I use the word social engineering. Okay. And
this person just blast me outright and say, Michael,
you say social engineering. I didn't see any
social engineering at all. I said, no, social
engineering is not boats and nuts and fuel oil
and steam engines. Was that what they were thinking?
Yeah, he was thinking like that. And I explained
to him that social engineering is manipulating
minds, right? Hi, and welcome back to the Chris
Hansen Conversation. This is the second last
episode before we end season five. And with me
in studio, I have someone who wears quite a number
of hats. He is a writer, a producer, a director,
a lecturer, even an author, and an award -winning
actor. But believe it or not, He's also a cybersecurity
consultant. I'm getting fucking confused here.
And that's what I'm here to do, to find out what
exactly is wrong with this guy on this series
of I Love My Job with the accidental award -winning
actor, Michael Chua. Welcome to the studio, man.
Thank you. Thank you, Chris. Thanks for coming
down all this way to have this chit -chat with
me. And it's really an honor, man, to have you
here. you know a guy who is an award winning
actor and I have this you heard me say I'm confused
I need to sort out this muddle if someone asks
Michael what do you do at a dinner party how
would you describe yourself and the work that
you love oh normally I would just say I teach
because then everybody understand then they'll
probably ask, what do you teach? Then I say,
I teach technology and media. Usually that ends
there. When you say technology, what do you mean?
What kind of technology? Sometimes they ask that,
so I say cybersecurity. Wow. Okay. Cybersecurity
and media. What's the correlation? That's usually
the next question. So we see, you've been in
the company of bright people. If I'm asking the
same question. What's the correlation? Actually,
there's a lot of commonality. For both professions,
if I'm going to interview or recruit somebody,
I'll look at the sense of urgency, concern for
detail, and a healthy sense of paranoia. So these
three must be spot on. You have been on set,
right? As a producer, line producer especially,
you need to have a healthy sense of paranoia
or things are going to break up. But I kind of
have three or four contingency plans, but things
are going to break up. You know, that kind of
thing. So in cybersecurity, it's the same. Oh,
so you are saying that Murphy's Law, what can
go wrong will go wrong, plays a similar role
between the work in cybersecurity and media.
Yes, correct. Film production in specific. Okay,
you want to expand on that a little bit. Give
an example. What can go wrong, will go wrong?
Well, say, suppose, let's go into the cybersecurity
side. Sure. Where a simple case of lock -in,
right? When you lock in and say, if that hacker
is clever enough to guess the password or has
stolen the password and he got in. So there has
to be another step to check on people already
in the perimeter fence, but without them knowing.
Because if they know, then it gets very annoying.
I already put in, say for legit people, I already
put in the password and you keep checking, keep
asking me, that wouldn't work. So there are methods
to check on people within the perimeter fence.
It's called... Pervasive security, yeah. Okay.
Pervasive security means preventive. No, pervasive,
that means you keep checking on people. Okay,
keep checking on people. Okay, hang on. I'm trying
to get this right here. So what you're talking
about is not about finding out who the hackers
are, but in telling people how you can protect
your account. Yes, yes. No, no, no. Say, for
example, once you get into the parameter fence,
right, you do some checks without them knowing.
Say, for example, at a very high end, I don't
know how many organizations in Singapore practice
that at all, is that there's something called
cognitive biometrics where the way you move your
mouse, right, is you. No! Huh? So that's a signature.
So if they have already collected enough information,
the way you type, there's a rhythm to it. So
if they are really high -end into security, these
are the things that you will check. A lot of
people do not know, including the so -called
cyber security specialists in Singapore. So you
can actually remotely check. how a person's pattern
of typing, the mouse movement is like. When they
type, it will be sent to the server. Oh, okay,
okay. So, if, I suppose for very high -end systems,
they have to download an app, right? And everything
is in the app, right? So, if you move your mouse,
those are conveyed to the system. So, what can
go wrong then? No, then if, if this person is
a bit strange today, The way he moves his mouth
is different. So you can start quizzing. So they
might not be the same person, the original person.
You can start quizzing him or tightening the
security and all that. So you got to be a paranoid
person in order to do this. Very, very. But many
systems don't do that. Okay, okay. I've climbed
all over the world for many years and Swift,
for example, was the... global head of information
security policy and business continuity. Wow.
So you need to be really paranoid when you have
the whole world banks transferring trillions
of dollars on your network. So it has to be secure.
So there was once when I was implementing a biometric
system because the administrators have nine or
16 passwords to remember. Right. And they don't
remember and guess what? Yeah. They write in
a notebook, paper notebook. Who doesn't do that?
Yeah. So we didn't like that because this is
highly secure system and we didn't like that.
So we implemented a biometric system because
this was only fingerprint. So most vendors will
have your fingerprint taken and then they match
it. in a technical way. And if it matches, you
go in. If it doesn't match, you get out. So if
it doesn't match, you get out. That's good because
you prevented somebody from going in who didn't
have the right. But if it gets in, I'm not even
happy about that because not necessarily happy
about that. Because if you have a fingerprint
taken, that data is approximate. Because the
second time you put your fingerprint there, the
scanned data is slightly different. Okay. So
I even checked for what you call repeat attacks.
So say suppose you have your scanner on your
desk, right? And you put your fingerprint there
and it takes the first data, go in and it works.
Right. But you're the real guy, so it's okay.
You're the legit guy. But unbeknownst to you,
somebody has collected this data. It's in your
fingerprint. Yeah. Okay. And then while you're
away, he takes this signal, not his hand, not
his thumb. He replays that data into the system
and the system says, oh yeah, this is Chris'
fingerprint. Oh, okay. So to maintain this paranoia,
which in that business that you are in, is a
complete... necessity positively, doesn't it
drive you up the wall? You get used to it. Remember
the first time you cycle, right, the bicycle?
Yeah. It's pretty stressful, right? Yeah, okay.
After some time, it's normal. Once you ride a
bike, you can always ride a bike. So it becomes
an occupational hazard sometimes. For example,
if you go to a check -in to a hotel and they
have a screen, right? And when she turned around
to take your thing, you couldn't look into her
screen. Oh, wow. All kinds of things you can
think about, man. I want to see that in the movies,
dude. Speaking of movies, let's talk about the
paranoia when it comes to the set in media. Yeah,
on set, a lot of things can go wrong, obviously.
