WEBVTT

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Tonight, in this episode of our Ink Spill series,

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we're talking about a book that asks, what if

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the things you lost were actually the dreams

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you forgot? We're discussing the beautiful, strange

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and deeply human world of the short story collection,

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Lost Things. My first guest is the author, a

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former journalist and educator, who masterfully

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blends his background in fact with his talent

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for fantasy. His book explores the struggles

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of a burnt -out society and a powerful optimism

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that transformation is always possible. Please

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welcome the brilliant writer behind the collection,

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Keith Tan. And joining him is a visionary who

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helped bring this world to life. She is the Editor

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-in -Chief of Atelier Arcadia, an independent

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publishing collective dedicated to championing

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unique Singaporean voices. She'll give us a rare

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peek behind the scenes of publishing. Please

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welcome also the esteemed Cheryl Tay. The one

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thing, the one thread that I wanted to have amongst

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all of these characters was that your inner world

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or what you, the person that you are that's not

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seen by many or even most is very real. It matters.

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Your feelings do matter. Your anger towards something

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does matter. Your hope for something, your optimism,

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all this matters. Your cynicism, all of this

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matters to you. Before we begin the show, here

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is an important announcement. For 100 years,

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Now, let's start the show. Alright. Now, Kai,

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we are suddenly rolling. Yes. For a fact. Hello,

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everybody. Welcome back to the Chris Hansen Conversation.

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This is going to be the very first episode of

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our series, Ink Spill, where we spill the ink

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on good stuff, on the good books and good literary

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works, because why? Authors, poets, writers,

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they need to earn a living. Okay. And I'm doing

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my bit here, man. Thank you. To make sure that

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you people out there start bloody reading again.

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I'm also guilty of this thing because, I mean,

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let's be fair here, yeah. Even I find it very

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hard to find time to pick up a good book. It's

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a fact. I mean, we're so damn busy, right? Yeah,

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but then again, I mean, we still need to promote

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this. And I think the literary arts, and including

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the subject of literature in schools, are kind

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of lost. It's so funny, you know, a couple of

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seasons ago, I had Dr. Gwee Lee Swee. Yes. Gwee

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was here. And he said, no, they should abolish

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literature in school. Oh, man. It's a very practical

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way of looking at it. He made a good point. Not

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that he didn't, you know. But again, I'm like,

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don't do that, man. I mean, people already stopped

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freaking reading. I mean, stop that shit. I mean,

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I still think that literature is... as important

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today than it was before in my time. But they

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don't even talk Shakespeare anymore. That's pretty

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sad. It is. Yeah, my son, he's just been done

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with his age. And he's, I mean, in the arts,

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they call it humanities now. Make it sound more

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professional. So atas. Everything is so atas.

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And he does literature, right? And no freaking

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history. No. No. No, sorry. No freaking Shakespeare.

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What am I saying? No Shakespeare. And I'm like,

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what? So you don't know verse. You don't know

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prose. You don't know. And, but good for you

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guys because they're doing local authors. That's

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good. Oh, good. See, I knew it. We've got a shot.

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We've got a shot. We could be in. We could be

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in. We could be in. So glad I'm here. Kudos for

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that, though. But come on, Shakespeare must still

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come on, right? It's a classic. You gotta do

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one. At least one. At least try your hand at

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Hamlet. Hate it all you want, but at least respect

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where it all came from. One of the greats. To

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this day, I still remember certain verses from

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Shakespeare in my days in school. And some of

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these things you don't forget. Yeah. Well, anyway,

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I've got a bunch of writers with me. You're a

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writer too, Cheryl. I write a bunch of things.

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I've written some poetry. I've written some silk

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punk fantasy. What fantasy? Silk punk. So it's

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like Asian steampunk. Steampunk is a thing, right?

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Yes. So this is with an Asian twister. All right,

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everybody, let me make the proper introductions

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here. I've got with me in studio Keith Tan, author.

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author, oh my, I just said author. That's an

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animal, sorry. Keith Tan, author. Just for today.

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Oh my goodness, what happened to my pronunciation?

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And Cheryl Tay, his publisher and also a writer

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herself. And we're going to talk about one of

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Keith's works. It's called Lost Things. And you

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can see these are flashed on the screen. There

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you go. There. The jazz hands. That was a good

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move. Right. Let's talk about this then. Journalism

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versus fantasy, Keith. Your background is journalism

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and education. Yes. Wow. Just when I was talking

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about O -levels and stuff, what were you teaching,

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man? I am currently teaching primary school.

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Oh. So I was a permanent staff, so like MOE school

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and all that. But then I sort of took a step

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back. So I'm what we call now a flexi, which

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is like a trained relief teacher. Right. So I

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go in whenever school has need and, you know,

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I'm there for a few weeks all the way up to a

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whole year. Right. So, yeah, that's basically

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what I do in the day. What do you teach? English.

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English? Yes. Okay. So PSLE English, upper primary.

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Almost your full time in life, man. Yes, a very

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interesting time. Are you super politically correct?

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I know. I am civil service trained. I have that

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training. I know how to couch my words. I just

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think they should bloody abolish the whole bloody

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PSA. I mean, come on. At 12 years old, what the

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hell do you know? I had a very strong feeling

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the conversation was going to go this way really

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fast. I mean, I mean. With Chris Anson, you know

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you're going this way. I mean, sometimes we even

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need to help these kids put on their freaking

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underwear at 12. That's a sad day. No, no, no.

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That never happened to my son. He's going to

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see this and be like, Dad. Fantasy here. He might

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see this and be like, Dad, don't tell. That was

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between us. You're not supposed to say that.

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Anyway, this is my firm belief anyway. There's

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another topic for another day. Oh, there's a

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whole other thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but

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backgrounds in journalism and education. Let's

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talk about your journalism bit. Okay. So, it

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was basically my major. I sort of basically sort

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of grew up with the belief that words had a lot

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of power in them. Okay. So, So I had a chance

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to do a double major. It was English and journalism.

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No, no, no, not smart. I went to Australia. I

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went to Australia. So immediate. So the political

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incorrectness is coming in now. Yes. It's probably

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one of the reasons why I didn't survive that

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long as a permanent staff. I can do the job of

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a teacher in the classroom. I'm good at that.

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But step outside that. Oh, I've got words. And

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no one likes them. So, you know, I think I'm

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a pretty decent teacher. I'm not a very decent

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civil servant. So, you know, maybe that's why

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I write what I write. Yeah, we'll come to that.

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Yeah, we will come to that in a bit. But yeah,

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I just basically had this idea that, you know...

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Words have meaning. Words have power. The way

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we frame them, the way we phrase them, it's important.

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And it either can add to discourse or societal,

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the way we talk to each other about things, or

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it can take away from it. And so I guess I wanted

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to be a journalist or at least have the training

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of a journalist to help me unpack that and help

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me speak in a way that adds to our overall discourse.

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So that was basically my training as a journalist.

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And then I came back and I thought, maybe I'd

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rather follow the education side of things rather

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than join SPH. This is where he's leaving a little

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gap. So did you join SPH? Tempted to, but no,

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I didn't in the end. So my father was from SPH,

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not the journalism side, the marketing side.

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So yeah, there was that, should I, should I?

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In the end, I just went with MOE. Here I am.

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It's very funny because I took almost a different

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path. I went to school and then I became a journalist.

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And I still am. I did join the SPH group. I did

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go down the dark side. Oh, I'm so sorry for you.

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Sorry to my former colleagues, none of whom currently

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work there. Four reasons we may not discuss today.

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Why not? It was nice. We had a good run. That's

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a very good way of saying it as well. That's

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a very good way of saying it. I don't know. I'm

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not going to say it too much. It's actually more

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Bertha's territory, not mine. Okay. So journalism

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in Singapore, I would definitely assume is a

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little bit different from... what you were schooled

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in in Australia, right, Keith, and yourself as

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well? Well, I currently work for an American

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news agency. So it's a little different there

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because they believe in the First Amendment and

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things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa, constitutional

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rights. America. I beat the fifth, yeah. Okay.

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Yeah, America, man. Okay. But then again, these

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are fields, journalism, education, fields based

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on facts and reality. So what made you decide

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to write Lost Things, a collection of fantasy

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stories? I think that it... Okay, the way it

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started out was that it was a collection of stories

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that was more about nostalgia, about Singapore

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changing and all that. And that was the first

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collection that I pitched to her. And then she

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was like, okay, can we value add this? And then

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back and forth, back and forth for months. And

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she was fantastic in sort of like trying to...

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tease out that value add, you know, like, can

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we see it in a different dimension? And it eventually

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became a sort of a collection of stories where

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it's sort of like, what if I can sort of see

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your emotional state? Like, it's a bit more physical,

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a bit more present. Because, and as someone who's

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in this, who's a millennial, you know, I'm late

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30s, I have a lot of colleagues and friends,

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peers, who are sort of like, I don't hate what

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I do. but I'm really unhappy where I am. And

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it's sort of like, okay, so what are you going

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to do about it? There is like a whole thing,

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like there's so many things that are in the way

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of them trying to be the person that they want

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to be. So they're sort of like in this half here,

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half there sort of state. And so I thought, okay,

00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:10.159
what if I could find a way to sort of bring that

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out into a sort of like a world that is sort

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of similar, but not quite. Okay, so your objective

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was to have this, this is probably one of the

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few issues, loosely stating it, issues that you

00:12:29.990 --> 00:12:36.450
actually try to put a cross in your book as a

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form of acknowledgement that these things do

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exist in our society today. Yeah. Right? Okay.

00:12:42.809 --> 00:12:44.750
So a lot of people feeling unfulfilled then.

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I think I couldn't freely say that, even as a

00:12:50.950 --> 00:12:55.129
former Silver 7 and all. Even amongst my colleagues.

00:12:55.429 --> 00:12:58.490
It's a lot of like... It's opinion, what the

00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:06.090
hell? That says it all. But it's basically a

00:13:06.090 --> 00:13:09.230
lot of people who are like, I'm unhappy. But

00:13:09.230 --> 00:13:13.899
what if... It's like... all this could be done.

00:13:13.940 --> 00:13:15.740
It can be solved. You know, you can make these

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decisions. You do have the information that's

00:13:17.460 --> 00:13:19.299
available. If you do your research and you plan

00:13:19.299 --> 00:13:21.200
everything out, it's all possible. Are you one

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of those? Was. I think it took a while for me

00:13:25.220 --> 00:13:27.080
to decide that, you know, I'm going to step back

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from, you know, that permanent job and the safety

00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.100
of that iron rice bowl, you know, civil service

00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:34.840
and all that. And to go and try and do my own

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thing. That takes a lot of courage, huh? I think...

00:13:38.970 --> 00:13:40.769
To some extent, I think it does. But I think

00:13:40.769 --> 00:13:42.750
it also is at some point you got to realize that

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the cost is not, like the price of staying is

00:13:46.730 --> 00:13:49.070
more than the price of leaving. So when you made

00:13:49.070 --> 00:13:51.049
that decision, okay, when you wrote this book,

00:13:51.129 --> 00:13:54.950
and just particular to this story you just told

00:13:54.950 --> 00:14:01.549
me about, did you already decide to take on this

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particular role you have as an educator doing

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belief teaching? Just to, you know, because that

00:14:08.139 --> 00:14:10.759
whole thing you explained just now. Okay, it's

00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:14.179
really teaching. Yeah. Okay. To go that direction

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so that you could feel a little bit more fulfilled

00:14:16.179 --> 00:14:21.919
and live life at 100%. Yes. Yeah. So it's basically

00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:26.139
like... Did you quit then or before? I was already

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writing as a permanent, like while I was doing

00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:31.299
permanent stuff and all that. So, you know, I'll

00:14:31.299 --> 00:14:33.120
do the day job, come back, you know, be exhausted.

00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:36.129
bash out words on the keyboard, fall asleep at

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it, go to sleep, wake up next morning, rinse

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and repeat. And for a while, it was okay. But

00:14:42.309 --> 00:14:45.509
I think that in your 20s is quite doable. Once

00:14:45.509 --> 00:14:47.649
you hit your 30s, energy levels start dipping.

00:14:48.289 --> 00:14:50.269
You've got to take care of your health as well.

00:14:51.309 --> 00:14:53.690
And then at some point, I felt like I have to

00:14:53.690 --> 00:14:56.029
make a decision about how I want to live. Yeah,

00:14:56.029 --> 00:14:57.509
but it's the timeline that I'm more concerned

00:14:57.509 --> 00:15:01.429
about because did it occur to you to leave your

00:15:01.429 --> 00:15:04.980
perm staff position? after having written this

00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:09.379
book oh before was before yeah so this so this

00:15:09.379 --> 00:15:12.980
was something that um i had already left and

00:15:12.980 --> 00:15:17.240
i was writing things and then um and then i met

00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.259
um cheryl and then you know i pitched everything

00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:22.519
and and then yeah then that process kicked in

00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.919
of editing and okay so how would you think that

00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:29.299
it would have been a different outcome if you

00:15:29.299 --> 00:15:32.789
were still a perm staff writing this story As

00:15:32.789 --> 00:15:36.029
opposed to having already left a perm staff position,

00:15:36.210 --> 00:15:40.070
made that choice to leave and wrote the story.

00:15:41.809 --> 00:15:44.590
Would the outcome have been different? The whole

00:15:44.590 --> 00:15:48.429
flavor of the tale. Yeah, I think that, well,

00:15:48.470 --> 00:15:50.590
first of all, I may not have even written it

00:15:50.590 --> 00:15:52.850
to begin with because I think that perspective

00:15:52.850 --> 00:15:55.409
may not have even been there. Because I think

00:15:55.409 --> 00:15:57.110
at some point, sometimes you have to step away

00:15:57.110 --> 00:16:00.230
from things for a while, for like a couple of

00:16:00.230 --> 00:16:02.509
years and sort of look back and see, oh, that

00:16:02.509 --> 00:16:05.950
was me, you know? Yeah. So in some ways, it's

00:16:05.950 --> 00:16:09.009
like I inserted little bits of myself into like,

00:16:09.049 --> 00:16:11.009
even like say the first story, you know, Peniel

00:16:11.009 --> 00:16:13.549
and Daniel, it's always this sense of like, there

00:16:13.549 --> 00:16:16.470
are two very different versions of me at work.

