And then the results come out and I am third. I'm behind this guy.
And that name I cannot remember.
But I think he might be a member of parliament. I'm not sure.
Huh? I'm just kidding again. Joke. Joke.
Please put it.
No, come on.
Kai, can you please put the word joke?
It could be real because you know.
Up until the point lah.
No, I mean, come on.
Daryl David's in parliament, isn't he?
Yeah, but he's not funny and he's no sheep.
Ooh.
Well, welcome to this episode.
This is still sort of a new season.
Season three. Welcome back to the Chris Hansen conversation.
And I have with me in the studio for this particular series that we call tribute to SG local musos or icons.
And it cannot just be limited to musos alone.
It has also got to be extended to good people who brought music to the fore here in Singapore through maybe even radio, not just on stage.
And we haven't seen this guest of mine in my studio right now.
We haven't seen him on air or heard him on air for a very, very long time.
I have with me on the show, Joe Augustine.
First of all, I want to say thank you for inviting me to this series.
But I'm a bit upset that I'm not on the Shine a Light series.
This whole thing about inspirational and all.
I look at all the other stuff and people who make active choices to go like, I love my job and all this.
You go to the retro bin.
I actually thought of I love my job, but I'm thinking to myself, really?
Does he? Does he love his job?
Right.
Don't take the risk, Chris. Don't take the risk.
But honestly, honestly, God, man, I mean, way back when they're making you look so old.
Yeah.
Way back when.
This is making you look old.
Yeah, that's true, too.
But it's fine. We've known each other since school.
Okay, so this is the thing.
So we're not that far different from each other.
But when radio was becoming... Radio was not that hot way back when.
It got a little hotter after Zoo 101.6.
And then Media Corp, back then TCS, started to panic a little bit.
I think that's the opinion of many people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Singapore Broadcasting Corporation at the time.
Yeah.
Media... TCS and RCS came actually significantly later.
I was hired by Singapore Broadcasting Corporation.
You with SBC?
Yeah.
Right, okay.
So am I right to say that when Zoo came on in Batam,
and they really gave our broadcaster a run for the money, right?
Yeah.
And then they started Class 95.
They started to revamp 90.5.
Then they started 98.7, perfect 10.
Okay. So I'll do the very quick history of radio.
He doesn't have to be quick. Take your time.
Okay. In the beginning, radio sucked.
I have to jam brakes there because a lot of people will be smacking us.
You made me.
But no, back in the day, seriously, if you listen to Marconi...
I don't want to be collateral damage here.
If you listen to Marconi, he had the worst morning show.
The guy who invented radio.
This is called a joke, by the way, Chris.
Marconi invented the radio.
I'm going to give you the birdie.
It was a really bad show.
Seriously, right?
Okay. So Singapore Radio, the history of Singapore Radio is one that's linked completely to BBC.
It's due with the British in the first place.
Okay.
Right? So Singapore Broadcasting Corporation is set up to basically provide the masses
with some form of entertainment.
Okay.
And the four radio stations at the time, at the beginning of it, were one, two, three,
four, very creative.
One, two, three, four.
Very creative, one, two, three, four.
And if you look at the BBC...
Radio one, radio two, radio three, radio four.
Even still today, one, two, three, four.
And then they expanded to five, which was Symphony, which is the classical radio station.
Right.
But radio one was the bastion of English programming in Singapore at the time.
Right.
So to give you an idea how bad radio was at the time, and this is with all due respect,
which is very little...
Go there.
When they were the only game in town, radio listenership in Singapore was still 40%.
Okay.
So if you understand that from a statistical point of view, it's like even when you have
everything, you don't have much.
Okay.
And I don't put it down to anything else except that they were boring.
They were boring simply because they were trying to serve everybody.
So if you looked at a radio one, and I can only speak about radio one because I can't
read Tamil very well.
Right.
Okay.
Mandarin even worse.
Right.
So you look at the schedule of radio one back in the day, it used to be a show that tried to do
the morning news and then the financial reports, and then they'll talk about cooking,
and then they'll talk about...
It went all over the place.
Right.
And most of us actually who enjoyed radio at all in Singapore terms, if we're being honest,
we would listen only on the weekends when there was a sponsored show on.
Right.
Okay.
You remember the Fanta show, I suppose?
Fanta show, my goodness.
Victor Koo.
Yeah, Victor Koo.
Yeah, Victor Koo, of course.
The SAF show.
I mean, all these shows were the shows that weren't...
Forces 55.
Yeah, they weren't the regular show.
They were the show that was not the regular show.
Right.
And actually that was what made it kind of interesting.
Okay.
But anyway, so again, underserving the audience in general.
And then what happened was, ZOO came along.
So ZOO 101.6.
Right.
Or as it was said on the air, ZOO 101.6.
Yeah, brilliant, man.
Well, they were just...
It was just light in the middle of darkness.
I thought Joe Monkey was you.
A lot of people thought and still do.
So Joe Monkey left a trail, unfortunately, because he was the closest thing to a celebrity
in that field.
Right.
Because there was none really before that.
He used to come to town and from reputation apparently,
take advantage of his celebrity and with women and all that.
So I was always a bit careful about the idea of being...
Did he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Did he even come here?
I don't remember.
I mean, the whole point of ZOO 101.6 was to make money in Singapore.
Yeah, okay.
I know that.
But they come here.
I don't recall...
Yeah, they always used to do that.
They had all the promotions and all that.
So I won a radio contest.
It was the Good Morning Vietnam show.
There was a Good Morning Vietnam promo that was being done,
I think it was at the warehouse, the warehouse disco.
Right.
And Joe Monkey was one of the judges.
Yeah, and I did my thing and came in third, I think.
Okay. Who came in first, man?
I'm curious now.
I know the...
Okay, we'll play charades here and see whether you arrive at the answer.
Right.
Oh, boy.
He's a very well-known Indian DJ from the...
And he speaks really well as well.
And he used to do a lot of shows, clubs and stuff and all that.
And I think he was actually rather successful in his own right.
Had a bit of a limp.
See how I've masterfully drawn Chris now into this,
because now both of us don't remember who this is.
Oh, you don't remember who it is.
Bloody hell.
But if you say the name, I'll remember.
Something Kumar, is it?
Not Kumar.
No, not Kumar.
Kumar. His surname is Kumar.
George. George Koshi.
Oh, George Koshi.
Yeah.
Yeah. So George...
Hey, George. George Koshi.
Shouting out to you, man.
Yes.
George is selling booze now.
George won, and I wasn't unhappy about that.
Right.
But I was beaten by a guy who had a talking sheep.
That was upsetting.
So basically he had this small little doll,
and part of his routine was the talking sheep.
And I went like, this is bad.
And then the results come out, and I am third.
I'm behind this guy.
And that name I cannot remember.
But I think he might be a member of parliament.
I'm not sure.
Huh? I'm just kidding again.
Joke. Joke. Please put it...
No, come on.
Kai, can you please put the word joke?
It could be real because...
How about you tell the point?
No, I mean, come on.
