Our guest today is a man who quite literally
built his career from the ground up. He is an
architect of modern Singaporean nightlife, a
master of reinvention, and a leader who embodies
the spirit of dedication. His journey began not
in a boardroom, but at the very bottom in 1991,
cutting lemons as a bar bat at a discotheque
called Fire. From those humble beginnings, he
rose through the ranks with a philosophy of sheer
hard work, patience and doing the right things
without cutting corners. His long and arduous
path took him from Singapore to the vibrant nightlife
scenes of Melbourne and Shanghai, where he earned
a reputation for turning struggling businesses
into success stories. But his most profound act
of stewardship came at the helm of an iconic
Singaporean institution, Harry's. For eight years
as a former CEO, He took this classic brand and
transformed it, expanding its footprint across
Asia and solidifying its identity as a beloved
true blue Singaporean neighbourhood bar. Under
his leadership, Harry's won numerous prestigious
awards, cementing his position as a market leader
and a cultural touchstone. And in the spirit
of our show, he never lost sight of music. He
was a guardian of Harry's deep -rooted jazz heritage.
actively supporting local musicians through virtual
concerts during the pandemic and formed partnerships
that gave a stage to a new generation of artists.
He is a veteran of the industry, a visionary
who revitalized a legacy brand and a dedicated
champion for the entire nightlife community.
What would be your top three moves to get more
customers to the door, solve the transport problem,
and deal with high operating costs. What would
you do? First, I need the crowd. I need to identify
where this crowd is coming from and what are
they really after, right? Because if you're just
there to eat and drink, you can go anywhere.
If you're there for the DJ, fine. But if the
DJ is not there every day, then what? There's
something that goes deeper than that. What is
it? Before we begin the show, here is an important
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Shure merchandise with your purchases. Now, let's
start the show. Hi everyone, you've heard my
introduction. Welcome back to the Chris Hansen
Conversation. I have with me the man for the
hour, my guest, Nason Xavier Thyagarajan. Welcome
to the studio, Nason. Thank you very much, Chris.
Nice to be here. Hey, thanks for being here,
man. And it's my tribute to you in this tribute
show. Thank you so very much for supporting nightlife
in Singapore and especially music. Most welcome.
What would we do without music? Well, tell that
to a whole lot of people here in Singapore, man.
Nobody seems to give a shit. What do you think?
I think we've got a lot of strong followers.
Not enough of them. And a lot of people that
forget what the power of music is all about.
I think even something as simple as a retail
shop or when you walk around and there are a
lot of places I go around and I say, you know
what's missing? Music in the background. And
having it live in entertainment spots or in live
shows, even in theatre or in any form, it brings
out a lot. You see the passion of the artist,
even if it's a cover song. And music connects
you. You hear a song, you think of something
in the past. And then it connects you. So it's
actually very powerful. The saying goes, the
one thing that never dies is music. Right. What
do you think? Do you really think? You think
people, you said just now, interestingly, you
said people may have forgotten. Why do you think
that has happened here? I'm really not sure.
When I look at the younger generation, my kids
as well, they listen to music. They do. But I
guess it's also very convenient. to access music.
And with TikTok and Spotify and everything else,
sometimes they're hearing things in snippets,
nice and quick. You know, back in the day, and
I'm sure you'll appreciate it, right? You got
to get your record out or your CD out. You know,
you got to press play, finishes, you got to flip
the disc around. Then you take coconut water,
you clean the fella properly. Correct. So I think
the appreciation and the journey. before you
listen to music. I think that's missing. And
I don't know, personally, maybe that's one of
the things I think where the appreciations lacked
a little. Yeah, very interesting because it's
as if making things so convenient to digital,
convenience actually could have killed it. I
hope it's not killed yet. But yeah, that's my
point. Besides giving people ADHD. That's my
view. The convenience brings the fun of the journey
in music and a lot of things sometimes. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Good point, man. You're the first
guy to actually talk about it this way. Yeah,
it's an interesting point of view. No wonder
you're called the modern architect for Singapore's
nightlife, man. I don't think I'll call myself
that. I've definitely dedicated a lot of my time,
actually my entire career to now, to nightlife
in different countries as well, but especially
in the last... maybe say 10 years very strongly
in Singapore with my affiliation with the Singapore
Nightlife Association. I still stay there as
the advisor till year end this year and I'm only
a phone call away and the guys that are running
it today, capable people and the committee. they
know that I'm always just a phone call away.
So I'll always stay vested. Well, that's good
to know, man. That's good to know that you're
still staying vested. Yes. Let's talk about you.
Let's talk about... We started the show anyway,
so we need to talk about you. Okay. Let's talk
about your journey. You started as a bartender
in 1991. Actually, I lied. It was a barbeque.
You know what's a barbeque? So the barbeque is
the guy that can't pour, that is not allowed
to pour the alcohol. So what you do is you wash
the glasses, you clear the trash. Holy shit.
You cut the lemons. Yes, yes. You set the bar
up, you clean the bar up. So you don't have barbeques
these days. It's more an American sort of term
for bartenders back then. That's the entry level.
But I didn't last very long. I moved up to bartender
quite quickly. Yeah, so you're right. Started
Fire Disco 1991. Fire Disco. Yeah, that's it,
man. It was in the introduction, by the way.
When I saw fire, I got, whoa, excited. So Dean
Shahul was your boss? He was, but he didn't know
me back then because he was too high up the ranks.
And as I just told you, right, I was the bar
back. But yeah, he was. The bar back to being
who you became. Wowee. Not too bad. I'm quite
happy with it. You said in some interview that
you weren't academically inclined. Where were
you from and which school? Primary school? Well,
let's talk about both, primary and secondary.
Okay, primary school, I was in a school called
Jalan Kayu Primary School. Oh, wow. It doesn't
exist anymore because the TV cuts across it to
connect the north to the east, right? If I have
to quote the year, if I'm not mistaken, it was
1989, they demolished the school, I think. Okay.
I finished there in 86. Okay. 88, 89, they demolished
it. That's just, do you know where the Selita
Air Base or the old Selita Camp is? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Yeah, so we were living inside there, renting
then. As a kid, you know, I came here from Malaysia
at four years old in 1978. Okay. And ironically
enough, my dad's Malaysian, mom's Singaporean.
And they can't get a HTV or any assistance because
he was Malaysian. Right. So that was the cheapest
private estate you could rent back then in 78.
Inside Seletor Air Base, right? So from there,
my primary school was Jalakai Primary School.
How about secondary school? We moved to Ishun
and then I went to Ahmad Ibrahim Secondary. Wow.
Yeah. What year was that, man? I started there
1987. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know someone from
there? My wife was from there. Oh, okay. Okay.
Okay. What year was she? Can you recall? She's
kind of, I think she's a little younger than
you. It's just you left school and you went into
Ahmad again, what year? 87, right? I went in
87. In secondary one. Secondary one. So you're
kind of, you're younger than me. Yeah. A little
older than my wife. So actually, actually, if
I went in in 87, and here comes the academically
inclined, right? I stayed in secondary school
for six years. Oh, wow. I repeated my sec three
once. Because the school needed you so badly,
man. The school doesn't know I exist today. Yeah,
yeah. So anyone younger within three, three,
four years would still, would maybe have heard
of you. Well, I could have asked my wife. Okay,
so you went into that. And what happened? You
spent six years, you said, not academically inclined.
And somewhere I read that you dropped out. Well,
actually, I finished secondary school after my
second attempt at O -levels, right? Then I went
back to fire. I was working because I was working
part -time as well, right? So when you were in
school, you were working in fire? The second
O -levels. Yes, because after the first O -Levels,
during school break, that's the bar back part.
And then after that, I said I had to repeat it.
So back then again, and then I was just doing
part -time for a while. Then after O -Levels,
didn't know what to do. Had to wait for your
results, right? Prelims weren't so good. So the
first three months, so I went back to, went to
FIRE full -time. Then I got a letter that I was
accepted to Selita Institute, another school
that doesn't exist today. Okay. It's near Upper
Thompson Road, towards the tail end when you're
reaching Mandai, around there. That was A -levels
for three years, but I stayed there for a year.
I passed that year, but in year two, I decided
to quit school. Not a good choice back then,
but yeah, so that's what happened. When you quit
school, the decision for you to quit school,
was because... This is live, huh? Yeah, it is
live. No, it's not live. It's recorded, but...
Okay, for anyone... We're not going to edit.
For anyone in school, don't follow in my footsteps.
I'm telling you, this is really funny. Now, was
it funny back then because my mother wasn't happy
and definitely my older sister wasn't happy?
Pretty much, I got some disciplinary action in
a school football game and the sports council
banned me from playing. in the school games.
And I couldn't represent my school anymore. And
I said, well, if I can't play soccer, I don't
want to study. That's the reason. That's the
truth. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thanks for sharing
that. No problem. That's fun to know. Actually,
this is the first time I'm sharing it. Oh, thanks,
man. Up to that length. The story usually cuts
somewhere earlier, but yeah. Okay, that's cool.
