There have been some documentaries on the life of the man, Mr Lee Kuan Yew.
Why didn't you guys think of doing one for him instead of for Dr Goh Keng Swee?
Because he's overdone.
Oh, there's so many books on him.
Yeah, there's so many books on him, so it's like trying to fry a leftover egg that's been fried many other times before.
Wait!
Ooh!
It's been 12, or wrong, 11 episodes.
Today is the 12th episode and the final, the finale episode for the Chris Hansen Conversation Season 2.
And it's going to be a blast, I can tell you that much, man.
You're not looking at my guests at this moment, and I will not show them yet.
I will tell you what it's all about today in a few minutes.
But before we proceed with the finale episode for the season, I have to do this.
Because in my hand, I've got, as usual, from dear old Vijay and the good people from Gordon's Vadas,
I got with me probably the fluffiest, crispiest prawn vadas in the damn land.
And you can see on screen, you can contact Gordon's Vadas.
You can WhatsApp at 877-0969.
Look for a guy named Vijay. He was formerly Mr. Singapore Manhattan, Manhattan, Singapore, 1970.
He's going to kill me for this shit.
But really, seriously, these are the best vadas you can find in the land, man.
Thank you again, Vijay. Thank you, Gordon's Vadas.
And back to the program.
I have with me two prolific gentlemen.
These are people that, you know, I always get so afraid to bring really, really bright, talented intellectuals into my studio, because I'm a dunce.
Oh, not at all.
No, it's true, man. It's true. It is true.
The last time, episode two for the season, I had Dr. Greedy Swee.
And oh, God, I tell you, I'm over my head, man.
But I'm happy to have you guys here.
OK, people, I've got in the studio with me.
I've got Felix Cheung.
You can switch the camera now.
OK, Felix Cheung.
And we have Chelsea Nan.
And let me tell you why they're here.
It's because they've just released the new graphic novel.
Check this one out.
Goh Keng Swee, a Singaporean for all seasons.
Felix Cheung is a renowned Singaporean author and poet.
He's known for his work in young adult fiction and poetry.
He's written two young adult fiction books, The Call from Crying House and his sequel, The Woman in the Last Carriage.
And I can go on and on and on about this guy.
Please do. Please do.
We have lots of time.
We really have a lot of time.
And on my left, I have Chia Sinan.
He's a former editorial cartoonist with the Straits Times.
He's a guy that produced a popular comic strip, The House of Limb, for eight years.
Eons ago. Eons ago.
But still, I remember The House of Limb, man.
I do. Yeah.
And cartoon strip Billy and Salty.
That's about environmental issues, right?
Yeah. Okay.
So I have two people, super talented people, came together and they came up with this book for Dr. Goh Keng Swee, or about Dr. Goh Keng Swee, Singaporean for all seasons.
I have questions for you guys.
Why?
Why? Good question.
Yeah. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why the inspiration to do something about a founding?
Can I call him a founding father?
He was one of the founding fathers.
Okay. One of our founding fathers. Why?
Okay. Maybe Sinan, you can start.
Well, I approached Felix with the idea first.
Because I had at least two or three ideas to, you know, I was hoping we could collaborate because I met him at the comic fair.
This was when? Last year.
I think October last year.
Yeah. So exactly a year ago.
Yeah. So I was thinking we could do something together and then I arranged a meeting. So I brought these two or three ideas. The first one he dismissed it.
Well, you dismissed it.
Dismissed it.
And the second one he jumped. This is the one, the Goh Keng Swee.
So amazing things happened at comic fairs.
Yeah.
Well, for me, I jumped at the idea of doing this book on Goh Keng Swee because firstly, I had never done a creative nonfiction book.
So it allowed me a kind of creative freedom to try something new, a different genre.
Plus, of course, I had great admiration for Dr. Goh.
He was one of the founding fathers and he was the guy who started the SAF from scratch, from nothing.
And then he also did other things like founded the SSO, started the idea for Sentosa, etc.
Say H.T.B. Aswad, right?
No.
No?
That was Limpin' Sun.
Oh, okay. See, I'm getting all my facts wrong.
Yeah, you need a brochure man.
I tell you.
General knowledge.
Now since, wow. That's why I said it's very scary to have two people like this in my studio on my show.
Because if you see, but curious.
Goh Keng Swee, you told me why.
But then again, in recent times, very recent times, even on Netflix besides CNA,
there have been some documentaries on the life of the man, Mr. Lee Kuan Yew.
Why didn't you guys think of doing one for him instead of for Dr. Goh Keng Swee?
Because it's overdone.
Oh, there's so many books on him.
Yeah, there's so many books on him. So it's like trying to fry a leftover egg that's been fried many other times before.
Wait, wait, wait. How long did it take you to do this? To come up with this graphic novel?
Well, I did about a month of research in December.
Right.
I did all the books I could about Dr. Goh and then probably another month to write the script.
Okay. So it was about a year ago, right?
So if it's taken a year, at that time, last year in 2022 December,
I don't think there was a forecast about this period right now, very recently,
that you have documentaries on Mr. Lee Kuan Yew on Netflix and on Channel News Asia.
So it wouldn't, I mean, it could have been that you would have done something on him instead of Dr. Goh.
Or he could have been on S. Rajaratnam.
