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It's true, isn't it? So you want to grow a business in Singapore, you got to go that way.

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No, yeah. It is how it is. Unless you disagree.

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It is what it is. It is what it is.

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So I think-

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YAWN.

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Well, it is what it is, right? Because if you want the pitch, right? So for example,

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last November, we became the first wrestling company here to be sponsored by the PA through

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the CCs. So we ran an event at Jurong Spring Community Club for like 300 people.

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How did that happen? Okay, man. Thanks for being on the show, man.

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No problem. It's good to be here.

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Yeah. Good to have you around again. You know, I mean, the last time the two girls were here,

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Sarah and-

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Ming Rui.

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Ming Rui. Thank you very much. I'm just so bad with Chinese names.

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That's okay.

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And sorry, Ming Rui. Don't scoop slam me.

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She'll make you do a handstand.

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Handstand.

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I recall that was the catchphrase for the day, man. Handstand.

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I don't know how that happened, but that became the catchphrase.

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Well, as conversations would go, you know, sometimes things take a different turn,

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which is quite nice actually. So that's why we say we have authentic conversations.

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But Greg, you know, I decided to call this series of I Love My Job

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for you specifically as that one from desk to drop kicks.

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Oh.

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How true is that?

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Amazing. That's poetic.

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Really? Great.

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It's very true. Great.

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I think when you talk through the background as well, you probably get a sense of like,

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it really is desk to drop kicks and back to desk again.

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And back to desk again.

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Yeah. Cause that's the bulk of my job today. So we can talk about that too as we go.

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Because the bulk of your job today, because you're here today,

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my invitation as the business owner of a pro wrestling outfit, Grapple Max.

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And that's the reason why you're here. It's not so much about the discipline of wrestling,

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because we talked about a lot about that already with the two ladies.

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We did.

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But I just want to know more about the business end of it, you know, and your journey into that

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and how it's been like, and what exactly do you think you can get out of this? Because I mean,

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if it's going to be something like to me, pardon me, no disrespect. Yeah. Chris,

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leave a full-time job and go into something and do something that could just,

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most people would think be a monumental fuck up.

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Yep. Yep.

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And you end up going, regretting it for the rest of your life.

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Did you have any of those thoughts, man?

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I mean, I think it's a good question.

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I mean, you regretting it for the rest of your life. Did you have any of those thoughts, man?

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All the time, even now sometimes.

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Really?

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You never know, right? I think it's been a very long journey to get to this point.

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In fact, I only really went full-time into this about two years ago.

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But there's a very long journey before that of running this as a side hustle,

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before arriving to the conclusion that the only way for this to go where we

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want for this to go was to take this full-time and just drop everything else.

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And the reason why you decided to go into full-time, what was going through your head?

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Was there an internal dialogue that made you decide that this would be the right time

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or is it the right time, could be the right time to go into this full-time?

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What was the motivation behind it? What's going through your head?

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Yeah. I think you never really know when's the right time to go and launch a startup

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proper, especially if it's something which is like people are talking about all your sexy,

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deep tech crypto, things which are very high potential for investment.

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Whereas we're going down to like brick and mortar, not just that, but entertainment,

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not just that, but pro wrestling, not just that, but in Singapore.

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Right? So which of these are going to be a very sexy investment down the line, right?

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In fact, one of my core memories was when we first pitched this concept to an interested

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investor or we thought interested investor, a friend of a friend.

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So we sat at the coffee table, myself and my co-founder, Dennis, and we pitched the best

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pitch we ever prepared. Like this was before we ran the school. It was just the idea of this

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inclusive wrestling promotion. So he sat back and he went, okay, is that the pitch? I said, yeah.

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He said, okay, so here's my take, just no offence, friend to friend. What's going to happen is you're

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going to take my money. You're going to lose all my money. I'm going to lose all your money.

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And I'm going to sue you for losing my money. You still want to proceed?

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And I went, cool, great. What did you like about the pitch?

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So that was roughly how the first pitch went. I think,

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What happened with that pitch? Did he eventually do anything?

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No, like we just never spoke again because I thought like he was ever really keen, I think,

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on even discussing. I think it was more a case of he wanted to lecture a bunch of kids about,

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oh, this is what real wrestling is.

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You know something? I really hate people like that, man.

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I might be wrong if he's hearing this now, but maybe if you're right, if you're wrong,

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come back and talk to me about it.

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I mean, if you don't want to just say you don't want to tell him, it's fair for him to say,

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you know, whatever he said to you, it's kind of fair. It is.

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It is. It is.

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Yeah. But if the intent was to be there just to lecture a bunch of kids,

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I think that's really not on, man.

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Yeah. And I say that with no hard feelings. I think it really was very true at that point in time

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because we had no product. And this ties back to your question about how did we know it was

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the right time or we thought it might be the right time. So just for context to your listeners,

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right. I've been running startups concurrently with Grapple Max for about six years

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prior to doing this. So we founded the company in 2016 and we told ourselves, okay, this won't pay

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me like a full-time job salary anytime soon, but if we can at least get it off the ground,

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after one year, we're still here and we have some proof of customers.

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Okay. Let's go. I'll go and get a regular job again and let this run as a side hustle.

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Okay. So that happened. So 2016, we opened it. 2017, I went back to

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working and I went deep into startups.

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Okay. When you say deep into startups, that's plural, man. You mean the other startups besides

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Grapple Max.

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So I think all this was even before all that. Okay. So just for context, I was in Changi Airport

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group for five years prior to the wrestling journey. So there I sort of learned, you know,

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basically how to run like big national level companies. So I was doing like leasing for the

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terminals and eventually I was helping to start up the Jewel Changi Airport project.

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Wow.

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Which is cool, right?

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Yeah.

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So I think that also brings a lot of experience, but it also brings a lot of, okay, a lot of red

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tape. And like, you know, when you're such a huge company with huge responsibilities, you can't be

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particularly risk seeking, which is great for our airport. I know you want to risk seeking airport,

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right? But at that point in time I thought, okay, but I do want to be in a place where I can afford

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to fail and maybe even fail spectacularly because I want it to grow. Right? But over there you can't

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afford to. You can't. It's allowed me to fuck up for a while because it's the airport. You can't.

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Right. So then I began this, this wrestling journey.

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Yeah.

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And then 2017, I started working on startups. So I was in the pre-series A stage startups. So I was

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usually helping out in terms of sales and marketing leadership strategy. So I moved from,

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I was in a gig economy, like matching startup. So helping like employers find part-time workers.

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Right.

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Then we moved to, or I moved to an ad tech company. I moved into fitness. When back to ad tech,

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uh, raised about 1.8 mil for that company. Then went to my last one, which was Ninja van.

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Right.

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So I was there for a year, but throughout this entire time, I was also running Grapple Max on

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the site as a side hustle. And I think what I found over time was that it was quite frustrating

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because I felt like, you know, why am I always tired and frustrated at both sides? I'm getting

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annoyed at the main day job, but also I'm not getting what I want from the wrestling company.

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So for the last few months in Javan, I also had a startup leadership coach. So she was like,

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you know, having calls with me like once a month and so I'm like, okay, how are you doing? What's

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happening? You hired a coach. I did. I did. So I was referred to her through a friend,

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through the entrepreneurship scene. And I think what we kind of came to a realization on my site

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was that perhaps you're so frustrated because you're spending all your time helping these

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entrepreneurs who are like you, you're around your age, around your maturity experience level.

