, right? 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:46.560 We say that in this series of Ink Spill. But 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:48.879 I have with me in studio once again for this 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:51.919 season, like I did last season, my sister, Bertha 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:55.969 Hansen. Hello! Hey, hello. I guess my brother 00:03:55.969 --> 00:03:58.169 didn't have much of a choice. Since I'm his sister 00:03:58.169 --> 00:04:00.449 and he does ink spilling, he better start with 00:04:00.449 --> 00:04:03.250 me. I got to spill your ink lah. Oh, I will kill 00:04:03.250 --> 00:04:07.129 him. Very simple. No choice. Gunpoint. Okay. 00:04:08.229 --> 00:04:11.830 Okay, sis. So today, this afternoon, you launch 00:04:11.830 --> 00:04:16.350 your new book. Yep. So it's in Kinokuniya. It's 00:04:16.350 --> 00:04:18.610 in Popular Bookstore. And it's in the other one. 00:04:18.649 --> 00:04:20.629 What's it called? The Book Bar. The Book Bar. 00:04:21.509 --> 00:04:24.470 Where they serve you books and no booze. And 00:04:24.470 --> 00:04:26.629 it's available in all these places, including 00:04:26.629 --> 00:04:30.850 online. And if people want to go to Popular Bookstore 00:04:30.850 --> 00:04:37.069 today or go to Kinokuniya, they go to the self 00:04:37.069 --> 00:04:39.089 -help section to buy a book. No, actually, it's 00:04:39.089 --> 00:04:41.959 out in front. Very nice. They displayed it out 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:45.040 in front. Because it's a how -to. If it's a how 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.259 -to thing, I would think it is self -help. She's 00:04:48.259 --> 00:04:50.699 got a new book. As you can see, it's on our podcast 00:04:50.699 --> 00:04:54.279 desk. It's called How to Be a Singapore... I 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:56.139 cannot say that word because, you know, YouTube 00:04:56.139 --> 00:04:57.839 not fair one, but you can read it for yourself. 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:00.779 It's right there. I cannot mention the E word 00:05:00.779 --> 00:05:04.519 for some strange reason. Okay? Otherwise, I'm 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:07.430 going to get in trouble with... the powers that 00:05:07.430 --> 00:05:10.949 be behind YouTube. But you can see the title 00:05:10.949 --> 00:05:14.050 of the book, How to Be a Singapore Eh Eh Eh Superstar. 00:05:15.110 --> 00:05:19.990 And it's a how -to book. If you're thinking of 00:05:19.990 --> 00:05:22.149 becoming, am I right? If you're thinking of becoming 00:05:22.149 --> 00:05:25.870 the next Big Sing and the next GE, please refer 00:05:25.870 --> 00:05:29.209 to this book. No, I mean, it's not really a how 00:05:29.209 --> 00:05:33.750 -to. A how -to is a way in which I can encapsulate 00:05:33.750 --> 00:05:36.850 everything in it with a very general... I mean, 00:05:36.889 --> 00:05:39.290 it could have been, excuse me, are you a politician? 00:05:39.670 --> 00:05:43.589 It could have been just that too. But this is 00:05:43.589 --> 00:05:48.629 not a serious review. I would think it's quite 00:05:48.629 --> 00:05:51.899 serious. It's just written in a very... not -so 00:05:51.899 --> 00:05:54.819 -serious way. The content is way serious. The 00:05:54.819 --> 00:05:57.000 content is serious, but done in a not -so -serious 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.560 way. What is your main goal, actually, when you 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:02.060 first started out writing the book? Well, you 00:06:02.060 --> 00:06:06.920 know, I had a G or whatever, that G -E. No, G 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:12.579 -E is okay. Okay, G -E book for 2020. So, this 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:15.360 time round, I was thinking, I don't want to do 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:19.019 the same thing, you know, which is G -E 2025. 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:24.139 So I decided that it's time maybe I pull everything 00:06:24.139 --> 00:06:27.319 I know together and find a concept to fit it 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:32.120 in. So basically, me and my partner in crime, 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:34.839 Cheyenne, we managed to come up with a concept 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:37.560 and marry some of the things that we have done 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:43.199 together, like the Chin and Chai couple. Which 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:45.939 has become, what's the word for it? Which has 00:06:45.939 --> 00:06:50.540 become a cartoon strip. Well, I'm not so sure 00:06:50.540 --> 00:06:52.939 that it's become a cartoon. Well, we call it 00:06:52.939 --> 00:06:54.680 a cartoon strip. We did start off as a cartoon 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:56.779 strip before. It started out actually as just 00:06:56.779 --> 00:06:59.519 two guys and it's all text. It started out all 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:01.399 text. Correct. It's all text. Yeah. And then 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:04.139 later on, you know, basically then I realized 00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:06.720 Cheyenne can do this kind of things, draw cartoons 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:09.360 and stuff. So we decided, okay, let's make it 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.740 more interesting for people and use it to explain 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:17.610 political issues or any kind of concepts. So 00:07:17.610 --> 00:07:20.769 that's what we did with the two bureaucrats here. 00:07:21.050 --> 00:07:25.769 In case some of you who was just watching Bertha 00:07:25.769 --> 00:07:28.649 for the first time on my show and you didn't 00:07:28.649 --> 00:07:30.509 watch the episode last season, you should have. 00:07:30.569 --> 00:07:34.050 If you haven't, go find it and watch it. Cheyenne, 00:07:34.350 --> 00:07:37.610 her so -called partner in crime, is not a lady. 00:07:39.170 --> 00:07:42.709 No. Strangely. To this day, I still don't know 00:07:42.709 --> 00:07:45.970 what the fellow's name is. But he goes by Cheyenne. 00:07:46.189 --> 00:07:48.750 Can you beat that? Okay. Anyway, you said the 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:51.750 book is hopefully entertaining, but also informative. 00:07:52.110 --> 00:07:55.829 Yes. So what was the hardest part about making 00:07:55.829 --> 00:07:58.910 serious Singapore politics easy and fun to read? 00:07:59.269 --> 00:08:02.509 Wow. You know, I'm lucky to have a lot of experience 00:08:02.509 --> 00:08:07.430 making serious things readable. So basically 00:08:07.430 --> 00:08:10.300 how to boil down concepts. Make sure that, you 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:12.259 know, you can read from beginning to end without 00:08:12.259 --> 00:08:14.800 having to stop and say, hey, what's happening? 00:08:14.899 --> 00:08:16.959 What are you talking about? So, I mean, that's 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.560 a very useful skill I've used for the book. Okay. 00:08:21.339 --> 00:08:24.420 Then secondly, you know, what was not easy was 00:08:24.420 --> 00:08:27.720 there's so much information. So, you know, how 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.600 do you put it together? You know, divide up the 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.519 chapters, come up with a concept. Make sure it 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:40.000 isn't one long, boring read. So we had to find 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:44.259 new ways of chopping up the narrative, so to 00:08:44.259 --> 00:08:48.139 speak. And this wasn't going to be a GE 2025 00:08:48.139 --> 00:08:51.799 review. We wanted it to be much bigger so that 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:55.759 young people will be able to understand what 00:08:55.759 --> 00:09:00.179 the Singapore political system is like. And also, 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.500 old people... I think it would be a very good 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:06.340 nostalgic refresher for them because there are 00:09:06.340 --> 00:09:09.259 lots of stories in it as well. How about any 00:09:09.259 --> 00:09:12.200 young person out there who picks up this book 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:16.019 and do you think it would be a good handbook 00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:19.480 of sorts to guide them along to? Maybe I will 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:24.169 run for the next. Or a few GEs later. Well, I 00:09:24.169 --> 00:09:26.129 can tell you that the later half of the book 00:09:26.129 --> 00:09:28.929 has plenty of tips. Like, you know, what you 00:09:28.929 --> 00:09:31.070 do when you meet residents. Ah, there you go. 00:09:31.190 --> 00:09:34.549 What you do at rallies. What you don't do. What 00:09:34.549 --> 00:09:37.909 will get into trouble. Even a look at some of 00:09:37.909 --> 00:09:40.409 the rules. Not just the political structure, 00:09:40.529 --> 00:09:42.610 but, you know, the electoral rules themselves. 