as a result of one speech, how many more bookings you get.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, so my mentor, he got a total of 18 bookings.
Okay.
So you can imagine it was a big event.
We had leaders from 10 different countries.
Guess how many bookings I got?
How many?
Zero.
Okay.
Yeah.
And that was that first identity crisis to say,
am I fit to do this speak and entertain job?
Because fundamentally, you know, I don't think I'm an entertainer.
Today, this guest in my studio is going to pop my cherry.
Pop your cherry.
Let me tell you why you'll be popping my cherry today.
Because right now, we are into season four.
And you, not the first episode though, but you are our first shoot.
First shoot.
This is the first shoot for the new season.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
I thought agent two was the...
So it's the third season.
No, this is the season four.
So you are my first guest for season four, man.
You just popped my cherry, dude.
Cheers.
My pleasure, my pleasure.
On a Friday afternoon.
Now everybody knows this is a Friday afternoon.
It's a Friday afternoon.
And very happy, of course, to get behind this hot seat.
My goodness gracious me.
It's just nice, not too warm.
My seat's always hot.
And it's great to be back because how long...
Can I take a break for?
Two months?
About two months, right?
So we took a two-month break.
Season three is still being aired at this time of the shoot.
And of course, after two months coming back, I said,
Oh my, it's been some time.
So what do I do?
Who should I invite in the show?
And what I've done is, people, we are still rolling,
and I know that you're watching.
So what I've done is I made a decision.
I'm going to ask this young man to come into the studio.
As you can tell, right now, we are now definitely starting the show.
And I want to read out some credentials to make you understand why
I've decided to have this young person here on my gig.
Welcome to the Chris Hansen Conversation for season four.
And my guest for the show is the youngest certified speaking professional,
and accolade for the top 12% of professional speakers,
executive speaking coach, and specialist in helping leaders
and professionals be top of mind.
I've got to find out what the fuck that means.
As a public speaking coach and professional speaker,
my guest partners his executive clients from companies,
loads of them from banks to stat boards, etc., etc.
To enhance their performance on stage, sounds like my fucking job.
And communicate effectively across generations, definitely not my job.
He is also one of the youngest associate certified coach.
How many things does this guy have?
In Singapore and APAC, credentialed by the International Coach Federation.
His work has also been covered on over 60 occasions
on over 10 media platforms like Channel News Asia,
Radio Television Hong Kong, and The Straits Times.
And of course today, the biggest one of all,
CCB TV on a Chris Hansen Conversation.
I'm not shy. Fuck that.
To everyone, please welcome to the studio for this episode of I love my job series,
Benjamin Lo!
Welcome to the studio, my friend.
Thank you so much, Chris.
It's like almost like deja vu.
I still could recall like, was it like over a decade back?
It was in Ayur Raja.
Good gosh.
Good gosh, right?
Like I was your student, I was your mentee in the MC Academy.
Your virgin batch, right?
So that time you popped my cherry.
We take turns, man.
We take turns.
Ben, thank you for being here, man.
I'm very proud of your achievements.
I'm very proud of all these things I've just read out, dude.
I mean, wow, wowee.
Your dream, wasn't it?
It's always been your dream.
Well, I think dream is a huge, huge word.
I mean, there's different renditions, different backstories I like to tell.
I mean, as far as I could recall, I was a petulant, overweight, chubby kid.
No shit, come on.
Yeah, I was.
I was.
I still am, you know, with like different parts of-
Are you kidding me?
Don't say that in front of me.
No, we're both on camera right now, man.
Come on.
Thankfully, with the cameras and technology, they can do a bit of like a smooth thing.
Oh yeah, I wish.
For real, for real, for real.
Like when I was much, much younger, the peak weight was like three digits, right?
And three digits was quite confronting for someone at 12, 13 years old.
You were three digits at 12, 13?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was like morbidly obese and you can imagine the kind of like confidence I had,
the kind of like self-esteem or the lack of I had.
But one thing I always recall, because you asked me about my dream, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I would come back from primary school or secondary school and my grandma was saying,
oh, go and bathe, go and bathe and she was a Hainanese matriarch.
But thankfully I was a boy and the only boy in the family.
So, you know, I had a bit of like a bargaining power.
So I was saying, no, grandma, I'm not going to bathe.
And what did a boy do back then was that my eyes were all glued to the television.
Yeah.
And what was on the television was not like, you know, the cartoons or documentaries or
not even news, God for sake.
It was like a Mandarin debate in Chinese is called 國際大專辯論會
or in English is the International Varsity Debate.
And I didn't know why, but you know, I was just like mesmerized.
How old were you then? Were you watching that?
13, 14 years old.
Okay.
Yeah. And I still didn't know like what that meant to me.
I just saw people like having verbal sparring.
They were so eloquent, so composed.
Debates.
Ternesh. Yeah, debates.
And I said like, wow, like I do not know what I'm going to do,
but if I could get a bit of that, that would be a bit of my dream.
Really?
So what you're saying to me is that, okay, okay.
So what I said about this is your dream job.
And so therefore, this was a dream.
It still is a dream, right?
I mean, when you were 13, 14, you were watching TV,
you're watching the varsity debates in Chinese.
And you're going, wow, I want to be like them.
So this is a dream.
But you said dream is a big word.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because dream is a big word when it starts to hit reality, right?
So obviously when I started to go through school
and both of us are sort of in Singapore,
I think the society has a different plan for me.
I studied, like went through the usual school, JC, university.
I had placement to even go to the UK to study economics,
which, you know, required me to get a sort of scholarship.
I turned it down and then I asked myself what they want to do.
So when I was on my bed in NS, I was like, wow, what should I do?
I was flipping through the magazines of Forbes and Fortune
and they said investment banking, sort of like graduates make five figures.
So I stupidly just did that.
But the back story was that my mom was so,
she used to sell golf clubs all living.
She said, you know, Ben, just go become a CFO.
And I asked her like, hey mom, why?
Why CFO? Is it like because it got C?
No, it's the C, F and O because she reports to the chief financial officer.
And in Hokkien, she say, you know, every month, just yin yin ting ting,
just shake the legs and he'll be drawing like 20K.
So it's study accounting, finance, and that would be it.
Story has that after the first year,
I realized that I was never a numbers guy.
I could never balance my cash flow statements.
Everyone was left and right was balancing.
You know, I was the cuckoo.
I just never tie in that 20 cent, 30 cent.
It's like, I look at myself, I felt like a retard in accounting school.
Yeah, I studied accounting in a big three university
and my professors always ask me like, why are you here?
Yeah, why are you here?
And that bad, huh?
Yeah, that bad.
And that was when I had my existential crisis.
I went through a life coaching program.
I decided to say, hey, maybe my talents were in teaching.
Can I stop you there for a moment?
Please do.
Let me just bring you way back again.
Yeah.
Let's go back to you as a kid.
You were saying you had self-esteem issues, etc., etc., etc.
What did it make you say, you know, when you were in your teen years?
How would you describe yourself back then?
Would you have described yourself to be someone that would be what you are today?
Standing on stage, teaching people how to be, how to speak in public,
and everything else that you do today.
When you look at yourself back then...
I think they always say like, hindsight is 20-20.
I like to, you know, like with the benefit of hindsight, say,
ah, everything was made to be like this.
But I think the best way I would look at it was like, you know,
another mentor told me there's a difference between scars and wounds.
Okay.
Yeah.
So back then, I was wounded.
Going through school, boy school for 10 years, and then,
and boys being in boy school, right, it's not like when girls are around,
everyone will be very gentlemanly, you know, like show the door,
you know, they give me the middle finger.
They were just like...
Which school is this, don't mind me asking.
Oh yeah, St. Andrews.
I went to St. Andrews.
I went to St. Andrews and then Maristella.
Oh, the rough and rugged guys.
Yeah, but you know, the guys there, you know, they are the nice guys.
It's a rugby school, man, as far as I'm concerned.
Maristella was a mixed bag.
It's a Chinese school and got a few like Pai Kea there.
So you, I mean Maristella, Pai Kea is nothing compared to...
Yeah, compared.
Everything's relative.
Yeah, but then again, so when you, in being in Maristella,
would you describe yourself to be a smart kid academically?
I felt that I had to be smart to find some sense of self-esteem.
Right.
Yeah, so my whole journey was that I was being bullied in school.
I was bad at sports or at least I thought I was.
I was bad at, you know, chasing girls.
There weren't any girls anyway, except for a boy scout going to like girl gags,
you know, all these big events.
I had social anxiety issues.
I can't look at girl in an eye and without my leg shaking, it was that bad.
So the only area or only place I could find some worth was in my academics.
Right.
And I did well in school, got top three, stuff like that.
So that was how I constantly pursue, pursue, push, push, push, push, push.
