It's true, isn't it? So you want to grow a business in Singapore, you got to go that way.
No, yeah. It is how it is. Unless you disagree.
It is what it is. It is what it is.
So I think-
YAWN.
Well, it is what it is, right? Because if you want the pitch, right? So for example,
last November, we became the first wrestling company here to be sponsored by the PA through
the CCs. So we ran an event at Jurong Spring Community Club for like 300 people.
How did that happen? Okay, man. Thanks for being on the show, man.
No problem. It's good to be here.
Yeah. Good to have you around again. You know, I mean, the last time the two girls were here,
Sarah and-
Ming Rui.
Ming Rui. Thank you very much. I'm just so bad with Chinese names.
That's okay.
And sorry, Ming Rui. Don't scoop slam me.
She'll make you do a handstand.
Handstand.
I recall that was the catchphrase for the day, man. Handstand.
I don't know how that happened, but that became the catchphrase.
Well, as conversations would go, you know, sometimes things take a different turn,
which is quite nice actually. So that's why we say we have authentic conversations.
But Greg, you know, I decided to call this series of I Love My Job
for you specifically as that one from desk to drop kicks.
Oh.
How true is that?
Amazing. That's poetic.
Really? Great.
It's very true. Great.
I think when you talk through the background as well, you probably get a sense of like,
it really is desk to drop kicks and back to desk again.
And back to desk again.
Yeah. Cause that's the bulk of my job today. So we can talk about that too as we go.
Because the bulk of your job today, because you're here today,
my invitation as the business owner of a pro wrestling outfit, Grapple Max.
And that's the reason why you're here. It's not so much about the discipline of wrestling,
because we talked about a lot about that already with the two ladies.
We did.
But I just want to know more about the business end of it, you know, and your journey into that
and how it's been like, and what exactly do you think you can get out of this? Because I mean,
if it's going to be something like to me, pardon me, no disrespect. Yeah. Chris,
leave a full-time job and go into something and do something that could just,
most people would think be a monumental fuck up.
Yep. Yep.
And you end up going, regretting it for the rest of your life.
Did you have any of those thoughts, man?
I mean, I think it's a good question.
I mean, you regretting it for the rest of your life. Did you have any of those thoughts, man?
All the time, even now sometimes.
Really?
You never know, right? I think it's been a very long journey to get to this point.
In fact, I only really went full-time into this about two years ago.
But there's a very long journey before that of running this as a side hustle,
before arriving to the conclusion that the only way for this to go where we
want for this to go was to take this full-time and just drop everything else.
And the reason why you decided to go into full-time, what was going through your head?
Was there an internal dialogue that made you decide that this would be the right time
or is it the right time, could be the right time to go into this full-time?
What was the motivation behind it? What's going through your head?
Yeah. I think you never really know when's the right time to go and launch a startup
proper, especially if it's something which is like people are talking about all your sexy,
deep tech crypto, things which are very high potential for investment.
Whereas we're going down to like brick and mortar, not just that, but entertainment,
not just that, but pro wrestling, not just that, but in Singapore.
Right? So which of these are going to be a very sexy investment down the line, right?
In fact, one of my core memories was when we first pitched this concept to an interested
investor or we thought interested investor, a friend of a friend.
So we sat at the coffee table, myself and my co-founder, Dennis, and we pitched the best
pitch we ever prepared. Like this was before we ran the school. It was just the idea of this
inclusive wrestling promotion. So he sat back and he went, okay, is that the pitch? I said, yeah.
He said, okay, so here's my take, just no offence, friend to friend. What's going to happen is you're
going to take my money. You're going to lose all my money. I'm going to lose all your money.
And I'm going to sue you for losing my money. You still want to proceed?
And I went, cool, great. What did you like about the pitch?
So that was roughly how the first pitch went. I think,
What happened with that pitch? Did he eventually do anything?
No, like we just never spoke again because I thought like he was ever really keen, I think,
on even discussing. I think it was more a case of he wanted to lecture a bunch of kids about,
oh, this is what real wrestling is.
You know something? I really hate people like that, man.
I might be wrong if he's hearing this now, but maybe if you're right, if you're wrong,
come back and talk to me about it.
I mean, if you don't want to just say you don't want to tell him, it's fair for him to say,
you know, whatever he said to you, it's kind of fair. It is.
It is. It is.
Yeah. But if the intent was to be there just to lecture a bunch of kids,
I think that's really not on, man.
Yeah. And I say that with no hard feelings. I think it really was very true at that point in time
because we had no product. And this ties back to your question about how did we know it was
the right time or we thought it might be the right time. So just for context to your listeners,
right. I've been running startups concurrently with Grapple Max for about six years
prior to doing this. So we founded the company in 2016 and we told ourselves, okay, this won't pay
me like a full-time job salary anytime soon, but if we can at least get it off the ground,
after one year, we're still here and we have some proof of customers.
Okay. Let's go. I'll go and get a regular job again and let this run as a side hustle.
Okay. So that happened. So 2016, we opened it. 2017, I went back to
working and I went deep into startups.
Okay. When you say deep into startups, that's plural, man. You mean the other startups besides
Grapple Max.
So I think all this was even before all that. Okay. So just for context, I was in Changi Airport
group for five years prior to the wrestling journey. So there I sort of learned, you know,
basically how to run like big national level companies. So I was doing like leasing for the
terminals and eventually I was helping to start up the Jewel Changi Airport project.
Wow.
Which is cool, right?
Yeah.
So I think that also brings a lot of experience, but it also brings a lot of, okay, a lot of red
tape. And like, you know, when you're such a huge company with huge responsibilities, you can't be
particularly risk seeking, which is great for our airport. I know you want to risk seeking airport,
right? But at that point in time I thought, okay, but I do want to be in a place where I can afford
to fail and maybe even fail spectacularly because I want it to grow. Right? But over there you can't
afford to. You can't. It's allowed me to fuck up for a while because it's the airport. You can't.
Right. So then I began this, this wrestling journey.
Yeah.
And then 2017, I started working on startups. So I was in the pre-series A stage startups. So I was
usually helping out in terms of sales and marketing leadership strategy. So I moved from,
I was in a gig economy, like matching startup. So helping like employers find part-time workers.
Right.
Then we moved to, or I moved to an ad tech company. I moved into fitness. When back to ad tech,
uh, raised about 1.8 mil for that company. Then went to my last one, which was Ninja van.
Right.
So I was there for a year, but throughout this entire time, I was also running Grapple Max on
the site as a side hustle. And I think what I found over time was that it was quite frustrating
because I felt like, you know, why am I always tired and frustrated at both sides? I'm getting
annoyed at the main day job, but also I'm not getting what I want from the wrestling company.