00:16:16.710 --> 00:16:19.350
And one, one thing to, you know, say, this is

00:16:19.350 --> 00:16:21.350
life. I should be doing this. And then someone

00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:22.950
else saying, no, no, no, shut up, shut up, shut

00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:25.059
up. There is a more efficient way. You know,

00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:26.899
we got to be pragmatic. You know, this is where

00:16:26.899 --> 00:16:30.179
the dollars are. Shut up. We do this thing. Dollars.

00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:34.779
Follow the dollars. It's that bad out there?

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:38.679
It sounds like me, man. Like I've got an angel

00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:40.820
on one shoulder and a devil on the other, you

00:16:40.820 --> 00:16:44.500
know? And they're all talking to me. And very

00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:48.240
convincing. I hear voices in my head. Yeah. How

00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:49.860
about you, Cheryl? What do you think? Are you

00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:51.980
in that kind of position or are you so happy

00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:56.779
working for this Yank firm? I love the American

00:16:56.779 --> 00:16:59.940
Constitution. Hi to my colleagues on the other

00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:04.660
side. I will say that I am in a very privileged

00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:08.470
position to actually love my job. unironically

00:17:08.470 --> 00:17:12.430
um i enjoy it i love the nine to five grind and

00:17:12.430 --> 00:17:15.750
even the overtime but what i think that it hasn't

00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:18.109
given me time to do is like develop my creative

00:17:18.109 --> 00:17:22.079
self as much as i wanted to um i think that a

00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.500
lot of what comes with like running this indie

00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:27.599
micropress thing on the side is this overwhelming

00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.759
amount of admin. No one warns you about that,

00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:31.640
you know, because when you talk to other writers,

00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:33.160
they're like, yeah, go and do that, you know?

00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.440
And then I'm like, oh, so easy. Okay, okay. Just

00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.440
type setting, right? No. Shit, I got screwed

00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.339
here. There's apparently a lot of other things

00:17:43.339 --> 00:17:46.299
you need to do, like issuing invoices, doing

00:17:46.299 --> 00:17:50.279
math. Not great, you know? So a lot of my time

00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:52.690
goes into that. and also editing and fielding

00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:54.970
pitches from like new writers who come to me

00:17:54.970 --> 00:17:57.970
with ideas and then when all is said and done

00:17:57.970 --> 00:17:59.910
this is like post dinner you know like trying

00:17:59.910 --> 00:18:02.890
to wind down and then I'm like oh well shit I

00:18:02.890 --> 00:18:08.230
still got a draft to write yeah I mean admin

00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:10.410
and accounting is something that right brainers

00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:14.470
just hate to do man yeah I mean it's just to

00:18:14.470 --> 00:18:16.069
bring this back to the idea of like fantasy and

00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:19.220
things like that I think that for a lot of people,

00:18:19.339 --> 00:18:22.319
especially in Singapore, who are writing, we

00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.240
all still have day jobs. The whole idea of quitting

00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.640
your job and doing something scaled down hasn't

00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.119
quite occurred to people, especially in the 30s

00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:34.400
age range. I'm also in my 30s. And I think that

00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:39.559
it's because we are afraid of being broke. You

00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:41.480
don't have to be in your 30s to be afraid of

00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:46.450
being broke. I'm 55 and I'm still afraid of being

00:18:46.450 --> 00:18:48.950
broke, you know. I'm glad to know that problem

00:18:48.950 --> 00:18:51.109
doesn't go away. It doesn't go away. It really

00:18:51.109 --> 00:18:53.569
doesn't. As a matter of fact, I'm kind of enjoying

00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:56.509
this conversation simply because it's very human.

00:18:56.710 --> 00:19:00.809
It's really very real. And this young man, I

00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:03.390
can call him young man. I don't know if I'm that

00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:07.309
young. Oh, you really? 38. It's 38. I'm young.

00:19:07.710 --> 00:19:11.549
I'll take it. I'm young. I'll take it. Anything

00:19:11.549 --> 00:19:14.769
to go back to 40. Okay. Right. You know, and

00:19:14.769 --> 00:19:18.990
he took the plunge, right? I mean, it's not easy

00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:21.930
to do stuff like that. And congratulations. Thank

00:19:21.930 --> 00:19:25.069
you. I think it's fantastic. I mean, I can't

00:19:25.069 --> 00:19:27.509
even do stuff like that. I wish, I wish, but

00:19:27.509 --> 00:19:31.990
I can't. You know, and yeah, I hear you, man.

00:19:32.069 --> 00:19:35.730
And I think this is an issue. anywhere in the

00:19:35.730 --> 00:19:37.750
world, not just here in Singapore. But writing

00:19:37.750 --> 00:19:40.609
is a fantasy thing, you know. Sorry, I'm not

00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:44.710
a writer. My only claim to fame is my contribution

00:19:44.710 --> 00:19:48.430
to Felix Cheung's book, Letter to My Son. That's

00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:50.670
my only claim to fame. Other than that, I am

00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:54.049
not a writer. I am not my sister. But don't put

00:19:54.049 --> 00:19:56.869
her behind a microphone either. I mean, I'm certainly

00:19:56.869 --> 00:20:00.470
better than her behind a microphone. I hope she

00:20:00.470 --> 00:20:04.160
doesn't watch this episode. Yes, okay. And, you

00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:10.039
know, when you talk about, when we talk about

00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:15.759
fantasy and how you've written your book, and

00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.960
I think if you read this, or seen it actually,

00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:22.880
it's a video of a prime minister who actually

00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.359
said, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're a boring lot. We're

00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.299
boring people. I mean, I'm not saying verbatim,

00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:31.259
not quoting verbatim. We are maybe a boring lot,

00:20:31.339 --> 00:20:35.539
but we are practical. And my take is, can you

00:20:35.539 --> 00:20:37.960
please don't encourage that? I mean, we are already

00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:39.480
boring. I don't think we should get even more

00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.279
boring. But he says we are practical, but results

00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:50.579
driven. We live in this rat race, you know, and

00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:55.559
it's so driven, results driven in society. Do

00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.839
you think that our people, by and large, generally,

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:05.150
would have time? or even the capacity to imagine

00:21:05.150 --> 00:21:14.190
and fantasize? I think that it is, it can, they

00:21:14.190 --> 00:21:17.390
do have the capacity, I feel, I believe. But

00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:20.950
I think it's also highly discouraged. We have

00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:25.430
sort of streamlined, you know, your age from

00:21:25.430 --> 00:21:30.829
age five to 25 at least. you know, your entire

00:21:30.829 --> 00:21:34.009
life process, you know, from education all the

00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:38.849
way to getting a job, BTO and all that. So in

00:21:38.849 --> 00:21:41.890
a sense, because if you follow that set route,

00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:45.789
you will be moderately successful by Singapore

00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:49.289
standards, generally speaking. But whether or

00:21:49.289 --> 00:21:52.150
not you enjoy it. your days as a part of that

00:21:52.150 --> 00:21:54.089
process, you know, that's a whole other story.

00:21:54.329 --> 00:21:57.109
So I think that there is that pressure to follow

00:21:57.109 --> 00:22:03.109
this very prescribed route of things. And unfortunately,

00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:06.809
I really wish that kids, young people had more

00:22:06.809 --> 00:22:10.589
space to go and imagine and play and be creative

00:22:10.589 --> 00:22:14.410
because even though it doesn't sort of directly

00:22:14.410 --> 00:22:16.769
address the, so have you solved, what have you

00:22:16.769 --> 00:22:18.289
solved today? What have you learned today? You

00:22:18.289 --> 00:22:22.089
know, have you, you know, plus 2 % to your competency,

00:22:22.309 --> 00:22:25.930
that kind of thing. It still does add to that

00:22:25.930 --> 00:22:28.809
human experience. And if ultimately, if we are

00:22:28.809 --> 00:22:31.890
to, you know, imagine a country with another

00:22:31.890 --> 00:22:34.329
great, with the next great innovation, it is

00:22:34.329 --> 00:22:36.450
going to need to come from someone who's with

00:22:36.450 --> 00:22:39.809
a creative mind and a creative brain that may

00:22:39.809 --> 00:22:42.150
not necessarily have done well, you know, in

00:22:42.150 --> 00:22:45.089
a straight up academic setting. Yeah. So yeah,

00:22:45.170 --> 00:22:49.079
I think that we do need that. And it's... I feel

00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:51.119
like at some point we are going to pay the price.

00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.960
I agree. I agree completely. I think we're short

00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:59.119
of innovators now. I mean, we take a look at

00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:03.519
Singapore. I mean, specific to our nation. Years

00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.579
ago, the thumb drive, the first thumb drive came

00:23:07.579 --> 00:23:09.759
out in this country. Yeah. Right. If I'm not

00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:13.660
mistaken, I can stand corrected. You know, thumb

00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:18.269
drive is like track 2000. uh i can't remember

00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:21.470
names but excited from here yeah yeah and then

00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:27.170
creative technologies right what else do we have

00:23:27.170 --> 00:23:34.289
okay razer yeah secret lab yeah um but if we're

00:23:34.289 --> 00:23:40.309
looking at how it was in the past compared to

00:23:40.309 --> 00:23:44.349
how things have been so far i think we are lacking

00:23:44.349 --> 00:23:47.970
in having innovators in my opinion. And also,

00:23:48.109 --> 00:23:51.450
when I look back in my day, when we all didn't

00:23:51.450 --> 00:23:53.829
play computer games, we did, without us, you

00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:55.730
guys would not have had the luxury of having

00:23:55.730 --> 00:23:58.069
computer games, man. It started with Game & Watch,

00:23:58.329 --> 00:24:00.369
you know, before the Nintendo started. Black

00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:05.490
& White. No, not Black & White. Game Boy. Liquid

00:24:05.490 --> 00:24:08.630
Crystal. No, it was even before Game Boy. In

00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:10.569
the 70s, there was a thing called Game & Watch.

00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.819
With the games like Parachute, Octopus, Manhole.

00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:20.259
And to us, it was like, wow, this is magic already.

00:24:20.859 --> 00:24:24.680
But we were dreamers. Most of my friends, all

00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:28.180
of us, when we were younger, we were ex -genders.

00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:34.359
We were all dreamers, man. We dreamt a lot. I

00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:36.960
would say that actually that hasn't quite stopped.

00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.819
It's just sort of changed form. You think so?

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.960
Yeah. Changed form. I mean, I just came from

00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.740
Singapore Writers Festival yesterday. Yeah. And

00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:48.700
I had so many engaging conversations with like

00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:52.420
other people our age. And I think that there's

00:24:52.420 --> 00:24:55.859
a lot of capacity for like imagination and people

00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:58.660
who have great ideas and who kind of want to

00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:01.710
explore it. But also there's this like, this

00:25:01.710 --> 00:25:04.609
specter of AI where they're like, oh, this thing

00:25:04.609 --> 00:25:06.250
can write better than me. And I'm like, actually

00:25:06.250 --> 00:25:11.390
it can. But not yet, not yet. But also this other

00:25:11.390 --> 00:25:13.329
thing, which is like, as Keith said, getting

00:25:13.329 --> 00:25:15.609
so caught up in your nine to five that you're

00:25:15.609 --> 00:25:17.789
like, I don't want a five to nine after my nine

00:25:17.789 --> 00:25:20.109
to five. I don't want to do this. I want to go

00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:23.609
out and not sit at a desk and pump out these

00:25:23.609 --> 00:25:27.869
ideas. So my response to that has always been

00:25:27.869 --> 00:25:31.160
like, You need to let your dreams go somewhere.

00:25:31.420 --> 00:25:34.240
Yeah. In that they need to take form and take

00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:37.779
shape. Right. And the problem here is not a lack

00:25:37.779 --> 00:25:40.880
of dreams. The problem is a lack of time to realize

00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:43.400
them is what I think. How about a lack of opportunity?

00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:47.359
What do you think? Are there still opportunities?

00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:50.400
Not just for writers. I mean, across the board,

00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.019
you know, for those people in the creative field,

00:25:53.420 --> 00:25:58.279
musicians, artists, painters, even. That's a

00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:01.400
tough question, but also an interesting one posed

00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:03.680
to someone who had started their own indie press.

00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:12.079
So the short answer to that is not as much as

00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:15.660
I would like. I think of myself as a very greedy

00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:19.599
artist. I want more support. um the community

00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.460
itself to be more welcoming to new ideas i want

00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:24.420
people to be more interested in genre fiction

00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:28.839
i want um this to grow more rather than um have

00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:31.640
gatekeepers in place that exclude new writers

00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:36.019
um so that that was part of my idea but at the

00:26:36.019 --> 00:26:40.299
same time i'm also like i understand the world

00:26:40.299 --> 00:26:43.259
works a certain way and continues to turn you

00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:46.680
know so yeah I'm interested to hear what you

00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.500
have to say. Well, I think that overall, I think

00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:53.200
that there are still plenty of opportunities.

00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:56.779
But I think that it also requires a little bit

00:26:56.779 --> 00:27:01.460
of a shamelessness. I mean, let's say if we take

00:27:01.460 --> 00:27:05.460
traditional publishing, right? You write a book,

00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:07.740
you make a manuscript, you email it off to agents,

00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.539
and then they will get back to you. And then

00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:13.460
maybe they'll pick you up, maybe they won't.

00:27:14.589 --> 00:27:16.849
If an agent does accept your work, then they'll

00:27:16.849 --> 00:27:18.890
represent your work to publishers, so on and

00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:22.630
so forth. But that's not quite the case nowadays,

00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:26.130
especially because there's just so much more

00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:29.650
work being put out, manuscript work. And now

00:27:29.650 --> 00:27:31.390
there's AI to help you along with that whole

00:27:31.390 --> 00:27:33.890
process. So agents have to sift through more

00:27:33.890 --> 00:27:37.430
volumes. Publishers are, people are trying to

00:27:37.430 --> 00:27:39.809
look. increase profit margins in certain ways.

