So I sold it, I sold them the bones at medical school.
They would buy it, okay, and they would get attached to it and they would keep it.
What?
Some give it names.
Hey meet my boner.
This is a femur, but meet my boner.
This guy's name is my boner.
Welcome everybody to this new episode of the Chris Hansen conversation and today it is
all about jobs.
It is about I love my job.
And it'd be interesting for everyone to actually listen and watch this show because why?
I have with me today the CEO, founder and career strategist for Career Agility International.
You hear him every week on this radio show and I will not give them free advertising.
He is on their radio show every week and he talks about all kinds of stuff pertaining
to your career, pertaining to jobs.
And I just had to have him here in my studio and welcome Adrian Chew.
My absolute pleasure to be here, finally to be in the hot seat with you.
No, my seat not hot.
I think the seat on radio hotter.
No, you're more stressed because your equipment here looks more pro than a radio station.
You're shitting me.
I'm not kidding you.
Really?
Yeah, I'm very impressed.
I am very impressed.
I'm very happy to be here today and I think we're going to have a fun time today this
morning.
Yeah, I intend to have a fun time man.
I mean, just a couple of rules though.
Rule number one, this is not radio.
Rule number two, this is not radio.
Rule number three, this is not radio.
So it's a podcast, so let's really have a real heart to heart man.
I got a ton of things to ask you, but to be fair, to be fair to our audience, you know,
because I am very cognizant of the fact, my friends are going to hate me for this shit,
cognizant of the fact that not many people listen to radio these days.
They do go digital natives.
Let me come on.
Let's be honest here, right?
A lot of digital natives.
And no doubt it's Facebook live, there's all that, right?
But then again, to reach out to a wider audience, the young and the old and across the globe.
And this show is across the globe.
So I will just want you to tell everyone in my usual fashion, that's how I usually start
the show, who is Adrian Chu?
Well, I'm the career strategist and I help individuals with their careers.
Usually it's the executives and senior executives who are at the career crossroads, who are
trying to figure out what to do next in their career.
So I come in together with my team to help craft out a career strategy for them.
Because a lot of times when we have clients coming to us and asking us, hey, Adrian, I
want a better job.
You ask them, what's a better job?
They cannot articulate it.
So we sit down and work with them on the strategy and how to deploy it.
So my background has been in head hunting.
Before that I was in Shell and GE Plastics.
Wait, wait, wait.
You've got to stop there first.
You're head hunting is one, that one we can all understand.
Now let's go back to what you've just said, Shell and GE, General Electric.
General Electric, yeah.
What were you doing there, man?
So my first job was in Shell actually, and I used to joke with my son, he was really
young.
He said, daddy, where do you work?
He said, work in Shell.
And he asked me, you mean at the petrol station pumping gas?
Something like that.
It's a decent job, man.
I love the guys at the Shell station.
Actually I would love that job because I love inhaling the fumes.
I would work there for free.
I was doing, so I was offered, when I joined Shell, I was offered two positions.
I was offered one where you get a cushy job of managing the Shell stations or the industrial
one where you sell to the construction sites and everything.
And then no hero, Garang, me, just went and said, give me the grimy job.
So I spent the first three years of my career trudging in construction boots and construction
sites, doing all the fun stuff, selling, really believe it, wire rope, grease, everything
else.
You're shitting me.
But it was the best learning experience for me.
But what was your qualification, academic qualification prior to getting your landing
that job, man?
No, I was in the business, I was a graduate from NUS Business School.
Business school.
So it was a marketing sales position.
So in Shell, they put you through various positions for you to learn the business.
So even putting on the hard hat.
Oh yes, it was fun.
I even did the marine bunkering business once, which meant I had to go on board the vessels,
climb up and down to manually check that everything was legal and all perfectly done.
So yeah, I've done the vessels bit and interesting story.
So I've been married 25 years, noticed no ring.
Notice no ring too.
I've got a legit excuse.
So do I.
Let me hear yours first.
So when I got married, I had a ring on.
Because I was climbing up and down oil tankers, I was climbing up and down the vessels, the
ring got so badly scratched.
To the point where I was so bad, then I said, I'm not going to wear a ring.
And I told my wife, is it okay if I don't wear the ring?
Fine, whatever.
So since then, my excuse, I don't wear the ring anymore.
What's your excuse?
Oh, very simple, man.
When I got married, I was like a lot smaller.
All of a sudden the ring looked too damn small.
It couldn't go through my first digit, go past my first digit.
Then my wife stopped wearing as well because the ring got too big.
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter, man.
We know we're married, right?
We know who we married.
It doesn't really matter.
So that was my excuse.
So my first couple of years I was in Shell, lots of fun stuff.
But there was a turning point in my career in Shell.
It was in 1998, 1999 during the Asian financial crisis.
Everyone talks about people, you and I, from that generation, we always remember that's
97, 98, right?
The first one we got married.
Yeah.
That was really fucked up.
That was messy.
They let go a third of their book home stuff.
And you know, being young, fresh, graduate, and you see those uncles in their forties,
by the way, we are uncles to the...
Don't anyone fucking call me that today.
I've had enough people calling me uncle too, man.
So I saw the uncles who got retrenched and it was nightmarish for them.
I saw and I saw that they only had one job, one career all the while.
And I said to myself, oh man, if I stay here in this company, and when I'm 40, I'm going
to get hit by that.
And then what do I do next?
So I decided that I do not want to put my career in the hands of a blank, blind entity.
So basically what you're saying is becoming too expensive and too experienced.
And somewhat irrelevant because the market changes.
And to me, it was a matter of career security.
I didn't feel career secure if I had to put my future career into the hands of an entity.
Well, can I also add to that, or of an entity, MNC otherwise, or otherwise, of people who
are in the position of leadership that would likely be younger than you?
Yeah.
So it's okay to report to someone younger than me, who's smarter than me.
The worry I have is that if I stayed in Shell or a big oil company, my skills become irrelevant.
And I still remember that was, I used to be a technology kid.
I was a techie.
I grew up a techie.
Still a techie.
Still a techie, but I grew up with techie.
I grew up with, on the days when the Apple IIe still required a cassette tape to go in.
Oh wow.
So I always loved tech.
But when I stayed in a corporate job, I was really getting too comfortable.
To the point where Windows 98 came up, right?
New OS.
Do I need to learn a new OS?
So I suddenly caught myself and said, hey, no, no, I'm starting to, I'm starting to
ossify.
I started to calcify and get-
Right.
Stiff.
Stiff and-
Not flexible.
Very soon I'll be a curmudgeon, old grumpy old man, get off my lawn kind of guy.
I needed to move out.
So that's why I left Shell in 2000 to do my own business.
24 years ago.
Okay.
24 years ago.
So that was how I started in Shell.
Okay.
Then after, but there's an interesting story about something you did during university
years.
Oh yeah.
God, man.
Can you tell us about that?
So I've always had that entrepreneurial streak.
So what was funny was I had this, okay.
So I come, I'm a science guy.
I love science.
I love biology.
Okay.
But I cannot stand blood and I cannot stand bones and I cannot stand guts and yeah, I'll
throw up if I saw it.
So did bodies especially.
So I couldn't be a doctor.
Right.
Okay.
So I decided that, hey, you know, what else can I do?
So I watched this movie.
Okay.
Fantastic life-changing movie.
In, in, it was called Wall Street.
Remember Wall Street?
Oh, you mean the one by Joe Lo.
Oh no, that's Wolf of Wall Street.
I watched Wall Street.
Yeah.
Michael, Michael, Michael Douglas.
Yeah.
Charlie Sheen.
Yeah.
Do you remember his, what his character was called?
Oh God.
I can't remember.
Gordon Gekko.
Yeah.
That's it.
And he was going, greed is good.
Yeah.
Jogged my memory.
I was like, whoa, you know, the finance, the world of business and everything.
I said, okay, I'm going to switch over to business.
So, so after I got, after I got my A level results, I wanted to get, I actually got into
an US business school.
Right.
And I thought to myself, I said, oh shucks, Adrian, you're going into business school
with no economics, no finance, nothing, no knowledge at all.
Yeah.
You're going to be slaughtered once you get into business school.
So I said, okay, I'm going to try start a business.
Okay.
So I said, so my brother was talking to me, my older brother was in medical school then.
Okay.
He was complaining to me.
He said, no Adrian, we cannot find human skeletons anymore for an anatomy class.
So I said, okay, let's go source for them.
So I managed to get a source in Europe where they got medical grade human bones.
No, no.
So you're telling me those are real human bones.
No.
Okay.
Those human bones are clean bones.
Okay.
So, so prior to that, they bleached the bones.
Yeah.
Prior to us, prior to me starting the business, they used to get the bones from India.
Okay.
Yeah.
The Indian bones were very good specimens.
I saw so morbid saying this.
Yeah.
Well, why?
Okay.
So they were well treated and because the mortality rate was higher, they were younger.
So the bone specimens were all very nice and intact and they were smaller, but it was very
good.
So all the features, the foramenia and all the other pieces all were in there.
But India banned the exports in the eighties, you know, because they were taking up breaks.
No, fuck that dude.