00:09:43.009 --> 00:09:46.610 Right. You know. So, I think there should be 00:09:46.610 --> 00:09:49.629 quite a lot there. You know. I mean, I've covered 00:09:49.629 --> 00:09:53.169 elections. for many, many years. So, you know, 00:09:53.190 --> 00:09:55.409 some of the tricks and, you know, the twists 00:09:55.409 --> 00:09:58.190 and the turns, I'm quite able to put that down. 00:09:58.289 --> 00:10:00.669 Okay, now that you're talking about that, since 00:10:00.669 --> 00:10:04.309 1988, you've been covering GEs, right? You said 00:10:04.309 --> 00:10:07.289 the E word fully just now. Okay, okay. Okay, 00:10:07.289 --> 00:10:10.450 we're going to bleep that one out, Kai. What's 00:10:10.450 --> 00:10:14.509 the one biggest difference in Singapore politics 00:10:14.509 --> 00:10:17.889 today that a new candidate needs to know before 00:10:17.889 --> 00:10:20.139 jumping in? I would just say read my book. There's 00:10:20.139 --> 00:10:22.700 so many things. There's just so many things. 00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:24.600 Do you want me to go and give the game away? 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:27.740 I think basically we must understand that. One 00:10:27.740 --> 00:10:29.539 thing, one thing. Biggest difference. The biggest 00:10:29.539 --> 00:10:33.720 difference. Wow, that is very hard. You mean 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.320 the biggest difference compared to what? The 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:39.779 biggest difference. What's the one biggest difference 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:44.120 in Singapore politics in general today as compared 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:47.009 to all these years? In the past? In the past. 00:10:47.309 --> 00:10:49.710 Oh, okay. Then you get the need to know before 00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:52.629 jumping in. I think essentially, first of all, 00:10:52.629 --> 00:10:54.350 the electorate has changed. That's something 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:57.549 that's very clear. Okay. Yeah. So the demands 00:10:57.549 --> 00:11:00.389 of the electorate are quite different then than 00:11:00.389 --> 00:11:04.470 now. Also the competition, I don't just mean 00:11:04.470 --> 00:11:07.669 within the PAP, but also among the opposition 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:11.629 slate, it's gotten heavier, it's more contestable 00:11:11.629 --> 00:11:15.919 now. Okay. So you do, you can't just be, one 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:17.960 bright spark and that's it, you know, and hope 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:19.700 to make waves, you know, because there are a 00:11:19.700 --> 00:11:22.360 lot of different bright sparks there. Okay. And 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.500 so you have to, in a sense, measure yourself 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:28.759 against them as well. Okay. So like, for example, 00:11:28.899 --> 00:11:31.960 in my first two chapters, the first chapter is, 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.879 you know, so it's, you know, you think what, 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.779 you have what it takes, first of all, you know, 00:11:37.779 --> 00:11:42.559 so it goes from the, I wouldn't call silly, but 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:44.139 you know, the little things like, you know, have 00:11:44.139 --> 00:11:47.669 you got the guts? Have you got the brains? Uh, 00:11:47.830 --> 00:11:50.909 you know, can you take some of the jokes? Uh, 00:11:51.009 --> 00:11:53.809 are you too thin skin? You know, so some of the 00:11:53.809 --> 00:11:57.629 things, uh, uh, and they're all backed up with 00:11:57.629 --> 00:12:00.669 anecdotes of the past, the people who could take 00:12:00.669 --> 00:12:03.590 it or couldn't take it, you know? And, and so 00:12:03.590 --> 00:12:07.129 basically if you want to talk about it, it's 00:12:07.129 --> 00:12:10.230 all in the book. Yes. It's all in the book. Yeah. 00:12:10.649 --> 00:12:14.220 Uh, some things that, uh, Some things that people 00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:17.320 don't know, I mean, you know, are also in the 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.159 book. Of course, I mean, basically, you know, 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.299 if I've covered elections, there are some things 00:12:22.299 --> 00:12:25.519 that I don't write much about, which I do, you 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:28.340 know, or some things I expand more on, some, 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.019 you know. So they will find some interesting 00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:32.960 things. All the more reason for you people to 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.980 pick up the book. Really, man. I mean, hidden 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:39.340 little gems that you don't know about. And you 00:12:39.340 --> 00:12:43.370 use the last G. to frame the whole discussion 00:12:43.370 --> 00:12:45.950 in your book, right? How did the shift to our 00:12:45.950 --> 00:12:49.289 current PM's leadership affect the way you wrote 00:12:49.289 --> 00:12:51.769 about the party, his party, the leading party, 00:12:51.990 --> 00:12:56.009 and the political future? Oh, in the book? Yeah. 00:12:56.070 --> 00:12:58.950 You mean in the book? Yeah. Not very much, really. 00:12:59.169 --> 00:13:03.230 I mean, basically, referring to the GE itself, 00:13:03.370 --> 00:13:09.019 well, it was really a new... PM coming into the 00:13:09.019 --> 00:13:13.860 system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, this GE is in 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:17.480 fact some kind of mandate of sorts to legitimize 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.500 his position. Right. Both in the country and 00:13:20.500 --> 00:13:23.120 in the party. But, you know, I don't think I 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.840 dealt so much on that, on that part of it. Okay. 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.960 In the book. You know, as I said, it isn't just 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:34.460 a commentary on this GE, you see. Okay. Because 00:13:34.460 --> 00:13:37.340 I took a much broader look. Like, for example, 00:13:37.620 --> 00:13:43.779 the GRCs, the NCMP scheme, the nominated MP. 00:13:44.259 --> 00:13:46.620 So there were all these other things, you know, 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:51.139 that sort of deal with the structure, the infrastructure 00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:54.379 of the system that I also talked about. So that 00:13:54.379 --> 00:13:57.159 makes it quite different from past books. So 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:00.659 we can safely say that this is not a review of 00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:03.960 this year's. Of the latest, the last recently. 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:05.940 I would like to say I came out with a summary. 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:10.279 It's basically like part primer, you know, part 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:14.860 history, part review. That's why I said the concept 00:14:14.860 --> 00:14:19.679 is different and difficult to come up with. In 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.340 fact, I tell you, I don't know how many times 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:24.940 I had to rewrite and change my first chapter, 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:27.960 you know, because I realized that if I do it 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.220 this way, I can't fit this. If I do it that way, 00:14:30.259 --> 00:14:34.179 I can't fit this. So basically, we took a lot 00:14:34.179 --> 00:14:37.820 of time just defining how we want to conceptualize 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:43.080 it. Okay. Your chapter asks, can tahan or not? 