00:27:39.890 --> 00:27:42.750
How can we get a little bit more out of this

00:27:42.750 --> 00:27:46.049
and that? And so I think you have to be a little

00:27:46.049 --> 00:27:48.950
bit, sort of think a little outside of the box.

00:27:48.990 --> 00:27:51.630
And that's why I think that Atelier Acadia was

00:27:51.630 --> 00:27:56.670
so helpful for me to get a collection of stories

00:27:56.670 --> 00:27:59.549
that probably would not have survived or gone

00:27:59.549 --> 00:28:02.089
through the mainstream publication route. This

00:28:02.089 --> 00:28:05.309
would probably not have made it because I don't...

00:28:05.690 --> 00:28:10.109
If you look at it in terms of the pure financial

00:28:10.109 --> 00:28:12.950
numbers, will this be the next million -dollar

00:28:12.950 --> 00:28:18.529
bestseller? No, it will not. But is it something

00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:22.369
worthy of a little bit of attention, a little

00:28:22.369 --> 00:28:24.329
bit of polishing, and then we can put it up as

00:28:24.329 --> 00:28:28.869
a work? Yeah. So I think that you have to be

00:28:28.869 --> 00:28:31.349
a little bit creative and go around things a

00:28:31.349 --> 00:28:32.789
little bit. And at the end of the day, there

00:28:32.789 --> 00:28:36.480
is the information out there. sometimes you do

00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:38.680
have to sort of like step up a little bit. The

00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:43.720
future of literature, the literary arts in Singapore,

00:28:43.720 --> 00:28:45.420
we'll talk about that a little later. We'll continue

00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:47.519
on that topic later on. Let's talk about your

00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:50.640
book. Your characters are strange. Wonderfully,

00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:53.619
wonderfully strange. Thank you. From a man playing

00:28:53.619 --> 00:28:57.920
chess with a chicken to other unusual characters.

00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.859
Rather than asking where these ideas come from,

00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:05.759
tell us what essential human truth? About loneliness,

00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.339
hope or loss, does the strangest character in

00:29:09.339 --> 00:29:13.319
this collection represent for you? Oh, that is

00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:19.240
deep. I think that the one thing, the one thread

00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:21.579
that I wanted to have amongst all of these characters

00:29:21.579 --> 00:29:26.700
was that your inner world or the person that

00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:29.319
you are that's not seen by many or even most

00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:34.859
is very real. It matters. your feelings do matter.

00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:38.380
Your anger towards something does matter. Your

00:29:38.380 --> 00:29:42.180
hope for something, your optimism, all this matters.

00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:46.119
Your cynicism, all of this matters to you, both

00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:48.319
to you and to the world. And if you shut it down

00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:53.500
and just pretend that it's not there, then that

00:29:53.500 --> 00:29:57.420
inevitably can rebound on you in other ways that

00:29:57.420 --> 00:30:00.630
you didn't predict or you didn't foresee. For

00:30:00.630 --> 00:30:04.710
example, there was a character who was playing

00:30:04.710 --> 00:30:07.009
chicken and chess. He's actually dealing with

00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:10.470
quite a lot of grief and loss from a mistake

00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:12.710
that he made and that he refused to acknowledge

00:30:12.710 --> 00:30:17.049
way back. That resulted in severed ties and family

00:30:17.049 --> 00:30:20.190
loss and all that. That story was really a whole

00:30:20.190 --> 00:30:24.329
journey of him working and confronting that grief

00:30:24.329 --> 00:30:30.130
that he was feeling. Because it was very difficult

00:30:30.130 --> 00:30:33.829
to just say like, oh, he's sad. He saw a picture

00:30:33.829 --> 00:30:36.609
of that family member and then he felt the good

00:30:36.609 --> 00:30:39.849
times, the end, that kind of thing. I really

00:30:39.849 --> 00:30:42.450
wanted to create that fantasy space where he

00:30:42.450 --> 00:30:45.750
can sort of have almost like a journey to sort

00:30:45.750 --> 00:30:49.410
of confront and realize that all this is hanging

00:30:49.410 --> 00:30:54.809
on him and he needs to face it or things will

00:30:54.809 --> 00:30:57.170
just... keep getting worse so basically you're

00:30:57.170 --> 00:31:01.609
you're writing about flight syndrome running

00:31:01.609 --> 00:31:05.789
away from something ignoring it burying it instead

00:31:05.789 --> 00:31:08.789
of confronting it head -on i think yeah some

00:31:08.789 --> 00:31:10.710
of this some of these characters definitely were

00:31:10.710 --> 00:31:14.069
facing that issue of do i flight do i fight or

00:31:14.069 --> 00:31:18.630
do i fly yeah yeah yeah so i think that and so

00:31:18.630 --> 00:31:21.049
i guess i wanted an ensemble of characters who

00:31:21.049 --> 00:31:23.690
are in some ways, realizing there's stuff that

00:31:23.690 --> 00:31:25.509
they need to deal with and then going to deal

00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:27.529
with it versus some of those who have decided

00:31:27.529 --> 00:31:30.289
to just, let me just delay this and sit on it

00:31:30.289 --> 00:31:34.329
for sometimes what becomes 10, 20 years. Yeah.

00:31:34.829 --> 00:31:36.630
Yeah. But then again, there's also a lot of truth,

00:31:36.769 --> 00:31:39.950
including here in Singapore, right? I mean, a

00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:41.809
lot of people actually repress themselves. They

00:31:41.809 --> 00:31:44.289
don't talk about things. Yeah. And then they

00:31:44.289 --> 00:31:47.710
take it out on others in certain formats. It

00:31:47.710 --> 00:31:51.690
manifests in some way. And it's very funny that

00:31:51.690 --> 00:31:55.410
you mentioned this because something real just

00:31:55.410 --> 00:31:59.910
happened two days ago. It was raining two days

00:31:59.910 --> 00:32:01.910
back in the evening. Ooh, there's a siren going.

00:32:02.029 --> 00:32:06.750
Okay, right. And my wife, it was raining, and

00:32:06.750 --> 00:32:11.289
my wife went to buy some groceries. And it was

00:32:11.289 --> 00:32:14.049
a happy thing because what she went to buy, was

00:32:14.049 --> 00:32:18.569
meant to be this smorgasbord feast that she was

00:32:18.569 --> 00:32:22.049
going to really cook up for our son to celebrate

00:32:22.049 --> 00:32:24.910
the end of his O -levels and the end of his secondary

00:32:24.910 --> 00:32:26.150
school life. It was a nice thing. She was very

00:32:26.150 --> 00:32:29.650
happy. She got goodbyes, you know, tomahawks.

00:32:30.269 --> 00:32:34.329
Nice. And, well, she had to walk into this little

00:32:34.329 --> 00:32:38.869
alleyway and try to run away from the rain to

00:32:38.869 --> 00:32:43.079
get to her car. So, this old dude, on the PMA,

00:32:43.299 --> 00:32:48.059
deliberately sped up behind her and ran her over.

00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:51.339
Oh my god. Is she okay? Well, she's at home.

00:32:51.460 --> 00:32:55.140
Her back is hurting her. She fell on her back

00:32:55.140 --> 00:32:59.019
in the rain and she said, why did you run into

00:32:59.019 --> 00:33:02.259
me? He just skirted around her and scolded her

00:33:02.259 --> 00:33:04.940
for being too slow and left her lying there on

00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:08.470
her back. I mean, of course, you know, right

00:33:08.470 --> 00:33:11.430
now I'm still angry, but I am not as furious

00:33:11.430 --> 00:33:14.910
as I was because I really wish I could really

00:33:14.910 --> 00:33:17.609
run back there and find out, find this man, give

00:33:17.609 --> 00:33:22.869
it to him, yeah, then end up in jail. Well, it's

00:33:22.869 --> 00:33:25.930
on record now. Yeah, but I didn't do it. I'm

00:33:25.930 --> 00:33:28.230
sorry I said it. Wishful thinking, man. I'm sorry,

00:33:28.250 --> 00:33:30.710
me repressing it, I'm saying it. I mean, I guess

00:33:30.710 --> 00:33:33.430
any good man, any good husband would feel the

00:33:33.430 --> 00:33:36.799
same, right? If not, then you might as well not

00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:44.079
be married. But right now, days later, when I

00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.240
look at it, I think, what's wrong with this guy?

00:33:49.099 --> 00:33:52.200
And he's not the only one. I mean, there's been

00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:54.460
so many. You can see it every day on the roads.

00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:57.140
And I think there's so much repression going

00:33:57.140 --> 00:34:03.180
on out there. Same simple thing. Filter. Put

00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:05.500
on your signal indicator to filter left or right.

00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:07.539
And instead of people giving you a way to speed

00:34:07.539 --> 00:34:10.980
up, some people just come out, cut your lane.

00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:15.079
Then after that, they slow down. Why do people

00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:19.440
behave this way? And I think, wow, don't we have

00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.800
a lot of stressed out people here? Yeah, I think

00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.760
that it's also like a lot of people not only

00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:27.820
not engaging with their emotions, but not engaging

00:34:27.820 --> 00:34:30.099
their emotions with their emotions in a healthy

00:34:30.099 --> 00:34:33.920
way. Honestly, not to like tout the creative

00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:36.519
industries too much, but I also don't think that

00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:38.980
they're engaging like with their softer sides,

00:34:39.139 --> 00:34:41.880
right? Like if they read and they feel what other

00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.119
people are feeling and realize that this like

00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.659
loneliness epidemic that we have or this whole

00:34:47.659 --> 00:34:51.519
idea that the world is on fire and I am the only

00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.880
one in a burning room. No, actually everyone,

00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:56.019
unfortunately, is in the burning room. That's

00:34:56.019 --> 00:34:59.719
a good analogy, yeah. We're all on fire together,

00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:01.409
but then, you know, when we burn together, Together

00:35:01.409 --> 00:35:05.690
we feel warmer, perhaps. I don't know. All I

00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:08.389
can see in my head is a lot of barbecued people

00:35:08.389 --> 00:35:12.929
in one room. But I think, yeah. People are being

00:35:12.929 --> 00:35:15.650
barbecued in the same room. I think it's the

00:35:15.650 --> 00:35:18.309
whole idea of suffering, feeling very individual

00:35:18.309 --> 00:35:21.929
and not collective. Yeah, you're not the only

00:35:21.929 --> 00:35:25.630
one having problems, right? And it's not about

00:35:25.630 --> 00:35:28.909
whinging and whining and catastrophizing. But

00:35:28.909 --> 00:35:32.170
no, it becomes... I don't know whether it's going

00:35:32.170 --> 00:35:34.510
to be good material for you for your next book,

00:35:34.610 --> 00:35:38.449
but I think it's gone the other direction. People

00:35:38.449 --> 00:35:40.769
are so repressed, they end up being entitled.

00:35:41.980 --> 00:35:44.380
And he's looking out for numero uno. You know

00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:46.179
what I mean? You're looking out for number one.

00:35:47.019 --> 00:35:50.119
And that's how I see it. I see that happening

00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:53.500
all the time. In little nuances, for example,

00:35:53.659 --> 00:35:58.099
I open the door for a family coming through.

00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:00.659
So I open the door for them. They walk past you

00:36:00.659 --> 00:36:02.480
without even looking at you as if they're like

00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:05.239
monarchs doing this, you know, walking past you.

00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.059
And they don't even say thank you. They don't

00:36:08.059 --> 00:36:12.369
even look at you and smile. To me, I mean, it's

00:36:12.369 --> 00:36:14.750
not just about being disrespectful or being rude.

00:36:14.989 --> 00:36:19.530
It's being entitled. Or are you being bullied

00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:22.349
at work by your bosses so badly that you feel

00:36:22.349 --> 00:36:25.409
that you want to be the boss and react this way

00:36:25.409 --> 00:36:29.130
to others like you've been treated at work? You

00:36:29.130 --> 00:36:33.150
know, that's the feeling I get anyway. And yeah,

00:36:33.250 --> 00:36:35.010
I mean, I like what you've done with your book

00:36:35.010 --> 00:36:39.349
because it's kind of real. Though it's fantasy,

00:36:39.510 --> 00:36:40.869
but of course you've got to read between the

00:36:40.869 --> 00:36:42.969
lines. When I always say, I'm going to say this,

00:36:43.050 --> 00:36:45.750
I'm so tempted. Read between the lines. Yeah.

00:36:46.690 --> 00:36:50.489
Like, hey, hey, screw you, man. That you, that

00:36:50.489 --> 00:36:56.429
you. Yeah, I mean, that's what I feel, you know.

00:36:57.630 --> 00:37:01.110
Like, okay. Then I go sit down and think, am

00:37:01.110 --> 00:37:05.110
I in that spot? So when you write, do you focus

00:37:05.110 --> 00:37:08.889
on the real world message first? or focus on

00:37:08.889 --> 00:37:11.389
the fantasy element first? Which comes first?

00:37:12.210 --> 00:37:16.050
Chicken or the egg? Oh, wow. I'm sort of a chicken

00:37:16.050 --> 00:37:20.230
and egg person. So it's sort of like, okay, I

00:37:20.230 --> 00:37:24.590
guess I would start with like, what is something

00:37:24.590 --> 00:37:27.730
or some aspect or some dimension that I want

00:37:27.730 --> 00:37:30.190
to unpack? And then I sort of start creating

00:37:30.190 --> 00:37:35.469
that fantasy space around it. So why this...