I find I needed to use schooling as a way to validate myself.
Right.
Yeah.
So it was kind of sad, but you see like that was the period where I was wounded.
Right.
Now, as I look back and say, ah, because of all this bully history,
all the social anxiety issues, all those like a lack of significance.
Now, because of all that, that sort of fuels me in terms of what I do.
So when you watched the Varsity Debates back then, when you were in your early teens, right?
Yeah.
And you were, lack of a better term, mesmerized by what you saw.
I was, I was.
Yeah.
So being mesmerized by what you saw, and then you were bullied in school,
you lean on your academics to get yourself great there.
Throughout that time, did you still hold on to that dream of being able to do what?
To be a speaker or a debater?
Not at all.
Then, okay.
So what happened to that drive then?
At 13, 14, watching the Varsity Debates and go, wow, you know, if I can only do that.
Yeah.
So what did you do to get yourself, I mean, even at that young age,
I just want to understand, was there, did that seed really sprout as you were growing?
Did you find a way to be the Benjamin Lowe of today and the last, how long has it been?
More than a decade of doing what you've been doing successfully.
Yeah.
What's that journey like?
Was there something in that journey that led you there from that time?
Because I don't know, for all you know, man, you've got parents watching the show,
kids shouldn't be watching the show.
You've got parents watching the show, right?
And these parents might want to try to understand that how would I get my kid
to do what Ben has done?
Or maybe they should just leave it to the kid.
I would say leave it to the kid.
But just in case you got some of these, you know,
these parents who just like to do some helicoptering.
Yeah.
I say that, I say that as a sigh because I need to really preface, right?
I mean, first and foremost, I don't even know whether parents would want their children to be
in my life, in my shoes.
I like to say- Why not?
Well, I'm doing as a result of like, I mean, on one part, I love the work I do.
I feel that it's full of impact.
It's creating a lot of like very tangible moments of joy of the kind of results.
But you see, my trajectory into it wasn't clean.
Sure.
Yeah.
It wasn't clean in that sense.
Not that, you know, I had like a few intentions.
So, Ben, are you saying to me then that maybe this is something that, you know,
people should not endeavor to become?
I think you should endeavor to become if your intentions are definitely clean,
you're aware and you know what you're stepping to.
So is it worth the while for them?
Well, it all depends.
Yeah.
I mean, it's going to be a rough road.
Like, I mean, I'm happy to share in my latter chapters of like what it takes to be a speaker,
to be paid, to be paid well, to be sustainable.
I will come to that because I have that ready for you actually, but let's not talk about that yet.
So, okay, let's listen to your journey then.
Yeah.
So for you, was it accidental?
It was accidental.
So you use the right word, it's a seed, right?
So I look at seed because the seed was just planted in me.
Right.
And when I look at the debaters, it was really like, wow, if I could be having the kind of
like significance as them.
But you see, sometimes when we want something, it's a sign that we lack it inside.
Mm-hmm.
So for me, I don't want to overcomplicate things, but you know, when 13, 14 years was really
at my lowest where I didn't feel that there was a sense of self-worth and it was like,
and it was also because, you know, like our pre-conversations, my dad, my mom was so busy
working, I wish someone would just like sit down with me, take me to school and say, hey,
like Ben, what exactly do you want to do?
Right.
You see, so that seed was like something that I had to grab for.
It was not something that was brought up from within me.
Right.
Yeah.
So I could imagine, I don't know, right?
Because if someone that I trust, I look up to, I love, could sit me through that painful
growing up years, I may be doing something different.
Right.
Maybe artist, musician, I mean, something else.
Right.
Yeah.
But it was a seed that was planted and made sense of it.
It's a bit like, you know, I was forced, I won't say I was forced, I was inspired to
love what I did and thankfully for the large part of it, I really love it.
When you say someone that you know that you love, that means a loved one.
Yeah.
Right?
A parent, elder, senior.
Oh sure.
Yeah.
Who would sit down with you and give you some guidance, is that what you're saying?
Yeah.
Now, which means what you're saying is that it is important throughout most parts of our
lives to have someone who knows better, our betters basically, to mentor us.
Is that what you're saying?
I would say to mentor, but more importantly to give space.
Can I tell a quick story?
Sure, please.
Yeah.
So in my earlier years, you know, when I was featured as like a sort of like a highly
achieving youth, back then when I was still qualified to be a youth at SMU, you know,
I still recall I was on the Sunday Times.
It was like, you know, the all performing or the star youth whatsoever.
I then received an email which led to a call the very, very like, you know, a couple of days later.
It was like this lady from bank.
And I was wondering like, you know, like why did she want to meet me?
She said, hey, I want you to coach my son.
I said, okay.
Back then I was doing a bit of youth coaching, but I didn't know why.
So until I realized that after I met her, she said that her relationship with her son was
trained and she wanted me to coach her son for her son to do something like me.
Then the first reflex was that what made you think that your son wanted to do whatever I'm doing?
Yeah.
You see?
Yeah.
So that was in a case, good intentions, but is that really what the son want?
It's not giving space to the son, right?
So I had to turn down the job because, you know, I don't want to be responsible for
steering someone down that path that, you know, he or she will be unhappy with.
Yeah.
So why did I say this?
Yeah.
Like, so you said mentor, right?
So I think mentor is like that assumption that, you know, you want to linearly lead
the person down a sort of a path.
But then again, some parents are not fit to be mentoring.
Exactly.
Right.
I would say like mentoring, coaching, giving space, but really...
This is shoving it down the kid's throat, that is, right?
Yeah.
Like this example you just cited.
Correct.
Because they saw me on the papers as like a highly achieving kid, but they didn't know
like, you know, I was highly happy as a kid.
I was highly joyful as a kid.
So they've actually placed an expectation on the child.
Yeah.
Which it might not really be suited to the kid.
The kid might not have that same expectation.
And then we all grow up living other people's expectations rather than ours.
Someone else's life, someone else's dreams.
Yeah.
Fuck me.
Tell me all about that.
Yeah.
It hurts, man.
It does.
Let's not go to a pain here.
It does.
We need a little Kleenex right now.
So you fell into this.
So it was actually kind of accidental.
It was very accidental.
But you knew always that you've had this draw towards being able to speak well publicly.
Is that the right way for me to describe this?
I think speaking well publicly is the function of it.
It's a prerequisite.
But I think the debate story planted the need to want to be useful.
To have the ability to persuade, convince.
Then later parts of different mentors I met, it's like,
think this mega jigsaw puzzle.
Oh, what it means by the speaker is you can sort of travel the world.
Ah, I like that.
Oh, what it means by a speaker means that, no,
you have a big mandate and responsibility on stage.
You better don't screw that up.
You don't talk out on stage.
Ah, I want that.
So I sort of like to each and every, the people I look up to,
even for you, like when I went for your class and FD,
I will always recall the kind of meticulousness you all put,
the kind of intention you all put.
You all say the MCs are not just MCs, you know, reading out scripts,
setting the tone, setting the energy.
You see, more than 10 years, I still recall.
It's like that also applies to me as a speaker.
You see, you don't just go there and say a bunch of words.
It's all about the kind of frame of mind.
So with all the teachers I learned, I think I then have a map or a jigsaw puzzle
that comprise or builds up what I believe this occupational profession should be.
So when you mentioned this occupation profession is strictly as a speaker, right?
But you picked a subject matter and the subject matter,
I think you have a few, but what I gather for what the public can see is public speaking.
Yeah.
Am I right?
Why that discipline?
Well, I started out coaching youths in public speaking,
particularly because that was my call to courage, my call to
maturity as well, because I felt that, you know, back then I didn't have many things
that I could be good at, or at least that was what I thought.
I was better at arts, I was better at sports.
I was better at chasing girls.
You know, I'm not even like, you know, having like cheesy looks.
The only thing I could do is like, I can speak quite okay.
Can you imagine if Benjamin Lowe becomes a speaker about how you can actually chase girls?
Yeah.
That'd be great, man.
But you see, it's all the narratives that we had in our head, right?
So that was why, you know, like I, again, I don't blame my dad or my mom.
You know, they did the best that they could, but you see now in my role, I feel I'm a bit more aware.
I want to be nurturing my three-year-old to say, hey, you know, as you go down there,
I love the conversation you had is you have that awareness to build up the map for your kid to say,
hey, if you go down that path, this is the potential consequences, both the good, both the bad.
If you go down this, this is what you should consider, you see.
Well, I want to dissect this, Ben.
I'm still trying to understand.
I know it's very murky.
Of all, yeah, because of all the things out there that one can actually specialize in,
specialize and speak about.
You chose public speaking.
Yeah.
I'd like to dissect that.
I'd like to understand what is it about public speaking that got to you,
that made you want to take this on and go, I want to teach people that.