Well, there were a couple of graphic novels already published on Mr. Lee.
So we didn't want to track the same territory.
Okay, okay.
There's at least a couple. There's one manga even on LK1.
Manga?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I'm not mistaken, a couple of years ago.
Okay. I know this, you know, I read your book.
Okay, this, guys, this is the book.
Okay. And thank you so much for the book and the autographs, really.
I mean, it's lovely, really. I mean, when I look at this, it's like, wow, this looks really cool, man.
The artwork is really, really cool.
It's a bit intense.
There you go. There you go. It's on the screen.
And then I read through this. And let me tell you, man, I need to ask you,
you know what fascinated me in the beginning?
When I opened this book and the story started like the opening sequence of a James Bond movie.
Yes.
Was that intentional?
Yes, yes, it was intentional.
It was intentional.
To grip the audience, the reader.
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool, man. Because it did get me, you know, hooked on it.
Okay, what happened next? Did he bail out?
And then what? And then the scene shot over to, segwayed over to 10 Downing Street.
Or was it 9 Downing Street?
No, it's not Downing Street.
It looked like 9. There was a number 9 there.
Ah, it's the Belk Graveyard. It's the Singapore High Com in London.
Ah, okay.
But the buildings all look the same.
They look the same. I thought it was Downing Street, man.
Okay, Felix, I need to ask you this. You're known for your poetry and your short stories.
Then you, as you said, this is something creative for you to do.
Yes.
And so you jumped onto this bandwagon to get it done, right?
So, being a person who is known for poetry and short stories, and then, I'm pretty sure that being new to this,
what were the challenges you faced, man, writing this?
Okay, prior to this I actually written a couple of...
Yeah, Sprawl.
God's Lonely Man and Eve and the Lost Ghost Family. Graphic novels, right?
Yes, graphic novels.
So, the main challenge for me was getting into the head, inside the head space of Dr. Goh.
So I started writing the script in the third person.
Because Sinan and I were very clear from the start,
we didn't want this to become another Wikipedia type of entry about Dr. Goh's life.
He did this in this year, he did this in that year. It was boring.
So we wanted a new approach. So I wanted to take a particular period of his life,
between 1959 and 1964, and use that particular period as a reflection of his growth as a politician.
Because from the research I gathered, he wasn't comfortable with being a politician.
So the quotes that I see inside this, can I call this, for the sake of brevity and convenience,
can I just call this a comic book?
Yes, of course.
What I read in this comic book, right, is like the quotes that I see in it, those were from you.
Those were not quotes you actually discovered or found through your research about Dr. Goh, King Sui.
I interspersed some real quotes from Dr. Goh with some fictional ones.
So it's a genre that we call creative non-fiction.
So in creative non-fiction, you're allowed to highlight certain emotional truths,
and then through the truths, emotional truths, you can create dialogue.
But it stays true to the spirit of the man, and stays true to the spirit of that particular incident.
You see what I mean?
Speculative fiction.
Okay, so basically, through all your research, you realize that this is probably,
the fictional part of it though, this is probably what he would be thinking,
what he would be saying to himself in his own self-thought or self-thinking.
And also the dialogue, the conversations that he had with his subordinates and other people like Lee Kuan Yew.
So after I've done the research, as I was mentioning earlier, I still couldn't get into the spirit of the man.
So I decided to write in his voice, through his point of view, and then it started clicking.
Did he really call Mr. Lee Harry?
Yes, and we verified that with Ms. Tan Sook San, who is the daughter-in-law of Dr. Goh.
Kishore provided some background.
So for example, we found out that Mr. Lee used to call Goh Keng Swee, Swee.
Oh, so that is true.
Yeah, that's true.
His friends as well.
So there were a lot of little details that we had to research into to find out certain things about,
some of the incidents portrayed in the book.
So we had to overhaul, change all the names.
Oh, so you did change some names?
What he was called, we would call him Kuan Yew or something, but that's not what they call him.
They call him Harry.
Yeah.
But since you said that about names, changing some of the names, there is something I'm curious about.
There's this guy, he was, that actually is my favorite part of the entire comping book.
This particular scene where he was interviewing for his personal aid.
Yeah, that's right.
I made it up.
You made it up?
It's all totally made up.
Well, that one's totally made up.
Yep.
Dang, you know why?
I wanted to ask you guys about this guy that he eventually hired, Hwang.
Yes.
Is that guy fictitious?
He's fictitious and he's a composite of different EDB officers.
Ah, because I wanted to ask you guys that question, I'm going to ask you guys this later, but since you raised it, so I might as well just bring this up.
Years ago in the 90s, I had the opportunity by chance at one of the more swanky members clubs on a Saturday afternoon,
I still remember that quite vividly, a gentleman I met at a bar inside that gentleman's club who eventually we had, we started having a chat.
And he was the personal aid to Dr. Goh.
Oh, okay.
Really?
Give me his name.
That's the thing.
I can't remember.
It was a long time ago, it was in the 90s.
I think it was probably 97, 98.
Oh, I would love to have interviewed him.
He was a slight built man, Chinese guy, quite, you know, on a Saturday afternoon, it's quite clear that he cares about how he looks in terms of, you know, dressed presentably,
sat on a armchair, legs crossed, very quiet man, soft spoken, and bespectacled.