00:37:36.090 --> 00:37:38.750
text this manuscript took relatively long to

00:37:38.750 --> 00:37:41.130
create because a lot of the stuff that i sort

00:37:41.130 --> 00:37:43.070
of went in with like right i'm gonna start typing

00:37:43.070 --> 00:37:46.989
and i type my like wait um i think i need to

00:37:46.989 --> 00:37:50.610
create some new rule or new element or new fantastical

00:37:50.610 --> 00:37:52.909
space so that this thing can be brought out better

00:37:52.909 --> 00:37:56.710
so the whole chicken and chest thing um there's

00:37:56.710 --> 00:37:58.670
there's that thing that's like third story i

00:37:58.670 --> 00:38:01.590
think um yeah that that entire world that one

00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:03.829
of the character traverses to go and find that

00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:08.510
his wife, that entire thing was not, I did not

00:38:08.510 --> 00:38:11.230
prepare that at all before I started the story.

00:38:11.349 --> 00:38:13.389
It was sort of like, as I typed, I went like,

00:38:13.469 --> 00:38:16.789
I need more space. So I create more space. So

00:38:16.789 --> 00:38:19.170
then like, I need even more space. So then I

00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:21.210
go create more space and on and on it goes until

00:38:21.210 --> 00:38:23.989
you have what you see in front of you. So it's

00:38:23.989 --> 00:38:27.329
really sort of like, I didn't really create the

00:38:27.329 --> 00:38:29.469
world, the fantasy world simply because I wanted

00:38:29.469 --> 00:38:32.170
that world. It's more of, this is, this fantasy

00:38:32.170 --> 00:38:34.989
world is the space I need so that I can unpack

00:38:34.989 --> 00:38:38.309
something that, you know, it's not very apparent

00:38:38.309 --> 00:38:40.489
or, you know, if we were just to be like, you

00:38:40.489 --> 00:38:44.809
know, straight laced, real. Yeah. So, so yeah,

00:38:44.829 --> 00:38:47.250
that was basically my creative process for this.

00:38:47.429 --> 00:38:50.829
Now your publisher, Cesar Dexnew, describes you

00:38:50.829 --> 00:38:53.510
as an optimist who believes in transformation.

00:38:54.750 --> 00:38:57.190
Was writing this book part of your own transformation?

00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:02.940
I think it was. I think that in a sense, it challenged

00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:06.460
me a lot. And why I appreciate Cheryl and Lynette,

00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:08.639
the other editors, so much is because they were

00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:11.099
constantly challenging me and saying, we think

00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:12.900
you can do more. We think you can make this a

00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:17.019
little stranger, a little bit more fantastical

00:39:17.019 --> 00:39:20.960
in some aspects, but also more real and more

00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.460
grounded in other aspects as well. So they were

00:39:23.460 --> 00:39:28.380
really there to push me as a writer. So yeah,

00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:32.000
I think that that was a fantastic part of the

00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:37.920
overall process of writing this. So, right. See,

00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:40.840
now I'm going to the easy questions. What was

00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:42.659
the hardest part of writing this collection?

00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:47.800
I think the hardest part was actually believing

00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:50.070
that anyone would bother. with reading any of

00:39:50.070 --> 00:39:53.230
this. Really? Yeah. How's it been, really, honestly?

00:39:53.369 --> 00:39:56.650
I mean, should I be asking this? Since publication,

00:39:56.989 --> 00:40:00.630
since being released, has the book been picked

00:40:00.630 --> 00:40:04.099
up? I would say... It's not been doing that badly.

00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:07.179
We were stocking at Kinokuniya because our print

00:40:07.179 --> 00:40:10.940
run sold out. So by the time this comes out,

00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.860
there will probably be more copies available,

00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:17.280
which is a great thing. So easy? Yeah. So yeah,

00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:21.019
that was a fear. And at some point, you know,

00:40:21.059 --> 00:40:22.900
you have to decide that, you know, push it aside.

00:40:23.099 --> 00:40:25.219
You know, I have to get it done. I have to get

00:40:25.219 --> 00:40:27.280
it done. I'm happy for you, man. Thank you. I

00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:30.679
mean, I mean. I think that's gratifying. If I

00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:33.920
were an author, which I will never be, I can't

00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.260
do stuff like that. But you're a great host.

00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:38.699
Yeah. You're a great host and people listen.

00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:43.199
Are you listening? Yeah. Right. Still there.

00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:48.559
I mean, I feel so gratified knowing that people

00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:50.940
are just flying off the shelves. Now, I understand

00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:53.579
how my sister feels when her books fly off the

00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:55.880
shelves. You know, it's like people are reading

00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:58.900
it. You know, and it's so gratifying, isn't it?

00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:01.619
I mean, I think it's marvelous. And it also shows

00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:03.679
that at least some people are still bloody reading,

00:41:03.739 --> 00:41:07.360
right? Yes. Yeah. Wow. Look at the affirmation

00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:11.699
there. That validates it. Yes. Makes it all worthwhile.

00:41:12.099 --> 00:41:14.420
I will say that there's a huge push in Singapore

00:41:14.420 --> 00:41:17.079
to read like healing fiction, like Korean literature,

00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.860
Japanese literature. So a lot of that stuff.

00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:21.920
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Educate me here.

00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.519
Healing fiction? Yeah. Okay, so it's a genre.

00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:28.400
What the fuck's healing fiction? Time for an

00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.539
education. Okay, so it's a full sub -genre of

00:41:31.539 --> 00:41:35.059
stuff about imagine the protagonist stressed

00:41:35.059 --> 00:41:38.559
from the travails of city life, journeying to

00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:40.760
the seaside where they find a cafe where there

00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:45.340
is a cat. So, not to rag in the genre, I write

00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:47.780
things in that genre occasionally to heal myself

00:41:47.780 --> 00:41:51.969
and I don't know, because I can. But also, So

00:41:51.969 --> 00:41:54.730
there's a whole genre. People are very interested

00:41:54.730 --> 00:41:57.250
in that. Really? Yes. Why? What do you think?

00:41:57.269 --> 00:41:59.190
What do you think? Interesting topic, man. What

00:41:59.190 --> 00:42:01.489
do you think? I think it's because there's a

00:42:01.489 --> 00:42:04.610
part of us that needs that and aspires towards

00:42:04.610 --> 00:42:07.250
the Japanese seaside cafe. Because we're all

00:42:07.250 --> 00:42:10.989
bloody tired. I tell you. I mean, think about

00:42:10.989 --> 00:42:12.670
it. Think about it. You're in the seaside cafe

00:42:12.670 --> 00:42:14.909
and all that. It's kind of cool. I think about

00:42:14.909 --> 00:42:17.000
it. I mean, you're pretty good at this, man.

00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:20.159
You really drew a picture in my head. And I'm

00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:22.940
like, wow, this guy looks kind of nice. You'd

00:42:22.940 --> 00:42:25.059
go there, wouldn't you? Oh, fuck yeah. Not just

00:42:25.059 --> 00:42:28.780
that. I mean, I owed it too, man. Yeah. So, a

00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:31.059
woman loses her mind, moves to Seaside, opens

00:42:31.059 --> 00:42:34.800
a bookstore. Man loses his wife, moves to Seaside,

00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.340
visits a restaurant. I mean, like, lots of stuff.

00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:41.199
I'm getting mental orgasm here. Come on, go on.

00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:43.460
It's also these people who want to go to Japan.

00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:48.980
Actually, you're not too far wrong, man. You

00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:51.179
know, I hardly go to Japan. I mean, I've been

00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:52.699
there. I mean, the last trip was just a couple

00:42:52.699 --> 00:42:57.500
of years back. And we went to Sapporo. And somewhere

00:42:57.500 --> 00:43:01.159
around nearby, the big chocolate factories. You

00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:02.659
know, they got chocolate stuff and all that,

00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:05.639
right? And there's this underground thing where

00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:07.900
you walk underground to get to the train station,

00:43:08.059 --> 00:43:11.340
blah, blah, blah. And then we saw this cafe,

00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:16.280
underground, no big shakes, right? But the old

00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:21.559
man standing behind the counter, and the coffee

00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:24.760
is not your coffee machine, artisanal coffee

00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:27.400
shit, yeah? I mean, I like it too, but then again,

00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:30.119
I still prefer my Nanyang coffee, my kopi, you

00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:34.280
know? And the smell of the coffee just permeating

00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:37.539
along that underground walkway, the thoroughfare.

00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:42.059
And then I saw this old Japanese man slowly walking,

00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:47.940
preparing coffee over stoves. Now, healing fictionists,

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:49.840
imagine if there was a magical cat there too.

00:43:53.359 --> 00:43:55.780
That doesn't work for me. You slightly ruined

00:43:55.780 --> 00:43:58.139
his narrative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did. Yeah,

00:43:58.219 --> 00:43:59.539
I mean. Okay, we'll take away the cat. We'll

00:43:59.539 --> 00:44:01.260
take away the cat. No, I see the cat in my head.

00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.519
But it didn't happen. There was no cat, Chris.

00:44:03.579 --> 00:44:07.840
There was no cat. Yes. What's that cat? You know,

00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:10.860
what's that famous cat thing? When you have deja

00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:13.320
vu and you see that cat. What's the name for

00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:16.320
that cat? Okay, never mind. Yeah, you satirize.

00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:20.480
So, there was this, you know that smell of coffee,

00:44:20.539 --> 00:44:24.440
the roasting of the coffee. And then he had old

00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.820
speakers, you know. Those old wooden cabinet

00:44:27.820 --> 00:44:30.880
speakers, big ones. And he had record players.

00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:34.920
And he was playing, not Japanese music. He was

00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:38.449
playing the whole shit. You know your... your

00:44:38.449 --> 00:44:43.449
your cafe lounge yes and so i i look at my family

00:44:43.449 --> 00:44:46.789
and i went guys can we just have coffee here

00:44:46.789 --> 00:44:49.710
for a bit yeah and i just sat there and i was

00:44:49.710 --> 00:44:55.670
in i was in la la land man i was like wow that

00:44:55.670 --> 00:44:59.309
that's why i'm saying you know i mean yeah i

00:44:59.309 --> 00:45:02.590
mean i want that yeah oh that's healing What

00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:04.090
do you call it? Healing what? Healing fiction.

00:45:05.050 --> 00:45:08.949
It's a genre unto itself. Okay, I'm a plebiscite,

00:45:08.949 --> 00:45:13.869
so sorry. I mean, I'm really not this person

00:45:13.869 --> 00:45:16.289
like you would think. Not all Hansons are, but

00:45:16.289 --> 00:45:22.769
yes. Yeah, I mean, that's so cool. That is so

00:45:22.769 --> 00:45:24.570
cool. I would love to have something like that.

00:45:24.889 --> 00:45:28.679
Yeah. But yeah, there are books that are selling

00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:31.840
in Singapore. And I think because everybody wants

00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:34.079
something like that. If you take a look at the

00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:37.059
number of cafes we've got in Singapore, why do

00:45:37.059 --> 00:45:39.860
you think? Everybody wants to have a fucking

00:45:39.860 --> 00:45:43.820
cafe. That's a lot of them. Yes, it reached a

00:45:43.820 --> 00:45:45.500
stage where I was told, and I will not mention

00:45:45.500 --> 00:45:48.940
names, a couple of years back, there was a kind

00:45:48.940 --> 00:45:53.809
of an unquiet moratorium. to not issue any more

00:45:53.809 --> 00:45:56.829
licenses out for cafes. Too many failing ones.

00:45:56.829 --> 00:45:59.989
Too many failing ones. Exactly. Everybody wants

00:45:59.989 --> 00:46:04.010
a cafe. But why? I think this idea of having

00:46:04.010 --> 00:46:07.090
a cafe, right? Then you have that coffee, jazz,

00:46:07.150 --> 00:46:10.570
lounge, jazz, music. And then you smell a coffee

00:46:10.570 --> 00:46:14.510
and roasts. And I had a person, a friend of mine,

00:46:14.530 --> 00:46:18.510
who actually lives upstairs. And she's a coffee

00:46:18.510 --> 00:46:23.659
expert. And she wouldn't want to do anything

00:46:23.659 --> 00:46:27.179
else except coffee stuff. And she absolutely

00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:30.940
loves it. There's this thing about people wanting

00:46:30.940 --> 00:46:33.500
to go and do this because I think we're all tired.

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:37.039
And they're not realizing the F &B makes you

00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:40.440
even more tired. But I think we're all tired,

00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:45.139
man. Sorry, aside from lost things. It's an interesting

00:46:45.139 --> 00:46:47.000
topic though you brought up because you really

00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:51.400
drew this image in my head. But I think you are

00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.460
absolutely correct in that people are trying

00:46:54.460 --> 00:46:57.519
to find that escape. And I think that sometimes,

00:46:57.739 --> 00:47:01.099
unfortunately, the corporate world has a way

00:47:01.099 --> 00:47:05.199
of keeping you down and saying, look, shut up.

00:47:05.219 --> 00:47:08.460
Just do what it takes. The company needs this.

00:47:08.539 --> 00:47:12.099
Make your profits and get to work. Yeah, I mean,

00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:14.119
don't you realize these days, even in a corporate

00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:18.170
setting, when... When you do open your mouth

00:47:18.170 --> 00:47:19.670
to say something and they all look at you like

00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:27.010
you're talking. And then I go. Yeah. Can I just

00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:28.869
interject? I had a really funny story about that.

00:47:28.949 --> 00:47:34.250
So I am trained in Australia. My teacher training

00:47:34.250 --> 00:47:36.750
was in Australia. And if you've ever met Australians,

00:47:37.090 --> 00:47:43.489
they are very vocal and upfront. And I came back

00:47:43.489 --> 00:47:46.650
and I joined Ministry of Education. And I remember

00:47:46.650 --> 00:47:49.610
first meeting I ever had. So this is my first

00:47:49.610 --> 00:47:52.789
real job, first meeting I ever had. One week

00:47:52.789 --> 00:47:55.409
in, it was a department meeting and the department

00:47:55.409 --> 00:47:57.070
was listing out all its objectives for the year,

00:47:57.210 --> 00:48:01.590
long list of stuff. And I just went, that's too

00:48:01.590 --> 00:48:03.050
much. There's no way we can get any of this done.