So for the last few months in Javan, I also had a startup leadership coach. So she was like,
you know, having calls with me like once a month and so I'm like, okay, how are you doing? What's
happening? You hired a coach. I did. I did. So I was referred to her through a friend,
through the entrepreneurship scene. And I think what we kind of came to a realization on my site
was that perhaps you're so frustrated because you're spending all your time helping these
entrepreneurs who are like you, you're around your age, around your maturity experience level.
You're helping them to grow their startup series A seed stage, but at the expense of your company.
Right. Right. So, and you're frustrated. She said you were, were you frustrated?
I was super frustrated. She was. She was. So I do owe her a lot of gratitude, I think,
for helping me realize that. I think I knew it all along, but I just didn't want to face the fact,
which is, you know, in the end, the conclusion was, no, you have to do this full time, but you
can't possibly, cause this is not some idea we had like on the back of our heads, but I think
of a napkin, Hey, wouldn't it be cool mom and dad, if I was to start a wrestling company, right? By
that it's been six years, six years, we've run by that point, like, you know, 40, 45 events. We had
a sustainable list of members, but we were stuck because nobody was watching this full time,
because that person who should be doing it was busy doing something else. So in early 2023,
I decided to go all in. So I left Ninja event and went deep into, okay, now I'm full time.
I can't screw it up anymore. Right. How do we build a two year plan at least to get us to show some
proof of wrestling can be a real company in Singapore. Right. Yep. And it has been two years
full time, but been around since 2016. So it's been nine years in total. Yes. Eight plus nine.
Yes. Almost nine. What kind of growth have you seen of the two years you've taken on this full time
versus the seven years prior to this? Has the growth been, does it show that it really is working
with you being there full time? Well, it has in some ways and not in other ways. I think the biggest
surprise to me was that we increased revenue year on year by a significant amount, but we actually
reduced our marketing spend also year on year, which is kind of like the marketer's dream. Right.
So marketing went down 20%. Now revenue went up like 60% year on year. That's good. Pretty cool.
Right. So I think that's so numerically, I think to get it out of the way. Yes, there was some
growth in terms of the numbers that mattered. I think what we saw, the main difference really
was that the first six years we were always in a shared space. Right. So we were paying like a
profit share kind of rental to spaces that were not our spaces. Right. So we moved from our first
space was a circuit training gym in our unit. We moved to a Muay Thai gym. We moved to a gymnastics
gym, surrounded by kids and angry parents who couldn't stand these adults who were making noise
and slamming each other and teaching their kids to be violent. They thought, and we thought at
that point in time, okay, hang on. Like we asked the community, we asked the wrestlers, we asked
the trainees and everyone said, actually what we're missing is a space to call our own. So that was
the first change we made. So after I went full time, we went searching for places to set up.
And so the whole goal was can we build a place that the region needed, which could serve as the
home of pro wrestling. So everything happens here. The training happens like five days a week. Once
a month, we convert the place into a production studio to do our wrestling shows. Just this
morning, we just had a community event to sit down and watch the latest WWE big event together.
Right. So the whole idea is as long as you have some connection to pro wrestling, you don't have
to be necessarily a wrestler or even the crew. You can be a super fan. You can be some host. Just
want to hang out with other wrestling fans. And we want this space to be a place where you can
be a pro wrestler. And we want this place to be like that. And we think that drove the growth.
When you started this business, let's go back a little bit, nine years ago, when you started this
business, there must have been, you see the means justify the ends. You must have started with an
end in mind. There must have been objective objectives. If you don't mind me asking Greg,
could you name maybe three? Because I want to understand your motivation. Now look, listen,
I've known a lot of people in this five seasons and a lot of people have done mid-career change
and everything. And I recognize one seed, which is something that I'm not going to be prodding on
today with you. And that one seed is very simple. If you decide, if a guy decides to move from what
he's comfortable, entrenched in, into something else and then grew that new life and a new career
and a new business, always stems from either the satisfaction of the workplace, politics of people,
really being like kind of smug bullies we can have in this country is like any other country.
We are no different from anyone else. And then you decide, I can't shut up this, I'm getting out of
this thing and I'm out of this place and I'm going to do what I either love or learn to love. What
I'm learning to love. Now I admire more so the people, not the ones that could learn to love,
because I think eventually they'll still find something that they've suddenly discovered.
I actually love this all this time. And that would have been something so innate, right?
You're born with that thing. And that's why I don't want to prod in that so much because
you're doing this simply because you have passion for wrestling as a, can I say art form?
You should say art form. Okay, I should say art form. Why should I say art form?
Because it is, it is an art form. Why?
Well, I think it is to who we're talking to. To some people it's a sport. And I'm very candid
about this because like, you know, like honestly in Singapore, it's still so new. Sports don't want
us. Arts don't always want us to. So that was initially a blocker to us. And we thought actually
that's turned into a strength, right? So if you want to say at the sports expo, hey, we're a sport.
You want us to be at the Singapore night festival, we're an art. And we'll do a version of it.
And I think that's fabulous, isn't it? I think it's a great place to be.
Yeah, it's a great place to be. We sort of turned a negative into a positive for us, you know.
But I think back to your question before I sidetracked you on the art form part.
Sure. You're asking me about basically-
So it's not about the passion, but you started a business as a business, as a business person,
as an entrepreneur that, you know, I've certainly got objectives in mind, right? Can you name me the
three biggest objectives when you first embarked on this? Besides the fact that you went, told your
partner, I'm going to get myself a job and then, you know, earn a living and still, you know, be
involved in this business and grow it. Then you decided years later that I'm going to go full-time
because you realize it's better for me to do this full-time. Otherwise, it's not really going to
grow. You must have had objectives. What would you say today? Let's put it this way, okay? To say,
potential investor who's got a million bucks to throw into you, into your business, right? And
you're going to pitch it to him. What would excite you would eventually also excite him, isn't it?
Right. Because they're all shareholders like you. You're a co-founder of the company and then you
got shareholders. Everyone has got to be aligned on some kind of objectives, right?
Of course, of course. So what would that be? If you were to pitch this today,
this is your opportunity, man. I've got 70,000 people listening.