You sound like fucking Hannibal Lecter, man.
Oh, they were very nice.
Yes.
Yes, clearly.
So the bones were in good condition.
So because there was a ban in the exports, no one else could get the bones anymore.
So I managed to source a supply in Germany.
Right.
And it was over there in Europe, it was a medical grade.
So those bones belong to people who donate their body to science.
Okay.
So it's like when I die, I donate the body to science.
In Singapore, you can do it too, you know.
No, thanks.
Okay.
Well, thanks for that morbid info, but yeah, okay.
I'm going to donate mybones.com.
I have no idea where to go.
But apparently you can donate your body, your cadaver to the NUS Yong Yulin School of Science.
Okay.
Yeah.
Anyway, I digress.
So it's okay, digress, it's fine.
So the bones came in from Germany.
Right.
I just brought them in and I sold them to the medical students.
Right.
So anyway, you sold them to the medical students or to the medical faculty?
Medical students directly.
What?
Yeah.
These people actually individually as individuals, medical students and they fucking buy human
bones.
So if we have any doctors out there, okay, who are about our age, they will remember
me.
Oh, you're the bones guy at a medical, at a school.
They would buy it, okay.
And they will get attached to it and they will keep it.
What?
Some give it names.
Meet my boner.
This is a femur, but meet my boner.
This guy's name is my boner.
It's crazy.
So medical students, they buy and those who, some even resell it the year after.
They sell it to the juniors.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
So I was in the business selling medical grade skeletons to anatomy students in NUS.
And then, so I wasn't, when I went to NUS, right?
I was still running the business.
So at any point in time, I was quite fortunate.
I was driving my dad's car.
My dad retired.
So I drove the car to school.
Any more point in time, I would have skeletons in my boot.
But let me tell you a funnier story.
Oh no, cops up you.
I checked you trunk.
No, I tell you what's even funnier.
What's even funnier was when I first brought them in and I thought, where do I keep these
bones?
So I tried calling a few.
The last time they didn't have store hub.
No one else wanted to, what are you keeping?
I want you to store bones.
So I kept it in my house.
Okay.
I kept it in my room.
Oh no.
I kept them under my bed.
At one point in time.
I had 30 skeletons in my room.
It couldn't fit under the bed.
I had to literally fit it in my closet.
So I literally had skeletons in the closet.
It was ridiculous.
What an awesome story, man.
So at any point in time, in school and my classmates knew I was having skeletons, whenever
they were bored, just go to your car.
Let's see some bones.
So was it lucrative?
It was pretty lucrative.
It was good.
And towards the end, suddenly the decline, the supply of bones declined.
It was linear.
Too few people dying.
No, I tell you why.
Mortality was low.
No, I tell you why.
I was puzzled as well.
I don't know why.
There was someone else soaking up all the dead people market.
Oh, the bastard.
It was that body world's doctor, you know?
Oh, that guy.
That guy who does the dead bodies.
Yeah, that control guy.
That control guy.
You read about the recent controversy that that woman was actually murdered and then
he remodeled her body, right?
Yeah, correct.
So he literally soaked up the whole market and so much so that he would pay top dollar
for it.
So it was just nice because I just graduated.
I was talking around the business while in Shell.
So you never had the intention to actually continue.
No, no, no.
It was an experiment.
But the beautiful thing about it was that it was part of my career strategy because
I wanted to separate myself from the rest of the other undergrad.
So when I applied for Shell, they took notice of me because I put the word soaked human
skeletons as a business.
And so much so, when I went to talk to HR the first time, HR said, tell me about the
bones.
Here I got one in my back pocket.
So it was good positioning, but let me tell you what's funny.
What's funny is after I sold everything off and I knew human bones were hard to get by.
You don't say.
So I thought maybe next time, next time maybe my kids might want to study medicine and therefore
they might need a side.
So I kept one set for myself.
I kept it all the way in my cupboard.
I got married, I moved to a new place, it followed me.
I didn't tell my wife.
This is the girl I murdered before I married you.
So I didn't tell my wife about it.
It was funny because ultimately I did.
I said, okay, look, if ever, if ever I get arrested, you have to be my alibi.
This is not somebody we murdered together.
Bro, I gotta tell you this man.
This is the third season, this is the third season of CHC and let me tell you, I've never
heard a story so funny until now.
This one takes a fucking cake, man.
It's hilarious.
So ultimately when my kids were older and they didn't realize, I didn't realize they
weren't going to study medicine.
So they gave the last set away to the Nanyang Poly School of Nursing.
Okay, good for you.
Good for me.
So now it's...
They're going to give you a punk, man.
The bone sponsored by Adrian Chu.
So now the cops raid my house and they find a skeleton in there.
They know it's not from that original batch.
Oh man, that's so funny, man.
Okay, okay, okay.
We're going to get on with the topic at hand.
Okay, so from Shell, you went into head hunting, right?
Yeah.
And what made you go into that direction?
Well, the fun part about it was that I've always been very interested in careers and
I've always been very good at selling.
And I decided...
You could sell fucking skeletons and come on.
Yeah, I know, right?
So it was quite fun and I found that head hunting was a job where I would enjoy doing, something
that plays into my strengths.
And the nice thing about head hunting was that it's a skill you pick up and then you
become, if you're good at it, you become company independent.
Okay.
Which means that you become your own vendor.
So whatever company you're looking for is just a brand.
So in other words, if I'm not happy with this company, I just quit.
I go to another company.
My clients will follow me.
So therefore my original concern in Shell about me being too dependent on a company
or the career and security piece was resolved.
So from then on, I decided that I'll do it.
What was fun was that...
Sorry.
So in the first year, I did my own business.
So in my first year, I worked normally.
So I got a paycheck and everything.
In the second year, my business stabilized to a point where I told my boss, don't give
me a salary.
Give me a commission, straight commission on anything I build.
So in other words, if I don't build anything, you don't pay me.
But the deal is...
You give me a sweetheart deal because I cost you nothing.
Well, ballsy.
Yeah.
So he said, okay, sure.
So I got a sweetheart deal.
In the next nine years plus, I was running on my own.
So I took it as my own business.
Right.
And because my boss didn't pay me anything, right?
Right.
He couldn't tell me when I could come, when I could go.
I remember I used to take like three week vacations in December.
Wow.
Yeah.
But the downside to it is, in the recession 2008, it was tough.
But it's okay.
I still have my clients going on.
Right.
So it was a very gutsy move.
But for me, it all adds up to this thing about wanting to be career independent, company
independent.
Right.
And that has given me a lot of job security.
Peace of mind.
Okay.
Not job security.
You stopped yourself at job security.
Why?
You see, the problem with individuals today, and I'm going to share this with our listeners
out there, okay.
The challenge with our mindset today is everyone is worried about job security.
Whenever we do a survey, we hear people telling us 82% of Singaporeans are worried about their
job.
Yeah.
And whether they have a job in the next couple of months, I know next year whether it's going
to be retrenchment.
What we say is this.
You're worrying about your job and job security.
You're being silly.
Okay.
Why?
Because there's nothing you can do about job security.
Why?
What do you mean by that?
Job security means I'm worried I'll lose my job.
So what do I do?
I play politics.
I make sure I step that guy in the back.
He gets out first.
I kiss my boss's ass.
Okay.
I do all sorts of stuff just to hang on.
And many of us know of people like that.
Yeah.
They're just players.
They're animals because they're so worried about job security.
Yeah.
They will eat someone else.
They'll eat someone.
Maybe your boss is so worried about his own job security.
He doesn't want you to go and top him.
Yeah.
Even if you are, and if there's a job cutting, a cost cutting exercise, he's going to cut
your job.
He's going to cut his job.
So being worried about job security is something which is something you can't control.
Basically, can we boil this down to job security is a myth?
It is a myth.
It is an illusion.
So what we say is don't look at job security.
Look at career security.
And career security means you'll be so damn good at your job that even if your boss fires
you, you walk over to your competitor and say, I'll work for you.
You might get a pay raise or you know, walk over because you own the customers.
You own the know-how.
You own the technology.
And then you walk over.
So if you are really good at your game, you should strive towards career security, knowing
what your skills are, what you're the subject matter expert in.
So much so that you don't have to be at the mercy of the company because you can pick
your stuff up, walk across the street and plonk down, start another company or even
start your own company.
So in essence, what you're saying is be good at what you do to be great.
Yes.
And my favorite analogy is this.
When you see a bird perched on top of a very tall tree and if you see him sleeping on
a tall tree and you're wondering, he's so peaceful and so confident.
Does he have confidence in the strength of the branch or in the strength of his wings?
A job insecure person hopes the branch doesn't break, especially if the bird is getting fatter
and the wings are getting weaker because they've not exercised those wings in a long time.
So a job insecure person will worry about the branch.
But a career secure person is someone who says, so sure, if the branch breaks, fine,
I'll fly off to the next tree, a bigger tree.
Unless you get a freaking predator bird come down to swoop you because you're out there.
Correct, that's why you must be so good, you fly up to a higher tree and you see your
boss bird lower down your shit on his head and you go fly away and you don't even care.
So that's where we want our clients to become career secure.
And once you have the career security, you stop worrying about a lot of things.