But I think before you do that, right, correct me if I'm wrong,
you want to make sure that you can do it first.
Did you do that first?
What did you do?
I think for me, the easiest iteration would be, you know, I had to find my voice first.
Yeah.
So metaphorically to discover like, you know, I had a voice inside, you know, but I was voiceless.
So sometimes I block on LinkedIn to say, growing up, I literally had all the good grades, you know,
the A's, the PSLE and stuff like that, but I didn't really feel that, you know, I was having a voice.
It was just like going through the motion.
And I think my first call to maturity was learning how to speak.
And when, again, it sounds very fluffy, but when you put content into the speech,
when you bring the words out from you and you feel what you say and you say what you feel,
it was when I felt that I was really alive.
Okay.
So you felt that, hey, I like this.
Yeah.
As a 19, 20 years old, when I started to do like maybe Toastmasters, hey, I realized that I can speak.
And sometimes I speak and I make sense.
So you found your voice.
Yeah.
Okay.
And it was that journey.
And then, you know, piecing back my backstory as a bully victim, as a victim,
bully victim, my backstory as a self-esteem, low self-esteem person, being in a sort of like every
Singaporean family, you know, I didn't have like the best tuition, like no, some kids does,
sending you to Julia Gabriel and debate and whatnot.
You know, my family is not like that well-to-do, but I still could speak.
I won a couple of trophies and then say, hey, if I could do it, how about I teach people how to do it?
So then the second tier of work where, you know, people start to come to me of different sorts,
background, all walks of life.
I say, hey, like, how do I speak?
How do I find my voice?
So that was the second tier.
So when you attended this Toastmasting and all that, you found your voice.
At which stage of your life was that?
19, 20 years old.
Okay.
Then before you started work, right?
So when you started, now I'm going to move you forward.
Yeah.
From where we left off earlier on.
When you, investment banking, right?
And then, honestly-
I hope the bankers are not listening.
Honestly, if I don't know you, if anyone don't know you, I would actually easily think that
people would actually, you would look like a banker.
Really?
Like, what aspects of it?
Hair?
Yeah.
Everything about you, man.
Really?
Yeah.
If I didn't know you and I didn't know what you do, I would have thought this guy's a banker.
Probably private banker.
How come?
I don't know.
This is a vibe.
The PB vibes.
They're too slick, too slippery to be true.
Okay.
I don't know.
PB, I can think of a lot of bad words, but let's not go there.
Let's not add anymore like alphabets between P and B.
So, you did go into investment banking.
No, I didn't.
You didn't.
Okay.
Then what did you do?
You didn't go into public speaking or became a speaker, shut away.
Yeah.
So what did you do?
So during my uni years, I had a inkling that, ah, agar agar, what I wanted to do,
what I didn't want to do.
So it was more like reductionist.
Accountancy.
Yeah.
So I did my first, like, oh, God forbid, three months of internship with a taxation firm.
Right.
And every single day, I kid you not, was like going to office and seeing this like a
Taiwanese drama unfold.
I could literally just step into office.
The auntie in front there, I still could recall she used the new clip, but clip, clip, clip.
And every day she would do that thing.
I wonder like how many nails she could cut like every single day.
And then she would start her routine.
And then the left-hand side was the tax manager and then she'll be bitching.
I mean, to be fair, it was SME.
So you wouldn't expect anything more.
But even the work that they were doing, like, and the kind of lives that they were living,
I mean, with due respect, we all choose different lives, right?
I couldn't imagine myself going through the drudgery of accounting.
So I reduced that.
I eliminated that.
So I was that weird kid in uni, like people just usually take one or two internships.
I think I did six internships.
I did accounting.
I did like PR.
I did like marketing.
I joined over 30 competitions.
So I did like, for example, you know, how to design the future police post.
I was like so bored with school.
I went to write an essay on like, what's that meant in the,
meant in the middle attacks for cybersecurity.
The reason why was one,
I was bored.
I wanted some fun.
And then two, I wanted some funds as well, right?
Because when I won competitions, I earned some pocket money.
Right.
Yeah. So that four years, because I did so badly in accounting school,
I realized that it was like a, just like at the day end,
nobody told me again, like, nobody told me that if you screw up,
you get one C or one D, one E, your GPA is screwed, right?
Your grade point average.
Right.
So when I realized my grades were down, then I said the only way is up and out.
So I did so many things.
So long story short, at the end of four years, I had an offer from Big Four.
I decided not to go into accounting firm and I did sales.
I did corporate sales training.
Sorry. I did sales for a corporate sales training company.
Okay.
Yeah. So that was like my first and only job.
For how long were you?
And that was the time I went for the MC academy.
Oh, that was a time.
How long were you there?
How long? I was there for about one year, nine months.
Not very long.
And that was it?
Yeah. And my-
Being on the employment, that was it?
I was very, very thankful.
I had two uncle bosses, both of them were from America.
So one was like very, very like chubby, very cringy.
Another one was like, no, the opposite is a military man.
He's a West Point graduate and no DISC profiling.
Right. You say, man, I have no I, S and C. I only have D.
And what it means in very layman human terms is that it's just like a-
Dominant.
Dominant, domineering person.
He has no relational.
There's no steadiness.
Oh dear.
And I would always recall, my first task on that job was doing cold calls.
He would tell me like, man, you don't have to like to do cold calls.
You just have to do it in a freaking military style.
So you see, there's not much of emotions when it comes to like doing business.
But I was thankful to have them, you see, because they gave me the blessings as well.
They say, you can do whatever you want.
Do your psych hustle, do your speech coaching, your public speaking.
You can do, do, do.
So long you hit your numbers on a day job.
Right.
Yeah. So I had a lot of freedom.
I know I was in an office that basically only like two others
and they were remotely in Hong Kong.
Sometimes they flew in.
I did that for one year, nine months.
And I think I hit my numbers.
I was like making five figures, not too bad for a fresh graduate.
But then it hit the existential crisis again.
I asked myself like, what's the future?
Like, do I want to continue to sell, sell, sell?
Like, I mean, the money was good, but besides the money and beyond the money,
I didn't see that there was a path.
So again, I'm going to be, I'm asking the same question in a different format.
Yeah.
Because as you tell me your journey, right?
The story of your life as you go get along.
The temperature.
Yeah. I will ask the same question in different form.
The calling.
There wasn't a calling yet at that time to do what you're doing now.
I think there was, there was always voices.
Sounds very creepy.
Yeah.
No, no, it's fine.
Yeah.
There were always things that caught up to me,
but that magnitude of that, the nature of that, the reasons of that,
the strength of that was always varying.
So, so I think at the, at that time was like mid to late twenties,
like calling for me was that if you don't take a leap, you'll regret this.
You know, you're making this sound as if you're going to be called to the priesthood.
Yeah.
Caught to the pulpit, right?
Yeah.
Caught to be a priest, being a clergy.
So this has never been an ambition actually.
Never, never, never.
Never been.
Not like I, like me again, I like to say in my industry now that I do work with insurance agents,
right?
Nobody wakes up to be an insurance agent.
I didn't wake up to be a professional speaker, right?
The only thing was that TV and say, hey, if only I could be as like persuasive,
significant as them.
It was just that seed of significance, but I didn't have that totality that wow.
And the consciousness would say, oh, I want to fly, I want to travel, I want to get a boat,
I want to get like five figure suites, blah, blah, blah.
No, no, none of that.
But you discovered that you were good at it and you liked it and you enjoy it.
Yeah.
Am I getting all these pieces right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I think the simple again, if I can put it into a very, very quick framework and I'm more
like a framework structure guy.
Sure.
I call this like four P's which I inherited from my mentors.
Spoken like a true trainer.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Four pieces.
Yeah.
Okay.
The first P is the proficiency.
Four P's.
Four P's, four P's, right?
Four P-A-S-P's, right?
The first P is the proficiency.
Right.
I suck at numbers.
I suck at academics.
Yeah.
Or rather in numbers and finance.
But what came natural to me was talking, right?
Like when I talk to people, I could listen when I need to listen.
Mm-hmm.
I could talk and be fluid when I need to speak.
Mm-hmm.
So they say, hey, maybe there's something down there.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And then the second part is like profits.
So the first part was, you know, I could teach, I could talk, but you know, hey, why don't I
become quote unquote MOE teacher?
But I realized, you know, like being a teacher with all due respect again, I don't think I
would earn enough for what kind of life that I wanted to, right?
So I had to be practical to be paid to speak.
Where could I go to?
Right.
So I need to map that.
And I think the third part is the purpose, the profit, the purpose as well as passion.
Have you ever asked yourself what's the root word of passion?
The what?
Root word.
Root word?
Yeah.
Like, you know, if you go back to the history and what's the root word of passion?