00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:08.699
I bet that went down well. I had three meetings

00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:13.460
after that about professionalism and how we should

00:48:13.460 --> 00:48:17.639
speak in turn only when called upon. That explains

00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:21.440
why at a particular forum or convention or conference

00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:23.599
or whatever you might want to call it, this particular

00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:28.559
person actually said to a bunch of teachers,

00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:32.400
when you speak to me, you stand up. Oh, yes,

00:48:32.420 --> 00:48:36.159
that one. Fortunately, I was not there. And you

00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:41.480
know, I just think, come on. How can we not be

00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:46.420
repressed? How can we not be unhappy? And I am

00:48:46.420 --> 00:48:48.840
bipartisan. I'm not going to bring politics into

00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.559
this any further than what I've just said. But

00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:54.539
I just feel that it's a fact. Anyway, even in

00:48:54.539 --> 00:48:57.239
corporate Singapore, I hear this all the time.

00:48:57.260 --> 00:48:59.579
I see this all the time. Don't speak out of turn.

00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:03.010
And then what? We're just robots. We're a bunch

00:49:03.010 --> 00:49:06.789
of sheep, you know, and I can't stand it. And

00:49:06.789 --> 00:49:10.730
that's why I feel that, yeah, I mean, now that

00:49:10.730 --> 00:49:14.610
you mentioned healing fiction is very marketable,

00:49:14.610 --> 00:49:19.349
you know, and sure, I can see why. And if that

00:49:19.349 --> 00:49:22.369
is really marketable, it only goes to show that

00:49:22.369 --> 00:49:25.050
a lot of people need bloody healing, right? Yeah.

00:49:25.269 --> 00:49:27.369
But on the other end of it, I think that the

00:49:27.369 --> 00:49:29.429
reason why people buy things like Keith's book

00:49:29.429 --> 00:49:34.090
or even mine, It's because they want to think

00:49:34.090 --> 00:49:36.269
about another world that is not theirs at all.

00:49:36.389 --> 00:49:41.429
Yeah, man. Yeah. So, you know, like, there's

00:49:41.429 --> 00:49:43.610
a Charlie the Chicken in this book. Where are

00:49:43.610 --> 00:49:44.829
you going to find a talking chicken? You know?

00:49:45.190 --> 00:49:47.510
Well, like my fantasy, maybe I should write a

00:49:47.510 --> 00:49:51.389
book and a short story and give it to you. Because

00:49:51.389 --> 00:49:54.530
my fantasy would be, I find myself on a lonely

00:49:54.530 --> 00:49:58.559
island where I'm the only inhabitant. And it's

00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:02.739
a lovely luxury house there. And the rest of

00:50:02.739 --> 00:50:06.860
the fucking world is far away from me. But who's

00:50:06.860 --> 00:50:09.559
going to clean the luxury house? You know, this

00:50:09.559 --> 00:50:14.139
is all the logistics. Hello, robots. AI can be

00:50:14.139 --> 00:50:17.119
good for something. Yeah, man. Damn it. You know,

00:50:17.139 --> 00:50:19.960
and just sometimes the idea of just being alone

00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:24.579
on a deserted island, right? And live out your

00:50:24.579 --> 00:50:28.329
years, right? It's so enticing. But why would

00:50:28.329 --> 00:50:30.210
someone like me think that way, feel that way,

00:50:30.250 --> 00:50:32.429
want to have it that way? There must be some,

00:50:32.510 --> 00:50:34.369
I mean, there must be a reason, right? Yeah.

00:50:34.869 --> 00:50:39.170
And I really think that, yeah, I don't understand

00:50:39.170 --> 00:50:42.440
the world anymore, by the way. That's great.

00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:44.199
I'm getting old, man. Moving really fast right

00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:45.579
now. Yeah, man. I mean, I hope the aliens come

00:50:45.579 --> 00:50:47.659
and just show themselves to us finally and say

00:50:47.659 --> 00:50:49.760
that, can we evolve to another, you know, higher

00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.960
level or something? Well, you know, well, if

00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:55.460
Elon Musk makes his way to Mars, he might find

00:50:55.460 --> 00:50:58.000
out. Hey, wait for the end of November, man.

00:50:58.059 --> 00:51:00.079
Three -Eyed Atlas is making his way here, man.

00:51:00.460 --> 00:51:04.019
Oh, good. Look out for it. Look out for it. 27th

00:51:04.019 --> 00:51:06.059
of November or 28th of November, we might have

00:51:06.059 --> 00:51:10.769
a rude shock. Okay, I digress. After someone

00:51:10.769 --> 00:51:14.969
finishes the last page of Lost Things, what's

00:51:14.969 --> 00:51:17.070
the one thing you hope they walk away thinking

00:51:17.070 --> 00:51:22.610
or feeling? I think if there's anything I want

00:51:22.610 --> 00:51:26.530
a reader to come away with is the idea that I

00:51:26.530 --> 00:51:29.949
could do something about this. Like, I don't

00:51:29.949 --> 00:51:32.869
care if you didn't really like the characters

00:51:32.869 --> 00:51:35.130
or nothing memorable stood out or heck, forget

00:51:35.130 --> 00:51:38.719
the book even. If at some point, this was a part

00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:42.179
in that long journey to deciding that I don't

00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:44.400
like where I am and I want to do something about

00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:47.500
it. I intend to do something about it. Then I

00:51:47.500 --> 00:51:50.579
think the book has done its job. So yeah, I'm

00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:53.659
not terribly interested in like the book per

00:51:53.659 --> 00:51:56.300
se, but more of like, how does it add to your

00:51:56.300 --> 00:51:58.980
life as a reader in that journey? Does it add

00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:02.139
any value? Whether or not the reader is spurred

00:52:02.139 --> 00:52:04.820
into taking some form of action. Yes. Wow. You

00:52:04.820 --> 00:52:07.989
know, moving themselves forward. If everybody

00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:10.070
who buys your book decides to quit their jobs,

00:52:10.090 --> 00:52:11.929
I tell you, you're going to be... Okay, I'm sorry,

00:52:12.050 --> 00:52:13.730
I'm sorry. All the figures will be pointed at

00:52:13.730 --> 00:52:19.030
Keaton. I'm sorry. Your fault, man. Don't worry.

00:52:19.269 --> 00:52:21.989
You were the one that got me going. We are currently

00:52:21.989 --> 00:52:25.250
in... As we film this, we're currently in a period

00:52:25.250 --> 00:52:28.849
of what we call job hugging. People are not quitting

00:52:28.849 --> 00:52:31.869
because the economy is so bad. So don't worry,

00:52:31.969 --> 00:52:34.309
you're safe. For now, for now, for now. Until

00:52:34.309 --> 00:52:35.809
the economy picks up and you're like, screw this.

00:52:35.909 --> 00:52:38.110
Oh, I quit my job because Keith Tan told me to.

00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:49.139
That escalated. If this becomes a manifesto,

00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:50.619
the disclaimer is that I had nothing to do with

00:52:50.619 --> 00:52:55.139
it. This was not the intention. I am sorry. Singapore

00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:57.000
is now facing unemployment because of this book

00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:01.340
called Lost Things. Then I'll run to Japan and

00:53:01.340 --> 00:53:03.219
I'll start my own cafe somewhere with a magical

00:53:03.219 --> 00:53:05.780
cat and you'll never hear of me again. No, no,

00:53:05.780 --> 00:53:08.429
no. I will be the cat. Disclaimer, disclaimer,

00:53:08.530 --> 00:53:10.130
okay? I just want to tell everybody here, okay?

00:53:10.829 --> 00:53:13.150
This is just humor, okay? Please don't fucking

00:53:13.150 --> 00:53:15.849
take us too seriously. Me! Don't take me too

00:53:15.849 --> 00:53:17.789
seriously about what I've just said, okay? Don't

00:53:17.789 --> 00:53:22.710
be stupid, okay? Don't be dingbats. Right. So,

00:53:22.769 --> 00:53:27.849
to the both of you, the origin story of Keith

00:53:27.849 --> 00:53:33.340
coming to an independent publisher, like... Let

00:53:33.340 --> 00:53:36.239
me pronounce this right now. Atelier Arcadia.

00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:38.320
Yeah. Did I say it right? Did I say it right?

00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:40.579
You can just call it Arcadia at this point, you

00:53:40.579 --> 00:53:42.699
know. No, no, it's not cool. This is rolling

00:53:42.699 --> 00:53:45.300
your tongue when you say that. Atelier, Atelier

00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:47.860
Arcadia. Yes, you got it right. You got it right.

00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:53.840
So when, why did you go to an indie publisher

00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:58.619
like Atelier Arcadia? I think it was really just

00:53:58.619 --> 00:54:02.460
like, I think I saw an ad. Gosh, this was, Two

00:54:02.460 --> 00:54:05.199
years ago? I actually do have the story straight.

00:54:05.900 --> 00:54:08.780
Okay. I can start this one. It's open to both

00:54:08.780 --> 00:54:11.900
of you. Yeah. Come on. It was when we were having

00:54:11.900 --> 00:54:14.380
some events for an anthology that I had just

00:54:14.380 --> 00:54:17.719
put out with about 15 Asian creatives called

00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:21.019
Good Girls, Bad Ends. Good Girls, Bad Ends. Yeah,

00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:23.880
feminist retellings of some Asian myths where

00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:26.739
things have gone very badly for some women, you

00:54:26.739 --> 00:54:29.619
know, in the story. So that book is also out.

00:54:29.980 --> 00:54:35.099
It's art and prose as well. So it's a mix. And

00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:39.239
Keith came to that event. I was just telling

00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:42.159
Lynette, who's the other person who works with

00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:46.099
Arcadia. And I said, well, this guy came and

00:54:46.099 --> 00:54:48.440
talked to me about a story about penguins. And

00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:50.880
this is insane. And we have to talk to this guy.

00:54:50.940 --> 00:54:52.659
Can you come over here and let's have this conversation?

00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.619
And that is my side of the story. That sounds

00:54:57.619 --> 00:54:59.539
pretty accurate. That pretty sounds pretty accurate.

00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:03.829
So I was basically seeing, saw an ad. on Instagram

00:55:03.829 --> 00:55:07.050
for, that there's a book launch and people, you

00:55:07.050 --> 00:55:08.829
know, it's time to meet authors and all that.

00:55:09.130 --> 00:55:11.929
So I was like, cool. I don't know what this will

00:55:11.929 --> 00:55:14.570
lead to. Let's just go. You know, and because

00:55:14.570 --> 00:55:16.989
at a point in time, I was sort of like, I want

00:55:16.989 --> 00:55:19.550
to write, but I'm a little bit lost. You know,

00:55:19.570 --> 00:55:21.429
like I don't know what my next writing project

00:55:21.429 --> 00:55:26.809
is. So it was sort of like, okay, show up, you

00:55:26.809 --> 00:55:28.869
know, half of life is showing up, right? Yeah.

00:55:29.150 --> 00:55:31.349
So then that's when I listened to everything.

00:55:31.389 --> 00:55:35.579
I was like, cool, what if I pitch this idea?

00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:39.780
And that's basically it. So it was really just

00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:42.639
like, I didn't really go in with an agenda per

00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:46.519
se. It was just, let's just show up and see what

00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:49.639
happens. And to be honest, yeah, we just ended

00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:52.139
up talking shop about this particular short story

00:55:52.139 --> 00:55:54.539
that he had written. And I think it was kind

00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:56.340
of a draft and he said that he would send it

00:55:56.340 --> 00:55:58.380
over. And that was the genesis of the entire

00:55:58.380 --> 00:56:01.079
project in that it started with a seed and I

00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:03.800
was very interested in that idea. And then it

00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:05.500
just progressed from there. But who is Atelier

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:09.800
Arcadia? The TLDR of it is that I started it

00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:13.440
during the COVID period when we were... Okay,

00:56:13.539 --> 00:56:15.400
there's actually a further origin story to this.

00:56:15.500 --> 00:56:18.340
I started a Discord server during the COVID period

00:56:18.340 --> 00:56:19.980
because everyone was losing their minds at home,

00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:22.139
right? All these writers all cooped up. And then

00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:24.400
it's as if a mental health was really great before

00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:30.760
that. So when COVID started, I was like, well,

00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:34.420
all these people from Asian writers across Southeast

00:56:34.420 --> 00:56:36.929
Asia and beyond, even East Asia. I kind of wanted

00:56:36.929 --> 00:56:39.690
to make a space for that. So myself and an artist

00:56:39.690 --> 00:56:42.230
friend, we ran this Discord server for a little

00:56:42.230 --> 00:56:45.349
bit. And then Lynette, the other writer, came

00:56:45.349 --> 00:56:49.610
on board. And we were like, okay. I had registered

00:56:49.610 --> 00:56:52.510
the label already. And I was thinking of putting

00:56:52.510 --> 00:56:55.849
out some work. And then we formalized this team

00:56:55.849 --> 00:56:59.719
that was able to... to put together books. I'm

00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:01.599
not going to lie, it's not very big. There's

00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:06.460
a rotating cast of like three people. So we edit

00:57:06.460 --> 00:57:08.360
each other and we edit other people as well.

00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:10.599
And it helps that our day jobs are linked to

00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:13.840
editing. It helps that we're professionally qualified

00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:19.099
to do this. We also work with artists who do

00:57:19.099 --> 00:57:22.099
the lovely covers. A lot of our recent covers

00:57:22.099 --> 00:57:24.699
have been done by Hendry, an Indonesian artist

00:57:24.699 --> 00:57:27.840
who was studying graphic design in school and

00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:30.059
then came on board to help me with this. Wow.

00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:34.059
So yeah, I mean, this is one of those like rollercoaster

00:57:34.059 --> 00:57:36.280
ride things that developed over the last four

00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:39.179
years or so. And we've put out about a dozen

00:57:39.179 --> 00:57:42.010
titles since then, which... Sounds like not a

00:57:42.010 --> 00:57:44.449
lot, but for a three -person team. Yeah, I think

00:57:44.449 --> 00:57:48.309
it's pretty brilliant. I think it's pretty brilliant,

00:57:48.429 --> 00:57:51.210
Cheryl. Thank you. I mean, when I listen to this

00:57:51.210 --> 00:57:54.590
story, I remember it started out when it was

00:57:54.590 --> 00:57:58.469
COVID and then nothing better to do, right? Instead

00:57:58.469 --> 00:58:01.590
of us freaking going insane. Do this shit, right?