You're human. You're human. I mean, okay, you
were that guy. You were that guy that got into
a fight, probably. He said, fight. I can more
or less surmise that it was a fight. It was not
a good tackle in the game, so that's... Fight,
right? Okay, during a football game, and then
you got barred by the Football Association, and
you said, screw this. If I can't play football,
fuck it. I'm leaving school. And you got out.
And then you decided to go to work. Yes. And
you went back to fire. No. Okay, what did you
do? Okay. Then I didn't go back to fire. Fire
was tough back then in the 90s, you know. I think
it was the only club that could have like 3 ,000
people. Right, right, right. Pretty much packed
one. every day. Oh yeah, man. I think Energy
was playing six days a week. Oh yeah, man. Love
Hunters was covering Sunday or Monday. So I thought,
I'm sure I can make, and they weren't paying
me that great as well. So I thought, I'm sure
I can make a little bit more money and not work
too hard. I ended up at Studio Bakers. Studio
Bakers, yeah. Pacific Plaza. Oh yeah, Pacific
Plaza. It's dead now anyway. Yeah, I'm not sure
if it's a... Is it a club now? No, there's no
freaking club, man. It looks like a boutique
or something. Yeah, I'm not sure what's up there.
Yeah, that was early 1994. It was so cool, wasn't
it? You stand along the corner of Orchard Road
where Hyatt is, the Marriott, and then you look
across Shore Centre, behind Shore Centre, and
you look up there, you see Studebaker. What's
the... Freaking hot, man. Yeah, coolest club.
Yeah, like you said, across the other side at
Lucky Plaza, you look across Neon City, you look
upstairs and you see Sparks. Yes. Oh, man. Singapore's
rocking. Yeah. But even clubs that you could
not see, right? You talked about Marriott earlier,
right? So Fabrice. Fabrice's, yeah, downstairs.
Then it became Bar None. Yes, yes. I was in the
damn queue every freaking Friday night, man.
For Fabrice or for Bar None? Bar None. Oh, okay.
Yeah, because even Fabrice back then, it was,
you can say higher. Yeah, world music. Not so
affordable. And the late Fabrice had this. There's
this jaguar, right, or leopard painted on his
car. I didn't get to see his car because by the
time I finished work, it would be like four years.
I only went to Fabrice's for the girls. What
else is there besides music? No, no, no. The
world music thing didn't really do it for me.
It was the girls, man. Nothing to hide. We were
all young. Okay, so you went to Studebaker's.
What were you doing there? I was a bartender
there. And it was one of the hardest jobs to
get as a bartender. In Studebaker's, right? Yeah,
they were very strict with the whole process.
I don't know, they took about almost a month
or two. This is a bartender. These days, you
go for a job for a bartender, they hire you in
one hour. And then I got it back then, 1994.
Yeah, I think my salary was about maybe 20 %
more than the average bartender. So I was earning
$1 ,000 a month. Average bartender would be around
$900 to $1 ,000 around there. So $200 back then.
I said, okay, sure. And I stayed there all the
way till November because I had to join the army.
NS came in in December. So it didn't, Didn't
go a full year, but pretty much, yeah, 94 was
there. Okay, so NS came in, you went in, served
your time, two years, two and a half years? Two
and a half. Two and a half, like me. Yeah. We
all get out of there, 36 months ago, one more
stripe, right? Yes. I didn't want the stripe,
you know. I also didn't want the damn stripe,
you know. My CEO said, no choice, this is all
computer generated, you have to go. Yeah. Then,
okay, you served two and a half, you came out,
what happened next? Before I came out, by the
way, my NS time was, I hated it for the first
three months. Yeah, who doesn't? Then I loved
it all the way. Yeah, me too. Right after I finished
reservist. Correct, same thing. You know, so
I'm very patriotic in that way. And even when
doing reservist, some of the soldiers would be
like, because I was overseas and we'll get there.
So I didn't get my same unit all the time. And
they're always younger than me and they always
thought I was a regular. this is how you should
wear the uniform and this is how you should meet
the army. But I really thoroughly enjoyed my
NS time. Likewise. I left early 1997. Same thing
again. What do I do? You know, I could stand
in a mall, sell vacuum cleaners or electronics
or do something in sales. I can talk. So, then
a friend of mine called and said, listen, we
need someone, you know, bar supervisor level.
to work at this place. I'm not sure. We talked
about Sloughbakers earlier. So Nick, right next
to it, this place called Mambo Kings. Okay. It's
the, right on Scotts Road. Yeah. Used to be the
old DFS. Ah, okay. Now it's some exhibition hall.
Oh God, I don't even know. I don't even care
because Otter Road is so dead. So Mambo Kings
back then, you had Fabrice and then you had...
It was the old Tropicana area. A long time ago,
Tropicana. Yes, I think... around there. There
was Mambo Kings, then there was Max Speed, another
sort of like arcade, sort of game bar. So right
on the main road. You know where that, what hotel
is that called? Is it called Crown? Crown Prince?
That's the other side. Opposite that, not opposite.
Goodwood Park. No, not Goodwood. Hyatt. Opposite
Hyatt is? Oh, Holiday Inn, Park View. Not Park
View, Holiday Inn. Okay, so if that's the Holiday
Inn, then... If you're standing there, just tuck
it away at the corner, then Mumble Kings used
to be there. So I went in as a bar supervisor,
worked for them. They had Mumble Kings. I was
doing some shifts at another bar that they owned
called Escobar. That was in Boat Quay. Yeah,
Escobar. Yeah, 97. Then I stayed with them for
a year. And then I got another call. So again,
reference. some young owners were coming together
to open an acid jazz bar. This bar was called
HUBAR, H -U, apostrophe U. The old St. Joseph's
Institution on Ras Basah. Yeah, Ras Basah. So
my job was to be a bar consultant to build it
up. And the funny part is that three good friends,
great idea of what they wanted the bar, but never
agree on anything. So they decided, let's hire
someone. So he can decide. So I had the job dancing
between three shareholders and getting it done.
But I tell you, when we opened in 99, we were
the talk of the town. We had Ferraris, Lamborghinis
lined up down Waterloo Street. It was a small
place, 1 ,200 square feet. But we'd pack it out,
a couple of hundred every night. Here's my question.
Yeah. Two, as a matter of fact, it's two -pronged.
Okay. One is that, yeah, after NS, you could
have ended up selling, like you said, selling
back. electronics, you know, for the Harvey Norman,
the workers, everything, right? But then again,
you still got drawn back to the bar business.
That's one, that's one. Okay. Secondly, then
this thing became bar supervisor, then from bar
supervisor, you went up and up and up. And then
you landed this thing as a consultant. Correct.
And that was your first run. First run, 1999
as a consultant, yes. Yeah. Now, between what
I'm trying to drive at. 99, I was 25 years old,
Chris. Yeah. Not too bad for a consultant. Bloody
freaking brilliant at 25. But what I'm trying
to drive at is, is that how, I mean, you could
have ended up doing something else, but you ended
up in this. You made a decision, was it? Do you
think you made a decision because you were passionate?
You've always been passionate for this. from
a young age or was it life just drove you that
way actually okay uh i won't answer one or two
but i'll just tell you i won't answer it exactly
is what i meant okay it was definitely not the
passion cocktail wasn't out yet okay tom cruise
wasn't a bartender yet that was much later yeah
or maybe okay anyways it could have been later
i guess it's two things right I knew my entry
level salary was going to be on the low. Okay.
And if anyone was going to give me a little bit
more than what the usual was, it would be the
bar seat. Okay. Right? Because I've got fire
under my belt. I've got studio makers under my
belt, even though not long. The CV looks pretty
good. I mean, for a bartender, back then we just
go and talk. They make some calls and see whether
this guy is lying or not, right? CVs. Yeah. So
I had that. And the other thing is, whatever
I do, I always want to know what I'm doing. If
I don't know what I'm doing, I tend to, okay,
I won't say I will stay away from it, but I'll
definitely go and research and I want to know
about it. Of course, I have to have interest
in it as well. So going back when I thought no
choice, I said, let's just try it for a year
or two, better than not working or struggling,
and then see what I want to do next. But every
time I worked, I just knew more and more. And
I'll tell you why I knew more and more. Because
I don't like not knowing, you know, as a bar
supervisor, right? So the owners will call you
and like, oh, your cost of goods is too high.
COG, okay. Yeah, your COGS, cost of goods sales,
okay? Or COS for some people. What the hell are
they talking about? But I just keep quiet. You
know your bar work. You know how to get the money
in the tail, make the customer happy. But what
goes on behind? I forgot her name, but I got
to go find out. So I knew my accountant would
stay back every Monday night, you know, to do
her paperwork. So I would buy her dinner so that
I could sit with her in the office for about
an hour. And why? Because I know that the owners
would get updated from finance, right? Right.
So I'm like, what is she putting on this piece
of paper? What is this COGS? What are the owners
looking at? But why? Why were you so interested?