If you're outdoors, 101 things can go wrong.
It rains. Or if your getaway car is supposed
to be there, you run to the getaway car, hop
in and zoom away. And then on that day, okay
in Singapore no budget you don't book the host
on that day somebody parking there so how is
your car gonna zoom in there and you jump in
so there has to be a lot of contingency plans
as to where to put okay it's equivalent to planning
for a wet weather program and stuff like that
okay but have it's not you mentioned as an example
of getting into a getaway car and speeding off
In Singapore, there's no budget. Fine. Have you
ever done something like that in your career
as an actor? Jumping into a getaway car and zooming
off? In one of my productions, which is a 23
-minute action scene, there was a scene where
the, not me, but the lead actor jumped into that
car and zoomed away. But on that day, the row
of cars were parked there. Oh, this is Singapore?
Yeah, yeah. So we couldn't do that. So I... and
the whole city is packed. Right, of course. Hard
to find somewhere cinematic, convenient, nice,
and have a getaway car and zoom away, unless
you book the street. Which, Michael, proves a
point, you know. Bank heists can never happen
in this country. Jam, yeah. So, I have to change
the script a bit. I have to tweak the script
a bit. Right, right. Okay, this is you putting
on that producer's hat. Yeah. What's the common
thread, a core passion? In both these industries,
man, is there a commonality? Besides, I'm talking
about core passion, a common core passion when
you link the two together. You mentioned about
paranoia and all, that is a similarity, sure,
but there must be passion for both. Yeah, I think,
I haven't thought about it explicitly, but now
that you ask, I think it's storytelling, funny
enough. Because when I'm designing a system,
I'm thinking of what story does that guy have
to get into my system? Story as in what journey
he's going to take, right? Okay. Into my system.
And it's the same for writing scripts and acting
and directing. Same thing. Yeah, that one is
definitely writing a story. It's about storytelling
because a lot of people would take cybersecurity
as a technical endeavor. Right. Which is, of
course, you need technical controls and all that.
But what if you put that control in the wrong
place? This is not the path that the hacker will
walk. So it has to be about story. And these
days, fraud and cybersecurity, there's some interlapse.
Well, there's a lot of conjuring there, isn't
it? A lot of speculation, conjuring assumptions.
Yeah, so these are the stories that fraudsters
will think about. To get your password or your
credentials to get into the system. So basically
putting your mind into the mind of a hacker,
for example. Yeah. Why would this guy be doing
it? So it sounds like criminal minds, man. Yeah.
That's quite a broad subject. So in the front
end, you think about motivation of crime. And
motivation of crime is mostly either sex or money.
I think, I mean, it's not a scientific study.
About 90 % is either sex or money. So in some
cases, when you think it's not sex, it's definitely
money. Then you follow the money trail. There's
10 % which is very hard to solve because it's
irrational. Some crazy guy that did this, it's
irrational. So if you have a quota to meet, say
if you are an investigator, You have a quota
to meet, right? Certain crimes to be solved.
I think I will focus on the 90 % and the 10%.
You script write, don't you? Huh? You do script
writing too, right? Yeah, I do, I do. The stories
that you've written so far, are they all along
the same lines as what you just told me in this
story that's quite compelling, actually? A bit,
a bit. I've written about... For example, childhood
friends ended up on the opposite side of independent
struggle. So technology involved, they used drones.
They used hacking. They would hack each other.
So do you find coming up with stories like this
exciting enough for you? It really challenges
your right brain. You enjoy imagining stuff.
yes that part yes but eventually you have to
get it implemented then it's made into a movie
and that is even more challenging because especially
when you talk to the people that are commercializing
the film and they say nah come on which country
is that? Myanmar nobody is interested in Myanmar
but it's a good story I know it's a good story
but the people are interested in, maybe in US
fighting China in Xinjiang or stuff like that,
then it will sell. The tickets will sell. So
that is quite frustrating. So the commercial
aspects actually jams the brakes. And before
that, when you have to pitch to people, never
mind pitching to the money people, you pitch
to your peers first. Some of my peers do not
understand technology. so they will be unnecessarily
jamming the bricks and that annoys me quite a
lot. So for instance, very simple, I wrote in
the paper, I say that, I use the word social
engineering. Okay. And this person just blast
me outright and say, Michael, you say social
engineering. I didn't see any social engineering
at all. I said, no, social engineering is not
boats and nuts and... And fuel oil and steam
engines. Was that what they were thinking? Yeah,
he was thinking like that. And I explained to
him that social engineering is manipulating minds,
right? I don't know why they use the word engineering,
but okay. And what disappointed me was that he
didn't apologize because he was quite rude. And
among peers, there's no need to be rude, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Egos. I'm not begging your
money. You're not begging my money. Egos, right?
These are people that's not constructive. So
there are a lot of steps to overcome. I believe
that in Western developed countries, it'd be
easier to find somebody that... understands it
better. And I'm saying that from the point of
view of having worked in 19 countries, four continents,
a big part of them in Western developed countries.
So they have a longer tradition of technology
implementations. And for the case of movies,
of course, a lot longer tradition. So I think
I will stand a better chance explaining these
things to the different sets of people. So the
thing is not to... Not to upset yourself by saying,
Michael, I don't think, not to be gaslighted.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, Michael, you're not good.
Are you sure? Nobody seems to accept what you
say. So, Michael, don't you think then that our
local viewing public, our audiences, we can use
in broad, we can use that term audience, the
audience, are not very open? into wanting to
understand these things? I think audience are
okay. Okay. Because eventually when you have
your film made into the detail, right? You would
check through your detail, right? So say for
example, you want an event to happen, you got
to foretell it first, right? You build it up
slowly. Sure. You build a bit, a bit, a bit,
then bam, right? Right. To the climax, yeah.
So you can... you can write your story that way
to gradually build up and explain things. Yeah.
You have time to add in set designs, color, prop,
lights to accentuate what you want. Yeah, but
earlier on, you were saying, like, for example,
that a friend of yours, a peer of yours, a contemporary
who couldn't understand, didn't want to understand.
