Tonight, in this episode of our Ink Spill series,
we're talking about a book that asks, what if
the things you lost were actually the dreams
you forgot? We're discussing the beautiful, strange
and deeply human world of the short story collection,
Lost Things. My first guest is the author, a
former journalist and educator, who masterfully
blends his background in fact with his talent
for fantasy. His book explores the struggles
of a burnt -out society and a powerful optimism
that transformation is always possible. Please
welcome the brilliant writer behind the collection,
Keith Tan. And joining him is a visionary who
helped bring this world to life. She is the Editor
-in -Chief of Atelier Arcadia, an independent
publishing collective dedicated to championing
unique Singaporean voices. She'll give us a rare
peek behind the scenes of publishing. Please
welcome also the esteemed Cheryl Tay. The one
thing, the one thread that I wanted to have amongst
all of these characters was that your inner world
or what you, the person that you are that's not
seen by many or even most is very real. It matters.
Your feelings do matter. Your anger towards something
does matter. Your hope for something, your optimism,
all this matters. Your cynicism, all of this
matters to you. Before we begin the show, here
is an important announcement. For 100 years,
Shura set the standard for professional audio.
Designed to outlast and outperform, Shure products
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Trust in Shure. You can be Shure with Shure.
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Now, let's start the show. Alright. Now, Kai,
we are suddenly rolling. Yes. For a fact. Hello,
everybody. Welcome back to the Chris Hansen Conversation.
This is going to be the very first episode of
our series, Ink Spill, where we spill the ink
on good stuff, on the good books and good literary
works, because why? Authors, poets, writers,
they need to earn a living. Okay. And I'm doing
my bit here, man. Thank you. To make sure that
you people out there start bloody reading again.
I'm also guilty of this thing because, I mean,
let's be fair here, yeah. Even I find it very
hard to find time to pick up a good book. It's
a fact. I mean, we're so damn busy, right? Yeah,
but then again, I mean, we still need to promote
this. And I think the literary arts, and including
the subject of literature in schools, are kind
of lost. It's so funny, you know, a couple of
seasons ago, I had Dr. Gwee Lee Swee. Yes. Gwee
was here. And he said, no, they should abolish
literature in school. Oh, man. It's a very practical
way of looking at it. He made a good point. Not
that he didn't, you know. But again, I'm like,
don't do that, man. I mean, people already stopped
freaking reading. I mean, stop that shit. I mean,
I still think that literature is... as important
today than it was before in my time. But they
don't even talk Shakespeare anymore. That's pretty
sad. It is. Yeah, my son, he's just been done
with his age. And he's, I mean, in the arts,
they call it humanities now. Make it sound more
professional. So atas. Everything is so atas.
And he does literature, right? And no freaking
history. No. No. No, sorry. No freaking Shakespeare.
What am I saying? No Shakespeare. And I'm like,
what? So you don't know verse. You don't know
prose. You don't know. And, but good for you
guys because they're doing local authors. That's
good. Oh, good. See, I knew it. We've got a shot.
We've got a shot. We could be in. We could be
in. We could be in. So glad I'm here. Kudos for
that, though. But come on, Shakespeare must still
come on, right? It's a classic. You gotta do
one. At least one. At least try your hand at
Hamlet. Hate it all you want, but at least respect
where it all came from. One of the greats. To
this day, I still remember certain verses from
Shakespeare in my days in school. And some of
these things you don't forget. Yeah. Well, anyway,
I've got a bunch of writers with me. You're a
writer too, Cheryl. I write a bunch of things.
I've written some poetry. I've written some silk
punk fantasy. What fantasy? Silk punk. So it's
like Asian steampunk. Steampunk is a thing, right?
Yes. So this is with an Asian twister. All right,
everybody, let me make the proper introductions
here. I've got with me in studio Keith Tan, author.
author, oh my, I just said author. That's an
animal, sorry. Keith Tan, author. Just for today.
Oh my goodness, what happened to my pronunciation?
And Cheryl Tay, his publisher and also a writer
herself. And we're going to talk about one of
Keith's works. It's called Lost Things. And you
can see these are flashed on the screen. There
you go. There. The jazz hands. That was a good
move. Right. Let's talk about this then. Journalism
versus fantasy, Keith. Your background is journalism
and education. Yes. Wow. Just when I was talking
about O -levels and stuff, what were you teaching,
man? I am currently teaching primary school.
Oh. So I was a permanent staff, so like MOE school
and all that. But then I sort of took a step
back. So I'm what we call now a flexi, which
is like a trained relief teacher. Right. So I
go in whenever school has need and, you know,
I'm there for a few weeks all the way up to a
whole year. Right. So, yeah, that's basically
what I do in the day. What do you teach? English.
English? Yes. Okay. So PSLE English, upper primary.
Almost your full time in life, man. Yes, a very
interesting time. Are you super politically correct?
I know. I am civil service trained. I have that
training. I know how to couch my words. I just
think they should bloody abolish the whole bloody
PSA. I mean, come on. At 12 years old, what the
hell do you know? I had a very strong feeling
the conversation was going to go this way really
fast. I mean, I mean. With Chris Anson, you know
you're going this way. I mean, sometimes we even
need to help these kids put on their freaking
underwear at 12. That's a sad day. No, no, no.
That never happened to my son. He's going to
see this and be like, Dad. Fantasy here. He might
see this and be like, Dad, don't tell. That was
between us. You're not supposed to say that.
Anyway, this is my firm belief anyway. There's
another topic for another day. Oh, there's a
whole other thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but
backgrounds in journalism and education. Let's
talk about your journalism bit. Okay. So, it
was basically my major. I sort of basically sort
of grew up with the belief that words had a lot
of power in them. Okay. So, So I had a chance
to do a double major. It was English and journalism.
No, no, no, not smart. I went to Australia. I
went to Australia. So immediate. So the political
incorrectness is coming in now. Yes. It's probably
one of the reasons why I didn't survive that
long as a permanent staff. I can do the job of
a teacher in the classroom. I'm good at that.
But step outside that. Oh, I've got words. And
no one likes them. So, you know, I think I'm
a pretty decent teacher. I'm not a very decent
civil servant. So, you know, maybe that's why
I write what I write. Yeah, we'll come to that.
Yeah, we will come to that in a bit. But yeah,
I just basically had this idea that, you know...
Words have meaning. Words have power. The way
we frame them, the way we phrase them, it's important.
And it either can add to discourse or societal,
the way we talk to each other about things, or
it can take away from it. And so I guess I wanted
to be a journalist or at least have the training
of a journalist to help me unpack that and help
me speak in a way that adds to our overall discourse.
So that was basically my training as a journalist.
And then I came back and I thought, maybe I'd
rather follow the education side of things rather
than join SPH. This is where he's leaving a little
gap. So did you join SPH? Tempted to, but no,
I didn't in the end. So my father was from SPH,
not the journalism side, the marketing side.
So yeah, there was that, should I, should I?
In the end, I just went with MOE. Here I am.
It's very funny because I took almost a different
path. I went to school and then I became a journalist.
And I still am. I did join the SPH group. I did
go down the dark side. Oh, I'm so sorry for you.
Sorry to my former colleagues, none of whom currently
work there. Four reasons we may not discuss today.
Why not? It was nice. We had a good run. That's
a very good way of saying it as well. That's
a very good way of saying it. I don't know. I'm
not going to say it too much. It's actually more
Bertha's territory, not mine. Okay. So journalism
in Singapore, I would definitely assume is a
little bit different from... what you were schooled
in in Australia, right, Keith, and yourself as
well? Well, I currently work for an American
news agency. So it's a little different there
because they believe in the First Amendment and
things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa, constitutional
rights. America. I beat the fifth, yeah. Okay.