You said you wanted to know. I want to answer
them when they ask me a question. I wanted to
know the answer as far as the bar is concerned.
Right. You want to take ownership of it. Yeah,
I mean, you say you're doing something and if
someone asks you about something that... Not
everyone's like you, you know. Well, maybe I'm
lucky. I'm lucky to be a capo in that sense.
And I think the other driving factor, number
one, is not to look bad when you say you're doing
something and you don't know what it is. Right.
So I had to catch up. And number two is it's
the only way you're going to get paid more, right?
If you know more as time goes. Right. So I spent
my time, I spent a lot of extra time trying to
know the bar business at the back end. Okay.
Right? Right up to if the business has got no
money. How do we finish the bar? We need renovation.
So I can do some masonry work. If the plumber
comes in and tells me how much to fix a pipe,
I'll know if he's lying. The electrician, anything
else that would affect the business I run, even
at a bar supervisor level, I took that couple
of years to quickly learn as much. And then the
consultancy thing came in. So to learn, you need
to make friends. I need to make friends with
the plumber when he came to fix something or
else he's not going to teach me. It's just like,
I'm going to fix and go, who's this young kid?
Suppliers, contractors. So as a consultant, whatever
contacts I made in the few years, I brought it
all in together with that knowledge and ultimately
had to build that bar. And it helped. It definitely
helped. Okay, so when you were given that first
gig as a consultant, you went in there on a scale
of 1 to 10. Yes, go. Having whatever you've learned
already at that time, finding out about so many
things, being the guy that just says, look, listen,
I've got to know this shit because I need to
be able to represent myself that I know my shit
well enough. Yep. With all these, at that time,
on a scale of 1 to 10, what was your confidence
level of going into your first gig as a consultant?
Okay, this is going to be a two -prong answer.
The first answer to your question, 3 upon 10.
3 upon 10, right? Because it's not just the bar,
but a whole venue, right? So 3 upon 10. And also
3 upon 10 because I was the first employee, right?
I had to build a team. Versus whatever experience
I had, I always joined a team. The second part
of that answer is I was quite confident to take
the job because the owners were looking for a
few basics. Customer service. Training the bar
guys and the service guys. They want top -notch
service. And put the bar together with the menu
and things like that. That I can do nine upon
ten. So the three upon ten is all the other things
that The owners didn't know that I required to
know in order to pull this whole thing off. But
did you know? Well, 3 upon 10 on those things,
right? The little things that I know, right?
I'm sure they could have found someone with a
9 upon 10 on that part. Yeah. But they were focused
on the people and the front -facing part with
the customer. So that part, I was confident 9
upon 10. So I guess they didn't know exactly
what they were looking for, but it worked out
well. I didn't stay long, only a year, and I'll
get to why only a year, but we did well. their
return of investment was under a year. I think
I had about like maybe eight or 10 bartenders,
another 12 on the floor. And it was rocking.
It was good. It was fun, fun days. And like I
said, I was still in mid twenties, right? So
yeah, so a young team and we did very well. It's
a pity. It lasted about, I don't know, six, seven
years. And then later on it closed. I only stayed
there a year because I had another opportunity
that came along. And I said, I had to take it.
Okay. Right. Which is what I did. And that's
why after a year, I stepped down from Uber. I
loved it a fair bit. And then I had to go on
to my next venture. Okay. Before I get to that
venture. Yeah. This phrase, sheer hard work,
seemed to be popping up everywhere online when
it comes to you. Oh. When it comes to me, okay.
So the school dropout to CEO eventually. You
say it's all about sheer hard work. If I were
to ask you the toughest lesson you've learned
on the job that a classroom could never teach
you? Wow. I think the most important or what
I would say the most valuable. then you won't
get out of the classroom, right? It's really
doing the work. So the human connection, the
classroom teaches you how you get from A to B.
It doesn't tell you two or three fools will be
blocking you along the way. One guy won't show
up for work and you still have to deliver. It
doesn't tell you all that. right uh so basically
for me it would be the reality of the outside
world and and just just work related it's really
about people managing people working with people
and sometimes being managed by people that's
that's really really i i i don't know if they
teach it in classes and then i bet that's why
a lot of uh learning institutes have uh night
classes for for adults and and how they try to
Bring case studies in. Yeah, they invite guys
like you to give lectures as well. Yeah, I've
done a few at SMU as well. I'm pretty sure. I'm
pretty sure, yeah. So I think the classroom doesn't
prepare you for that human connection to get
something done. Okay. So I think that would be
one very, very strong point in my view. Okay,
thank you. But I think I know why you left that
job after a year because you had another offer.
You went to Melbourne, right? Yes. I thought
so. What happened there? With who? 99, I was,
well, I like to use the word lucky. Anyways,
there were two partners in Australia. One was
Singaporean and Aussie partner or Indonesian
Singaporean. Anyways, they acquired a club. Right.
Right. And the club was big, right? 20 ,000 square
feet. Oh, man. So we're talking five bars. At
any one point in time, full house would be about
2 ,000. So it was a huge project. And I've only
been a year into this consulting of 1 ,200 square
feet bar. Our full house is like 300 people.
But high level, of course, in terms of spend.
So I guess they wanted a Singaporean. And same
thing, right? They wanted someone to just build
the bars. Okay. Right? Because with the AV and
contractors, architects, you know, things like
this, you can always get someone to come in.
Right. And they just, I guess, because a lot
of the money back then in the 90s in Australia,
some places, now it's mainly digital and before
then it was all cash business. Yeah. Right? And
nobody buys a bottle or a jug. There's no such
thing. It's over -the -counter sales. Buy the
glass. So I think they wanted a Singaporean to
set up the bar. and then to run the bar team.
So I got that call and I said, well, okay, I've
only got one suitcase, couple of clothes, some
of my stationery, put it all in and said, okay,
I'll take it a consultancy job for a year to
build a club, to just build the bars. Yeah. And
then the job finishes after a year. So it's a
consultancy contract, but Melbourne doesn't come
all the time, right? Yeah. And back then, It
was not so accessible to travel. I didn't grow
up rich, right? Believe it or not, my first flight,
I was 21 years old going to Taiwan. The army
sent me, right? Summer. Yeah. My kids, before
their diapers can come off, they're flying all
over the world. Yeah. So I took the opportunity.
I was young. Didn't matter if the contract was
only a year and I packed my bags and went. So
you went there again. Yes. From 1 ,300 square
feet. Yes. Consulting for that. Yeah. Two, consulting
now for this huge monster in Melbourne. Overseas,
confidence level. Yeah. Going there. Scale of
1 to 10. Same thing. Two parts to the answer.
First part, 3 upon 10. Actually, no. 2 upon 10.
2 upon 10, even worse. Yeah. Going to a foreign
country. Yeah. Right? So... Obviously, they're
English speaking. It's fine. But you're talking
about culture, recruiting, then developing a
team to listen to you. And you are going in in
your mid -20s. And I didn't know what the bar
culture was like in Melbourne back then. I mean,
I've been for a holiday, short ones here and
there, but never really seen it, right? And the
funny part is, I was so excited to go, I didn't
ask them what was the size of the club. How many
bars do you need me to build? Really? I thought
you're coming. I'm in Huba, right? I thought
you're going to make me. They said club, right?
I thought a small club would put a big bar in
there. What's so hard? I've done fires, steelmakers,
how to operate. So I said, yeah, no problem.
So confidence, a low on culture and things like
that. But also confidence high that I know I
can do it straight after Huba because I didn't
know then the size of what I was going to do
until I landed. I wasn't so good at Google and
to search pictures. Who told you? They told you
the size of the place. What was your reaction?
I was like, bugger, I got cheated. I would have
gone, oh, fuck. But, you know, I think I went
straight to work. When I got there, the architects
weren't happy I came along because I changed
all their drawings and their plans. Wow, ballsy
man. There were five bars and the architects
were in their late 50s and I was this mid -20s
guy telling them, no, you can't build it like
this. Using my pencil and ruler and they're using
AutoCAD with their computers and trying to get
this going. And then, because same thing, not
many employees. There was a Singaporean, ops
manager jackie jackie lawrence jackie shout out
to you jackie she's eurasian lives around see
me okay we'll meet we'll meet i'll bring you
to to meet her at uh at mel's one day okay sure
man yeah so it was only me and her and and we
didn't have to build the team till the club was
ready right okay yeah so then i just pretty much
say jackie you plan the menu things like that
anything come back to me i had to look into the
construction right so the drawings the builders
uh the av setup you know and it's so funny we
never had strikes in singapore right strike hey
we're all the workers or union strike so no one's
working today i said we're gonna finish the work
then i i realized that oh okay they're not gonna
listen to this kid right right uh and i don't
go around shouting you know i i i try to do things
in a pragmatic way and and i try to connect with
people to get the job done but like i said right
what they don't teach you in school is sometimes
all your skills, you can't negotiate out of one,
two people. That's life. That happens. And then
you got to figure a way out of it or around it.
So I went to the owners and said, listen, I need
this money every Friday. Okay. Sausage sizzle.