And then the example you used about nobody cares
about Myanmar, but unless, of course, if you're
talking about the US, you're having an attack
on... which is some part of China. I can't remember
where you said, but sorry about that. But that
would be more compelling, you know, for a script
and all that because the money people will be
looking at all these things. The commercial aspects
come into play and perhaps also maybe because,
is it because our people, even when I say audience,
I don't just mean the viewing audience alone,
but people who would invest in something like
this, you know, would also look will also be
viewers as well. Then, would it be that, could
it be that they're just too close? They're not
really open to that perspective compared to a
Westerner? I think you have to split these two
groups, general audience and the audience that
will have to the purse string of that. Yeah,
but wouldn't these people also be viewing audience
as well? Yeah, but their eyes are very different.
They are usually older and some of them even
feel that you cannot be a star unless you appeared
on free -to -air TV before. Oh, that is so dinosaur,
man. But they are the one that has the purse
strings. And then you think that the film industry,
I mean, I'm always concerned about the arts.
I always, people watch the show, it's like a
broken recording. And I don't want it to be broken
because I will continue preaching it. I always
advocate for musicians and performers and entertainers
and also for writers recently. And I will also
not exclude actors like guys like you, right?
People who want to bring that creativity to the
fore, you know? And it's so sickening when they
see, and I just had this discussion actually
just last night with some people casually, socially.
And you know, it seems as long as you're not
from mainstream, you're nothing. And that's not
fair. For example, you. Someone asked me, so
what are you doing tomorrow, Chris? Oh, I'm meeting
this guy. He's coming on my show. And he's an
actor. Oh, who is he? His name is Michael Chua.
And they go, never heard of him. I said, why?
He must be an old man. No, that didn't come out.
They said, they said, where is he from? Channel
5? Channel 8? I said, must it be? Must actors
come from just these channels? Can't they be
someone who's talented and never been or don't
want to be even on mainstream? That's not fair.
Because mainstream would spend money to promote
their own full -time artists. But does it mean
that there are no other talents? Outside of that,
we haven't grown. I think as a viewing audience,
we haven't grown. I think we have. Well, you're
very kind, you are. The audience have fragmented
into groups now. You have the younger online
audience and you have the TV people, which is
very small now, free to air, and you have the
movie people. So the... I used to tell a young
chap, I say that mainstream media. Then he asked
me, what's mainstream media? I said, TV. He said,
no, no, no. That is legacy media. What? Then
I asked him, what is mainstream media? He said,
online. So that's a more accurate portrayal of...
How old is this guy, man? 35. That's not very
young either. Yeah, yeah. But he's in the industry.
So he's saying now, hey, people, you listen to
this, right? This is interesting. So your free
-to -air channels are, let's repeat this just
for the sake of the viewer on my show, okay?
Mainstream, what used to be called mainstream
is perceived to be legacy today. And what is...
online as digital in the digital space is considered
as mainstream. Yes. I believe that actually.
You know why? Let me give you an illustration.
Sure. So I have acted for MediaCore. Oh, you
have? In case you didn't hear. I have, I have.
And they are, I mean, not as a very small role,
but recurring a few episodes. So it's visible.
Right. Visible, right? It's not a wallpaper.
Right. And Not once have somebody stopped me
on the street and said, you are that doctor seat
from Kin. No. Oh, you're in Kin? I was on Tangling.
Oh, with Mel Permanent. I didn't work with him.
Okay. So, never had once somebody stopped me
on the street and said, you are that. However,
I'm in this YouTube series, you know, Jian Hao
Tan. Okay, yeah, definitely out of his age range.
Yeah. Sorry. No, it's okay. No, no, I apologize.
He has a series called Titan Academy. Yeah, yeah,
Titans Academy. I saw that. And every episode
after, say, two months, give and take, has upwards
of two million views. Wow. So, the TV, I've estimated,
I'm not privy to any official data, but estimated
based on checking straw poll with my friends
and random people. I think they have, 100 to
150 ,000 viewers per episode. Wowee. And channel
8, if it's a blockbuster like wow kind of series,
per episode, 300 ,000. Wow, my goodness. So 300
,000 take their top. 300 ,000 compared with 2
million. And guess what? 2 million is not the
highest. I have some of my episodes have gone
on and have 9 million. My goodness. 10 million
and that's not the highest because their highest
episode is 46 million holy crap so from Chinese
speaking countries no the Chin Hao Tan videos
are in standard English they don't use even Singlish
oh this is an English program yeah English so
that everybody can understand it sometimes when
I express in a very localizing Singaporean way
the director will say can we do that take again
so they want they want to have everyone across
yeah and it's just huge it's no comparison at
all and you would think that the audience is
growing fastest in Singapore no it's in the US
they're growing at 16 % I think wow yeah wow
Chris what have you been doing wrong man damn
it so No, I think your content should really
fly. In fact, I told you before, before coming
here, I feel very stressed. You're very high
standard. My goodness. High standard. I appreciate
the compliment though. Don't mind me asking.
I don't know whether or not you're going to be
sensitive about this, but how old are you now?
I am not young, but I tend not to reveal my age
online. I'm 55. You're older or younger? Okay.
But when you were 50, When you were 50, you were
established already in tech. And then talent
scouted via Facebook photo. Can you just walk
me through what happened there? Oh, it's a boat
from the blue. I didn't know. Yeah, yeah. Pretty
sure. Yeah, no, definitely. No kidding. I just
got a message. I said, me acting? And you've
never done that before? Of course, in school,
you do stage and all. Sure, sure. Not. not professionally,
go there, big cameras around and all that. Wow.
Right? Measuring, using tape into the camera
and it's so complicated, right? I mean, stage,
at least you're just having fun, right? Yeah.
So, yeah, it was quite a surprise and she contacted
me. I was curious. I went for the audition and
subsequently the rehearsals because they got
cast and she was very generous with her compliments
about my ability to act. She said, Michael, honestly,
I'm a good judge of talent and I, believe you
should take up acting seriously. And at that
time, I believe her. I mean, I didn't know any
better. Honestly, if she had said, Michael, you're
horrible. Give up and die. You would have accepted
that too. I wouldn't be angry. Yeah. And when
the show reel was up, I sent it out and indeed
I got a lot of gigs. And by the 15th, it hit
Hentak Kaki. It was the army shot. Yeah, I saw
that one. And when I was cast for that, I don't
know why, somehow I said, I must get into this.