No.
It comes from this Latin word called PATHI, P-A-T-I.
Okay.
Which means to suffer.
Mm-hmm.
So a lot of us thinks that, you know, like to be a musician, wow, it's my passion, right?
Just to share with you.
Not that you've given some light on that word, passion in Latin is PATHI.
Yeah.
Excuse me.
That's why in the Catholic church, you know, when Jesus Christ was on his way suffering
to his death, right?
They call it the passion of the Christ.
Yeah.
Exactly, right?
So we, I think like even as a young person, I was sold into this dream like, oh, passion
means you're going to be enjoying each and every freaking day.
But it was that inkling and that remembrance of like passion, ego, suffering.
What am I willing to suffer for the long run?
So I tried different things, but you know, like going through being on stage, having
like audiences walk out on me, having like screwed up gigs.
Did you have that?
Have.
Wow.
I can share with you like some gigs where, you know, I was doing for a client.
What you call them gigs?
Yeah.
Gigs, assignments, pretty really call it gigs, assignments, shows where I had to speak
Mandarin, for example.
I had people just literally walk out on me because I was that unprofessional.
And I would just go back being an introvert.
I locked myself in a hotel room for a good eight hours.
Ah, you just said that word for me.
Which word?
Introvert.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How, how, okay.
So, so right now people, we have a guy who says he's an introvert and he actually teaches
people public speaking.
So tell me about that.
How would, how that became possible, man?
How did you do that?
It's hard to actually narrow down.
Let's just talk it through.
Let's just talk it through, man.
How do I do that?
I think, you know, it's what is called uncanny.
I just wrote a bit more like a disgruntled LinkedIn post today.
And this was really like, you know, a message, an insurance student yesterday wrote to me.
He was writing to say, hey, I'm introvert coming into the sales and insurance line.
It's not easy.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It's not easy to put me out or put himself out there.
And then at the back of my mind is like a, who says it's not easy?
Who says it's not easy?
Why can't it be easy?
Right?
So where I'm driving at was that disgruntledness was that I think we need to really like examine
like does introversion really is a handicap or is introversion, can it be a strength?
Yeah.
In my opinion, like what totally clicked from within me was that I could be really,
really honest on the CCB show.
Sure, please.
CCB TV show.
Yeah.
CCB TV show.
With Chris Hansen conversation more exactly, more precisely.
Yeah, with Mr. Chris Hansen, the affable Mr. Chris Hansen.
Oh, thank you.
Very affable.
In more ways than one.
I mean, we can take that word out of context.
Oh, that's fine.
Yeah.
Let's not go between the lines.
Okay.
Let's talk about, let's stop talking about the affable Chris.
I think it's very palpable.
Yeah.
It's very felt.
But you see in the speaking world, yeah, I can tell you another back of stories, right?
Okay.
So my journey was I coach people how to speak.
I was a trainer, but my journey to be a professional speaker was yet another trajectory.
Sure.
Let's not forget what we were talking about.
We're saying disgruntledness about what makes you think an introvert cannot make it in what
you're doing.
Specifically because today's topic is about you and what you do, not just selling.
Yeah, sure.
But of course, being an extrovert doesn't necessarily agree or disagree.
Doesn't necessarily mean that you do well in both disciplines as well,
but it's selling or whether or not speaking.
Yeah.
So what is it then?
I think whether for speaking, selling, building a brand, building a business.
Sure, sure.
Just a set of fundamental.
So what is it?
What is it about an introvert, a person who is introvert, with his introvertedness.
Yeah.
Being able to successfully do something of his chosen path or career that people would say
belongs solely, well, the small minded, narrow minded ones will think that way,
belongs solely to the extrovert.
So what is it about the introvert then?
Let's talk about that.
I think the easiest way would be to tell you the story of one gig.
All right.
So I was speaking in Phuket by a live insurance client and there were three other speakers.
So one was the former CEO of AirAsiaX, he's a very suave, very eloquent gentleman.
Right.
Second was the Google APEC HR director.
Right.
The third was a mentor of mine who was also in the speaking industry.
And then there was me.
So back then, you know, it was a hard journey to become a professional speaker.
What is a professional speaker?
A speaker who gets paid to speak.
Sure.
So I was like, you know, doing full day training is more like a training persona.
Training means you're going to download and share and use a lot of slides.
Yeah.
But as a professional speaker, your time is compressed to one, two hours.
You need to, bam, you need to be a storyteller.
Yeah.
You need to be energetic.
You need to be dynamic.
Or at least that was what I thought.
So we ended the entire event.
The client came to me and said, Ben, I think you need to be a bit more peacock.
Then I scratched my head and said, what do you mean?
Right.
So I later realized, you know, the effectiveness of a speaker usually can be measured,
not just in amount of claps, standing ovations, but in a commercial sense.
As a result of one speech, how many more bookings you get.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
So my mentor, he got a total of 18 bookings.
So you can imagine it was a big event.
We had leaders from 10 different countries.
Guess how many bookings I got?
How many?
Zero.
Okay.
Yeah.
And that was the first identity crisis to say, am I fit to do this speak and entertain job?
Because fundamentally, you know, I don't think I'm an entertainer.
Yeah.
So tying back to, you know, like how does introversion or the lack of, or introversion,
is it a strength handicap?
You know, I had this like tenuous relationship.
I almost like say, you know, like screw this.
I'm not going to do this.
You know, I'm just going to do like maybe just coaching and workshop training.
But just one part of me say that, hey, there must be something me.
Sure.
Yeah, and I sort of pursued that.
I sort of found again, quote unquote, again, my voice.
I realized that people don't need me to be Rara.
People don't like me to be someone that's from Boyan.
I decided to drop in all those colorful suits and just like wear plain blue, white.
Right.
And then when I spoke, I spoke from the depth of my knowledge of the industry,
of whatever I was teaching.
So a bit of context again, as a speaker, I teach people that, you know, they have an identity,
right?
They can brand themselves, they should put themselves on social media because that's
how people discover that.
Yeah.
So that's the final endpoint or rather today this endpoint.
I'm not too sure where I lost you, but that's the entire kind of journey.
I see.
So basically what you're saying is that if you're an introvert and you can't be that
flamboyant persona, don't force yourself to be one.
But instead, lean your strengths on the things that would really, you know, shout it out more.
Shout your strengths out more.
Yeah.
Is that what you're saying?
But first of all, you have to be aware and recognize what those strengths are.
And on the flip side, that's where I think, you know, like we've sort of wrong introverted
people for so long.
You see, like when I was growing up introversion was never a word.
People were saying like, Ben, you're very quiet.
You're very awkward.
I still remember my report card as like Ben does well in school, he's great at academics,
but maybe he should speak up more.
Yeah.
Right.
So it was like shy, awkward and sheers, blah, blah, blah.
It's only in this era that introversion is accepted.
But if we look at introversion as a construct, like realize that if you're an introvert
listening, you know, you have so many great talents that you're having.
Like you have the benefit and gift of intuition.
You'll tend to be more observant.
You don't need to speak up when you don't feel like speaking up.
You're more observant.
You're more empathetic.
All of that, right?
It's all harnessing all this good stuff to put it into a business context.
And then of course, basically let it really fly.
Bring it out into the open and shout all these out.
Make sure people know that.
To be a bit more peacock in a dove way.
Yeah.
Wow. My goodness. We're going into transactional analysis.
Bird's theory, man.
Bird's theory.
Okay. You can tell I'm a peacock too.
I've got some eagle as well.
Yeah.
Don't we all.
I think having ego is a healthy state of like being us all.
Sure. But if we go on too much and there's a lot of people out there
who have never gone through this.
The bird's theory, they're going to be kind of lost.
I asked about introvertedness because I also feel that it's
unfair for introverts to be stereotyped into certain moles.
For example, you know, I work with a lot of people from all walks of life
and comedians, great ones even.
Even our own local comedians.
Do you know most of them are introverts, man?
These guys that go on stage.
Is it a different persona?
Is it like a.
Yeah. When they go on stage, man,
you recognize them for who they are on stage.
You go stand up.
And stand up is the hardest thing, in my opinion.
It's freaking difficult.
The hardest thing to do, man.
I'm sorry, but even if you do public speaking courses for that,
not going to work.
It's different.
I've always admitted to the fact that it's hard to teach stand up.
It's more a fact it's near impossible.
You've got to find it within you to do it.
You know, not just your content, but how you deliver it
and how you deal with hackers and blah, blah, blah.
I mean, I had Rishi here as well.
But they're great guys.
They're nice people.
But most of them are introverts.
The moment they're off stage.
That's it?
Different.
I'm going to find my space.
Yeah, different, man.
Different, you know.
So I think being an introvert is a strength.
And I'm an extrovert, yeah.
But I am.