Well, you said something earlier when you started the skeleton business, the bones business,
you've always had this entrepreneurial streak in you.
Can you define what entrepreneurial streak really means?
In your own words, I'd like to understand what's your thoughts on that.
What does it mean? Or is it a feeling?
No, I think it's tough.
For me, I think I always joke that entrepreneurs are crazy bunch.
We are nut cases, okay?
Entrepreneurs are people who get frustrated with their long hours at the corporate company,
corporate job, the stresses and everything, right?
And they quit and they go start their own business and they experience twice as long
work hours, three times as much stress and everything, and you're happy at it.
So I think an entrepreneur is someone who's brave enough to start off to invest in their own ideas.
But when you're at a young age and as an undergraduate and you realize I have an entrepreneurial streak,
what do you think for a young person, for anyone for that matter?
I mean, I've always known I wanted to be an entrepreneur.
So what kind of, what would be, but some people will go, but I'm not sure.
So what would be, in your opinion, the telltale sign that a person really has that streak?
Would it be an emotional thing or would it be a trait?
You wouldn't know until you're in the deep end of it. So my suggestion is start small.
My skeleton business, I started and I said, look, I'm just going to test out by buying one skeleton first.
And I see if there's demand, then I will scale it up.
And it all started with one and I bought the first skeleton for $800.
I sold it for $1,003.
And I said to myself, if I lose, I've just gotten $800 worth of experience in one skeleton to be put in my room forever.
But it's, and it took off. So I think you start small.
The biggest thing I worry about for our listeners out there who are thinking about starting your own business is this.
If you watch Shark Tank, Mark Cuban, my favorite shark.
He always says, he once said this thing, you start a business when you have a real good idea or product.
You try that out, you test it out, it works. And then you go all in on it.
Be an entrepreneur, not a one-troponeur.
A one-troponeur is someone who says, I want to be an entrepreneur. Let me think. What can I do?
Oh, maybe I'll sell these fake microphones or this real microphone.
Excuse me. They are real. Thank you very much.
Yeah, jeez. Okay. Or maybe they want to sell fake ones that look like real ones.
Then they start looking around for, and they kill themselves because they have half-baked business idea.
Just because they want to be an entrepreneur.
So an entrepreneur is someone who actually, for me, I believe is that you have an idea, you run with it, and then you take the leap.
I take the leap and then I figure, I mean, sometimes it works both ways.
So basically it's dedication and commitment to what you want to do.
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of courage and stupidity involved as well.
Oh yeah, a lot of stupidity.
In your opinion, man, these days, what are the top three reasons, just three, for people leaving their jobs?
By your experience?
The boss.
So really, employees quit their bosses. They don't quit their jobs.
They quit their boss. So one is the boss. And it could be that the boss leaves, the new boss comes in, and then they go like, oh shucks, this is changing dynamics.
Right.
I think some people leave also because they get bored. They get bored with the work they do.
And interestingly, when people are bored with the work they do, sometimes it's legit, sometimes it's not legit.
Right.
So we get clients coming to us saying, actually, I left my job. I love my boss. The money is good.
And it's what I've been doing this for the past five years. I'm very bored. I want to see what's out there.
I want to see whether there's better things, more money, whatever. And it's perfectly fine.
Right.
Okay. But sometimes you have a good thing going.
Right.
Okay. You just need to find stuff within your job to do that makes it more exciting.
But then you go outside and for that, I tell them your diagnosis is IBS.
You know what IBS is?
Irritable bowel syndrome.
Yeah. In this case, it's itchy backside syndrome.
Because you're itchy backside. You're sitting down. It's like, no, it's nice. Oh, what do I do?
I used to call it the pretty girlfriend syndrome.
So you're married, no, everything's all fine, but you see a pretty girl and you go, hmm.
Right. So don't do that. Sometimes the solution is found within your company.
But sometimes, okay, girlfriend story aside, okay.
You need to know why you're leaving.
Leave for the right reason. Join the company for the right reason.
Right.
If these two are settled, I think you should move.
But sometimes the itchy backside syndrome, the itch is so damn deep inside.
There's an itch you just cannot fucking scratch. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
For some people, right? I mean, the sense of adventure, you know, to just go forward and really venture in a new, you know.
The unexplored territory. That chart of that map in front of you.
You go, how would it be if I'm there, if I'm there, you know.
And I think it's okay if you got your money settled and everything's all done. Your kids, you know.
The biggest thing is money, I would say.
Wouldn't it be about that? I mean, that's why I asked you the top three reasons, you know.
I mean, first, you said it's your boss. Second, it would be the sense of adventure.
I want to get the fuck out and try something new.
Third thing is would be?
A lot of times it's money.
It's that, right.
Money, money, money.
It's the money. And for the last, say, you've had career agility for how long?
Oh, it's been five years already.
Five years, okay. But you've been a headhunter for, I mean, if you compare it to...
I was a headhunter for a very long time.
A very long time, right? Okay. So these three reasons you just cited,
are they any different from, say, people you've met 10, 20 years ago?
I think it's always been quite universal.
The quit the boss one. So when I was headhunting, whenever I needed to get someone to leave his comfortable job,
to talk to my client so that they can explore, so that I can pull him over.
One of the first questions I would ask him is, how's your boss?
So my boss is good. My boss is great. I love to be here.
Then I ask him, how long has your boss been there?
Oh, he's been here for 15 years, but he's going to retire next year.
I say, who's the new boss coming in? I don't know.
And then that's a little hook which you pull him out.
This is your hot button.
The hot button. So whenever we want to trigger someone, a headhunter,
whenever it's a headhunter, and I'm filling out our black arts here, okay.
If you want to trigger the person to who's...
And you see, the type of headhunting I did was called retain search,
which means that they pay us money, we look for the people.
It's not like your normal searches where if I can find someone, you pay me.
They pay us, we map the market, we hunt, oh, these three guys are the best.
These three guys don't want to leave their jobs because they're star performers.
I don't want to have people who are desperate for jobs for my client because something's wrong.
So these star performers do not want to move.
So it requires a lot of skill and finesse to be able to even pull them to the table.
So one of the black arts that we do is this.
You got to find that, you got to find that pinch.
The hook, yeah.
Okay. Hook him, pinch him, pull him in.
One of it is the job. It's the boss.
Can you see yourself working with the new boss?
And then you go, no, cannot, no.
And I say, yeah, why not just have a conversation?
So that's where the boss is.
The second thing, it's the second hook, same thing as well.
Can you see yourself doing this job for the next 10 years?
No, I can't.
Well, our client has got plans for you.
The progression.
The progression, I think, for you.
See, and then the third thing is the money.
So for those same three reasons, are the same three trigger points.
To hook into the guy and pull him over to the table for a conversation.
And even when the individual wants to, after the offer is being made,
and if he's having second doubts, like second thoughts about it,
maybe I don't want to move.
We remind him again, your boss is not going to be there to take care of you.
Or do you want to be your own boss now?
You've been standing in the shadow for so many years.
So these are all the black arts that we do.
And we pull them over and that's what we are paid for.
That's what Top 10 Haters does.
That's what you're paid for.
It's the push, pull, it's the sayang, it's the prodding,
or the management, the whole process that we do.
Basically, sales.
Sales, exactly.
It's selling, everything you just said to me is all selling.
It's selling, isn't it?
Of course it is.
And that's one of the key life skills I always say that we need to have.
Everybody must learn how to be a good salesperson.
Regardless of what you do, especially for your job.
Especially for our kids.
I think if you make them have at least just one month of holiday job selling...
Selling something.
Superwear or whatever.
Whatever.
I think the selling piece is just fantastic.
You know, you mentioned earlier, I don't want to be stuck in one place forever
the rest of my life.
I better move on, right?
But I remember in the past, I don't think that's the case today.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Great scrutiny from headhunters and from HR people in companies is placed on a
person's resume based on, for example, one of the things though, how many jobs
that this person actually held over a certain period of time.
So whether or not to determine whether the person's a job hopper.
And then after that, the conclusion or assumption would be that, A, this guy's
loyalty is a little questionable, right?
But then in recent times, again, I can stand corrected.
Is it true that people now, HR and headhunters, would prefer to have someone
who hadn't had more experience because the person's had a myriad worth of jobs?
And the assumption that maybe that person would have had acquired new skills and
learned and then had the experience to handle more things.
Am I right or wrong?
But you're right.
We've seen the shift.
But once again, it all depends.
Because a person can be in a company for 15 years, but if you look at this
progression in the organization, it's grown, new field, new country, new
portfolio, new responsibilities.
I think that's good.
So you could be in the same job, you could be in the same company doing different
jobs, or you could be in the same company doing the same boring, stupid job for
the past 15 years and it's no progression.
So it all depends.
And then we see individuals who every two years they leave.
And once again, we want to see as headhunters, we want to see the pattern.
Are they moving to something bigger, better, more exciting, bigger scope?
If there's a trend of growth, progression, a trajectory, that's good.
But when we see a lateral move into another different industry.
So we had this individual once.
He spent the first five years in education, and then he went to logistics.
After he went to insurance, after that you get the picture.
A Rolling Stone gathers no more.