Typical of all civil servant scholars.
No, but he was very measured in the way he spoke.
And then he mentioned about what he did and how exacting Dr. Goh was.
He was. Dr. Goh was very exacting.
And his staff were not terrified of him, but were in awe of this man, you know, and he was his personal aid.
Right? And the way he spoke, there was this very quiet, strong confidence in that man.
Maybe, I don't know, it seemed to me, the impression I had was that Dr. Goh's personality and character probably, you know, fused into the people that worked closely with him as well.
What is called the trickle down effect.
Yeah. Yeah. And it was pretty remarkable.
So when I was reading your comic book, I was going, hang on a second. It jogged a memory in me because I had this fortunate opportunity to have met this guy.
And I wish to goodness I could have, I could remember his name.
But I can't.
I hope the book will bring him.
Oh, I hope he's still around.
You know, at the time he was in his 50s, you know.
Right. His 90s.
Well, just after the mid 90s. Yeah. It's possible he's still around. It's possible he's still around.
So Sinan, how do you approach illustrating such a significant historical figure like Goh Keng Swee?
I was asking for all his photographs from Siokhsan. All the side views in the back. But she couldn't provide any so I had to do my own AI.
Your own AI. Okay. Must have been a very nervy affair.
Such an illustrious figure. And all the nuances that were shown. The expressions on his face.
So, you know, side profile. I have to do it myself.
Okay, but I just want to ask something about this part of the story guys where his car, when he was with his aide and his car broke down somewhere on the way to Jurong.
Right.
There was pictures as well.
Damn, bust by a freaking bubble.
We researched his car. We asked what he drove. The model and everything.
So this other guy that helped him along, this Wong character.
He's also fictitious.
Oh man, another bubble bust. Okay.
You can't really tell, well you can tell to some extent what is real. So there are historical events depicted in the book that are real. But in between these historical incidents, there are fictitious episodes that I hope will bring out Dr. Goh's personality.
So you're confident that though despite the fact that some of these portions inside this comic book is fictitious, right? But you're confident that how he managed these, though it's fiction, how he managed these characters for example.
Well these are anecdotes from the actual events that happened. We just have to put some drama into it. Much like what you see, like the crown and all that. So you base it on real life events.
But no, but the thing is, you said these are anecdotes of things that actually did happen. Like what? Let's hear it from you. What did you find out?
The training jet incident actually happened when he was...
No freaking way man.
Yeah, it was in the...
It was in the real incident.
Yeah, in the video clips.
So there was a Hunter jet.
Yes.
That crashed.
That crashed in the...
And the pilot bailed out.
When he was visiting the UK.
And Dr. Goh did visit the downed pilot in the hospital.
Oh that one, yes.
Ah ha.
So then we probably took a bit of creative liberties.
Right, right, right.
So creative non-fiction is this genre where the storytellers have some creative liberties to maneuver.
Right.
So it's like a lot of Hollywood films that are supposedly based on or inspired by true stories.
So you may have a certain incident like incident A, but you can create a narrative or story around it to make it true, to present, to show to the audience the emotional truth for that particular incident.
So that it is a bit more dramatic and a bit more engaging.
Right.
Because if we didn't do that, then the book would just be boring, just a lot of talking hits.
People talking about this, talking about that policy and so on.
So back to my point about that particular period between 1959 and 1964.
Right.
So I was interested in how Dr. Goh took the Jurong Industrial Estate project.
Yeah.
And how he saw it through to its fruition.
Right.
So I used that particular incident because it was seen as Goh's folly.
Right.
It was rightly.
Did he really have challenges with the cabinet at the time over this?
Yes.
And this one is documented.
That is true.
He had a lot of internal fights with his cabinet colleagues because they were not willing to put so much money to develop a swum land into an industrial estate.
Right.
So he fought for it and it was rightly panned as Goh's folly.
If it didn't work, his reputation is on the line.
Wow.
And that of the PAP as well.
Wow.
So he had to succeed or the whole government collapses.
Wow.
So that's why it became a pivotal point in the story for me.
Right.
I pulled out this part of your comic.
This is my favorite part.
So there's this, the bit about, as I told you earlier, the one about the interview for his personal aid.
I like that very much, man.
Kai, you can put it up, Kai.
The very first.
Yes, there you go.
I'm just going to read this out, yeah.
When he's interviewing, you can see the picture on the screen, he's interviewing for a new personal aid.
And he says, you're here today not because you're a high achiever for that.
I'm sorry, high achiever.
For that, you've already been duly rewarded for a good job in the public service.
You're here because I need an aid.
Not someone to fetch me coffee or whatever.
And not a speech writer.
I do that myself.
I need you to be my arms and legs and sometimes my eyes and ears.
Tell me, guys, fiction or not?
This bit, fiction, right?
It is fiction.
But what he said, do you think Dr. Gold King C would have spoken that way?
I believe he would have, yes.
Really?
He was a very straight talking man.
No BS about him.
Yeah.
You either come to the point or get out of my office.
Okay, but is this next thing that happened BS?
Because he said to this aid, supposedly, well, it's fiction, right?
Now we know.
But first, I have to know if you're good enough.
Now, identify the composer of this piece of music you're hearing.