During audition, I must get into this. And I
got cast. I was, the entire body, like every
bodily cells was fired. Why? I can't explain.
Because, you know, it's so funny you said that
because I have this question here. What was the
initial why for stepping into acting? Curiosity.
Ah, that also. That curiosity. And she was, she
was generous. She, well, you see, it was an,
I believe, I hope, it's an honest positive. And
look where the, how much and how far the honest
positive has taken me. Yeah. Right now, I've
done over 400 productions. I got several awards.
I got, by now, quite a lot of short films and
episodes. They're remarkable, man. So, 100 productions.
Over 400. Holy crap. Some are small, some are
big. Over how many years? By now, 15 years. 15
years, 400 productions. Looking a lot, you know.
Yeah, yeah. At one time, I was... At one time,
if you stop me and check my back, right, there'll
be two or three scripts in different genres,
different directors, different languages. Different
shows. Different shows, yeah. So a different
language is a tough one. So my mind was like...
So you think that at that moment for Hentak Kaki,
you wanted to get casted. You wanted it so badly,
right, after the audition. Yeah. That when you
got it, you felt that every cell was exploding.
I was fired, yeah. Because you were fired up,
right? Couldn't we just say then that stepping
foot into acting, curiosity is one, but actually
there was maybe this deep -seated root of passion
for it. Yeah, there is, there is, there is. It's
just that you don't know. It's not conscious.
Yeah. So it was really accidental, wasn't it?
For you discovering, first of all, talent and
what I love to do. So between cybersecurity and
acting. Okay, cybersecurity. You know my question.
Cybersecurity, you have to jump over more hoops
to get that satisfaction. So for instance, cybersecurity,
if you are a chief security officer, 51 % of
your work is office politics. That means getting
budgets. Sure. So, 51%. So, you have the 49 %
that if you are lucky, it might be something
interesting. And even that 49%, I think maybe
19 % will be operational stuff. Right. Your staff
just resign, you're going to get another... Typical
corporate bureaucracy and some operational stuff.
So, I think there are a few hoops to... jump
over before you get that satisfaction that satisfaction
is unique you have to it comes in a package the
boring stuff and then the exciting stuff whereas
film production again is different there is in
front of the camera and behind the camera right
so behind the camera as I've learned it's a lot
tougher I would think so it's a lot tougher a
lot of actors Walk me through it. Walk me through
it. Okay. Just take the example of a director
and an actor. Sure. And I've done roles where
I direct an actor. Right. And that's very difficult
because when you're in front of a camera, it's
fantasy. Right. Fantasy. In fact, more fantasy
better. You're totally in it. Which is more fun.
Yeah. And then cut and then you go and have a
rest. And usually on a set, you are treated the
best because you have to be in good shape, right?
Sure. When I was directing as well, then I was
in front of the camera was fantasy and the moment
cutness, logistics and stuff, real world, definitely
real world. So the flip -flopping in and out,
fantasy, real world, it's very tiring. Wow. And
I think a director has to do a lot of that even
if he's not acting in front of the camera because
in his mind's eye, he saw the whole thing played
before him. And you just have to get this actor.
Please do what I want you to do. Right? So the
admiration for people behind the lenses responsible
for the production. When you look at guys like,
I'm going to say Mel Gibson, he's been directing.
Clint Eastwood, all actors, been directing. In
recent times, even Ben Stiller started directing
as well. What's your opinion of these guys, of
these people, you know, as actors to directors,
the stuff they've produced so far? Oh, some of
the stuff they produce are very, very better
than when they were. Clean instrument, but tons
were different. Yeah, yeah. He was playing the
macho man. That was a spaghetti western. He'd
take a gun and shoot 10 people and he's not short
at all, right? And make my day, that kind of
stuff. So very macho stuff. But by the time he
retired and became a director, I think his stuff
is a lot deeper. Deeper. A lot deeper. Yeah.
I guess these people are talented and intelligent
to start off with. That's why they can pull off
such a thing being a director. But the fact that
you are, say, suppose just an actor moving into
directing, that doesn't necessarily mean that
you can be a good director. It depends on your
skill sets and your mindset and ability to visualize
and interpret scripts and so on. You were on
the award -winning Elo Elo. Yeah. There was some
controversy about that discovery. You know, you
know. Why? Wasn't there? Why? Was that the show?
Am I wrong about my facts? No, that is Wet Seasons.
Oh, okay. Elo Elo is a wholesome family. Shoot
me, Michael. Shoot me. I was wondering. How was
that, man? Did you enjoy that one? Okay, I do
enjoy that, but in a very perverse way because
recently it's directed by Anthony Chen. Okay.
And recently I chose to act for him again, even
if it's a small role. In fact, I told him I met
him in a networking evening. I said, hey, Anthony,
how are you? He said, what's the stress? It's
always like that. I said, why? Because my feature
film is happening. Any role for me, small one
also can. You speak Hokkien. Yes, on. Then he's
very good. He's so detailed. You take out his
phone. Sorry, I have to put it in my phone because
I don't want to forget this. And I got cast.
Wow. And my scene, he's very detailed. Movements
and dialogue, synchronization with the other
actor. He is so spot on. So my take was, sorry,
my scene, my shot, that shot, that scene has
two shots. The first shot, was a lot of people
moving, you know, in a coffee shop. That's understandable.
You need to have more shots. It's coordination.
Second shot is only me and that other guy. And
there was quite a lot. He was synchronizing positively.
He was synchronizing how I give that person and
where I look and how I say. Wow. I think that
was about maybe 25. 20 takes to that detail he's
very detailed how does one go to sleep man every
night with all that in his head he's tired now
but I chose to work with him because precisely
I want somebody like this to pick on me positively
so that I can grow did you go through any acting
training no but the way you talk yeah I'm very
well I'm also very detailed so you got were you
ever this detailed before prior to going to the
as I said As a cyber security person, you have
to be detailed. So it's suitable. That's the
correlation. Maybe I didn't think of it that
way. Maybe I'm also... Maybe that's the correlation.