I'll put a barbecue outside in the car park and
esky free beers for all the workers. 3pm we'll
start. So every Friday they knew for the last
two hours, three to five, they didn't have to
work. Free hot dogs and beer. And after that,
you can see how fast the clubs get. Wow. After
that, every day at work, hey, how are you going,
man? Okay, good, good, good. And everything gets
done. So it was tough because full scale at that
size. So again, I welcomed it. I didn't complain.
And when you're learning something, sometimes
you don't know you're learning. But when I look
back at it, I was like, wow, I learned a lot
more than... than anything else. And that set
me up for quite a fair bit. Where do you see
your career going at that stage? Wow. At that
stage, I only had a one -year contract. Yeah.
We got the club going. Right. The Knights were
going well. Right. I worked well with the promoters
as well. So, you know, we had Asian nights. It's
quite racist and cultural in terms of how they
label the nights. Asian nights, all Asian. You
know, African nights, all African. And Aussie
nights, all... Yeah. All Aussies. Yes. You get
where I'm going. And the clubs, how they operate
in Australia is mainly promoter run. back then,
right? So if you're the venue operator, you manage
your bars, you got your venue security and everything,
but the promoters bring the people. So I got
along well and worked well with all the promoters,
different cultures, backgrounds. Yeah, so after
one year, you know, the owner was nice enough
to give me a GM position for that venue. And
I stayed another two years with them. So overall,
three years at Salt. Wow. It's called Salt? Salt.
Sound and light technology. So now I know Nathan
is great at consulting, starting up bars, clubs.
But we also know that Nathan is known for fixing
up struggling businesses like Le Fabrique in
Shanghai. Yes. What happened there? Okay, so...
After three years in Melbourne, I stayed another
three doing other things, right? Events, clubs
and everything. So six years was the whole journey
there. And then, you know, I told my wife, I
said, okay, let's leave Melbourne. The scene's
struggling. But you got married already by then.
Yeah. And the scenes, we got married here, but
we were dating. And I said, let's leave because,
you know, the scene was struggling. And it was...
It was tough with getting proper jobs and salaries
and things like that. So I said, let's go back
to Singapore. And I didn't find anything here.
I just packed up and we came back here. We got
here in 2005. Unfortunately, no one's heard of
me in the last six years. And all my interviews
were with... people who are either my rank or
my capability or maybe even lower. So I didn't
know the owners direct to get a senior position.
And I was lucky enough that someone introduced
an owner, Singaporean lady that owns a club in
Shanghai that she's invested in and hasn't been
doing well for the last one year. And same thing.
trusted a Singaporean to be around. And so I
packed my bags and went to Shanghai. I knew this
would be a short gig because when I went in there,
I told her, you're not going to recover your
full investment. So maybe perhaps the best way
is let's get the business going, make it look
good because it has to be good. And then you
find a buyer that's willing to pay X. you know
and then that could be the way out and yeah and
uh funnily enough luckily enough i completed
that journey in a year and she actually sold
it she actually sold it so yeah i went into la
fabric it was a concept uh created in paris and
then they had one in tokyo and then it came to
shanghai so it's a high -end restaurant that
turns into an ultra lounge sort of club you know
that that's sort of a scene right uh maybe paris
tokyo it could work transport uh Weather, I don't
know. But in Shanghai, it was too difficult.
It was too difficult to get the fine dining scene
going and then the DJs coming in and dance club
scene. So we rebranded La Fabrique to just Fabrique,
right? Turned it into a pure club, right? Straight
from Melbourne, right? So pure club. Ran Fridays
and Saturdays as the club. And the other days,
it became an event space because it was built
in a factory. And back then in Shanghai in 2005,
a lot of events were coming, right? Porsche,
Montblanc, Johnny Walker, Chivas Regal. So we
could make a good business out of it, just running
two club nights and an event space. And yeah,
we just curated the year in that way. And then
it went well until they sold it. Okay. Yeah.
How do you see all these things? I mean, you've
got to have a little knack. to really foresee
how you turn something struggling like this.
Like you saw that, why don't we just, you know,
change the name, call it Fabrique. That's one,
the brand. Secondly, oh, it's a warehouse space.
Maybe we can sell events. How do you come up
with all these concepts, ideas? Well, that's,
okay, nobody's ever asked me that. I don't think
I've got a... Like I said, I didn't have Google
or chat GPT back then. Exactly why I want to
check your brain. I think it's about really studying
the ground. When you look at the night economy
and at night with bars, restaurants and everything
in any city, any country, right? You just got
to align yourself with the right people and then
they bring you around and you see what's going
on. My first three months was all just seeing.
Every night I was out. Fact -finding missions.
Yes. I didn't care if the club was Chinese, if
it was an event space, restaurant, anywhere with
the... cool kids hang out okay where do the locals
go right different tiers of locals in terms of
spend uh expats uh tourists so just try to figure
all that out and then looking at the location
looking what we have uh that's why sometimes
i always say right if anyone asked me if i gave
you a million dollars would you build the best
restaurant or the best club right and i said
there's no best there's no best it depends on
It depends on so many things. So it's really
knowing the ground, even though you're not from
there, talking to the right people, getting the
right feedback, putting the numbers together.
And then a lot of people try things, see how
it goes. But there's a lot of danger in there
if it involves money. So I try to say, okay,
we'll try this. If it doesn't work, I've got
plan B, plan C. But the end result is still the
end result. And if we need to alter along the
way, we're still altering just to maneuver, but
the end result still stays. So I try to map it
out in that sense so that if it goes well, I
don't become lazy and say, oh, it's going well.
Or if it's bad, then I start saying, okay, now
the club's got to be a restaurant or the restaurant's
got to be a cafe or just start. pulling ideas
out because the industry is vast right so so
uh i don't know it just comes to me and i do
my research i don't get everything right i get
a lot of things wrong as well but the wrongs
sometimes uh can be counted by the right so it's
really how quickly you react and then you have
to be on the ground to know it's not like a full
-time desk job even though i prefer desk job
now but back then yeah that's important because
i just want to find out i want to Tap your brain.
And for my viewers and listeners to also discover
how does a person see something like this and
go, oh, is there a formula? But you said it right.
I mean, you got on the ground. You went to discover
fact -finding missions. You know, what works
and what doesn't. Yeah. Thinking back on your
career from Cafe Del Mar to the Big Ideas Group,
what's one contribution you're most proud of?
that set you up for all the success you've had?
I guess the opportunity for all the past owners
to at least give me the job. You keep using the
word luck, you know, I can't stand it. You said
luck twice. In both of your opportunities, Shanghai
and Melbourne, man, you said luck. Yeah. Well,
sometimes it comes knocking, right? So you then
think luck, right? Yeah, I think the opportunity
to at least secure the job from the owners, that's
definitely appreciated. And then the people that
made the reference and made the contact. To be
honest, these days, you have to be sure when
you refer someone. And most people are referring
my character. They're not referring my work.
I mean, you're not there to really see, right?
So the reference of a person. my personal view
is where I think it is. And of course, you can
put two and two together. The person working
there for a year or two, it looks good, must
have something to do with it. That part is simple,
but it's also the integrity to get the job done
and things like that. So I landed Del Mar because
when Shanghai got sold, They had no job for me
and didn't want to give me a nice fat bonus to
relax after my one year of hard work. So I made
a deal. I said, you get me three job interviews
in Singapore because I want to go back. And out
of the three, one materialized and Café Del Mar,
which was under the Life Brands, the MOS group
back then. And yeah, so I had the honor to manage
Balcony Bar, which was at Heeran back then in
Orchard Road. actually build Cafe Del Mar. So
now I had a project of building a beach club,
putting a pool in the sand of a beach, getting
everything done outdoors in that sense. So it
was a great opportunity for that one year when
I was at Cafe Del Mar because that construction
and setup, it was a once in a lifetime and it
went well. Went flying off the roof from day
one when they started. It was fun. It was fun.
But... My daughter got born and I was so happy.
My oldest girl, Mila, she's 18 now. And I was
coming back 5, 6 o 'clock in the morning. And
even on off days, we were overwhelmed. We were
understaffed. We were doing sales over a million
dollars a month for a beach club back in 2007.
So it was very tiring. They realized it was...
Such a good business that half of Clarkie, because
we had a lot of bars and clubs in Clarkie, they
put half the manpower force into Sentosa to get
that going. So when my daughter was born, I said,
you know, I got to relook the nightlife and the
movement. This is my first girl and I have to
relook how I earn my money or how my career goes.
Then Karen was the owner for Australia, Melbourne
Salt. You know, she came back to Singapore and
said, hey, listen, I invested in a restaurant
in Bukit Timah at the Saddle Club. And now we're
looking for like a GM to run it because my partners
were doing it, but I don't think they've got
the right experience and we need a GM to come
in. And I'm like, I'm working for a public listed
company. I can't go back to one restaurant and
the salary. And so we spoke and John, her partner,
great guy as well. And they gave me an offer,
which was lower, but it wasn't too bad, right?
