I haven't listened to radio intentionally for the longest time.
No fucking way, really?
Yeah, because I literally have better things to do with my life,
because every single moment I have this,
and this gives me anything I want in the world.
There are more than a million podcasts, my friend.
Even on a drive, in the car.
Even on a drive.
You don't turn on the radio.
It's a waste of time.
So there's only two broadcasters in Singapore.
Because you see yourself as only a broadcaster.
And the thing about this is, okay, today, let me ask a very simple question.
Okay, if you said those things about somebody in 1978,
I would agree with you more than if you said it in 1985,
and then more in 1990, and then more in even 2000, right?
Today, none of that is true.
You just have people who are cowardly,
who are staying stuck to the teat of that business,
because that's the way that particular business works.
And I know how much money they don't pay.
So it's not worth it at all.
This is just lazy.
It's okay.
It's comfortable.
I won't say lazy.
It's comfortable.
It's just comfortable.
Because that is what it is.
It's comfortable.
I hold the entire situation,
I hold the entire group of people who produce this content,
this level of content culpable.
Because they're all...
Because this is the easier thing to do,
because what you start with is,
oh, come, let me explain to you how things work.
By the way, this is not a new speech, how things work.
It's always been like that, right?
So here, come, come.
Let me explain to you how things work.
The world today doesn't care about mass media in Singapore anyway,
because it has made itself irrelevant,
because it has been telling itself that I can't do this,
I can't do that, I can't do that, and so forth, and so I don't.
And so on a daily basis, people can get into their cars,
even the most trapped place they can be in radio,
and confidently without turning on the radio,
say, I'm not going to miss anything.
And that's the key.
If you create something where you go,
if I don't have this station on, I'm going to miss something,
that's what you need to have.
And this, again, I can say, I can accept that it's something
that is an unforeseen circumstance.
It is the unintended consequence of control from the top.
All those different things can be attributed that way.
But along the way, it's a whole bunch of people,
and I'm going to use a terrible analogy here, right?
But just imagine Nazi Germany.
Oh no, I don't know how many analogies
it came up with already on the show.
Yeah, so you see, you have Hitler on top as an idea,
you have Himmler, you have a few other people along the way,
right?
Just as it goes down the road, somebody's got to go like,
hey, I think, brother, this is not a good idea.
Not sure.
Someone's got to pump the brakes somewhere.
The thing is, you know what?
People can say the whole thing.
I was young, I was in the army, I had no choice.
There's a terrible accident, I don't know where that comes from.
But if you can always just put it down to that,
and at the same time, you dare to say to other people
that what I do for a living is creative,
then one of those things is true.
And only one of those things is true.
But if they lose their jobs, for example,
they will no longer have a platform to exercise this creativity anyway.
So he's really a rock and a hard place, don't you think so?
No, it's not.
It is.
If you don't recognize that there's nobody in your disco,
why do you come up with these things?
I was this close to saying,
then you're just Roger Kool playing a set, right?
But no.
That's a deep cut, by the way.
Oh man, oh man, that was the deepest.
Kai's on the internet, what is Roger Kool?
What is Roger Kool?
And why is Chris laughing at all at this joke?
Oh my goodness.
And then when you find out what the joke is,
you go like, why is Chris laughing at all at this joke?
Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, lots of eggs are going to be thrown at you somehow, man.
I tell you.
Have you heard an untrue word so far?
I cannot disagree with you.
I'm not here to debate or argue with you,
but I also feel that there are people out there who are just out to charity market.
You know, they want to earn a living.
Yes.
And I can tell you, probably deep down inside, they feel like,
oh, fuck, I wish I could do more.
But they just can't, I suppose.
I suppose. I am supposing.
That's what I empathize with them for.
I don't really blame them.
I would blame the people upstairs.
There's the people upstairs that go like,
no, our guys are going to do it that way.
And that's it.
And then people get the green light, they can go ahead.
And then they start entertaining the masses again.
And that's the part that I'm missing the point there,
but the entertainment part, right?
Because we are in a performance-based system,
and performance is about also quality and where you perform at, right?
So there's this whole idea, yeah, so people just cherry-muck.
I go, yeah, but if you want to cherry-muck,
you don't do it in this field, right?
You don't go like, hey, you can drive quite well, right?
Ah, you know you should earn a living.
Go and drive F1.
Yeah, go and drive F1.
No, don't drive too fast.
Just drive below the speed limit.
Make sure people get by.
No accidents.
Go.
And anyone criticize you?
Just say, I'm just earning a living, man.
I didn't drive fast.
Okay, moving along.
We've been talking for about an hour and a half.
And I still have things to ask you.
Okay, sure.
You had quite a number of partners, man.
Let's name them.
The first partnership you had was with who?
Melissa Hyatt.
That was the Morning Express, right?
Yeah.
Then Melissa left.
Yeah, she left.
I made her leave because...
No, I actually can't remember.
She went on to better things.
Okay.
Yeah, she joined corporate life, got real money.
Then after Melissa?
After Melissa, I want to say...
Well, the next partner that I did have was Vera Lim.
Okay, don't remember her.
She was also one of the original cohort on the Class 95 shows.
And then they brought in Deborah Hsu, also known as Jessica Hsu, the singer.
Jessica Hsu, yeah.
So she came in and we had a pretty good run on the air.
We sounded like a couple.
We sounded like a married couple with good vocabulary.
But we did work together and it was quite...
I think the show was interesting.
People could sense drama from the show and it was real.
Okay.
And then they brought in FD.
FD.
Yeah.
And that was again, another change that was...
I actually was very resistant to that change.
Why?
Well, because I thought, first of all, okay, we're in the radio business.
We're trying to connect with people one-on-one.
So everybody has their own philosophy.
I have my philosophy and it was about radio being this personal connection, this real thing.
And the concept that they had was to bring in a fella with a nickname
or a name that wasn't real.
Right?
So I'm going to...
Actually, listen, I'm happy to have him on the show as Mark.
But now it's all the Flying Dutchman.
And this is with the input of Burnett Lim as well.
So Burnett was very much in charge of putting the shows together.
Right.
Yeah.
And as it turned out, I mean, look, he was right about that.
I mean, the name was interesting.
You know, so Joe and the Flying Dutchman.