Daryl David's in parliament, isn't he?
Yeah, but he's not funny, and he's no sheep.
Okay.
Me and Daryl have had our moments.
So I think it's really possible
that that guy with the sheep could have been Daryl David.
Yeah. Yeah.
Apart from the Chinese part.
But...
But hey, look, come on.
Daryl speaks fluent Mandarin, man.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean...
Could have been him, but was it him?
We've established it's a Chinese fella who had a sheep.
Now, if you're suggesting that Daryl was wearing makeup...
Certainly I guess Daryl does look Chinese.
Oh my.
I think this is where we might do a Vade commercial.
It's a good idea.
Seems like we've entered the area.
Good idea, man. Good idea.
Yeah.
Okay, Joe has just reminded me,
Chris, don't forget to talk about these things.
Yes.
I've got with us probably the fluffiest,
crispiest prawn vades in Singapore.
And we'd like to thank Gordon's Vade.
Thank you also, Vijay, for always...
I'm coming around in the rain, man.
Oh yeah?
You got here, it was raining, right?
He must have been fast.
Fast, because he'd sped so fast, there was smoke.
Oh boy.
Thank you very much Gordon's Vade for these vades.
And thank you once again, Vijay.
You know what Joe just said.
Listen, it's evidently crispy because I watched the episode with Benny on.
Vienneseito?
Yeah.
And he was chewing and crunching and everything and all that.
So I actually said to myself,
I must not make that mistake of eating the vades on camera
because it's just going to mess up the whole sound all the way through.
It doesn't matter, man.
It's a podcast.
Go right ahead.
I think the whole point...
Listen to the thing about me and radio.
How much time did I spend trying to adjust the microphone
before we started and all that?
Now you want to go...
Ah, it's cool.
Just let it be.
No, it's cool.
Because I appreciate people like you.
Because from what I know today,
basically nine and a half out of 10 jocks on air
don't even bother to EQ.
That's what I've been told.
Well, let's ask the question whether they know what EQ is in the first place.
Okay, so I was in the middle of history of Singapore Radio, right?
So because you mentioned something about Class 95 coming up.
So actually it was Zoo 101.6 set up as a business.
And what they had come up with was an initial idea to try to
get hold of advertising dollars that maybe weren't available in Singapore,
weren't being served.
Great business idea.
This is the Ramako Batam Company, right?
They launched that station and then the reply came in the form of 98.7.
Right.
So that was the first...
Perfect 10.
Yeah, Perfect 10, 987.
Yeah.
So that came up.
Then after a while more, then they launched Coast.
Who?
Coast 100.
You know, it was the Mellow Station.
So you had your...
You had Joe Monkey, Julie Peacock, all this.
But you're talking about Batam.
They launched Coast.
Yeah, so they launched Coast.
So by the way, all these are...
So the Zoo is a name that's just ripped right out of the copy everybody names book, right?
Zoo is a station in New York at the time.
Number one in the world if you want to think about it.
Really?
Still, Zoo is still the premium radio station right up there with BBC Radio 1.
A lot of these, right?
Okay.
And then Coast.
Coast actually is a ripoff of a California radio station.
Okay, so they were ripping off everyone.
Yeah, as we were.
Perfect 10?
Yeah, Perfect 10.
Was that a ripoff as well?
Okay, so Perfect 10, seriously, is such a bad name no one came up with it before.
Okay, you want to be cool, right?
I mean, you start off with cool.
Hey guys, let's be cool.
Come up with some really cool names, okay?
I don't like Zoom.
It's too much like Zoo.
I don't like Power.
Power?
No, no one's going to call a station Power.
What do you have there?
Yeah, perfect.
Perfect, no, I think not enough.
Someone remembered Bo Derek.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they put all Perfect 10.
Yeah, so Perfect 10.
So let's come up with something for branding that is too long to put on a sticker.
Yeah, so that's the kind of world that radio kind of had to be born into.
And then so, Coast came up and Coast was actually beating everybody.
Right.
Because it's nice, nice mellow music.
It seemed to a lot of people, including myself, that Perfect 10, 987 FM, way, way back when,
right?
It was so hastily set up.
Was it like that?
It was a panic reaction.
It was, right?
It was a situation where radio had gone from 40% ratings with no competition to everybody
talking about the other station that's coming across the water with a poor signal.
I mean, it wasn't a great signal.
It was good enough.
I mean, you live, okay, so if you live in the East, you're blessed because you're out there,
because the Batam is line of sight.
So it's not a great signal coming in.
So this is what you were being beaten by.
And then this content is king, right?
So they were playing, and it's the simplest thing, just playing music and talking a lot
less in between.
No news updates.
Oh, actually, sorry, I lie.
They had the worst news updates.
Because every, if you, and those of you who remember it will remember that the only kind
of problem in their programming is because part of broadcasting comes with licenses that include
content requirements.
So they had to carry news and they carried Indonesian
news, centralized news.
And again, it wasn't even a nice quality one.
It was one of those like, this is who 101.6 and now the news.
Just knew you had to live with that for a while before the next song came out.
But listeners really didn't really think of much of it.
Because it was the only little offending thing.
Yeah.
It was a minor little bump in the show.
That was about it.
Not like a half hour cooking show.
We enjoyed the voices.
We enjoyed the little monikers they gave each DJ.
And we enjoyed the music selection.
You know what I mean?
It was entertaining.
It sounded modern.
It sounded fresh.
It's just contrast.
It just sounded fresh.
It's like, if you are brought up in an environment where the food is always cold,
somebody serves you a hot meal.
It's like, oh my God, this is so good.
So I mean, if you're seriously brought out now,
you're clouded by nostalgia.
Zoo was a sucky station.
But it came up against something that was much suckier.
That was literally how easy it was to win.
Okay. In your opinion, so when Perfect 10 started,
and 87 FM, when that started, do you think that they were really,
really that good compared to 101.6?
Did they succeed in getting, you know,
the audience or listenership back to local radio?
They succeeded in so far as they stemmed the tide,
and people did follow because there was something, again, refreshing about it.
So again, now this is about culture.
A local radio station has a little bit of an advantage as far as culture is concerned.
But what they made the mistake of with 987, I feel,
was they still took a little bit of that gold programming style.
They put DJs on and they put them in charge of their own music.
So it wasn't formatted radio.
It wasn't fully formatted radio.
So it was supposed to be pop radio,
but you had everybody on the air with their own personal agenda.
You knew the flavors of DJs when they came on.
Right? So like to me, the name that comes to mind most is An-Yo.
And do you remember what Anne was famous for?
No, I don't.
Anne's a rocker chick, man.
She really loves rock.
So you'd get those songs.
Suresh, Suresh Menden, departed radio brother,
he liked to smoke, so he would play long songs.
Again, in the category of jokes here.
But people did things really to make things convenient for themselves.
I'm actually very amazed you have Kai here who doesn't laugh at the funny things.
Well, is it?
It's like...
Discipline in the studio, man.
I think I'm killing here.