Bullshit, right?
Yes and no.
Dr. Gold was a firm fan of classical music.
And he believes or he believed that an educated man should know classical music.
Oh.
In fact, these notes.
The notes in the picture, right?
It was in the front cover when I first showed it to Felix and Melvin.
Melvin's are published, but he removed it because it wasn't done properly.
Right.
It's actually the first bar.
So it's supposed to be somewhere on the cover.
Yes, yes.
It was just running.
It would have been, hey Melvin, it would have been nice if it was there anyway.
I think it would look really cool, man.
Melvin is not going to like me saying that.
I know that.
Yeah.
But it should be there.
Okay.
Yeah.
So.
Point taken.
I really think it should because if he's sitting down there contemplating, he would have had
classical music playing in the background.
Am I right?
Is that how you guys see him?
And then eventually, of course, he founded the SSO because of his love for classical
music.
Right.
And then interestingly, in that comic strip, when he said that to this aide, Kai, could
you put that same picture up again, please?
Yes, thank you.
And then the response from this first applicant said, I think it's by a classical music composer.
Then Dr. Goh went, and I summoned the next one.
It's so fun.
And then the next clip, the next clip is, you can play that, put that one up now.
What's the difference between Verdi and Vivaldi?
They were both Renaissance painters.
Then he goes, next!
They have the degree.
This is the bit that got me.
This was what I really enjoyed.
They have the degree that parks them at their station, but by no means that curiosity from
education.
Felix's words.
Yes, my words, but again, this came from research I've done that Dr. Goh believes that an education
is not just enough for you to get a degree, but it's to make you a rounded person.
So that's why I put that in, that he didn't believe that just by getting a civil service
job, you are kind of made for life.
He doesn't believe in the whole un-visable.
What do you guys think that context, how is it like today?
Is it still the same?
Opinion, opinion, opinion.
Will we be hung for this?
Well, why are you worried about being hung?
We're just giving you opinion.
Well, I think times are different.
It's a very different time from it was back then.
I don't think Dr. Goh's way of managing people would be as well received these days as it
would be back then.
What?
Because he was very blunt.
But don't you think that that should ring true today still, that it should transcend
across generations?
If this is truly the man that he was, and he was really the guy responsible for setting
up so many good stuff for this country, for this nation, and we all can attribute that
success, our success, to him, why would these sort of values actually not be espoused today?
Don't you think?
Opinion.
Okay, I myself am self-taught.
I didn't go to any truth.
Then with the work that I see you do, man, you're freaking amazing, man.
But the thing is, I don't know, different fields have different approach, someone who
can approach it differently.
And if you can excel in it, then why don't you concentrate on that instead of what Dr.
Goh espoused was that, yeah, like Pili said, you need an all-rounded education.
Sure.
But aesthetics, you find your own.
But don't you think that that sort of value should actually also be spoken of today?
That it's more than just about getting that academic degree, that fantastic brimming in
absolute academic degrees and the honors and your PhDs and all that, right?
And that's more to education than just that.
Don't you think so?
I mean, I don't know, man, he caught me.
When I was reading this, I was going, wow, yeah.
And that came from Phoenix Jung.
Well, that's true.
And it was the quickest way to get a man to say yes by offering him money.
Oh my.
So that's again fictional, but again, it's understanding from inside out what a man is like.
So as I said earlier, I couldn't write the manuscript until I've gotten inside the man's head.
And then I started writing in his voice and suddenly the whole story kind of wrote itself.
So it was as though I was assimilating his spirit.
So you were in the zone, man.
I was in the zone and I was writing as though he was inside me, talking through me.
Wow. For all you know, he might have been, man.
It's possible.
Yeah, really.
I think you brought him across quite vividly, you know, frankly.
Especially his sense of humor.
He was a man known for his-
Really, he looks so stern, man.
He looked at all his pictures and he looks like such a stern guy.
But Sinan, all these aides, and I look at their pictures and stuff, you know,
their face, you know, their- how shall I express this?
All of their faces that you drew, they're all different people, the way they looked and all that.
Some look like-
I have to make them look different.
One look like a gundu, the other one look like a- yeah.
So, you know, I mean, how do you come up with this sort of imagination,
to come up with all these different faces?
Well, that's Felix.
What?
Felix.
Oh, is that a portrait of me?
No way, really?
A bit, a bit.
Okay, so the one that you said looks like Felix, Kai, that's the next clip, Kai.
The one that says next, same question.
That's the one.
Okay, that's new to me.
So the guy at the top, Sinan, you're saying that you actually drew this guy as a depiction of what?
Or you took Felix's look, and this is your idea.
Some features of- not all-
Yeah, okay, I can come and think of it.
I can look closely at it.
Yeah, that's a-
Okay, I need to do a double take on that.
Sinan, I need to charge you copyright fees for that.
I even drew his cat, okay, one of the pages.
Is it?
Yes, somewhere in the story.
Wow, by giving him a roof over his head, that's what you said.
And then he wasn't very happy with that answer as well, because why?
Why?
Why do you put by giving him a roof over his head?
Because you knew that Goh Keng Swee is not going to like that kind of answer.
You knew that?
Because I think he wasn't one for material things.
So money, roof over your head, those are material things.