Yeah, it worked.
Yeah, it was... So that name worked for the marketing.
And then in terms of what the show was, Mark was fun to work with because he got it.
As in, he got what was being said.
As in... So I would say something and it was a double entend.
And Mark would just die laughing on the other side.
Right?
And it gave the audience a sense of confidence in something.
You know, for some people it's like, you know, I really can't understand his laugh or whatever it is.
But for other people, it was like, oh, okay, I've licensed because something just happened.
And I got away with that.
So that whole thing combined with that energy and all that, that really made a difference.
Yeah, I felt.
I felt that that show was really, really fun.
Yeah, I enjoyed that.
I enjoyed that.
I think there's this thing about chemistry, whether or not, and I'll speak frankly about it,
whether or not it is a well-founded, real chemistry.
And I'll say that he has that with Glenn.
It's a real chemistry there.
Or it is a well-performed show.
And I think with me, that was more the case.
We didn't hang out outside of the show.
It wasn't, first of all, isn't my style to do any of that.
And for him, he wasn't, I don't think he was very keen to do that as well.
And actually, you know, if we talk about it and I recount what happened,
where it began to go south was when we actually tried to hang out together.
So I made some kind of mistake socially, which involved him getting into the doghouse with his wife.
And it was one of those things.
And I think slowly that soured on.
But yeah, that was basically it.
And it was that point that I decided that I had had enough of what was happening at the company,
because I was impatiently patient.
It had been 10 years by then.
And I thought, okay, now I have the partner that I can make a real difference with.
This is the guy who could do that.
And at the time, and this is the thing that really kind of broke my heart at the time,
at the time, he had come from such a bad place, such a place of struggle,
that he was grateful for the scraps they were offering him.
You know, as a morning show co-host, because I knew what he was getting paid
as a co-host of this big show.
And I was saying that this is just shameful.
And I thought, you know what?
I really think I've got what I need now to do better than this.
And so that's when I went to speak to the other radio stations across the street,
because I'd begun all these conversations before.
I'd already tried to negotiate for more and the biggest share of things and all that.
It got to the point where it was evident that we were making so much money from this show,
and nothing significant was going to come our way.
In terms of compensation.
When I talked about how much money I was getting from the show, and mind you, right,
I mean, it's one of those difficult things to complain about,
because if you just look at the dollar value, you go like,
you're getting actually quite good money.
I go, yes.
But you know, my friends who are merchant bankers or private bankers or whatever,
and all that, they're getting a very much more significant share of things.
And even if you're talking about things like, so I won't go into the specifics of it,
but had I been paid just 2% of the revenue that I had helped create,
I would have stayed.
It would have been my retirement home.
I would have been able to live well, have a nice place,
not even have the money to pay up stuff in cash,
but just to be able to afford bigger loans.
But it really, really upset me that I had to create the rest of it.
And this is where business growth had happened,
because by the time I had said I had enough,
I was making seven times my radio income outside.
Now, people who are doing the math go like, wow, there must be millions.
And you're like, no, actually it was sad,
because I was really working so hard that the least productive time that I had
was radio, radio time.
It was like radio was the least paying of all my clients for the most of my time.
So when I talked about being a prostitute,
I know what I'm talking about.
I felt it at that time.
So you left, you left media corp at the time?
Was it TCS or media corp?
It had become, I can't recall, but I think it had become media corp at the time.
I left, I actually had a deal for FD to join me for more money.
And what I didn't calculate was the gratitude that he had felt to Bernard basically for four years.
Again, like I said, lifting him out of where he was.
And again, all this in retrospect, it's going to sound like they were paying him nothing.
It's not nothing, but it wasn't something.
It wasn't value for value.
It just, it got to the point where it got very clear to me.
It said they're not going to pay you because they can't.
I mean, I would say if you really can't, that's fine.
I work with clients who don't have budget.
They can't.
I want to help you.
I can work with you.
But they didn't want to.
And the proof of it was when I sat down with HR and I actually proposed a thing to them,
say, what if I just did this?
What if it was just 2% of revenue?
Does that sound like a fair number?
And the answer instantaneously was, yeah, it sounds okay.
And then they did the numbers.
So this is it.
You're going to you intellectually accept the idea that someone can get a fair share or,
whether you say it's fair or not, right?
A share of some significance.
You intellectually can agree with that.
But when push comes to shove, you go like, oh, but cannot, right?
And you're like, you don't want to.
And then the thing is, you're pulling the trigger.
You can see basically that it's not going to move any forward anyway.
So what's the point?
Yeah.
So let's talk about partnerships of yours.
You were an FD and then after that, who were you with?
So I went and then I did a show with Maggie Lim and actually with...
Still in media court.
And that must have been told.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
That was moved.
I moved on to, I moved on.
So this is again, this is a very incestuous world, right?
Everybody who used to be there is somewhere else, right?
Even across the street, right?
I was the one who swam downstream, right?
Everybody else swam upstream.
You mean towards SLF?
Towards media court.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, media court.
I mean, you know, media court, first of all, right?
Yeah.
So I went to join Power and I had this thing, this non-compete clause, right?
Which stupidly I had put into my own contract.
Okay.
Because I'm this crazy kind of person.
I like the idea of professional, I would say integrity, a professional standard to myself.
Right.
And so I stupidly put it into my contract that there should be a...
Non-compete requirement.
A non-compete time or whatever it is.
And seriously, this is the ego of a young man going into paper.
It's not well-advised.
And because I also didn't use a lawyer, I should have got a lawyer to do it for me, right?
So anyway, I was there, Power.
I joined the show with Hamish Brown and Maggie.
Right.
And Hamish, actually, as soon as he heard that I was coming over,
he just imagined that I was going to throw him out and, you know, just displace him.
And it's really not what I want to do.
Right.
Me, I'm always about doing the show, doing the best show possible.
And so it was quite...
I mean, it was okay, you know.
Different people have different, I would say, do different levels of preparation for the show.
So we had, you know, different results there.
We had some fun stuff.
And actually, that first year that I went across to Power,
they had the best financial year they ever had.
They had reasonable ratings as well.
And actually, because I was leaving, and I did leave in the end,
I actually opened the door and left, right?
The people who stayed back actually were those they considered important.