No pressure at all. Well, I think the biggest goal for us, of course, was to build a sustainable
market for pro wrestling. Right. Before we came along, just for context again, because I know
wrestling is very new to a lot of listeners. You know, before we came along, pro wrestling was
always, if you want to be involved in pro wrestling, you kind of have to kind of want to become a
professional wrestler, right? You got to be a particular type, particular level of mental
strength. And you're going to watch a wrestling show, you must be a wrestling fan. So the first
thing we did was can we expand that market? Right. If you have any passing interest in trying pro
wrestling, we want this to be that safe first experience with trying it. If you're looking for
an alternative sport, if you're shopping around for MMA, rock climbing, bouldering, whatever it is,
right? Why can't pro wrestling be in that conversation? So the first part was how do we
create a product which would appeal to someone who is not an aspiring WWE wrestler. And we've done
that. The second part is the shows themselves, which is the other product we produce. So obviously
people who train perform on the shows. Shows again in Singapore used to be very like tedious, long
affairs, three hours of wrestling and wrestlers you probably don't know much about, right? You're
just going there to see people get slammed and maybe sometimes bleed or, you know, shout stuff
at people. And we thought, no, but we want to create something which not just the wrestling fans
would come for, but something which their friends and family would come for. Right. Right. And people
who are looking for, you know, some people obviously we go for nights out at bars, they go out for
restaurants. Why not make a wrestling show part of that option? Okay. And we've seen that too,
right? So we really built the product for not just the wrestling fans, but for them to bring along
friends and family. I mean, Chris, you're a wrestling fan, right? Yeah. I think the hardest
part sometimes is maybe not for you, but it's to bring people along to a wrestling show. Yeah,
right. And give them something which you are proud that you have brought them here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It's as good as I told the two girls that came here the last time. I brought my son to
Raw, WWE Raw. It was at SmackDown. My wife brought me ringside seats, you know, years and years back
at SmackDown, right? But if I were to ask a friend, hey, you want to go watch Raw? And he'll probably
look at me and say, are you kidding me? You're out of your bloody mind? Did you get that shit here?
I think we used to, right? And that's exactly what we wanted to fix, which was-
Right now at this moment. Well, I'm sure we do, right? But I'm sure it's a lot less now because
of the people we're working with these days, right? We're seeing corporates come to us,
companies come to us. And I think going back to what the objectives are, we are now seeing
after eight years of doing this and two years of doing it full-time, we're now seeing hints of
traction. Right. I won't say it's guaranteed traction, but like I said, right, revenue is up,
marketing spend is in fact down. So ROI is going up. But I think beyond the numbers,
what we're seeing is we're seeing more and more corporates, companies, events spaces come to us
saying, hey, we want pro wrestling here. Okay. If you asked me this question three years ago, right,
it was, I was pro wrestling. Oh, the MMA, oh, the fake one, right? Too violent, right? It's always
something that we get pushbacks three years ago. So I spent the last two and a half, three years,
like really heavily evangelizing that this, what we do is not about the violence. It's not what you
stereotypically see from the eighties or the nineties and, you know, girls in bikinis and
mud wrestling or whatever, that kind of stuff. I like.
Right. But you can't take that judgment, right? But you can't take that. You can't take that and
sell that to corporates. You can't sell that to say the people's association. But it's true. It's
true. Right. So you want to grow a business in Singapore. You got to go that way. It is how it
is. Unless you disagree. It is what it is. It is what it is. So I think, why AWN?
Cause if you want, if you want the pitch, right. So for example, last November, we became the first
wrestling company here to be, to be sponsored by the PA through the CCs. So we ran an event at
Jurong Spring Community Club for like 300 people. How, how, how, how did that happen? Did you guys
approach them or did they approach you guys? First of all, we took the Yorn approach.
The Yorn approach. Cause you have to, cause you have to show people
that you're doing something different, right? We're not just like a bunch of dumb,
I'm surprised that they actually open to it. I was surprised too. So you approached them.
Well, so basically, and this is cool too. So one of my, one of my wrestlers, a community member,
so he kind of went past the CC and he saw that they were hosting MMA, uh, Twin Elements.
No fucking way. Yeah. Right. So he, he cracked, they're doing this like combat sports here.
You should be. Oh shit. So honestly, I think what I love about this story is that it's two levels of
cool stuff. One is, it's my member who, who first reached out to make that, to make that work. Right.
So the next thing I knew, um, they wanted to talk to us and say, Hey, we want to keep building on
combat sports and you guys seem to be the biggest around. Can we bring you guys in to run an event?
And so we did it last year and the feedback was so strong because if you look around,
it was a free event and they covered the cost. Hang on. This is Jurong CC. This is Jurong Spring
CC. You know something, man, there's something about Jurong CCs, you know why? Because every
time I hear something cool happening, it's happening in Jurong. That's true. In the CC.
That's true. Like Kuma, Kuma actually had, they actually had Kuma, full on Kuma. I'm not talking
about the, the toned down Kuma. The new dirt, safer. Yeah. I'm talking about Kuma, Kuma. Okay.
And they actually had him on the show and he actually said this, Hey, you're okay,
you know, you're hired me today for what? That's interesting. So, so it seems to me that they,
they do dare to go a little further. Maybe the air is different there. I don't know, man.
I think so. I think they're eating plants and all that. Yeah. I think it smells of chocolate for
some reason. My army chem used to be there as well. It does smell of chocolate. You can never
figure out why. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Maybe if you're listeners know the answer. No, no.
It's in the comments. Dude, it's incineration plants. Man, come on. I mean, my car ended up
having, you know, funny marks on my, you know, my paint work. Okay. Okay. Okay. But anyway,
yes, I think Jurong, we did find a lot of interest and what they loved about it was that the
demographics was so huge. Yeah. Because I think CCs, they always want to try to be, to attract.
Did you manage to go beyond Jurong? So work in progress, so stuff which I can't announce today,
unfortunately. Oh, but it is a work in progress. There is a work in progress where I think basically,
I think what I can say today at least is the response was very strong. They were very happy
to see like number one, it was safe. There was no like extreme risks. No one was like bleeding.
There was no like, it was very focused on safety, right? It's very focused on what works for what
this market needs. But I have a different product to talk to you about, which is different from this,
but for this part of what we do, we focus very heavily on family-friendly safe entertainment.
Okay. Because if not, you can't grow. Yeah. Right. You want to do a pitch to an investor,
this has to be the pitch because you can't go and say, hey, we're doing-
You got to keep it so controlled so that you can grow.
We're doing like, we're doing Indie ECW, we're being cut with razor blades and thumbtacks. You
can't, right? No one's going to buy that in Singapore or in 2025 in this market.
Well, in the work, in the work, in, in, in workism, in society, in workism-
If you want to bankroll that product, I'm happy to talk to you about it.
But in our experience so far, I think we kind of know what works and also it does align with
what the company is building, which is building a place where everyone's welcome.