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:46.399 For a regular person thinking of joining politics, 00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:50.179 what is the single most brutal part of the job 00:14:50.179 --> 00:14:54.360 that people don't realize until they start? Start 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:57.480 as a candidate or start as a politician? As a 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.259 candidate. As a candidate. It's tough out there, 00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:02.649 man. I mean, you know, I think whether you're 00:15:02.649 --> 00:15:05.110 on the ruling party side or on the other side, 00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:08.929 it's tough out there. Because essentially, people 00:15:08.929 --> 00:15:10.870 are getting a lot more demanding, that's for 00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:14.210 sure. So they have certain expectations which, 00:15:14.330 --> 00:15:17.230 and if you don't meet them, I think the good 00:15:17.230 --> 00:15:19.450 thing is Singaporeans mainly are polite. Yeah. 00:15:19.990 --> 00:15:23.809 But, you know, it does have an, and if you are 00:15:23.809 --> 00:15:25.789 thin -skinned, it will have a very bad effect 00:15:25.789 --> 00:15:28.789 on you. Okay. So that's tough, you know. And 00:15:28.789 --> 00:15:34.799 I find that, being able to relate to other people 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.220 in people to people will get harder and harder, 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:41.259 you know, because I see the younger and younger 00:15:41.259 --> 00:15:43.419 lot just don't know how to do it anymore. Yeah. 00:15:43.460 --> 00:15:46.240 You know, but the other thing is this, you still 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.080 cannot do without the personal touch because 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.419 even if they don't know how to do it or can't 00:15:51.419 --> 00:15:53.500 do it, people appreciate it. Yeah, they can't 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:55.980 leave it to an AI. Yeah, people appreciate it. 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:57.620 People appreciate it because, you know, you sort 00:15:57.620 --> 00:16:01.000 of took the time. Yeah. We've been doing nothing 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.080 this season, Akai, except talking about AI, right? 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.299 Oh, no. Yeah, there's a lot of talk about AI. 00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:09.879 All right. You said, you talk about how voters 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:14.200 care so much about candidates' academic record. 00:16:15.299 --> 00:16:18.279 Why do Singaporeans value having a lot of degrees 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:20.179 more than real -life, on -the -ground experience? 00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:23.340 Did I say they value academic records? I did, 00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:26.340 huh? Yeah. So one of the things I said that is 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:31.460 something that you must have. I mean, of course, 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.659 Singaporeans will all say we don't care. Yeah. 00:16:35.059 --> 00:16:38.759 But we do. So, you know, let's not be so whatever 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.679 about it. I mean, you know, you have to be someone 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:46.299 like Chamsitong or something. Right. Who can 00:16:46.299 --> 00:16:50.159 get through this, you know. But then, you know, 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.059 in that sense, we reward the people who try to 00:16:53.059 --> 00:16:56.320 work very hard. very, very hard. But now, you 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.899 want to come in, you know, and you want a good 00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:04.019 first shot at it, you better have some of that 00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:06.440 behind you lah. Some credentials. Some credentials. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.920 And that's the term now that people are using. 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.220 It's not like whether you're a good academic 00:17:12.220 --> 00:17:14.579 star or whatever. Yeah. It's basically, are you 00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:16.720 highly credentialed? Yeah, which basically means 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.319 your academic record lah. No lah. But also means 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:22.400 like, you know, after that, You know, you have 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.779 some position, work in some place, you know, 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:29.059 your startup or whatever. So, you know, so, you 00:17:29.059 --> 00:17:34.819 can't have people who, who, with nothing to really 00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:38.000 show and then have the people say, you're okay. 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.299 Not now. So, basically, that hasn't changed. 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.299 It's the same, isn't it? It's been like that 00:17:44.299 --> 00:17:47.720 all the while. True. That would be true if there 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:51.880 were no other issues at play. Yeah. They still 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:54.299 want to see whether or not you've got, which 00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:57.799 school you came from, what your degree is, what 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:01.599 degree do you have. Yeah. Although sometimes 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:04.000 it may kiss of death. I mean, if you've got a 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.279 great degree and double degrees or whatever, 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:08.799 it's best not to harp too much on it. So lucky 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:10.279 thing, we've got somebody from Tanjung Katung 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:15.339 Secondary. Who? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. My 00:18:15.339 --> 00:18:19.190 neighbouring school. My neighbouring school. 00:18:19.369 --> 00:18:20.569 Yeah, man. I mean, just think about it. You know, 00:18:20.589 --> 00:18:24.690 I was quite proud of it, actually, when I heard 00:18:24.690 --> 00:18:27.069 that he was from, it was in those days called 00:18:27.069 --> 00:18:29.630 TK Tech. Correct, TK Tech, yeah. So, you know, 00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:31.869 from TK Tech, I said, wah, not bad. Actually, 00:18:31.930 --> 00:18:34.400 I wonder why they call it. Tanjung Katung Secondary, 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.640 you know, when actually with his time, it was 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:38.359 still TK Tech, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know. 00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:41.279 He's not much younger than me. So, yeah, I used 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.519 to go there for, we used to, a lot of us used 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:45.440 to go there for technical classes. Technical 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.240 classes. Yes, yes, yes. So, I wonder why they 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.599 call it, eh, TK Tech is TK Tech lah. They need 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:52.819 to go and sugarcoat the whole thing and call 00:18:52.819 --> 00:18:56.099 it Tanjung Katung Secondary School lah. Okay, 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:01.339 let's talk about politicians. MPs often regret 00:19:01.339 --> 00:19:04.900 missing their family life. From watching the 00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:07.000 system, what's the one thing that needs to be 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.839 fixed so an MP can have a more normal family 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:14.380 life? Opinion, opinion. You know, I think the 00:19:14.380 --> 00:19:17.019 first thing you should understand is that when 00:19:17.019 --> 00:19:20.579 you go into this, you should not expect a normal 00:19:20.579 --> 00:19:25.180 life. I mean, sorry, but you have decided that 00:19:25.180 --> 00:19:27.720 you are worth coming into public service. You 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.869 got married to it. Yeah, and I think it is up 00:19:30.869 --> 00:19:33.269 to your family to be more understanding of your 00:19:33.269 --> 00:19:36.569 ambitions and your wishes. So, you know, I don't 00:19:36.569 --> 00:19:39.650 think flexible work -life balance is something 00:19:39.650 --> 00:19:43.809 we should give to our respective representatives 00:19:43.809 --> 00:19:46.569 in parliament. You know, I mean, just imagine 00:19:46.569 --> 00:19:48.730 you come and then you want my vote and you say, 00:19:48.789 --> 00:19:50.930 oh, by the way, I only work nine to five. Oh, 00:19:50.930 --> 00:19:53.329 come on. But 20, 25 years from today, when you 00:19:53.329 --> 00:19:55.440 have our Xennials in leadership. They probably 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.200 might want to look at things that way, you know. 