Right.
And if you're watching this, you know who you are.
They called them in for private one-on-one meetings, offered them, you know,
take the deal now, what do you call it?
Upgrades to their packages and what have you and all that.
Wow.
And it was to lock them up because I was coming for them.
They just...
I was going to come for them.
It wasn't very clear from the start.
Because I had always said I want to change the way this business is being done.
Okay.
Right.
And so I was going to say, for me, if I had it my way, I was going to do this,
I was going to do this.
So they really scurried to shore up their talent and what have you.
So there were a lot of people that I approached and talked to
who benefited from the counter deals that were offered to them.
Okay.
And there were some that I didn't care to approach but also got a good deal as well.
Counter deals from the management.
Sorry?
Counter deals.
Yeah.
It's just ways to secure talent.
So basically they made sure that they locked them down.
Yeah.
But you see, for me, I had been talking about all these things, right?
Better pay.
I talked about using advertising to support the radio show.
Because we were doing all kinds of stuff to try and promote.
And I was saying, use TV.
You guys actually had the TV stations, use all those things, whatever it is, right?
To promote the shows and be active with it and all that.
And then it's like after I left and said, oh yeah, yeah, we have to do this.
I was like...
Thanks, Rick.
Thank you very much.
I said it, then you guys did it after I left.
It's just frustrating again that it's always about...
Sorry.
No worries.
I'm always about this idea of motivations and thinking about what you need to do
from a manager's perspective to motivate the best behavior.
Is it me or my sound's going crazy?
No, I can hear you perfectly well.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
Then it's me.
No, so yeah, they're just frustrating in that.
And that was the way it was.
And I never, you know, I don't go, woe is me, whatever it is.
Because I'm always thought of myself as someone who just drives my own ship.
And I actually learned a lot of lessons from that.
And if you ask me, okay, so we're talking about partnership.
Let me just finish the partnership stories first, right?
So there was a whole moving around.
Hamish eventually left and I was doing a show with Denise Tan, the morning show.
And then someone from 913 approached me at the time, you know, and there was just a
discussion about, you know, whether I'd be interested to come over and whatever.
And he said, I didn't think you'd be interested at all.
And I go like, hey, I'm always open to see what you have to offer.
And there was an opportunity to be part of something that I thought was a viable
challenger to the stations.
Right.
And also I managed to, and I thought, okay, I could have a chance to work with somebody
who I really, really, really enjoyed working with.
Wow.
Who might that be?
So it's Petrina Kao.
Ah, okay.
So Petrina, of all the radio co-hosts I've had, as an overall package of emotional
intelligence, actual intelligence, I would say, I would say, I would say, I would say
I would rank her the one of the highest in that combination.
Okay.
In that combination.
So what was really, really interesting about doing the show with Petrina is that there
was a show where you actually heard a show with two real people on the radio.
So it was very, very personal radio.
This was Kiss 92, right?
91.3.
So it was Radio 913 at the time.
So it was launched.
And so we were working at the time with Hubert Tang, who had been hired to look after the
station, to be in charge of the station.
And I had my disagreements with Hubert about music.
Again, because, and this is always about what personal agenda is about and desires and all
have you, right?
Hubert really, really likes music.
I mean, seriously, he likes music, very, very nice breadth of music he likes.
And 913 at the time he came back was supposed to be this 80s, 90s radio station.
Retro station.
And I thought, you know, that's a good play.
It's a powerful play.
This is how you're going to get an audience because all the familiar stuff.
Do we have anything that's not stolen?
And the one thing that bugged me at the time, and again, this is just me being not the person
I should be playing as a team member, is that he wanted to do 80s and 90s music.
And I thought, fantastic.
That's going to be a good play.
And so I was like, I'm going to do it.
I'm going to do it.
So 80s and 90s music, I thought, fantastic, that's going to be great.
But he wanted to go back in time as it were and play the songs that people didn't get
to hear.
Okay.
So the B-sides, right?
Right.
So for me, being quite a commercial person, thinking about how to get an audience, right?
I was like, dude, this stuff failed the first time.
You know, it's a B-side.
We don't want to play B-sides because people don't want to.
Don't recognize it.
Yeah.
It's the whole point of it.
It's not familiar.
Yeah.
So we had a little bit of disagreement around that whole thing, but it was quickly overcome
by the invasion of one other guy and that was Jamie Maldrom.
Okay.
Yeah.
So Jamie comes from a radio family in Australia and he had circumstances that made it important
for him to get a job in the business.
Certain things were changing in the way he was earning his living as well.
And so he came in, proposed something to the SPH management.
They took him on and eventually he took over the radio station.
From Hubert.
Yeah.
And then Hubert departed.
Yeah.
And, you know, it's just one of those things where, again, I believe that radio is a business
that takes time.
You really have to start doing something and doing it for a while and being consistent
so that the audience understands what it is.
And then when they turn on your station, they go like, this is what I'm going to get, right?
And Jamie differed in that respect in the sense that he always wanted to just try something
new.
This is not working, we'll try that.
And the thing is really is like, which one of us was right or wrong, whatever it is,
I really feel that the audience had no chance to get into 91.3 as it was before it was going
to change again into something else.
So that station always seems like it's always, you know, it keeps evolving from one thing
to another.
Yeah, evolving, but not necessarily.
It became 1FM after that.
Yeah, it became that.
So big brown table, right?
I mean, for me, it's like, if you, the irony of the names actually going around until you
get to the point where, hang on, this station is now called what that old station used to
be.
I got like something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
And then what happened was Petrina was going to have a baby.
And so she withdrew from the show and they wanted to partner me up with somebody else.
Right.
And unfortunately, just me being the person that I was, I just said, nah, I don't think
I can do this show with that person because I knew how they work and how their radio minds
worked.
And I go like, we're not going to be able to make that happen.
And because they weren't able to find a solution, they got rid of me.
So they got rid of you.
Yeah.
So you didn't leave on your own.
You know, once they take the pass away, you have to leave.
But you know, I did.
And that was, that's how I departed from 91.3.
It was basically, you know, Petrina leaving and then, you know, the rest of that, you
know, the rest of that happened.
Where do you go from there, man?