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You're helping them to grow their startup series A seed stage, but at the expense of your company.

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Right. Right. So, and you're frustrated. She said you were, were you frustrated?

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I was super frustrated. She was. She was. So I do owe her a lot of gratitude, I think,

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for helping me realize that. I think I knew it all along, but I just didn't want to face the fact,

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which is, you know, in the end, the conclusion was, no, you have to do this full time, but you

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can't possibly, cause this is not some idea we had like on the back of our heads, but I think

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of a napkin, Hey, wouldn't it be cool mom and dad, if I was to start a wrestling company, right? By

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that it's been six years, six years, we've run by that point, like, you know, 40, 45 events. We had

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a sustainable list of members, but we were stuck because nobody was watching this full time,

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because that person who should be doing it was busy doing something else. So in early 2023,

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I decided to go all in. So I left Ninja event and went deep into, okay, now I'm full time.

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I can't screw it up anymore. Right. How do we build a two year plan at least to get us to show some

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proof of wrestling can be a real company in Singapore. Right. Yep. And it has been two years

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full time, but been around since 2016. So it's been nine years in total. Yes. Eight plus nine.

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Yes. Almost nine. What kind of growth have you seen of the two years you've taken on this full time

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versus the seven years prior to this? Has the growth been, does it show that it really is working

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with you being there full time? Well, it has in some ways and not in other ways. I think the biggest

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surprise to me was that we increased revenue year on year by a significant amount, but we actually

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reduced our marketing spend also year on year, which is kind of like the marketer's dream. Right.

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So marketing went down 20%. Now revenue went up like 60% year on year. That's good. Pretty cool.

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Right. So I think that's so numerically, I think to get it out of the way. Yes, there was some

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growth in terms of the numbers that mattered. I think what we saw, the main difference really

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was that the first six years we were always in a shared space. Right. So we were paying like a

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profit share kind of rental to spaces that were not our spaces. Right. So we moved from our first

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space was a circuit training gym in our unit. We moved to a Muay Thai gym. We moved to a gymnastics

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gym, surrounded by kids and angry parents who couldn't stand these adults who were making noise

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and slamming each other and teaching their kids to be violent. They thought, and we thought at

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that point in time, okay, hang on. Like we asked the community, we asked the wrestlers, we asked

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the trainees and everyone said, actually what we're missing is a space to call our own. So that was

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the first change we made. So after I went full time, we went searching for places to set up.

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And so the whole goal was can we build a place that the region needed, which could serve as the

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home of pro wrestling. So everything happens here. The training happens like five days a week. Once

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a month, we convert the place into a production studio to do our wrestling shows. Just this

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morning, we just had a community event to sit down and watch the latest WWE big event together.

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Right. So the whole idea is as long as you have some connection to pro wrestling, you don't have

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to be necessarily a wrestler or even the crew. You can be a super fan. You can be some host. Just

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want to hang out with other wrestling fans. And we want this space to be a place where you can

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be a pro wrestler. And we want this place to be like that. And we think that drove the growth.

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When you started this business, let's go back a little bit, nine years ago, when you started this

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business, there must have been, you see the means justify the ends. You must have started with an

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end in mind. There must have been objective objectives. If you don't mind me asking Greg,

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could you name maybe three? Because I want to understand your motivation. Now look, listen,

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I've known a lot of people in this five seasons and a lot of people have done mid-career change

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and everything. And I recognize one seed, which is something that I'm not going to be prodding on

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today with you. And that one seed is very simple. If you decide, if a guy decides to move from what

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he's comfortable, entrenched in, into something else and then grew that new life and a new career

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and a new business, always stems from either the satisfaction of the workplace, politics of people,

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really being like kind of smug bullies we can have in this country is like any other country.

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We are no different from anyone else. And then you decide, I can't shut up this, I'm getting out of

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this thing and I'm out of this place and I'm going to do what I either love or learn to love. What

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I'm learning to love. Now I admire more so the people, not the ones that could learn to love,

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because I think eventually they'll still find something that they've suddenly discovered.

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I actually love this all this time. And that would have been something so innate, right?

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You're born with that thing. And that's why I don't want to prod in that so much because

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you're doing this simply because you have passion for wrestling as a, can I say art form?

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You should say art form. Okay, I should say art form. Why should I say art form?

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Because it is, it is an art form. Why?

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Well, I think it is to who we're talking to. To some people it's a sport. And I'm very candid

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about this because like, you know, like honestly in Singapore, it's still so new. Sports don't want

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us. Arts don't always want us to. So that was initially a blocker to us. And we thought actually

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that's turned into a strength, right? So if you want to say at the sports expo, hey, we're a sport.

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You want us to be at the Singapore night festival, we're an art. And we'll do a version of it.

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And I think that's fabulous, isn't it? I think it's a great place to be.

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Yeah, it's a great place to be. We sort of turned a negative into a positive for us, you know.

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But I think back to your question before I sidetracked you on the art form part.

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Sure. You're asking me about basically-

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So it's not about the passion, but you started a business as a business, as a business person,

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as an entrepreneur that, you know, I've certainly got objectives in mind, right? Can you name me the

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three biggest objectives when you first embarked on this? Besides the fact that you went, told your

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partner, I'm going to get myself a job and then, you know, earn a living and still, you know, be

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involved in this business and grow it. Then you decided years later that I'm going to go full-time

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because you realize it's better for me to do this full-time. Otherwise, it's not really going to

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grow. You must have had objectives. What would you say today? Let's put it this way, okay? To say,

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potential investor who's got a million bucks to throw into you, into your business, right? And

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you're going to pitch it to him. What would excite you would eventually also excite him, isn't it?

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Right. Because they're all shareholders like you. You're a co-founder of the company and then you

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got shareholders. Everyone has got to be aligned on some kind of objectives, right?

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Of course, of course. So what would that be? If you were to pitch this today,

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this is your opportunity, man. I've got 70,000 people listening.

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No pressure at all. Well, I think the biggest goal for us, of course, was to build a sustainable

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market for pro wrestling. Right. Before we came along, just for context again, because I know

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wrestling is very new to a lot of listeners. You know, before we came along, pro wrestling was

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always, if you want to be involved in pro wrestling, you kind of have to kind of want to become a

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professional wrestler, right? You got to be a particular type, particular level of mental

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strength. And you're going to watch a wrestling show, you must be a wrestling fan. So the first

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thing we did was can we expand that market? Right. If you have any passing interest in trying pro

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wrestling, we want this to be that safe first experience with trying it. If you're looking for

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an alternative sport, if you're shopping around for MMA, rock climbing, bouldering, whatever it is,

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right? Why can't pro wrestling be in that conversation? So the first part was how do we

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create a product which would appeal to someone who is not an aspiring WWE wrestler. And we've done

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that. The second part is the shows themselves, which is the other product we produce. So obviously

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people who train perform on the shows. Shows again in Singapore used to be very like tedious, long

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affairs, three hours of wrestling and wrestlers you probably don't know much about, right? You're

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just going there to see people get slammed and maybe sometimes bleed or, you know, shout stuff

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at people. And we thought, no, but we want to create something which not just the wrestling fans

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would come for, but something which their friends and family would come for. Right. Right. And people

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who are looking for, you know, some people obviously we go for nights out at bars, they go out for

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restaurants. Why not make a wrestling show part of that option? Okay. And we've seen that too,

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right? So we really built the product for not just the wrestling fans, but for them to bring along

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friends and family. I mean, Chris, you're a wrestling fan, right? Yeah. I think the hardest

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part sometimes is maybe not for you, but it's to bring people along to a wrestling show. Yeah,

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right. And give them something which you are proud that you have brought them here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's as good as I told the two girls that came here the last time. I brought my son to

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Raw, WWE Raw. It was at SmackDown. My wife brought me ringside seats, you know, years and years back

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at SmackDown, right? But if I were to ask a friend, hey, you want to go watch Raw? And he'll probably

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look at me and say, are you kidding me? You're out of your bloody mind? Did you get that shit here?