And for us, that's the biggest red flag over someone who doesn't really know what
he wants or is a person who cannot fit in.
But it all depends on how old this person is.
It all depends also.
So if you're in your 20s, it's fine.
You can skip around, get experiences.
But in your 30s, you really need to settle down, get a domain, be an expert in it.
Like for yourself, in your 30s, what were you doing in your 30s?
I'd rather not say on air.
The statute of limitations are over, I'm sure.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
I mean, I really cannot, I really can't, based on corporate governance on that particular side.
But I can just simply say that I've always stood on two industries.
Which are?
And as a veteran, I would not mention the first one, especially on this podcast show.
On the second?
The second would be, well, being behind a microphone.
Yeah.
And that's where you gain.
I mean, we all have different areas where we stand on.
And it's fine because we are not a single dimensional person, right?
So if you look at your experience behind the mic, it's been varied.
It's been progressive.
And if you look at it, even today, you see all that has come to the point where you're
doing videos, you're doing...
Okay.
Isn't it?
You looked at it that way.
Yeah.
So it's okay.
So this is your chosen field, your profession.
And I think that's good.
Some people in their 30s and 40s still haven't quite figured out what their chosen profession
is.
So they're still hopping around.
And that's where it gets difficult.
Because if you're in your 40s and you don't have the domain expertise in one particular
space, or functional expertise, it's hard to land a good job.
Because they're going to look at you and they go like, yeah, but you're not the expert.
The 30 year old guy, the 35 year old guy has got so much more experience than you.
Because he decided what he was good at.
Or to be good at.
Yeah.
So it's difficult if you are a...
If the person is a jack of all trades, master of none, what he should be is a jack of all
trades, master of some.
So certain elements you're really good at.
Because if you're just good at one thing, it's still not good enough.
Master of some instead of none.
Yeah.
Master of some.
So jack of all trades, master of some.
And I think that's going to set you aside from a lot of other people.
Oh, fuck man.
I'm screwed.
Okay.
I don't think so.
You're doing well.
I'm screwed, man.
I'm screwed.
What do you think of HR policies today?
In general, in terms of employee welfare, you have a wish list of how employee welfare
can be improved?
Wow.
There's a reason why I ask this question.
There's a reason because I'm going to move to the next.
I'm right after your answer.
Yeah.
Well, there is a war for talent right now, for good talent.
Okay.
So HR is trying very hard to, the organizations are trying very hard to attract all these
interesting, good, super talented people.
Is it rare nowadays, finding super talented people?
It's getting competitive because right now what they're looking for are niche players.
Oh.
Very, very specific people.
With specific skills.
Very specific skills.
Right.
A very specific set of skills.
Right.
Like Liam Neeson in Taken.
So, skills, you have a whole number of lifetime.
A very specific set of skills.
I will find you and I will kill you.
Those specific skills, okay.
Good one.
So, so-
So trades are great now actually, to be a person in a trade.
Actually, I absolutely agree.
You know, if I was once asked by somebody, I said, no, if Google invented an AI that could
be, that could replace a career coach, what would you do?
And their job's totally gone.
You know what I'll do?
I will take one year off.
Right.
I'll get certified to be a plumber.
Yeah.
And I'll clean other people's toilet bowls.
Oh man.
Man, that job pays.
Yeah.
That job, you'll never get out of business.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's why in Australia, the tradies-
Are the ones that are very, quite respected actually.
They are.
They are, yeah.
I still remember five years back, I was in UK and I was staying in one of those homestay
things.
And the owner came out and said, please do not flush anything bigger than this size into
the toilet bowl because to get a plumber, it's going to cost me 300 pounds.
Yeah.
I was going like, yeah, seriously?
So there's the thing.
Singapore hasn't caught up with that.
I don't know if you watched the episode I had last season with Kenneth Wong and he started
this company called Catch.
It's a locksmith.
Yes.
I saw that one.
And he was the guy, he's an academic man.
He was a senior lecturer in polytechnics, right?
And prior to that, he had experience, prior experience in public relations and all that,
right?
And then now he's a locksmith and he's so fucking happy being a locksmith.
But I tell you the trouble with Singaporean customers, the consumer, they haggle with
you and they look at you as if you're just a 3D, you know what I mean?
And I think that's yet to catch up with our vile culture here.
I think we are so fucking snobbish about this shit.
And that's why I think if I were to start up, restart again, I would start at a high
end toilet cleaning business.
High end, high end.
Just service bungalows, landfills properties, all the GCBs.
Yeah.
And we'll get, I'll get more educated people appearing to clean up.
Good afternoon, sir.
May I clean out your washroom?
He's more like a butler service dude.
More like a butler service.
But I think there's a niche.
So I believe if I had to reboot, I would reboot in a trade.
Right.
I think it's so absolutely, you're absolutely right.
The tradies, they're respected in other countries, but Singapore.
Yeah.
Sadly.
There's a solution to it.
Yeah.
Which is?
Painful and impossible to implement.
Yeah.
Ban all Malaysians, foreigners, whatever, from doing that.
And you cannot, because then the price of the thing goes up.
Let me tell you why it cannot.
Let me tell you why.
As you said just now, this is a scrunch right now, looking for super talented people who
are niche, right?
And the reason why we have this issue is because people today don't want to work in anything
that's simenial, you know, or is laborious or, you know, is blue or considered blue collar.
Yeah.
For example, even now, if you take a look, we are having issues with the hawker business.
Oh yeah.
Right.
We're having issues, even worse, coffee shop business.
Oh yeah.
Cleaners.
Exactly.
Cleaners is one thing.
So, we came up with this thing about returning your trays and all that.
People who maybe lost their jobs.
I don't know.
I'm not sure.
But one thing is for sure is that your kopi kia.
The guy working in a coffee shop helping you clean the tables, not just that, also fix
the coffee for you and all that.
Nowadays, it's very hard to find workers to take those roles because now they're cafes.
So the young today, even if they're not a graduate or not a poly holder, poly diploma
holder, what would they do if they're going to do work like this?
They work in a cafe.
I'm now a barrister.
And Singaporeans don't even want to do that.
Exactly.
Even at that level.
Exactly.
Let me share with you, okay?
Singaporeans, fellow Singaporeans here, I can tell you that we are a bit spoiled.
A bit, huh?
A bit.
Right.
That's a fucking understatement.
Let me tell you a typical conversation for recruitment, between a recruiter and a candidate.
Hi, we got a job that's really good.
It's really exciting.
Oh really?
Wow, that's great.
Where is it?
It's in Jurong, Doan.
Why?
Too far away.
Too far.
Where are you staying?
Doan asked.
Say what?
There's no far way.
No, too far.
I want to work in a town.
Oh, we got another job at Shantung Way.
It's a long Shantung Way.
It's a really good job.
The money is good.
Got shelter from MRT or no?
Oh my gosh.
No, no shelter.
I don't want.
So, I'm not making this up, okay?
We are spoiled, rightly or wrongly so.
Okay, it's a, I wouldn't say it's a happy problem to have, but it's a blessing to be
so choosy at this level.
Whereas the Malaysian, give it to me, whatever it is.
Exactly.
These people are more hungry, right?
Now, which leads me to this point, the reason why I ask you this question is because you
heard of Glassdoor, right?
Yeah.
What's your opinion on that stupid fucking forum called Glassdoor?
I think it's stupid.
You heard me say it.
It's fucking stupid.
Okay.
And I think employers should have one for themselves and exchange information.
So, my business partner, Ian and I, we all have this ongoing job, okay?
Yeah.
Glassdoor should be renamed Toilet Door.
Because it's the same stuff, same principle.
People are bored, nothing to do, they are taking a dump and then they go, you write
something on the toilet door, okay?
Something disparaging.
So, if you see bad comments about the company, the CEO or whatever it is, who are the people
who actually spend time on Glassdoor to write something nasty or vindictive?
Those are really people who have been pissed off to the point where I can't take it anymore.
I really need to vent.
So, a lot of the negative comments there, there's no smoke without fire.
That's true.
But these people are pissed off.
Right.
So, not objective anymore.
Right.
And then you see the wonderful, glorious, oh, the CEO is great, it's a great place to
work.
Those are done by HR in damage control.
So, they got into Glassdoor and undercover work.
That's why it's like a toilet door.
You don't really believe what you're taking a dump and you're reading the toilet door.
But how many people do you think are really taking the stuff they read in Glassdoor seriously?
I think a lot of people are.
Exactly.
That's the fucking problem.
So, that's the problem.
Yeah.
So, it's got to take a shovel of salt, actually.
No, you see, the thing is we, you, me, guys like you, guys like me, can take that with
a shovel of salt.
But for these people, the young ones, they're taking these things rather seriously.
And that's scary as far as I'm concerned.
But I do subscribe to Maxim.
There's no smoke without fire.
Well, yeah.
So, taking a pinch of salt, but it's an indication of...
Okay, let's put it this way.
There's no perfect job anyway.
There's no perfect company.
There's no perfect job.
Well, why don't we just put it this way.
There's no, there is maybe perhaps a lack of resilience today in the workforce.
There is.
I agree.