I actually, I'm a bit confused about my own history as well, because I think what happened
is in the end, I went back to 98 as a part-timer.
I still did the morning show.
For me, there's no point doing any other show except the morning show.
So I think I joined them back again and I was with Shereen.
Okay.
Yeah.
The one with Shereen, Shereen and Joe, right?
Yeah.
Shereen and Joe.
Yeah.
There you go.
The Shereen and Joe show.
Yeah.
So this graphic that you've gone on right now, right?
Yeah.
Is actually what happened after we got fired.
Oh, that was just, that was after the firing.
So this is us.
We had a show that was on and I think the show was quite entertaining.
It was a bit, it was lacking in brevity, right?
Okay.
So in my mind, quite an entertaining show.
And again, this is where you have to work with bosses, right?
So the boss that I had at the time, Jenny Teo.
Oh.
Yeah.
She also is someone who works very hard and really is, you know, learns stuff.
Right?
So I would say-
I had Jenny on my show, my previous podcast.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So she canceled that one too, did she?
No, she didn't.
She came on and it was very sweet because it was over the suicide of her.
Yeah.
I knew I was taking a risk with that particular joke.
Which is why I had to step in quickly.
Yeah.
No.
So anyway, this is at the time, you know, she just was just focusing and clamping down on brevity.
And so I'm this humorous, I hope, I try to be funny along the way.
And I try to be relevant as well.
Right?
So I did this thing on the air.
Again, if you look at all good shows, there will be a string of ill-advised moments.
Okay.
So this is one of the ill-advised moments, right?
I did what you should not do, I think, on a live radio show.
And I did it because I thought it's going to be such a failure.
It'd be funny, right?
Okay.
Yeah.
So, but again, if you are not looking at it with the eyes of humor, it's a different story.
So I've tried to perform a magic trick on radio.
Okay.
Right?
It took a bit longer than it should.
I think it ended up quite funny.
We, like, Shireen and I, we're quite out front about whether something's a failure or not.
Right?
It was okay, not too bad, a bit long.
That's fine.
And then we get a call that says, come see me, you know, in the office.
Let's have a meeting next Tuesday.
Right?
Right.
So what I do with my shows is I like to think about all the stuff that happens around me,
as you've noticed with, you know, what we do as well.
Whatever's happening becomes part of the show.
And so I talk about this meeting that we're going to have, and this is in all the,
the backdrop in Singapore at the time is a lot of firings going on.
Okay.
Right?
Okay.
And I talk about this message that we've received to come and see them in the office.
And then you're probably going to get fired at that meeting.
And I said, hey, this doesn't look good.
Whatever it is.
And Sherine's playing completely what she should do.
She's playing the opposite sides and of course it's not that kind of thing.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right?
And so as the show progresses, the meeting gets postponed to Friday.
Okay.
So for those of you unfamiliar with the concept, Friday is firing day.
Right?
Friday, because that's the best day to get rid of somebody so that they have the least impact on
every, there's a whole weekend for people to disappear and what have you.
And all that.
And so, and then, and I'm thinking, okay, you know what?
This is actually a relatable way to joke about it and say, no, I think this is getting serious.
This is, this is going to be about firing us or whatever it is.
Right?
Yeah.
Now, the funny thing is, what began really as not something about firing us
actually became firing us.
As in on Friday, you were called in and we were sat down and we were fired.
And the reason we were fired was about, because we were talking about the SMS.
Oh, about the meeting for that meeting.
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
That's what you say when you have to resort to a reason to fire somebody.
Right?
So, you know, it's, it's probably a whole string of things.
It's probably about me having strong ideas, probably because it's hard to do,
but they use that as a reason.
Yeah, so that became the reason and that's, and that became the first time I ever hired
or at least engaged a lawyer.
And again, the funny thing about this is my lawyer who agreed to do the show,
do the, do the show for us, do the, do the, take the case on, take the case on, right?
Did it pro bono because his wife was outraged that that happened.
Took the case on and was doing all the work to fight the case for us.
Right. And then it was only like, we were well into it and almost settling already
that he came to realize the amount of money we weren't being paid in radio.
And he was shocked. He was, he was like, this is what we're doing all this for?
Because it was, it was an insignificant sum. It really wasn't that huge an amount of money.
And both of us were doing it kind of for, for passion as well.
Cause I like, I like radio. It's just, it's a bad habit. Right.
So yeah. And as my lawyer said then, and I think it's true even today,
as may have been demonstrated with my recent interactions in the lift nearby,
my lawyer said that I have a problem and it's that I,
I enjoy too much telling people what's wrong.
That pisses a lot of people off.
Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, and the trouble is I also go a step further
and make it difficult for them to disagree with me.
Right. Cause I back it up. It's not just, it's not just, you know, Joe, I think, you know,
that is not exclusive to just Joe Augustine, man. I have a funny feeling. He's got to do with us
guys. They walk around with that motto called protest revolt, otherwise known as protest and revolt.
You want to blame St. Patrick's school?
I'm not blaming the school. I love the school. No, but I'm, I get that too. I mean, I don't,
I don't hold back and I do throw my justifications forward, you know, and, and I know quite a lot
people can't stand me for that shit, but frankly, I don't think it's this exclusive to you. I think
it's just, if it's, if it's, I don't know, man, maybe it's culture, maybe it's how we were raised
and we all, we both come from the same establishment in terms of our education,
our school. And I don't think we're, I think most of the friends we know somewhat similar.
I don't know any of my friends who would just stand back and keep quiet.
I think you're being very kind or maybe you have a...
I face this. I mean, I face the same kind of politics sometimes too, because,
because of this, you know, yeah, it's not just you, man. I, I really think so. I think society
today just, when it comes to people questioning anyone these days, right? It seems to be more like
treated or seen or perceived to be not insolent, that's another word for it, subversive. You know?
Yeah. Like if you, if you want to question something, you are being subversive. Why are
you even talking? Why are you even asking to begin with? You know, I mean, I mean, it's so wrong.