Considering that I could sleep, right? And spend
time with my daughter and everything. So I made
that jump going up to... Or MNC company and then
coming back private again with just one restaurant.
What restaurant is this? This is called Mimolette
back then. You know where the old turf club used
to be? Yeah, yeah. But this is the saddle club
inside. It's a white house. Now it's all gutted
out. I think they're building condos. Yeah, yeah.
But we opened there in 2007. Excuse me. If I'm
not mistaken, the casinos opened in 2009 or 2010.
But back then in 2007. we were the place to be
now this is a restaurant so we went in there
uh and there was a nice bar private room sort
of french modern european cuisine good brunch
good outdoors and uh well let's let's let's make
friday nights a party night so the restaurant
converted in the club we had like sometimes two
or three different djs going on with different
music and and it was the place to be and then
Well, the authorities, if they're listening,
they won't be happy, but the place is gone. So
we used to have, we could go as high as like
700, 800, sometimes even 1 ,000 people on Friday
night. And this is right in the jungle. You trip
in there, you see nothing but greenery, and then
you come to this little white house. And back
then in 2007, it was great. So from that one
restaurant, Mimolette, we opened another one
called Kinky, which is in Customs House, still
stands there in 2010. I spoke to the owners and
I said, let's do this. And they're like, no,
it's not the right time. And 2009 was the financial
crisis coming out. And I said, well, I've got
to look for a bigger company because I need some
progression. And then in the end, we went with
Kinky and then we did some mergers with the Mounted
Pantry Group, Food Chain with Bedrock. They've
got a few brands. So that journey with the Big
Idea Group, it had a few names, right? In the
end, Refinery Concepts was the name. more frequently
used in that journey. Seven years, we built the
business from one restaurant to about 14 venues,
I think, in seven years through mergers and things
like that. And I was the general manager for
the overall business. Even through the mergers
and acquisition of other companies, then I'll
take the leadership and get both companies in
together. So that was a seven years journey.
And then we sold the business to a... a real
estate company. And I continued from a GM one
restaurant. In that seven years, I moved up to
chief operating officer. Yeah. And then when
the... Yeah. So they put a CEO in for the interim.
But as the chief operating officer, I was running
the business then and then sold it to a real
estate company. I continued to be the COO for
a further two years. And they had some F &B that
came in as well. That size just doubled in the
last two years of my nine -year journey. Right.
Yeah. And then, yeah, and then I, nine years
is a long time, you know. It is, yeah. Yeah.
And it was hard work. It wasn't easy. And I was
just, wanted a change, right? And then I thought,
okay, why don't I take a short break? And by
the time I really had three kids, no, two kids.
Yeah. So I said, I'll take a break and three
kids, I think. My math fails me with the kids.
My wife will scold me. Yeah. So I said, I'll
take a break and let's see what's out there.
Right. And I took that break. They were nice
enough to give me a three months garden leave,
relaxing. And then I started panicking. I was
like, hey, the jobs out there at my level is
very, very limited, right? Someone has to leave
the country, retire, or father wants to pass
to the child and the child doesn't want the business.
Because there's only like, you know, at chief
operating level. Yeah, and that level is different
already. And then I was lucky. Third time. Okay.
Okay, this time, this time a headhunter came.
right? First headhunter after all these long
years. And I said, okay, Singapore business.
I just asked a few questions and I pretty much
guessed straight away in the first meeting, which
company it was. And it was Harry's. Now we're
going somewhere. Yeah. And I thought, well, nightclubs
all my life. I went to restaurants and bars.
We still kept a little bit of, a lot of the bar
element in it and the entertainment side as well.
I always had it, even if it was a restaurant.
And I said, well, Harry's is a hub, sports bar.
It's a bar, but it's still got a restaurant,
it's got food. I said, it won't be 3am every
day. I said, why not? And then started in 1992,
I think 37, 38 years this year. And I said, you
know, when I worked at Escobar, Mambo Kings back
then in 97, I'd stand outside Harry's, right,
when they had their jazz, live jazz, and it would
be packed right up to Boat Quay all the way.
And I couldn't afford to go in to buy Heineken.
So when the headhunter came, I said, okay, now
I'm going to go in there and buy a Heideken.
They had 20 odd bars, right? And I said, well,
if my next journey is going to be somewhere,
why not a Singaporean brand? It's iconic. It's
a household name. I said, okay, I'll take it.
And then that journey started late 2016 and it
went for about eight and a half years. When you
became a CEO, what was your first thought when
you took over? What were the first few things
you knew you had to change? Okay, well, now this
is bringing everything out of the bag now. It's
okay, I've left. I always knew it was not going
to be easy. I was going in to replace two...
two CEOs that they had because the business had
the pub business and they had the restaurant
and the boutique hotel business. So I knew it
was not going to be easy. I tried to find out
with the team who's been working there because
this was a private equity company that bought
the business. How many were from the old regime
or the private equity regime and it's more on
the people and the strengths and will they support
the direction that I would take the brand so
it's more people think that would have been very
difficult and then I might have to bring in some
people I know I have to work with some people
they're really good and getting them together
so everywhere you go it's really about it's really
about the people you know managing the people
working the people well basically what you're
saying is that you have got to fight to convince
the people who are already embedded there yeah
And you have to consolidate your people to come
in and to also get things going the way you see
it. Let's be blunt. Yes. Typical C -suite corporate
strategy. Yeah, I mean, you see, there are other
strategies where, okay, you're overpaid, you're
out, I take a cheaper guy, right? Some people
do that. But I think on that scale, it's really
about, do I have the time? And staff strength
wasn't that big, right? So, Aries as a business
is about 200. And in corporate office, maybe
just under 20 or senior management in that sense.
But the revenue size is such, the business model,
people say 20 bars, wow. But 20 bars giving you
a dollar versus 10 bars giving you five. So the
work's more. The work's more. The returns are
less. So the ideal structure could not be done
because our CEO in half years, I didn't hire
a CFO. I didn't hire a COO. So I had to work
with heads, director level sort, senior managers
sort. So a lot of time was spent. And to be fair
to the business owners, if I took my time to
get everybody back up to speed and follow the
direction, it would take a couple of years. So
another... good way to be, plot a few people
in there and they learn off their colleagues
and, oh, this is the way it's done. Mason says
like this, I know what he's thinking and everybody
works faster. So it's, I have to think that it'd
be quite selfish for me to judge if I also don't
have the time to spare. So how do I compensate
for that time? So I bring in like -minded people
that know my style and how to get things done
and then I plant them in there and then they
learn off. Okay, so basically you had satellites
of yourself. Planted in? In different areas.
Satellites of myself who knows how I think work.
Paid with you. Yes, yes. In different departments
so that at least they can get that going. But
why did you decide not to have a CFO of your
own and a COO of your own? The business could
not afford it. The business could not afford
it. And it was not, actually it was not. really
necessary. You can actually turn it around the
other way. Maybe I don't need the CEO role and
I change myself to GM. You know what I mean?
Yeah. So these are just titles. Titles. Okay,
I see. So it doesn't really, it's not important.
But yeah, so the business had to be run in that
way in order for it to do well and it had a good
run while I was there. Yep. Under your leadership,
Harry's won a ton of awards, named Asia's top
influential brand. How did you manage to achieve
that level of recognition and keeping the brand
on top? Like I said earlier, right? Household
brand linked. to Singapore. And with these awards,
I mean... Did you see it that way from the beginning,
mate? What's that? The idea that it's a household
brand, making it a neighbourhood kind of thing.
Yeah. Did you see it from the beginning that
way? Or did the owners prior to you coming on
board already saw it that way? No, the owners
already saw it, right? They saw it. I mean, they
bought private equity, they buy a business for
a reason. You know, you buy a business... Before
you think of making more money, you look at,
hey, what can I save that the other guy was overspending?
That's straight away a win, right? So they had
a good idea. They had a good direction. I added
to that very little, right? I was aligned with
their thought process and I had to work through
it to deliver. And that's how it went. And that's
how it went. Yeah. And with the awards, you know,
these awards, they come and go. and different
categories. I wouldn't take awards too seriously.
Okay, right. And no offense to the awards. They're
listening. Yeah, they're all listening. It's
just timing, place. Some brands don't want to
participate for their own reasons. So I wouldn't
say it's 100%. level playing field all the time.
But what we do appreciate it, we definitely not,
we're not going to give it back. Okay, here's
a political correctness. During the pandemic,
you were a big believer in digital changes and
working together using digital. Is there any
particular story about a really tough decision
you had to make back then and how it shaped?
How things shaped up? Yeah, I think the digital
side, it's, Everybody talks about it back then
during COVID, right? When we were running Harry's,
we said it's a pub. It's about people, right?
QR codes won't work, this and that. So not only
Harry's, a lot of people were forced to use it
because that was the only way to operate. In
order for your staff not to talk to a customer
or else. So everybody had to do it and had to
do it quick. We were lucky that we had... a good
portion of food sales with alcohol sales. So
when liquor restrictions came in and everything,
the food held in there, we were not known for
delivery. Now, obviously it went up tenfold from
where delivery started for Harry's as a brand,
but that was a very small pie. So it was never
going to last. But just get the guys busy, you
know, salary cuts had to come here and there.