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.059 If they want to. Work -life balance, you know, 00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:02.000 even for a politician. No, no, no. You get work 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.440 -life balance for me. It doesn't mean that you 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:07.619 are the ones with work -life balance. I mean, 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:09.500 I know we don't want to be like the Japanese 00:20:09.500 --> 00:20:11.279 Prime Minister. Sis, you and I will be super 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.200 bloody old by then. You know, they're not going 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.460 to listen to us. No, no, no. You see like the 00:20:16.460 --> 00:20:19.680 Japanese Prime Minister, right? She's a one workaholic 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.440 apparently, you know. I mean, I don't expect 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:27.029 you to... To go that far. But if you do, I won't 00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:29.970 say a word. But I don't think you should complain 00:20:29.970 --> 00:20:32.609 about it. She doesn't, but her subordinates do. 00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:34.990 And you know. If she works late, they work late 00:20:34.990 --> 00:20:37.769 lah. Yeah, but you know, if you don't want to 00:20:37.769 --> 00:20:39.210 work late, you don't want to be with a boss like 00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:42.869 that, then quit lah. That's true. That's very 00:20:42.869 --> 00:20:45.369 easy for me. Workers' party. The workers' party. 00:20:45.730 --> 00:20:48.390 Otherwise, no, that's not right. I can't say 00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:53.069 that. The workers' party. BAP like? Yes, thank 00:20:53.069 --> 00:20:59.210 you. PAP line. That label, isn't a clever strategy, 00:20:59.349 --> 00:21:01.289 you know, that, you know, you think it helped 00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:03.769 them somewhat in votes or does it hurt them? 00:21:03.970 --> 00:21:06.369 I don't know, you know, I mean, they are trying 00:21:06.369 --> 00:21:09.109 to wear it like a badge of honour, you know, 00:21:09.109 --> 00:21:12.529 to say that, hey, you see, we've reached this 00:21:12.529 --> 00:21:16.130 status. I mean, I've heard a few MPs say that, 00:21:16.210 --> 00:21:22.400 rallies and all that. Frankly, It depends on 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.759 how you view a PAP, like as people with brains 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.339 can execute, maybe not as good, but still like 00:21:31.339 --> 00:21:36.339 that. Or PAP -like as in, just as a very superficial 00:21:36.339 --> 00:21:41.180 version of the PAP. Yeah. Or, you know, I think 00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:43.440 there was a little worry on the PAP side, you 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.539 know, that if you describe them as PAP -like, 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.740 they say, actually okay what, also like PAP. 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.519 So therefore, vote for them would be okay what, 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:53.779 you know. So, you know, it's a tech that can 00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:56.579 be used any which way. Sure. But I tell you how 00:21:56.579 --> 00:22:01.019 I think. I learned about this L -I -T -E thing 00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:05.259 because it's a tech term. When you go to, if 00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:07.900 you want to download an app, right, they've got 00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:11.700 the light version. There's a light version, which 00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:14.099 is a free of charge version. Free of charge version. 00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:16.779 Okay. Which you probably can use for maybe a 00:22:16.779 --> 00:22:18.759 month, two months, three months. And then after 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:20.839 that, you're going to subscribe to the better 00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:24.460 version. I thought I use it in terms of food. 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:30.259 Calorie light, fat light. When okay. Yeah. The 00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:32.700 light version, right? Yes. Of apps and all that, 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.779 right? That's the virtual version. That's the 00:22:34.779 --> 00:22:37.380 cheap Charlie version that all the cheap Charlies 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:39.670 would use. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't want 00:22:39.670 --> 00:22:41.930 to pay for AI, but I use the AI Lite version. 00:22:42.289 --> 00:22:45.849 Yep. Yeah, okay. You're going about AI again. 00:22:45.970 --> 00:22:48.630 Thanks, you know. By the way, if you call the 00:22:48.630 --> 00:22:52.349 Workers' Party PAP Lite, then should you call 00:22:52.349 --> 00:22:57.130 the PAP WP Lite? Ah, have you thought about that? 00:22:57.210 --> 00:23:00.470 I mean, essentially, sometimes... No, because 00:23:00.470 --> 00:23:03.809 I think sometimes the PAP has policies which 00:23:03.809 --> 00:23:07.890 are actually quite... I won't use the word populist 00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:10.490 because they don't like it. And, you know, but 00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:14.490 quite popular, you know. And so basically, you 00:23:14.490 --> 00:23:16.750 know, when they do these things and, you know, 00:23:16.750 --> 00:23:19.349 they always accuse others of wanting to be popular. 00:23:19.769 --> 00:23:22.609 Right. So I would say they are also WP, right? 00:23:25.369 --> 00:23:28.269 Okay. I'm going to move on to the next question. 00:23:28.490 --> 00:23:30.009 I don't want to get myself into bloody trouble. 00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:31.430 I don't know how you do things like this, you 00:23:31.430 --> 00:23:38.309 know. I damn scared. Okay. Your analysis points 00:23:38.309 --> 00:23:41.190 out that the PM controls the committee that draws 00:23:41.190 --> 00:23:43.329 the election boundaries. Correct. If you could 00:23:43.329 --> 00:23:47.369 make one change, what would it be? Do you think 00:23:47.369 --> 00:23:49.430 changes are required in the first place? Oh, 00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:51.809 of course I do. Okay. I think we are an anomaly. 00:23:52.190 --> 00:23:54.750 Okay. Or maybe an anachronism or whatever it 00:23:54.750 --> 00:23:58.329 is. We are a real outlier in this area. Okay. 00:23:59.980 --> 00:24:02.000 Essentially, the one change is basically there 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:06.740 must be some oversight of some sort and shouldn't 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:12.220 be from the ruling party. Do you think by and 00:24:12.220 --> 00:24:15.799 large people know this? That it is an outlier 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.839 when it comes to this? Oh. I don't know. I mean, 00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:24.180 usually, I don't, I think people know that gerrymandering 00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:26.319 takes place everywhere. That's what they call 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.119 it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and sometimes, 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:31.240 you know, people will say I was like, not so 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.819 bad or whatever. Right. But, you know, I don't 00:24:33.819 --> 00:24:36.259 think something like this should be left on the 00:24:36.259 --> 00:24:39.819 basis of trusting the person in charge to make 00:24:39.819 --> 00:24:43.900 sure that the boundaries are fairly distributed. 