Maybe not as detailed as Anthony Chen. That guy
is... I don't know how his brain be bursting,
I think. But he's probably been doing this far
longer than you have. Hasn't he? Yes, and he...
Has always been in the producing, directing arena.
He's very detailed. Maybe that's why. Yeah, I'm
trying to just discover the psychology behind
people because this is the I Love My Job series
on my show. Yeah. And I've spoken to so many
people from so many trades and professions, right?
Especially the tradies. And why do people make
change in their lives and their careers? You
know, especially in your 50s. In your 50s, you
make a mid -career switch. Not that you have,
but you... actually extended another arm of,
you know, of having a career as well. Like me,
you know, I mean, yeah, I do so many damn things,
but anyway, let's not talk about me. So, for
you, not even having to go for a formal acting
training, unlike me, I was put through that for
two months. Well, we were sponsored, so it was
great. You know, I mean, why should I go learn
something new? But you didn't. And yet, here
you are. Acted on Elo Elo. That movie won an
award. Then now the same director has put you
on for his new project, right? It's like Michael
Chua is this known person in that sphere of the
world. You know, this... He knows he's got the
acting chops. He understands behind the lenses
and in front of the lens. He knows what to do.
So you don't even have to go through anything
formal. What's it say about you? Was there ever
a steep, a real steep learning curve? I mean,
well, I told you I was one of the years I have
60 over gigs a year, which is more than one a
week. Just the intensity would be a steep learning
curve because every of the production is different
genre, different director, different story. Isn't
that stressful, man? Yeah, it was stressful.
But you enjoyed it? Yeah. I enjoyed it immensely.
So it can't be stressful. While there's a physical
strain, there is a physical time as well. Like
if you act for 17 hours straight on, right? I
was in an ad for Oral -B. It's told as a short
story. So I was made to smile like so many times.
I think 800 over times, maybe 17 of us. Because
they have to play it safe, right? Okay, smile,
no teeth. Smile, 20 % teeth. Smile, 50 % teeth.
So you keep doing, because it's an ad. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. It has to look good. I hope they
pay well for things like this. okay they paid
well but they didn't tell me it will be 17 hours
and I was stupid enough not to negotiate with
them before I go 17 hours of doing that I think
they didn't even know it will be 17 because maybe
they think it will be 12 right so it just went
on it reminds me it reminds me of the ad I had
to do not acting I do a lot of voiceovers and
for this particular commercial it was global
I won't mention which commercial on this show,
but it is a very big fashion brand. And it was
only six. Hang on. One, two, three. Two lines,
probably six words with one, three or four syllable
word. Mind you, the shortest lines are the toughest
because The entire nuance has got to be encapsulated
in a short space, right? Four syllables. Chris,
can you do the third syllable with a different
note? Excuse me? Okay. Chris, change my mind.
Can you do that on the second syllable instead?
Okay. Two and a half hours. Wow. And I tell you,
I was like, shit, I should charge more. And I
learned a very big lesson that the shorter the
lines, the tougher it is. That's a good tip.
Yeah. And if you get, especially if you have
a producer that's not local. That's a good tip.
Because next time they tell me, no, easy, only
four lines, four words. Two syllables, whatever.
I was in there. Bear that in mind, man. Bear
that in mind. Having appeared in over 400 productions,
mate. Spanning Film TV, YouTube, Cartoon Academy,
as you mentioned. Commercials, as you've just
mentioned. Orubi and Stage. Stage as well. Yeah.
I want to now... Do you a favor? I don't think
this is very updated, but I did edit, I must
tell you, you're the guy who produced that. I
did edit a small part of your showreel. So we're
going to play it right now for the benefit of
our viewer and listener. Here is my kitchen.
I'm looking for my auntie. No, last time my grandfather
gave away the baby to a Malay family, I looked
for her. I'm not a dog. Okay, you're not a dog.
You boji lah. When are you going to call me Boji?
Are you a US ranger or an airborne ranger? You
got or not? You damn Boji, okay? I'm the one
who dares to go out and do what I want, okay?
Look at me. I got family, house, car. What do
you have? Army only. Raj, army is my life, you
understand? Is everything okay, sir? Sir? Call
me when you need more money. Are you coming back
for reunion dinner this year? No, I'm not coming
home this year. Yeah, new job here. Maybe after
New Year, we'll see. Yeah, I'm really busy now.
Okay, bye. There are no side effects. I feel
steam all over my body. What's happening? I don't
know how to tell you this. There's no movement
in your lungs. Clinically, you're dead. I'm not
dead. I really don't know yet. But I suggest
you do your bucket list right. I won't let you
get away with this. You think I murdered my husband?
Well, you were even a zombie, man. I thought
I was bad, really, but you were a zombie, dude.
I got to tell you, when I found this, I had to
show it. I had to show it on this episode. I
told myself to do it, and that's the reason why
it was aired, right? The reason is because, I
mean, God, the myriad different roles that you
played, and everyone to a T. I'm not trying to
blow sunshine up your ass, because I'm not that
kind of guy, but really. from the taxi driver.
And you know that scene when you gave the money
to the guy who played the character, Roshi's
son? And then after that, you call him up and
all that. You know, the thing about good acting
is when whoever watches it actually gets it and
feels it. And it's an extension to your emotions.
There's a relatability. And I felt it, man. And
when you say the army is my life, You know, that
was a, wow, damn good, man. I mean, I love that.
That was really damn show. It's very nice to
watch, frankly. It's amazing. It's really, and
for a guy who hasn't been formally trained, and
I, the one thing that I didn't show is the stuff
you've been doing on Titan Academy on YouTube.