Yeah, America, man. Okay. But then again, these
are fields, journalism, education, fields based
on facts and reality. So what made you decide
to write Lost Things, a collection of fantasy
stories? I think that it... Okay, the way it
started out was that it was a collection of stories
that was more about nostalgia, about Singapore
changing and all that. And that was the first
collection that I pitched to her. And then she
was like, okay, can we value add this? And then
back and forth, back and forth for months. And
she was fantastic in sort of like trying to...
tease out that value add, you know, like, can
we see it in a different dimension? And it eventually
became a sort of a collection of stories where
it's sort of like, what if I can sort of see
your emotional state? Like, it's a bit more physical,
a bit more present. Because, and as someone who's
in this, who's a millennial, you know, I'm late
30s, I have a lot of colleagues and friends,
peers, who are sort of like, I don't hate what
I do. but I'm really unhappy where I am. And
it's sort of like, okay, so what are you going
to do about it? There is like a whole thing,
like there's so many things that are in the way
of them trying to be the person that they want
to be. So they're sort of like in this half here,
half there sort of state. And so I thought, okay,
what if I could find a way to sort of bring that
out into a sort of like a world that is sort
of similar, but not quite. Okay, so your objective
was to have this, this is probably one of the
few issues, loosely stating it, issues that you
actually try to put a cross in your book as a
form of acknowledgement that these things do
exist in our society today. Yeah. Right? Okay.
So a lot of people feeling unfulfilled then.
I think I couldn't freely say that, even as a
former Silver 7 and all. Even amongst my colleagues.
It's a lot of like... It's opinion, what the
hell? That says it all. But it's basically a
lot of people who are like, I'm unhappy. But
what if... It's like... all this could be done.
It can be solved. You know, you can make these
decisions. You do have the information that's
available. If you do your research and you plan
everything out, it's all possible. Are you one
of those? Was. I think it took a while for me
to decide that, you know, I'm going to step back
from, you know, that permanent job and the safety
of that iron rice bowl, you know, civil service
and all that. And to go and try and do my own
thing. That takes a lot of courage, huh? I think...
To some extent, I think it does. But I think
it also is at some point you got to realize that
the cost is not, like the price of staying is
more than the price of leaving. So when you made
that decision, okay, when you wrote this book,
and just particular to this story you just told
me about, did you already decide to take on this
particular role you have as an educator doing
belief teaching? Just to, you know, because that
whole thing you explained just now. Okay, it's
really teaching. Yeah. Okay. To go that direction
so that you could feel a little bit more fulfilled
and live life at 100%. Yes. Yeah. So it's basically
like... Did you quit then or before? I was already
writing as a permanent, like while I was doing
permanent stuff and all that. So, you know, I'll
do the day job, come back, you know, be exhausted.
bash out words on the keyboard, fall asleep at
it, go to sleep, wake up next morning, rinse
and repeat. And for a while, it was okay. But
I think that in your 20s is quite doable. Once
you hit your 30s, energy levels start dipping.
You've got to take care of your health as well.
And then at some point, I felt like I have to
make a decision about how I want to live. Yeah,
but it's the timeline that I'm more concerned
about because did it occur to you to leave your
perm staff position? after having written this
book oh before was before yeah so this so this
was something that um i had already left and
i was writing things and then um and then i met
um cheryl and then you know i pitched everything
and and then yeah then that process kicked in
of editing and okay so how would you think that
it would have been a different outcome if you
were still a perm staff writing this story As
opposed to having already left a perm staff position,
made that choice to leave and wrote the story.
Would the outcome have been different? The whole
flavor of the tale. Yeah, I think that, well,
first of all, I may not have even written it
to begin with because I think that perspective
may not have even been there. Because I think
at some point, sometimes you have to step away
from things for a while, for like a couple of
years and sort of look back and see, oh, that
was me, you know? Yeah. So in some ways, it's
like I inserted little bits of myself into like,
even like say the first story, you know, Peniel
and Daniel, it's always this sense of like, there
are two very different versions of me at work.
And one, one thing to, you know, say, this is
life. I should be doing this. And then someone
else saying, no, no, no, shut up, shut up, shut
up. There is a more efficient way. You know,
we got to be pragmatic. You know, this is where
the dollars are. Shut up. We do this thing. Dollars.
Follow the dollars. It's that bad out there?
It sounds like me, man. Like I've got an angel
on one shoulder and a devil on the other, you
know? And they're all talking to me. And very
convincing. I hear voices in my head. Yeah. How
about you, Cheryl? What do you think? Are you
in that kind of position or are you so happy
working for this Yank firm? I love the American
Constitution. Hi to my colleagues on the other
side. I will say that I am in a very privileged
position to actually love my job. unironically
um i enjoy it i love the nine to five grind and
even the overtime but what i think that it hasn't
given me time to do is like develop my creative
self as much as i wanted to um i think that a
lot of what comes with like running this indie
micropress thing on the side is this overwhelming
amount of admin. No one warns you about that,
you know, because when you talk to other writers,
they're like, yeah, go and do that, you know?
And then I'm like, oh, so easy. Okay, okay. Just
type setting, right? No. Shit, I got screwed
here. There's apparently a lot of other things
you need to do, like issuing invoices, doing
math. Not great, you know? So a lot of my time
goes into that. and also editing and fielding
pitches from like new writers who come to me
with ideas and then when all is said and done
this is like post dinner you know like trying
to wind down and then I'm like oh well shit I
still got a draft to write yeah I mean admin
and accounting is something that right brainers
just hate to do man yeah I mean it's just to
bring this back to the idea of like fantasy and
things like that I think that for a lot of people,
especially in Singapore, who are writing, we
all still have day jobs. The whole idea of quitting
your job and doing something scaled down hasn't
quite occurred to people, especially in the 30s
age range. I'm also in my 30s. And I think that
it's because we are afraid of being broke. You
don't have to be in your 30s to be afraid of
being broke. I'm 55 and I'm still afraid of being
broke, you know. I'm glad to know that problem
doesn't go away. It doesn't go away. It really
doesn't. As a matter of fact, I'm kind of enjoying
this conversation simply because it's very human.
It's really very real. And this young man, I
can call him young man. I don't know if I'm that
young. Oh, you really? 38. It's 38. I'm young.
I'll take it. I'm young. I'll take it. Anything
to go back to 40. Okay. Right. You know, and
he took the plunge, right? I mean, it's not easy
to do stuff like that. And congratulations. Thank
you. I think it's fantastic. I mean, I can't
even do stuff like that. I wish, I wish, but
I can't. You know, and yeah, I hear you, man.
And I think this is an issue. anywhere in the
world, not just here in Singapore. But writing
is a fantasy thing, you know. Sorry, I'm not
a writer. My only claim to fame is my contribution
to Felix Cheung's book, Letter to My Son. That's
my only claim to fame. Other than that, I am
not a writer. I am not my sister. But don't put
her behind a microphone either. I mean, I'm certainly
better than her behind a microphone. I hope she
doesn't watch this episode. Yes, okay. And, you
know, when you talk about, when we talk about
fantasy and how you've written your book, and
I think if you read this, or seen it actually,
it's a video of a prime minister who actually
said, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're a boring lot. We're
boring people. I mean, I'm not saying verbatim,
not quoting verbatim. We are maybe a boring lot,
but we are practical. And my take is, can you
please don't encourage that? I mean, we are already
boring. I don't think we should get even more
boring. But he says we are practical, but results
driven. We live in this rat race, you know, and
it's so driven, results driven in society. Do
you think that our people, by and large, generally,
would have time? or even the capacity to imagine
and fantasize? I think that it is, it can, they
do have the capacity, I feel, I believe. But
I think it's also highly discouraged. We have
sort of streamlined, you know, your age from
age five to 25 at least. you know, your entire
life process, you know, from education all the
way to getting a job, BTO and all that. So in
a sense, because if you follow that set route,
you will be moderately successful by Singapore
standards, generally speaking. But whether or
not you enjoy it. your days as a part of that
process, you know, that's a whole other story.