00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:47.279 I also say. So, you know, and I think there is 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.299 a need for us to open some window into this whole 00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:56.240 room full of maps and whatever to see what they 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:00.400 are up to. Yeah. So, you know, I don't think 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.640 that the government has any leg to stand on where 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.180 the EBRC is concerned, especially when in the 00:25:07.180 --> 00:25:10.359 past, when they were not in government, they 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:13.259 made such a big fuss and wanted all sorts of 00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:16.720 checks. on the committee. So, you know, so when 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.180 you're in power, of course, you think differently, 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:22.420 right? But I really, to me, it's not about who's 00:25:22.420 --> 00:25:24.960 in power, who's not. To me, it's about the people 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:27.720 who live here. Yeah. And you know, what is it 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:33.460 we need? Yeah. To be dependent on basically people 00:25:33.460 --> 00:25:36.819 is to be not good enough. We should be dependent 00:25:36.819 --> 00:25:40.380 on a proper system that is sturdy enough with 00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:43.630 enough checks, enough balances. no matter who 00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:48.190 is holding the power. So that is my key concern 00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:54.009 for Singapore. Okay. The GRC system. Is it still 00:25:54.009 --> 00:25:57.049 the best way to make sure we have minority race 00:25:57.049 --> 00:26:00.630 representation in Parliament? You know, one of 00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:03.150 the reasons I wrote this book is also because 00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:06.970 I happened to be there when a lot of innovations 00:26:06.970 --> 00:26:09.839 were put in place. You know, I mean, the white 00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.740 paper, select committee hearings, all that, I 00:26:12.740 --> 00:26:15.740 was there to report on it. So in fact, it's very 00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:20.859 strange that, you know, like NMPs and GRCs and 00:26:20.859 --> 00:26:24.319 GPCs and town councils, everything happened when 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:26.920 I was in the middle, in the newsroom reporting 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:31.579 on these things. Right. So I have a very close, 00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:36.180 I wouldn't say attachment, but I'm very interested. 00:26:36.730 --> 00:26:41.869 in this sort of topics. The GRCs, you know, one 00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:46.569 thing about our innovations is that there's always 00:26:46.569 --> 00:26:49.670 some justification, which is very natural, no, 00:26:49.769 --> 00:26:54.230 very rational and very commonsensical. But, you 00:26:54.230 --> 00:26:56.869 know, there are ramifications and other consequences 00:26:56.869 --> 00:27:00.509 and side effects that we don't want to look at, 00:27:00.630 --> 00:27:05.680 you know, because we are focused on this. this 00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:08.640 thing called, for instance, multiracial representation. 00:27:09.140 --> 00:27:12.599 Okay. Yeah. So actually, I'm beginning to think 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:18.160 that to have this kind of, if, you know, if the 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.140 idea is that you must like the GRC because it 00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:25.160 guarantees multiracial representation. If not, 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.440 you are not for multiracial representation. It's 00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.039 a very bad argument. You know, I think this kind 00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.619 of first principles argument, maybe 20 years 00:27:33.619 --> 00:27:37.819 ago can. But the fact is, if we agree that multiracial 00:27:37.819 --> 00:27:41.519 representation, you can have it in parliament, 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:44.779 whether you are raised blind or not, if you just 00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:48.380 make the GRC smaller and fewer. Right. You know, 00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:50.519 I mean, you really don't need, you know, the 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.960 whole island. I mean, you look at the state it 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:55.460 is now. I mean, the constitution doesn't say 00:27:55.460 --> 00:27:58.299 you have to go and GRC the whole place and only 00:27:58.299 --> 00:28:00.839 leave like, you know, eight or nine single seat, 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.500 you know. And in the beginning, it didn't start 00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:05.779 that way. Okay. So, you know, then you start 00:28:05.779 --> 00:28:08.779 wondering. Yeah, there were very few, I remember. 00:28:08.980 --> 00:28:11.880 Yes, there were half. Long time ago. When it 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.980 first started out, the parliament, half the seats 00:28:14.980 --> 00:28:17.720 were GRC seats. The other half were single seats. 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:20.779 And there were only three member GRCs and now 00:28:20.779 --> 00:28:23.319 they are not there anymore. But the constitution 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:26.619 does say three members can be there. Okay. So 00:28:26.619 --> 00:28:29.240 it's three to six. So what we don't have now 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:32.420 are the six ones. Okay. Because I think. I think 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:35.400 the PAP, the government realised that people 00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:38.839 were really unhappy about this. Especially since 00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.839 with six member GRCs, there are plenty of walkovers. 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:46.880 You can't find people to stand against you. Do 00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.480 you believe that voters have this assumption 00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:56.039 that if they vote for the opposition, the government 00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:01.349 will punish their town? By withdrawing resources. 00:29:02.289 --> 00:29:05.809 Well, whether the government punishes the town 00:29:05.809 --> 00:29:09.529 or not, frankly speaking, it has realized that 00:29:09.529 --> 00:29:13.390 saying so is not a very politic thing to do. 00:29:14.230 --> 00:29:17.829 Whether they do so in other ways, that's something 00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:20.789 we have to go in and take a look. You know, I 00:29:20.789 --> 00:29:23.049 mean, there was even one time when I remember 00:29:23.049 --> 00:29:26.559 the PM suggesting that they were... pull out, 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:28.700 you know, your PCF kindergartens and stuff. Yeah, 00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:31.079 yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, they didn't, I think, in 00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:33.740 the end. You know, I remember that it was in 00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:36.940 some, it was in a newspaper article that we did 00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:40.220 some research on. Yeah. But I did put that point 00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:42.680 in because I'm not, I don't think it was done. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:46.559 Okay. You know, so it's like the upgrading, HGB 00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:51.220 upgrading carrot. That was a threat. It was perceived 00:29:51.220 --> 00:29:53.940 as a threat. Yeah. And you know, and I think 00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:57.519 the fact that people ignored it, You know, and 00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:02.079 showed that maybe these things can't work. But 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:04.259 you know, one thing I found interesting, even 00:30:04.259 --> 00:30:06.579 till today, people still don't think the vault 00:30:06.579 --> 00:30:10.700 is secret. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Do you think it 00:30:10.700 --> 00:30:14.259 is? Oh, yeah, I do. How come? I don't know. I 00:30:14.259 --> 00:30:18.339 would think that if it's not, you know, somebody 00:30:18.339 --> 00:30:21.759 would know. Okay. The trouble is we are guessing 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:23.720 here. Everybody guess, guess, guess, guess, guess. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:27.589 And then nobody is. So nobody's saying anything. 00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:33.750 Where's the evidence? Yeah, where's the evidence? 