Okay. So, so what's the third thing then? The third part I think is, uh, events that go
outside of memberships and shows. So we're doing things like corporate engagements. So for example,
last year what we did was we did a baby gender review party, which is a kind of new concept,
right? So basically we were engaged to put two wrestlers in the ring. One was blue, one was red.
Okay. The winner is the gender of the baby. Simple concept.
You know, you've actually done that? Yeah, we did.
And, and okay, hang on. You should talk to my wife.
Okay. Okay. You don't know what she does, huh?
I do not. Okay, we'll take it offline.
Okay. This is already a great podcast.
Wow. Yep. Okay.
So we did that and then, um, then that, that went viral. So that was, uh, it first caught
fire on Reddit and then we were approached by like, I think it was at least six different news
outlets in the next 12 months. So you became, you could be, you guys could actually become like a
segment in a show program for a corporate event. Yeah, we could. And I'll tell you,
one of my big inspirations, uh, is pole dancing. What?
I'm going to pause for a second there. Right. Because so, so one of my early, uh, uh,
people I spoke to for advice was someone called Suzy Wong. So she, uh, I'm sure you know Suzy,
right? So, so she, she helped to bring pole dancing to Singapore and made it fairly mainstream
where I think they were doing performances in different places. Right. And so for us,
one of the goals was can we sort of take a similar path where this eventually goes in places like,
you know, corporate events and can you like just bring in the ring or rent our studio and do the
event there? Um, so we're currently in talks with, uh, uh, and, uh, okay, a company and they want us
to help them run part of their internship program, uh, as like a bootcamp using wrestling training to
teach the interns things like confidence and how to. May I ask which sector this company is in? Um,
no. Okay. It's a bit too soon, but I'll tell you offline. Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure how far down the,
the path of, uh, contracts with them. Okay. But they are involved in business in commerce
somehow, right? Yeah. Not, not into, okay. Yeah. So completely separate from what we do. I mean,
it could be an IT company, it could be that kind of thing. Right. Could be. Yeah. Okay. And I think
the point here is that what we're seeing is we're seeing more interest come from corporates, from
HRs saying, Hey, we want to bring wrestling in as maybe as. But is this part of your vision, man? I
mean, is it, is it part of the original vision you had when you started the business? So when I first
founded, uh, Grapple Max back in 16, what I did before that in between Changi Airport and starting
this was I went to Japan, which, uh, some might know, right. And wrestling has two main, uh,
markets, the U S and Japan. Right. So I went to Japan. So I was there for three months and what
the goal was to go there and see, okay, what is a true professional, mature wrestling market like.
Okay. So I went there and what surprised me was, so I was training there for like in like three
different dojos, like five days a week. But what blew my mind was wrestling was everywhere. Like
there were wrestlers, you know, faces on like, uh, the train ads, train commercials. There was
wrestling shows happening at carnivals in school halls. And he's not talking just about sumo, right?
No, I'm talking about pro wrestling. Like my kind of pro wrestling, right? Not sumo. Um, like there
were schools who have CCAs who encouraged their kids to. No, really? Yeah. Because it's been around
since, since, uh, since the fifties. Wow. So what I thought was, Hey, wouldn't it be cool, right? In
a country like Singapore to build a culture like that. So I think to answer your question, it is
part of the goal, which is how do we get to a point where it's such a big part of, of culture
and society where everywhere you look, you are no longer surprised to see pro wrestling. Actually,
you know, it's kind of interesting because if it just a toy a little bit of that concept in that
that you just mentioned about Japan and the school kids at the CCAs. If we go to the U S, mat
rest wrestling, even the high schools, it exists, right? And then you can even get into collegiate
level, get college scholarships, be through wrestling, not just football, NFL, not just the
football thing. I mean, I don't like them college football. Another whole other debate. Yeah. Um,
not soccer. Yeah. Yeah. So soccer is football. I think you have American listeners too.
I really don't give a shit, man. Okay. As long as the orange one's in charge, like I care. Yeah.
Okay. Um, um, yeah. And, and our schools don't have stuff like that. It's not a fact. A lot of
schools don't even have rugby say for the usual suspects. Yeah. R I R J S a, uh, uh, S a J C,
um, ACS, ACJC, right. Um, and, and yes, some of the colleges do have it, but you hardly hear the
names. Um, but you know who the usual suspects are. Yeah. Right. Uh, and usually the trophies get
tossed around amongst each other. Yeah. Um, that's the, the full contact kind of sport that they have
in schools. Yep. But this pro wrestling thing is an interesting proposition. Unless of course the
schools, you know, MOE and the Singapore school sports council turn around and say, but if that's
the case, we might as well just bring in mat wrestling instead of pro wrestling because that's
something that can go into the Olympics. Right. You know, yeah. I think on that point, I think
it's really about who you're, who you're trying to appeal to as well. Right. If you're talking
about going to Olympics, you're talking about sport, then sure. I think that's where mat
wrestling comes in. Yeah. Um, but I think where pro wrestling comes in and I think on a personal
note, right, a lot of what I learned that I apply in my, in my working environment, right. My
traditional working environment, right. Confidence, public speaking, eye contact, giving good handshakes.
I can't say, right. All that came from pro wrestling. But really, right. Because imagine
you're putting on a pro wrestling match, right? What are you doing? You're going out there in your,
in your spandex underwear, right. Which takes some level of confidence. I assume some level,
right. Once you go out there, sometimes you got a microphone, do a speech, do a promo in front of
like 200 people. Yeah. And usually that's live. You go wrong, you go wrong. Right. And the match
itself. So obviously I think I assume you'll know that this is the performance, like some might call
it a choreographed or fake in some cases. Um, but even then there are parts where you improvise
based on crowd response. Cause for us, the KPI is you cheer for me if I'm a good guy, you boo if I'm
a bad guy. Right. And if you don't get that response, work harder to make that response happen.
Right. But what really matters as a performer is when you, when you screw up the performance,
right. If you forget the script or whatever it is, right. The audience won't know,
right. They only know what is out there. And think about when you're giving a, you know, a speech or
a pitch or a sales presentation, right. It's the same thing, right. You fuck up your point. You
forget slide number 12's point about your year and year. That's interesting man. Screw it, right.