Now, we've seen the, one was a media co -op,
which is mainstream, then the rest are also in
the movies, like, you know, you know. How, Does
the acting process or the satisfaction you derive
differ between these platforms? Preparing for,
for example, a viral YouTube hit different from
a Cannes feature film. Right. Let me take you
through and the audience who are not in this
industry. Yeah. Acting is living sincerely under
imaginary circumstances. Okay. And you do that
by getting into character. Okay. And that means
you have to research on the character. You study
how and you try how he speaks, how he moves,
his body language and so on. So you do that until
it becomes second nature. But yet on set, not
everything is subconscious because you still
have to be conscious. For example, you have to
remember some technical requirements of moving
to the center of the stage, for example. X number
of meters away from the camera or favoring the
camera like this, which is not a natural way
of standing. So there is the conscious and subconscious
part. Sometimes you even have to hop over wires,
right? Michael, be careful after that. Don't
trip. Yeah. So you're hopping in and out. despite
doing that, if you can have it seamlessly done,
you will make the emotional connection with your
audience. And if you're That's key. It's just
the only thing. Because if they have that emotional
connection, imagination runs wild in their head.
So they are suspending sense of disbelief. They've
forgotten that this guy is acting. His son is
really bad. So stuff like that. Then the magic
happens. You know, two things here. One, For
a guy who was not formally acting trained, what
you just said, that was acting according to my
couture, right? Well, it's universal. You think
it's universal, but you can write a book, man.
I mean, just write a damn book about that. And
the second thing, I was watching you. It was
so natural to you that as you were explaining
it, you were looking directly at your camera.
And I was looking at the preview screen. I was
going, ah. So this is, you're so used to that,
right? Don't you? The moment that you know that
that's your cam and then you're presenting, you're
looking straight in your camera. Okay. Acting
like photography is a relationship of camera
acting. It's a relationship if the camera. Right.
So even if you acted very well, but relative
to the camera, it's not, doesn't look good. It
doesn't pass. Right. the fact is that you are
squeezing a multi -dimensional world into a two
-dimensional camera. So there's some squeeze
there. So there has to be compensation to make
it look good, correct and good in the camera.
The role of acting according to Michael Charman.
You really got to write a manual on this. Let's
talk about money. As aspiring actors, I mean,
everywhere in the world, man, not just here,
man. I mean, if you read stories about people
like, what's his name now? I think it was Robin
Williams who was roommates with, roommate with
the late Christopher Reeve as well, Superman.
These guys were like, you know. Actors in the
US always end up being waiters and serving staff
while they're doing the acting school and stuff.
Everyone struggles on their way up towards stardom.
And these are financial realities, isn't it?
So based on your experience entering the industry
later than most of your contemporaries probably
in the acting world, what practical advice can
you offer on making acting a viable profession?
You have to tell me, first of all, viable or
not. Especially outside the mainstream channels.
How do you navigate the income, the aspects of
income? I think if I answered this question 20
years ago, it would be an easier answer because
now technology is coming in. Already here. Yeah,
the industry is being segmented. So you have
the high -end. acted by human beings high class
movies then you have streaming you have free
to air then you have online and in the commercials
in the very low end where there's no brand sensitivities
and so on they can they can use AR to generate
so some of the work will be, of course, some
work are created. Say, for example, previously,
if you are selling zuca or something like that,
you didn't need to have an advertisement, right?
But now, since you can just ask your son to animate
it, you do it. So, it creates a new segment,
but it also takes away some of the businesses
from work. Yeah, take away work, yeah. So, it
is different. There are also technologies coming
in that will make the work different, digital
technology, LED backdrops and so on. So it's
quite hard to say how the industry will grow
or shrink. Advice won't be different from the
usual, be very careful, be very passionate. And
if you think that working hard is enough, that
means you're wrong already. It takes more than
working hard. to be very good at presenting yourself
in the market as well. Platinum Academy that
you've gotten to YouTube, as you mentioned earlier,
length, was there any specific reason why you
decided to do something on YouTube, on the digital
level? Yeah, good question. Actually, I was very
careful at that time. What happened was that
I acted in a short film that was directed by
one of the... YouTubers in the same place, same
studio. And after that, they liked my work and
when they started this series, they called me
up and I was thinking, hey, you know, is it risky
because I'm a so -called mainstream actor and
I'm going into YouTuber space and I look at some
of the YouTube videos, they are all books and
asses, right? So, it's not my favorite things
yeah okay yeah it's not clever it's not you know
it doesn't may not fit then I look at their work
I mean Jin Hao's work I said yeah it's family
friendly so I gave it a try right and of course
it's different how different is this okay in
terms of the acting Okay, the genre affects the
acting because the genre is more manga style.
Yeah, I realize, yeah. It's funny and ridiculous,
funny and you know, stuff. So it's manga style.
So I am the chief antagonist. Right. I am a nasty
person. I am a corporate raider. I bought over
the school and changed all the rules to make
life hard for most of them. just for profits.
So it is a very nasty person. So in a different
genre, say in Wall Street, Wolf of Wall Street,
kind of genre, it'd be really socially realistic
kind of genre. But this is a manga genre. So
the character that I play, Mr. Allen, has to
be nasty by always saying something smiling and
sarcastic. So you go to some frightened student
and say, happy, that kind of stuff. So, I have
to change the style to fit into that genre. Say,
there are some scenes where we punish the students
by shaving off their hair. So, I'll be exaggerating
and I'll be blowing into the shave. So, exaggerated,
very exaggerated, big movements and big expressions
and laughing out loud. So, how different is that
compared to, say, acting from mainstream? Same
number of cameras, same type of cameras, broadcast
cameras or simple cameras. Mainstream is too
broad now. So if you go into TV stations, TV
stations are factories. They have to produce
a lot of dramas in a short time. So it'd be a
lot of cameras. Okay, we can patch this with
that, that, that. So there isn't a lot of satisfaction
if it's too factory -like. So, Titan is less
because it's a smaller space. Less equipment
and stuff. No, they have substantial equipment.
So, they still use substantial equipment for
YouTube. Yeah. Titan is a YouTube premium, I
think. Yeah, okay. They have two cameras now.
It's properly run. They have two cameras. They
have a script supervisor. They have a cinematographer.
They have a director. Wow. They have a line producer.
They have art and costume. No makeup, I don't
know why. So it's almost like a usual film. It
is, it is. Except they know that they are catering
for a group which is very young. So it has to
be ridiculously funny. Yeah. It has to be family
friendly so that the parents won't stop them
from watching. Yeah, so that adjustment isn't
very different from Mediacorp, except it's better
because... Can I say that? They're more friendly.