00:58:01.769 --> 00:58:05.110
And then it evolved slowly from there. It's much

00:58:05.110 --> 00:58:08.389
like, you know, the good old days. When you have

00:58:08.389 --> 00:58:09.969
a, you know, Singapore didn't have it that way,

00:58:10.010 --> 00:58:13.489
but if you hear stories about, oh, the band started

00:58:13.489 --> 00:58:15.730
out in the garage. Then after that, look at what

00:58:15.730 --> 00:58:18.309
a better band is today, you know. I think it's

00:58:18.309 --> 00:58:20.929
kind of cool. It's so fun. And it's just, it's

00:58:20.929 --> 00:58:24.190
so clear that people like you, you know, starting

00:58:24.190 --> 00:58:27.090
out this way, you guys enjoy this so much. You

00:58:27.090 --> 00:58:30.409
have to. It's so fun for you, right? Yeah. What

00:58:30.409 --> 00:58:36.119
we did when COVID hit as artists. And the Star

00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:39.199
Association came together and said, let's do

00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:42.019
the very first online concert kind of thing,

00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:46.340
you know. And all of us recorded at home from

00:58:46.340 --> 00:58:50.099
magicians. And I sang and recorded off in my

00:58:50.099 --> 00:58:57.579
living room and in my last home. And all of us

00:58:57.579 --> 00:59:00.659
had our part to play, including Mo, Mo Alka.

00:59:01.050 --> 00:59:03.690
And he did his in his Colorado home, you know.

00:59:04.050 --> 00:59:09.550
And it was a funny comedy skit. And all of us

00:59:09.550 --> 00:59:14.010
contributed to that effort. And it was meaningful

00:59:14.010 --> 00:59:17.590
somehow. Then Musos got together and then they

00:59:17.590 --> 00:59:21.050
had the Zoom thing. And everyone somehow being

00:59:21.050 --> 00:59:24.829
separated by distance over that digital, you

00:59:24.829 --> 00:59:29.690
know, using a digital platform. and playing different

00:59:29.690 --> 00:59:31.630
instruments and coming together and you have

00:59:31.630 --> 00:59:36.150
a lovely piece. And it was amazingly done because

00:59:36.150 --> 00:59:38.730
people take the time to take their raw recording

00:59:38.730 --> 00:59:41.250
and then mix it down and then you have this wonderful

00:59:41.250 --> 00:59:45.769
mastered piece. And people doing it all the time.

00:59:46.190 --> 00:59:50.449
And I think it was a great time despite the fact

00:59:50.449 --> 00:59:54.670
that we... A great time creatively. I mean, revenue

00:59:54.670 --> 00:59:58.829
-wise, we were all screwed. we were really screwed

00:59:58.829 --> 01:00:01.710
right but and then by the time they opened up

01:00:01.710 --> 01:00:03.889
it was for you guys could be different but for

01:00:03.889 --> 01:00:07.449
the music business it was worse because the bars

01:00:07.449 --> 01:00:11.369
and clubs didn't really open yeah as fast as

01:00:11.369 --> 01:00:16.829
we hoped for it to be so it's I think that was

01:00:16.829 --> 01:00:19.989
creatively for creativity it was the best time

01:00:20.780 --> 01:00:23.360
I will agree with you because there are a few

01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:26.960
writers under our stable currently under Arcadia

01:00:26.960 --> 01:00:29.920
and a lot of them finished their first drafts

01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:33.000
during COVID or like just when COVID was ending.

01:00:33.059 --> 01:00:34.820
And I think it's because they were at home all

01:00:34.820 --> 01:00:37.019
the time and we couldn't go anywhere. There's

01:00:37.019 --> 01:00:39.440
no distraction other than this, right? So rather

01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:41.500
than, as you said, drive yourself nuts, you know,

01:00:41.500 --> 01:00:45.019
why not write? And I think we had the greatest

01:00:45.019 --> 01:00:48.630
amount of... time and productivity moving forward

01:00:48.630 --> 01:00:52.090
during that period to really push Arcadia beyond

01:00:52.090 --> 01:00:57.789
just two randos trying to do something. And obviously

01:00:57.789 --> 01:01:01.179
we don't have firepower the way that... publishing

01:01:01.179 --> 01:01:03.900
houses do we are very much a collective that

01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:07.539
relies on our own labor and editing each other

01:01:07.539 --> 01:01:09.440
which some people might be like oh you edit each

01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:12.280
other why don't you like get external people

01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:16.960
and I'm like I've got money I can do I think

01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:22.880
anyway so yeah I am very proud of where we came

01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:26.340
from you should be It should be. Three anthologies

01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:29.219
and quite a few collections. What the heck, right?

01:01:29.420 --> 01:01:31.780
I mean, better than sitting at home and sucking

01:01:31.780 --> 01:01:35.159
thumb. I could do that, but I don't want to.

01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:42.980
Can you give us a peek behind the curtain? Please

01:01:42.980 --> 01:01:44.659
school me here because I'm quite stupid when

01:01:44.659 --> 01:01:46.960
it comes to these things again. What happens

01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:49.400
to a book between the time an author submits

01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:51.900
it and ends up on the shelf? Oh, dissection.

01:01:53.900 --> 01:01:57.460
Possibly death. Life, painful dissection. Then

01:01:57.460 --> 01:02:02.119
a resurrection, maybe. Yeah. If fortunate. It

01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:05.400
depends on the author. We've worked with quite

01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:07.539
a few forms. So we've worked with poets. We've

01:02:07.539 --> 01:02:09.900
worked with people like Keith that have short

01:02:09.900 --> 01:02:13.139
stories. And then we've also worked with people

01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:15.659
who wrote novelists, which are scaled down versions

01:02:15.659 --> 01:02:17.960
of like the full length, like RF Kwan kind of

01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:21.119
novel. So these are the three formats that we

01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:23.119
work with that we have the ability to do because

01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:25.619
I... don't have the time or energy to do something

01:02:25.619 --> 01:02:28.500
long. I have to state this here otherwise my

01:02:28.500 --> 01:02:30.500
collaborator will be like, why are you telling

01:02:30.500 --> 01:02:33.920
people that we do novels? What a guy is it? So

01:02:33.920 --> 01:02:37.300
yes, I said it. But what happens between the

01:02:37.300 --> 01:02:39.559
manuscript and production is really that we evaluate

01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.670
it and we tell the author, you know, I see potential

01:02:42.670 --> 01:02:44.789
or, well, this is not something that we have

01:02:44.789 --> 01:02:47.429
the capacity to handle. There are some genres

01:02:47.429 --> 01:02:49.389
that we are more comfortable with because we

01:02:49.389 --> 01:02:52.349
are more experienced in doing work in that area.

01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:56.880
Confessional poetry is one of them. What poetry?

01:02:57.340 --> 01:02:59.920
Confessional poetry. Oh, this is like healing

01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:02.480
fiction. No, no, no, very different. This is

01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:05.300
like one of my... This is a priest writing his

01:03:05.300 --> 01:03:07.400
memoirs about what happens in a confessional.

01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:09.800
Well, to be honest, it's not that far from the

01:03:09.800 --> 01:03:13.219
truth for some of them, you know. One of my poet

01:03:13.219 --> 01:03:15.219
friends describes it as trauma dumping, but elegant.

01:03:15.739 --> 01:03:18.820
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I'm a little bit more

01:03:18.820 --> 01:03:21.280
well -versed in that department, so I tend to

01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:25.650
take more... point on that um and lynette is

01:03:25.650 --> 01:03:28.809
better with um i think almost like with crafting

01:03:28.809 --> 01:03:30.710
narratives and really moving stories forward

01:03:30.710 --> 01:03:34.869
um and yeah we we sort of go back and forth it

01:03:34.869 --> 01:03:37.050
depends on how good the draft is as well some

01:03:37.050 --> 01:03:39.809
people come to us with like really good drafts

01:03:39.809 --> 01:03:42.750
um and there's not that much for us to do and

01:03:42.750 --> 01:03:45.030
then sometimes it's like we think that there

01:03:45.030 --> 01:03:47.050
could be more and it doesn't really speak to

01:03:47.050 --> 01:03:49.690
like incompetence there there's never been a

01:03:50.110 --> 01:03:52.429
terrible thing that we've seen, just things that

01:03:52.429 --> 01:03:54.690
we want to take on or we are not feeling. And

01:03:54.690 --> 01:03:58.329
I think that for us, we are very objective with

01:03:58.329 --> 01:04:02.610
how much time we have having day jobs as well,

01:04:02.690 --> 01:04:05.210
but also whether we can do justice to the work.

01:04:05.269 --> 01:04:07.750
And for Keith's book, I think that when we read

01:04:07.750 --> 01:04:10.389
the drafts as they came in and had discussions

01:04:10.389 --> 01:04:12.250
with him, it was very clear to the both of us

01:04:12.250 --> 01:04:16.030
that it was a message that we enjoyed. Ooh, sounded

01:04:16.030 --> 01:04:21.699
it. What was that? Kai, you okay, Kai? I just

01:04:21.699 --> 01:04:24.300
had to release a cough. Sorry about that, people.

01:04:25.079 --> 01:04:26.800
It's cool. We're not censoring that out either.

01:04:27.179 --> 01:04:31.880
All good. Keep it in. Yeah. That, yeah, it was

01:04:31.880 --> 01:04:35.059
very clear to us that we had like something here.

01:04:35.739 --> 01:04:38.579
And that's basically the midpoint where you see

01:04:38.579 --> 01:04:41.199
like drafts come in, you're starting to edit,

01:04:41.260 --> 01:04:43.710
you're starting to give feedback. And yeah, again,

01:04:43.809 --> 01:04:45.909
it depends on how many rounds of feedback you

01:04:45.909 --> 01:04:48.769
do. And then you go to typesetting, creating

01:04:48.769 --> 01:04:51.449
the covers. And then this is close to the end

01:04:51.449 --> 01:04:54.070
game where you're like outsourcing some proofreading

01:04:54.070 --> 01:04:56.369
to like proofreaders to go through it with a

01:04:56.369 --> 01:04:58.389
fine -tooth comb, make sure there are no embarrassing

01:04:58.389 --> 01:05:02.070
errors in them. Yeah, yeah. Typos, typos. Yeah.

01:05:02.650 --> 01:05:04.530
And that can be a very long process depending

01:05:04.530 --> 01:05:08.409
on how big the project is. Okay. Yeah. And then

01:05:08.409 --> 01:05:10.530
after that, you're near the end of the road.

01:05:10.670 --> 01:05:12.230
It's time to sell it. Will you send it for...

01:05:12.269 --> 01:05:15.469
print yeah um we sell we print it locally which

01:05:15.469 --> 01:05:19.559
can be quite um expensive yeah But the good thing

01:05:19.559 --> 01:05:23.119
is that we do mini print runs. So we don't want

01:05:23.119 --> 01:05:25.679
to overextend ourselves knowing that we're an

01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:27.880
indie. So basically you'll print about maybe

01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.699
this is the standard amount of copies we'll print.

01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:32.699
See it and then put it out in the shelves. See

01:05:32.699 --> 01:05:35.619
how it feels like going out. Yes. And then whether

01:05:35.619 --> 01:05:40.079
or not we should print more. Yes. So I like to...

01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:44.179
I've been told that I'm not a very good businesswoman.

01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:48.909
Okay. But in that I'm not very... ambitious with

01:05:48.909 --> 01:05:51.690
how many print copies we do. Some people tend

01:05:51.690 --> 01:05:54.090
to print a little bit more, but I'm like, ah,

01:05:54.269 --> 01:05:57.730
let's start small. There's nothing wrong with

01:05:57.730 --> 01:06:01.610
that. I think there's prudence there. But yeah,

01:06:01.690 --> 01:06:03.789
I like to do bite -sized print runs. If we sell

01:06:03.789 --> 01:06:05.630
out, then obviously we are going to print more.

01:06:05.630 --> 01:06:07.860
I would have done the same. Ah, that's good to

01:06:07.860 --> 01:06:11.619
know. And see how popular it gets. And if there's

01:06:11.619 --> 01:06:14.559
demand, if there's demand, then print more. Yeah.

01:06:15.079 --> 01:06:17.900
It's about the size of it. I mean, who, I mean,

01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:21.019
only an idiot would go like, and thinking that,

01:06:21.059 --> 01:06:22.699
you know, your ego is telling you it's going

01:06:22.699 --> 01:06:25.519
to sell. Yeah, I am. Don't worry about it. I

01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:27.039
think you're doing the right thing. I try not

01:06:27.039 --> 01:06:29.099
to let my ego get in the way. Yeah, no, no. I

01:06:29.099 --> 01:06:30.900
really think you're doing the right thing. So

01:06:30.900 --> 01:06:33.239
don't worry about it, man. I mean, don't bother

01:06:33.239 --> 01:06:34.860
about what the rest are doing. Just do what you

01:06:34.860 --> 01:06:37.199
think is right. What's the biggest myth about

01:06:37.199 --> 01:06:39.239
writing or publishing that you'd love to bust

01:06:39.239 --> 01:06:45.019
for our listeners and viewers? I think that if

01:06:45.019 --> 01:06:48.880
you're coming into this with like, oh, I'm going

01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:50.559
to sit down and I'm going to blitz through a

01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:54.840
thousand words in a sitting. No, there is a lot

01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:59.659
of, today I hate my life. I'm going to do 200

01:06:59.659 --> 01:07:02.420
words and the next day I'm going to delete 180

01:07:02.420 --> 01:07:05.820
of them. And then, you know, maybe, and that

01:07:05.820 --> 01:07:08.659
moment where you can actually do a thousand words

01:07:08.659 --> 01:07:10.380
might actually be something that happens once

01:07:10.380 --> 01:07:13.340
every three months, maybe, you know, so it's

01:07:13.340 --> 01:07:16.170
not a very, it's actually a lot of grind. There's

01:07:16.170 --> 01:07:18.530
a lot of precision, a lot of perfection. I think

01:07:18.530 --> 01:07:20.269
if you want to do it as a hobby, by all means,

01:07:20.309 --> 01:07:24.070
go ahead. Then there isn't that worry of having

01:07:24.070 --> 01:07:26.670
to make it so as perfect or as polished as you

01:07:26.670 --> 01:07:28.929
would like. But the truth is that if you want

01:07:28.929 --> 01:07:32.690
to get published, there is a lot of fine -tuning

01:07:32.690 --> 01:07:37.369
and tweaking. I've spent hours deciding, do I

01:07:37.369 --> 01:07:41.349
want to split this into two sentences or make

01:07:41.349 --> 01:07:44.400
it one long sentence? That kind of... perfection.