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I think we used to, right? And that's exactly what we wanted to fix, which was-

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Right now at this moment. Well, I'm sure we do, right? But I'm sure it's a lot less now because

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of the people we're working with these days, right? We're seeing corporates come to us,

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companies come to us. And I think going back to what the objectives are, we are now seeing

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after eight years of doing this and two years of doing it full-time, we're now seeing hints of

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traction. Right. I won't say it's guaranteed traction, but like I said, right, revenue is up,

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marketing spend is in fact down. So ROI is going up. But I think beyond the numbers,

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what we're seeing is we're seeing more and more corporates, companies, events spaces come to us

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saying, hey, we want pro wrestling here. Okay. If you asked me this question three years ago, right,

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it was, I was pro wrestling. Oh, the MMA, oh, the fake one, right? Too violent, right? It's always

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something that we get pushbacks three years ago. So I spent the last two and a half, three years,

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like really heavily evangelizing that this, what we do is not about the violence. It's not what you

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stereotypically see from the eighties or the nineties and, you know, girls in bikinis and

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mud wrestling or whatever, that kind of stuff. I like.

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Right. But you can't take that judgment, right? But you can't take that. You can't take that and

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sell that to corporates. You can't sell that to say the people's association. But it's true. It's

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true. Right. So you want to grow a business in Singapore. You got to go that way. It is how it

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is. Unless you disagree. It is what it is. It is what it is. So I think, why AWN?

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Cause if you want, if you want the pitch, right. So for example, last November, we became the first

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wrestling company here to be, to be sponsored by the PA through the CCs. So we ran an event at

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Jurong Spring Community Club for like 300 people. How, how, how, how did that happen? Did you guys

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approach them or did they approach you guys? First of all, we took the Yorn approach.

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The Yorn approach. Cause you have to, cause you have to show people

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that you're doing something different, right? We're not just like a bunch of dumb,

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I'm surprised that they actually open to it. I was surprised too. So you approached them.

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Well, so basically, and this is cool too. So one of my, one of my wrestlers, a community member,

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so he kind of went past the CC and he saw that they were hosting MMA, uh, Twin Elements.

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No fucking way. Yeah. Right. So he, he cracked, they're doing this like combat sports here.

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You should be. Oh shit. So honestly, I think what I love about this story is that it's two levels of

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cool stuff. One is, it's my member who, who first reached out to make that, to make that work. Right.

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So the next thing I knew, um, they wanted to talk to us and say, Hey, we want to keep building on

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combat sports and you guys seem to be the biggest around. Can we bring you guys in to run an event?

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And so we did it last year and the feedback was so strong because if you look around,

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it was a free event and they covered the cost. Hang on. This is Jurong CC. This is Jurong Spring

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CC. You know something, man, there's something about Jurong CCs, you know why? Because every

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time I hear something cool happening, it's happening in Jurong. That's true. In the CC.

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That's true. Like Kuma, Kuma actually had, they actually had Kuma, full on Kuma. I'm not talking

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about the, the toned down Kuma. The new dirt, safer. Yeah. I'm talking about Kuma, Kuma. Okay.

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And they actually had him on the show and he actually said this, Hey, you're okay,

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you know, you're hired me today for what? That's interesting. So, so it seems to me that they,

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they do dare to go a little further. Maybe the air is different there. I don't know, man.

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I think so. I think they're eating plants and all that. Yeah. I think it smells of chocolate for

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some reason. My army chem used to be there as well. It does smell of chocolate. You can never

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figure out why. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Maybe if you're listeners know the answer. No, no.

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It's in the comments. Dude, it's incineration plants. Man, come on. I mean, my car ended up

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having, you know, funny marks on my, you know, my paint work. Okay. Okay. Okay. But anyway,

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yes, I think Jurong, we did find a lot of interest and what they loved about it was that the

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demographics was so huge. Yeah. Because I think CCs, they always want to try to be, to attract.

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Did you manage to go beyond Jurong? So work in progress, so stuff which I can't announce today,

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unfortunately. Oh, but it is a work in progress. There is a work in progress where I think basically,

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I think what I can say today at least is the response was very strong. They were very happy

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to see like number one, it was safe. There was no like extreme risks. No one was like bleeding.

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There was no like, it was very focused on safety, right? It's very focused on what works for what

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this market needs. But I have a different product to talk to you about, which is different from this,

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but for this part of what we do, we focus very heavily on family-friendly safe entertainment.

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Okay. Because if not, you can't grow. Yeah. Right. You want to do a pitch to an investor,

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this has to be the pitch because you can't go and say, hey, we're doing-

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You got to keep it so controlled so that you can grow.

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We're doing like, we're doing Indie ECW, we're being cut with razor blades and thumbtacks. You

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can't, right? No one's going to buy that in Singapore or in 2025 in this market.

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Well, in the work, in the work, in, in, in workism, in society, in workism-

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If you want to bankroll that product, I'm happy to talk to you about it.

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But in our experience so far, I think we kind of know what works and also it does align with

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what the company is building, which is building a place where everyone's welcome.

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Okay. So, so what's the third thing then? The third part I think is, uh, events that go

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outside of memberships and shows. So we're doing things like corporate engagements. So for example,

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last year what we did was we did a baby gender review party, which is a kind of new concept,

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right? So basically we were engaged to put two wrestlers in the ring. One was blue, one was red.

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Okay. The winner is the gender of the baby. Simple concept.

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You know, you've actually done that? Yeah, we did.

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And, and okay, hang on. You should talk to my wife.

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Okay. Okay. You don't know what she does, huh?

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I do not. Okay, we'll take it offline.

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Okay. This is already a great podcast.

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Wow. Yep. Okay.

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So we did that and then, um, then that, that went viral. So that was, uh, it first caught

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fire on Reddit and then we were approached by like, I think it was at least six different news

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outlets in the next 12 months. So you became, you could be, you guys could actually become like a

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segment in a show program for a corporate event. Yeah, we could. And I'll tell you,

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one of my big inspirations, uh, is pole dancing. What?