People only know what you put out there. Right. And everything that we took from pro wrestling,
we want people to realize that you can in fact apply it to real life. It's almost like a toast
masters with body slams. So I think just to wrap up this point, right. So yes, I think overall,
what we're seeing is pretty good. We should, we should, we should trademark that. Now it's out
there. See, I mean, anyway, now we've made a mistake. That was brilliant, man. Right. But I think it's
treating. So I think it's seeing memberships go up and seeing show frequency, right. And seeing
corporate interests come in a lot more than we had before we began doing. So it begins with all this
advocacy. I mean, you've got to really advocate for people to just kick, come on guys. I mean,
instead of going to the movies, instead of going for a happy hour thing, just come over and catch
an hour plus of our show. Yeah. Right. And enjoy yourselves. Yeah. Okay. But, but don't you think
that, you know, I mean, I can just hear the cynics, man. I can just hear, you know, you got lots of
those skeptics and cynics who would say, I'd rather pay to watch, you know, something that's
a lot more brutal or I'd rather pay to watch something that I'm not, I'm not to watch something
that's as rough as the WWE. But as you said, in this country's context, in order for you, for the
business to continue moving forward, you can't. Yep. Exactly. So there's no way you could mitigate
that at this time. Yeah. I think you go where the market's ready to go. Right. I think if they want
to see something more violent, I'll say, sure. Right. Go watch one. Right. Because you want to see
real, real fights, real blood concussions. The entire goal of MMA fight is to get the guy into
such a position of this combat. He taps out, right? Or he's knocked out. Right. Sure. There's a market
for that. But I think our bet here is that there is just the biggest market for what we do, which
is all the thrill of a fight, none of the risk. Okay. So basically, I can just sum this up for you.
Pro wrestling and what Grapple Max does is that these are shows. And this is really just
entertainment. Go there to be entertained. It is. Okay. And then on the sports and the healthy living
part of it, I'm curious about this part. I may be wrong, but you heard of Spartans? Yes, of course.
Yeah. In my gym, I mean, next to my gym, the neighborhood of my gym where I go to is,
there's a Spartans. And I see people of all shapes and sizes, man, you know, really of different
ages as well, different genders going there and they are, wow, the way they're wrapping their hands
around. It's like watching real boxers doing stuff, wrapping their hands and stuff. And then
they go there to train stuff here and all that. And they get under, there's a ring, big ring. They
get in the ring, but, and they're sparring and all that, but it's not really sparring. So I think
it's, that place is like, let's go there, keep fit. I don't think they have bouts and stuff.
Am I wrong? I think Spartans, they do run some tournaments, but I think what you're seeing
every day probably is not the bouts. Yeah. Yeah. It's like come in and get fit through boxing,
right? Is Grapple Max like that as well? Come in and learn how to do this.
It is. I think it has to be, right? So we were very inspired when we first started by obviously
things like Evolve. Back then it was, there was a brand called Vandervoxing Club on Shenton Way.
And they were focused very heavily on promoting. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That one. Yeah. It's like a
double height, metal nine. It's a really nice place. And we were very intrigued at how they
took what's traditionally seen as a very violent, potentially dangerous sport and made it into,
oh, this is for white collar workers. This is for regular people. Yeah. So for us, Grapple Max is
always meant to be that version for pro wrestling. Okay. Right. So I think even before talking about,
hey, come be a pro wrestler, right? That's a very small market to talk to. Right. But if you say,
hey, no, this pro wrestling teaches you all these different things and along the way, no pressure.
But if you love it enough, hey, maybe try a match. Maybe try two matches. Maybe, surprise, now you're
a pro wrestler, right? You can grow the market that way. And the overall goal for us was to raise
overall standards of safety and performance. Okay. And we could only do that by pitching to as large
a market as possible. Right. And that includes the fitness market. Right. Yeah. So that's why we run
things like we run workshops and classes like five days a week. And the classes are meant to be a
mix of not just the technique and performance, but also of course, things like cardio, flexibility,
how your body can move around. Pretty amazing because it's such a, I mean, it's so flexible,
you know, your business. It belongs to entertainment, as you mentioned. You say that it doesn't
belong to sport. It doesn't belong to entertainment. No, you're on the contrary. It does. It's
entertainment, it's sport, it's fitness. It's all that. And even media, roll all into one. Yeah. And
I think that's pretty remarkable. I just want to tell everyone here, cameras on me, right, Kai?
Yes. Okay. Everyone, please, this is not a sponsored episode. Grapple Max and Greg Ho did not pay me.
And I'm not blowing sunshine up their asses just because, or just because, just because, no,
I meant what I said. This is not a sponsored episode. Okay. And I think it's pretty remarkable
coming back to the point. And you guys started the business just $20,000. Yes. Yes. And now how many
members do you have? More than 40? Members, we have, yeah, I think about 40 or 45. 40, 45. Okay.
And then you also have had international shows. We have. Wow. So we were the first and the only
local wrestling company to run a full show in Japan. And all this, when you started, when we
started this conversation, we talked about that guy that I don't really like, you know, who gave
you that lecture, right? Oh, right. Yes. Okay. From that guy, and you moved on, did you move on? Did
you get more people invested into your business? We did. So we eventually grew the investment team
a little bit larger. So most of these were obviously for people who were already in the community.
So people who were being involved. Wait, wait, wait. Sorry, sorry. I got to stop you there.
What do you mean investment team? Sorry. As in people who are lists of investors, basically.
Okay. Okay. Shareholders. Shareholders, shareholders. Okay. I thought you started
the department that goes out there to hunt for funding. Kyvern recall the term shareholders.
Okay. How to pitch that. Don't worry about that, man. You maybe got knocked in the head yesterday.
No, I hope not. Anyway, so we brought more shareholders on board, but obviously we're
always finding ways to raise funds primarily because I'm still a one man show right now at
this point in time. So actually all the, all the improvements we've seen is basically run by one
guy doing it full time and a team of extremely motivated and talented volunteers. Right. And
then on an extremely bare bones marketing budget. So I think the challenge for us now is now that
we are seeing a lot of traction and a lot of interested collaborators, potential clients coming
in the struggle for us then is how do we then scale and not end up losing these potential leads
because you know, Greg can't cope with the volume. This is where we're trying to do like, you know,
grow the team, increase marketing budgets. And that's where we're looking to raise some funding
down the line as well. Right. Do you guys sell tickets? We do. Okay. And your ticket sales are
for your own space. Both. So the shows are in, okay. Okay. Let's go one at a time. You've got,
you've got your own space with your own ring and your own media all set up. So there is a particular
home for Graphical Max. There is. And you sell tickets for your shows there as well. Yes. And
okay. And so where is this? This is in Ubi. In Ubi? Yes. Okay. We call it the Ubi Dome affectionately.
Okay. Which part of Ubi? Ubi Avenue one. Ubi Avenue one, which building? Dude, just give the
address. 55. I assume it's going to be on the comment in the description somewhere. But sure.