Or is it too left?
No, not too left.
I think you're trying to sway the conversation towards the left.
No, I'm not.
I have nothing planned.
Really?
Yeah.
You guys have something I can't do.
No, I have no agenda, man.
Having said that, his office itself, you know, it was so bad.
Which is good for me, I didn't need to draw a lot of...
His office, why?
It was quite bare.
Bare?
Yeah.
Right.
So that was good for me because I didn't need to draw...
Do too much work.
Books and...
Yeah.
Okay, I really need you to get in front of the mic, man.
So, you know, it was dark and...
So was it really like that?
You guys have pictures of his office.
We found an archive photo of his office, and it was really bare.
Wow.
And it's befitting a man who was very frugal and known to be quite sparing in, you know,
of sensuous things.
Don't you think that that should be the kind of leader that, you know, that should really
be the image of a true leader?
Well, you might say so, but as I said, it's very different times now.
Without all the ostentatiousness and, you know...
But they were talking about the 50s, this...
I mean, what's there?
There's no computer screen, there's no...
Yeah, sure, sure, but he could have...
The office could have been opulent too, right?
Yes.
But it wasn't, right?
Yeah.
And by the way, you will notice in the cartoons that Dr. Goh has a particular habit of lining
up pens.
Yeah, it sounds like someone familiar that's right now in the East China.
Yes.
I've heard a lot about that too.
So apparently that's a real thing that he does.
That's what he did.
That he, if he was impatient with you or during a meeting, he would take all his pens from
his pen holder and line them up.
And line them up for what?
I don't know.
He just did it as a habit.
I would have thought line them up, take it and throw it at the guy.
You know, you say one more thing and I'm going to throw this one at you, and then I'm going
to take this one and I'm going to throw another one at you, you know?
Yeah, so okay, so he lined them up.
He lined them up and then he would...
Impatient, treacherous.
Yeah, it was one way for him to...
It was what?
Possible.
I suppose his subordinates would know if he had like five pens lined up, six pens that
he was...
That he's pissed off.
He's pissed off.
You better end the meeting fast or get out.
Uh-huh.
We need to ask our current president whether he has the same habit, man.
Line up all his pens too, eh?
Ten pens.
Right.
Okay.
And then it's interestingly, man, the next guy that came along was the guy he eventually
hired.
What's the quickest way to get a man to say yes and the answer was by understanding why
he would say no.
I would think that was pretty cool, you know?
And then after that, what you did was you put that last frame at the bottom, right,
with him holding on to his pen and with his face...
Frozen.
I think that's...
That really, I mean, that was really cool.
Really, I think that was really cool, you know?
And that was the answer that he was looking for.
That was the answer.
That gave him something that was...
Yeah, but I'm just so sad that you guys have just really busted my bubble to tell me that
my favorite scene in this comic book is entirely fictitious.
It's fictitious, but it's kind of true to life.
Yeah, but it was freaking brilliant, man.
I was hoping that you really...
This would have been something real because it's like, wow, I really like this man, you
know?
I really like this man because he looked at someone way far beyond your academic qualification
and all that shit.
He wanted someone real.
He wanted someone down to earth.
He wanted someone who could feel the way he feels, you know?
And that's what I read from it, man.
And then after that, then he looked at his qualifications.
After he said, that's a shrewd answer, young man.
That's the next clip.
There you go.
It's called Huang Che Tong.
Where did you get that name?
It's a composite of different EDB officers' names.
So you got a guy you found in EDB.
One guy is a Huang.
There's a Che somewhere and there's a Tong somewhere.
And you put it together.
And put it together.
Oh man.
That's how viters work.
You know what?
I think I'm going to do one graphic novel with you guys, man.
Come up with something even more fun.
I'm going to put your name somewhere in my graphic novel.
Featured here in time.
There's going to be a hand and then there's going to be a son.
Oh gosh.
And then there's going to be a quiz.
I'll make it simple for you.
It's called Son of a Hand.
We'll feature you in our next book.
Son of a Hand or Son of a Cock.
No, no.
Now we're in the shits.
Here we go.
And then this part.
Hey, come on, man.
Come on.
This is too far fetched.
This part where he says, ah, like me, you were born in Malacca too.
Kenapa awak mau bekerja untuk saya?
Right?
And then this part, this part, this part is, ah, like me, you were born in Malacca too.
Kenapa awak mau bekerja untuk saya?
Right?
And Bahasa.
And he replied in English because there are 200,000 people who are jobless in Singapore
and he can make a difference and that is so motherhood statement.
Yes.
Which he didn't like.
Look, was he like that?
Yeah.
So that's why in the next page, Dr. Goh says that he didn't like the answer.
I know.
He said he didn't like the answer.
He didn't like the motherhood statement, right?
It is stating the freaking obvious, right?
Correct.
Right?
I don't think he really liked being in, if he was, you know, if times are different in
a different parallel universe, he really wouldn't like being in parliament today.
Yep.
And the kind of big houses that ministers met.
No, man.
No, no, no.
It's not about, I'm not going to go there.
I'm just going to say that.
Come on.
There's just so many motherhood statements being made.
Yep.
Right?
And you discover it truly by research that he wouldn't be, he really didn't like all
that.