I mean, we can always say, yeah, people leave their jobs because they're their bosses, you
know, about wages and a myriad of other things.
But at the end of the day, flip side is that how resilient is this person to, isn't it?
Or how resilient is this generation of Gen Z?
Now we're going there.
Now we're going to go there.
Now we're going to go there, which leads me to my next question.
Yeah.
What is lacking amongst today's workers in the labor force?
Do you expect better productivity or now that you mentioned this?
You see, that's funny, you see.
As much as we poop on Gen Zers and millennials, right?
No, no, no, no, no, not pooping on them.
We're just talking.
No, no, no.
I mean, in general, in general.
I'm telling you, a lot of people are going to be fucking flaming us.
But I'm telling you why, why.
As much as we poop about them, okay.
When we started our work, the baby poofers were pooping on us.
You stupid idiots, you young ass.
So my first job was in Shell, right?
Yeah.
My boss, old timer.
I still remember the first orientation I had with him.
You young graduates, huh?
You think you know everything, huh?
You think you can change the world, huh?
I tell you, you cannot.
Okay.
This is the way it is.
Okay.
You, yeah.
Basically, he had a term for us.
Last time was no Gen X, Gen Y.
He just called us young farts.
You young farts think you know everything.
Okay.
And I always have a good laugh about it because whenever I turn to a Gen Zer and I start thinking,
you know, every generation poops on the next.
So likewise, the big joke now is this.
Gen Z was put on us to annoy the millennials who were annoying the Gen Xers.
Guess what, man?
You and me, the X-Generals, right?
I'm sorry, but we have the millennials and the Gen Zers that are annoying us.
And as much as we are annoyed by the Gen Zers, we are annoying the Gen Zers as well.
Well, yeah.
I mean, yeah.
Yeah.
But I get even more particularly annoyed when you call me a boomer when I'm actually not a boomer.
You know what I mean?
Because boomers actually belong to our parents, actually.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
These people are getting it fucking wrong.
So if you ask me what's missing in this Gen Z, on one hand, I like to say,
publicly, we cannot broad brush everybody because they're always outliers.
So it's not fair.
I think being resilient is a skill that needs to be learned a bit more.
Yeah.
Be resilient.
Starting from school.
No, starting from parents.
Thank you very much.
Parents.
We are parents, we know.
I am the biggest, most guilty person for being helicoptering my kids, for being a helicopter parent.
Those that are, you know, so I'm one of those.
Really?
It's terrible.
I actually admit that.
I admit it.
Okay.
So right now I'm trying to...
What the fuck?
It's terrible.
Okay, I'm not...
You know it's terrible yet.
So it's, okay, example.
Yeah.
So for, it's, there's so many examples.
So it's like kids want to go to the playground.
Yeah.
Say, eh, okay, but let me...
So you see in the playground.
No, that's not helicoptering.
No, no, no.
You see the Ang Mo kids.
Yeah.
Okay.
They fall down.
They fall down and the parents just reading.
Get up.
They don't care.
Get up.
Yeah, but that's not really helicoptering.
Let me give you worse examples.
Oh.
You know what really gets on my tits.
Okay.
Oh gosh.
When my boy was in primary school, there was a vending machine selling soft drinks.
Fucking parents.
Logic complaint.
A petition to the school to have it removed because it's sugary drinks.
Okay.
And I'm thinking to myself, what the fuck's wrong with you people, man?
Do you really think your kid's going to get childhood diabetes?
You know?
And then if you want, you're missing an opportunity, missing an opportunity for proper parenting
for you to tell, teach them to resist.
Yeah.
And tell them you can only have this once a week or whatever.
Yeah.
Right?
And have them learn some self-discipline instead of taking something away and being
a demanding, piss-ass, real asshole of a parent to schools.
Right?
I actually went in the opposite direction.
I went, why did you do it?
Right?
And then recently, recently, there's been this hullabaloo in my, in the secondary school
my boy is in.
I won't mention, I mean, people who watch the show would know.
But anyway, and it's about, in the past, the school authorities were pretty good about
this.
They were saying, you know, these guys are going to learn to grow up.
We've allowed, we're allowing them to bring their handphones into school, but they can't
use it during class.
They can use it during recess or in between classes or whatever.
We get to learn to be adults, right?
But no, you have a bunch of idiotic parents who come in and complain, what kind of school
is this?
You allowed the handphone, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
They're not socializing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
To me, in my head, it's this, you know.
One makes you think that this digital generation will be able to appreciate the fact that you
take this away from them.
Number one.
Number two, this thing about digital addiction, addiction to the handphone and blah, blah,
blah, that's your job, not the fucking school's job.
They're not making it difficult for you.
It's the parents.
Exactly.
The third thing is this.
What makes you think they're not socializing with their, through their devices?
We socialized differently before.
That's true.
We socialized differently this way.
That's true.
Right?
So what makes us think that they're not?
And then on top of that, you're going to have them be left behind in the digital future?
If that's the case, why don't you fucking stop using your phone?
Oh, our kids are not mature enough.
Then now you're blaming nature.
Have you ever heard about nurture?
Don't you want to nurture them instead?
But you fucking blame nature.
Ding-bats!
And I live, when you go out for dinner, and you see the next table, the dining table,
everyone's on the phone.
Yeah.
No, no, no.
Look, listen.
And it's like the social interaction.
No, no.
I know.
You see, that's the thing.
If that happens in your family, and the guys on, your kids are on the phone, and everyone
else is also on the phone, during dinner and the one's interacting, that's wrong.
I am saying this.
This is your opportunity then to be a good parent and say, guys, put the devices down.
Let's talk.
Let's have a good time.
Let's laugh.
Teachable moments.
Exactly.
These are teachable moments, right?
And then they know that during these moments is family time.
It's family time.
I am not saying that the device is entirely a good thing, but I am also not saying that
it's entirely a bad thing.
Yeah, that's right.
Because these are moments that you would see as an opportunity to be, to exercise some
good parenting and to raise your kid.
But you don't have those opportunities.
What are you there for?
You're just a fucking shadow in the corner of the house.
So, talking about helicoptering the kids, right?
I still think that Singaporeans are not as bad as the Americans yet.
So, I think it's still quite okay.
The Americans know they get merit prizes for turning up, things like this.
And it reflects now, and you see the universities in the US, they're a bunch of babies.
Yeah, but workism is the worst thing in America, worse than Singapore.
I agree with you.
But here's the problem, man.
We're going to get there and we're going to get there fast.
I think so too.
It's very simple.
You just take a look at linguistics, okay?
You take a look at how people speak today.
I keep saying this.
I've said this before.
I sound like a fucking parrot on my show.
I have to use this example.
This is one fine example.
Language is Americanized.
Root all of a sudden becomes route.
I'm going to take that route and go this route and go...
But you understand me well.
That's not the point.
The point is just because, you know, two does not make a right.
It's wrong, right?
I mean, at the end of the day, it's root.
And this is the right way to say it.
You don't say route, isn't it?
So this is just one example.
And then the beginning of every sentence with the fucking word like.
Like, you know, like, you know, like, you know.
I mean, where the fuck did it come from?
Fucking California.
That's a very good accent, right?
Yeah.
So it's like...
It's a very good like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, whatever.
Like, you know, like, you know.
So, you know, when we think about all these little things,
you guys crept in and it's going to be worse.
It's going to get worse.
If it's a little bit, it's okay.
But some people just fake it all the way.
I know what...
Not guess my goat.
Yeah.
People who go overseas for one week, two weeks,
and they come back and they speak with the accent.
Speak with the accent.
I want to see people go away to Denmark and come back with that accent.
I challenge that.
You know, it's freaking fake assholes.
We see a lot of that.
Yeah, but now that we're talking about this generation, man,
and I know on your own show, right, you did talk about this.
And it's an eight-frickin' minute long video, but I've got it condensed down.
I didn't really take away a lot so that the context of it is still there.
Let's talk about this ranting chick.
Okay, Kai.
Oh, here we go.
Oh, there you go.
There you go.
Hey, Brittany.
Hi.
Yes, I'm so sorry.
My name's Rosie.
I'm just joining the call.
Nice to meet you.
I'm on the HR team.
Hi, Brittany.
Hi.
Thanks for meeting with me and Rosie.
We have an important meeting today.
We've finished our evaluations of 2023 performance.
This is where you've not met CLAFLER expectations for performance.
We've decided to partner with you.
Yeah, I'm going to stop right there.
Sure.
I'm going to stop right there.
I've been on a three-month ramp, and then it was three weeks of December,
and then a week of Christmas, and then here we are.
I have had the highest activity amongst my team since I've started.
I have had three contracts out, done a really great job managing my deals up
until the very end that decided not to close last minute.
So I don't think that that makes a lot of sense for me in my CLAFLER journey
here so far.
Also, every single one-on-one I've had with my manager,
every conversation I've had with him, he has been giving me nothing,
but I am doing a great job.
I have had great activity.
I have really great meetings.
I'm picking up the products very quickly, and things have been going really,
really well.
I make really great relationships with my clients.
So I disagree that my performance hasn't been...
I haven't met performance expectations.
I certainly have, just because I haven't closed anything officially.