01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:46.099
And I'm reading it out to myself over and over

01:07:46.099 --> 01:07:47.420
again, passing it to my wife. What does she think?

01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:49.539
What do you think? And she's like, go away. I've

01:07:49.539 --> 01:07:51.760
done this 10 times already. Leave me alone. That

01:07:51.760 --> 01:07:54.599
kind of thing. But that kind of obsession, I

01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:58.139
think, is needed in order to really get a work

01:07:58.139 --> 01:08:00.960
out there. But I think it's that obsession or

01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.280
that desire for perfection that really drives

01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:07.260
you to really improve yourself and push out that

01:08:07.260 --> 01:08:10.539
best possible work, which is... kind of like

01:08:10.539 --> 01:08:12.059
a reflection of the best possible version of

01:08:12.059 --> 01:08:13.159
yourself. See, there's a thing about work ethic

01:08:13.159 --> 01:08:18.000
of an author or a writer, which is the same thing

01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:20.420
I always talk about with anyone in the creative

01:08:20.420 --> 01:08:22.720
field for that matter. The amount of work and

01:08:22.720 --> 01:08:25.340
angst you go through yourself just to get your

01:08:25.340 --> 01:08:28.520
piece right. It's the same thing as when you

01:08:28.520 --> 01:08:31.779
have musicians on stage for dinner and performing

01:08:31.779 --> 01:08:34.520
and everyone doesn't give a shit and they just

01:08:34.520 --> 01:08:36.840
have their faces in their plates. Right? And

01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:39.880
I, you know, I don't care, you know. As an MC,

01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:42.539
I tell audiences, these people go through hours

01:08:42.539 --> 01:08:45.380
and hours and hours of rehearsal. The least you

01:08:45.380 --> 01:08:47.939
could do is appreciate them. And the same thing

01:08:47.939 --> 01:08:50.760
for writers and authors. You guys go through

01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:54.640
so much just to put this out there. Appreciate

01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:58.800
that. AI doesn't like that, but we take time

01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:03.579
to get it done. And that is the human trying

01:09:03.579 --> 01:09:06.939
to be perfect. And I think there's more to appreciate

01:09:06.939 --> 01:09:09.949
there than to just... believing in what ai can

01:09:09.949 --> 01:09:13.890
churn out yeah isn't it yeah it's us struggling

01:09:13.890 --> 01:09:16.550
to do to be better and i think that's something

01:09:16.550 --> 01:09:19.449
to be applauded and to be celebrated yeah yeah

01:09:19.449 --> 01:09:22.470
so it's it's it's yeah i mean i think that's

01:09:22.470 --> 01:09:25.229
why i have wingspill thank you thank you yeah

01:09:25.229 --> 01:09:28.170
really i mean i it's so much work you guys put

01:09:28.170 --> 01:09:31.670
in you know uh the book is about reclaiming forgotten

01:09:31.670 --> 01:09:34.909
dreams what advice would you give to someone

01:09:34.909 --> 01:09:39.109
in my audience who has a creative dream but is

01:09:39.109 --> 01:09:44.729
afraid to pursue it? Wow, the very cliche answer

01:09:44.729 --> 01:09:46.890
that a lot of writers give is follow your dreams,

01:09:46.970 --> 01:09:51.289
right? I'm not going to do that. Thank you. I'm

01:09:51.289 --> 01:09:55.630
just going to say very objectively, if you have

01:09:55.630 --> 01:09:59.569
a dream, you need to take intentional... prudent

01:09:59.569 --> 01:10:06.270
steps to achieving it. I interviewed in my day

01:10:06.270 --> 01:10:09.569
job a writer quite recently, and one of the steps

01:10:09.569 --> 01:10:13.409
that I will share here is it's important to be

01:10:13.409 --> 01:10:15.529
persistent, but it's also important to be kind.

01:10:16.080 --> 01:10:18.819
And I think that I've carried that with me ever

01:10:18.819 --> 01:10:21.340
since I thought about that conversation. And

01:10:21.340 --> 01:10:23.500
I keep bringing it up in conversations with people.

01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:25.899
And I say, we don't talk about that enough that

01:10:25.899 --> 01:10:27.819
a lot of the writing community or a lot of like

01:10:27.819 --> 01:10:29.880
the idea of chasing your dreams, it doesn't happen

01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:33.060
in isolation. It happens with a community that

01:10:33.060 --> 01:10:37.079
is willing to pay it forward and take the gifts

01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:39.659
that you are given and have a transformative

01:10:39.659 --> 01:10:43.439
experience with it. And know that like, this

01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:46.119
is a collective experience. If I do well, It

01:10:46.119 --> 01:10:49.460
doesn't mean anything to anyone but myself. But

01:10:49.460 --> 01:10:52.899
if I'm able to amplify that and magnify it and

01:10:52.899 --> 01:10:56.600
bring more people in and sort of like, this is

01:10:56.600 --> 01:10:58.479
my community. These are my people. These are

01:10:58.479 --> 01:11:01.039
all people who are striving towards something

01:11:01.039 --> 01:11:04.159
that they want to achieve. That is what's important

01:11:04.159 --> 01:11:09.399
to me. You talk about community. The writers

01:11:09.399 --> 01:11:14.760
community in Singapore, are we united? Wow. You're

01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:17.840
putting me in the hot seat here. Well, I can

01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:20.279
tell you that the musician community in Singapore

01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:23.560
is not really that united. I think that... It's

01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:27.619
the truth. It is true to some extent. I will

01:11:27.619 --> 01:11:30.699
be very charitable with my opinion here. I think

01:11:30.699 --> 01:11:31.520
that some people might disagree with me. Just

01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:33.500
be honest. Don't be charitable. Yeah, but this

01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:35.380
is an honest opinion as well. I think that there

01:11:35.380 --> 01:11:37.300
are sub -communities within the writer's community

01:11:37.300 --> 01:11:40.439
where people find their people. And I have been

01:11:40.439 --> 01:11:43.140
lucky enough to find those people that we are

01:11:43.140 --> 01:11:45.500
on the same wavelength. We understand the value

01:11:45.500 --> 01:11:47.479
of the work that each other does. We have respect

01:11:47.479 --> 01:11:51.760
for the work. As for whether or not the community

01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:53.979
is united, I think that we're united in a common

01:11:53.979 --> 01:11:56.199
purpose in that we all want to write. Now, what

01:11:56.199 --> 01:11:58.279
do we want to write? We may have different opinions

01:11:58.279 --> 01:12:01.159
and everyone is entitled to those. But I encourage

01:12:01.159 --> 01:12:04.359
people to just, like I said, just be kind. And

01:12:04.359 --> 01:12:07.779
that's my tip for people who want to achieve

01:12:07.779 --> 01:12:10.260
this. bigger thing that they're aspiring towards.

01:12:10.560 --> 01:12:13.159
Okay. So, yeah. I'm going to take the Bunsen

01:12:13.159 --> 01:12:15.800
burner from beneath your seat, okay? I'll take

01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:18.520
it away now. Setting, setting. Well done. Well

01:12:18.520 --> 01:12:23.800
done on the pressure. This, this, this, the future

01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:26.619
in the next 10, what do you foresee? 10, 15 years

01:12:26.619 --> 01:12:30.039
from today when we have the teens of today going

01:12:30.039 --> 01:12:32.140
through the education they're going through today,

01:12:32.359 --> 01:12:36.460
that you're an educator. Do you think that the

01:12:36.460 --> 01:12:41.199
future will see writers still emerging in our

01:12:41.199 --> 01:12:45.279
community when our young become adults and working

01:12:45.279 --> 01:12:51.720
adults? I think they would, simply because based

01:12:51.720 --> 01:12:54.159
on my experience working with all the kids that

01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:57.100
I do, a lot of them are, in a sense, pushing

01:12:57.100 --> 01:13:00.140
back against a lot of the traditional norms and

01:13:00.140 --> 01:13:04.119
conventions. secretly in the back of their head,

01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:05.779
they're not thinking about becoming doctors and

01:13:05.779 --> 01:13:08.600
lawyers. That sort of thing that us millennials

01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:10.899
went through, like doctor, lawyer, engineer,

01:13:11.020 --> 01:13:15.000
that kind of thing, career path, it's not really

01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:17.479
something that they are so obsessed over. And

01:13:17.479 --> 01:13:20.800
I think that social media, one of the few good

01:13:20.800 --> 01:13:23.079
things about social media is that it's sort of

01:13:23.079 --> 01:13:25.380
opened their eyes to a lot of possibilities of

01:13:25.380 --> 01:13:29.800
the life that they could live. So I am... crossing

01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:32.239
my fingers and hoping that this in this one aspect

01:13:32.239 --> 01:13:35.699
you know um that they will not feel as inhibited

01:13:35.699 --> 01:13:38.760
by tradition or convention to you know i've got

01:13:38.760 --> 01:13:41.119
to go and you know get a be a white collar worker

01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:44.020
and all that before i have and only establish

01:13:44.020 --> 01:13:46.220
myself financially then i have the right in my

01:13:46.220 --> 01:13:49.560
30s to start picking up an instrument you know

01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:51.840
that kind of thing i i feel like there's less

01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:55.420
um taboo or there's less hint about it nowadays

01:13:55.980 --> 01:13:58.479
Yeah. It's a slow journey. Slow journey. Yeah.

01:13:58.680 --> 01:14:00.439
If I could jump in on that point, I think that

01:14:00.439 --> 01:14:02.699
when there's a lot of talk about this AI revolution

01:14:02.699 --> 01:14:06.420
and that it'll kill all the artists and the musicians.

01:14:07.210 --> 01:14:10.350
I think that the world in general, human history

01:14:10.350 --> 01:14:12.890
has been through so many revolutions where people

01:14:12.890 --> 01:14:15.970
were like, oh, the artists are nothing, you know,

01:14:16.010 --> 01:14:19.470
they're just serfs. We will make them grist for

01:14:19.470 --> 01:14:22.750
the mill. And I think that that narrative has

01:14:22.750 --> 01:14:26.789
been parroted over history, right? And yet...

01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:29.739
Here we are sitting in a podcast studio talking

01:14:29.739 --> 01:14:33.359
about a book. And I think that that just speaks

01:14:33.359 --> 01:14:36.180
to the survival of like the human creative spirit

01:14:36.180 --> 01:14:39.119
and that if people want to create something,

01:14:39.220 --> 01:14:42.979
the words will get out there in one way, shape

01:14:42.979 --> 01:14:45.319
or form, whatever form they take. It might not

01:14:45.319 --> 01:14:47.119
be a physical book down the road. It might be

01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:49.340
more audio books. There might be more digital

01:14:49.340 --> 01:14:52.640
copies. But, you know, writing. It's going to

01:14:52.640 --> 01:14:54.859
survive. I'm an optimist in that sense. Great,

01:14:54.859 --> 01:14:56.399
great, great. Glad to hear that. I'll tell you

01:14:56.399 --> 01:14:59.340
what you do, okay? Now, at this time of this

01:14:59.340 --> 01:15:03.260
episode being shot, before your episode is released,

01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:07.539
please watch the one before yours. Oh, no. Yeah,

01:15:07.640 --> 01:15:10.939
watch that one. It's called, with the CEO of

01:15:10.939 --> 01:15:18.479
Career... Oh, gosh. Kai? Career Strategy, right?

01:15:18.699 --> 01:15:24.220
Yes. No. Jesus. Oh my, I'm so sorry, Adrian.

01:15:24.380 --> 01:15:28.800
I've got a brain fart moment right now. Captain

01:15:28.800 --> 01:15:31.100
Careers. Captain Careers, yeah. Captain Careers.

01:15:31.319 --> 01:15:35.539
He's CEO of Career Agility International. I'm

01:15:35.539 --> 01:15:37.819
so sorry, Adrian. Don't kill me for this. It

01:15:37.819 --> 01:15:40.079
really was a brain fart moment. I'm so sorry,

01:15:40.140 --> 01:15:43.199
Adrian. He's a great guy. I love him to bits.

01:15:43.779 --> 01:15:47.760
And he's a career strategist, right? And a pretty

01:15:47.760 --> 01:15:51.720
well -known guy. And we were talking about AI

01:15:51.720 --> 01:15:54.500
and how it's going to affect jobs in the future,

01:15:54.619 --> 01:15:57.720
right? And I can tell you one thing, man. That

01:15:57.720 --> 01:16:00.760
thing about growing up to be a doctor, a lawyer,

01:16:00.899 --> 01:16:03.560
forget it, they're going to be very poor. Because

01:16:03.560 --> 01:16:06.199
the tradies will be the ones that will be making

01:16:06.199 --> 01:16:09.979
more money. Your plumber, especially. Your electrician.

01:16:10.279 --> 01:16:13.619
The people in trades. That's going to be the

01:16:13.619 --> 01:16:17.920
future. Because now if agentic, not just generative

01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:22.500
AI, agentic AI, forget it. And I'm not trying

01:16:22.500 --> 01:16:25.060
to be the purveyor of doom and gloom here, but

01:16:25.060 --> 01:16:29.760
the fact is, It is what it is. And somehow every

01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:33.000
profession and every one of us have got to find

01:16:33.000 --> 01:16:35.640
a way to pivot. I hate to use that word. Pivot.