Government helped a lot. And actually, you know,
a huge shout out to them because you look around
COVID and other counterparts when I talk about
in the nightlife scene with other cities and
everything, I think we probably aced it, you
know, in terms of the way it was supported. I
think government just didn't realize, neither
did any of us, that it was a two -year struggle,
right? We thought it was a one -year struggle.
So 2020 was a struggle. Government stepped in
hard. 21 was another wave. Government couldn't
stand in that much as 2020. But when you look
at the two years and you amortize the assistance
and what you have done, I think it shaped out
well. Singapore did well. Coming out is a whole
different story, which let's see if you ask me
about that. But I think the digitalization part,
everybody did it. But where I was really busy
during COVID was for the Nightlife Association
because we had direct channel. to the authorities
and to the task force. And that was the hard
one, sleepless nights, trying to figure out policies,
trying to challenge certain rules that were set
in place. So how did you guys fare doing that?
I think SNBA, Singapore Night Live Business Association,
I was vice president then. Joseph Ong, who owns
one group, he was the president there. I think
we did an excellent job with such short notice.
Like I said, again, government agencies helped
great. We were even given lead funding, right?
The association to manage the exit program, the
pivot and the pilot, right? Ministry of Law passed
the law that you could exit your lease with no
penalties in some conditions. But of course,
the floodgates, everyone knew would have been
open. So all the calls came through us. We were
the secretary and filing everything and making
sure everything was good enough. And then we
handed it over to the government for quick decisions.
The pilot didn't really take off, but the pivot
did. So if you're a nightclub and you had to
be a bistro or a cafe, we'd get it done for you.
If you say that, hey, I don't know how to cook,
we'll get you a cat -to -kitchen license. Oh,
my goodness. Put a microwave in there. You have
to do a lot of work, man. And you have to look
after your own establishment. My own business.
And you're going to take care of this. Yes. Wow.
Both. Oh, man. In two years. Oh, wow. Non -stop.
Whoa. Right. It's like, I remember this guy named
Eugnes. He started Elephant Bar. The one in Clarkie?
No, the one at the time. I don't know where it
is now, but I remember they started it off around
Chinatown. Okay. And it was Indian Spirits. And
just when he opened, boom, COVID. And what he
did, he pivoted and he became a booze, what do
you call it? Retail shop. Refinery kind of thing.
Ah, okay. They make booze. Like a distillery.
Distillery. Thank you. Thank you. See? This is
early dementia setting in. Okay. So, distillery.
He did that. And then he went on deliveries.
I mean, I got to give full marks to that guy.
And he's still, he's expanded and he's doing
great. put on weight, got married. And thriving,
I think that's fantastic. But just imagine, I'm
just trying to imagine you guys in the association
trying to help everyone pivot. Yeah, we had funding
to hire in. staff on contract. They did most
of the admin legwork. We get called in for the
serious stuff, right? If policy changes or any
discussions are going on, we are always embargoed.
We can't do anything, can't say anything. Government
did their best to try and listen and all the
way we were fighting, right? Even the 1030 license,
the no music, everything. And then when that
call came, was it March 2022 or early 2022? And
they said, okay, we are ready to go back to normal.
I said, what? Go to 12 midnight liquor license?
Can the music be at this level? No. Everything
back to normal. I said, when? I think it was
first April. Don't quote me, but it's early 2022.
And I couldn't believe it. I was still working
on mitigating the rules, right? Like, okay, what
about this step? And then next step. And then
we got the government made the announcement and
everything went back to normal. And that's it.
Yeah, man. But you know what? From then till
now, nightlife's dead. Okay. We'll talk about
that later. Okay. But let me just finish off
the last question I have about Harry's. Sure.
Under your leadership, Harry's opened up many
more outlets, especially when you guys expanded
overseas, across Asia. My curiosity is this.
Expanding a local brand, a Singaporean brand.
In Asia. Jeez. I mean, to me, I would go, if
I was someone else, I'd go, Singaporean brand
now. Boring. You'll be surprised. I'm being an
asshole. Okay. Yes. So, how did you do it? What
was your, in broad, in broad, yeah, what was
the strategy? So, it was not, I'll correct that
statement, it was not my doing under my time,
right? When I came on board, we already had about
six in india uh myanmar we had one uh and myanmar's
up to three now so uh we i was involved with
the myanmar uh the myanmese burmese uh franchisees
to get the other two going but you'll be surprised
a lot of franchise and a lot of brands right
uh everyone looked to the western world you know
McDonald's, American brands, Chili's, TGIF, things
like that. But there's a lot of other parts in
Asia, Southeast Asia, that actually recognize
Singapore as a market leader, as a brand, something
trusted. And they actually welcome brands built
by us, you know, in their country. This is Nieces
slapping me across the face. And I mean, it's
hard to travel to Yangon now, but you go to Yangon,
you go to Myanmar and you ask them, okay, where's
the coolest bar and have a drink? They'll bring
you the Harry's, right? And it'll be packed.
So different cultures, different way of enjoying
F &B. But yeah, but I was pleasantly surprised
on the strength. of anything coming out of Singapore
recognized by other Southeast Asian counterparts.
Okay. Thank you. I've been schooled. You mentioned
the stigma around service jobs in Singapore.
What do you think needs to change to make young
people see that the F &B and nightlife industry
has a great long -term career like the one you
had? But people will say this, you know, I can
tell you, I can hear it. But Chris, those were
different times. Okay. Over to you. The times
can only get better, right? Like a positive.
I mean, I'm not directly in the industry now,
even for myself, but what I'm doing now with
place management and venue management, I'm still
in doing F &B. And it actually covers a lot more.
So how do you change that mindset? I don't think
there's just one thing, right? There are a lot
of levers, lots of dots to be connected all at
the same time. And I'll get to, I'm sure you
asked me about the nightlife scene dying now,
but you identify 10 things, you cannot fix one
or two. All 10 has to be fixed at the same time
or within a period set quickly. The problem we
have is we talk about things, let's get the kids
into school, right? So the ITs are doing a great
job, the tertiary schools, the polys on hospitality,
right? But then after that, the internship, private
sector tries to do it, the retention and the
tracking of the staff, right? Because if they
don't leave stories and start off with, I started
off with a very bad school story, right? If I
was starting off with, I went to IT at this age
and learned, you see the difference? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. So the marketing out there, sometimes it's
lost in so much info that's out there, right?
So it's really school, private sector. And government
coming in. And on the school side, it's harder
for the school, right? Because you got the student,
then you got the parent, right? And a lot of
parents will tell their kids not to go to work.
And especially F &B. And sometimes my HR gets
calls from parents that, oh, my daughter's salaries,
how's it coming today? Why didn't it come after
midnight? After midnight, you know, my daughter
can't come to work or my son can't. So a lot
of the kids, even there's no push factor to go
on and go to work. to earn their own money. Plus,
parents also are not letting them be independent
at 17 and 18 to talk to HR, direct, go ask, why
is my pay late? It's not hard, right? So it's
a whole kampung that has to come together. Exactly.
But in my opinion, I always believe in this,
that when you have all these... mechanisms happening
in the schools you know and trying to advocate
for fmb and service jobs even music for that
matter yeah i've heard lots of crap coming out
of people's mouths about do they ever be a musician
you cannot earn a living i heard even kids telling
me that right right and i think of all these
mechanisms the one telling the one that is most
influential would be the home You know, I'm sorry,
but I'm not sorry. Fuck that. It's the parents.
Wake the hell up. You know, really, because it's
true. It's true. I've had Kuapo here just a couple
of days ago. She teaches. Okay. She has this
fantastic school. Yeah. And she teaches performance
and singing and voice. And kids, you know? Yeah.
And she told me, I mean, to this day, she told
me, why on earth would anyone want to learn singing?
Someone asked her that. I mean, why the hell
not? You know, can't earn money. And this is
where, I tell you, society, I think, has to change.
It's a long shot. But, you see, it's a, I mean,
when you look at it, right, I think, I mean,
I'm no expert, right? But when you look at how
developed Singapore is and where it is today,
right? People tend to say that, you know, well,
out of the 20 things that you can do, everybody's
got to go for the top 10, right? People buy houses
next to the school so the kids can go, right?
It's the same thing with jobs, you know? Yeah,
but it's mindsets change. Mindsets will change.
Culturally, we need to get better. Culturally,
culturally. Culturally more savvy, you know?
And since we're talking about that, you're right.
I'm going to talk about the demise of our nightlife.
Besides the high rents, what are the main things
you think are causing fewer people to go out
to clubs and bars these days? Okay. Well, we
always know rent is going to be number one, right?
So you said besides the rent. So put that aside.
We all know. Everyone talks about that alone.
The other factors, I would think. Yeah, I think
with the young now, I mean, during COVID as well,
right? I think we've lost a huge gap, right?