00:30:33.869 --> 00:30:37.109 I don't know. So what evidence is there? People 00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:40.289 speculate. From what I heard, people speculate 00:30:40.289 --> 00:30:44.509 because there are serialized numbers. Yeah, the 00:30:44.509 --> 00:30:46.470 serialized numbers are there. That's why I'm 00:30:46.470 --> 00:30:48.990 not saying it's happening that way. Administrative 00:30:48.990 --> 00:30:51.740 reasons. I need to know that you are. Number 00:30:51.740 --> 00:30:53.980 100 and whatever. Yeah, to make sure that you 00:30:53.980 --> 00:30:58.700 actually get a ballot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You 00:30:58.700 --> 00:31:00.660 know, unless you want to like distribute the 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:02.960 ballot paper at the polling station and then 00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:05.819 you go in and do something. I also think that 00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:09.480 it prevents cheating. You know, you must remember 00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:12.460 that you can't just look at it as... Double votes 00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:18.600 and all that. It prevents cheating. Yeah. 2025, 00:31:18.600 --> 00:31:23.599 nicknamed as the Podcast GE. Yes. What's the 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.339 secret to why podcasts here, I'm so happy when 00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:29.039 I heard there's no podcast, connect with young 00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:32.799 voters better than TV news or rallies or even, 00:31:32.900 --> 00:31:38.059 you know, even the press. No, I think we need 00:31:38.059 --> 00:31:42.099 to, it is not that it connects better, but it 00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:46.819 is increasingly going to make inroads. into the 00:31:46.819 --> 00:31:49.420 media, the media space. Because, you know, you 00:31:49.420 --> 00:31:52.880 put up a rally, it's shown on TV and people, 00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:55.240 and, you know, Mediacorp has to show it on TV. 00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:58.380 There will be a lot more people viewing it than 00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:01.500 doing a podcast. Yeah. So, you know, things like 00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:05.400 that, you cannot fight the numbers. Right. So, 00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:08.660 when you talk about podcast, it does, the good 00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:10.880 thing about podcast, it does reach a bigger range 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:13.900 of people, I think. You know, a range. So, you 00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:16.359 know, I'm not so sure it's only the young people 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:19.380 you're talking about, no? But it's a whole mixed 00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:21.579 bunch of people. I mean, I take myself for example. 00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:24.980 If I appear on a podcast, I have people telling 00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:27.740 me, hey, I saw you on the podcast. And then I 00:32:27.740 --> 00:32:31.019 say, oh, you know, people and they are people 00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:33.359 I don't know and probably people who don't read 00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.799 me on Facebook or whatever. Yeah, but they recognize 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.740 me from there. So, it's a question of reaching 00:32:39.740 --> 00:32:45.250 many different little groups. Okay. So in that 00:32:45.250 --> 00:32:49.549 sense, the proliferation in GE 2025 is quite 00:32:49.549 --> 00:32:53.089 remarkable in the sense everybody is going to 00:32:53.089 --> 00:32:58.529 this business. We've become kind of mainstream, 00:32:58.730 --> 00:33:03.599 you know. Not bad, huh? Yeah, but I mean... It's 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:05.759 not enough just to be asking questions though. 00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:08.339 Yeah. I mean, like now you're asking me questions, 00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:11.500 right? I have to ask questions. Yeah. In my old 00:33:11.500 --> 00:33:14.339 job, I ask questions too. Yes. Yeah. But you 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:16.539 know, it's got to be sustained sometimes by, 00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:19.279 you know, your own information. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:23.680 Yeah. I am just a guy asking questions and let 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.240 my guests tell the stories. Okay. Oh my God, 00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:29.039 that's so lame. Yeah, I'll let my guest tell 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.400 the story. It's not me. I'm just the glue that 00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:32.859 bind the glitter. I'm not the glitter. Okay, 00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:35.460 okay, okay. The million dollar HDB flats, huge 00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:38.900 topic. Yes? What's the most radical but realistic 00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:43.759 idea a party, in your opinion, can propose to 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:46.000 make HDB flats affordable without completely 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:48.839 crashing the value as an asset? My God, that 00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:53.220 would be... Too big a question for me. Even the 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:55.380 different political parties. No, it's too big 00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:57.660 even for me to advance an opinion because there's 00:33:57.660 --> 00:34:00.720 so many variables involved. Yeah. I mean, you've 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.180 got land costs, construction costs, how much 00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:05.440 a role should private sector prices play in it. 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.239 So, you know, do you want to get, you know, developers 00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:12.719 involved or should it just be a HDB thing or, 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:14.679 you know, then, you know, you've got your BTO 00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.400 and I don't know how many, how many, you know, 00:34:17.539 --> 00:34:20.670 permutations of flats you've had. In the past. 00:34:20.789 --> 00:34:23.570 Right, right. So I really don't know. So what 00:34:23.570 --> 00:34:25.849 are we trying to fix here? Are we only trying 00:34:25.849 --> 00:34:29.309 to fix affordability? Is that the question? Or 00:34:29.309 --> 00:34:32.530 what else are we trying to fix here? You know, 00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:34.769 if you're trying to fix affordability, anybody 00:34:34.769 --> 00:34:36.409 can suggest any kind of solution. But it's a 00:34:36.409 --> 00:34:38.469 big issue, isn't it? I mean. Of course it is. 00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:40.869 In society, it's a big issue. Yes. Because the 00:34:40.869 --> 00:34:42.690 young people are all worried about, you know, 00:34:42.710 --> 00:34:45.389 can I get my BTO and whether or not I can afford 00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:48.449 my BTO. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, as an. 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:51.599 older person, I can always say, eh, what's wrong 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:54.079 with renting first? And then until you can afford 00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:57.219 to buy, then go and buy. So, you know, the expectations 00:34:57.219 --> 00:35:01.500 are of varying kinds. To want immediately to 00:35:01.500 --> 00:35:04.920 have a ready -made future for yourself is sometimes 00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:08.380 not possible. But the narrative that has always 00:35:08.380 --> 00:35:12.239 been sold into people's heads has always been, 00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:14.800 we will always ensure that you, you know, that 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.300 Singaporeans can afford their own homes. Yeah, 00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:23.449 when? Good point. Okay. Most times, no, most 00:35:23.449 --> 00:35:26.030 times it is sort of fixed at marriage, right? 00:35:26.210 --> 00:35:28.409 You get married, you get flat. Yeah, but if you 00:35:28.409 --> 00:35:31.170 want to buy, even if you rent and then property 00:35:31.170 --> 00:35:33.230 prices keep going up, you'll never be able to 00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:35.650 afford to buy one anyway. Well, they may come 00:35:35.650 --> 00:35:40.429 down. Oh, really? Or you may save more. You know, 00:35:40.429 --> 00:35:43.840 so the thing is, you know, I think this idea 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.579 that our path must be smoothened in some way 00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:51.920 and a little setback will make us feel, why? 00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:56.579 I mean, we have to be a lot more resilient than 00:35:56.579 --> 00:36:01.500 that. Okay. I know this is all funny daddy talking. 