It's a 55 Ubi Avenue one. Okay. Or you can just Google for Grapple Max for wrestling and you're
going to find it for sure. And how often do you have your shows? Once a month. Once a month? At
least. Okay. But that's increasing. Okay. So once a month there. Yes. But you were about to say,
tell me just now that there are also other venues. I think the exciting thing is we're growing the
shows as well in two ways. Right? So the monthly shows are sort of like, for those who watch
wrestling, these are like our raw, our Smackdown, like the regular shows. Okay. But we're also
launching, or in fact, we just launched our Academy shows. We call them the NWE showcase shows. So
these are like NXT for those who watch W2. So we have the Academy kids coming in and what we do is
we're worried that as the shows get bigger and bigger and bigger, we lose the original intent,
which was to give them a very safe place to start to learn live performing. Cause imagine you go
from training by yourself with no fans, jumping straight to a 200-packs performance. So it's like
if you train in Carrington, have your first few games in Carrington. Don't go traffic. Yeah.
Although now the main team also is playing like they're in Carrington. All the Liverpool people
probably switch off the damn episode right now. Lost interest right away. It's okay. I'm happy with
14 plays. It's fine. Whatever. Anyway. Yeah. So, so we have launched these Academy shows,
which run currently once every quarter on top of the regular shows. We also run shows outside.
Okay. And so for example, we mentioned last November's Jurong show, supported by PA.
We work with the projector cinema quite a few times. So we've done three times with projector
and this is what we call the Fight Club series. Okay. Right. So as the name suggests, these are
much grittier M18 alcohol is okay type of events. So very different. So these are usually like
MET shows. So we don't bring the ring to projector. We bring our METs there. Okay. So it's much more
grungy. Like the audience is super close. Sometimes like they're so close that your feet are like on
the ring. So it's as if it's like going for Fight Club kind of thing. Yeah. Right. When the audience
is just around you. Exactly. So they are at eye level with us and they are surrounding the action.
So it's a very different. It is right. For the wrestlers too actually. I think it's sort of like,
I always equated to going from like stage magic to up close, like a sleight of hand magic. Because
when you're so close, every angle, right, you can't throw your punches. You can't pull your
punches. Cause everyone can see, right? Oh, see, he missed it from so far. So it becomes a very
different skill set, but the feel is so different from the ring shows. That's a Fight Club one. So
it's a whole range of different shows based on what's the venue that we're doing these shows in.
But again, it's so pliable what you guys do that you can actually do this anywhere.
We could. You could even, you can even do one, let's say for example, I'm just going to let my
right brain go a bit wild. But if it's too good, yeah, right. Keep it offline. So we don't just
tell the whole world. Wait, wait, wait. You mean there are other pro wrestling outfits besides you?
The region's got a lot. Singapore's got three. Right. So I think what's exciting about the region
now is that everywhere you see, there are companies popping up to show that there is demand for this.
Okay. Yeah. So Malaysia's got two, right? Philippines, I just realized has got four.
Right. So I think again, back to the investor pitch, right? It's every country we're seeing now
has these companies popping up and attracting fans. So when the new investors, when the investors
after that guy started coming in, right? They weren't afraid. They didn't say the same thing
that guy did. No, not at all. What did they say? Okay. So I think it helps that two of the new
shareholders were within the team. So that's, that's okay. Okay. But the one who came from outside,
I'll clarify the question here. So I think the one who came in, what he loves really honestly was
he just liked the fact that we're creating some kind of impact on people. Like we are helping
people to create personal branding for themselves. So he's doing this for out of altruism?
Yeah. Cause I don't think, I think what you look for when you invest in something like a wrestling
company, right? You're not looking for super high returns equivalent to say investing in a much
higher, high growth, deep tech kind of company. Obviously we can't compete with that. Right. So
it has to be much more, I think social impact based in a way that an AI firm can not possibly
achieve. Right. So we're talking about scale in terms of how do we help people get through
the 21st century in such a difficult time to live life. So that's the intent as to how we brought
people on board. Okay. But I, but you know, as a full-time business, Ryan, I mean to make it
sustainable, such a very, very niche marketplace like pro wrestling, you need to have consistent
revenue. So have you guys developed, you know, various revenue streams for grapple max? Yeah,
you have to. Right. So like I mentioned, one thing is obviously revenue from memberships. So people
who train with us, so they, so they are basically, you know, buying a ticket into the community and
they get the training, they get to participate in community events, they get to do like photo shoots
at our place. So we also help them do like their headshots, which they also use for their LinkedIn,
which is crazy. Right. So it really is, again, we go back to how do we make this wrestling work for
you besides just like, oh, become a pro wrestler. There's much more than that. Second revenue stream
is the tickets and associated things like merchandise and stuff like that, F and B with the tickets.
The third stream is then corporates. I was, I was half thinking actually, you know, when I asked you
the question about the objectives, you know, name me the three big or biggest objectives you guys have
when you started the business. And when you said that you went over to Japan to study their model,
which is not a wrong thing to do. I mean, I'm pretty sure you've done your homework in Japan,
definitely. And we all know Japan for those of us who follow wrestling, that is Japan and the US,
but I was half expecting someone like you to say, Chris, I want to be the next Vince McMahon. I want
to take this to that level. You know, how do you think WWE made its way from WWF to the giant that
it is today? I mean, how did they do that? Of course, naturally they diversified along the way.
They did. Yeah. They have WWE movies and TV and stuff, right? Yeah. So that's, that's an aside.
You know, this, when they made it, you can do even more, the rich get richer. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. But didn't you want to look at that model? I think the problem with that model is that it's a
huge focus on being from a country, which is a very strong entertainment scene. Right. Right.
But if you're based in Singapore, right, how many people make it big in entertainment,
purely staying in Singapore? You just, you just, because you're just looking at Singapore. Of
course. Right. But then if you build something, which can then be exported overseas, I think
that's what we're looking at down the line as well. Right. Same reason why we don't call ourselves
like say, say a Singapore based name, right? The overall goal is how do we build something,
which is eventually going to be, you know, country agnostic. How can we expand the brand to grow,
say a grandpa Max Jim in a city elsewhere, for example, and that's scalability from there.
But before that, we have to first show that the current model is sustainable. So, but what you're
saying is that we, you need to have a conversion of sorts of having more people here locally to,
to buy in to your, to the pro wrestling world. It has to be. That's local. That's locally built here.