Aware extrovert.
I'm also aware of my introverted side.
Yeah.
Every one of us has it.
Correct.
It's not as if we're all devoid of that.
We have it.
We are more like ambiverts as well.
It's depending on the context as well as what's our leanings.
So you could be an introvert, but you have a bit of extrovertedness in you as well.
You know, there's no way it's absent.
There's no way.
It's just about finding it and digging that out.
As you said very, you know, quite coincidentally,
it is finding your voice.
And I think that's what happened.
With hearing and listening to your journey, how I see it, I might be wrong.
But how I see it is that when you found your voice, you found that little piece of you
in part of that jigsaw puzzle that, you know, this is my introvertedness that's there.
Maybe you didn't see it as that, but I think you found that.
I think you found that bit of you.
It all clicked, you see.
Like for example, like the Poolee story, it became a narrative.
Like, you know, the awkwardness became a narrative.
They're getting rejected by girls.
You know, I even had this nickname called 321.
Three girls that I profess my love to, two swollen teary eyes and one broken heart.
321.
Everything just came together.
Accounting thing.
You see, I think life again is like what Steve Jobs mentioned or said, right?
Like you cannot look, you know, cannot plan your life looking backwards all the time.
You just have to lean forward and trust that dots will all connect.
So that was really, I think, I like to think, you know, the story of my life.
A lot of people say, hey, like how do you become a coach?
How do you, blah, blah, blah.
I didn't know.
I just knew what the next step was.
Right.
And then I had enough courage and ounce of courage to just take one step, one step, one step.
And it just made a bit more sense over time.
But you strike me to be a chap also that sits back and reflect a lot.
I do.
And there are people out there, I think, that don't do that.
They don't sit back and reflect and try to work out what's happening in my life today
in a lot of ways, you know, not just in my social life, but in my professional life.
And people don't sit back to think they just want to get that job.
And then they don't, I'm sorry, Adrian Chu, but I'm going to use what you said.
They don't strategize their way.
Geez, I don't believe I just said that.
It sounds so cheesy.
It sounds so on you, by the way.
Yes, it is.
You know, but you're one of those guys that would do that.
And I think that's important for people to also note.
In your opinion, man, professional opinion, what's important in public speaking?
Wow, that's a huge and loaded question.
I'm sorry.
I always load my questions.
What's important in public speaking?
I mean, I could run a whole day class on that.
No, no, just pick one.
Pick one.
Just if one thing that really clicks with me, I think you need to be useful on stage.
Useful?
Yeah.
Wow.
What does that mean?
Yeah, what it means is for the time that you're on stage, that brings me back to another India,
a conference in India.
I was back then very, very young and formative.
And I was in public speaker.
Everyone was looking at me and then we're all youth from different countries.
And then I had a more like a senior youth who came to me and he was also in public speaking.
And then he said, hey, Ben, great to know you.
And I said, hey, you're in speaking as well.
Why?
He said, well, Ben, for me, speaking is a duty.
I said, sounds like what?
Duty and that's our national service.
No, no, no.
He said, like, you know, if I'm speaking for 10 minutes to 50 people,
I'm taking up 500 minutes of the world's time.
And that always left me, right?
10 minutes, 50 people.
They could be there everywhere.
I mean, granted, their minds could be elsewhere.
Physically, they are there, invested 500 minutes of the world's time with you.
So you could literally be, you know, you're taking up 500 minutes of the entire world's time.
You'd bloody be useful in that capacity, you see.
So that really left, I think, one of the deepest impressions in me
in that, you know, the job of a speaker is not just to fill up air.
Takeaways, you mean?
Yeah.
Making sure that there's at least one good takeaway?
Takeaway in a functional term, you just need to be useful in the time.
And what useful is, is very subjective.
Yeah.
You leave a mark is useful.
Okay.
You get them thinking is useful.
Okay.
You make them feel angry is useful.
Right.
You make them feel silly is useful.
You make them feel hurt is useful.
You make them feel more than how they came in is useful.
So I think it's very dynamic and it really depends who the audience are, who you are.
What do you think is the bridge between you and your audience?
You said earlier that you conduct, of course, training for public speaking, right?
Okay.
I'm not going to ask you to give it a whole gamut of it.
Of course not.
Yeah.
But if I want to ask you top of head, one of the more important tools or technique
that you've used to help executives develop a compelling presentation narrative,
how, what do you do?
How do you get someone going from someone who says, I've, I want to be a better public
speaker or I've never spoken about before because I have a phobia about it.
Is there anything you think you have in your arsenal of techniques or tools
that have brought people to another level?
Wow. Okay. So, so if I go to the tools and techniques again, definitely a lot of things.
Just pick one.
Yeah. Just the biggest one.
Yeah.
Just happened yesterday. So I was coaching a MD of a global American MNC.
So when you look at this chap, you know, he's late forties, he's like achieving,
he's been promoted seven times in the same bank continually, obviously, right?
So, and it's being head hunted to yet another global bank.
So when the first thing I met him is like, are you sure you need like presentation,
communications coaching?
And he said, yes.
Vehemently he said, yes, you know, and that's why he wanted to get started.
And he was serving his gardening leave prior to joining another bank.
So he wanted everything to be cash.
Cause I said, bro, that's not high a role, but you know, since you want it so urgently
and I'm based in Singapore for this month, let's do.
So when I worked with him, I realized that, you know, in spite of his achievements,
he was like, you know, being a top salesperson, he was driven and moved to a role whereby
he needed to be more visible instead of like a small team kind of like, Hey,
sharing of practice results, blah, blah, blah, is going to be more visible globally.
So that was his premise for speaking.
So I'm going to arrive at a tip here.
So when I started working with him yesterday, I realized that, you know, like sometimes
we don't present or we don't speak up for how we are worth and what we are worth.
And what I mean by that is if you imagine his stature, he should be, wow, that kind
of like energy, that kind of presence here.
And when he started to present, I felt it was so safe.
He was like not making his voice heard in all sense of it.
He was not like, you know, like when his department did this, he didn't have a sense
of like ownership or pride.
So these things give away in people when how they present.
So the first reaction is like, Ben, I've been speaking like this all this while.
I say, yup.
I get that is your habitualization, your sort of your habit, but why are you playing it
so safe?
Safe in terms of what?
Content?
Safe in terms of content, safe in terms of delivery, same with us of the sort of like
his stature, his presence.
His stature, his presence, body language.
Yeah.
So he's very clamped up.
Right.
And I basically had to mirror him.
I video recorded and I said like, how would you describe him?
Yeah.
Like if I'm listening to him, I don't even feel that he is speaking like from MD, he's
a managing director, right?
It's more speaking like the stature of like maybe a junior to senior manager.
Yeah.
So what I did was that, you know, I had to get him to be clear of the narratives and
the voices.
So I do this little exercise called like black dogs, white dogs, right?
We have a dog at home in your place, right?
So black dogs are the voices that are disempowering, white dogs are the voices that are empowering.
So I got him to be very clear.
What was his inner game?
What's his inner narrative like?
Because up there, it's really freaking noisy place.
Yeah.
Of all times, especially when you go into nervous, high anxiety situations, speaking,
for example, and then he lists down, okay, my voice dogs are, I'm a subject matter expert.
I led my team.
I'm very proud.
But more important is black dogs that I'm not a good speaker.
And I say, Hey, how does that come about?
So that's where coaching for me is really getting to the story behind the story.
Right.
So what realized for him was that in his early twenties, when he graduated from his country
in India, you know, he was promoted to do some like speaking and all like, like presenting.
He didn't do well.
It's a bit like your mentee, right?
Like a Ile, right?
And he didn't have a good person like guiding him.
So as a result of that, something that happened in the early twenties, he had the conclusion
caught.
I don't think I'm good at speaking.
I don't think that when people are looking at me, I'm presenting a content I can do well.
It's that.
So can you imagine, yeah, functionally as a salesperson, he grew up and grew up the rank
seven promotions, one bank all the way, but that speaking thing, that story, he carried
the baggage for 20 over years.
So I just asked him in, in no uncertain terms, like, why are you allowing that, that, that
baggage of 20 plus years to carry still weighing you down until all the way until today.
Yeah.
So that's, I believe speaking is always an inside out maneuver.
Yeah.
So there's obviously the tactical, the strategic parts, like for example, how to use your voice,
your hands, your eye contact, you know, it's even like the power post theory.
Yeah.
Where you do your, your power post and then you feel like pumped up.
But for me, I feel is what's the narrative.
So for me, the narrative they were speaking was the black dog, which is I don't think
I'm great at speaking.
In fact, I think I'm terrible at speaking.
So until I work on that level, no amount of strategies would sort of shift that identity.
So for me, if you ask, ask me what's about speaking is really finding out who do you
have, who the hell do you think you are when you're speaking?