If you were 20 years old during COVID, you haven't
partied really yet, right? So then you work your
way backwards, right? Every two years, 20 to
18, 18 to 16, 16 to 14. So back then in 2020,
if you're 14 years old, you know, look at where
you'd be now. night clubbing or meeting friends
outside. It's not a thing. It's not a thing,
right? You didn't have to say, okay, I'm 18.
I got to go to Zug. My brother used to do that.
So I have to queue up and I got to get that Long
Island tea jug. So there's no pass down, right?
And we were very heavily involved with tech during
COVID to connect, right? Your Zoom, your Teams,
your everything else. And with that higher take
-up rate and with social media and everything
else that's out there, the content gets fed to
you right in front of you. So we had to Zoom
to connect to friends. And I got out with a lot
of friends I haven't seen in 20, 30 years. It
was great. But then now you come back to... Normal
living. Yeah, to normal living. And a lot of
people are not making appointments to go out.
Now, I'm not saying go out to a nightclub. I'm
just saying go out. That's it, just go out, eat
bak kut teh, dessert. And I believe in precinct,
I believe in the nighttime economy. I might come
from the nightlife, but if the nighttime economy
doesn't work, it doesn't work. Now, if we take
a walk down Ballestier Road, let's say we go
2 a .m. today, let's see how many bak kut teh
stores or buntiang ki, chicken rice, or anything
supper is left. Let's see. compared to, sorry,
20 years ago or 15 years ago. So it's slowly
been depleting. After COVID, it became even harder.
So I think it's not, besides nightlife, it's
just activity. The fact of meeting somewhere
and doing something with others. I think that's
the real struggle. And then you get that locally
from your patrons, right? And then, Good for
all of us. Our currency is very strong, right?
And everybody says, well, now we all got to keep
going to Malaysia, Bintan, Batam, whatever we
haven't done in so long, we have that opportunity.
Singapore is getting a bit tight, crowded, we
are stressed, we need to go out. So then people
tighten their belts because they know, okay,
in two weeks, I'll be in KL. I'll party there.
I don't have to party now. So number one, it's
not part of your culture to catch up so much.
Number two, you're saving up because your money
is going to go very far elsewhere. You have that
good time and then you come back. Come back,
you recover as well. You save a little bit more.
So instead of getting you for, hey, Chris, what
are you doing for the month? It's more like,
Chris, what are you doing for the week? Because
the other three weeks, right? Either you're recovering
from cost and things like that because... Cost
of living is also high in Singapore, right? So
that's another point. The next point is, who
can afford transport to go home? If you take
a grab from Clarkie, you come back here, Tampines,
you are lucky to get something around $35. And
it's not like before, you know, uncle, I give
you extra three stops, four stops. You know,
you try to put two stops, no grab comes to you.
So transport is another thing. And the night
rider and the late train, Even though it doesn't
contribute to thousands of people out at night,
because transport department says that, you know,
running costs that we're not making, and it hasn't
opened since post -COVID. Yeah, night riders
gone. Yeah. So this is going back to the same
thing, right? People say don't go into F &B jobs,
right? Same thing. If you want to fix this or
address this, you got to identify the 10 points
and all 10 points got to... got to be addressed
at the same time. So that's the tricky part.
And the association only can do one or two things.
Now people ask me, oh, clock key, boat key, now
you got 4 a .m. Is the one hour going to help?
Actually, that was my last gift to the association
and to the industry. It's not. One hour is not
going to help. But it's one of the dots of many
dots. So as an association and all volunteers,
what can you do? I mean, if there's 10 points
and somebody gives you one, you take it. You
won't say no. Some people might. get things out
of it but I think where people forget going back
to this one hour extension is Zouk anchors Clarkie
because after the redevelopment nightlife's well
pretty much non -existent there can that feed
off whoever's still around there would something
a makan place open nearby would that help balance
off the grab rights because you know more cars
will come out you know And people are going out
with that extra one hour. Nobody has to rush
out at 2 a .m. before 3 a .m. So would that help?
Only time can tell. If you look at BoatKey, BoatKey
is even more interesting. The one hour extension
gives it to people with a current liquor license
and whether they want to stay out late. But BoatKey
is in a moratorium zone for the last 19 years,
which means you cannot change your license. So
even if you're going to vote a jazz musician
in your restaurant, they say, sorry, you're a
restaurant. You cannot have. You can't even apply.
So now that's been lifted. So applications can
be considered. Now we go back to how you said
about what elephant did you say earlier in Chinatown?
The elephant bar. The elephant bar, right? He
became a distillery. He did during COVID. Same
thing here. Now we need restaurants and F &B
operators out there saying, well, no license
could be changed and now it can be considered.
So how do I make my dining experience different?
My nightclub is so boring. How do I make it different?
My bar needs something else. How do I make it
different? A lot of people fail to realize that
legally you need licenses for a lot of things.
Now there's a chance to change. Luckily, the
Singapore River One, which is a precinct, a business
improvement district there, and they're going
around trying to get all the tenants, you know,
listen to their ideas. You need the whole kampung
to work together. Yeah. Basically, you know,
you cannot be in an area where your bar is thriving
and the next door guy is empty and you're happy.
It's only a matter of time you will die. What
you just told me, all that you just told me,
I mean, it echoes the same as what Dennis Fu
had told me on my season premiere. And I also
agree. I think we've somehow lost our DNA. I
mean, for me, my interest is music. Right. And
without nightlife, our musicians can't thrive.
No platform. Yeah. And we both, we all agreed
on that show that it's an ecosystem. We no longer
have a supper club. We no longer have people
going out late at night to have, let's go makan,
you know. And look at Cloud Key, Hai Ti Lau,
just shut down, you know. It's, and well, yeah,
transportation, late at night. We used to have
the night, what's it called? The night owl bus
service or something like that. Night rider.
I forgot the name of it, but yeah. Well, there
was also one by the SBS. Okay. And we hardly
ever thought about, you know, or worried about
coming home after midnight. Who cares, right?
And yes, I also agree that the Xennial generation,
for those caught, you know, during the COVID
pandemic. Some of them, if they could wear masks
permanently, they would. Excuse me, it's a sad
predicament that we got ourselves in. Yeah. And
I worry about our tourism. I worry about our
nightlife. I worry especially for our performers
and musicians. Really, it's something that is
very close to my heart. Now that we're talking
about the two keys along the Singapore River,
let's talk about something close to the home.
Neighborhoods. Neighborhoods, local communities
within a neighborhood. Yes. The authorities.
And then your neighborhood bar, where there's
got music. Right. And the complaints you get
for noise. Are you going to get me in trouble?
That one really gets on my tits, let me tell
you, man. I can't stand it when people try to
be so smug. I have got people who would say to
me, but Chris, you've got to be on the other
flip side of the coin. Yeah, I can. But there
is a word that I feel that is missing in Singapore's
conversations, and that word is called tolerance.
Instead of complaining, celebrate. We complain
about everything. Now, let's be fair here. If
you have a, and I, again, I'm talking about this.
I feel like a bloody parrot, but I'll, you know,
it's like a Malay wedding, you got kompangs.
Yes. Then you've got Chinese New Year, you've
got dragon dance, lion dance, the drums, right?
You can complain about smells of curry being
cooked. You have all kinds of stuff. Everyone
is so damn freaking entitled. But we forget to
tolerate. We forget to celebrate. I would go
and see if I can get an invitation to the Malay
wedding and makan. I would try to enjoy and celebrate
other people and celebrate the things and be
grateful for the things we have in the neighborhood.
And I'm saddened because it only shows, besides
us being entitled and selfish, I'm saddened that
the music has been lost in the Singaporean DNA.
Yep. So what do you think? When you got a license,
an entertainment license that tells you, I entered
11, and some clown comes in and makes a lot of
noise about your noise, and I just cannot understand
how one could judge decibels from where. If you
go into the place, naturally your decibel levels
will go up if you take it from wherever you're
living, from where you're domiciled. then you
show us proof of that. But, I mean, I don't own
any bars. Yeah. But I can just think that it's
ridiculous because the people who do enjoy it
gets watered down entertainment. Yeah. I mean,
it's a, you know, it's a tough one. Believe it
or not, believe it or not, if you take out violence
or fights in nightlife around the world, most
cities will tell you the number one issue that
they have and this is cities because Singapore
is so small so even our suburbs also the whole
country city is actually noise right and this
goes it's not New York London all the same because
I go for this global forums and it's always noise
if you look at our NEA chart and don't quote
me I could be wrong got more about this I know
I don't know man depends on what you say our
decibel grading I believe my voice would be louder
uh if i was to talk loudly you know so so the
reading number the distance where you actually
place the recorder and you know so many years
and everywhere i've gone that there will be some
noise issue uh sound does travel through a base
you know Sometimes a door opens, something leaks.