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:03.239 Yeah, I don't know what the young people might 00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:04.960 be saying. Those who are watching this episode, 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:08.300 what they might think about this. Whatever they 00:36:08.300 --> 00:36:09.880 might think, they go and think. But remember, 00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:12.199 it's not just the fact that you want a home. 00:36:12.590 --> 00:36:15.489 is the fact that people who are older are living 00:36:15.489 --> 00:36:18.889 in homes that are now going to hit expiry date. 00:36:19.170 --> 00:36:22.130 Okay? So your whole lease decay thing also comes 00:36:22.130 --> 00:36:25.710 in. So as I said, the HDB issue is far bigger 00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:29.690 than just, can I afford my HDB flat? You know, 00:36:29.769 --> 00:36:32.849 I mean, basically, your flat prices are coming 00:36:32.849 --> 00:36:35.969 down for the older flats. Right. Which brings 00:36:35.969 --> 00:36:39.710 in yet another variable. Is my flat really an 00:36:39.710 --> 00:36:42.940 investment? So, you know, So I think there are 00:36:42.940 --> 00:36:45.619 too many objectives that have been, you know, 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:50.400 soldered onto HB policy. And sometimes we can't 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.480 achieve all of them to everybody's satisfaction. 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:58.719 Yeah. And we might have to trim off some. The 00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:01.239 ruling party, you know, they're doing things 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:05.300 like, you know, giving you a CDC vouchers and 00:37:05.300 --> 00:37:07.840 promoting master plans. I mean, of course they 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:12.099 can do it, right? How can a small, opposition 00:37:12.099 --> 00:37:15.239 party compete with this kind of large -scale, 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:18.239 wallet -focused, grassroots? They can't. Ah. 00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:21.539 So, basically, one answer, they can't. They can't. 00:37:21.860 --> 00:37:24.719 No, I'm serious. You know, the only way they 00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:28.780 can compete is to change the mindset of Singaporeans 00:37:28.780 --> 00:37:32.000 and to tell them that all these things, yeah, 00:37:32.019 --> 00:37:34.119 you're very happy, nice and good, but it also 00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:36.920 means what, what, what, what, what, what. So, 00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:39.460 you know, so there must be this awareness in 00:37:39.460 --> 00:37:42.909 people. of what is actually happening than just 00:37:42.909 --> 00:37:45.469 say, wah, so good ah, you know, therefore. So, 00:37:45.489 --> 00:37:47.809 you know, it's hard to, it's hard to fight. I 00:37:47.809 --> 00:37:49.730 mean, I've seen the opposition parties try to 00:37:49.730 --> 00:37:52.150 fight it, but the resources are just nowhere 00:37:52.150 --> 00:37:56.050 near. Yeah, of course not. Yeah. Yeah. So, basically, 00:37:56.289 --> 00:37:59.610 basically, basically, wave the white flag lah. 00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:05.559 Okay. I mean, how to? Or carry it. Yeah, exactly. 00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:09.639 How to? So it's kind of a jam situation, you 00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:13.619 know. You note that opposition parties usually 00:38:13.619 --> 00:38:17.480 don't try to actually form the government. Is 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:20.679 Singapore designed to only ever have a one and 00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:24.239 a half party system? Oh, one half party system. 00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:30.349 That's Pui Tam Seng's idea, right? Yeah. I think 00:38:30.349 --> 00:38:34.349 I'm so I'm so gabra though I've only heard one 00:38:34.349 --> 00:38:36.750 and a half party system but in a sense I mean 00:38:36.750 --> 00:38:39.230 his analogy is quite correct you know his party 00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:43.710 is only half yeah yeah so no I think it is very 00:38:43.710 --> 00:38:48.070 hard to have a party say I want to form a government 00:38:48.070 --> 00:38:53.030 although Red Dog United has said so unless you 00:38:53.030 --> 00:38:58.010 know unless you know it's very hard because you 00:38:58.010 --> 00:39:02.059 know to you really must have that certain mass 00:39:02.059 --> 00:39:06.619 of, you know, a core group of people who are 00:39:06.619 --> 00:39:10.300 very, very strong. Yeah. And I think it's also 00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:16.360 very difficult because the fact is the PAP, the 00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:19.900 politicians and the civil servants and the, you 00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:22.039 know, stat boards and the government companies, 00:39:22.179 --> 00:39:25.869 they are all so integrated. The machinery is 00:39:25.869 --> 00:39:27.750 there. The machinery. It's not just the machinery. 00:39:27.909 --> 00:39:30.409 The machinery is interlocking one, no? Yeah, 00:39:30.449 --> 00:39:33.190 yeah. And no, so even if you do manage to pull 00:39:33.190 --> 00:39:36.250 out one part and then you try and supplant it, 00:39:36.309 --> 00:39:39.329 I'm not so sure whether it's that easy to get 00:39:39.329 --> 00:39:42.789 the machinery going. I mean, in the past, I've 00:39:42.789 --> 00:39:45.010 heard opposition members say that, oh, the civil 00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:47.690 service is supposed to, you know, you have to 00:39:47.690 --> 00:39:49.489 carry on, you have to do this, you have to do 00:39:49.489 --> 00:39:52.630 that. You know, I mean, on paper, it all looks 00:39:52.630 --> 00:39:55.659 good. Yeah. It's what they say at rallies too. 00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:57.860 Oh, don't worry, the civil service will continue 00:39:57.860 --> 00:40:00.179 to carry on. Yeah, so sometimes we have this 00:40:00.179 --> 00:40:04.900 great faith in theories, you know? And we sort 00:40:04.900 --> 00:40:09.599 of say that, you know, this is the way it works. 00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.019 But I don't know. I don't know whether this is 00:40:12.019 --> 00:40:15.880 the way it works or whether or not, you know, 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:18.440 so when they tell me arm slaying approach and 00:40:18.440 --> 00:40:23.829 all that, are you kidding? Are you sure? Again, 00:40:23.929 --> 00:40:26.409 this is the other big thing that we might want 00:40:26.409 --> 00:40:30.489 to solve. How much of a hand should the state 00:40:30.489 --> 00:40:36.309 have in society or people's businesses? Because 00:40:36.309 --> 00:40:40.769 even the wonderful thing about the Singapore 00:40:40.769 --> 00:40:44.329 system is that the PAP itself doesn't really 00:40:44.329 --> 00:40:47.650 have to exercise it because it is almost natural 00:40:47.650 --> 00:40:50.150 for the people on the other end to just accept 00:40:50.150 --> 00:40:55.300 it as it is. The Bo Pian Syndrome. Bo Pian Syndrome 00:40:55.300 --> 00:40:58.639 or yeah, maybe, I guess. Really Bo Pian or what? 00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.559 I mean, there is, I don't know. To me, as far 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:03.860 as I can see it, I might just wave the damn white 00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:07.559 flag and call it a day. Very hard, man. No, I 00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:11.940 think there must be some idealism. And I'm quite 00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:14.559 sure even in the PAP, there are idealists. For 00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:17.719 those who are not waving the white flag, given 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.860 the high risk of losing deposits. No. Why did 00:41:21.860 --> 00:41:25.679 new independent candidates like Jeremy Tan do 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:30.639 so well and surprised everybody in GE 2025? What 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:33.940 did he get right? Let's use him for an example. 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:38.800 First of all, you know, he's only I don't know 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:41.739 how old and he's already a retired person. Yeah. 00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:46.300 And I think people sort of admire young people. 