Yeah. And that's just what things are, how things are like here. And, and it's been like this forever
and it's getting worse. I agree with you that it's, it's worse. But for the reasons you mentioned
earlier, actually, and the reason is people do believe that there are things that stop them from
doing it, right? I mean, it's, it's most of the things that keep you back or hold you back are
unreal. I will say that there is, there is truth to it. So when, when you hear me talk, I think
many people get the idea that I'm always about, about taking risks, big risks, right? I actually
think about it this way. I like to right size risk, right? Look at what you are doing, understand
what the real risk is, take whatever steps you can to mitigate the risk and then do the thing
once you've got all that in place. So I have done things on the air that has drawn the attention
of the prime minister's office, right? And again, this is, this is the way the world, in that part
the world works, right? I had been talking about, this is the, back in the days of the, of the, of
the pollution index, I think what was it called? PSI. PSI. Yeah. Okay. So PSI was being used as
this number and there was an official, you know, description that was on, on the government website,
right? The ministry, the environment website, and this is what it said about what it was. It was.
Right. And I had, I guess in the mind of this person who made the complaint about me in the office,
I had dared to go off that line and explain why it was. So the phenomenon that was happening was
basically this. You would look at the PS, you would look at the PSI, it would say 50, which
sounded okay. And then you look at the air and go like, that looks terrible. That doesn't look
like it's 50, right? So it would look like this looks much worse than the number. And every now
and then you would have also a high PSI and the air would look great. And you go like,
what's going on, right? So you questioned that. I didn't question it. I explained it. Okay. Right.
And the explanation is, I'll give you the same explanation I gave. Basically the PSI was created
by the U S E P A to describe air quality in such a way that it sounds the best. Right. And they use
six different levels of pollutants and the highest of all of those levels becomes your PSI. Okay.
Okay. So far so good. Yeah. And I said, if you were to have a glass of water and you drop just
two drops of milk into it, this becomes quite murky. And then, but in terms of pollution is
actually very low number, right? And if I had the same glass of water and then I pour in half a glass
of kerosene, it's still very clear, but your PSI is high. Right. Nothing wrong with that. It makes
sense. So that's the explanation. That's exactly it. And I had done my research and that's absolutely
correct. And I put it on the air and I got an inquiry from the PMO, you know, having to explain
to explain myself and understand this really, uh, really pissed me off because the, the very process
by which I had learned about it to share about it on the air was available to the damn fool.
Yeah. To go and search the internet and say, is this guy saying the thing that's true? Right. Yeah.
So I, I, I, that's the problem that we have here. We don't have a culture of actually finding out
for yourself, of, of, of going, oh, so there's one, there's one, there's one published version
of this. Let's find out for ourselves as well. Let's expand our knowledge, our expertise
and get better at this information. What happened in the end where this is concerned, man?
Was it all cleared up? It was, it was, it was, it was cleared up, but nobody-
But it was this inconvenience that was had to be thrown in.
The way I felt about that, which I thought again, I, again, I hold it as a, as a bit of a scar,
is this like someone points a gun at your head and says, okay, explain yourself. And once you do,
they don't even say, hey, sorry for the inconvenience. Yeah. You know, they just
re-hosted it. It was just like, it was, it was, that was, uh, unfortunately something that happened.
Yeah. But yeah, it, it, it's not about subversion. I actually have a, a great appetite, uh, to try
and discover what the truth is. Right. But I do like to be very skeptical as, as I'm doing it as
well. So I'm, I'm the worst friend you can have because you can tell me, you come to me and say,
Hey, I just saw this. Right. And I'm going to ask you about all the different things and the, the,
this and that I'm going to, I'm a terrible friend in that way, but I'm going to get down to it and
maybe give you seven explanations of what you saw. Hey, that's why I'm not talking to you about UFOs.
Get the fuck out of here. Talk to Joe about that shit. No freaking way, man.
I dare you to leave this alone. I have two stories of UFOs. Oh, really? But you don't want to hear.
Okay. Nevermind. Another show, another show for another time for that. Shine a light, baby.
No, no, no, no. No, fuck that. You forest. Oh, okay. Um, let's let me just move down the line.
You've inspired me by the way today for what I'm going to write my book to do what on what,
because you have talked with me now for, we've been going on for what? Close to two hours now.
More than that, man. It's been more than that. Okay. Um, Kai is going to have a headache
and there's so much that hasn't been talked about. Yeah. A lot. I just realized a ton, man. That's
why I just realized that too. If I'm going to keep going on partner by partner, I'm just going to
move on down the line. Okay. Sure. I did not have sex with him. I get the impression. Yeah. The
best partner you worked with, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. Katrina Kao. Uh, yes. Okay. Yeah.
How were you? Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Um, the best show. Yeah.
Uh, was, and still is with Mike Kasem actually. The Mike and Joe experiment. Well, the Mike and
Joe experiment is actually, uh, yeah, the, the, the, the show that we, we, we, we, we, we, we,
we hobbled together or put together, hobbled together, uh, when Glenn Ong left. Okay. So I
was doing the morning show with Glenn on class 95. The morning express of Glenn. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
And that, uh, that part of my life, uh, doing the morning show with Glenn was, was, was the
most sellout part of my life. Really? Seriously. What do you mean by sellout? Um, I was, I, I said
yes to something that I swore I wouldn't. And what's that? Uh, do a show with Glenn. And what's wrong
with Glenn? I didn't have the, I just don't feel for Glenn. You mean the same chemistry? Yeah. As,
as a radio person or what we do and all that, the risks we take, what we bring to do,
we're very different on our values. Glenn's kind of risky. I've known Glenn all my life. Um,
yes and no. I mean, Glenn, Glenn doesn't really take, um,
um, I'll, I'll let you listen to the other show. If you've just listened to their shows
now and listen to what they say and where they push and what they try to push, I will say that
that speaks for itself. I don't think you need to, I don't need to substantiate, um, that Glenn isn't
taking chances. And you know, I, I, I, Glenn is very strategic, very good in that sense in terms
of, in terms of emotional intelligence and, uh, you're talking about corporate, you know, corporate
know-how and schmoozing and stuff like that. Glenn is one of the smoothest, um, I've known in that
area. Um, yeah, but I, I had, I did not really, you know, uh, jump at the idea of working with
Glenn. What I did actually jumped to was the opportunity to be back on the morning show
on class 95. And that was, unfortunately it was one of those things that I did because I was,
I was greedy for it. Okay. Yeah. So after Glenn left, you started off the new show with Mike Kasem.