I've delivered blow after blow.
It's just discipline in the studio.
Comedy gold 90.5.
You're invited to laugh out loud if you want to, man.
You should have a microphone on with you, bro.
Yeah.
Yeah, so that's the truth of it.
When stuff is that bad, something that's a little bit good, okay.
But I kind of like that kind of concept where it's a little bit rugged.
You have people like Suresh Menden who play longer songs.
And maybe because he always goes on long smoke breaks.
You have An-Yo, rocker chick.
This is completely unfounded, by the way.
Yeah, okay.
The family of Suresh, you can put the phone down with the lawyer.
Yeah. I mean, longer playing songs.
Then you have An-Yo who's a rocker chick playing rock music.
I mean, to me, there's a lot of flavor.
Yes, of course.
As compared to what's happening today, don't you think?
Okay, so here's the thing about understanding the game you're playing.
Right?
So you can say that, oh, these are the different flavors and what have you and all that.
But the business you're in is radio.
It's to make it useful for me as someone who's trying to put something on the background.
I want to know what I want.
So yes, you can try to be in the food business and do some really nice stuff.
And you kind of like have sometimes I do this, sometimes I do that, sometimes I do that.
Right?
But how many restaurants do you go to where you go,
I don't know what the guy is going to serve.
I know it's going to be edible.
I mean, yeah, you can think of it as kind of attractive as a kind of an idea.
And it works for, I would say, the very, very sure-footed individual.
But most of us are not.
Most of us are social beings.
Right?
Okay.
So if I say to you, burger, you don't instantly go like, oh, yes, our 17th floor.
Mandarin Hotel.
And not now, 20 years ago.
I remember Jonathan.
Jonathan was such a good chef.
He knew how to make a burger.
You know Jonathan, right?
No.
Okay.
Joke again.
I know.
That's why I'm ignoring it.
I'm thinking past other things.
We're getting past ignoring now already.
Yeah, I have to because I know it's smoking thing.
Then after that, you know, the Jonathan now, my goodness.
Okay.
So basically what happened after 987, man?
I mean, Class 95 came about.
I remember that.
So 987 was actually a pretty good reply to Zoom.
Zoom, yeah.
Zoom started Kost.
Yeah.
And then Kost, so Kost was soft, easygoing music, and they were killing it.
Really killing it.
So it's Zoom and 987 both struggling because Kost, this big monster came along.
Right.
Really playing nice, mellow music of the heart, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
So they went looking for, again, a reply.
To try and reply.
And nobody in the radio business in Singapore had actually done format radio.
Okay.
So what happened was, you know, a bit like what you experienced when you listen to Zoom,
you didn't hear format radio.
You just went, oh, this is nice.
This is kind of nice, whatever it is, right?
And so 987 was the reply based on, you know, when you see someone doing something
and you try to imitate them and whatever.
So 987 was actually the imitation of what they saw.
Right.
Very few people at the time used to do things like try to listen to radio stations
from other parts of the world.
Right.
It just wasn't a thing, right?
So they then thought, okay, you know, strategically, what should we do?
They actually went to the US to look for somebody to set up a radio station for them.
Wow.
Yeah.
And this is the tragedy and the beauty of the story.
I owe my radio career to the misfortunes that they had, right?
So you imagine a country's broadcasting corporation doing a search, boldly going
into the US to look for the finest talent that they can pull into their midst.
To consult.
Not to consult, but to lead this radio station because it was important stuff, right?
I mean, you know, 987, you know, worked for a while.
Then they just got whacked by a zoo 101, by a coast.
Right.
So, you know, they went in search of this person.
And so when it came to the interviews and all the people who showed up for it, right?
One man came.
Who?
Just one man.
That's all.
That was the extent of it.
Any name that we would know?
So as it happens, this one man, Steve Sundberg.
Steve Sundberg.
So you don't remember the name Steve Sundberg, but Steve Sundberg was someone who was doing,
I would say, some part-time work for a radio station in Minnesota at the time.
But he understood radio.
And more importantly, he understood format radio and he understood the software
that goes behind radio.
So there's a software called Selector.
And Selector, right now, if you listen to almost any radio station in the world that
plays music, there is a more than 50% chance, in fact, it used to be much higher,
that the music scheduling was done with a software called Selector.
So out of Selector, actually, an entire industry of radio stations actually have radio software.
So it's like putting them in queue, right?
That software.
Putting music in queue, then your talk sets in queue and all that.
Is it?
No, Selector is different from the stuff that plays it back.
Selector is the part of choosing the right songs to put where and whatever it is, right?
So back in the old days, in format radio, early days format radio,
they would have a stack of cards.
So when you talk about top 40 radio, right?
Literally used to be, in the most aggressive early version of top 40 radio,
they literally had 40 songs that they would play in rotation.
That was the earliest, rawest form.
And then it kind of developed over time.
And so they come out with a mix.
So they have 20%, that's the current, then the recurrent are the ones that are quite well known,
but not quite dead yet.
So we bring them back every now and then.
Current would be played maybe eight times a day.
And then some classics or whatever.
So there's a kind of a mix going on.
And the management of that whole thing by software,
to translate basically the artistry of someone who's programming a radio station
and scale it out over a 24 hour period, over seven days.
You had to use some kind of software to do that.
So the software would be a way for you to code.
The song goes with this song.
And if you were even that inclined, I visited a music director,
a program director in LA.
Actually, I think he was the guy behind the original coast.
And he understood things like the keys of songs and the textures and all that.
So that's why it was such a beautiful experience
to listen to that kind of thing, because it was artistically put together.
M. So it's almost the same as what you might do in clubs, for example, for club DJing.
Where you have BPMs matching the next BPM, the next song.
S. Yeah.
M. Something like that.
So it doesn't go far off from the last being played.
S. Well, with radio, what you're looking for is slightly different than that.
So in radio, you don't want the beat to be the same.
M. Right.
S. You want it to move, right?
But you don't want it to jar.
M. Right.
S. So you're going to go from 120 and drop it down to 100,
and maybe get to the 80 before you bring it back to 105.
M. Right.
S. A few different things.
You want variety.
You're going to have male, female groups.
You're going to have a few different things that are moving around
so that the brain stays interested.
M. I remember, I remember, now that you talk about this selector thing, the software, right?
S. Yeah.
M. For radio, when radio was starting to get format, to be formatted.
S. Yeah.
M. I was, I did visit Rediffusion.
S. Ah.
M. Remember Rediffusion?
S. Long, long, long time ago.
S. Yes.
M. I visited Rediffusion in Clemonzo, and I can't remember who that girl was.
There was this DJ that was in that studio.
S. Yeah.
M. And there was this program called So You Want to Be a DJ.
S. Ah.
M. So I think I was probably 16 or 17, I can't remember, but in my teens.
S. Yeah.
M. And I got into that.
And I had to come up with a list of songs that I want played and blah, blah, blah.
And you know what they were doing, man?
S. Yeah.
M. They were playing, they were playing the source of music coming from vinyls
on Mark IIs, Techniques Mark IIs, turntables, right?