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I'm going to pause for a second there. Right. Because so, so one of my early, uh, uh,

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people I spoke to for advice was someone called Suzy Wong. So she, uh, I'm sure you know Suzy,

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right? So, so she, she helped to bring pole dancing to Singapore and made it fairly mainstream

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where I think they were doing performances in different places. Right. And so for us,

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one of the goals was can we sort of take a similar path where this eventually goes in places like,

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you know, corporate events and can you like just bring in the ring or rent our studio and do the

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event there? Um, so we're currently in talks with, uh, uh, and, uh, okay, a company and they want us

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to help them run part of their internship program, uh, as like a bootcamp using wrestling training to

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teach the interns things like confidence and how to. May I ask which sector this company is in? Um,

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no. Okay. It's a bit too soon, but I'll tell you offline. Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure how far down the,

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the path of, uh, contracts with them. Okay. But they are involved in business in commerce

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somehow, right? Yeah. Not, not into, okay. Yeah. So completely separate from what we do. I mean,

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it could be an IT company, it could be that kind of thing. Right. Could be. Yeah. Okay. And I think

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the point here is that what we're seeing is we're seeing more interest come from corporates, from

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HRs saying, Hey, we want to bring wrestling in as maybe as. But is this part of your vision, man? I

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mean, is it, is it part of the original vision you had when you started the business? So when I first

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founded, uh, Grapple Max back in 16, what I did before that in between Changi Airport and starting

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this was I went to Japan, which, uh, some might know, right. And wrestling has two main, uh,

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markets, the U S and Japan. Right. So I went to Japan. So I was there for three months and what

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the goal was to go there and see, okay, what is a true professional, mature wrestling market like.

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Okay. So I went there and what surprised me was, so I was training there for like in like three

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different dojos, like five days a week. But what blew my mind was wrestling was everywhere. Like

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there were wrestlers, you know, faces on like, uh, the train ads, train commercials. There was

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wrestling shows happening at carnivals in school halls. And he's not talking just about sumo, right?

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No, I'm talking about pro wrestling. Like my kind of pro wrestling, right? Not sumo. Um, like there

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were schools who have CCAs who encouraged their kids to. No, really? Yeah. Because it's been around

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since, since, uh, since the fifties. Wow. So what I thought was, Hey, wouldn't it be cool, right? In

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a country like Singapore to build a culture like that. So I think to answer your question, it is

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part of the goal, which is how do we get to a point where it's such a big part of, of culture

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and society where everywhere you look, you are no longer surprised to see pro wrestling. Actually,

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you know, it's kind of interesting because if it just a toy a little bit of that concept in that

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that you just mentioned about Japan and the school kids at the CCAs. If we go to the U S, mat

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rest wrestling, even the high schools, it exists, right? And then you can even get into collegiate

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level, get college scholarships, be through wrestling, not just football, NFL, not just the

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football thing. I mean, I don't like them college football. Another whole other debate. Yeah. Um,

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not soccer. Yeah. Yeah. So soccer is football. I think you have American listeners too.

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I really don't give a shit, man. Okay. As long as the orange one's in charge, like I care. Yeah.

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Okay. Um, um, yeah. And, and our schools don't have stuff like that. It's not a fact. A lot of

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schools don't even have rugby say for the usual suspects. Yeah. R I R J S a, uh, uh, S a J C,

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um, ACS, ACJC, right. Um, and, and yes, some of the colleges do have it, but you hardly hear the

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names. Um, but you know who the usual suspects are. Yeah. Right. Uh, and usually the trophies get

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tossed around amongst each other. Yeah. Um, that's the, the full contact kind of sport that they have

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in schools. Yep. But this pro wrestling thing is an interesting proposition. Unless of course the

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schools, you know, MOE and the Singapore school sports council turn around and say, but if that's

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the case, we might as well just bring in mat wrestling instead of pro wrestling because that's

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something that can go into the Olympics. Right. You know, yeah. I think on that point, I think

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it's really about who you're, who you're trying to appeal to as well. Right. If you're talking

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about going to Olympics, you're talking about sport, then sure. I think that's where mat

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wrestling comes in. Yeah. Um, but I think where pro wrestling comes in and I think on a personal

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note, right, a lot of what I learned that I apply in my, in my working environment, right. My

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traditional working environment, right. Confidence, public speaking, eye contact, giving good handshakes.

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I can't say, right. All that came from pro wrestling. But really, right. Because imagine

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you're putting on a pro wrestling match, right? What are you doing? You're going out there in your,

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in your spandex underwear, right. Which takes some level of confidence. I assume some level,

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right. Once you go out there, sometimes you got a microphone, do a speech, do a promo in front of

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like 200 people. Yeah. And usually that's live. You go wrong, you go wrong. Right. And the match

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itself. So obviously I think I assume you'll know that this is the performance, like some might call

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it a choreographed or fake in some cases. Um, but even then there are parts where you improvise

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based on crowd response. Cause for us, the KPI is you cheer for me if I'm a good guy, you boo if I'm

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a bad guy. Right. And if you don't get that response, work harder to make that response happen.

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Right. But what really matters as a performer is when you, when you screw up the performance,

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right. If you forget the script or whatever it is, right. The audience won't know,

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right. They only know what is out there. And think about when you're giving a, you know, a speech or

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a pitch or a sales presentation, right. It's the same thing, right. You fuck up your point. You

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forget slide number 12's point about your year and year. That's interesting man. Screw it, right.

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People only know what you put out there. Right. And everything that we took from pro wrestling,

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we want people to realize that you can in fact apply it to real life. It's almost like a toast

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masters with body slams. So I think just to wrap up this point, right. So yes, I think overall,

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what we're seeing is pretty good. We should, we should, we should trademark that. Now it's out

387
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,640
there. See, I mean, anyway, now we've made a mistake. That was brilliant, man. Right. But I think it's

388
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,800
treating. So I think it's seeing memberships go up and seeing show frequency, right. And seeing

389
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,600
corporate interests come in a lot more than we had before we began doing. So it begins with all this

390
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,160
advocacy. I mean, you've got to really advocate for people to just kick, come on guys. I mean,

391
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,320
instead of going to the movies, instead of going for a happy hour thing, just come over and catch

392
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:40,160
an hour plus of our show. Yeah. Right. And enjoy yourselves. Yeah. Okay. But, but don't you think

393
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,320
that, you know, I mean, I can just hear the cynics, man. I can just hear, you know, you got lots of

394
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:50,960
those skeptics and cynics who would say, I'd rather pay to watch, you know, something that's

395
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:56,960
a lot more brutal or I'd rather pay to watch something that I'm not, I'm not to watch something

396
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:04,240
that's as rough as the WWE. But as you said, in this country's context, in order for you, for the

397
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:10,240
business to continue moving forward, you can't. Yep. Exactly. So there's no way you could mitigate

398
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,120
that at this time. Yeah. I think you go where the market's ready to go. Right. I think if they want

399
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:20,160
to see something more violent, I'll say, sure. Right. Go watch one. Right. Because you want to see

400
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:26,560
real, real fights, real blood concussions. The entire goal of MMA fight is to get the guy into

401
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,960
such a position of this combat. He taps out, right? Or he's knocked out. Right. Sure. There's a market

402
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,920
for that. But I think our bet here is that there is just the biggest market for what we do, which

403
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:42,640
is all the thrill of a fight, none of the risk. Okay. So basically, I can just sum this up for you.

404
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:51,280
Pro wrestling and what Grapple Max does is that these are shows. And this is really just

405
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:57,360
entertainment. Go there to be entertained. It is. Okay. And then on the sports and the healthy living

406
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:04,960
part of it, I'm curious about this part. I may be wrong, but you heard of Spartans? Yes, of course.

407
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,560
Yeah. In my gym, I mean, next to my gym, the neighborhood of my gym where I go to is,

408
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:17,680
there's a Spartans. And I see people of all shapes and sizes, man, you know, really of different

409
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:23,280
ages as well, different genders going there and they are, wow, the way they're wrapping their hands

410
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,320
around. It's like watching real boxers doing stuff, wrapping their hands and stuff. And then

411
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,080
they go there to train stuff here and all that. And they get under, there's a ring, big ring. They

412
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:38,320
get in the ring, but, and they're sparring and all that, but it's not really sparring. So I think

413
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,320
it's, that place is like, let's go there, keep fit. I don't think they have bouts and stuff.