Also, why are you doing this and not my manager?
We've never met, so this seems a little odd that my manager has no idea that
this has been happening, and the director has no idea that this has been
happening.
So I'm just definitely confused, and I would love an explanation that makes
sense.
Just for clarification, you are not being singled out in this.
Your peers are also being collectively assessed on performance.
This is a collective calibration for CLAFLER, so I just want to clarify that
piece.
I won't be able to add any kind of specifics on numbers or...
Wait, yeah, no.
Can you explain for me why Brittany Peach is getting let go?
I won't be able to go into specifics for numbers.
Wait, why though?
I just started.
I've been working extremely hard just because I haven't closed anything that
has nothing to do with my performance on a three-month ramp with just one
month with two major holidays in the middle.
I don't think that has anything to do with why I should be let go, if that
makes sense.
So I really need an answer and an explanation as to why Brittany Peach is
getting let go, not why CLAFLER decided to hire too many people and are now
actually realizing that they can't afford this many people, and they're
letting that go.
If that's the real answer, I would rather just you tell me that instead of
making up some bullshit and telling me that right before I lose my job from
someone that I've never met before, if you can respect that.
Yeah, I can totally respect that, and I don't think Dom or myself today is
going to give you any clarity or answers that's going to meet the expectations
that you're communicating to us, Brittany.
So I can't speak to...
So am I getting let go for no reason, if you guys can't give me a reason?
I'm happy to follow up with you separately to give you the data that was
calibrated.
I need to speak with revenue leadership specifically to see if we can get that
for you, but Dom and I cannot have that kind of meeting.
Can you share that with me now?
I cannot share that with you right now, unfortunately.
Knowing what's been happening with my peers and how extremely frustrated and
upset everyone is, I know you guys must not be able to understand that given
the positions that you are in, and it must be very easy for you to just have
these little 10-minute, 15-minute meetings, tell someone that they're fired,
completely wreck their whole life, and then that's it with no explanation.
That's extremely traumatizing for people, if you can imagine that, and I don't
think that this is...
It's just very, very shocking, very, very shocking.
I have really given my whole energy and life over the last four months to this
job, and to be let go for no reason is a huge slap in the face from a company
that I really wanted to believe in.
Despite constant positive praise from my manager, great meetings that I'm
having, the amount of activity that I have has all been positive.
I have not received any negative inclination.
I have not been put on a performance improvement plan, nothing.
I cannot speak to what your manager has communicated to you directly.
But that should be the indication of...
You're letting go for performance based on your attainment and leading
indicators of data.
That is the rationale.
But I've been here for only a month after ramping, and that was during a
holiday, so I don't understand what those...
Can you explain what those performance metrics are, or is that just like a
vague term to give to everyone that you're speaking to today?
I'll say that the performance indicators and performance metrics are...
Well, they are...
We're not able to go into specifics, and there's no situation where we will be
able to go into specifics.
Do you guys even know?
Do you guys even know who you're talking to each day?
Every single 10, 15 minutes, do you guys even know who you're talking to?
Why you're letting these people go when you don't even understand the kind of
work and everything that they've put in?
I hear you from what you're saying.
It just doesn't make any sense that you guys have still not been able to give
me a reason why I'm being let go.
Okay.
All right, man.
It's gone viral.
Yeah.
It's gone crazy viral.
Yeah.
So let's talk about this girl.
So what's your take?
My take is, okay, number one, it's stupid to film and then release.
Very.
Okay.
Because, you know, will you hire her?
No.
No, I wouldn't touch her with a 10 foot pole.
No way.
So she's just damaged your own brand.
Yep.
But that aside, you can record it as is your right.
You can keep it if you want to complain to the authorities or to hire ups in HR
or whatever it is, you can do it.
It's all in your right.
Letting it go like that, I think it's a poor decision.
Yeah.
No one's ever going to hire.
Yeah.
But if you look at how badly the messaging was by HR, even this is HR.
I know when there are two faces, people whom she had never met before telling her you
lost the job, right?
Yeah.
The first thing that comes to mind was, remember Josh Clooney in that movie, Up in the Air?
Yeah.
It's basically, it feels like it was a hired hit.
Hired someone outside of Fernandes to let you go.
Yeah.
But the manager had no role in it.
Yeah.
And I don't know whether the manager either didn't know about it or the manager knew about
it, but said, I got no guts.
Why not you go and...
Yeah.
So a lot of questions, but HR's fault here is that if you want to terminate someone on
the basis of performance, you jolly well have the stats there.
And explain it.
Or even if you want to fire someone for non-performance, you better put the person on a performance
improvement plan three months before, make sure you give them a fighting chance.
Right.
This was very poorly executed.
So bad behavior, poor behavior on both sides.
On both sides.
Yeah.
And it's instructive for our listeners out there who are tempted to record and boast
it up.
Don't do it.
Okay.
It's suicidal, right?
It's a serious suicide.
The second thing is for HR or business leaders out there who are watching.
These notification meetings require training.
Right.
Okay.
How to handle when a person gets angry.
What do you do when a person cries?
Yeah.
So there are nuances involved.
There are strategies involved.
We provide training for that.
Oh, you do?
We do.
We provide training for that because you never know.
So I attended a notification.
These are called notification meetings when someone's being retrenched.
Right.
So for her, in that case, she was performance fired or lack thereof, lack of performance
firing.
But there was a case where I was pulled in because we provide career coaching for those
who got retrenched.
Right.
So I was pulled in one day.
A client told me, hey, tomorrow, it's Saturday morning, you know, can you come at 9 a.m.
because we're letting someone go.
He's very senior.
Okay.
So he's an American guy, a CFO.
Yeah.
And he's got a bad temper.
Right.
He's got a bad temper.
Okay.
So we do not know how to handle him.
We're going to notify him, but we want you in the next room to talk to him, calm him
down, and show him and provide him with the CareerCast support, which is called Outplacement.
So I was there.
I was like, what do you mean by he's got a bad temper?
Oh, he's been known to slam the table, throw chairs.
And you're letting him go.
And he said, yeah.
HR said, yes.
And so I was in the next room.
So they notified him at 9.
At 9.15, he came over to my room when I was there.
Big guy, almost your size.
Okay.
Tough guy.
He came in, stared at me, glared at me.
Who are you?
So I'm here to provide you with your next moves in terms of your career support.
Walked up to me, plunked himself down.
I was like, oh, shit, he's going to kill me.
Yeah.
Because he's going to think I'm the George Clooney.
He sat down.
He started crying.
Oh dear.
He was in a company for 15 years and just unceremoniously let him go.
He started crying.
He started bawling like a baby.
And I was totally unexpected.
And the worst thing was it was a Saturday morning.
I did not bring my business back.
I only brought my weekend back, which was kind of anyway.
And he was crying and I wasn't prepared.
So I reached in and took a tissue paper for him.
Right.
But unfortunately it was a Hello Kitty.
A true paper.
For my daughter's Hello Kitty.
I was like, it's the only thing I had here.
So I gave it to him and I said, you want to use this?
And he burst out laughing.
Hello Kitty.
Do I look so pathetic?
You got to show me your paper.
Hello Kitty.
And he burst out laughing.
And then it was okay.
Then I spoke to him.
But sometimes these sort of things, if you don't have the training, it gets nasty very quickly.
So I've seen events where the CHRO flies in overnight.
Tells the whole group.
But shutting down the office.
One week before Christmas.
Fucked.
Yeah.
And I literally saw tables being banged, chairs being flipped.
Yeah.
They were just angry because two weeks before the CEO flew in and said, we're going to expand
Southeast Asia.
We're going to make this the core of the business.
And then two weeks later, the CHRO comes in and says we're shutting down the business now.
So this was very badly planned.
Yeah.
I think so too.
And in the end, it just shows very bad.
A lot of people will actually be looking at that girl and saying a lot of negative things
about her.
I agree.
Yeah.
Of course, naturally she's guilty of a lot of things.
But the way it was executed was bad.
But I want to say this.
What I really picked up from that video.
You worked for about three months, four months, and you said that you see a good of your clients,
activity level is high, and you have no closes.
Yeah.
Right?
Now three, four months and you don't have a close.
To me, that's not good at all.
That's not good.
Yeah.
People can pull out.
Then you talk about, yeah, plus there were two holidays.
Let's put it this way.
Excuse us, right?
Yeah.
Because even if it was fucking Christmas, man, and you know that you're shit, right?
Yeah.
You better work through fucking Christmas.
You know what I mean?
That's my attitude.
I mean, I'm sorry, but you have to plan your time and get it done.
I agree.
No excuses.
Yeah.
And she shouldn't be surprised.
Yeah.
Well, at the end of it, what really was interesting was the CEO came up and he made a very long
post.
He said that-
For this?
For this event.
Okay, okay, okay.
So he said that it was poorly executed.
HR could have done it better.
Yeah.
But they only let go about 20 out of the thousand people.
So it's not a lot.
Yeah.
And it's performance-based.
It's not performance-based.
It is performance-based.
It's not a headcount reduction.
Yeah.
So, and it was very professionally written.
Right.
And I think he came out of it PR-wise.
Yeah.
Looking good.
Yeah.