And they've got cartridges besides cassettes.
S. Yes.
M. They had those big ones in the old days.
There was, it was a fight between cassettes and cartridges.
S. Yeah.
M. So they were playing music from cartridges as well.
It was all fed in by the DJ.
S. Yeah.
M. And they all played on vinyl right there and then.
S. Yeah.
M. So this thing you're telling me is like, wow, never seen it before.
S. No, no.
So Selecta is the software that prints out a list.
M. Right.
S. That tells you which one to play.
M. Right.
But you play the music.
S. So depending on the advancement at the time.
So early days of Selecta was a printed list.
There was a playlist.
It was a piece of paper.
And you would know from the schedule, you could say, oh, I need to play this one from a card.
This one will be from a CD.
This one's from a record or whatever it is.
So Selecta and Playback are two different things.
So Playback is a thing that came back later when they finally were able to afford digital Playback.
Because the space required to store music at the time was formidable.
S. Yeah.
M. Right. So digital Playback.
Now it's no big deal.
Back in the day when you talk about-
S. You mean storage space.
M. It's the same storage space in terms of digital space.
It's bloody expensive.
S. Okay.
M. So in the day, I mean, in my day-
S. Digital space.
Digital spaces back then cost a lot of money basically.
M. Yeah. I mean, I had these drives that were this big, sitting about as broad as a table.
And that was a two gigabyte drive.
S. Holy crap.
M. And that was my Ferrari.
S. Oh boy.
M. By the way, I had four of them.
But if you have four of these and you have eight gigabytes, you have nothing these days.
But in the day, you think about a radio station.
First of all, it's got to be able to store it.
Secondly, it's got to be able to be reliable so it can Playback as and when.
So yeah, no, it was all manual for quite a while.
So even though we had Selecta, we were playing off CDs as well.
Because you know, class, you must have class, right?
So sorry.
We will drag across the bottom of the barrel several times here.
How about a new series, Dead Jokes?
M. Oh, Steve Sundberg, right?
Is that his name again?
Okay. So he came to Singapore.
He became the consultant.
He knew Formant Radio.
S. Yeah.
M. And then what happened?
S. Okay.
So he came in here to set up this radio station.
And in the meantime, what happened was I had been hired for these very-
M. This is where Joe Augustine came into the picture.
S. Yeah.
So when I arrived in Singapore, there was still no class 95, right?
I arrived in Singapore as a cohort of new Sinis.
M. Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Let me jam the brakes for a bit.
S. Yes.
M. You just said you arrived in Singapore.
You and I were in school together in Singapore.
What the fuck do you mean?
S. I'm a foreign student.
So I lived everywhere else except here.
So Singapore was the- I came into study, right?
M. Where was Joe Augustine from originally?
S. Where was Joe Augustine from?
This is the complicated story.
M. Just which country did you come from?
S. I was born in Singapore.
M. Uh-huh.
S. I was born in Singapore to Malaysian parents during a time when the government was very-
in fact now I think they're still pretty uptight about giving out citizenships, right?
M. Okay.
S. So I was born in Singapore but a Malaysian.
Parents found work where they did first of all in Penang, then in Brunei,
and then I came to study in Singapore.
And then the whole family migrated to Australia.
M. Okay.
S. And then I looked for a job in radio.
M. In Australia?
S. In Australia as well.
M. Right.
S. Yeah so I sent out- I sent out 20- I had 27 tapes, that's all I could afford.
Seriously up to that. I was as- I was as skin thin as that. I had 27 demos after I finished
my radio course. I sent them out.
M. What radio course man?
S. The Melbourne Radio School.
M. So there is a radio school there?
S. There is a school for almost anything anywhere in the world. People will take your money.
M. Oh wow.
S. Yeah.
M. Here in Singapore?
S. No but Melbourne Radio School is good. Seriously. I mean-
M. I'm pretty sure.
S. Yeah.
M. I mean-
S. I mean look at the kind of people they produce.
M. Oh my gosh.
S. Yeah no. I mean people- the people that go out actually knew more about radio.
So they knew a lot of things. I came in- so when I came in to Singapore, I was somebody
who was really full of all kinds of vigor because I had big ideas.
M. Okay.
S. Right? I had- and I'd been hired actually to be part of this 987 Perfect 10 thing.
M. The cohort with Together with Bernard Lim and Aloysius and all?
S. Yeah.
M. Yeah. Those guys.
S. Yeah but just let me stop you there for a bit.
M. Yeah.
S. You came- you tried sending out your CV, your resume over- all over Australia, right?
In Melbourne. You couldn't get a spot.
M. Yeah. I was going to say I had 25 rejections.
S. Why?
M. Because I didn't sound like what they were looking for.
S. Basically you-
M. I probably wasn't good.
M. You know? I mean that's something that you have to really accept as well.
S. I mean I think I had a good sound to my voice but there wasn't much more,
I would say was really terribly, terribly special about it.
S. Really?
M. Yeah. I'm freely say so.
S. Do you really think that- so do you think that Australian radio is far better than ours?
M. In terms of the DJs, the radio DJs.
S. It's not a question of better. I mean it's just about whether you're right for it.
M. Or whether it suits the audiences there.
S. I mean if you're- first of all if you're in Australia at the time you'd have to be speaking
a bit more like this really. So that wasn't me. I had a more American accent.
Doesn't explain anything but I have a different accent. I had this nice sound which a lot
of people recognize as being a very professional radio sound but it just wasn't right for Australia.
And yet I was hired here.
M. But you went to this Melbourne radio school thing.
So which means Joe electively went for that course and has always been in your system that you wanted
to be on radio. Was it an ambition for a long time?
S. For you.
M. I'd say it was something amongst the things that I played around with. I like the idea of
playing around with different things to do for a living and for fun. I really when I was in school
I used to prioritize having fun first. So if I'm going to do this I'm going to have fun.
So radio was one of them. I also thought about photography. I thought about film.
All those different things. Anything that had to do with creative work I very much enjoyed.
And radio was something that you know people always work on.
The way people arrive at who they are when they're adults is you start by being a fake when you're a kid.
So for me I used to listen to radio and I began to think I can do this.
I can do the things. I can make some of the approximate sounds and so I would make some of those sounds.
And I think the show that I most enjoyed only because it was so regular and as the only source
of it was the American Top 40 with Casey Keason. So that became the sound in my head.
And so that began. You start off by imitating. So if you are a good imitator then you are just
someone who's trying to be Casey Keason. The great thing about being a bad imitator
is that now you're original. So that's the advice I give most people.
Interesting concept. Yeah interesting concept.
It's all great artists actually start by imitating.
You start by imitating, mirroring someone else. You're right.
I can recognize that. I can appreciate that actually a lot.
Okay so coming back to the history again. So 987, you nearly ended up with that cohort.
And you didn't. Then what happened? Okay so I get hired to be on 987 and
this is almost a week before the launch of... So I'm hired to put a 97 and then
SBC in the day was very good about training people as well. So they put you in a course
to learn to speak better. So there was a lot of breathing exercises during which I fell asleep.