414
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,600
Am I wrong? I think Spartans, they do run some tournaments, but I think what you're seeing

415
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,080
every day probably is not the bouts. Yeah. Yeah. It's like come in and get fit through boxing,

416
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,840
right? Is Grapple Max like that as well? Come in and learn how to do this.

417
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,880
It is. I think it has to be, right? So we were very inspired when we first started by obviously

418
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:09,360
things like Evolve. Back then it was, there was a brand called Vandervoxing Club on Shenton Way.

419
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,160
And they were focused very heavily on promoting. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That one. Yeah. It's like a

420
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,200
double height, metal nine. It's a really nice place. And we were very intrigued at how they

421
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,840
took what's traditionally seen as a very violent, potentially dangerous sport and made it into,

422
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:30,080
oh, this is for white collar workers. This is for regular people. Yeah. So for us, Grapple Max is

423
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:36,320
always meant to be that version for pro wrestling. Okay. Right. So I think even before talking about,

424
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,560
hey, come be a pro wrestler, right? That's a very small market to talk to. Right. But if you say,

425
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,880
hey, no, this pro wrestling teaches you all these different things and along the way, no pressure.

426
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:50,400
But if you love it enough, hey, maybe try a match. Maybe try two matches. Maybe, surprise, now you're

427
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,280
a pro wrestler, right? You can grow the market that way. And the overall goal for us was to raise

428
00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:01,600
overall standards of safety and performance. Okay. And we could only do that by pitching to as large

429
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,000
a market as possible. Right. And that includes the fitness market. Right. Yeah. So that's why we run

430
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,960
things like we run workshops and classes like five days a week. And the classes are meant to be a

431
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:16,800
mix of not just the technique and performance, but also of course, things like cardio, flexibility,

432
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,440
how your body can move around. Pretty amazing because it's such a, I mean, it's so flexible,

433
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:28,480
you know, your business. It belongs to entertainment, as you mentioned. You say that it doesn't

434
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,320
belong to sport. It doesn't belong to entertainment. No, you're on the contrary. It does. It's

435
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:40,000
entertainment, it's sport, it's fitness. It's all that. And even media, roll all into one. Yeah. And

436
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,040
I think that's pretty remarkable. I just want to tell everyone here, cameras on me, right, Kai?

437
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,600
Yes. Okay. Everyone, please, this is not a sponsored episode. Grapple Max and Greg Ho did not pay me.

438
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:56,960
And I'm not blowing sunshine up their asses just because, or just because, just because, no,

439
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:02,800
I meant what I said. This is not a sponsored episode. Okay. And I think it's pretty remarkable

440
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:09,520
coming back to the point. And you guys started the business just $20,000. Yes. Yes. And now how many

441
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:15,120
members do you have? More than 40? Members, we have, yeah, I think about 40 or 45. 40, 45. Okay.

442
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:21,360
And then you also have had international shows. We have. Wow. So we were the first and the only

443
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,720
local wrestling company to run a full show in Japan. And all this, when you started, when we

444
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:32,240
started this conversation, we talked about that guy that I don't really like, you know, who gave

445
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:37,360
you that lecture, right? Oh, right. Yes. Okay. From that guy, and you moved on, did you move on? Did

446
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:44,000
you get more people invested into your business? We did. So we eventually grew the investment team

447
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,240
a little bit larger. So most of these were obviously for people who were already in the community.

448
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:52,160
So people who were being involved. Wait, wait, wait. Sorry, sorry. I got to stop you there.

449
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,720
What do you mean investment team? Sorry. As in people who are lists of investors, basically.

450
00:34:56,720 --> 00:35:00,960
Okay. Okay. Shareholders. Shareholders, shareholders. Okay. I thought you started

451
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,200
the department that goes out there to hunt for funding. Kyvern recall the term shareholders.

452
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,960
Okay. How to pitch that. Don't worry about that, man. You maybe got knocked in the head yesterday.

453
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:15,120
No, I hope not. Anyway, so we brought more shareholders on board, but obviously we're

454
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,880
always finding ways to raise funds primarily because I'm still a one man show right now at

455
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,440
this point in time. So actually all the, all the improvements we've seen is basically run by one

456
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,960
guy doing it full time and a team of extremely motivated and talented volunteers. Right. And

457
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,680
then on an extremely bare bones marketing budget. So I think the challenge for us now is now that

458
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,440
we are seeing a lot of traction and a lot of interested collaborators, potential clients coming

459
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,640
in the struggle for us then is how do we then scale and not end up losing these potential leads

460
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,440
because you know, Greg can't cope with the volume. This is where we're trying to do like, you know,

461
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,400
grow the team, increase marketing budgets. And that's where we're looking to raise some funding

462
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:02,480
down the line as well. Right. Do you guys sell tickets? We do. Okay. And your ticket sales are

463
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:10,480
for your own space. Both. So the shows are in, okay. Okay. Let's go one at a time. You've got,

464
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:17,760
you've got your own space with your own ring and your own media all set up. So there is a particular

465
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,960
home for Graphical Max. There is. And you sell tickets for your shows there as well. Yes. And

466
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:30,480
okay. And so where is this? This is in Ubi. In Ubi? Yes. Okay. We call it the Ubi Dome affectionately.

467
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,040
Okay. Which part of Ubi? Ubi Avenue one. Ubi Avenue one, which building? Dude, just give the

468
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,400
address. 55. I assume it's going to be on the comment in the description somewhere. But sure.

469
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:46,960
It's a 55 Ubi Avenue one. Okay. Or you can just Google for Grapple Max for wrestling and you're

470
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,320
going to find it for sure. And how often do you have your shows? Once a month. Once a month? At

471
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,680
least. Okay. But that's increasing. Okay. So once a month there. Yes. But you were about to say,

472
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,320
tell me just now that there are also other venues. I think the exciting thing is we're growing the

473
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,320
shows as well in two ways. Right? So the monthly shows are sort of like, for those who watch

474
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,200
wrestling, these are like our raw, our Smackdown, like the regular shows. Okay. But we're also

475
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:18,400
launching, or in fact, we just launched our Academy shows. We call them the NWE showcase shows. So

476
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:24,560
these are like NXT for those who watch W2. So we have the Academy kids coming in and what we do is

477
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,800
we're worried that as the shows get bigger and bigger and bigger, we lose the original intent,

478
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,360
which was to give them a very safe place to start to learn live performing. Cause imagine you go

479
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,880
from training by yourself with no fans, jumping straight to a 200-packs performance. So it's like

480
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,440
if you train in Carrington, have your first few games in Carrington. Don't go traffic. Yeah.

481
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,040
Although now the main team also is playing like they're in Carrington. All the Liverpool people

482
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,760
probably switch off the damn episode right now. Lost interest right away. It's okay. I'm happy with

483
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:58,480
14 plays. It's fine. Whatever. Anyway. Yeah. So, so we have launched these Academy shows,

484
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,560
which run currently once every quarter on top of the regular shows. We also run shows outside.

485
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:10,000
Okay. And so for example, we mentioned last November's Jurong show, supported by PA.