So I think that there is that pressure to follow
this very prescribed route of things. And unfortunately,
I really wish that kids, young people had more
space to go and imagine and play and be creative
because even though it doesn't sort of directly
address the, so have you solved, what have you
solved today? What have you learned today? You
know, have you, you know, plus 2 % to your competency,
that kind of thing. It still does add to that
human experience. And if ultimately, if we are
to, you know, imagine a country with another
great, with the next great innovation, it is
going to need to come from someone who's with
a creative mind and a creative brain that may
not necessarily have done well, you know, in
a straight up academic setting. Yeah. So yeah,
I think that we do need that. And it's... I feel
like at some point we are going to pay the price.
I agree. I agree completely. I think we're short
of innovators now. I mean, we take a look at
Singapore. I mean, specific to our nation. Years
ago, the thumb drive, the first thumb drive came
out in this country. Yeah. Right. If I'm not
mistaken, I can stand corrected. You know, thumb
drive is like track 2000. uh i can't remember
names but excited from here yeah yeah and then
creative technologies right what else do we have
okay razer yeah secret lab yeah um but if we're
looking at how it was in the past compared to
how things have been so far i think we are lacking
in having innovators in my opinion. And also,
when I look back in my day, when we all didn't
play computer games, we did, without us, you
guys would not have had the luxury of having
computer games, man. It started with Game & Watch,
you know, before the Nintendo started. Black
& White. No, not Black & White. Game Boy. Liquid
Crystal. No, it was even before Game Boy. In
the 70s, there was a thing called Game & Watch.
With the games like Parachute, Octopus, Manhole.
And to us, it was like, wow, this is magic already.
But we were dreamers. Most of my friends, all
of us, when we were younger, we were ex -genders.
We were all dreamers, man. We dreamt a lot. I
would say that actually that hasn't quite stopped.
It's just sort of changed form. You think so?
Yeah. Changed form. I mean, I just came from
Singapore Writers Festival yesterday. Yeah. And
I had so many engaging conversations with like
other people our age. And I think that there's
a lot of capacity for like imagination and people
who have great ideas and who kind of want to
explore it. But also there's this like, this
specter of AI where they're like, oh, this thing
can write better than me. And I'm like, actually
it can. But not yet, not yet. But also this other
thing, which is like, as Keith said, getting
so caught up in your nine to five that you're
like, I don't want a five to nine after my nine
to five. I don't want to do this. I want to go
out and not sit at a desk and pump out these
ideas. So my response to that has always been
like, You need to let your dreams go somewhere.
Yeah. In that they need to take form and take
shape. Right. And the problem here is not a lack
of dreams. The problem is a lack of time to realize
them is what I think. How about a lack of opportunity?
What do you think? Are there still opportunities?
Not just for writers. I mean, across the board,
you know, for those people in the creative field,
musicians, artists, painters, even. That's a
tough question, but also an interesting one posed
to someone who had started their own indie press.
So the short answer to that is not as much as
I would like. I think of myself as a very greedy
artist. I want more support. um the community
itself to be more welcoming to new ideas i want
people to be more interested in genre fiction
i want um this to grow more rather than um have
gatekeepers in place that exclude new writers
um so that that was part of my idea but at the
same time i'm also like i understand the world
works a certain way and continues to turn you
know so yeah I'm interested to hear what you
have to say. Well, I think that overall, I think
that there are still plenty of opportunities.
But I think that it also requires a little bit
of a shamelessness. I mean, let's say if we take
traditional publishing, right? You write a book,
you make a manuscript, you email it off to agents,
and then they will get back to you. And then
maybe they'll pick you up, maybe they won't.
If an agent does accept your work, then they'll
represent your work to publishers, so on and
so forth. But that's not quite the case nowadays,
especially because there's just so much more
work being put out, manuscript work. And now
there's AI to help you along with that whole
process. So agents have to sift through more
volumes. Publishers are, people are trying to
look. increase profit margins in certain ways.
How can we get a little bit more out of this
and that? And so I think you have to be a little
bit, sort of think a little outside of the box.
And that's why I think that Atelier Acadia was
so helpful for me to get a collection of stories
that probably would not have survived or gone
through the mainstream publication route. This
would probably not have made it because I don't...
If you look at it in terms of the pure financial
numbers, will this be the next million -dollar
bestseller? No, it will not. But is it something
worthy of a little bit of attention, a little
bit of polishing, and then we can put it up as
a work? Yeah. So I think that you have to be
a little bit creative and go around things a
little bit. And at the end of the day, there
is the information out there. sometimes you do
have to sort of like step up a little bit. The
future of literature, the literary arts in Singapore,
we'll talk about that a little later. We'll continue
on that topic later on. Let's talk about your
book. Your characters are strange. Wonderfully,
wonderfully strange. Thank you. From a man playing
chess with a chicken to other unusual characters.
Rather than asking where these ideas come from,
tell us what essential human truth? About loneliness,
hope or loss, does the strangest character in
this collection represent for you? Oh, that is
deep. I think that the one thing, the one thread
that I wanted to have amongst all of these characters
was that your inner world or the person that
you are that's not seen by many or even most
is very real. It matters. your feelings do matter.
Your anger towards something does matter. Your
hope for something, your optimism, all this matters.
Your cynicism, all of this matters to you, both
to you and to the world. And if you shut it down
and just pretend that it's not there, then that
inevitably can rebound on you in other ways that
you didn't predict or you didn't foresee. For
example, there was a character who was playing
chicken and chess. He's actually dealing with
quite a lot of grief and loss from a mistake
that he made and that he refused to acknowledge
way back. That resulted in severed ties and family
loss and all that. That story was really a whole
journey of him working and confronting that grief
that he was feeling. Because it was very difficult
to just say like, oh, he's sad. He saw a picture
of that family member and then he felt the good
times, the end, that kind of thing. I really
wanted to create that fantasy space where he
can sort of have almost like a journey to sort
of confront and realize that all this is hanging
on him and he needs to face it or things will
just... keep getting worse so basically you're
you're writing about flight syndrome running
away from something ignoring it burying it instead
of confronting it head -on i think yeah some
of this some of these characters definitely were
facing that issue of do i flight do i fight or
do i fly yeah yeah yeah so i think that and so
i guess i wanted an ensemble of characters who
are in some ways, realizing there's stuff that
they need to deal with and then going to deal
with it versus some of those who have decided
to just, let me just delay this and sit on it
for sometimes what becomes 10, 20 years. Yeah.
Yeah. But then again, there's also a lot of truth,
including here in Singapore, right? I mean, a
lot of people actually repress themselves. They
don't talk about things. Yeah. And then they
take it out on others in certain formats. It
manifests in some way. And it's very funny that
you mentioned this because something real just
happened two days ago. It was raining two days
back in the evening. Ooh, there's a siren going.
Okay, right. And my wife, it was raining, and
my wife went to buy some groceries. And it was
a happy thing because what she went to buy, was
meant to be this smorgasbord feast that she was
going to really cook up for our son to celebrate
the end of his O -levels and the end of his secondary
school life. It was a nice thing. She was very
happy. She got goodbyes, you know, tomahawks.
Nice. And, well, she had to walk into this little
alleyway and try to run away from the rain to
get to her car. So, this old dude, on the PMA,
deliberately sped up behind her and ran her over.
Oh my god. Is she okay? Well, she's at home.