But I was in a cohort which included a whole bunch of, and I'll say this
simply because it was a fact, of women. It was all women that they had hired to be
on this new station. Lucky you.
Now the thing is you have to recognize it kind of a sexist thing. I mean if you really think about
this, you go like oh this is going to be one of those... The way they described the station to
the rest of Singapore was MOR, middle of the road. So they hired all women on that crew.
And amongst them there was this one girl who, I should say woman, who was there
and she was from Malaysia and she had a qualification that was from a polytechnic in the UK.
So anybody who's understanding the whole education system understands that when you say polytechnic
in the UK, you're actually saying university. So it's by name, but it is a degree.
But because of the way things were being done here, she wasn't being recognized as a degree holder.
So she came in and it came to the fore. So she left, not happily I guess.
But then what happened was there's a gap on this new station that has to launch.
And so the undeployed 987 DJ gets deployed. So I only had a couple of meetings with the 987 folks
and then I was transferred to this new station, which everybody thought was a death sentence.
Really? Yeah because you know when the girls arrived, all the other women arrived and they
sat down at the same meeting. And then they were told, because you wonder what is it,
it's a huge secret project, and then they were told we're going to be launching a new
MOR station and you're going to be on it. They were audible groans.
They were what? A room of groaning women.
As long as it wasn't moaning.
It was really uncool and whatever it is. And for me, I really thought it was the best thing in the world.
Why? Because I had been exposed enough to what Steve was doing and the training and what he was
trying to do to recognize that this guy understood what he was doing. And without mentioning any names,
I had a leader on my station who didn't. Who had some ideas. And this is a whole problem
with leadership and people being afraid of territory and stuff like that. Because you know,
like when I first arrived, there was big news on the ground because if you listen to the story as
someone's being hired onto the radio station, so 987, everybody's local, right? And suddenly out of
the blue, there's this guy from Australia. He's an import. And then when he arrives in Singapore,
where does he stay? He gets put up in a hotel because basically there's no way to live.
Mind you, this is the Asia hotel. So if you wonder where Hotel 88 got the ideas, it's basically that.
81, you mean? 88 is the next one. But yeah, so that whole idea that this person was going to come in
there and eat their lunch, you know, would have been threatening. I mean, from a management
perspective, right? So I mean, I got stupid things coming in. Like for instance, I don't think anybody
else gets the boss of the radio station, meeting them at the airport to pick them up. I got that.
You got that. Yeah. And then I thought, okay, interesting. So a lot of green-eyed monsters
started to grow. I don't know if it was green-eyed monsters or just, it's just this sense that was
prevalent. I don't think people were very, very secure. I think people always,
we're in this business where people are naturally insecure. It's part of what makes you good, I think,
right? Because you're insecure, so you work harder, you do all those things, right? So that,
I wouldn't say green-eyed monsters, but this uncertainty and usually the lack of transparency,
I would say. You know, again, given the leadership. And people start making assumptions.
Yeah. So the leadership is there. I would guess that someone who is a little bit cagey and all
that, it's not going to tell everybody, you know, hey, listen, we got a new guy, whatever it is,
make him feel capable, whatever it is. Because the feeling I think was that I potentially had come
for this person's job. Right. So all that, of course, furthest thing from the truth, right?
So because I came over and this is where we are. Actually, I just realized something.
I feel superior to you because I have A levels.
I heard you talking about having just O levels, right? So I have A levels. And if you try and
enter any kind of organization, like the then Singapore Broadcasting Corporation,
you are entering at a certain pay grade, right? So I was coming in, I mean, look, for all the-
And they were giving you-
Expect treatment and whatever it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And only A levels.
Yeah. So if I give you, if I gave you my numbers, if I put it the right way,
it sounds very impressive. I was getting 60% of my pay in allowances on top of my basic pay.
Wow.
Right? Until you hear what the shit pay was. So it was really, it was that kind of a situation. So I,
and it's a good thing I didn't know all these things, but had I continued and stayed in the
system and followed the pay scales and pay grades and everything else, I would never have been
able to get out of it. I would never get to the point where I would out earn someone who is
far less talented. I mean, I'll be just, you can look left and right on radio stations and you can
tell who the weak ones are, right?
Yeah. Okay. Fair enough.
So I mean, if you're on a football team and there's one person who really,
really has trouble connecting with the ball, and you're not able to get out of it,
you're not able to connect with the ball, you want to ask me who's the worst? I can point very
easily without much, you know, it's objectively quantifiable. And then you add the insult and go
like, yes, and this person has been here longer, so they're getting paid more than you.
Right.
And next round of, you know.
You know, there'll be people who'll be watching this episode.
Yeah.
You know, colleagues of yours, ex-colleagues of yours, friends of mine too.
Yes.
What do you think the opinion would be after listening to what you've just said?
I think if they're honest, they're going to go like, why do you want to talk about the stuff
that we're over already? Right? They'll say it's all in the past. You know, why talk about those
things?
I asked.
Yeah. So, no, I mean, the thing is, what do I think they will think? They will hear truth.
They will hear a perspective that maybe they weren't aware of as well, because
we can't be mind readers. So they weren't mind readers.
I fancied myself as a mind reader, which I can talk about later, but
that's the kind of situation I think that they're faced with. And
culture is a very, very significant thing, because I entered a culture and I realized it quite soon
that it was a culture not of excellence, but let's do it really good enough.
Okay.
And there's a difference, right? Because, you know, good enough is not a bad thing.
I don't mind living in a building that's good enough, really, really good enough, but is it
excellent, right? And I just knew after, and this is upon a lot of reflection to realize that
it was just not set up that way.
Okay.
And this is criticism, I think broadly of a lot of Singapore, really, right? It's like,
you really don't set things up for people to excel and go over and beyond, because you don't
provide incentives for that.
Okay.
Right? And if you are the, in Singapore, if you are the manager of somebody who is going
over and beyond and pushing the boundaries and what have you, right?
Is it because of resistance to change?
Is it because of resistance to change? It's a resistance to change, but motivated.
So, you know, you can be just stubborn and that's resistant to change, but you can actually
quantify why change is bad for you. And then you go, okay, so I'm motivated now not to change.
Or is it anxiety to change? Or anxiety for changes to really occur? Because, you know,
in order to do better, you've got to take risks.
You only change if there's a good reason to, right? I don't expect you to say, I'm going to
start doing weights because I feel it's time for a change. You always make changes for what is
better and there's an incentive on the other side. But if there are no incentives and the price is
too high to pay, even if you get to the other side, or let's say, like, you're like, congratulations.
Okay, this is a very famous one for people in business, especially ones that don't understand
the sales process. And they say like, okay, you're a good salesman. Congratulations. Your targets have
improved for next year. And they go like, improved? What do you mean? Oh, it's higher targets.