486
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,880
We work with the projector cinema quite a few times. So we've done three times with projector

487
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,760
and this is what we call the Fight Club series. Okay. Right. So as the name suggests, these are

488
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:27,040
much grittier M18 alcohol is okay type of events. So very different. So these are usually like

489
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:32,560
MET shows. So we don't bring the ring to projector. We bring our METs there. Okay. So it's much more

490
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,360
grungy. Like the audience is super close. Sometimes like they're so close that your feet are like on

491
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,880
the ring. So it's as if it's like going for Fight Club kind of thing. Yeah. Right. When the audience

492
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,360
is just around you. Exactly. So they are at eye level with us and they are surrounding the action.

493
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:53,120
So it's a very different. It is right. For the wrestlers too actually. I think it's sort of like,

494
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:59,520
I always equated to going from like stage magic to up close, like a sleight of hand magic. Because

495
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,960
when you're so close, every angle, right, you can't throw your punches. You can't pull your

496
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,680
punches. Cause everyone can see, right? Oh, see, he missed it from so far. So it becomes a very

497
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,480
different skill set, but the feel is so different from the ring shows. That's a Fight Club one. So

498
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:19,360
it's a whole range of different shows based on what's the venue that we're doing these shows in.

499
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,960
But again, it's so pliable what you guys do that you can actually do this anywhere.

500
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,840
We could. You could even, you can even do one, let's say for example, I'm just going to let my

501
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,440
right brain go a bit wild. But if it's too good, yeah, right. Keep it offline. So we don't just

502
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,160
tell the whole world. Wait, wait, wait. You mean there are other pro wrestling outfits besides you?

503
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,600
The region's got a lot. Singapore's got three. Right. So I think what's exciting about the region

504
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,480
now is that everywhere you see, there are companies popping up to show that there is demand for this.

505
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,440
Okay. Yeah. So Malaysia's got two, right? Philippines, I just realized has got four.

506
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,760
Right. So I think again, back to the investor pitch, right? It's every country we're seeing now

507
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:01,280
has these companies popping up and attracting fans. So when the new investors, when the investors

508
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:10,160
after that guy started coming in, right? They weren't afraid. They didn't say the same thing

509
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:16,400
that guy did. No, not at all. What did they say? Okay. So I think it helps that two of the new

510
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,640
shareholders were within the team. So that's, that's okay. Okay. But the one who came from outside,

511
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:26,880
I'll clarify the question here. So I think the one who came in, what he loves really honestly was

512
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,680
he just liked the fact that we're creating some kind of impact on people. Like we are helping

513
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:37,600
people to create personal branding for themselves. So he's doing this for out of altruism?

514
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,160
Yeah. Cause I don't think, I think what you look for when you invest in something like a wrestling

515
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,320
company, right? You're not looking for super high returns equivalent to say investing in a much

516
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,160
higher, high growth, deep tech kind of company. Obviously we can't compete with that. Right. So

517
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:56,320
it has to be much more, I think social impact based in a way that an AI firm can not possibly

518
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,120
achieve. Right. So we're talking about scale in terms of how do we help people get through

519
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:07,200
the 21st century in such a difficult time to live life. So that's the intent as to how we brought

520
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:13,440
people on board. Okay. But I, but you know, as a full-time business, Ryan, I mean to make it

521
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:19,360
sustainable, such a very, very niche marketplace like pro wrestling, you need to have consistent

522
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:27,760
revenue. So have you guys developed, you know, various revenue streams for grapple max? Yeah,

523
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:33,040
you have to. Right. So like I mentioned, one thing is obviously revenue from memberships. So people

524
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,640
who train with us, so they, so they are basically, you know, buying a ticket into the community and

525
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,120
they get the training, they get to participate in community events, they get to do like photo shoots

526
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,560
at our place. So we also help them do like their headshots, which they also use for their LinkedIn,

527
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:51,040
which is crazy. Right. So it really is, again, we go back to how do we make this wrestling work for

528
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:56,080
you besides just like, oh, become a pro wrestler. There's much more than that. Second revenue stream

529
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,400
is the tickets and associated things like merchandise and stuff like that, F and B with the tickets.

530
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:06,880
The third stream is then corporates. I was, I was half thinking actually, you know, when I asked you

531
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:12,720
the question about the objectives, you know, name me the three big or biggest objectives you guys have

532
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:18,960
when you started the business. And when you said that you went over to Japan to study their model,

533
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,040
which is not a wrong thing to do. I mean, I'm pretty sure you've done your homework in Japan,

534
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,920
definitely. And we all know Japan for those of us who follow wrestling, that is Japan and the US,

535
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:35,520
but I was half expecting someone like you to say, Chris, I want to be the next Vince McMahon. I want

536
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:43,760
to take this to that level. You know, how do you think WWE made its way from WWF to the giant that

537
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,160
it is today? I mean, how did they do that? Of course, naturally they diversified along the way.

538
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:54,560
They did. Yeah. They have WWE movies and TV and stuff, right? Yeah. So that's, that's an aside.

539
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,320
You know, this, when they made it, you can do even more, the rich get richer. Yeah, definitely.

540
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:05,200
Yeah. But didn't you want to look at that model? I think the problem with that model is that it's a

541
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,320
huge focus on being from a country, which is a very strong entertainment scene. Right. Right.

542
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,920
But if you're based in Singapore, right, how many people make it big in entertainment,

543
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,000
purely staying in Singapore? You just, you just, because you're just looking at Singapore. Of

544
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,400
course. Right. But then if you build something, which can then be exported overseas, I think

545
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,560
that's what we're looking at down the line as well. Right. Same reason why we don't call ourselves

546
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,280
like say, say a Singapore based name, right? The overall goal is how do we build something,

547
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,480
which is eventually going to be, you know, country agnostic. How can we expand the brand to grow,

548
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:41,920
say a grandpa Max Jim in a city elsewhere, for example, and that's scalability from there.

549
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:47,600
But before that, we have to first show that the current model is sustainable. So, but what you're

550
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:55,920
saying is that we, you need to have a conversion of sorts of having more people here locally to,

551
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:03,200
to buy in to your, to the pro wrestling world. It has to be. That's local. That's locally built here.

552
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,440
Yeah. So it's about that, right? Yeah. Because, you know, like again, three, four years ago,

553
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,040
it was really just a few of us going around shouting, Hey, wrestling is great. Wrestling

554
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,760
can do this and that. Right. But you don't have champions in society and community in the right

555
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,880
places to say they're right. I agree with them. Right. Whereas now we're seeing, you know, people

556
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,760
like people like yourself, right? Who can sort of say, yeah, I see what they're building here.

557
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,960
We're seeing, again, we are seeing the CCs get involved. Projector, right. Getting involved.

558
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,880
We did the Singapore Night Fest three times so far and running, right. National Heritage

559
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:39,200
Board is supporting of us. You know, we've worked with arts companies to do like arts collaborations.

560
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,320
And these are all things which you could not have achieved if you don't build or establish

561
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:53,760
these champions in different parts of industries. The marketing that you guys do. Yeah. You must

562
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,840
have noticed like me, Singaporeans have short attention spans. Is that true? Right. The shortest.

563
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:07,760
The shortest? Tell me more. I mean, you see people scrolling like, like doom scrolling on the train

564
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:14,880
or elsewhere. And the speed at which maybe it's a boomer sort of view perhaps. But I see the way

565
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,760
they scroll. I have no idea how they're consuming anything of what they're seeing on TikTok. But

566
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:26,000
you scroll and then your decision is like that microsecond swipe or watch a bit more. And so I

567
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:31,360
assume that that also applies to how they view things like marketing commercials. Yeah. Which

568
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:36,160
is very scary, to be honest. A little bit. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot scary. I mean, look at this

569
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:42,080
show, man. This is not your 15 second kind of show. Yeah. You know, there's no way.