It sounds very like.
No, I understand.
I know where you're coming from this, but thanks for sharing that.
Basically what you're saying is, is that drop your baggage outside and then see a different
perspective of yourself.
Right.
And then also not to be afraid to deliver the things that you don't, don't just play it safe.
Yeah.
The playing it safe is an outcome and impact of what's happening inside.
Right.
So I have a white dog, like for example, there were times I have tons of imposter syndrome,
like bloody hell, I don't even have a day of corporate working experience, but I have
to speak to people who are Harvard, like this, that, this Ivy League and all the C level.
I would ask myself, you know, like who the hell am I?
Right.
So I had to have a white dog, which is I'm here to express, not to impress.
Yeah.
So when I have that as a white dog, I'm feeding that voice.
I tell myself, my job here is not to impress, but to deliver the things that I'm
going to do to impress anyone.
Even if I try, they wouldn't be.
And even if I don't try, you know, I kind of control that.
So instead of looking down the expression route, sorry, impression route, I'm here to
express, share my journey.
And if it impacts you and then also that story about, you know, being a person of impact
of usefulness, you're taking up the world's time.
Those are the things I put in my head.
Right.
So when you put more good things in your head, then you, you remove the things for the baggage,
you remove the baggage unconsciously.
If I'm making sense.
You know, you do, you make sense.
Hope that the people watching this can actually sit back and rewind it and just listen to
it again.
Okay.
You also describe yourself as a professional millennials speaker.
What's that?
That was actually a formal label.
So just to give a bit of context, I used to talk about like how organizations could
attract the younger people, but I think, you know, that gave way to, and that was a very
comfortable narrative because I was engaged by a global insurance company for a millennials
gig.
And they say, Hey, like, what can you teach about millennials?
Yeah.
Then I say, Hey, no millennials, what's hot social media.
And then that really gave birth to my current birth of work.
So that was an old bio.
I take responsibility for not updating.
No, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
No, no, no.
Maybe I should have asked the question, but anyway, I've asked it.
Yeah.
So now what's happening with this now?
Yeah.
It gave way.
It sort of gave birth to what I do.
Yeah.
What is?
Which is like, I train financial advisors on how to build their brands online, how to
use the power of your narrative, your story.
Ah.
So that's what I speak, teach, coach and train.
Okay.
That's clearer to me.
We've been talking about your journey as a speaker and a coach.
Now let's talk about you as an entrepreneur.
So what challenges have you encountered?
I think my season right now, it's to put my ego at home and to know that as a boss,
you're not supposed to be bossy.
Although I'm not bossy, but as a boss, your job is really to be really useful and to serve
people at where they are at, at the level where they need you to be at.
Okay.
So other than that, commercially, man, when you started the business,
what were the challenges you faced?
I started out as a one-man operator.
We call this OMO, like a self-employed.
It was okay.
It was like finding the validation.
So I think for me as a young guy, when I started to realize that, hey, I was making
a multiple of what my folks in the banks, even the big four was earning, it was okay.
I feel I'm somewhere.
But in my late, sorry, my early 30s to my mid 30s, doing all of that, then I realized
that if I continue running like that, I could actually still do what I was doing all the way
until 50s and 60s.
I think I could say I was one of the few people who's lucky enough to find a piece of work
that I love and yet get paid by that.
But then I asked myself, no, if I don't do anything else or more in different shapes,
sizes or form, would I regret that?
Let's talk about the tangibles, shall we?
When we talk about on the entrepreneurial journey, you incorporated the business eventually.
And then you were still a one-man operation.
What is it like now?
So the first one-man operation, then I hired a support team.
So I have two to three people supporting me.
Then because now I train people in terms of social media and branding, I realized there
was one big need, which is, you know, I could work with a director in the insurance business.
I could ask this bugger to do like a cap cut to edit on Canva.
Can he learn it?
Yes, he can learn, but it's every post, every caption, everything takes up way too much time.
So I built a media production company out of the Philippines.
I have six close to seven person there, a copywriter, video editor, social media manager,
project manager that wraps everything.
So think of me like, you know, like social media is exhausting business, especially for entrepreneurs.
It is, yes.
So I basically strip up everything that can be stripped away, but you know, retain what
cannot be stripped, which is video, because video is something, I mean, there's obviously
now AI and video and stuff like that, but the video in the purest form is you being you,
your unadulterated, your energy, right?
And then with all this video, we send it to cloud, the technology, and then my team in
the Philippines hand out everything of that.
Right.
Yeah.
It's my value add, you see, that's my next stage of beyond and above an OMO, a speaker
and coach, how much more use, how can I be more useful to my clients?
It's always my narrative has always been guided by that.
How can I deliver more impact?
How can I be more useful?
Okay.
Yeah.
It's kind of not on the socials or the website.
So maybe it's like a...
No, no, no.
I just wanted to understand.
Yeah.
I think people ought to know as well, because from doing what you're doing as a professional
in this field, you can, you build a business out of it.
Yeah.
Right.
And then you added more value to that business.
Okay.
And I also wanted to just find out from you, what were the challenges you encountered as
you went along in your entrepreneurial journey?
You know, I mean, let's get down to the, you know, down and dirty to this business.
Happy to.
Let's, at the end of it all, right, being an entrepreneur, you need to be able to get
engagements, you need to be able to get jobs.
So did you bounce into any blank walls?
Let's say, for example, 2020, 2021 during COVID, were you impacted?
You know, and how did you also overcome challenges as you come, as you were growing
that business for me as a young man, right?
And you, like you said, you gave a, you gave a, you gave an, you spoke at an engagement
before and you had zero.
Yep.
You know, zero coming out from that.
What do you do?
I mean, how, how was it like, you know, that, that, that, that the feeling that you, you
know, the pain that you had to go through and what did you do to overcome that?
You know, like I, what advice would you give basically?
I sometimes tell my wife that, you know, with all this pain, it feels like I've, I've died
many times in one, one lifetime.
Like a part of me just died and then yet it gave birth and rebirth.
But if you ask me, like, sorry, your guiding question was?
What were, what were the challenges you went through?
Yeah.
I think the challenges at all stages, really making sure that there was, there was demand
for you, right?
Or you had to create a kind of demand.
Okay.
So whether you're a service-based or product-based entrepreneur, if you don't, if you're not
selling, you're not making money, then you got to close shop.
So I always believe that, you know, sometimes as entrepreneurs, if you're thinking like,
oh, I shall be just building up my craft.
I know I'm going to like do more creative work.
I think it's important, but the moment where your business gets really business is when
people start to pay.
When there's money in the bank, cash in the bank, there's validation.
So the biggest challenge for me at the earlier stages was making sure that people want to
pay for me.
Right.
Then at the next stage is making sure that people want to pay for me continually.
Then at this current season is continually and up-sized, bigger ticket, bigger problems.
What advice would you give a young Ben?
Right now, for example, you meet, you meet Ben who is current, who is in the university,
right?
And on the assumption that Ben at that time has already decided I am going to be a speaker
and trainer and coach.
What advice would you give Ben?
That young person, 20, 19, 20 years old.
I think finally I'll give two advice.
I mean, the first advice would be the functional, which is, you know, just stick to one lane
because I felt that I was also having, I was a typical millennial, itchy backside syndrome.
You know, I was like wanting to speak, then I want to do the full day training, coaching,
different niche.
So pick one lane, do it freaking well, right?
Like what you say, once you become good and then good to great, and that's where you have
that commanding power, the decision-making power that gravitas.
But yet, you know, like maybe in this season of my life, I went through a retreat like
a spiritual retreat, like last weekend, I would tell the young Ben is take time to breathe,
right?
Take time to pause and take time to separate yourself.
Like, you know, is this the dream that you want or would there be something that's bigger,
bolder?
Okay.
I know it sounds contradictory, like, you know, it sets me different direction, but
that's my current space right now.
Sure.
Yeah.
With respect to that, but on the same Ben, 19, 20 year old Ben, and Ben is thinking,
I want to do this.
Where do I go?
How do I get this?
Where can I learn?
What do I need?
What would you tell him?
I think the aspect I did what I could, right?
Like for example, I started to say, Hey, back then I enrolled for the MC Academy.
No, no, no, no.
What's available.
Yeah.
At this time.
Yeah.
Right now it's today.
You met Ben.
Yeah.
It's somehow or other the parallel universes just, you know, crossed over each other.
Yeah.
And you met yourself.
Yeah.
The 19, 20 year old you, but that, that guy, Ben from the parallel universe has decided
that I'm going to do this.
What's available.
What do I need to do?
Where do I go?
Yeah.
So if you're going down the route of like strategy tactics.
Root, my friend, root is not route.
I'm sorry.