Higher targets. Yeah. Oh, okay. So all the stuff I'm doing right now, all the performance that I'm
enjoying right now, all the fruits of my labor this year have only gone towards making my next
year worse. Worse, yeah. Okay. So if you think about that from a perspective of incentives,
what's that salesman going to do towards the end of his year when he's getting close to his target?
He might become manipulative, do things that shouldn't be done to get to his targets.
He's going to do something very simple. End of the year, as he's getting close to his targets,
and let's say he's hit his target, and let's say he's selling ad space or whatever it is,
he's going to call all his great clients and he's not going to be incentivized to sell them more
air time in this year because his target's already been met. So he's going to be incentivized to sell
them next year. Well, yeah. I mean, he will pile them up for next year so that he knows, because
if the chances are the bosses are going to increase the targets again, so might still have some
buffer for next year. Yeah, but if you think about all this, right? So this is what we call quantifiable.
But then again, most people get, honestly, I mean, I understand sales very, very well.
Most people actually end up going against ethics, you know, and they start manipulating for sales.
That is the worst kind of outcome. But in this particular respect, this topic of ours is
concerned, and I can't help but agree with you. I think innovation across the board, not just radio,
I mean across the board, has really, someone has tapped on the brakes somehow, man. I mean, it seems
like there's no space for people to go out there and go, let's go, let's try this one out. Let's
try that one out. Let's go for something new. Oh, I disagree with you that there's no space.
Really? There's plenty of space, but there's no motivation. Yeah, basically. Right? Basically.
So I mean, I can exercise. No, basically, okay, okay, okay. Me using the term space, okay? I mean,
it's just for ease of conversation. Yeah. This is what being my wife is like.
Ah, yeah, poor girl. Essentially, there is no motivation. So therefore, I know there's space,
the scope, but the scope is not given to me to grow, to move, to push the bar, to up the ante.
There is nothing there, you know, to provide it to me, to do it. I know it's there. I can see it,
but there is a fricking wall. Yeah. So I think it's prevalent almost everywhere across society,
across the board, you know. But let's get back to radio. You got into Class 95, a whole bevy of
women in the show. Were you the only guy, man? Steve Sundberg was the other guy. I don't really
remember this guy at all. So the first voice you ever heard on Class 95, it was launched on
the auspicious 1st of April with Steve Sundberg. So Steve Sundberg opened the show. The very first
song we played was The Carpenters yesterday once more. Okay. Oh wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15 minutes
before that, we were playing sounds of the waves, you know, lapping on the beach. I think it was
Steve's way of telling Zoo, we're coming for you. Okay, telling Coast, we're coming for you. But
yeah, that was it basically. So that first song, and then on that first day, it was Steve opening
the show a whole day. And then I was the guy who was going to close the show, close the day. Yeah.
Right. Okay. Back in the day when we were... So that was the birth of Class 95.
Yeah. And you were there at its very inception. Yeah. Very first day. Very first day. Wow. Wow.
So what happened after that? You got into, you had, you helmed, well basically,
one half of helming the morning express, right? Yeah. So that's the kind of blank space that gets
erased. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about that blank space then. No, for a long time, Steve, Steve for
as long as he could live being in Singapore, you know, and again, dealing with the rest of
management the way he had to, he was doing the morning show. So he was the program director.
Right. He was doing the music all day, selecting all the music. And he did the morning show and
that was his thing. And I was doing the evening show. So that's the evening drive. Drive time.
Yeah. So that was, that was, you know, I guess the two sort of business ends of the radio station.
This is before it was really regarded as that, right? Okay. So when Steve left, or was leaving,
he actually left a succession plan as well. And in typical management style, they tore it up. They
didn't, they didn't follow his plan. And his plan admittedly was probably flawed, right? Because he
had planned for me to take over as the program director. Okay. Remember now I'm only 22,
I think 23, 24 years old. So I'm just, I'm a real young upstart and he's handing the reins to me
in his mind, which they disagreed with. Yeah. So, but the thing that remained was this, at the time,
nobody wanted to do morning shows. Why? Because it was a terrible shift.
We've got six AM in the morning and all that.
Oh yeah. With six AM, six AM in the morning. That's one thing. And then, okay, let's say when
you're starting out, you don't have your own transport or what have you, you get the, you get
the company transport, right? Which comes conveniently at 3.15 in the morning.
No way. Depending on where you are living. Are you exaggerating?
No, no, it's one small, this is the one small van. Yeah. Yeah. That is going around the island,
collecting people. Right. So if you're lucky, you live down Thompson road and you can get picked up
at five something before the van gets to the building, right? But if you're not, you're going
to be picked up really early. And then, you know, this is again, we're talking about the age before
the ubiquitous mobile phones and what have you. And also it's a lot of stuff. Like you had to
worry about missing the transport. Yeah. And then, you know, you missed the bus. You can't claim for
the morning because you had the bus arranged and all different, different things like that. But
so the morning show is really the Kena show. That means every time I met someone from nine eight seven
doing the morning show, they were really like, Oh man, Kena the morning show. You know, it was
really the worst thing ever. Okay. And, and you know, so, so that, that, that's the contrast
between what they wanted and what I wanted. What I wanted to do was a show that was different.
Right. And so that's, that's why I was, I was going to disagree with you then. Maybe it's good that I
didn't do it then. Um, the opportunity to do something good, to make it bigger, to, to, to,
to try stuff out and all that. Right. There was never anything that said you can't do it. Never.
Okay. It was just a lack of desire. It's a lack of desire and motivation because-
On whose part? On-
The individual's part or the managed part of the management?
Okay. So several levels of it. And it kind of builds up that way. Right. So when you do something
wrong, first of all, you get hauled up by whoever hauls you up and then you have to answer some stuff.
Right. So the, the, the, over time, the idea of a good anything on broadcasting at the time,
was no complaints. Right. We had this call, we had this book called the, um, I can't remember what
it was called, it was, it was, it was a book that was, that was, that was filled out by the receptionist
of, of the company. Yeah. And every now and then you get a, someone would say something or whatever
it is. And that was one level of, uh, oh, you did something wrong, let's address it. And then of
course there was the authority who would call you in for different things. So the, the thing about
that is if you toe the line and if you stay completely within the, the, the boundaries,
you will do nothing wrong. Therefore you will cause no additional meetings and therefore
everybody's happy. So layer after layer, layer of people who are just quite happy because they
managed to find this job, which is really a shake leg job, right? The whole day you're pretending
to work so that ultimately you get on the air, you play your CDs and then you act very tired and go
home. Well, yeah. So, so there inherently there is, there are flaws. No, there's no incentives.
There's no incentives. So yeah. Correct. So nothing ever move forward. Nothing moves forward.
Yeah. But the blame that you, uh, give or the, or the, the, what you gave just now was the room to
say that, Oh, I can't do it. And really it was never a case of, I can't do it. It's, I don't want
to do it. Well, that's why I said there was a wall. There's no wall. There is a wall. The wall would
come from, say, for example, the authorities, you know, thin skin people will call in to complain,
management will call you in for meetings. You're going to get fined. I didn't stop me. That's the
point I'm saying that the very thing you're saying, right? It didn't stop Joe. Yeah. Did it stop
everyone else or most others? People who don't buy running shoes cannot complain. They cannot run.