Yeah. So they were going to, they were going to put another show together. And then I was doing
this, this show temporarily. It was, it was actually the show that was temporarily in place
because Glenn was deciding whether he wanted to stay or not. So he was still officially, uh,
with, uh, with media core. Uh, but he hadn't pulled the trigger on, on leaving yet. So there's
this kind of limbo thing. And so while the limbo was on, uh, Mike and I did the show together.
And it just, it was, it was a good show. It had a nice heart to it. And he's just, he, Mike
and, and Mike understood comedy. He understands comedy, you know, real, real. And then again,
and then again, because you're such a admirer of his, of his late dad, no, he's not, he's not, his dad, um,
who didn't have had a part to play. I'm not saying Mike's bad. Don't get me the wrong way. Yeah. Yeah.
No, I, I'm, I, I, again, like I said, I'm a bad friend because I'm, I'm well prepared to say nice
and I'm saved to criticize, um, even friends. And I think as my lawyer said, you know, I'm,
I'm too well prepared to do it. And that's what you'll say about me, man. Okay. Nevermind. Well,
it doesn't matter if you have a second hour. No. So, so with, with Mike, uh, it was, it was a show
where, uh, it was a temporary show and then they wanted to move me away while they brought in,
uh, the muttons to do the morning show on class 95. Um, and then for, for, for, for Mike, uh, he
was going to go where he was going. They were going to put me with somebody else again, uh,
and moving me to another station. Um, and I, and I told the, the, the person in charge then that,
no, keep, keep me with Mike. Cause there's a, there's a, there's something going on here. There's a,
there is a good show here. The show has heart. Um, and so we did and it went on and, and, and
really some of the, some of the funniest things that have ever happened on radio, truly funny
things, not, not things where I say something that's supposed to be funny and my partner goes,
uh, without mentioning names. Uh, you already did earlier on. Nevermind.
Kai, you must hide this from the audience. No, I mean, so, so truly funny stuff, uh, was happening
on that show. So, so yes, the best radio show, uh, was with Mike, uh, the most enjoyable show. Uh,
I would say because of the, because of the true friendship that we have, uh, is with Patrina Kao.
And I will, I will, I will stop there and leave you to work out what was the worst show that I ever
did. Cause I haven't mentioned it. How am I going to ever leave that one out now that you've brought
it up? Because I haven't mentioned it. Because you haven't mentioned it. Yeah, I haven't, I have not
mentioned it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So there I ask. You can ask, but I won't say, cause I've told you,
I won't say cause I'm masterful at this. One more last question because we've been talking forever.
Yeah. Um, if you had the opportunity to go back on air again, would you? No. Really? Yeah. Any
station come to you? Say Joe, come back. Would you do it? Okay. Uh, my terms and conditions would make
it in, um, unlikely that they would do it. Okay. First of all, um, okay. I will, I will take back
the no, uh, and put a giant asterisk on it. Right. So the giant asterisk actually comes with a number
of things. One is money. Two is the plan. Right. Cause someone has to come to me with a plan
that is more than just saying, I'm going to put you on and that's going to be the answer. Right.
So like you were talking to, uh, Cyril about MCing and being, you know, you, you get hired as
the show and I go like, no, I'm not going to do that. I would never take on that, that role
because I would need a plan. I would need a plan and I would need a plan that includes things like,
oh, we're not going to do traffic. We're not going to do news. We're going to figure different ways
of doing this so that it's going to be a great radio show. And it will never do that. Yeah. Well,
the thing is you can say never, but then again, if you think about the big thing that we're looking
at right now is okay, uh, it's a Herculean task to try to raise radio to a level where it is
something that is relevant. Yeah. Important, significant. I mean, I haven't listened to radio
intentionally for the longest time. No way. Really? Yeah. Because I literally have better things to do
with my life because every single moment I have this and this gives me anything I want in the world.
There are more than a million podcasts. Even on a drive in the car, you don't turn on a radio.
It's a waste of time for me to put on radio because it'll irritate me. It'll irritate me.
It'll irritate me because somebody will say something. Okay. Let me, let me, let me, let me
give you a solid example of what's being done. Right? So good old days of radio, this would be
fine. Right. But, uh, the way, the way this, uh, the way this is done nowadays is I hear this, uh,
a younger DJ will come up and do something, but she's been told probably by an older DJ to do,
right? There's, um, um, you won't believe the newest product that, uh, Molly Ringwald has
introduced. I'll tell you all about that in 15 minutes. Right. Which is not all radio is like,
fine, because I'm going to interest you in something and you have no way, there's a hook
to come back for 15 minutes. You have no way of knowing how to get hold of that information
because I've hidden it from you. Yeah. But now I just need to go fucking Google it. Because,
because there's no art in the cell. So they don't understand, they don't know how to do the magic.
Right. And they're still out there doing the old magic tricks. So you, you're, you're basically
someone now on radio doing all those things is the same as someone coming onto your stage while
you're in MC angle, like ladies and gentlemen, this is a hat. It's empty and I'm going to reach
into the hat and you will not believe what is going to come out of that. Oh, it's a rabbit.
Oh, it's a rabbit. But your, your audience is so far ahead of you. They don't stick around for that.
It's insulting to them. Yeah. You know, so that's, that's the, that's the thing. It's so radio,
radio, as it is today, I'm going to say, I'm going to call it as dead because objectively at any
moment in time, maybe with a few exceptions of a few moments and a few shows, it isn't
worth the trouble. It isn't worth the time. And when, when, when that is it. So, so for me,
what really told me that radio had really screwed up, right. Was that when I met this old guy,
yeah. And he says, um, oh, you know, I used to listen to your, to your, to your radio stations
and all that. And they go like, Oh, uh, what happened? I said, no, I just can, I'm in Spotify
now. Yeah. So radio of all the failures that I think the radio should be ashamed of in Singapore
is 90.5 losing its older audience. Yeah. If there's one audience you can hang on to the aunties,
uncles, and whatever it is easily. It's that audience. You play the right music.
You get some stuff. I mean, look, this is absolutely true by the way. You can't hear the Beatles on
Singapore radio. You can. They were playing it for two weeks, uh, two weeks ago. Now they've got
this, you know, they got which station is this media core. I think it was gold. There was a
week, sorry, not two weeks. There was a week they were playing. They now dedicate a week to artists.