All that…
All that ostentatious…
No, no, no.
All that motherhood statements, you know?
No, he wasn't.
He wouldn't have liked it.
He wanted action.
He wanted people to really believe what, or walk the talk.
Yes.
Right?
And get the work done.
And get the job done.
Yep.
Because he was that kind of man.
He was that kind of man.
Ideas into action.
Right.
So if I were to ask you, Sinan, as the illustrator, because Felix did the research.
He wrote, he came up with all these dialogue, right?
And is it right for me to say that dialogue?
Is it right for me to use the word dialogue?
Yeah, yeah.
Use dialogue.
I'm so afraid now because I'm a fall level older.
I talk to all the smart people.
It's the script.
He gave me the script.
Yeah, he wrote the script.
I had to put the drama inside.
Yeah, he put the drama inside.
My role and all the action scenes I told him to give it to me.
So basically, you must also have an understanding of what the man is all about in order for
you to come up with all these.
With all these wonderful illustrations and how we stop with his frozen face and stuff.
And including this guy, man.
The guy that he eventually hired, right?
This fictitious A, Huang Che Tong, right?
Look at that face, man.
I mean, to me, he really looks like a PSB guy.
Or an EDB guy.
You know, he really looks like a...
I mean, I'm sorry, man, but guys from EDB and PSB, I don't mean any disrespect, but
you guys do have a certain kind of look.
Yeah, he looks like...
Even they agree.
I think he's a mix of...
Who did I use to reference?
A bit of...
Not altogether, who?
A bit of Keanu Reeves.
What?
He looks like Philip Yeoh.
I don't know.
He looks a bit like Philip Yeoh, man.
I didn't use Philip Yeoh.
A very young Philip Yeoh.
Yeah, a very young Philip Yeoh.
But he looks like him, don't you think?
So if you look at him carefully...
No, maybe he's from the...
I do see a bit of Keanu Reeves, though.
I didn't use Philip Yeoh at all.
No, not all of it.
The lips are different.
So not all of it.
No, I know.
The lips are different.
I know that.
But when you have to come up with all these...
I mean, you must have gotten to know the man, the spirit of the man, too, in order for you
to come up with all these, too, right?
When I was approached by GIC...
This is years before Felix.
I gathered all his portraits.
I did some composite studies.
At that time, I had all these laid out for presentation, but the deal fell through.
I said, okay, I've worked this far.
Why not?
Don't waste it.
So if they didn't want to do it, you might as well do it yourself.
Yeah.
But I need the...
Man after my own heart.
I need a partner.
I just approached Felix.
Right.
So now that you've released this, well, good for you, man.
I mean, you guys, I love this.
I love the cover.
I love the story inside.
And I really love that James Bondian thing in the beginning.
Really, I think it was brilliant.
It was a good way to hook the video.
Yeah, it was a hell of a good hook, man.
That hooked me as well.
I was looking through the video clips.
This fellow who went to the Singapore High Com actually told...
Related in the documentary that he was such a man.
Yeah.
Singaporean for all seasons.
For all seasons, huh?
Yeah.
That's also because he had...
I mean, you know, there's an interesting part in this book, in the comic, where boldly you
guys actually put up the Operation Cold Store.
That was the controversial part.
But you also had to do your research, right?
Yep.
And I see you guys wrote that in here, right?
These are true accounts.
Yep.
And how it was mentioned as to why they should go ahead and do what they did.
Yep.
Well, ballsy, man, guys.
Because otherwise, you know, the number of strikes and the number of labor unrest, things
that were happening back then, would never end.
You even had the copy of The Straits Times inside here.
It says, 107 hell in Singapore, dawn drive.
That's from a real Straits Times cover story.
We didn't make that up.
Yeah.
So Goh Keng Swee was also in favor of it.
It was a cabinet decision.
Right.
But I'm not sure...
There was no record of whether there was any dissent.
But you looked at it this way, like you looked at it that he was part of the cabinet.
Certainly, he was also in the cabinet as a collective as he discussed this.
They couldn't afford all these troubles at that time.
Because of all the strikes and the riots that were happening.
It was either a make or break decision.
And so they ran full hawk into it, arrest all these troublemakers, put them under detention.
And then increasingly they started weaning out the leftists from unions.
Right.
Well, I really...
I mean, sometimes I think about it, those were difficult days.
Those were difficult, turbulent days.
Wow.
For sure.
Not a day went by...
What a cowboy town.
Yeah.
With no incident.
Yeah, man.
What a cowboy town, man.
I can just imagine that.
And so, okay, you know the show, we're going to end the show with a particular...
With a particular...
My most favorite part of the...
The audition part was your favorite part.
The what?
The audition?
No, you mean the interviews.
Oh, the interviews.
No, there's actually this particular snippet here.
It's going to come up at the end.
I'm putting it in post.
It's not going to be shown now.
It'll be shown in post.
Which means at the end of this program, it'll be up.
And this is when...
Tell me, tell me, whether you found this somewhere.
I swear.
If you're going to tell me this is not...
This is fictional.
I'm really going to scream.
Why are you going to scream?
Well, he walks out.
He walks out of the hospital at St. Thomas, which I know he didn't visit because there's
no record of that.
Yep, no record of that.
So we can't make it up.