Her back is hurting her. She fell on her back
in the rain and she said, why did you run into
me? He just skirted around her and scolded her
for being too slow and left her lying there on
her back. I mean, of course, you know, right
now I'm still angry, but I am not as furious
as I was because I really wish I could really
run back there and find out, find this man, give
it to him, yeah, then end up in jail. Well, it's
on record now. Yeah, but I didn't do it. I'm
sorry I said it. Wishful thinking, man. I'm sorry,
me repressing it, I'm saying it. I mean, I guess
any good man, any good husband would feel the
same, right? If not, then you might as well not
be married. But right now, days later, when I
look at it, I think, what's wrong with this guy?
And he's not the only one. I mean, there's been
so many. You can see it every day on the roads.
And I think there's so much repression going
on out there. Same simple thing. Filter. Put
on your signal indicator to filter left or right.
And instead of people giving you a way to speed
up, some people just come out, cut your lane.
Then after that, they slow down. Why do people
behave this way? And I think, wow, don't we have
a lot of stressed out people here? Yeah, I think
that it's also like a lot of people not only
not engaging with their emotions, but not engaging
their emotions with their emotions in a healthy
way. Honestly, not to like tout the creative
industries too much, but I also don't think that
they're engaging like with their softer sides,
right? Like if they read and they feel what other
people are feeling and realize that this like
loneliness epidemic that we have or this whole
idea that the world is on fire and I am the only
one in a burning room. No, actually everyone,
unfortunately, is in the burning room. That's
a good analogy, yeah. We're all on fire together,
but then, you know, when we burn together, Together
we feel warmer, perhaps. I don't know. All I
can see in my head is a lot of barbecued people
in one room. But I think, yeah. People are being
barbecued in the same room. I think it's the
whole idea of suffering, feeling very individual
and not collective. Yeah, you're not the only
one having problems, right? And it's not about
whinging and whining and catastrophizing. But
no, it becomes... I don't know whether it's going
to be good material for you for your next book,
but I think it's gone the other direction. People
are so repressed, they end up being entitled.
And he's looking out for numero uno. You know
what I mean? You're looking out for number one.
And that's how I see it. I see that happening
all the time. In little nuances, for example,
I open the door for a family coming through.
So I open the door for them. They walk past you
without even looking at you as if they're like
monarchs doing this, you know, walking past you.
And they don't even say thank you. They don't
even look at you and smile. To me, I mean, it's
not just about being disrespectful or being rude.
It's being entitled. Or are you being bullied
at work by your bosses so badly that you feel
that you want to be the boss and react this way
to others like you've been treated at work? You
know, that's the feeling I get anyway. And yeah,
I mean, I like what you've done with your book
because it's kind of real. Though it's fantasy,
but of course you've got to read between the
lines. When I always say, I'm going to say this,
I'm so tempted. Read between the lines. Yeah.
Like, hey, hey, screw you, man. That you, that
you. Yeah, I mean, that's what I feel, you know.
Like, okay. Then I go sit down and think, am
I in that spot? So when you write, do you focus
on the real world message first? or focus on
the fantasy element first? Which comes first?
Chicken or the egg? Oh, wow. I'm sort of a chicken
and egg person. So it's sort of like, okay, I
guess I would start with like, what is something
or some aspect or some dimension that I want
to unpack? And then I sort of start creating
that fantasy space around it. So why this...
text this manuscript took relatively long to
create because a lot of the stuff that i sort
of went in with like right i'm gonna start typing
and i type my like wait um i think i need to
create some new rule or new element or new fantastical
space so that this thing can be brought out better
so the whole chicken and chest thing um there's
there's that thing that's like third story i
think um yeah that that entire world that one
of the character traverses to go and find that
his wife, that entire thing was not, I did not
prepare that at all before I started the story.
It was sort of like, as I typed, I went like,
I need more space. So I create more space. So
then like, I need even more space. So then I
go create more space and on and on it goes until
you have what you see in front of you. So it's
really sort of like, I didn't really create the
world, the fantasy world simply because I wanted
that world. It's more of, this is, this fantasy
world is the space I need so that I can unpack
something that, you know, it's not very apparent
or, you know, if we were just to be like, you
know, straight laced, real. Yeah. So, so yeah,
that was basically my creative process for this.
Now your publisher, Cesar Dexnew, describes you
as an optimist who believes in transformation.
Was writing this book part of your own transformation?
I think it was. I think that in a sense, it challenged
me a lot. And why I appreciate Cheryl and Lynette,
the other editors, so much is because they were
constantly challenging me and saying, we think
you can do more. We think you can make this a
little stranger, a little bit more fantastical
in some aspects, but also more real and more
grounded in other aspects as well. So they were
really there to push me as a writer. So yeah,
I think that that was a fantastic part of the
overall process of writing this. So, right. See,
now I'm going to the easy questions. What was
the hardest part of writing this collection?
I think the hardest part was actually believing
that anyone would bother. with reading any of
this. Really? Yeah. How's it been, really, honestly?
I mean, should I be asking this? Since publication,
since being released, has the book been picked
up? I would say... It's not been doing that badly.
We were stocking at Kinokuniya because our print
run sold out. So by the time this comes out,
there will probably be more copies available,
which is a great thing. So easy? Yeah. So yeah,
that was a fear. And at some point, you know,
you have to decide that, you know, push it aside.
You know, I have to get it done. I have to get
it done. I'm happy for you, man. Thank you. I
mean, I mean. I think that's gratifying. If I
were an author, which I will never be, I can't
do stuff like that. But you're a great host.
Yeah. You're a great host and people listen.
Are you listening? Yeah. Right. Still there.
I mean, I feel so gratified knowing that people
are just flying off the shelves. Now, I understand
how my sister feels when her books fly off the
shelves. You know, it's like people are reading
it. You know, and it's so gratifying, isn't it?
I mean, I think it's marvelous. And it also shows
that at least some people are still bloody reading,
right? Yes. Yeah. Wow. Look at the affirmation
there. That validates it. Yes. Makes it all worthwhile.
I will say that there's a huge push in Singapore
to read like healing fiction, like Korean literature,
Japanese literature. So a lot of that stuff.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Educate me here.
Healing fiction? Yeah. Okay, so it's a genre.
What the fuck's healing fiction? Time for an
education. Okay, so it's a full sub -genre of
stuff about imagine the protagonist stressed
from the travails of city life, journeying to
the seaside where they find a cafe where there
is a cat. So, not to rag in the genre, I write
things in that genre occasionally to heal myself
and I don't know, because I can. But also, So
there's a whole genre. People are very interested
in that. Really? Yes. Why? What do you think?
What do you think? Interesting topic, man. What
do you think? I think it's because there's a
part of us that needs that and aspires towards
the Japanese seaside cafe. Because we're all
bloody tired. I tell you. I mean, think about
it. Think about it. You're in the seaside cafe
and all that. It's kind of cool. I think about
it. I mean, you're pretty good at this, man.
You really drew a picture in my head. And I'm
like, wow, this guy looks kind of nice. You'd
go there, wouldn't you? Oh, fuck yeah. Not just
that. I mean, I owed it too, man. Yeah. So, a
woman loses her mind, moves to Seaside, opens
a bookstore. Man loses his wife, moves to Seaside,
visits a restaurant. I mean, like, lots of stuff.
I'm getting mental orgasm here. Come on, go on.
It's also these people who want to go to Japan.
Actually, you're not too far wrong, man. You
know, I hardly go to Japan. I mean, I've been
there. I mean, the last trip was just a couple
of years back. And we went to Sapporo. And somewhere
around nearby, the big chocolate factories. You
know, they got chocolate stuff and all that,
right? And there's this underground thing where
you walk underground to get to the train station,
blah, blah, blah. And then we saw this cafe,
underground, no big shakes, right? But the old
man standing behind the counter, and the coffee
is not your coffee machine, artisanal coffee
shit, yeah? I mean, I like it too, but then again,
I still prefer my Nanyang coffee, my kopi, you
know? And the smell of the coffee just permeating
along that underground walkway, the thoroughfare.