570
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,360
Not TikTok, Randy. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, we got little bites on TikTok. Yeah. We have about the

571
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:58,960
size of it. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not going to be part contributory to more ADD or ADHD issues, man.

572
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:04,560
Yeah. But all I want to say is that hasn't this, all I want to ask is hasn't this

573
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:09,360
actually affected your own marketing? In terms of the attention span? Yeah. Yeah. I think,

574
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:14,240
yes. So we, over time, we realized that you're, it must be very upfront with your message. You

575
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:19,920
can't be like, oh, we are, we're a pro wrestling collective focused on social impact and building

576
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,400
people. It's like nobody cares, right? At least in terms of like, you know, very high level

577
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:29,040
marketing, that doesn't work. So we just go straight into, this is Singapore's best wrestling show.

578
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,880
This is a great night out for the family. This is, this is that, this is in there, right? So

579
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:38,400
it, I think we've really learned over time to just keep the message as tight as possible. Okay.

580
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,120
So you can explain it in like five seconds. Okay. Right. And you can just shout it as often,

581
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:49,120
as loud as you can to really address that, that, that habit, I guess, that we're seeing.

582
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,640
You guys build a community. I mean, I met Ming-Rui, I met Sarah, and they also attested to that.

583
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,720
What's the biggest lesson you've learned over these last nine years, and especially in these

584
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:05,680
two years that you've gone full time in fostering that strong, supportive community?

585
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:13,760
Empower people, right? Give them, give them something to take ownership over. I think when

586
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:19,680
we first began running the company as a promotion, so running these shows, we realized that you can't

587
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:25,360
see these people as like assets in terms of their wrestlers to go in market. Right. Right. What do

588
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:30,800
they want? I think they want some sense of how do I build my personal brand with pro wrestling,

589
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:36,000
going one step beyond that. How can I do cool stuff through Grapple Max that I can then go

590
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:42,000
and sell to my future employers, sell to my school, my school teachers, for example.

591
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:47,280
I think that's the main thing. How do we give them, say, you are now in charge of say the

592
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,840
ticketing team for a show. You're now in charge of community management. So we've done that. Right.

593
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:56,960
So for example, Sarah, who you met last time, so she is in charge of running our video recording

594
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,040
at the events. Right. And she didn't have to, right. And we could have sort of hired someone,

595
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,680
but we thought let's, let's try and find people in the team who are able to contribute,

596
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:10,720
which in turn gives them something to add to their CVs. They're LinkedIn's. Right. That's the main

597
00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:16,160
part. I think give them, give them roles and give them the room to grow, almost like running a real

598
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:22,880
company, I guess. Yep. Okay. I mean, I think I've got a shot of, of, of, of, of quite a group of

599
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:28,640
people, right Kai? Don't I? There you go. So that's your community right there. Right.

600
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:34,480
That was from last year's anniversary, I think. Wow. Look at that, man. Yeah. If you zoom back a

601
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,080
bit more, right. If you had a wide angle shot, you would see that maybe about 120 people,

602
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,560
all around the ring as well. Oh, you mean around that ring. Yeah. It's not in the shot. Yeah. So

603
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:48,480
this is our studio. So this is where we run the, uh, this is the one in Ubi. Our monthly in-house

604
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,440
shows is where we run. You're supposed to send me an invite. I'm still waiting for it. I have sent

605
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,440
you an invite. No, I didn't. I didn't receive an invite. I'll send you for next one. I'm sure I did.

606
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:01,120
Anyway. Promise bro. Okay. Don't have. All right. I'll send you for next one. All right. What's this

607
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:07,120
thing? Um, what's this thing? This APAC, Federation of Wrestling, you guys are now a member of? Oh,

608
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:13,680
the APFW. Right. So this is, uh, this was an initiative that was started by New Japan Pro

609
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:20,640
Wrestling, which is the biggest wrestling company in, uh, in Japan. Okay. Uh, so they had this vision

610
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:26,960
of how do we sort of spread to Southeast Asia and around Asia, right? The skills that we have learned

611
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,320
over the last 40, 50 years of running wrestling. So the idea was to create this fed, this, uh, this

612
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:37,200
federation where there will be things like they'll bring the wrestlers down to, to train us. They

613
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,560
provide training trips for us to go, to go there. Um, and stuff like that for basically just exposed

614
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,040
local audiences to like a different level of wrestling. There's nothing that Singapore can teach them, right?

615
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:52,000
Well, I think in return, what they get is they get someone to partner with to facilitate shows that

616
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,120
they want to run here. Right. Right. So for example, when they came here, uh, two years ago, they brought

617
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:04,800
down their ladies, uh, promotion called Stardom. Uh, and so they ran here at Suntech City at the, at the expo.

618
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:10,080
Right. Uh, but we provided the ring and logistics to, to run the show. So we sort of give them

619
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,480
logistical support. So everything is very collaborative in certain ways as they, as helpful to each other.

620
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,480
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. That's how that worked. So I think there's a few countries involved in that

621
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:23,520
ourselves. So in Singapore is us and there's one from, uh, from Thailand, China, Taiwan,

622
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:30,880
maybe one or two more. I can't quite recall. Okay. I, I saw this video, um, and it's about kids, man.

623
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:39,360
You have kids in training. You mentioned Academy earlier on. Yes. Right. So tell me about that, man.

624
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:44,640
I mean, I thought just now you also mentioned, uh, you know, parents, you know, next door and when they,

625
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:50,320
in the school kind of thing, right. Kids are there and then they, they complain about all your, your

626
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:55,600
kids are watching violence and listening to violence happening stuff, but then you have a kids Academy.

627
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:04,320
Yes, we do. We do. So to be clear, it's not a kids Academy. Uh, so we don't train like, like a five

628
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,400
year old kids on a regular basis. Not yet. Not yet. Tell me about it. Um, so the youngest we have now,

629
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:14,160
I believe is, um, 11 or 12 years old. Okay. We've trained 10 year olds before as well. Um, so these

630
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:19,360
are very much usually on, on requests. So we do find parents who find that, Hey, my kid, uh, loves

631
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:26,000
playing with wrestling toys, for example, watching, uh, wrestling on Netflix or TV. Uh, and he's got so

632
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,040
much energy, right? Can you take him in and teach him to, you know, learn wrestling in a safe and

633
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,240
positive environment? So we have done that. Uh, someone brought in his 16 year old kid and said,

634
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:40,800
Hey, prepare him for NS. I said, wow, sure. I said, yeah, I said, yeah, you know, this is the

635
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:46,480
performance, not the MMA. Yeah, I know, I know. I want him to learn confidence because he's very shy.

636
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,560
Oh, so we realized, oh, there is, there is something here. Right. So 16 year old kid,

637
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:56,240
yeah. Just pre waiting, uh, 17. So waiting to sort of waiting for the call up to go to BMT.