Yeah. So it's about that, right? Yeah. Because, you know, like again, three, four years ago,
it was really just a few of us going around shouting, Hey, wrestling is great. Wrestling
can do this and that. Right. But you don't have champions in society and community in the right
places to say they're right. I agree with them. Right. Whereas now we're seeing, you know, people
like people like yourself, right? Who can sort of say, yeah, I see what they're building here.
We're seeing, again, we are seeing the CCs get involved. Projector, right. Getting involved.
We did the Singapore Night Fest three times so far and running, right. National Heritage
Board is supporting of us. You know, we've worked with arts companies to do like arts collaborations.
And these are all things which you could not have achieved if you don't build or establish
these champions in different parts of industries. The marketing that you guys do. Yeah. You must
have noticed like me, Singaporeans have short attention spans. Is that true? Right. The shortest.
The shortest? Tell me more. I mean, you see people scrolling like, like doom scrolling on the train
or elsewhere. And the speed at which maybe it's a boomer sort of view perhaps. But I see the way
they scroll. I have no idea how they're consuming anything of what they're seeing on TikTok. But
you scroll and then your decision is like that microsecond swipe or watch a bit more. And so I
assume that that also applies to how they view things like marketing commercials. Yeah. Which
is very scary, to be honest. A little bit. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot scary. I mean, look at this
show, man. This is not your 15 second kind of show. Yeah. You know, there's no way.
Not TikTok, Randy. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, we got little bites on TikTok. Yeah. We have about the
size of it. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not going to be part contributory to more ADD or ADHD issues, man.
Yeah. But all I want to say is that hasn't this, all I want to ask is hasn't this
actually affected your own marketing? In terms of the attention span? Yeah. Yeah. I think,
yes. So we, over time, we realized that you're, it must be very upfront with your message. You
can't be like, oh, we are, we're a pro wrestling collective focused on social impact and building
people. It's like nobody cares, right? At least in terms of like, you know, very high level
marketing, that doesn't work. So we just go straight into, this is Singapore's best wrestling show.
This is a great night out for the family. This is, this is that, this is in there, right? So
it, I think we've really learned over time to just keep the message as tight as possible. Okay.
So you can explain it in like five seconds. Okay. Right. And you can just shout it as often,
as loud as you can to really address that, that, that habit, I guess, that we're seeing.
You guys build a community. I mean, I met Ming-Rui, I met Sarah, and they also attested to that.
What's the biggest lesson you've learned over these last nine years, and especially in these
two years that you've gone full time in fostering that strong, supportive community?
Empower people, right? Give them, give them something to take ownership over. I think when
we first began running the company as a promotion, so running these shows, we realized that you can't
see these people as like assets in terms of their wrestlers to go in market. Right. Right. What do
they want? I think they want some sense of how do I build my personal brand with pro wrestling,
going one step beyond that. How can I do cool stuff through Grapple Max that I can then go
and sell to my future employers, sell to my school, my school teachers, for example.
I think that's the main thing. How do we give them, say, you are now in charge of say the
ticketing team for a show. You're now in charge of community management. So we've done that. Right.
So for example, Sarah, who you met last time, so she is in charge of running our video recording
at the events. Right. And she didn't have to, right. And we could have sort of hired someone,
but we thought let's, let's try and find people in the team who are able to contribute,
which in turn gives them something to add to their CVs. They're LinkedIn's. Right. That's the main
part. I think give them, give them roles and give them the room to grow, almost like running a real
company, I guess. Yep. Okay. I mean, I think I've got a shot of, of, of, of, of quite a group of
people, right Kai? Don't I? There you go. So that's your community right there. Right.
That was from last year's anniversary, I think. Wow. Look at that, man. Yeah. If you zoom back a
bit more, right. If you had a wide angle shot, you would see that maybe about 120 people,
all around the ring as well. Oh, you mean around that ring. Yeah. It's not in the shot. Yeah. So
this is our studio. So this is where we run the, uh, this is the one in Ubi. Our monthly in-house
shows is where we run. You're supposed to send me an invite. I'm still waiting for it. I have sent
you an invite. No, I didn't. I didn't receive an invite. I'll send you for next one. I'm sure I did.
Anyway. Promise bro. Okay. Don't have. All right. I'll send you for next one. All right. What's this
thing? Um, what's this thing? This APAC, Federation of Wrestling, you guys are now a member of? Oh,
the APFW. Right. So this is, uh, this was an initiative that was started by New Japan Pro
Wrestling, which is the biggest wrestling company in, uh, in Japan. Okay. Uh, so they had this vision
of how do we sort of spread to Southeast Asia and around Asia, right? The skills that we have learned
over the last 40, 50 years of running wrestling. So the idea was to create this fed, this, uh, this
federation where there will be things like they'll bring the wrestlers down to, to train us. They
provide training trips for us to go, to go there. Um, and stuff like that for basically just exposed
local audiences to like a different level of wrestling. There's nothing that Singapore can teach them, right?
Well, I think in return, what they get is they get someone to partner with to facilitate shows that
they want to run here. Right. Right. So for example, when they came here, uh, two years ago, they brought
down their ladies, uh, promotion called Stardom. Uh, and so they ran here at Suntech City at the, at the expo.
Right. Uh, but we provided the ring and logistics to, to run the show. So we sort of give them
logistical support. So everything is very collaborative in certain ways as they, as helpful to each other.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. That's how that worked. So I think there's a few countries involved in that
ourselves. So in Singapore is us and there's one from, uh, from Thailand, China, Taiwan,
maybe one or two more. I can't quite recall. Okay. I, I saw this video, um, and it's about kids, man.
You have kids in training. You mentioned Academy earlier on. Yes. Right. So tell me about that, man.
I mean, I thought just now you also mentioned, uh, you know, parents, you know, next door and when they,
in the school kind of thing, right. Kids are there and then they, they complain about all your, your
kids are watching violence and listening to violence happening stuff, but then you have a kids Academy.
Yes, we do. We do. So to be clear, it's not a kids Academy. Uh, so we don't train like, like a five
year old kids on a regular basis. Not yet. Not yet. Tell me about it. Um, so the youngest we have now,
I believe is, um, 11 or 12 years old. Okay. We've trained 10 year olds before as well. Um, so these
are very much usually on, on requests. So we do find parents who find that, Hey, my kid, uh, loves
playing with wrestling toys, for example, watching, uh, wrestling on Netflix or TV. Uh, and he's got so
much energy, right? Can you take him in and teach him to, you know, learn wrestling in a safe and
positive environment? So we have done that. Uh, someone brought in his 16 year old kid and said,
Hey, prepare him for NS. I said, wow, sure. I said, yeah, I said, yeah, you know, this is the
performance, not the MMA. Yeah, I know, I know. I want him to learn confidence because he's very shy.