And then I saw this old Japanese man slowly walking,
preparing coffee over stoves. Now, healing fictionists,
imagine if there was a magical cat there too.
That doesn't work for me. You slightly ruined
his narrative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did. Yeah,
I mean. Okay, we'll take away the cat. We'll
take away the cat. No, I see the cat in my head.
But it didn't happen. There was no cat, Chris.
There was no cat. Yes. What's that cat? You know,
what's that famous cat thing? When you have deja
vu and you see that cat. What's the name for
that cat? Okay, never mind. Yeah, you satirize.
So, there was this, you know that smell of coffee,
the roasting of the coffee. And then he had old
speakers, you know. Those old wooden cabinet
speakers, big ones. And he had record players.
And he was playing, not Japanese music. He was
playing the whole shit. You know your... your
your cafe lounge yes and so i i look at my family
and i went guys can we just have coffee here
for a bit yeah and i just sat there and i was
in i was in la la land man i was like wow that
that's why i'm saying you know i mean yeah i
mean i want that yeah oh that's healing What
do you call it? Healing what? Healing fiction.
It's a genre unto itself. Okay, I'm a plebiscite,
so sorry. I mean, I'm really not this person
like you would think. Not all Hansons are, but
yes. Yeah, I mean, that's so cool. That is so
cool. I would love to have something like that.
Yeah. But yeah, there are books that are selling
in Singapore. And I think because everybody wants
something like that. If you take a look at the
number of cafes we've got in Singapore, why do
you think? Everybody wants to have a fucking
cafe. That's a lot of them. Yes, it reached a
stage where I was told, and I will not mention
names, a couple of years back, there was a kind
of an unquiet moratorium. to not issue any more
licenses out for cafes. Too many failing ones.
Too many failing ones. Exactly. Everybody wants
a cafe. But why? I think this idea of having
a cafe, right? Then you have that coffee, jazz,
lounge, jazz, music. And then you smell a coffee
and roasts. And I had a person, a friend of mine,
who actually lives upstairs. And she's a coffee
expert. And she wouldn't want to do anything
else except coffee stuff. And she absolutely
loves it. There's this thing about people wanting
to go and do this because I think we're all tired.
And they're not realizing the F &B makes you
even more tired. But I think we're all tired,
man. Sorry, aside from lost things. It's an interesting
topic though you brought up because you really
drew this image in my head. But I think you are
absolutely correct in that people are trying
to find that escape. And I think that sometimes,
unfortunately, the corporate world has a way
of keeping you down and saying, look, shut up.
Just do what it takes. The company needs this.
Make your profits and get to work. Yeah, I mean,
don't you realize these days, even in a corporate
setting, when... When you do open your mouth
to say something and they all look at you like
you're talking. And then I go. Yeah. Can I just
interject? I had a really funny story about that.
So I am trained in Australia. My teacher training
was in Australia. And if you've ever met Australians,
they are very vocal and upfront. And I came back
and I joined Ministry of Education. And I remember
first meeting I ever had. So this is my first
real job, first meeting I ever had. One week
in, it was a department meeting and the department
was listing out all its objectives for the year,
long list of stuff. And I just went, that's too
much. There's no way we can get any of this done.
I bet that went down well. I had three meetings
after that about professionalism and how we should
speak in turn only when called upon. That explains
why at a particular forum or convention or conference
or whatever you might want to call it, this particular
person actually said to a bunch of teachers,
when you speak to me, you stand up. Oh, yes,
that one. Fortunately, I was not there. And you
know, I just think, come on. How can we not be
repressed? How can we not be unhappy? And I am
bipartisan. I'm not going to bring politics into
this any further than what I've just said. But
I just feel that it's a fact. Anyway, even in
corporate Singapore, I hear this all the time.
I see this all the time. Don't speak out of turn.
And then what? We're just robots. We're a bunch
of sheep, you know, and I can't stand it. And
that's why I feel that, yeah, I mean, now that
you mentioned healing fiction is very marketable,
you know, and sure, I can see why. And if that
is really marketable, it only goes to show that
a lot of people need bloody healing, right? Yeah.
But on the other end of it, I think that the
reason why people buy things like Keith's book
or even mine, It's because they want to think
about another world that is not theirs at all.
Yeah, man. Yeah. So, you know, like, there's
a Charlie the Chicken in this book. Where are
you going to find a talking chicken? You know?
Well, like my fantasy, maybe I should write a
book and a short story and give it to you. Because
my fantasy would be, I find myself on a lonely
island where I'm the only inhabitant. And it's
a lovely luxury house there. And the rest of
the fucking world is far away from me. But who's
going to clean the luxury house? You know, this
is all the logistics. Hello, robots. AI can be
good for something. Yeah, man. Damn it. You know,
and just sometimes the idea of just being alone
on a deserted island, right? And live out your
years, right? It's so enticing. But why would
someone like me think that way, feel that way,
want to have it that way? There must be some,
I mean, there must be a reason, right? Yeah.
And I really think that, yeah, I don't understand
the world anymore, by the way. That's great.
I'm getting old, man. Moving really fast right
now. Yeah, man. I mean, I hope the aliens come
and just show themselves to us finally and say
that, can we evolve to another, you know, higher
level or something? Well, you know, well, if
Elon Musk makes his way to Mars, he might find
out. Hey, wait for the end of November, man.
Three -Eyed Atlas is making his way here, man.
Oh, good. Look out for it. Look out for it. 27th
of November or 28th of November, we might have
a rude shock. Okay, I digress. After someone
finishes the last page of Lost Things, what's
the one thing you hope they walk away thinking
or feeling? I think if there's anything I want
a reader to come away with is the idea that I
could do something about this. Like, I don't
care if you didn't really like the characters
or nothing memorable stood out or heck, forget
the book even. If at some point, this was a part
in that long journey to deciding that I don't
like where I am and I want to do something about
it. I intend to do something about it. Then I
think the book has done its job. So yeah, I'm
not terribly interested in like the book per
se, but more of like, how does it add to your
life as a reader in that journey? Does it add
any value? Whether or not the reader is spurred
into taking some form of action. Yes. Wow. You
know, moving themselves forward. If everybody
who buys your book decides to quit their jobs,
I tell you, you're going to be... Okay, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. All the figures will be pointed at
Keaton. I'm sorry. Your fault, man. Don't worry.
You were the one that got me going. We are currently
in... As we film this, we're currently in a period
of what we call job hugging. People are not quitting
because the economy is so bad. So don't worry,
you're safe. For now, for now, for now. Until
the economy picks up and you're like, screw this.
Oh, I quit my job because Keith Tan told me to.
That escalated. If this becomes a manifesto,
the disclaimer is that I had nothing to do with
it. This was not the intention. I am sorry. Singapore
is now facing unemployment because of this book
called Lost Things. Then I'll run to Japan and
I'll start my own cafe somewhere with a magical
cat and you'll never hear of me again. No, no,
no. I will be the cat. Disclaimer, disclaimer,
okay? I just want to tell everybody here, okay?
This is just humor, okay? Please don't fucking
take us too seriously. Me! Don't take me too
seriously about what I've just said, okay? Don't
be stupid, okay? Don't be dingbats. Right. So,
to the both of you, the origin story of Keith
coming to an independent publisher, like... Let
me pronounce this right now. Atelier Arcadia.
Yeah. Did I say it right? Did I say it right?
You can just call it Arcadia at this point, you
know. No, no, it's not cool. This is rolling
your tongue when you say that. Atelier, Atelier
Arcadia. Yes, you got it right. You got it right.
So when, why did you go to an indie publisher
like Atelier Arcadia? I think it was really just
like, I think I saw an ad. Gosh, this was, Two
years ago? I actually do have the story straight.