Seriously. It's like you, you, we're going to the shine a light section of our program.
You think about it seriously. It's all about people are not going to try. I mean, look,
exactly because of that people don't want to try. Joe was the one probably deemed to be the
Rick Halstreet one to move ahead. Cause dude, how many stations were you on, man?
I could have been on one station from my entire life. But. If I had decided not to set the whole
thing on fire. Exactly. You know, you said set on fire. I mean, a lot of people probably would have
said, yeah, Joe set it all on fire. Yeah. Okay. But do you see it that way? I mean, really, do you
really see it that way? Or was it because you wanted to move things differently and then
people didn't see that then? Was it that? I mean, I'm asking the question here. I mean,
leaving, leaving, leaving why I left class. Is that, is that kind of where this is going?
There was power. There was, there was SPH radio. You were there too, right? Yeah. There you go.
You know, I mean, every conceivable station you want, man, you were what fired?
Except one time you left on your own. No, I left, I left several times and I was also then,
it's only towards the end of my career where I would, I would say fired is an appropriate word
to describe it. I had very different ideas about what could be done. And I was quite impatient
about things, right? So when I say quite impatient, usually when people say impatient, they say like,
he couldn't wait. He couldn't wait five years. Okay. So I waited for a long time, biding my time
from the time I started radio with really big ambitions, learning about the industry,
knowing about what the world was doing and learning broadly like that. And then doing a
show which progressively got better and better and better. I think that for a while I would say I was
on that trajectory. I kept pushing. Which show was this? The class 95. So the stories I used to be on,
I wasn't, I was actually on class for a while. And then there was a change in management and
some ideas and all that. And they actually decided to move me out to gold. I actually became a radio
one person. Yeah, 90.5. Yeah. And I did the evening show on 1FM and I was doing my stuff for 1FM.
And while that was happening, they had consultants that they had paid a lot of money to come in and
talk about stuff and whatever. And I was again ambitious from the evening show saying, listen,
I think I can do a better morning show on gold. And so I did a whole pitch of what the show was
going to be about. And then the consultants look at that and said, well, this is actually a show,
this is a morning show that we're looking for on class. So that's how I got back onto class
after I had been moved off to gold. And then I started doing the morning show. And it was just,
it was a show that was already sort of in progress, but by that time they had moved in
somebody to do the morning show with Melissa Hyak at the time. So that was called the Morning
Express. And that was the name of the early name and it still I think is, but it's where that began.
So I came back, did the show and I began to do the different things that I added onto it,
slowly adding in things like the wake up call, which these days just couldn't work. But,
and I think that the really big innovation that I did, which screwed up,
I would say the industry for a while was telling the truth.
Okay. And it was telling the truth about something that affected everybody as you were driving to
work in the morning. Traffic watch. Yeah, it was traffic. So now it's called traffic watch.
But in its earliest form, I was just doing the things that nobody else was doing.
One, answering the phone. The phone rings, pick up the phone. Because your audience,
your client is trying to contact you and they're going to call you about various things. And yes,
they're going to be irritating a lot of times, but every now and then they're going to say,
Hey, there's an accident on the CTE. Right? So that was part of the process is listening,
answering the phones. And then again, looking at rules and say, okay, yes, I understand your rules.
So how can I get around the rules? And we have the system where there would be a telex that
went out seriously, a telex that went out and it was copied many, many times over. So depending on
which one you got, it was either very clear or less, but carbon copied. And that would be how
we would get the news about traffic. So to give you an idea what that was like in the day,
a traffic situation happens, let's say, maybe someone reports it. Okay. Okay. That call goes
into traffic, the police traffic unit. Traffic police sends or contacts somebody who might be
in the area to go out there, drive all the way there and verifies that that situation has actually
happened. And then radio back to traffic. And then after that they will send out this thing outside.
So you would get traffic reports that were half an hour old. You'd be stuck in the traffic and go,
what the hell's going on? And you get the news like half an hour later. And you're stuck, you're
gone, whatever it is. And then I was supposed to read this thing as official and I said, okay,
so only if it's official, I guess. So what I did was I came up with the idea of unofficial,
real time, I just said unconfirmed reports. So I was doing traffic reports. I was just doing my
whole thing. I had the list and I just made a list of all the things as it came in and whatever
and all that. I recognized some patterns. And then I basically began to do traffic as it happened.
So I had the most reliable and this is the thing about, it's not that I had the best
or most excellent anything. I just had the least shit traffic reports. Right? And so everybody
trusted us for traffic. And it was like, so if you're a taxi driver, of course you love traffic
because traffic is going to be accurate. Right? And then so that was that. And people are mystified
for a while going, what kind of system and network and whatever and go like this. It's just simple
stuff. Just listen to your audience. And then eventually they adopted it, right? It went across
all stations. Yeah. They created this whole network, the whole department. And I think it's
really good that they're doing it that way, you know, but now they're hanging on to it.
So Joe Guston, Joe Guston was the one that created Traffic Watch.
I created a system that worked for me and then they created Traffic Watch.
Okay, wow.
Yeah. It's basically like, okay, you know, my innovation, my thing, my radio station,
and that's the way I looked at things. And now it's like,
it's been used across the board because it worked. Right?
Yep. Yep.
Well, okay. Well, that's something for everyone to chew on now. I don't think a lot of people
know that. But I think Traffic Watch now, it's the stupidest thing. Okay, come, come, come, come.
I will race you. Okay? Oh, Joe, Joe, Joe.
I will race you. Okay? We're going now from wherever we are, we're going to Jurong. Okay?
Right. Okay. Yeah.
So what are you going to do? If you want to know what traffic?
I'll check on my phone. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
So why am I going to wait for radio? Why should I wait for radio that has to wait for a song to end,
wait for a commercial to end, wait for a, I don't know what else to end. Before they come up with...
There are older people, there's older lot out there that don't want to, don't know how to use
their phones to check traffic. Your uncles and aunties, when they're not watching this,
are listening to Spotify. Okay, so they say older taxi drivers, for example.
You know, they're sitting in their cab. Sorry, Kai, he didn't say example, right?
Example. I didn't say example. What the fuck? I didn't say that. Did I say that?
Immediately after you said older people, for example.
For example. Yeah. Older people, for example.
Yeah. And I mean, older cab drivers, right? They sit in their taxis and they turn on the radio.
I mean, I don't think they'll be looking at their screen. So there's still pockets of people,
I would think, that's not just going to refer to their smart devices.
Okay. So this is the kind of excusing of old tech that lets this kind of thing continue,
right? Because it's really, seriously, I mean, I do not know of a cab driver
that doesn't use Google Maps or at least some version of that technology.
He wouldn't be on Google Map all the time unless he picks up a passenger and goes somewhere else.
But if he's in a cab alone, what would you do? You'd still leave your radio on.
No, but Google Maps tells you better than any radio station could as it's going along, right?