So they did one for the Beatles and they were playing Beatles every day. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So
they did, they did. I understand corrected then. Yeah. So I was listening to that the whole week.
A few weeks ago, right? Yeah. Okay. So I'll re-say again. There's no,
this is the point I'm saying like, if, if, if you were to talk about the most significant music
ever and you're old and you're serving an older audience, if you understood you're serving an
older audience, you know, you would play the music of their life, right? Not all the time,
but I would hear some Sinatra. I would have to hear the Beatles. I would have to hear the Bee Gees.
And you know what? It's been happening, man. It's been happening. I've got to tell you,
last couple of months, I've been, that's what I've been hearing. Okay. Well, I'm including Sinatra.
I think I'm going to have to buy a radio now, but you get, you get what I'm saying that when,
when you come to the point where you notice that, Hey, they're playing the Beatles. Something's
gone wrong already. Right? Something's gone wrong. Something's gone wrong because, because how do you
notice that they weren't playing the Beatles? How do you notice that they weren't playing the Bee
Gees? How do you notice it's like, you go like, Hey, you know what? This is just where I'm at
today. Please know what they're serving at McDonald's now food.
For a while. Yeah. But the food is back, man. The food is good. It's good. And I go like,
and I go like, the damage has been done because I am not going to waste my time. I'm not,
if I like the Beatles, I've got a Beatles playlist, Jimi Hendrix, you're not going to hear that on
radio anyway. I create a playlist or download the playlist. So radio, radio has changed.
Fundamentally in terms of what it, what it does, the fundamental need is still the same, but it's
not being served. I think by most of the media in Singapore, maybe because of the incentives that
are not in place, people are not being entertained. It's not about entertainment. It's about the
filling of time now. And I think it's a shame. It's, oh, well, you know, I still, I still, I still
listen to radio. Maybe it's nostalgia for me, you know, and it's maybe it's because it's an
unrequited thing that I've, you know, I wanted to be on radio. Never did go. Oh, I'm so sorry to,
to drag your girlfriend through the mud like that. It's not my girlfriend either because I,
like I said, you know, I'm not here to disagree with you deliberately. I mean,
at the end of the day, there are, if you've, if you really look at my socials, I have this thing,
I always write. So sometimes I've stopped for a while because that particular person is no longer
on air. And I have this thing called Chris's Mike says one, two, three. Okay. And, and this guy is
a particular news reader. And my goodness, the mispronunciation. Wait, Chris, I got to check.
Yeah. Did he die as well? Cause if the item is a death, this becomes unfunny, you know.
No, he did not. No. Okay. All right. All right. But I think it's still working that I think so,
but he's not in there anymore. Okay. And you know, he used to drive me up the freaking
proverbial wall because he, he's so, he's so, he's so, he's so, he's so, he's so, he's so, he's so,
He just drove me up the wall because he, he's so off and putting on pulling on an accent that's
just completely off, you know, and, and I couldn't stand it. So I came up with this thing. So he's
not as if, you know, radio's my girlfriend is, it's just the very fact that look, you know, it,
but you feel, you, you feel that radio one back in his early days was like boring.
the sponsored shows, people who came on.
Guys like Victor Kuhl, Roger Kuhl even, you know?
And the late Bernard Silosa, you know?
And the Listing Go On, Uncle Brian, of course, right?
So these guys were great.
As radio DJs, they were great.
They really carried the show, their respective shows.
These are the people I listened to and I grew up with, right?
And I wouldn't say it was completely bad.
It's just that it's a nostalgic thing for me, you know?
I've always listened to radio.
I still do listen to radio.
And sometimes I really feel that, yeah, you know,
more could be done.
Maybe it could be more entertaining
so that it can remain relevant, significant.
Yeah?
Yeah, I agree, I do.
And I also sympathize or emphasize the guys
who are sitting behind the mic.
You know, I think maybe they're kind of handcuffed, really.
You know, things that they could say,
things they can do, could do, and too afraid to do it
because they don't want to get into shits, you know?
Into the shits.
I mean, yeah, I mean, come on.
Not everyone's gonna be like you, man.
Let's go for it.
I don't give a flying fuck what's gonna happen to me.
I can get fired from every damn station.
You know what I mean?
Some people just don't have that, man.
I mean, each to their own.
But of course, the larger institution,
which is radio as an institution, just doesn't grow.
Yeah.
Yeah, sadly.
Sadly, you know?
I mean, I think more can be done.
Yeah, more could be done.
As a listener, as a consumer, I want more.
Yeah.
See, what you described just now
about all the circumstances and we have to be,
you know, we think about people and their circumstance,
what have you, right?
Yeah.
All perfectly legitimate reasons to give people a chance
if they're in the volunteer service.
That's it, seriously.
If what you say at the end of it all,
during the Christmas party, right?
You go around, people say, what do you do?
Oh, Joe.
Yeah, I...
No, Joe, it's just...
I'm a part-timer on the local radio station.
I don't know, man.
They don't pay me money for it.
Maybe I've gone a little soft as I'm aging.
But I do tend to try to put myself in their shoes
and say, you know, it's not gonna be easy for people.
You know?
No, I like to be in this business
where I help people see what is real in front of them
rather than the illusion
that they've created for themselves, right?
So a lot of people live in an illusion.
They believe that this is the case.
Without a choice, ah, without a choice, you know?
No, that's the thing.
That's exactly where I'm getting it.
There is a choice.
You're just not willing to make it.
So someone has to say...
They live in an illusion
because they don't have much of a choice.
Yeah, so this is the thing.
If they can say at the end of the day, okay,
I did the best radio show I could,
Yeah.
Good.
But what I think has to be said most times,
I did the best radio show I could
given the circumstances and the rules
and the kind of oversight that I have,
the kind of boss I have
and the things that I'm worried about,
my loans and the kind of things.
I haven't made enough plans.
My own financial plans are not in place
so that I can't have the security to do things
and be free to do the various things I wanna do.
There's a difference.
You can't hold the rest of us hostage
because you didn't plan for it, right?
You know the captain of the Titanic, right?