Okay. I can start this one. It's open to both
of you. Yeah. Come on. It was when we were having
some events for an anthology that I had just
put out with about 15 Asian creatives called
Good Girls, Bad Ends. Good Girls, Bad Ends. Yeah,
feminist retellings of some Asian myths where
things have gone very badly for some women, you
know, in the story. So that book is also out.
It's art and prose as well. So it's a mix. And
Keith came to that event. I was just telling
Lynette, who's the other person who works with
Arcadia. And I said, well, this guy came and
talked to me about a story about penguins. And
this is insane. And we have to talk to this guy.
Can you come over here and let's have this conversation?
And that is my side of the story. That sounds
pretty accurate. That pretty sounds pretty accurate.
So I was basically seeing, saw an ad. on Instagram
for, that there's a book launch and people, you
know, it's time to meet authors and all that.
So I was like, cool. I don't know what this will
lead to. Let's just go. You know, and because
at a point in time, I was sort of like, I want
to write, but I'm a little bit lost. You know,
like I don't know what my next writing project
is. So it was sort of like, okay, show up, you
know, half of life is showing up, right? Yeah.
So then that's when I listened to everything.
I was like, cool, what if I pitch this idea?
And that's basically it. So it was really just
like, I didn't really go in with an agenda per
se. It was just, let's just show up and see what
happens. And to be honest, yeah, we just ended
up talking shop about this particular short story
that he had written. And I think it was kind
of a draft and he said that he would send it
over. And that was the genesis of the entire
project in that it started with a seed and I
was very interested in that idea. And then it
just progressed from there. But who is Atelier
Arcadia? The TLDR of it is that I started it
during the COVID period when we were... Okay,
there's actually a further origin story to this.
I started a Discord server during the COVID period
because everyone was losing their minds at home,
right? All these writers all cooped up. And then
it's as if a mental health was really great before
that. So when COVID started, I was like, well,
all these people from Asian writers across Southeast
Asia and beyond, even East Asia. I kind of wanted
to make a space for that. So myself and an artist
friend, we ran this Discord server for a little
bit. And then Lynette, the other writer, came
on board. And we were like, okay. I had registered
the label already. And I was thinking of putting
out some work. And then we formalized this team
that was able to... to put together books. I'm
not going to lie, it's not very big. There's
a rotating cast of like three people. So we edit
each other and we edit other people as well.
And it helps that our day jobs are linked to
editing. It helps that we're professionally qualified
to do this. We also work with artists who do
the lovely covers. A lot of our recent covers
have been done by Hendry, an Indonesian artist
who was studying graphic design in school and
then came on board to help me with this. Wow.
So yeah, I mean, this is one of those like rollercoaster
ride things that developed over the last four
years or so. And we've put out about a dozen
titles since then, which... Sounds like not a
lot, but for a three -person team. Yeah, I think
it's pretty brilliant. I think it's pretty brilliant,
Cheryl. Thank you. I mean, when I listen to this
story, I remember it started out when it was
COVID and then nothing better to do, right? Instead
of us freaking going insane. Do this shit, right?
And then it evolved slowly from there. It's much
like, you know, the good old days. When you have
a, you know, Singapore didn't have it that way,
but if you hear stories about, oh, the band started
out in the garage. Then after that, look at what
a better band is today, you know. I think it's
kind of cool. It's so fun. And it's just, it's
so clear that people like you, you know, starting
out this way, you guys enjoy this so much. You
have to. It's so fun for you, right? Yeah. What
we did when COVID hit as artists. And the Star
Association came together and said, let's do
the very first online concert kind of thing,
you know. And all of us recorded at home from
magicians. And I sang and recorded off in my
living room and in my last home. And all of us
had our part to play, including Mo, Mo Alka.
And he did his in his Colorado home, you know.
And it was a funny comedy skit. And all of us
contributed to that effort. And it was meaningful
somehow. Then Musos got together and then they
had the Zoom thing. And everyone somehow being
separated by distance over that digital, you
know, using a digital platform. and playing different
instruments and coming together and you have
a lovely piece. And it was amazingly done because
people take the time to take their raw recording
and then mix it down and then you have this wonderful
mastered piece. And people doing it all the time.
And I think it was a great time despite the fact
that we... A great time creatively. I mean, revenue
-wise, we were all screwed. we were really screwed
right but and then by the time they opened up
it was for you guys could be different but for
the music business it was worse because the bars
and clubs didn't really open yeah as fast as
we hoped for it to be so it's I think that was
creatively for creativity it was the best time
I will agree with you because there are a few
writers under our stable currently under Arcadia
and a lot of them finished their first drafts
during COVID or like just when COVID was ending.
And I think it's because they were at home all
the time and we couldn't go anywhere. There's
no distraction other than this, right? So rather
than, as you said, drive yourself nuts, you know,
why not write? And I think we had the greatest
amount of... time and productivity moving forward
during that period to really push Arcadia beyond
just two randos trying to do something. And obviously
we don't have firepower the way that... publishing
houses do we are very much a collective that
relies on our own labor and editing each other
which some people might be like oh you edit each
other why don't you like get external people
and I'm like I've got money I can do I think
anyway so yeah I am very proud of where we came
from you should be It should be. Three anthologies
and quite a few collections. What the heck, right?
I mean, better than sitting at home and sucking
thumb. I could do that, but I don't want to.
Can you give us a peek behind the curtain? Please
school me here because I'm quite stupid when
it comes to these things again. What happens
to a book between the time an author submits
it and ends up on the shelf? Oh, dissection.
Possibly death. Life, painful dissection. Then
a resurrection, maybe. Yeah. If fortunate. It
depends on the author. We've worked with quite
a few forms. So we've worked with poets. We've
worked with people like Keith that have short
stories. And then we've also worked with people
who wrote novelists, which are scaled down versions
of like the full length, like RF Kwan kind of
novel. So these are the three formats that we
work with that we have the ability to do because
I... don't have the time or energy to do something
long. I have to state this here otherwise my
collaborator will be like, why are you telling
people that we do novels? What a guy is it? So
yes, I said it. But what happens between the
manuscript and production is really that we evaluate
it and we tell the author, you know, I see potential
or, well, this is not something that we have
the capacity to handle. There are some genres
that we are more comfortable with because we
are more experienced in doing work in that area.
Confessional poetry is one of them. What poetry?
Confessional poetry. Oh, this is like healing
fiction. No, no, no, very different. This is
like one of my... This is a priest writing his
memoirs about what happens in a confessional.
Well, to be honest, it's not that far from the
truth for some of them, you know. One of my poet
friends describes it as trauma dumping, but elegant.
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I'm a little bit more
well -versed in that department, so I tend to
take more... point on that um and lynette is
better with um i think almost like with crafting
narratives and really moving stories forward
um and yeah we we sort of go back and forth it
depends on how good the draft is as well some
people come to us with like really good drafts
um and there's not that much for us to do and
then sometimes it's like we think that there
could be more and it doesn't really speak to
like incompetence there there's never been a
terrible thing that we've seen, just things that
we want to take on or we are not feeling. And
I think that for us, we are very objective with
how much time we have having day jobs as well,
but also whether we can do justice to the work.
And for Keith's book, I think that when we read
the drafts as they came in and had discussions
with him, it was very clear to the both of us
that it was a message that we enjoyed. Ooh, sounded
it. What was that? Kai, you okay, Kai? I just
had to release a cough. Sorry about that, people.
It's cool. We're not censoring that out either.
All good. Keep it in. Yeah. That, yeah, it was
very clear to us that we had like something here.
And that's basically the midpoint where you see
like drafts come in, you're starting to edit,
you're starting to give feedback. And yeah, again,
it depends on how many rounds of feedback you
do. And then you go to typesetting, creating
the covers. And then this is close to the end
game where you're like outsourcing some proofreading
to like proofreaders to go through it with a
fine -tooth comb, make sure there are no embarrassing
errors in them. Yeah, yeah. Typos, typos. Yeah.