00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:50.860 who have done well materially or, you know, in 00:41:50.860 --> 00:41:53.219 certain ways. He is a success at a very young 00:41:53.219 --> 00:41:57.760 age. Yeah. And who is willing to take the plunge, 00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.440 you know, come out and practically dare the system. 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:03.340 Yeah. You know, and... Ballsy lah, this fella. 00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:07.000 Ballsy lah. And, you know, not... And there's 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:10.900 a system without even a political cover with 00:42:10.900 --> 00:42:13.239 him, you know. Right. I mean, you can't... You 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:15.380 didn't hide behind political parties. The guy 00:42:15.380 --> 00:42:18.929 went there, babe. almost butt naked doing this. 00:42:19.329 --> 00:42:22.309 What was that thing we call the day when, on 00:42:22.309 --> 00:42:25.789 nomination day. My goodness, that fella. Yeah. 00:42:26.090 --> 00:42:29.369 Can even tell us, the PAP supporters, thanks 00:42:29.369 --> 00:42:31.789 for coming here to support me. My good. Wow. 00:42:32.050 --> 00:42:35.630 It was, in a sense, a bit refreshing. It is. 00:42:35.650 --> 00:42:39.710 It was. Yeah, it was. So, you know, and I think 00:42:39.710 --> 00:42:43.909 some of his, some of the way he speaks is very 00:42:43.909 --> 00:42:48.550 personable. So, you know, So as a person, people 00:42:48.550 --> 00:42:50.929 connect with him. They could relate. Okay. That's 00:42:50.929 --> 00:42:54.369 how he did well. And plus, he's proven to be 00:42:54.369 --> 00:42:57.829 successful in his own right. Well, yeah. So that's 00:42:57.829 --> 00:43:01.050 the credentials. Yeah. I don't know which school 00:43:01.050 --> 00:43:02.489 he came from. That one is what we don't know, 00:43:02.510 --> 00:43:05.510 right? Oh, okay. Do we know which school he came 00:43:05.510 --> 00:43:07.650 from? I'm sure we know, but I can't remember 00:43:07.650 --> 00:43:11.449 which. Okay. So that guy is quite refreshing. 00:43:11.570 --> 00:43:14.269 I didn't forget him. It was fun to watch him. 00:43:15.030 --> 00:43:18.409 Okay, last question. After writing this whole 00:43:18.409 --> 00:43:21.449 book, what is the most essential piece of non 00:43:21.449 --> 00:43:24.670 -political advice you would give to a genuinely 00:43:24.670 --> 00:43:28.289 good, passionate person about to start their 00:43:28.289 --> 00:43:31.269 political journey? I would just say, don't bother 00:43:31.269 --> 00:43:35.349 with the white flag first. I would say, first 00:43:35.349 --> 00:43:38.070 of all, read my book. No, when you talk about 00:43:38.070 --> 00:43:41.010 starting political journeys, you must first understand 00:43:41.010 --> 00:43:44.849 the journey you are going to undertake. But a 00:43:44.849 --> 00:43:47.289 lot of people are so confused about why the system 00:43:47.289 --> 00:43:50.030 is the way it is. They don't know the why and 00:43:50.030 --> 00:43:52.150 the wherefores and all that. And then you want 00:43:52.150 --> 00:43:54.269 to come in and immediately say, I hate this or 00:43:54.269 --> 00:43:58.190 I like this. Hello. Be a little more knowledgeable, 00:43:58.269 --> 00:44:01.889 please. Because even if you're not passionate 00:44:01.889 --> 00:44:05.030 about your political journey, you can't help 00:44:05.030 --> 00:44:08.869 but be part of it simply because you are a voter. 00:44:09.329 --> 00:44:13.739 Yep. So don't downplay that. that duty that you 00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:16.719 have to know a bit about the political system 00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:19.400 before you cast your vote. Basically do your 00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:21.159 research, do your homework, see whether you can 00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.260 tahan lah, like you said in your book lah, can 00:44:23.260 --> 00:44:24.980 tahan or not. Oh yeah, but you don't have to 00:44:24.980 --> 00:44:27.699 join the fray. I mean, you know, my point actually 00:44:27.699 --> 00:44:31.639 with the book is that, is that, okay, it's sort 00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:34.360 of, okay, gimmicky lah, to say, you know, how 00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:36.800 to be, you know, do the elections. But essentially 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.380 the point is to tell people, know something about 00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:43.500 this gigantic thing that happens every four, 00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:46.280 five years, what the political system is about. 00:44:46.420 --> 00:44:49.719 So I'm using this as an entry point into the 00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:53.139 book. If I have managed to give you some idea 00:44:53.139 --> 00:44:55.019 of this is why things are this way, oh, this 00:44:55.019 --> 00:44:58.500 is how it happened, that's good enough for me. 00:44:58.579 --> 00:45:02.500 Because right now, knowledge is at a very abysmally 00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:11.820 low point. Okay. Okay, everybody. I'm going to 00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:13.900 end this episode right now before I get into 00:45:13.900 --> 00:45:17.780 more shit. You know I don't like to talk about 00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:20.179 all these kind of things, right? But, you're 00:45:20.179 --> 00:45:22.900 my sister and you're just boot very nice. So, 00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:25.760 must talk about it. Okay, but this is quite scary. 00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:28.519 That's why I'm wearing my Prata t -shirt. You're 00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:33.599 going to flip if you get it. Okay. You're going 00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:36.179 to flip if something goes wrong. But I also have 00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:39.380 my Milo Chino. Okay. Okay, everybody. Thank you 00:45:39.380 --> 00:45:42.980 for joining us in this conversation for this 00:45:42.980 --> 00:45:45.260 week's episode. It's our Double Bill weekend. 00:45:45.579 --> 00:45:48.260 You had an episode yesterday. You got one today. 00:45:48.539 --> 00:45:51.300 And today, we really want to launch this one 00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:54.099 because my sister launched a book this afternoon. 00:45:54.579 --> 00:45:58.619 And once again, you can get... How to be a Singapore 00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:03.059 superstar. She mentioned it a couple of times. 00:46:03.099 --> 00:46:04.820 Did you know? I don't know how this episode. 00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:08.719 You can get this book in all the good bookstores. 00:46:09.179 --> 00:46:12.400 Kinokuniya, Popular, and Book Bar. You can even 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:15.400 go online to these stores and buy them. Buy a 00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:17.760 few copies, you know. And if you want to have 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:22.269 her sign a special autographed copy. Oh. When? 00:46:22.369 --> 00:46:24.710 You're doing the signing thing? I don't know. 00:46:24.809 --> 00:46:27.449 I mean, essentially, I left it to my distributor 00:46:27.449 --> 00:46:30.670 to arrange the date. The guy named Cheyenne, 00:46:30.730 --> 00:46:34.570 you mean? No, no, no. Oh, okay. A proper company 00:46:34.570 --> 00:46:38.570 doing this. A proper company that arranges for 00:46:38.570 --> 00:46:41.510 signings. And distribution of books. And distribution 00:46:41.510 --> 00:46:44.190 of books. Okay, anyway, if you're not on Bertus 00:46:44.190 --> 00:46:46.880 Facebook, you might just want to... Get on her 00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:49.139 Facebook. Don't go there and troll her. If I 00:46:49.139 --> 00:46:50.380 know who you are, I'll tell you. I'll come after 00:46:50.380 --> 00:46:53.519 you. So you just go to her Facebook. Then you 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:55.920 look out for updates where and when she will 00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:57.920 be at that book signing. And if you want to get 00:46:57.920 --> 00:46:59.480 your backsides there, please go ahead and do 00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:01.820 so. This is Chris Hansen. I hope you've enjoyed 00:47:01.820 --> 00:47:04.179 this episode of Ink Spill. Stick around. A couple 00:47:04.179 --> 00:47:07.239 more episodes to go before we say bye -bye to 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:11.900 Season 6 and start working on Season 7. Until 00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:14.840 next week, same time, same place, same channel. 00:47:15.459 --> 00:47:17.119 Stay safe. Take care, everybody. Bye bye.