Sure. Yeah, I know what you mean. They're more
friendly. All the meals are bento boxes. Wow.
Not polystyrene boxes. Okay. Bento boxes and
good stuff. Used to be bento boxes, by the way.
Is it? Oh, yeah. Oh, dear. And then if you compare,
of course, if you compare to Anthony Chin kind
of standard, then it's different. Anthony Chin,
everything is art. Okay. Everything is art. Everything
is perfection. Whereas for YouTubers, if it flows,
it works. Youngish. Yeah, silly shit doesn't
matter. That's why I like doing podcasts. Silly
shit doesn't matter. Is there any, has there
been any specific role or performance that you're
particularly proud of and fond of? Yes, yes.
Okay, usually it's the more recent ones because
as you act, you improve as you go along. Or as
you produce, you improve as you go along. That's
it with experience. So there is a recent film,
short film called Rhapsody of Time. Okay. Which
is about a coolie who got into a gambling dispute,
fought, get into a coma and woke up after 60
years in Singapore. Wow. Yeah. So that one, I
did it entirely in Teochew, which is my dialect.
Okay. So I did it in Teochew because I was thinking
if my father is still alive today, what would
he think of Singapore and how he would react
to Singapore? So there are a few things, of course,
technology, blah, blah, blah, has changed after
60 years. And the nurse that is bringing him
around. doesn't speak Teochew although she's
Teochew only smattering of Teochew words and
then he says bring me bring me to town I want
to see because I see mobile phones it's just
phone I can't believe that brought to town and
the first thing he saw was what's this huge tree
building and a boat on top it says that this
is a casino casino so big Wouldn't the police
just come and catch them easily, right? It's
still very old thinking. There's no, this is
a government approved casino. No way. Lee Kuan
Yew, my hero, will never approve something like
this. So the disjoints and the change of values,
right? And also the fact that I get a chance
to speak Teochew. in the film. He won quite a
lot of awards. Oh, this one won awards. Speaking
of awards, Michael, let me just honour you now.
Can we please play the Best Actor award? Here
you go. Go for it, man. Actually, I didn't think
I would get this award, so I didn't prepare to
say anything. I can only say thank you to everyone,
thank you to Mr. Ping Pang. Thank you! So tell
me about that, man. This award that you won here,
this one. Yeah, this one is the Rhapsody of Time.
Oh, that's the one you won the award for this
show? Yeah. Just as the story you were telling
me about. Oh, wow. And that guy that gave away
the award looks like the former president of
Tony Tan. Yeah. Was he? No. No? Is there a definition
of success as an actor? Yes, to tell stories
that make positive influence on people's life.
To me, that is the success of an actor. Okay.
How about directing then? Directing is the same,
but it is a heavier responsibility because you
are the one that steers the direction of the
story and the depth of the story. Okay. An actor,
no matter how difficult, you are in charge of
yourself. The director is in charge of so many
things. Oh my gosh, yes. The University of Newcastle,
the Singapore campus, you're teaching there.
What do you aim to impart to your students? To
learn things hands -on as quickly as possible
in small bites. So, in today's world, everybody
has camera in the pocket right the mobile phone
right and the old way of teaching is still to
teach you a lot of principles then you have a
shot in mid okay right that may be one term right
and I think that's passe because for instance
when I teach them about framing visual framing
right okay symmetry one third rule repeated patterns
a frame within a frame and so on right so when
I teach that I talk about that for half an hour
then another half an hour videos to illustrate
because when I talk even draw diagrams it's not
as clean so thankfully nowadays good YouTube
videos another half an hour and that's it that's
enough of the theory then for the next two hours
I'll get them into groups to go outside the campus
and take photographs and 10 second, 20 second
videos based on the principles I've taught them.
And I say, I'll be going around to ask you questions.
And if you don't know how to answer, that means
you didn't understand anything I taught. But
so far that hasn't happened. And if you give
your opinions that are different from mine, doesn't
mean you're wrong because you are able to explain
based on the principles. You can't be wrong.
So you're an adjunct. Adjunct, yeah. And you,
You yourself didn't go through formal acting
training, but through the years, the 15 years
of acting, because of your experience, the university
had you to teach. Yeah, yeah. When I was at the
interview, I told them, look, I don't have a
drama degree. I don't have a film production
degree. I have a cybersecurity degree. the interviewer
look at my CV and say no you're more than qualified
and I was I was stunned nobody tell me that before
usually they say you're over qualified or not
qualified right and yeah well that's fantastic
isn't it but I think something as practical as
acting and film production experience counts
more because I've seen some lectures like elsewhere
and It's just too theoretical. And then they
break the practice so far away. My practice,
after one hour, they get to practice it. And
they get feedback. They get feedback from themselves.
They get feedback from me. And then I'll show
their fragments of work in class as a post -mortem.
And they can enjoy it, right? Right. So what
do you personally gain from this teaching? I
think I have to share my stuff before I die,
I suppose. One day we are all going to die. So
it's a legacy. So to share. No, legacy means
they have to remember. By leaving it behind is
for people to remember and carry forward. It's
also legacy, right? Yeah, kind of, yeah. So that
they, especially, I find that the methods of
teaching has to change. Teaching has to be more
experiential. It's not a sage on the stage. talking
down to students one direction it has to be experiential
yeah and of course you still have to teach them
principles that should be as short as possible
after that should be break up to practice and
let people just get wet get the feet wet and
today you can do that easily and cheaply because
technology is in your pocket literally yeah You
don't have to check out equipment after that
lost equipment, pay up, you know, shuffle six.
Hopefully one day, you know, as I get, as I grow
up, some university will say, Chris, can you
teach us? You should, you should, you should.
I don't know, man, whether that ever happened.
I teach, but I teach private students, so. Moving
on. What if, Michael, that Facebook photo didn't
lead you or hadn't led you to acting? what do
you imagine your career and life path might really
look like now? Well, I guess I'll never know.