And made her look bad.
Yeah.
Because this girl is right now, let me tell you something.
There's no amount of PR I can help you at this moment.
Yeah.
So moral of the story is don't air your dirty laundry like that.
Yeah.
Unless it's a nice little tiny thong, then fine.
No comments.
What a-
Moving on.
This is not radio, man.
Don't worry about it.
What's your idea of the ideal employer?
I think someone who gives, okay, ideal boss.
Yeah.
Ideal boss.
Now someone who gives you enough space and enough knowledge and enough support to do
what you're supposed to do.
Okay.
Leaves you alone and ultimately gives you, I had a boss once in GE Plastics and he said,
I'll give you as much rope as you want.
Mm-hmm.
Either to be successful or to hang yourself with.
Okay.
So he lets us, so a boss should be an enabler.
Yeah.
Rather than someone who's going to come in and bunk you and guide you.
But it's hard.
It's hard to be a boss.
Yeah.
It's hard to be a boss.
I have difficulties being a boss.
I can manage people because I'm a bit too lax.
Okay.
I'm a bit too relaxed.
I'm a bit too-
You're damn funny, you know.
First you tell me I'm a helicopter parent.
No, me.
We shouldn't have this kind of, he's parenting but I'm a helicopter parent.
You know I'm an ideal boss but I'm not.
I'm not the ideal boss.
I'm too lax.
So that's why-
Okay, okay.
At least you're honest, man.
That's why, okay, when I work with people, I make sure that they are mature.
Right.
That no one needs to be done.
Right.
I don't have to babysit them.
Right.
So it's been difficult to get people like that nowadays.
But ideally, you know, if you've got- and one thing I must say to all listeners out there,
there's no perfect boss.
Yeah.
Likewise, you're not a perfect worker either.
Yeah.
And what you do when the boss is not perfect, you tolerate.
Okay.
Since you answered that, you answer, you tolerate.
Yeah.
But also vice versa, the boss has to tolerate you too.
But that's the question, you know.
Yeah.
So there's no such thing called an ideal boss actually.
There's no such thing called an ideal employee.
Yeah.
And there's no such thing called a perfect job either.
Because no one can be a robot, isn't it?
So there's no perfection in this world.
Yeah.
So shut up and get your job done.
One person at a time.
Yeah.
Just two more questions, man.
Okay.
Very quickly.
Okay.
I know you're pressed for time as well.
So let me just talk about this one.
You know, my favorite pet subject for this vertical, I love my job.
Yeah.
It's about mid-career change.
An older worker.
Okay.
What should an older worker consider before taking the plunge?
Say, your career strategist, right?
Yeah.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Use me as an example.
Strategize me.
Okay.
Okay, hang on, hang on.
So in the interest of time, because you can't go through the whole gamut of everything.
I'm pretty sure there's going to be a whole stretch of things.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, I know.
So let's just work on it this way, okay?
That's right.
So if you ask me or discourage me, would you do it?
Listen what?
To make a move?
Yeah.
Well, I think you should.
You're telling me that I should?
Yeah, I mean, okay.
You're, you're, you're, I think for anyone who's at what we call a career crossroad.
I'm coming 54 years old, man, dude.
It's young.
It's not 54.
It's 54 years young, not old.
Oh, say.
Yeah.
Come on, man.
It's the perspective.
Okay.
Okay?
You're at a sweet spot now, as I said before, you know, there's an old joke where when you're
young, you've got money and energy, but you've got time and energy, but no money.
And then when you're working really hard, you've got money, you've got energy, but you've
got no time.
And then when you're retired, old, you've got time, you've got money, but no energy.
Right now, you're at this point where you have money, time and energy, okay?
In varying amounts.
I'm so fucked.
But you are at a space where, and many of our listeners, if you look at the upside of
things, okay?
You're at a space where it's not really that bad.
Okay?
And no one's too old.
We have successfully helped even 58 year olds, 74 year olds land jobs.
I'm not kidding you.
It may not be a full-time job job.
Right, right.
But gigs, consultancies, full-time job.
No, shit.
One of my clients was 56, banking, and he quit his...
He was retrenched.
He went to another generic career coach and they told him...
I'm not going to mention names because it's...
Generic career coach.
Generic coach.
Anyway, it was a free service, okay?
So, offered by a free organization.
Anyway, I'm not going to mention names.
And they told him, 56, you're screwed basically.
Okay.
Okay?
And he was earning about $400,000 as a banker.
Then you want to take a pay cut.
Maybe we have an opportunity here in Watson's for you to do as a sales promoter.
And he was so depressed and he came to us and I said, rubbish, rubbish.
You want to do it?
I would take a long walk out of a short balcony if any fucker tells me that.
Yeah, isn't it?
Don't get me wrong.
We're not insulting the job.
No, no, no.
We just are based on this individual person and what he's been through throughout his
entire career.
So, I said no.
So, we worked with him and he landed a job within two months.
Right.
And he got a salary increase.
So, if you need to know your value and your wealth and where you're good at.
So, once again, if you have been curating your career well and you know what you're
good at and what, so basically there are three things.
Number one, what you're good at, no one else can do.
Right.
And it must be something that you enjoy doing because it's something you're good at and
you don't like doing.
Right.
You could do more of it.
Yeah, it pays the bills, but it's going to eat you up and kill you inside.
So, you're going to find what you're good at, what you enjoy doing and if it pays the
bills.
Okay.
So, like for myself, I love selling.
You know, I say I love selling.
I love talking to people.
I am so passionate about careers.
I love helping people and that's what I'm good at.
That's what I love doing.
And I've managed to find a niche where it pays the bills.
Right.
So, that's where, that's how I pivoted.
Okay.
And for someone like yourself or anyone out there, if you want to do a mid-career switch,
a lot of people have this misconception where a mid-career switch means I drop everything,
I go be a kindergarten teacher.
Okay.
Total switch, no.
Find adjacencies.
Like what, like this is an adjacency for you.
See, it's an extension.
Now, it's got a video.
So, now you've got all the fun toys like this and everything and you enjoy doing it.
Now the question is monetization.
So, there's another topic for another time.
Yeah.
But you're getting there.
I hope so.
I really hope so.
So, that's why a mid-career switch, you're never too late for it, but you must have the
strategy to do it.
And adjacencies, look for adjacencies.
Look for skills adjacencies.
Look for industry adjacencies.
So, like instead of just on radio, you go radio, you go to TV or go into broadcasting.
If you're in industry like in banking, maybe you want to pivot into finance.
If you're in sales, maybe you want to pivot into marketing or sales operations or online
sales.
Find that pivot point.
Or coaching or training set in sales and stuff like that.
Yeah, exactly.
So, it's never too old to do a career pivot if you plan properly and you have a good career
strategy.
You said this word so many times in the course of giving me this advice and that word would
be enjoying it.
Yesterday, I had Mr. X here in the studio, he used that word a lot too.
You know, enjoying it, enjoying it, enjoying it.
I picked that up.
My takeaway was that, you know, and that episode of course is aired before this one.
Yeah.
So, which leads me to this last question, very last question.
You have two options here.
Two options here, okay?
Multiple choice.
Multiple choice, huh?
A, chase after your dream, do what you love regardless of the amount of pay or stability.
Or B, get a degree, get a job, work and earn money, get married, buy a home, have kids,
soon, soon, like.
Okay.
What would you say would be the best advice given these two options?
What stage is this person at?
Is he like a fresh graduate?
Fresh grad or young worker?
Young worker.
Yeah.
My advice is B, then A.
Wow.
Yeah.
Get a degree, get a job, work and earn money, get married, buy a home, have kids, soon,
soon, like.
Then you want when everything is all done.
If you are so inclined to be a family man.
Okay.
If you're not, if you're a swinging single and you don't give a hoot about what's going
on.
Yeah.
Or if you have a trust fund, then A will be good.
Okay, okay.
Fuck the trust fund.
Let's talk about the swinging single.
Then.
A young person, okay?
Since you've mentioned that, it's the last question, but since you mentioned that, I
can't help you.
I'm gonna ask.
Go for it.
If you said swinging single, okay, to all the single people out there, your fresh grad,
let's say for example, hypothetically, you came out, you're a fresh grad, right?
What should be important?
Would it be career first and then marriage?
I think career first.
Career first, right?
Yeah, but it's not binary.
Okay.
You can do it, pursue both at the same time.
Okay.
But you see, that's where it gets interesting.
So if you're a swinging single and you tell yourself, I'm gonna get married, say in the
next 10 to 15 years, okay?
Can I then opt to do option A?
Where I chase after a dream.
I do what I love regardless of the amount of pay and stability.
So, and the strategy changes.
So I have this friend of mine, career person all the way, she's 42, single.
And she met the man of her dreams.
She married.
By the time she had a huge fun.
Of course.
Right?
Quit the job.
Now her boy is like about seven years old now.
Full-time mom.
Yeah.
And enjoying motherhood, got the money stashed aside.
Yeah.
And then she said that she's happy.
So whatever makes you happy, right?
But the reality is in Singapore now it's not cheap.
Fuck me.
You need money.
Okay.
It's like, I went to the hawker center.