01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:39.359
Pivot, right? Pivot! So watching Ross doing that

01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:43.960
in French. Pivot! Yeah. Siding behind the match.

01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:47.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was funny, huh? Yeah.

01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:52.810
I love French. Anyway. Yeah, so I hope so. Please

01:16:52.810 --> 01:16:56.170
do remain, continue remaining optimistic. It

01:16:56.170 --> 01:16:58.470
might not serve me well in later life when I'm

01:16:58.470 --> 01:17:01.649
like broke and begging for stuff online or selling

01:17:01.649 --> 01:17:03.529
my, you know, stuffed toys or something like

01:17:03.529 --> 01:17:05.689
that, you know. Future Cheryl, if you're seeing

01:17:05.689 --> 01:17:08.750
this and cursing yourself, sorry about that.

01:17:10.729 --> 01:17:15.449
Okay, last question. Last question, guys. What's

01:17:15.449 --> 01:17:19.850
next for you both? Are you working on a book?

01:17:20.159 --> 01:17:25.800
Yes, I am. I think for me, it's just a case of

01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:29.720
you can't sit still for too long. And I think

01:17:29.720 --> 01:17:31.859
that another thing about being a writer is that

01:17:31.859 --> 01:17:34.119
if you feel like I have to get up and write,

01:17:34.239 --> 01:17:36.659
it's kind of being a musician as well. Can I

01:17:36.659 --> 01:17:38.500
keep the instrument out of your hands? If I can't.

01:17:39.110 --> 01:17:42.810
then you are a musician. So that's, I think,

01:17:42.829 --> 01:17:44.930
just the way I am. That's just what I do. Sales

01:17:44.930 --> 01:17:46.670
or no sales, I don't care about the figures.

01:17:46.850 --> 01:17:48.310
I mean, they're nice. Don't get me wrong. They're

01:17:48.310 --> 01:17:50.449
nice. I like money. I like money. I'm going to

01:17:50.449 --> 01:17:52.729
say that again. I like money. I like sales. Buy

01:17:52.729 --> 01:17:55.829
the book. Go to Kino. Look at the singlet section.

01:17:56.069 --> 01:17:59.390
We are all there. Buy it. I love that. But at

01:17:59.390 --> 01:18:01.859
the end of the day, there has to be some... a

01:18:01.859 --> 01:18:03.739
love for the craft that is more than just the

01:18:03.739 --> 01:18:07.159
money. If you will turn up to a gig with three

01:18:07.159 --> 01:18:09.380
people and you still play and sing your heart

01:18:09.380 --> 01:18:12.340
out for it, then you're the musician. You're

01:18:12.340 --> 01:18:15.520
an artist. So for me, I have to constantly be

01:18:15.520 --> 01:18:19.520
working on the next project. So for me, the next

01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:22.180
one is really about, it's kind of an extension

01:18:22.180 --> 01:18:24.680
of this. It was sort of an idea that I had, but

01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:27.359
I didn't quite have the ability to finish it.

01:18:27.420 --> 01:18:29.699
So I sort of put it aside. Then I finished this.

01:18:30.140 --> 01:18:34.260
Then I sort of jumped back to that. And it is

01:18:34.260 --> 01:18:37.079
a bit down the healing fiction side of things

01:18:37.079 --> 01:18:40.260
about a burnt out person, you know, traveling

01:18:40.260 --> 01:18:42.260
to the countryside of Japan because she gets

01:18:42.260 --> 01:18:44.819
a message from the soft toy that she lost years

01:18:44.819 --> 01:18:48.960
ago. A burnt out person in Japan. Japan again.

01:18:49.619 --> 01:18:52.079
So burnt out people must go to Japan. That's

01:18:52.079 --> 01:18:57.500
where it's at. On the countryside. I would go

01:18:57.500 --> 01:19:00.960
to Norway. Oh, Norway is brilliant. Oh man, dude,

01:19:01.020 --> 01:19:02.739
my most favourite place in the whole damn world.

01:19:03.239 --> 01:19:07.569
I love Norway, man. But yeah, it's a Singaporean

01:19:07.569 --> 01:19:10.229
person that goes to the countryside, right? So

01:19:10.229 --> 01:19:13.069
in that sense, it's like, yep, okay, it fits

01:19:13.069 --> 01:19:16.510
Singaporean. Singaporean cannot survive in Norway

01:19:16.510 --> 01:19:18.850
too long. They say too much bread and all that.

01:19:19.189 --> 01:19:22.170
I just can't eat bread every day. I need to pay

01:19:22.170 --> 01:19:25.850
not so bad. Got rice, got noodles, we'll be okay.

01:19:26.250 --> 01:19:28.630
We'll be okay. Rice and noodles. You cannot write

01:19:28.630 --> 01:19:31.449
a story about Singaporean finding joy in Norway.

01:19:32.510 --> 01:19:36.189
Ken, this one. Yes, this one, this one. You can

01:19:36.189 --> 01:19:38.470
write it. You can write it, you write it. I would

01:19:38.470 --> 01:19:40.630
love to just, no, I would really love to just

01:19:40.630 --> 01:19:45.270
chill out in Norway. Really. Because there was

01:19:45.270 --> 01:19:48.909
a cafe. That's where it's at. It's all at the

01:19:48.909 --> 01:19:51.270
cafe. Turns out it's your genre after all. We

01:19:51.270 --> 01:19:53.689
painted a picture for you. I mean, we were living

01:19:53.689 --> 01:19:55.609
in this lovely apartment at the end of a cul

01:19:55.609 --> 01:19:58.430
-de -sac road in the CBD district. A very quiet

01:19:58.430 --> 01:20:00.989
part of the CBD. Nice. And when you look below,

01:20:01.130 --> 01:20:04.090
it was Christmas time and it was snowing. And

01:20:04.090 --> 01:20:07.090
you had this bakery downstairs. And they had

01:20:07.090 --> 01:20:10.510
seats downstairs and they got fur rugs on the

01:20:10.510 --> 01:20:14.170
seats. Right? And the lights are yellow, glowing

01:20:14.170 --> 01:20:17.750
yellow. And it's Christmas. Yeah. And it was

01:20:17.750 --> 01:20:21.470
just fucking magical. I tell you, it was. It's

01:20:21.470 --> 01:20:24.409
just life, right? Oh, man. I'll never forget

01:20:24.409 --> 01:20:26.369
that. I'll never forget. And every morning you

01:20:26.369 --> 01:20:29.539
wake up, you smell the smell of... baked croissants

01:20:29.539 --> 01:20:32.180
and bread. It sounds like this is what's next

01:20:32.180 --> 01:20:34.939
for you. I think he should write this book. I

01:20:34.939 --> 01:20:37.079
think he should write this book. What about me

01:20:37.079 --> 01:20:39.819
smelling the bakery in the morning? I mean, this

01:20:39.819 --> 01:20:41.920
is going to be a real short story. Really, really

01:20:41.920 --> 01:20:44.579
short story. One paragraph. Full stop. Done.

01:20:46.039 --> 01:20:48.659
And Sharab, how about you? What's coming up for

01:20:48.659 --> 01:20:52.289
your publishing company? Well, um... Yeah, the

01:20:52.289 --> 01:20:55.869
collective has a few books in the works. We have

01:20:55.869 --> 01:20:58.810
Bad Boys, Good Ends, which is the sequel to that

01:20:58.810 --> 01:21:00.670
anthology that we talked about just now. Bad

01:21:00.670 --> 01:21:03.189
Girls, Good Ends. No, Good Girls, Bad Ends. Bad

01:21:03.189 --> 01:21:08.890
Boys, Good Ends. Well, clever. That is, we are

01:21:08.890 --> 01:21:10.869
going to announce it down the road and more soon,

01:21:11.289 --> 01:21:14.869
we have like a K -pop thing coming out. Oh, come

01:21:14.869 --> 01:21:17.949
on. It's called Killing Part. It's a novella.

01:21:18.210 --> 01:21:21.479
Okay. And I will say, don't knock it. It's actually

01:21:21.479 --> 01:21:24.060
really, really good. I'm not knocking it. But

01:21:24.060 --> 01:21:28.079
just hear K -pop and I go, oh, right. Okay. Yeah,

01:21:28.199 --> 01:21:31.479
it's not just about K -pop. It's actually what

01:21:31.479 --> 01:21:33.000
I would call a story about dreams. How about

01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:34.680
graphic novels? Do you guys do anything like

01:21:34.680 --> 01:21:36.979
that? It's not really my market. Like I said,

01:21:37.119 --> 01:21:39.939
I do what I think I have the capacity to edit.

01:21:40.380 --> 01:21:44.619
On my personal front, I am writing more poetry.

01:21:44.800 --> 01:21:47.859
I have books out there that my friends would

01:21:47.859 --> 01:21:51.670
rather I talk about. They're like, talk about

01:21:51.670 --> 01:21:55.609
your books. And I'm like, sure. Okay. Slide it

01:21:55.609 --> 01:21:58.109
in. Yeah. One of them is called American Dream.

01:21:58.189 --> 01:22:01.329
It's about my time working with the Yanks. With

01:22:01.329 --> 01:22:04.649
the Yanks, yeah. And also my experiences with

01:22:04.649 --> 01:22:06.890
the people in America as well. And the second

01:22:06.890 --> 01:22:10.310
is Bites, which is about life and love. Yeah.

01:22:10.390 --> 01:22:12.850
So I'm working on a third thing called Seeing

01:22:12.850 --> 01:22:17.590
Ghosts. That sounds fun. It is. No, no. It's

01:22:17.590 --> 01:22:20.619
a fiction or what? Poetry. or poetry about seeing

01:22:20.619 --> 01:22:23.359
ghosts uh it's titled seeing ghosts but when

01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:28.529
it's about ghosts Got to slide the teaser in

01:22:28.529 --> 01:22:29.949
there. Yeah, yeah. She's not going to spill the

01:22:29.949 --> 01:22:31.970
ink on this one yet. Yeah, okay. You're writing

01:22:31.970 --> 01:22:33.729
that one now? Yes, I'm writing that one now.

01:22:33.789 --> 01:22:36.250
But American Dream, is it published? Yes, it's

01:22:36.250 --> 01:22:39.069
out there in Kinokuniya as well. I think that

01:22:39.069 --> 01:22:45.109
it didn't do too bad, yes. And I'm also working

01:22:45.109 --> 01:22:47.430
on a longer novel, I think, that won't go through

01:22:47.430 --> 01:22:50.949
Arcadia. It's going to be, it's too long for

01:22:50.949 --> 01:22:54.029
our editors to handle that. All right, all right.

01:22:54.069 --> 01:22:57.220
And what's that one? It's kind of like, a fantasy

01:22:57.220 --> 01:23:03.479
thing I call it my magnum opus which is an ambitious

01:23:03.479 --> 01:23:05.020
thing to say about something that hasn't been

01:23:05.020 --> 01:23:09.380
written yet fingers crossed no no don't worry

01:23:09.380 --> 01:23:11.359
about it I'm pretty sure you get that you get

01:23:11.359 --> 01:23:14.399
that going and conclude that anyway right and

01:23:14.399 --> 01:23:17.460
put it out there in the shelves yeah So, okay,

01:23:17.500 --> 01:23:19.420
I wish you the best too, Cheryl. Thank you. And

01:23:19.420 --> 01:23:21.800
I wish you too, Keith, all the best on your next

01:23:21.800 --> 01:23:25.699
book, especially. Keep in touch. And thanks for

01:23:25.699 --> 01:23:27.779
being here on the show. Thank you. Thanks for

01:23:27.779 --> 01:23:30.960
having us. Not at all. My pleasure, guys. Just

01:23:30.960 --> 01:23:34.779
to let you all know, you can go to Kinokuniya

01:23:34.779 --> 01:23:39.399
and to the singlet section and get a copy of

01:23:39.399 --> 01:23:43.500
Lost Things for yourselves, as well as you can

01:23:43.500 --> 01:23:48.630
go to... atelierarcadia .com slash shop slash

01:23:48.630 --> 01:23:52.229
shop and get yourselves a copy too I would also

01:23:52.229 --> 01:23:54.729
like to slide in there a shout out to the owner

01:23:54.729 --> 01:23:58.250
of Book Bar at Duxton Road who also stocks our

01:23:58.250 --> 01:24:00.909
books and is very supportive of us please support

01:24:00.909 --> 01:24:04.010
local bookstores they too like the cafes need

01:24:04.010 --> 01:24:08.970
help so head down to the Book Bar along Duxton

01:24:08.970 --> 01:24:12.659
Road and grab yourselves a copy At the same time.

01:24:12.720 --> 01:24:16.239
I mean, either way. All the options are available

01:24:16.239 --> 01:24:20.319
for you. Idea is bring home a copy of Lost Things.

01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:23.760
It's a hell of a read. Okay, everybody. This

01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:25.619
is Chris Hansen. Thank you for joining us for

01:24:25.619 --> 01:24:29.800
the first episode of Ink Spill on the Chris Hansen

01:24:29.800 --> 01:24:34.319
Conversation. And coming very close to the end

01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:38.039
of Season 6. A couple more episodes to go before

01:24:38.039 --> 01:24:41.140
we... Take a break. A much -needed one. It's

01:24:41.140 --> 01:24:43.880
been a hell of a long season so far. But still,

01:24:44.039 --> 01:24:46.819
come back next week, Friday, same time, same

01:24:46.819 --> 01:24:49.199
place, same channel. Until next time, everybody,

01:24:49.439 --> 01:24:53.460
stay safe. Bye -bye. Bye -bye. Bye. The Chris

01:24:53.460 --> 01:24:57.319
Hansen Conversation. Real talk, no filters, and

01:24:57.319 --> 01:25:00.279
a growing community of more than 90 ,000 subscribers

01:25:00.279 --> 01:25:03.199
across ASEAN, right here from Singapore.