I'm being such a grammar Nazi.
It's route, man.
Root, route.
Going down the route of like a strategy.
I knew you would catch that.
I'm sorry, man.
Shit.
Route is a Singaporean thing.
Is it?
No, route is a...
Okay.
Every fucking season I'm going to talk about this stupid word.
R-O-U-T-E in America.
They say it's Americanized.
Isn't it?
It's not Americanized because American English even says root in recent times for I don't
know what fucking reason the people on film in Hollywood and then of course the whole
damn country has started to pronounce it as route.
Yeah.
Well, we are supposed to be speaking the king's English, right?
So it's root is never route.
But the Americans were saying root for a long time and then it became route and then we
watch it on TV.
We watch it in the movies.
We keep hearing that word as route and it's not.
And I don't know who came up with that shit and everyone else of these guys in the US
started calling it route.
Routing.
It's not right.
Router.
Exactly.
Maybe.
So is it called a router or router?
It's...
You see, that thing is a digital thing.
It is IT, right?
There's no connection whatsoever.
If you...
Whoever invented it, right, calls it a router, so be it.
It's called a router.
You want to...
The origin of the word describing that gadget is router.
But it doesn't mean that the word has been in existence for a long, long, long time.
Root becomes route.
It's route.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And you know why Americans cannot call it router anyway?
Because in American slang, router is something to do with plumbing.
So they don't want to call it a router.
You can collapse it as well.
Yeah, correct.
So this is what I think.
And it is what I believe is the case or the cause of this.
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
Going to the root of this.
I always bring it up.
It always happens every season.
I know it's your pet peeve.
It is my pet peeve because...
It's not the only word, man.
I mean, if I really want to be a grammar Nazi, there's a lot of shit that I can't stand.
But that's a great thing to see.
It shows that you're actively listening and you're both perceptive.
You're sharp.
But like you, man, I mean, I also teach the subject, you know?
And...
So you're a much better teacher than me.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not my point.
I get you.
What I'm saying is that, I mean, two wrongs don't make a right.
We're trained to be sensitive, right?
So when I was listening to another coach today on social media and she was saying the word
pronunciation is pronunciation.
It's pronunciation.
Exactly.
So these are the things that because, you know, we've gone through this whole training,
we've become very, at least more sensitive.
Yeah.
But you know something, man, the problem with Singaporeans per se,
well, not just them, most Asians, it's not really pronunciation.
The problem is more enunciation.
It's a lesser evil.
Actually, it's not a lesser evil because in my opinion,
it is about how the melody of your word is supposed to be.
The stresses and the emphasis.
Yes.
Your inflections and where you sustain, where you shorten the syllable and phonology,
you know.
So that is how I prefer to teach the subject, you know, in terms of verbal, of course,
you know, tonality is one I get you into key and I get you the resonance that you need.
Yeah.
Because we know that tonality is something that's very hard to teach.
Content is content.
Delivery of the content is something else.
Right?
So that's more my thing.
I mean, if we had more time, I'd ask you like, what's the function or what's the premise of
great tonality?
Is it a state?
Is it a trained muscle?
Well, let's put it this way.
It's frequency.
Frequency, the power to convince people,
taking that, just that as an example.
It's not the old, it's not exclusive just to that.
It is about frequency.
Making someone happy, happiness, joy is a higher frequency.
Okay.
Usually for things that's a little bit more, gives you a little bit more, an ominous feeling
is a lower frequency.
Right?
And then there's also vibration.
I was about to go in there.
Which is resonance.
And resonance in your tone, how does it happen?
It comes from your chest cavity.
How do you activate that?
And I found a method, which I will not share on camera because people have to pay me money.
Time to book Chris.
To get you to a particular key.
So content can be, look content is content.
But then again, delivering content by memorizing a script is an absolute cardinal sin where
I'm concerned.
There are other ways to do it.
There are other ways to do it more effectively.
Right?
Without losing yourself.
As what you said earlier, I found my voice.
I lent on what I know as an introvert that are my strengths and I use them.
Along the same vein, it's about that.
Not losing who you are and people still recognize that this is who this person is.
Correct.
Right?
Because he's delivering it the way you ought to be delivering it.
And it's not about memorizing because the moment you memorize, your elucidation is contrived.
So that's what my belief is.
Again, I'm not going to shove it down everybody's throat.
Yeah.
But I do with my students though.
Correct.
I mean, I see different schools of thought, different ways, even down to the different
students, what do they need at different points in time?
Yeah.
But you're saying going down that route of the strategy to tell the younger band.
So if the assumption, if the younger band brings it to now, this era, I feel two, three
things that will also be relevant to people who wants to build a speaking practice, which
is one, you need to learn how to garner attention.
Creating a podcast is an art of garnering attention.
Hopefully bring right people, curating right conversations.
But more so, if you are going to be a speaker, you need to, again, be someone who delivers
great value on a commercial basis.
Okay.
So how do you create an attention around you being useful?
You can say all these things, you can teach all the things, you know the problems of your
segment market and how do you, what's your take to that?
Right?
So that's one, creating and garnering attention.
I think the second thing that you need to do is converting the attention.
So conversion means, at least in my world, is making this knowledge useful and desirable
that people want to pay for it.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of speakers, I think in Singapore, our system trains us to just take papers,
right?
Exams, all the actor, again, with due respect to the trainers in Singapore, I feel we are
so enamored over like papers and certifications.
We don't even know like what, like for example, you teach communications, how do you sell
this idea for the need of great communications to maybe attack client?
Right.
You need to step out of your world into their world.
So I think conversion happens when you can speak in a language that they are speaking
to teach and say, hey, whatever you are training is desirable for them and is a need for them
such that if they don't book you, if they don't get you, the people stand to suffer.
So first getting the attention and then converting it such that, you know, there'll be real
dollars coming in into your bank account.
I feel that, you know, the speakers of today, if they are great at doing these two things,
they are almost on track to a very flourishing practice.
Okay.
So basically your advice to the younger band is also the same advice you have given
for any young person out there who's thinking about going into the speaking practice.
Correct.
So-
Should be one and the same.
Interesting what you said because that bit about, you know, what happens if you are speaking
to your demographics that might not be relevant to your, whatever content you prepared.
So you've got to adjust your content to make sure it's attractive to that particular segment
of the marketplace that you're presenting.
I think you brought up the word which is relevance and relevance is a tie into the goal of that.
Right.
So if you're just speaking for recreational, so again, the word going to premise, like being
a professional speaker means you're speaking to get paid.
You're not a hobbyist speaker.
So if you want to be a speaker, you could go to Hong Ling Park and you have like 20,
30, 50 people, you can speak to entertain.
But I think for me, given the path that I want to go, I don't want to offend people.
But if you want to speak and you got moolahs in the bank, then I hate to say this,
we are in a commercial world, right?
So we need to know the language of commerce, which is really, you know, you cannot just
any old house speak, you need to be focused, you need to be leading and forwarding in a way such
that the clients will say, yeah, I think this guy knows us, you know, like we can get a bit of him,
get a piece of him or her.
That's what I think.
So it's not just about your craft.
It's what we've always preached before, FD and me.
It's not just about your craft, but you got to take care of business.
You got to know business.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
And I think that's very hard to teach as well.
Granted, again, the whole Singaporean education system is more and more sets, more causes.
I think some causes are great, right?
But, you know, not all the trainers are like you and FD, you know, you know, business on some good
level. So sometimes we just want to take our like curriculum design, how to speak, how to do stand
up training is great.
You have the subject matter is great.
But you know, at the end of the day, who are you trying to appeal to?
Yeah.
What are their problems?
How does your knowledge becomes a solution?
If you clear all the dynamics, then you have a speaking practice, a professional speaking practice.
So it seems to me, you know, my opinion is Ben, you know, sometimes it's a great idea
for people to just straight away a little bit from the usual, from the usual causes that they take,
right, for their degrees or diploma programs.
And maybe business, business, you know, going to business, studying business is, it ought to be
something that everyone should do.
I like to think so.
Really?
So, for example, I think the way I would look at, even like as I grow, I mean, nurture my young kid
right now, right?
Like he could, maybe he likes, now he's like into art, right?
Right.
Now I'll say, Hey, like it's great to be in the passion and the craft of art, but maybe let's open
up his mind to say, why don't you try to monetize that?
Because I think monetization or creating the commercialness or commercialization of that
brings off another whole paradigm and dimension.
Yeah.
For example, you start to realize, ah, maybe you think your art is nice, but people think it sucks.
Hmm, that's a good feedback, right?
Yeah.
Then you have that internal dialogue to say, Oh, I don't think it sucks, but why does he think it
sucks?
Oh, then there's a bit of maneuverability.
And there's also another part about, Oh, how much, Oh, people say, Oh, is it $10?