Oh, so we realized, oh, there is, there is something here. Right. So 16 year old kid,
yeah. Just pre waiting, uh, 17. So waiting to sort of waiting for the call up to go to BMT.
Right. So that's what the, that's what the request was. So we know there is some demand
that has come up over time. The only part I am not confident in is, is delivering something without
having say a partner who has very strong experience with children. Yeah. Cause that's
a very specific skill set pedagogies. Yeah, exactly. Right. So we don't want to go there
and just like anyhow, nah, here's the same thing, but for kids, we think we need to solve. So it's
not an official thing. It's not an official thing. Um, no, not yet. Having said that we have worked
with international schools before and we have trained kids as young as four years old. Kai,
can you play that video please, Kai? Oh, which one is this? Right. Uh, with the kids.
Ah, is this, is this one of it? No, I think these are probably not this one, Kai. 17, 18. This guy is.
This is the one that is labeled as kids. Yeah. Oh, this is the one. Okay.
So he's still a kid, man. He's 17, 18. Yeah. It's still young. So yeah, but not, not like five or
so. Right. So what is the only video I can find? That's good. We go home. I'll pass you something
in the future. Hang on a second. You mean that kid's doing all that with you. Oh yeah. It's a good
kid. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That, that, that, come on. The same thing I'm going to ask. This got to hurt. Right. No. Oh,
come on. Defense. Right. I could never do shit like that. I'm sure you could. No, I can't.
Nerves in my neck is going to go. Give me like three months. You'll find something.
Give me a break, man. You left the door open there for the request. I think, I think it hurts if you're
not well-trained is what I would say. Right. It's like, it's like, you know, it's like, you're going,
you go to stunt school, like, like you're not supposed to, to go through pain on a regular basis.
It's not part of it. Right. I mean, if you, because you break fall, people do that all the time in
martial arts. Right. So obviously, you know, if you get hit the wrong way, it's going to hurt. Right. So
there is some level of, I would say discomfort, right. That you will go through because it's such
a weird motion to go through in pro wrestling. Right. Right. What we are trying to do is not put
it as you got to fight through the pain to get through this. Right. Rather than, you know,
wrestle smart, understand how this works and protect yourself in every way possible. Right.
Don't take stupid risks just to go and drive your ego. For example. You know what, man? I'm just
going to stand by the sidelines and just watch and enjoy it. That's about the size of it. All right.
I will see you at our next show. You can send me an invite because I really didn't get the last one.
All right. That's my fault. I apologize. We'll make it happen. All right. If you could go back,
if Greg Ho can go back and give you your younger self, the one quitting his corporate job,
that guy, not long ago, one piece of advice, what would that be?
Don't wait for perfection. Don't wait for perfection. Just get it out there. Okay. Right.
Don't take too long to get it right. That's the most important piece of advice you give your
younger self a few years ago before going full-time. Yeah. I would think so. Right.
And I think because we have now sort of forced ourselves to be so aggressive in terms of,
let's just try everything. Let's go to corporates. Let's go and run corporate training. Let's go and
run boot camps. Let's run this and that. You know, like who's stopping us from running a show for
a thousand people, for example. Right. Just go out there and find people who want to work with you
and make it happen. Before it was like, oh, how do we get there? Like, how do we draw the roadmap
to get to that? Right. And sometimes you realize that you don't really need that. Yeah. You're
going to find people who buy into your story and, you know, magic sort of happens from there.
And at this time in your life, having committed yourself completely full-time on a scale of one
to 10 in all true honesty, I know we're on camera, in all honesty, mate, scouts honor, yeah. Scale of
one to 10, your confidence level on how far grapple, grab max, I beg your pardon, grab max will go.
Scale of one to 10. Nine. And what's the reason for the one? The one is if we made a gross
miscalculation on the market size. People who are out there who watch wrestling, but don't know about
us yet. Okay. That's fair. That's the scary part. That's okay. That's very mad. Last question. Okay.
It's actually been an hour. Oh really? Yeah. Wow. That was quick. Oh yeah. Real quick. Everyone
feels that way. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. Okay. Looking ahead. Okay. What's the one thing you want
grapple max to be known for? What legacy, what legacy do you hope to leave on the Singaporean
entertainment scene? Um, Asia's biggest pro wrestling company. Oh, now we talking, baby.
It has to be. It has to be. It has to be. The whole fucking show. I was just waiting for that.
Yeah. I was waiting for that too. So I'm glad we got it out there.
Okay. Can we have, I'm pretty sure I have got that done, Kai. Can we have grapple max come up please?
Let me check. Right.
Noah. I don't think so. Oh my. This slice that one out. Okay. Can we put up that picture of
the ring again of all of them on the ring of the anniversary picture?
Yeah. Let's put that one up. We also have the dropkick picture. Ah, okay. Put that one even
better. Here you go, man. Oh wow. This is a long time ago. There it is man. From desk to dropkick.
Incredible. Yeah. And then can we put up the grapple max picture again, man? Who is that guy
you were dropkick, dropkicking? He's a Malaysian. So this was one of our. That's a big dude, man.
He's a big dude. It's a big dude. Yeah. He once had a show where he, he slammed someone into the
ceiling. Cause that's how tall, that's how tall he was. No shit. And you tell me that doesn't hurt.
I thank you very much. Come on, Greg. If you do it well, right? The injuries don't come. I'm a big
guy who's a chicken shit. That's the important part. If you do this well and get a good school,
that's the important part. And there you go. The good school people. The pictures up there again.
Once again, grapple max. Easy to find them. Google them please. And then, you know, give it a shot,
man. Go check out the shows. Have some fun. Bring some popcorn, you know, and scream your lungs out,
man. Or even if you want to keep fit, just go down and grapple max. And this is a free show. I just,
I'm not being paid to say all that shit. Yeah. So Greg, thanks again for being on the show, man.
Thanks for having me. This is a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean, I had fun. I'm glad you did. And I wish
you the best. Thanks so much. Really. I really wish you the best, man. I mean, this is to me,
this is exciting stuff. I hope so. Yeah. So exciting that I would not have left my job.
I would have left my full time. It's a tough decision, but hopefully it pays off.
I'm a chicken shit, so I'm not you. Okay, man. Thanks again. Thank you so much. Everyone,
thanks for watching. The Chris Hansen Conversation is still season five. We are midway through,
actually. Almost midway through the season. But please keep watching us every Friday,
8 PM on CCB TV podcast, YouTube. Until next time. Bye bye.