In that moment when it's happening,
he can't just say,
I did the best I could.
Yep.
You know?
Yeah, the whole, it's unfortunate,
but that's the way ice works.
So I tend to be a little less forgiving.
I'm equally unforgiving of myself.
Like I said, if I were to live my life differently
and make different choices,
I would be in a different place.
I might still even be on Class 95,
doing the morning show
and who knows how much I would hate myself.
I might have made those different choices.
Who knows?
I do have empathy and sympathy for the people there,
but I don't like to leave people
with a false sense of where they are.
You know, like if somebody has a choice,
they should know they have a choice
rather than believe they have no choice
and become enslaved.
Right.
So that's how it happens.
You know, like when,
in some repressed societies,
you know, when a slave tries to escape,
it's not the people who are in charge of them
that stop them from escaping.
It's the other slaves.
Because they don't want to get slaughtered
because of this guy.
Whatever, because they think they're doing-
There's gonna be repercussions.
Well, even if there are no repercussions,
the kindest friend amongst you will think,
you know what, this is what you should be doing,
but you're not gonna be able to do it.
This is what you should be doing
because this is the best for you.
And that's the kind of behavior,
but you don't step out once in a while to say,
okay, what's going on?
Do I understand what's happening?
And then you go back to the point where you go like,
and now I'm qualified to give some advice.
Too many people with not enough experience
are giving advice.
Yeah.
Again, that one's not just limited and exclusive to radio.
It's across the board.
Yes.
It's why I should be on China Lite, come on.
Hey, come on.
I'm bringing it on for the UFO thing.
I only got two stories for UFO story.
I can't match the-
I was looking out the window and then I saw-
I just saw one there.
I'll put Bong here as well.
Yeah.
Okay, we've been talking for about two and a half hours.
We're really gonna have a headache.
What am I gonna do with two and a half hours?
Because people nowadays,
they're suffering from a lot of attention deficit disorders.
They don't like to sit down for longer than half an hour.
I think if you put out a five hour podcast,
people would go like, what the hell is this?
Yeah.
And then if you do the chapters correctly,
I'm speaking directly now to Kai, by the way.
If you put in all the chapters in such a way
that people have to figure out what it means, right?
Kai is getting a free education here.
People are gonna be curious about this.
People will be curious about that along the way.
People wonder why it is people can listen to long form stuff.
It's because along the way, people are being interesting.
And I really hope that I've been interesting.
Oh, interesting, yeah.
I mean, I'm finally listening to all these
from your perspective.
I know that we're gonna have a lot of mutual friends
who are probably gonna, you know.
But then again, it's what you've been through.
This is a story coming out from you, you know.
And each to his own, man.
I just wanna listen to what your perspective,
from your perspective.
Instead of just, you know, hearsay
or just reading about it elsewhere, you know.
And Joe, or Joe Augustine's in the studio, I find out.
That's about it.
Yeah.
And it's been interesting, man.
Appreciate it, really.
No, it's been fun.
Thank you very much for this.
For whatever it is, man.
You're still on this tribute show.
And it's still our tribute to you.
Okay, okay.
Yeah, really.
Thank you so much, man.
Without you, Traffic Watch wouldn't be what it is, too.
I can't see how this belongs on the music show.
Although, why not?
Why not?
Because look, man, come on.
Music and radio is still something here, you know.
I mean, in the end.
Even if it was in the 90s or the 2000s,
people were still listening to radio.
And people remember who you are.
So I have you on the show.
This is a tribute to you.
I love your effort to give me a nice, comfortable platform
of which to dive and say goodbye.
What the f?
But I really wanna encourage you to really bite down hard
on this because you have a platform.
Now you have some 4,500, as we speak,
I think people who-
More than that.
Oh, okay.
It's more than that.
You have that, right?
And if you're thinking about where this is gonna go
to the next level or the highest level,
it's only when they get into it and go like,
you know what, this is the stuff which I can't get, right?
And I do worry that you're trying to be too nice a guy
because you really, like just now right now, right?
When you were late,
you were making the bed for the next guest already.
As you were telling me about,
oh, these people have this and that.
And it's really good and it's really professional.
And it's really boring.
Because you know, as I'm talking about this,
that you want to just say hallelujah, yes.
But you know that you have to balance this and that.
And I've been there.
I'm not balancing.
Oh, okay.
I'm not balancing because I really want,
the idea is to have my guests to talk.
You've been talking.
So I let you talk.
And then as much as you've been,
and you're the one coming out of all,
everything you've just said
for the past two and a half hours, right?
Great.
These are the things I want to have.
These are the things I want to hear.
Yeah.
So what else is there for me to do?
You sound like-
I'm not here to choke you at.
No, you're not.
And-
My role, my role, Joe, has always been this.
I get my guests comfortable.
Yeah.
And they talk.
Right.
And they talk about things that some,
many have said they don't say on other platforms.
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
So you know, I don't,
I don't need to be hard in order for me to get answers.
You went on because you're just Joe and Joe goes on
and we know Joe goes on and Joe will go on.
And I let you go.
Yeah.
Well, I'll tell you what,
it's a real pitibi, we're recording, right?
I mean, so-
I appreciate the feedback though.
The hardness was full like 15 minutes ago,
but Kai had no hard to tell you.
It's like, you know-
Kai's probably going,
fuck, what are we going to do with this shit now?
It's going to be, it's like almost three hours of footage.
Yeah.
Yeah, I know.
Anyway, I don't know.
I think people can handle it.
Well, yeah, I mean, I'll figure it out somehow.
Kai's falling asleep, but-
Anyway, Joe, thanks very much, man.
Have a great year ahead, man.
Have a great year.
Thank you for your time here.
You've been watching the Chris Hansen conversation.
I've had Joe Augustine here with me.
It has been a long, long conversation.
Season three seemed to be one of those.
Now, Gherman was with me for almost this long as well.
Really?
Oh yeah.
I feel that's a challenge to go on some more.
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy.
Did I tell you about the UFO?
Yeah, I knew, yeah.
And well, if you want to pause and play again,
play back later, go ahead, yeah?
Whatever it is, it's been a nice conversation in your face,
but listen to it anyway.
I'll see you for the next one.
Until next time, take care everyone.
Bye bye.
Mm.