And that can be a very long process depending
on how big the project is. Okay. Yeah. And then
after that, you're near the end of the road.
It's time to sell it. Will you send it for...
print yeah um we sell we print it locally which
can be quite um expensive yeah But the good thing
is that we do mini print runs. So we don't want
to overextend ourselves knowing that we're an
indie. So basically you'll print about maybe
this is the standard amount of copies we'll print.
See it and then put it out in the shelves. See
how it feels like going out. Yes. And then whether
or not we should print more. Yes. So I like to...
I've been told that I'm not a very good businesswoman.
Okay. But in that I'm not very... ambitious with
how many print copies we do. Some people tend
to print a little bit more, but I'm like, ah,
let's start small. There's nothing wrong with
that. I think there's prudence there. But yeah,
I like to do bite -sized print runs. If we sell
out, then obviously we are going to print more.
I would have done the same. Ah, that's good to
know. And see how popular it gets. And if there's
demand, if there's demand, then print more. Yeah.
It's about the size of it. I mean, who, I mean,
only an idiot would go like, and thinking that,
you know, your ego is telling you it's going
to sell. Yeah, I am. Don't worry about it. I
think you're doing the right thing. I try not
to let my ego get in the way. Yeah, no, no. I
really think you're doing the right thing. So
don't worry about it, man. I mean, don't bother
about what the rest are doing. Just do what you
think is right. What's the biggest myth about
writing or publishing that you'd love to bust
for our listeners and viewers? I think that if
you're coming into this with like, oh, I'm going
to sit down and I'm going to blitz through a
thousand words in a sitting. No, there is a lot
of, today I hate my life. I'm going to do 200
words and the next day I'm going to delete 180
of them. And then, you know, maybe, and that
moment where you can actually do a thousand words
might actually be something that happens once
every three months, maybe, you know, so it's
not a very, it's actually a lot of grind. There's
a lot of precision, a lot of perfection. I think
if you want to do it as a hobby, by all means,
go ahead. Then there isn't that worry of having
to make it so as perfect or as polished as you
would like. But the truth is that if you want
to get published, there is a lot of fine -tuning
and tweaking. I've spent hours deciding, do I
want to split this into two sentences or make
it one long sentence? That kind of... perfection.
And I'm reading it out to myself over and over
again, passing it to my wife. What does she think?
What do you think? And she's like, go away. I've
done this 10 times already. Leave me alone. That
kind of thing. But that kind of obsession, I
think, is needed in order to really get a work
out there. But I think it's that obsession or
that desire for perfection that really drives
you to really improve yourself and push out that
best possible work, which is... kind of like
a reflection of the best possible version of
yourself. See, there's a thing about work ethic
of an author or a writer, which is the same thing
I always talk about with anyone in the creative
field for that matter. The amount of work and
angst you go through yourself just to get your
piece right. It's the same thing as when you
have musicians on stage for dinner and performing
and everyone doesn't give a shit and they just
have their faces in their plates. Right? And
I, you know, I don't care, you know. As an MC,
I tell audiences, these people go through hours
and hours and hours of rehearsal. The least you
could do is appreciate them. And the same thing
for writers and authors. You guys go through
so much just to put this out there. Appreciate
that. AI doesn't like that, but we take time
to get it done. And that is the human trying
to be perfect. And I think there's more to appreciate
there than to just... believing in what ai can
churn out yeah isn't it yeah it's us struggling
to do to be better and i think that's something
to be applauded and to be celebrated yeah yeah
so it's it's it's yeah i mean i think that's
why i have wingspill thank you thank you yeah
really i mean i it's so much work you guys put
in you know uh the book is about reclaiming forgotten
dreams what advice would you give to someone
in my audience who has a creative dream but is
afraid to pursue it? Wow, the very cliche answer
that a lot of writers give is follow your dreams,
right? I'm not going to do that. Thank you. I'm
just going to say very objectively, if you have
a dream, you need to take intentional... prudent
steps to achieving it. I interviewed in my day
job a writer quite recently, and one of the steps
that I will share here is it's important to be
persistent, but it's also important to be kind.
And I think that I've carried that with me ever
since I thought about that conversation. And
I keep bringing it up in conversations with people.
And I say, we don't talk about that enough that
a lot of the writing community or a lot of like
the idea of chasing your dreams, it doesn't happen
in isolation. It happens with a community that
is willing to pay it forward and take the gifts
that you are given and have a transformative
experience with it. And know that like, this
is a collective experience. If I do well, It
doesn't mean anything to anyone but myself. But
if I'm able to amplify that and magnify it and
bring more people in and sort of like, this is
my community. These are my people. These are
all people who are striving towards something
that they want to achieve. That is what's important
to me. You talk about community. The writers
community in Singapore, are we united? Wow. You're
putting me in the hot seat here. Well, I can
tell you that the musician community in Singapore
is not really that united. I think that... It's
the truth. It is true to some extent. I will
be very charitable with my opinion here. I think
that some people might disagree with me. Just
be honest. Don't be charitable. Yeah, but this
is an honest opinion as well. I think that there
are sub -communities within the writer's community
where people find their people. And I have been
lucky enough to find those people that we are
on the same wavelength. We understand the value
of the work that each other does. We have respect
for the work. As for whether or not the community
is united, I think that we're united in a common
purpose in that we all want to write. Now, what
do we want to write? We may have different opinions
and everyone is entitled to those. But I encourage
people to just, like I said, just be kind. And
that's my tip for people who want to achieve
this. bigger thing that they're aspiring towards.
Okay. So, yeah. I'm going to take the Bunsen
burner from beneath your seat, okay? I'll take
it away now. Setting, setting. Well done. Well
done on the pressure. This, this, this, the future
in the next 10, what do you foresee? 10, 15 years
from today when we have the teens of today going
through the education they're going through today,
that you're an educator. Do you think that the
future will see writers still emerging in our
community when our young become adults and working
adults? I think they would, simply because based
on my experience working with all the kids that
I do, a lot of them are, in a sense, pushing
back against a lot of the traditional norms and
conventions. secretly in the back of their head,
they're not thinking about becoming doctors and
lawyers. That sort of thing that us millennials
went through, like doctor, lawyer, engineer,
that kind of thing, career path, it's not really
something that they are so obsessed over. And
I think that social media, one of the few good
things about social media is that it's sort of
opened their eyes to a lot of possibilities of
the life that they could live. So I am... crossing
my fingers and hoping that this in this one aspect
you know um that they will not feel as inhibited
by tradition or convention to you know i've got
to go and you know get a be a white collar worker
and all that before i have and only establish
myself financially then i have the right in my
30s to start picking up an instrument you know
that kind of thing i i feel like there's less
um taboo or there's less hint about it nowadays
Yeah. It's a slow journey. Slow journey. Yeah.
If I could jump in on that point, I think that
when there's a lot of talk about this AI revolution
and that it'll kill all the artists and the musicians.
I think that the world in general, human history
has been through so many revolutions where people
were like, oh, the artists are nothing, you know,
they're just serfs. We will make them grist for
the mill. And I think that that narrative has
been parroted over history, right? And yet...
Here we are sitting in a podcast studio talking
about a book. And I think that that just speaks
to the survival of like the human creative spirit
and that if people want to create something,
the words will get out there in one way, shape
or form, whatever form they take. It might not
be a physical book down the road. It might be
more audio books. There might be more digital
copies. But, you know, writing. It's going to
survive. I'm an optimist in that sense. Great,
great, great. Glad to hear that. I'll tell you
what you do, okay? Now, at this time of this
episode being shot, before your episode is released,
please watch the one before yours. Oh, no. Yeah,
watch that one. It's called, with the CEO of
Career... Oh, gosh. Kai? Career Strategy, right?