But there was this thing that's here.
He had his overcoat on.
He put on his hat.
He walked out of the hospital.
And after visiting, the young lieutenant injured after he bailed out from his plane.
That one we know is true that he bailed out.
He said, Dr. Goh said, well, allegedly, I don't know whether it's Felix saying this
or Dr. Goh, policies may make a difference, but they will find no purchase when you forget
that people matter.
That's the poet speaking.
Not the politician, the poet.
The poet slash politician.
But kudos, man.
I mean, I love that.
It's good writing.
Yes.
I love that one.
I'm glad I engaged Felix.
Yeah, it's really very good, man.
I mean, and it resonated with me because I agree, people matter.
At the end of the day, the policy is all boils down to people.
Yeah, man.
It boils down to people, man.
It's not about $153,000 for your COE and stuff like that.
Oh my God.
It's a what?
It's true, man.
It is $153,000 in your COE.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not about that, right?
I mean, $153,000 to make sure that we have no traffic jam, not too bad traffic jam problem
in Singapore.
I mean, traffic congestion.
I don't know.
Just saying.
But people do matter and they should always be top of any politician's list.
It is about the people.
Exactly.
And I'm saying it as a citizen of this country, you know, and I'm not trying to play politics.
I never like to bring politics into my show.
I never did.
But, you know, but since I read that, what you wrote though, now that I've discovered,
was you, Felix.
You know, frankly, I felt so heartened when I read that because I thought, wow, Goh Keng
Swee actually felt that way.
But do you think he would have thought the same?
I think so.
I think based on what he said in public, his speeches and from the number of books I read,
I think he is a man of that caliber.
So confidently you...
Yes, confidently I would say he is a man of the people.
He feels for the ordinary man.
It's not just lip service or motherhood statements.
It is in him.
It is in the man himself.
How do you guys, were there any particular anecdotes or aspects of Goh Keng Swee's life
that stood out to you during your research?
For me, it was the practical joke he played on his commanders in the SAF.
What practical joke?
You didn't know about this?
Never do research.
I do research for what?
I'm not the one writing the book.
You're the one writing the book, not me.
Before your interview, you need to do research.
Don't need.
I just need to ask you.
Otherwise, I have a conversation for what?
Since I know everything, I don't need to ask you.
Is this that letter he wrote?
Yeah, this is the joke that he played on his commander.
So this is why I felt that, and this is something I put throughout the book, that he is a man,
a witty man, a humorous man.
So what he did was he wanted to test if his commanders actually read directives from upstairs.
So what he did was he sent a directive quoting passages from Noah's Ark, from the Bible,
about the Noah's Ark.
Okay, from Genesis, yeah.
Okay.
Right.
And then he wanted to see if anybody read it.
So some of these freaking commanders had no idea what it was about.
They just posted it on the routine order.
As word for word.
Verbatim.
Without asking what it was about.
Oh gosh.
And then he even wrote a paper about it, which is published.
Really?
Yes.
Just to show that people are just following orders blindly and not really reading and
understanding the content.
Yes.
Ah, it's the same damn shit today, man.
Nothing changes.
I think he will probably have fun.
I mean, I'm not saying the SCF in particular, I'm saying in general, man.
Across society, man.
People will just read headlines and that's about it.
You know what I'm saying?
How many?
Don't bluff, you jokers out there.
I know.
You just read the headlines and then you make a lot of assumptions.
Without really reading the content.
You gotta read everything, okay?
And also question the things you read.
Yeah, they don't question.
They don't question, man.
I mean, stop being damn sheep, man.
Read stuff and learn and discern.
Come on.
And not because a lot of people today like to go, I'm not a pig.
I'm not a pig.
You can push the buck.
Yeah, it's not my problem.
I don't care.
I can earn money good enough.
Which is where, outside of this book, just having a conversation right now.
You know, it's just where I raise this.
You guys are gonna look at me funny.
You guys are gonna say stupid things.
I know.
About what I'm about to say.
I keep telling people every other day.
Singaporeans, when you walk out of your house, every now and then, look up.
Yes.
Look up.
Not just like a phone.
Yeah.
Look up.
Look up and see whether or not it's a UFO.
What?
Taze, please.
No, I'm not kidding.
Really.
I mean, the reason why we think that aren't any is because we're not freaking looking
up enough.
Yes.
Guess what, man?
I'm freaking looking up and I saw one.
One UFO?
Yeah.
Like.
I'm not shitting you, man.
Hey, come on.
Come on.
You haven't watched.
Okay, you gotta watch.
Okay?
Once this season is really released out there, right?
Watch my UFO series, man.
Okay.
We'll do.
Yeah, yeah.
Is that part of the X-Files?
No, I'm telling you, man.
I've got...
It's a series, is it?
It's a series.
It's a series that is happening throughout the entire season for a few verticals.
And this is called UFO Reveal Asia.
Okay?
And you gotta watch those two episodes for this season.
And is this around Singapore or...?
Singapore.
Around Singapore.
And there's something that happened.
It's not fictitious.
It's not.
We've got pictures as well.
So, you know, and this one I saw, right?
I took a video of it, but it was too high up, man.
And people say, Chris does an aircraft and I say, get lost.
You know why?
Because the aircraft do not stop and hover.