It's one of those things, you know, you try to
trace water leaking down from your roof, you
know, you got to put blue water to, yeah, it's
like that. It's like that. And the experts will
tell you it's like that. So I look at the business,
yes, valid license, but we also have to be very
mindful that there's a clause that says to operate
it without disturbing others. Very gray, the
area. So if keep knocking, by a resident or the
public, right? You know, Singapore, we had to
go MP, meet the people session. Then the authorities
sometimes are forced to change a license unfairly.
I would call it unfairly, but they'll say it
fairly, like time to expire, right? Sorry, I
cannot give again. And they'll find a reason.
So we don't want to see that happen. Now, I won't
talk about the resident or the public complaining.
I'll get to that. So how do we mitigate this,
Chris? This is the... So what I'm trying to get
at is every... on sound is unique. And the issue
we have is the complainer and the person playing,
there's no direct link or there's no mediator
in between. Usually the mediator will be the
landlord. They would be the worst mediators.
They take the rent and that's it. And interpretation
of law, they don't want to get involved. And
SNBA, I mean, if you know this person, ask them
to give us a call, maybe I'll send someone there
to... In Australia, you know, we had one guy,
he's on the 20th floor and my salt nightclub
is just one door, non -stop on this noise. In
the end, we paid for double glazed glass and
he said, thank you very much. And the case got
closed. So it's really about how can we solve
it? Because we want to play music till that 11
or the 10, 30, whatever that license is. Which
came first, the chicken or the egg? My club here,
you come stay here, you make noise. you can't
tell that to the only landlord how landlord you
know so everyone can talk about it but people
have to be serious about one thing to resolve
you can't fix it i resolved the two parties right
the middle person is the is the key so finding
that middle person is is not easy not easy and
that's why we work with the authorities and with
government on certain areas because as an association
all we do is cover the gap of that missing middle
person But it can be resolved. And I'll tell
you now, I work with the police very closely
on a lot of issues. And they're very pragmatic.
They understand commerce as well. And they want
industries to thrive so long as safety elements
are met. Things like noise and all, there's no
safety issue to it, but it still complains. So
their hands are also tied when pushed to a corner
with a... Hey, I've been telling this 10 times.
You cannot resolve. So the last thing you want
to do, right, is tell your parents, I'm going
to be a cop, you know, super cop and everything.
And every day you go down there complaining about
noise, you know. So the police don't want to
do it as well. And they don't find joy in it.
So it really, we have to find that middle person
to sort of fix it. But neighborhood pubs and
bars must coexist with residents. It's important.
I mean, you look at the latest pickleball case
now. Now you can't play pickleball after a certain
time. And do you know our music for residential
or outdoor and everything, 10 .30, it used to
be midnight. That got changed, I think, just
before COVID. Maybe five, six, seven years ago
only. So if this keeps going on, it's going to
be hard. Maybe shout out to the government that,
hey, how do we let everyone sort of coexist?
Now, if they say move the neighborhood pub, all
go into the city, it's also not really a solution.
Because some people and residents are used to.
So it's a tough one. I don't have the right answer
for it. No, no, no. I don't expect you to have
an answer. I just want to hear your opinion.
As a revitalizer today, on a hypothesis that
you took on, a struggling night spot today, what
would be your top three moves to get more customers
to the door, solve the transport problem, and
deal with high operating costs? What would you
do? Anything I say will be the same thing everybody
would do. You know, I think first, first I need
the crowd. I need to identify where this crowd
is coming from and what are they really after,
right? Because if you're just there to eat and
drink, you can go anywhere, right? If you're
there for the DJ, fine. But if the DJ is not
there every day, then what? There's something
that goes deeper than that. What is it? If you're
there for the band, play every Friday, you come
every Friday. Okay, I get it. But there's something.
What is it? Who do you connect with? So really
trying to understand the profile of that guest.
Are they kids? Are they students that, you know,
after Wednesday and Thursday, they like to hang
out and this venue becomes the hangout place.
Not a bar. It's just a venue. It's a hangout
place. It becomes a second home. That's it. Like
a Starbucks, but it just happens to be in this
place I just made, right? Yeah. Okay, so besides
the students, then who else? Who does what after
work? So trying to understand within that precinct
or that area, what do people want? How they move?
Even if they don't know they want to meet friends,
but try to figure out how do you string all those
things together so that you try to change your
F &B place or your bar. Don't look at it as a
bar. Look at it as a meeting place. And everybody
meets to do different things. Are you able to
offer? those things you know so that's one thing
on the people okay transport is a tough one yeah
right i would uh if i had neighbors i i think
i had a bar with neighbors uh operating fnb i'll
knock all the doors and say hey let's all come
together if i went to grab and say do a promotion
for transport when you come to my place i don't
have the volume but if all 20 of us say we will
all sign up with grab so that our customers if
you spend x dollar gets a voucher i think grab
would be interested And then we make sure this
street is all grab and not tada. Sorry, I didn't
say tada. Maybe tada not grab. But, you know,
who knows? Comfort Delgro might come in and say
they want it. So I would then go to the kampung
there and say, listen, you also got transport
problem, not just me. Without you, I cannot fix
it alone. So how do we get the gang? Wow, damn
good. That's a bloody good idea. That's what
we do at the association. Oh, that's a freaking
good idea, man. The first person to tell me that
shit. Okay. What's the third and last thing?
So that's what the transport. Yeah, rising costs.
Rising costs. It's okay. Rent. So this place
was given to me. No choice. So I cannot change
the landlord. Yeah, you cannot change the landlord.
I think fixing the rent would be the best help.
The second thing is the next highest cost is
actually the manpower. Right? And really looking
at do you need all these people? How can you
best work out? your labor costs in that sense,
right? And you never know, it could be an idea
with your neighbor as well, right? Since transport
so late, we are closing midnight, right? Why
don't we share one guy, right? He's the closing
guy. He cleans the place. He does what, what,
what. We got CCTV. After he come to yours, he
does yours. You know, so we couldn't find this
one person that's looking to work from 12 midnight
to 3 a .m. And then, so it's not, going straight
down to just the guy closing up and cleaning.
What I'm saying is that there must be something
in the manpower you can do. And if you have to
pay your part -timers more, fine, you spend time
finding the right person and making sure when
that person rocks up, that's when the money is
made. Now, while you're doing all these things,
we also got to remember, this is a F &B sport,
right? You must know that your customers are
not leaving your door upset. And if they are,
you know because something happened and you don't
address it. it will never go away. That person
might not come back and through time, you will
tell. And one day you'll sit down and say, yeah,
I knew my service standards wasn't there. Or
I knew I had to fix this and I didn't. I knew
my price was, I was cheating them, too high price
and I never. So things that you know. So the
whole customer satisfaction is, people talk about
this, but I really truly believe in it, even
though I know customers are unreasonable. Sometimes.
It's a 4 .5, they give you 2 or 3, but never
mind. There are learnings in there. You'll be
pleasantly surprised. You pay attention to your
customer satisfaction scores or however you get
a feedback. And those are some things that you
wake up to that you can read and say, okay, and
don't take it as a negative, right? Take it as,
okay, that's what he says. You know, if that
really happened, I'll be pissed off too. And
yeah, let's do something about it. So it's a
lot of these things that need to happen in order
not to follow down the, everything is dying sort
of trail. No wonder Dennis said that it's, it's,
F &B is a science. Yeah. And even if you try
to piece it together, all these experts, consultants,
schools, and everything like this, it's just
never, the info never ends. Because situation,
circumstances. It's a lot of data. The more data
you gather, the more you're able to react and
be proactive. I can't work without data. I'm
a data freak. I don't look like it, but for me,
it's like... I would have never figured you to
be a data freak, to be honest. If any of my guys
tell me something and they want this, the first
thing I do is to make sure all the data points
are there for me to read and review before I
go on the ground and listen to him a second time
and say, okay, here's the money, go get it done.
Because the numbers tell the story. You're usually
quite accurate. Yeah. Hey, thanks, man, for all
this. No problem. It's amazing. I mean, I'm hearing
things that's very refreshing for me. It's good.
It's a lot of learning curves, though I'm not
in the F &B business, but interesting enough.
I've gathered points of view from Dennis, from
Rosie, and now from you. It's great, man. I mean,
really. Thank you so very much for being here,
Nathan. Thanks, and thanks, Chris. Wow. We've
been overshot. No, don't worry about it. How
long have we been talking, Kai? Wow, an hour
and a half. More than an hour. Yeah, an hour
and a half. Oh, don't worry, man. The one with
Dennis is far longer. Okay. But thanks again
for being on the show. I really appreciate you
being here. And I wish you all the very best
in whatever you're up to. Thank you, Chris. And
definitely keep up what you're doing. Thank you.
Giving ideas to people, letting them listen.
providing this platform. And by the way, guys,
the studio is rocking, man. It's an awesome studio.
And thanks for the invite, most importantly.
My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much again.
And everybody, we're still very early stages
of season six of the Chris Hansen Conversation.
It's going to be a hell of a long one. But I
promise you, it's going to get more and more
interesting. Thanks for watching. As usual, I'm
going to tell you this. Stay safe, everybody.
I'll see you next Friday. Bye -bye.