Yes. No. Jesus. Oh my, I'm so sorry, Adrian.
I've got a brain fart moment right now. Captain
Careers. Captain Careers, yeah. Captain Careers.
He's CEO of Career Agility International. I'm
so sorry, Adrian. Don't kill me for this. It
really was a brain fart moment. I'm so sorry,
Adrian. He's a great guy. I love him to bits.
And he's a career strategist, right? And a pretty
well -known guy. And we were talking about AI
and how it's going to affect jobs in the future,
right? And I can tell you one thing, man. That
thing about growing up to be a doctor, a lawyer,
forget it, they're going to be very poor. Because
the tradies will be the ones that will be making
more money. Your plumber, especially. Your electrician.
The people in trades. That's going to be the
future. Because now if agentic, not just generative
AI, agentic AI, forget it. And I'm not trying
to be the purveyor of doom and gloom here, but
the fact is, It is what it is. And somehow every
profession and every one of us have got to find
a way to pivot. I hate to use that word. Pivot.
Pivot, right? Pivot! So watching Ross doing that
in French. Pivot! Yeah. Siding behind the match.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was funny, huh? Yeah.
I love French. Anyway. Yeah, so I hope so. Please
do remain, continue remaining optimistic. It
might not serve me well in later life when I'm
like broke and begging for stuff online or selling
my, you know, stuffed toys or something like
that, you know. Future Cheryl, if you're seeing
this and cursing yourself, sorry about that.
Okay, last question. Last question, guys. What's
next for you both? Are you working on a book?
Yes, I am. I think for me, it's just a case of
you can't sit still for too long. And I think
that another thing about being a writer is that
if you feel like I have to get up and write,
it's kind of being a musician as well. Can I
keep the instrument out of your hands? If I can't.
then you are a musician. So that's, I think,
just the way I am. That's just what I do. Sales
or no sales, I don't care about the figures.
I mean, they're nice. Don't get me wrong. They're
nice. I like money. I like money. I'm going to
say that again. I like money. I like sales. Buy
the book. Go to Kino. Look at the singlet section.
We are all there. Buy it. I love that. But at
the end of the day, there has to be some... a
love for the craft that is more than just the
money. If you will turn up to a gig with three
people and you still play and sing your heart
out for it, then you're the musician. You're
an artist. So for me, I have to constantly be
working on the next project. So for me, the next
one is really about, it's kind of an extension
of this. It was sort of an idea that I had, but
I didn't quite have the ability to finish it.
So I sort of put it aside. Then I finished this.
Then I sort of jumped back to that. And it is
a bit down the healing fiction side of things
about a burnt out person, you know, traveling
to the countryside of Japan because she gets
a message from the soft toy that she lost years
ago. A burnt out person in Japan. Japan again.
So burnt out people must go to Japan. That's
where it's at. On the countryside. I would go
to Norway. Oh, Norway is brilliant. Oh man, dude,
my most favourite place in the whole damn world.
I love Norway, man. But yeah, it's a Singaporean
person that goes to the countryside, right? So
in that sense, it's like, yep, okay, it fits
Singaporean. Singaporean cannot survive in Norway
too long. They say too much bread and all that.
I just can't eat bread every day. I need to pay
not so bad. Got rice, got noodles, we'll be okay.
We'll be okay. Rice and noodles. You cannot write
a story about Singaporean finding joy in Norway.
Ken, this one. Yes, this one, this one. You can
write it. You can write it, you write it. I would
love to just, no, I would really love to just
chill out in Norway. Really. Because there was
a cafe. That's where it's at. It's all at the
cafe. Turns out it's your genre after all. We
painted a picture for you. I mean, we were living
in this lovely apartment at the end of a cul
-de -sac road in the CBD district. A very quiet
part of the CBD. Nice. And when you look below,
it was Christmas time and it was snowing. And
you had this bakery downstairs. And they had
seats downstairs and they got fur rugs on the
seats. Right? And the lights are yellow, glowing
yellow. And it's Christmas. Yeah. And it was
just fucking magical. I tell you, it was. It's
just life, right? Oh, man. I'll never forget
that. I'll never forget. And every morning you
wake up, you smell the smell of... baked croissants
and bread. It sounds like this is what's next
for you. I think he should write this book. I
think he should write this book. What about me
smelling the bakery in the morning? I mean, this
is going to be a real short story. Really, really
short story. One paragraph. Full stop. Done.
And Sharab, how about you? What's coming up for
your publishing company? Well, um... Yeah, the
collective has a few books in the works. We have
Bad Boys, Good Ends, which is the sequel to that
anthology that we talked about just now. Bad
Girls, Good Ends. No, Good Girls, Bad Ends. Bad
Boys, Good Ends. Well, clever. That is, we are
going to announce it down the road and more soon,
we have like a K -pop thing coming out. Oh, come
on. It's called Killing Part. It's a novella.
Okay. And I will say, don't knock it. It's actually
really, really good. I'm not knocking it. But
just hear K -pop and I go, oh, right. Okay. Yeah,
it's not just about K -pop. It's actually what
I would call a story about dreams. How about
graphic novels? Do you guys do anything like
that? It's not really my market. Like I said,
I do what I think I have the capacity to edit.
On my personal front, I am writing more poetry.
I have books out there that my friends would
rather I talk about. They're like, talk about
your books. And I'm like, sure. Okay. Slide it
in. Yeah. One of them is called American Dream.
It's about my time working with the Yanks. With
the Yanks, yeah. And also my experiences with
the people in America as well. And the second
is Bites, which is about life and love. Yeah.
So I'm working on a third thing called Seeing
Ghosts. That sounds fun. It is. No, no. It's
a fiction or what? Poetry. or poetry about seeing
ghosts uh it's titled seeing ghosts but when
it's about ghosts Got to slide the teaser in
there. Yeah, yeah. She's not going to spill the
ink on this one yet. Yeah, okay. You're writing
that one now? Yes, I'm writing that one now.
But American Dream, is it published? Yes, it's
out there in Kinokuniya as well. I think that
it didn't do too bad, yes. And I'm also working
on a longer novel, I think, that won't go through
Arcadia. It's going to be, it's too long for
our editors to handle that. All right, all right.
And what's that one? It's kind of like, a fantasy
thing I call it my magnum opus which is an ambitious
thing to say about something that hasn't been
written yet fingers crossed no no don't worry
about it I'm pretty sure you get that you get
that going and conclude that anyway right and
put it out there in the shelves yeah So, okay,
I wish you the best too, Cheryl. Thank you. And
I wish you too, Keith, all the best on your next
book, especially. Keep in touch. And thanks for
being here on the show. Thank you. Thanks for
having us. Not at all. My pleasure, guys. Just
to let you all know, you can go to Kinokuniya
and to the singlet section and get a copy of
Lost Things for yourselves, as well as you can
go to... atelierarcadia .com slash shop slash
shop and get yourselves a copy too I would also
like to slide in there a shout out to the owner
of Book Bar at Duxton Road who also stocks our
books and is very supportive of us please support
local bookstores they too like the cafes need
help so head down to the Book Bar along Duxton
Road and grab yourselves a copy At the same time.
I mean, either way. All the options are available
for you. Idea is bring home a copy of Lost Things.
It's a hell of a read. Okay, everybody. This
is Chris Hansen. Thank you for joining us for
the first episode of Ink Spill on the Chris Hansen
Conversation. And coming very close to the end
of Season 6. A couple more episodes to go before
we... Take a break. A much -needed one. It's
been a hell of a long season so far. But still,
come back next week, Friday, same time, same
place, same channel. Until next time, everybody,
stay safe. Bye -bye. Bye -bye. Bye. The Chris
Hansen Conversation. Real talk, no filters, and
a growing community of more than 90 ,000 subscribers
across ASEAN, right here from Singapore.