It was very high up.
Weather balloon...
Any...
What?
In Singapore, freaking weather balloon.
I mean, don't give me this Roswell controversy thing.
Hey, it was a weather balloon.
No!
No way!
No freaking way.
It moved and it stopped.
Maybe some Russian thing.
Ugh.
Singapore.
Okay, we'll have a look.
We'll have a look.
I mean, Russian zone, for what?
Really, man.
I mean, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing.
I'm just saying that it's a bad thing.
It's a bad thing.
Yeah.
So I think, you know, look up, man.
Look up.
Because a lot of people just go about their lives every day, you know, and not sensing
things around you, you know.
Like they read headlines and they don't read anything else, you know.
I think that's really sad.
Well, some of them don't even read headlines full stop.
Yeah.
They just go to TikTok and watch whatever.
You don't get your news there, you know.
And watch TikTok.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, I'm on TikTok as well.
I mean, the show is on TikTok.
There's little reels and stuff that we put up on TikTok.
But the point is is that if I put something up on TikTok, it's going to be the juicy
parts of each episode that I put up on TikTok, you know.
But it's not about just putting up something for fun that's quirky and stuff.
That's all fun games.
That's all cool.
But there's got to be some serious stuff as well that people have got to dive into, man.
We just can't just, you know.
That's why I like stuff like this.
It makes, I really hope, and I don't know what your plans are.
I mean, this particular book, do you think, especially for the younger generations, do
you think they'll take away something from this?
Do you think they care?
I hope so.
I mean, I wrote it primarily for a younger audience who may not be aware of what Dr.
Goh had achieved in his lifetime.
So I hope they will take something away from it.
But don't you think, you know, and I've had this conversation before with a few of my
guests, those who are academics and stuff, do you think history is something that a lot
of young today feel is unnecessary for them to know?
Well, history repeats itself.
I think they should.
Oh, you and I both know that.
Yeah.
You and I, we all know that.
Yeah, yeah.
We all know the value of history.
Yeah, it repeats itself.
We don't learn from it.
Obviously, it repeats itself.
Continuously repeats itself.
It's a bloody vicious cycle.
But a lot of people today, including the folks of these young ones who believe that history
is a waste of time, and you know, my worry is that something so precious as this doesn't
get picked up.
I hope it does.
Personally, I do.
Yeah.
You know, I really hope that, hey, you young people pick it up and go and read something
about someone, you know, that was very pivotal in the history and making of this country,
you know, because it wasn't bloody easy to build Singapore, the ones that the country
that we, most of us now take for granted.
I know I sound like a damn boomer.
Get the generations right.
I'm an ex-gener.
I'm not a boomer.
Ding-bang.
Okay.
So, you know, you should take this and really, you know, it's a bloody comic book, man.
Check it out, really.
It's pretty fun reading, though, I've got to say.
Pretty fun.
And you know, I really hope the younger ones pick this up, really.
What are your plans, guys?
Future collaborations?
Any projects?
What are you planning on doing?
Well, we are talking about another book.
Yeah.
Historical in nature or what?
Mostly, yes.
It's also historical.
Yeah.
Okay.
Nonfiction to fiction.
It's got to be nonfiction.
Creative nonfiction.
Oh, here we go.
I tell you, I got to get used to these terms.
No creative nonfiction.
No, they've got creative nonfiction.
They've got nonfiction.
They've got fiction.
Sounds like a conch.
God knows what that is.
Now that we know we are into comics as well, we might even rope you in.
Oh dear.
You are asking for trouble.
I've got my fingers in too many damn things.
But really, I hope you guys had fun during the shoot.
Thanks so very much.
Thank you so much for having us.
No, no.
Thank you for being here, man.
I know most of you guys probably watching this episode probably thinking that, you know,
I don't know what you guys are talking about.
Then I'll tell you what you do.
Go and get this.
Where is this being sold now?
At Kinokuniya, probably.
Okay.
Kinokuniya.
I nearly said the bad word.
Sorry.
Kinokuniya.
It's still there.
Anywhere else?
Probably Times.
Times, a bookstore.
Anywhere else?
Amazon.
Go to Amazon.
It's easy for you.
You let your fingers go walking.
There are smaller bookshops.
Yeah, probably.
There are smaller bookshops as well.
Epigram.
Okay.
Epigram.
So get yourself a copy of Go King Sui Singaporean for all seasons.
Check it out.
It's really a fun read.
Yeah.
I hope you guys learn about, you know, this is how the spirit of Dr. Go King Sui living
within these two gentlemen here who are responsible for the creation of this book.
And you know, and people who are really, really talented, people who know what the hell they're
talking about, they do their research unlike this gentleman in front of you right now.
And the accused of that.
Anyway, so make sure you pick it up, yeah, at all the good bookstores as we mentioned
earlier.
Thank you also for watching 12 episodes of the Chris Hansen conversation.
I'm going to miss doing this for a while, but we will be back and we'll be back likely
somewhere in mid-March.
We'll be busy working to give you season three.
This is Chris Hansen together with Chia Sinan and together with Felix Cheung.
Thank you so very much for spending time with us.
Stay safe.
And thank you also Gordon Zivades once again.
I'll see you guys again really, really soon.
Until next time.
Bye bye.