As you're traveling, it tells you there's an accident, there's a traffic jam, whatever it is.
So basically what- Okay. And the contrast is,
while that is happening, traffic itself, the traffic reporting itself is shit, right?
So if you listen to the traffic reporting, listen, right? On a busy, busy morning,
they will tell you what they can within a very short amount of time,
what traffic they can tell you about. Because I- Okay, okay. I'm not disagreeing
with you. I'm not saying it's good or wrong, right or wrong, good or bad. What I am saying is that
these days, from what I know of, is that jocks on air, right? Brevity is key.
And brevity is king. So I've been hearing some changes for traffic watch or traffic announcements
on air by various stations. And some that would go, even for weather, thundershowers,
thundershowers afternoon. And now it's like broke down, instead of breakdown, broke down on CTE
towards Changi Airport. And that's it. You know? I mean, it's-
That's not brevity. That's just bad schooling, right?
No, no. I think it's because they've been trained now or been told to try to summarize things as
short and as briefly as possible. So they go this direction.
I agree completely with that. Yeah. So maybe that's why. So when you mean
quality of delivery of this- Quality is usefulness of the broadcast.
As in like, if I'm telling you about traffic, I'll tell you about a bunch of stuff. Okay.
Just imagine I go like, okay, here's an update of the world, right? And then I tell you anything
about this particular part. I go like, you know, here's everything that Chris, here's the update.
We can talk about Chris's food all day, right? Okay. Vade. And that's all I say. So because of
brevity, I just say, oh, this, the Vade becomes about Vade. And then go like, hang on, you missed
a whole bunch of other stuff. And what you do is you stop the rest of it.
But these guys have been briefed, I suppose. It does seem to me that way.
Okay. You got to keep it really short and sweet.
How long have you been working for MediaCom, by the way? I'm just wondering.
No, no, no. I've been-
Seemed quite interested in helping them out.
No, no, no. I'm not helping them out, man. I'm not even finding an excuse. I'm just trying to
see whether or not what you're saying is really fair to these guys. Because what I know of,
from the people currently on radio, is that keep it short.
Yes. Keep it short.
I'm not saying that I like it. Personally, I don't like it.
I'm saying keep it relevant, right? So, okay, for me, why traffic on radio doesn't work at all
is because there's too much to be said in too little time. And there's a perfectly good
alternative. So the problem is when you try to... So the problem is what then is truly unique about
radio is actually the stuff you put in between the songs. So the songs I can get anywhere.
Right.
I can just play on, I put on playlists, I can get much better music, and with all the
expelitives I want as well. So the talk in between-
The talk sets, yeah.
...is what is really the difference now. And people who are watching this at this particular
point, they're not waiting for the next song. And if they want to know the traffic, they've
opened another window, they're using the device, whatever, that's the way the world works today.
So if you want to be a medium in today's world, then imagine if somebody now said,
I want to start a new form of media right now. And as part of a policy, the internet does not exist.
And you go like, wait, hang on. Why? No, no, no, no, no. We are very exclusive. We only want to use...
This is my Malaysian politician voice. We only want to use the traditional way of communicating.
So in fact, this radio, we don't even use radio waves. Everybody must come close enough.
So we play the music live.
And then you can hear.
Yeah, you can hear. You can hear. And then every now and then my friend Anwar will come with the
update about what's happening on the traffic and that side. But then you don't worry about it
because you don't have to go.
So you're saying that traffic watch is irrelevant.
It's irrelevant, yes.
Okay. So what else do you think in today's radio is irrelevant?
Okay. Half the news.
Okay.
Okay. Seriously. You listen to me. When have you been enlightened by the news update?
Again, if you are interested in it, right? You are going to get some stuff.
Even if you're not interested in it, your friends are WhatsAppping you with the latest
here and there already, whatever it is. That's the relevance of it.
If I want news, how many of you put radio as the number one choice?
Or you go online and get the news.
Yeah, exactly.
You don't even buy the broadsheets nowadays.
That's the thing about understanding how we serve an audience. This is how the audience uses you.
And what you want to do is please ignore all the things that you do and do it my stupid way.
So what you're saying is traffic, news, weather, sports, out the window.
Okay. So I'm not saying all that out the window.
I'm saying that fundamentally you have to go beyond what just those things are.
You don't just say, okay, a really good example for me is when SPH was going into the online space,
and then they were trying to go into videos and talking about all the different things,
and they're trying to produce videos and all that.
So with all the empathy I can gather up for this, they were shit.
They were horrible.
The words were correct, but the presentation was terrible.
It didn't sound like people who are really credible talking about the stuff that they like.
The words were right, but the presentation wasn't right.
The heart of it is good entertainment.
Even if it's talking about traffic, even if it's talking about the weather,
it's about entertainment.
It's not about precipitation is at this level or whatever it is.
It's about a weather person that comes across with personality.
So something has to be, whatever is being done should be for the purpose of that.
But the traffic reports that I hear now on the radio are nothing to do with that.
Nothing to do with entertainment.
Yeah. I'm not trying to relate to you about traffic and go like,
oh, it looks like another terrible day on the CTE today.
I used to make jokes about, wonderful to have a COE today because you're getting some real value
from the traffic jam.
Yeah, but then again, there'll be people who frown at that these days.
Frown?
Well, I mean, look, I don't like them.
Okay. Let me just, let me be clear.
Those people that call out culture and shit and all that, and all virtue signaling and all that crap.
Nowadays, I think there's been people, DJs, I pity them, honestly.
If they were to say, for example, come up and give traffic in a foreign accent,
just for fun, shits and giggles, okay?
Then you get complaints, you know?
Yeah.
Right? And then if you say something like, oh, your COE is in really good use,
then who knows, the authority, some authority might complain about that.
Yeah.
Are you making fun of the COE?
And then, you know, we get so tight arsed for so many fucking things.
And in the end, what happens?
These guys are controlled, they can't do this, they can't do that.
And there's no more entertainment in that.
There's no entertainment value anymore.
You can't add on to that.
Yeah.
So I really empathize with these guys.
Wow.
I do.
I mean, I mean, if I believe that if, well, if you're properly selected to be a radio personality,
which means you know how to entertain for these kind of people,
and you're really handcuffed to say these things, to entertain your audience,
and at risk of getting yourself in trouble.
Yeah.
Right?
So okay, you know, I really think it's really not their fault.
It is what it is, man.
Don't you think?
Okay.
It is what it is.
It's only true when you accept it, right?
So, you know, for me, the person who is like, you know, I really don't like being a prostitute, no?
I have sex with people I find terribly unattractive,
and then sometimes the pay now also not so good.
And then I have to do these special things where they give me special more money for this and all that.
I really, really, I really cannot stand doing this.
So you would still push the buck, right? Wouldn't you? If you were still on the radio.
No, I don't push the buck. I say again, if you're worth it, do it, right?
Yeah.
But you risk losing your job, man.
Look, that is the rice bowl trap that you find yourself in when you do not diversify, right?
No, looks like.