Oh, I thought I want to like maybe charge $50, right?
Then there's another conversation.
So I feel a lot of us are very book smart, but the book smartness to the street smartness is where
you need to really put yourself out there.
And when money and dollars and decisions are put on the table, it forces a next level of growth
to us, right?
So how can sports be commercialized?
Again, I think commercialization sometimes gets a very evil and bad rap, right?
Being a, I met a fair share of creators say, Ben, you know, you don't know us, right?
Like creators are creators, you know, money is evil.
I feel money is also a mark, is a validation that people are willing to put aside resources from
the end to buy into your work, right?
So if we look at it from an exchange point of view, necessarily is the economics of it.
Then govern that, you know, you have a bit of weight, not just in your internal creative world,
but on the external dimension, if I'm making sense.
Wow.
You're deep, man.
Yeah, I think.
You're speaking to a guy with a diploma in BTC.
BTC is what?
Botak Se.
Botak B-C-M.
Good grief.
This guy has just dug a Pacific Ocean.
Something so deep, like a Pacific Ocean, man.
It's so fucking deep.
I think speak to Chimah, but if you really like to distill it, it's like, no, don't just be in
your world, right?
But when you start to go out there, then you start to experience different interpretations of that.
You start to take your art and then you'll be excited.
I think in all sense of it.
I'm very for business, maybe more capitalism, capitalistic, that when you put yourself out
there, right, you will grow.
It's painful.
Like for all the times I got rejected, people, clients say, hey, you're not worth this.
You suffer for your passion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You suffer for your passion, but you also suffer in that linearity that takes you in.
I feel like in Singapore, it's not a cheap place to live in.
So you could really be, you know, like indulgent in your art,
but you've got to ask yourself sustainability as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And if the bills are not being paid, if my son doesn't have money to pay the diapers
and milk powder, how long can I do this?
You see, that's the trouble, isn't it?
I mean, it's to pursue something you love so much.
Then again, you've got to think about whether or not it puts food on the table and a roof
over your head.
I know I sound like bohemian or I sound like a freaking hippie when I say this, but
that's really sad, especially when you know that something you love and you're so good at,
but it's just not going to be able to help you survive in a country that's expensive to live in.
I think my counter thought too, it doesn't have to be sad though.
Like it's just how you want to play your game.
Because again, I mean, technically some people will find that if you're doing a nine to five
and you're not happy with it, then if it pays the bills and you can do something happy from the side.
Okay, I'm sorry, my friend, but just because you're speaking in the context of the people
that you've been surrounded with, you know, in your environment, in your profession, I may be
quite presumptuous by saying what I just did, but I think so because why?
In my environment, okay, there are people out there who's great at art.
Since you use art as a subject, really great.
We're talking about realism art, handmade and drawn, and then try and sell it.
No one buys.
And then you have people who get hired to do artwork in the sites of buildings
and they're beautiful stuff and they get paid fucking peanuts because people out there go,
well, yeah, you know, I mean, you're just an artist.
I mean, thanks for this great work.
I love it.
This is how much it will pay you.
You know, and they pay you cheap.
It's a perception of stereotypes as well that come into play.
So, it is sad.
That's why I say sad because there are people, I have friends, I know whose kids are great
at art and they love it, but they know they can't survive here.
What do they do?
They find them somewhere else.
Correct.
To have, you know, to make-
But to have the choice and option is a sort of privilege in itself.
Not everyone has that option.
Precisely.
Which makes it even more sad.
Yeah, which makes it even sadder.
So, you know, I just think that, man, yeah, maybe my exposure to art is a bit too much.
But again, like where else, I always wonder like where else in the world would there be
a place where, you know, you still can be happy and still make something that's sustainable
doing what you love for the rest of your life.
Yeah.
I mean, for all the cities that have spoken in, I still see that sense of like, you know,
imperfection, that realism coming in.
Of course.
I don't know.
Of course.
I mean, the grass always seem greener elsewhere.
Of course, there will always be, there will always be it.
You know, there's no utopia here.
Yeah.
But sadly, you know, I mean, there's got to be a way to strive towards it.
That doesn't lose our soul.
Exactly.
And we should never lose our souls.
We should.
Yeah.
We should.
Our soul of life falls, right?
Yeah.
If we lose that, then what's the point?
Yeah.
And then people get stereotyped into things, you know, like for example, if you go to Australia,
New Zealand, UK, even the US, if you're in a trade, you're a tradie, you know, whether
you're a plumber, whether you're an electrician, right, you're not looked down upon.
You're not.
People don't make funny remarks to you or bargain your price down or say that it was
a simple job, you know, and you're charging me so much, you know, why am I, why do I have
to pay you transportation, blah, blah, blah, which you, you know, this is, me saying this,
you can recognize all that, don't you?
Right?
You know, most people-
It's very real.
But this doesn't happen elsewhere.
Tradies are respected because they can do the kind of stuff that you can't do.
This is where we have yet to learn something, you know, as a people.
Singapore is a hard place without heart.
That's how I like to see it.
It's a hard place to live and we could do with a lot more heart.
Yeah.
Which I think is sorely lacking at this time.
I love my country, don't get me wrong.
I love it too.
Because I love my country, that's why I say this.
I always believe that, you know, when people stop complaining, it's a bad sign.
The fact that people are complaining shows that, you know, we still love this place enough to-
To say something.
Yeah.
Rather than just, you know, be sheep.
Yep.
I can see where that was coming from.
That's something I never liked actually, to be honest.
Yeah.
So anyway, Ben, thanks so very much for your insights, man.
Thanks for being on the show.
No problem.
I hope you had fun.
I hope you enjoyed yourself.
I sure did.
My goodness, this guy is so cheap, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maybe too convoluted sometimes.
No, no, no.
Too much dialogue ahead.
I wouldn't say that.
No, I wouldn't say that.
It's just that you are a very intelligent guy.
And this is how you express yourself.
And I respect that.
There's nothing wrong with the way you express yourself.
It's just that, oh, I was hoping to have a real like, you know, a simplified conversation.
But anyway, it's good.
I welcome this.
I welcome it.
It doesn't matter to me because I get what you mean.
And I thank you for really sharing your thoughts and your journey and, you know, what you've been through.
You know, and I think a great takeaway for me is that, listen, man, you can be an introvert.
You still turn out great.
Just don't be a fool.
And you know that when you found a talent and you don't work hard at it.
Yeah, that's my takeaway, man.
I mean, you worked hard at it.
You sat down.
You reflect.
Reflecting is hard work.
It drives you up the freaking wall, doesn't it?
All the time.
I mean, my takeaway from just watching you run your thing, it's like there's always a season for you to celebrate yourself being alive.
Right?
Like I see you running this setup.
It takes time, energy, resources, and even that clarity and purity of intention, to put it very simply.
Like you need to know what you freaking want and to stick by it and to hold your guns.
And you did.
Right?
And I think that's something to be celebrated as well.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I mean, I thank God every day that, you know, when I see the studio and I come in and say, oh my goodness.
Dream come true.
And really, and I invite only special people to come in here, man.
Thank you.
And really, I'm proud of what you've done.
I'm proud of what you've become and proud of what you've made yourself.
And you know, I've been following, you know that I haven't.
I know what you've been up to.
Still a work in progress.
Like, of course.
So what's it mean?
So to end the show, can you just tell me and tell everyone?
Yeah.
What's your plans for the future?
My plans to...
In the near future?
Future.
I think nothing about, I mean, again, I think I come to a stage whereby I think business is
definitely important, but I think what's important is more the roles that I play.
I want to be a present as well as a dad who's like energetic, dynamic,
and someone who lives a larger than life kind of person.
So that, you know, when my younger boy looks up to me, he say, hey, you know, I could turn to you
whenever I have issues or challenges or fears or concerns whatsoever.
And now obviously to my wife is to also be that stronghold for her as she has been for me for the
past, you know, five, seven, close to 10 years for business.
Yeah.
It's my season right now.
This is my calling.
Great.
Good to hear that.
Good to know that, man.
And I wish you all the best with that.
Thank you.
Be a great dad and be a good husband.
Thank you so much, Ben, for being on the show.
Thank you, everyone.
This is season four and this is the first shoot for season four.
It may not be the first episode you've seen so far, but you know, it is my first shoot.
And I'm glad to be back in a hot seat in front of the cameras and in front of the microphone.
It's getting really hot right now.
Yeah, it is.
And I've had Benjamin Loh with me and do catch this guy, man.
Sometimes you can go to LinkedIn and you can also go to YouTube.
You find him there and listen to the stuff that he does, you know, and how he gets you going on
stage as a public speaker.
This has been a Chris Hansen conversation.
This is Chris Hansen.
I'll see you guys again real soon.
Bye bye.