Just imagine it. I mean, you're an actor, you
imagine it. Would you have found another creative
outlet? No, I think I'll imagine that I'll go
back to Europe and continue to become an independent
consultant. For the cybersecurity arena. The
reason why I'm staying here and not going to
Europe and why the technology pays a lot more,
I believe it. Because if I'm in France or Belgium
and all those countries, the chances of me being
able to act is very slim because you're required
to speak French and if they need somebody to
speak French, they can find a Vietnamese local
born, whatever, even Asiatic face. So that's
the reason why I stay in Singapore mainly. Okay.
You wrote a book, your novel, called Made in
Singapore. What's all that about? And what prompted
you to write that book? I collected a lot of
stories verbally from maids and security guards,
employers, etc. And I find that these stories
are not always very just. the mates are always
on the receiving end unfairly usually I do not
want to make it as a documentary and it'd be
too social realistic and too painful to watch
so I make it a comedy and throw in some love
and it becomes a romantic comedy and that's the
purpose to highlight some of the things that
happens to mates so for instance there's an unwritten
rule that Security guards cannot date mates.
Unwritten rule. Is that right? Yeah. Security
guards that found dating mates, either fired
or posted elsewhere. What reasons? I don't know.
I don't know. Good grief. And some places, they
don't allow mates to use the swimming pool. Yeah.
Yeah, stuff like that. Lots of places actually.
I make it as a comedy. Okay. How did you do that
publication? Moderately. I mean, I didn't have
any budget for publicity. In fact, National Library
Board was very nice. They wanted to help me launch
for free. Wow. But it was COVID and then they
came back and said, no, we can't do it. You also
enjoy making tropical fruit wines, fusion dishes.
I do that too. Oh my God. I mean, all these things,
you know, the book, the creating tropical fruit
wine and fusion dishes, writing, culinary arts,
they connect, do they connect for you or inform,
you know, sort of help you out in your creativity,
fulfillment consulting? Yes, yes, yes. Because,
Every batch of wine is different. Every fruit
is different. Even if you buy from the same vineyard,
every season is different. So you really have
to kind of feel the fruit. And then as it ferments,
you have to recognize, for example, the amount
of bubbles. When is the bubble going to die?
You must not let the bubble die totally because
then fermentation stops and it's not going to
work. No, it's not going to work. And it becomes
vinegar. Yeah, so you have to, a lot of judgment,
subjective judgment, and that's art. The fusion
part is that sometimes I try out things, for
example, the papaya wine, when it's very young,
say, I think generally, Papaya wine? Yeah, that
one's a good one. Generally, after four days,
then it starts to produce alcohol. Wow. Yeah,
normally. So if you have Muslim friend, you ask
them, hey, come and get before day four. I have
a friend always come for my ginger wine, but
before day four. So because before the alcohol.
Yeah, then I say you drink before day five. So
anyway, when it's very young, the wine is sweet.
You know that, right? Young wines. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. So the papaya wine, when it's young, it
still retains the papaya taste and is sweet.
And I can make it thick. I can adjust that and
make it thick. And then I use it as salad dressing.
Oh, fantastic. Nice. So there's still a bit of
alcoholic taste and papaya taste. My goodness.
You're really a detailed guy. Fantastic. You
really love the details. Detail after many failures.
You got to experiment. When you experiment, you
fail this. Of course, of course. So all these
things, everything's got to do with your right
brain. And a lot of you left as well because
of the full detail. I think it's mixed. You have
to be logical. You have to be logical. Resources
are limited, so you have to plan carefully as
well. What continues to excite you most about
the diverse work you do every day? Everything
is so diverse, including your interests. I suppose
excitement has to be surprises. Of course, if
I tell you boring stuff like I used to tell stories
that impact people, that's true, but... If there's
no surprises, it's less exciting, right? So when
there are surprises that come in, for example,
that Rhapsody of Time, I show it to Singaporeans
and they can either, they relate to it because
casino and all that. Then you'll choose it. And
then I show it to a Filipino girl. And after
that, I asked for her feedback. She kept quiet.
She say, Actually, it's quite sad, isn't it?
I said, what's so sad? So he set off from China
and told the mother he's going back. And in the
end, he didn't even send money back and mother
died and he didn't achieve anything. So she saw
a different perspective of the story. Wow. Yeah.
I didn't expect that. I wouldn't have expected
that either. But because she's not Singaporean,
she doesn't relate from the main gist of the
story. She sees it as something else. But what
she saw is even more generic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think it's kind of powerful still. I think
it's because most Filipinos are still working
abroad. Correct. So she can relate that. Yeah,
maybe. So you see, everyone's set experiences
will see things from... from their own mind's
eye you know they get they get a message that
only they can relate to so these are the kind
of surprises quite cool I showed it to American
army people and I was surprised they didn't understand
the Singlish of course they understood the story
they say I've seen many people like this in the
US army the career soldiers who really all Absolutely
committed to being at home. So I love to have
all these continuous small surprises coming in.
Makes life very interesting. Even Titan Academy,
I think there are some surprises too. How much
do you believe, okay, let me just rephrase it
this way. Does it pay to dream, Michael? You
mean financially? No, dream. Oh, does it pay
to dream? Yes, yes, yes. Why do you say that?
Well, then I get to walk a path that I want to
and it's a beautiful path. So, is there a reason
why you're going to do this? Because we're going
to end the show right now. Is that the reason
why you did this and this is how we're going
to end the show? And before we end the show,
Kai, don't go yet. Don't be trigger happy. You
said dream. Does it pay to dream? We're going
to play something to end this episode, people,
of Michael. performing something about dreaming.
And that's how we're going to end today's episode.
And next week, you will find that we'll come
to the last episode of the season. That's it.
That's going to be the end of season five. And
we will end the show with the first... and only
episode for this season of the UFO Reveal Asia.
And that one's going to be called The Age of
Disclosure. And I'm going to have my ufologist
back, Ignatius Bong. So join us for the season
finale next week as well. And in studio with
me, Michael Chua. Thank you very much for being
here with me. Thank you so much. And this is
Chris Hansen. You guys take care and see you
soon. Bye -bye. Bye. Play it now, Kai. Let it
rip. Three, two, one. dream dream dream dream