638
00:51:56,240 --> 00:52:00,320
Right. So that's what the, that's what the request was. So we know there is some demand

639
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:05,680
that has come up over time. The only part I am not confident in is, is delivering something without

640
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,280
having say a partner who has very strong experience with children. Yeah. Cause that's

641
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,480
a very specific skill set pedagogies. Yeah, exactly. Right. So we don't want to go there

642
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,480
and just like anyhow, nah, here's the same thing, but for kids, we think we need to solve. So it's

643
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,440
not an official thing. It's not an official thing. Um, no, not yet. Having said that we have worked

644
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,600
with international schools before and we have trained kids as young as four years old. Kai,

645
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,840
can you play that video please, Kai? Oh, which one is this? Right. Uh, with the kids.

646
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:38,960
Ah, is this, is this one of it? No, I think these are probably not this one, Kai. 17, 18. This guy is.

647
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:44,800
This is the one that is labeled as kids. Yeah. Oh, this is the one. Okay.

648
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:53,360
So he's still a kid, man. He's 17, 18. Yeah. It's still young. So yeah, but not, not like five or

649
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,520
so. Right. So what is the only video I can find? That's good. We go home. I'll pass you something

650
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,920
in the future. Hang on a second. You mean that kid's doing all that with you. Oh yeah. It's a good

651
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:09,280
kid. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That, that, that, come on. The same thing I'm going to ask. This got to hurt. Right. No. Oh,

652
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:14,080
come on. Defense. Right. I could never do shit like that. I'm sure you could. No, I can't.

653
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,840
Nerves in my neck is going to go. Give me like three months. You'll find something.

654
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:28,560
Give me a break, man. You left the door open there for the request. I think, I think it hurts if you're

655
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,560
not well-trained is what I would say. Right. It's like, it's like, you know, it's like, you're going,

656
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:37,280
you go to stunt school, like, like you're not supposed to, to go through pain on a regular basis.

657
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,240
It's not part of it. Right. I mean, if you, because you break fall, people do that all the time in

658
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:46,960
martial arts. Right. So obviously, you know, if you get hit the wrong way, it's going to hurt. Right. So

659
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,800
there is some level of, I would say discomfort, right. That you will go through because it's such

660
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:56,000
a weird motion to go through in pro wrestling. Right. Right. What we are trying to do is not put

661
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,120
it as you got to fight through the pain to get through this. Right. Rather than, you know,

662
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:03,280
wrestle smart, understand how this works and protect yourself in every way possible. Right.

663
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:09,360
Don't take stupid risks just to go and drive your ego. For example. You know what, man? I'm just

664
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,600
going to stand by the sidelines and just watch and enjoy it. That's about the size of it. All right.

665
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,680
I will see you at our next show. You can send me an invite because I really didn't get the last one.

666
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:23,120
All right. That's my fault. I apologize. We'll make it happen. All right. If you could go back,

667
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:29,840
if Greg Ho can go back and give you your younger self, the one quitting his corporate job,

668
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:36,400
that guy, not long ago, one piece of advice, what would that be?

669
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:48,720
Don't wait for perfection. Don't wait for perfection. Just get it out there. Okay. Right.

670
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:52,800
Don't take too long to get it right. That's the most important piece of advice you give your

671
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,200
younger self a few years ago before going full-time. Yeah. I would think so. Right.

672
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:02,400
And I think because we have now sort of forced ourselves to be so aggressive in terms of,

673
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:07,600
let's just try everything. Let's go to corporates. Let's go and run corporate training. Let's go and

674
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:12,240
run boot camps. Let's run this and that. You know, like who's stopping us from running a show for

675
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:15,920
a thousand people, for example. Right. Just go out there and find people who want to work with you

676
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,880
and make it happen. Before it was like, oh, how do we get there? Like, how do we draw the roadmap

677
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,560
to get to that? Right. And sometimes you realize that you don't really need that. Yeah. You're

678
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:30,160
going to find people who buy into your story and, you know, magic sort of happens from there.

679
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:37,680
And at this time in your life, having committed yourself completely full-time on a scale of one

680
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:45,600
to 10 in all true honesty, I know we're on camera, in all honesty, mate, scouts honor, yeah. Scale of

681
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:53,200
one to 10, your confidence level on how far grapple, grab max, I beg your pardon, grab max will go.

682
00:55:54,160 --> 00:56:02,160
Scale of one to 10. Nine. And what's the reason for the one? The one is if we made a gross

683
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:11,280
miscalculation on the market size. People who are out there who watch wrestling, but don't know about

684
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:18,640
us yet. Okay. That's fair. That's the scary part. That's okay. That's very mad. Last question. Okay.

685
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:25,200
It's actually been an hour. Oh really? Yeah. Wow. That was quick. Oh yeah. Real quick. Everyone

686
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:31,040
feels that way. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. Okay. Looking ahead. Okay. What's the one thing you want

687
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:36,720
grapple max to be known for? What legacy, what legacy do you hope to leave on the Singaporean

688
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:46,320
entertainment scene? Um, Asia's biggest pro wrestling company. Oh, now we talking, baby.

689
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:52,480
It has to be. It has to be. It has to be. The whole fucking show. I was just waiting for that.

690
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,160
Yeah. I was waiting for that too. So I'm glad we got it out there.

691
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:03,680
Okay. Can we have, I'm pretty sure I have got that done, Kai. Can we have grapple max come up please?

692
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,400
Let me check. Right.

693
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:15,040
Noah. I don't think so. Oh my. This slice that one out. Okay. Can we put up that picture of

694
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:18,560
the ring again of all of them on the ring of the anniversary picture?

695
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:26,640
Yeah. Let's put that one up. We also have the dropkick picture. Ah, okay. Put that one even

696
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:34,320
better. Here you go, man. Oh wow. This is a long time ago. There it is man. From desk to dropkick.

697
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,640
Incredible. Yeah. And then can we put up the grapple max picture again, man? Who is that guy

698
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:44,160
you were dropkick, dropkicking? He's a Malaysian. So this was one of our. That's a big dude, man.

699
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:49,200
He's a big dude. It's a big dude. Yeah. He once had a show where he, he slammed someone into the

700
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,480
ceiling. Cause that's how tall, that's how tall he was. No shit. And you tell me that doesn't hurt.

701
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:57,920
I thank you very much. Come on, Greg. If you do it well, right? The injuries don't come. I'm a big

702
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:03,040
guy who's a chicken shit. That's the important part. If you do this well and get a good school,

703
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,400
that's the important part. And there you go. The good school people. The pictures up there again.

704
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:12,800
Once again, grapple max. Easy to find them. Google them please. And then, you know, give it a shot,

705
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:19,920
man. Go check out the shows. Have some fun. Bring some popcorn, you know, and scream your lungs out,

706
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:26,480
man. Or even if you want to keep fit, just go down and grapple max. And this is a free show. I just,

707
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,040
I'm not being paid to say all that shit. Yeah. So Greg, thanks again for being on the show, man.

708
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:35,440
Thanks for having me. This is a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean, I had fun. I'm glad you did. And I wish

709
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,920
you the best. Thanks so much. Really. I really wish you the best, man. I mean, this is to me,

710
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:45,520
this is exciting stuff. I hope so. Yeah. So exciting that I would not have left my job.

711
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:51,760
I would have left my full time. It's a tough decision, but hopefully it pays off.

712
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,480
I'm a chicken shit, so I'm not you. Okay, man. Thanks again. Thank you so much. Everyone,

713
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:02,400
thanks for watching. The Chris Hansen Conversation is still season five. We are midway through,

714
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:06,960
actually. Almost midway through the season. But please keep watching us every Friday,

715
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:16,320
8 PM on CCB TV podcast, YouTube. Until next time. Bye bye.