I ordered the mee kia.
Yeah.
It came and I said, I ordered an adult meal, not a kid's meal.
Because it was so shrinkflation.
It was like one small portion was like half a piece.
Shrinkflation.
I was like, is this a kid's meal?
It's a kid's meal.
You know, I don't blame these guys.
You know, actually, if you think about it, again, I'm a parent.
You said shrinkflation, you know, powers that be like to use the term inflation, right?
I just say one fucking thing.
The problem with the economy today is caused by solely, in my opinion, landlords.
Simple as that.
I agree.
You know, it is completely that, man.
I agree.
You know, it's not the stall owner.
You know who the landlords will blame?
Yeah, they will blame.
Blame the bank.
Yeah.
Because interest rates are high.
Yeah.
And the buck goes on.
Yeah.
But no, I agree.
The landlords.
To me right now, it's more driven by greed than anything else.
It is.
And well, that's another story for another day.
And interestingly, I was watching YouTube yesterday and there was a study out that they
calculated the causes of inflation in the US and inflation caused by prices going up,
by big corporates, right?
Right.
And they calculated that the price corporate sells, I mean, the inflation and corporate
say, it's not due to inflation.
It's because they want to.
They're selling it.
They're making more profits.
Right.
So inflation in the US, a lot of it is due to corporate greed, which is what, to your
point.
Yeah.
To your point.
Yeah.
It is corporate greed.
And then you have inflation.
I mean, this is something that's been going on for ages.
Right?
But right now, when I look at the little guy, the little guy has really impacted quite a
lot.
And now it's crept into our households.
That's why JB, the queue to get into JB is always so bloody long.
Not because people are going on a freaking vacation or staycation, but because they're
going to the buy groceries, man.
Yeah.
Tile paper.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, not just Singapore.
Guilty as charged.
It's not just Singapore.
I think the toilet paper phenomenon is a worldwide phenomenon, right?
I mean, when the COVID thing started, right?
Everyone in the world was...
First thing to empty up would be the freaking toilet rolls, right?
But I just feel that you're right.
You know, I mean, we've got to think about how we can survive here.
So a lot of people now work in their full-time jobs and then they also get into the gig economy,
you know, because we don't have much of a freaking choice.
Yeah.
I really don't know what to think anymore, you know, when it comes to...
So my advice I give to younger folks is make as much as you can, save as much as you can,
and give as much as you can.
So which is actually a...
Give in terms of what?
Money, time, not just money, but time as well.
I was thinking taxes.
Okay.
Taxes.
No, you pay what's needed.
So which is a very methodistic...
It was a Wesleyan thinking, make as much as you can, give as much as you can.
John Wesley thinking.
So I agree, make, earn as much as you can, you know, but save it.
Save as much as you can because the best gift you can give yourself...
Is to pay yourself.
20 years time, okay, is to have a freedom fund where it's like...
And I'm telling the younger guys, look, if you just one month, you just cut back on the
stupid frappuccinos, you have two frappuccinos a day, okay, you're going to have 1,000 a
month, you're going to have 10,000 a year, okay, in the next 20 years, you've got $200,000.
The best gift you can give yourself then is that $200,000 and don't buy that stupid car
with $130,000.
Wait, wait, wait, how the fuck did you come up with the frappuccino thing?
I mean, seriously, are people really having a frappuccino a day?
They're having two frappuccinos a day or two coffees a day.
One coffee is about $6.
I mean, you...
I'm not kidding you.
The young kids...
But you're talking about a cafe standard coffee.
Yeah.
$6, two coffees a day.
Instead of a fucking coffee shop.
Yeah.
Or your Alcipo here uses my...
I use my three in one.
So same caffeine, a bigger kick even.
You know, you've got...
Just think about...
Just do the quick math, okay?
You blow 10 bucks a day.
You're basically blowing 200 a month.
You're blowing...
In addition to gym memberships or gyms that you don't use...
People know everyone's like you, you know, you make the gym membership work.
I see your photos.
I mean, I have to make gym membership work.
I'm such a scooch.
Some people, they buy the gym membership, they don't use it.
They get the country club, they don't use it.
So if you...
And there's a movement called the fire movement.
The financial independence, you retire early movement.
Basically says save all your money, okay?
Build up that freedom fund.
Yeah.
So that when you're 40, you're sitting on a nice tidy sum of money.
Yeah.
If your boss tells you...
To f off.
You...
Say it.
If you want to say it, you will just not radio.
I'm a good boy.
Okay.
So...
I'm asking.
So...
So it's all a matter of having that fund.
Yeah.
The freedom fund.
Yeah.
That F-O fund.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
The fuck off fund.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Say it.
I'm a good boy.
It's a fuck off fund, Adrian.
You say it, so I dare you to say it.
So anyway, that's where you can tell your boss.
Yeah.
So that's why the best advice I can give anyone is the best gift you can give yourself in 20
years time is that freedom fund.
Yeah.
And then you have independence to start your own business or do whatever you want.
But it all starts today.
Yeah.
And it builds up and you're all shocked.
Sometimes I think right now, you know, to build it...
To start building your dreams, start in your 50s.
In these days.
Yeah.
You've got to start building...
So if you've got a dream that you've had all your life...
Yeah.
Maybe it'd be a good idea, since you're working, living in this place, is to start building
your dreams when you're 50 onwards, you know?
And to me, it's sad.
Why?
It's sad.
Why?
It's sad.
I mean, when you have a dream, the idea is when you're young, in my opinion, and you're
young and you're sprightly, you've got all the fucking energy in the world, you may be
stupid, but if you can accept the fact that you fall down flat in your face, you must
just get up again, you learn your lessons, it's more fun that way.
You know?
It hurts when you're there, but it's...
It hurts when you're there, but when you look back, right?
Yeah, I said wow.
I did all that.
And that's interesting because people ask me why did I start a business?
And I say that, you know...
Which one, the bones business?
All of them, all of them.
Okay.
Especially this one.
Why did I quit corporate?
And I said, because I saw the opportunity and I don't want to one day look back and
go like, oh yeah, I should have done it, but I didn't do it.
Yeah, because the journey matters the most, you know?
It's a journey.
So in 2001, 2002, I had this great idea for group buying, where you sign up an organization,
you know, and then you get people to buy, then you issue off, which was basically the...
What's that online portal?
Which one?
Shopee?
What's that Shopee?
Lozada?
No, shucks, I'm getting old.
Which was the coupon, Groupon.
Groupon, Groupon.
That's a really long time ago.
So I had the idea for that and I was talking to some friends and they were saying, yeah,
I know, stupid idea.
Who would want to buy Groupon, do business?
Until I saw one of the local companies who did it and sold off to Groupon for that bazillion
dollars.
I could have done that.
So that's why whenever I have a business idea, I'll just tell myself, I'm going to give it
a shot, let's give it a go.
I don't want to sit down and go, I could have been that guy.
So... Yeah, when you have something, do it.
For example, this podcast here, the one that you're here with me now, it's been mooted
to me like freaking 10 years ago.
The podcast has been around a long time.
Oh yeah, actually they have.
Yeah, you know, and especially in Apple, right?
In iTunes way back when.
Now people have told me, Chris, why didn't you start your own podcast?
Chris, why didn't you start your own podcast?
And I've put this off for so long.
And this studio took me what?
Two years, you know, to conceptualize, think it through, really driving somehow, building
the funds.
Two years and one pandemic.
You're right.
You know, and to have this space, you know, which I can call my own, which I'm very glad
I have.
But it's always the journey that is the most important.
And speaking of journey, man, I mean, I keep journeying on all the time when I do my podcast.
And I cannot forget in that journey to talk about this because, and you know something,
Adrian, you got to indulge on one of these, man.
Please go and take a munch.
I have done this before.
It's lovely.
It's absolutely brilliant, right?
It's crispy on the outside and nice soft.
Yeah, fluffy as hell, man.
The crispiest, fluffiest.
You hear that?
Hear that?
This is the chomping of the number one prawn vade in the land and it's sponsored by Gordon's
Vade.
You can see the, it's on screen right now.
Go to gordonvade.com or you can WhatsApp the number that's there.
Look for a guy named Vijay, man.
I mean, this guy will be happy to help you.
And really, I tell you, you ain't had vade until you've had this one.
It is mamma mia.
And with me today again has been Adrian Chu and he is from Career Agility International
and it's going to be flashed up right now.
There you go.
And no, I'm not being paid to do this, but I like to do this for my guests who would
like to spend time with me for my shoots and this is for you, man.
Right?
There you go.
So if you are looking for help, you need someone to strategize your way through your career
or your careers, please give them a call and look this man up.
And we promise you will not be selling you bones.
Thanks for being here, man.
It's been real fun.
Pleasure.
I've been looking for this for a very long time and you know, I had a great time with
you.
I'm glad.
I hope you had fun.
Yeah.
So just let me know when the next one is.
Can.
On.
Deal.
Okay.
Season four.
So hit the subscribe button if you haven't done so on YouTube and also please also smack
that bell button for notifications.
Okay.
Thanks for watching everyone.
Stay safe.
Yeah.
And remember, work your ass off and don't shit your future up.
Bye bye.