And so I said okay I'll write you an article in Singlish. Okay. And I did not expect the article to be criticized by the PMO.
I mean, come on, it's just Singlish. So they wrote, so they responded to the article by writing to New York Times itself.
So it was also published as the reply to my article saying that I have trivialized the teaching of English in Singapore.
Thank you for joining us again for the second season and this is the second episode of the Chris Hansen Conversation.
I'm back in studio. I'm so happy to be back and I'm so happy to give you another episode this time with a prolific poet, an academic and a literary critic.
I have with me in studio, Dr. Gui Lee Sui. Say hi.
Hi Chris. The voice, the man. Finally to have met you.
Yes, yes. Pleasure is all mine. Also thank you for being here. I've always wanted to meet you. I read your stuff all the time online.
And I said this guy, really man, you know.
Not a lot of cock right?
A lot of cock.
Yeah, I'm sorry if you wanted to look for something intellectual on my Facebook page. Never exist.
Well, not really. Sometimes it's a little bit too cheap. I gotta go scratch my head a little bit. I don't understand what this man is saying. You know why?
Because Gui Lee Sui has a PhD in English.
Literature.
Okay, same thing.
18th century.
Not the same thing right?
Yes and no. I mean, I think these days they do call it English right?
Well yeah.
Language and literature is quite separate. So if you could be a language PhD person, it has nothing to do really with the literary things.
Fuck, I'm lost. Okay, explain that again to me. You said 18th century literature?
Like what? Give me an example.
Yeah, like Jonathan Swift, Alexander Pope, that sort of stuff. The kind of things that you know, that was pre-Singapore.
All these people, all the names you just mentioned, I don't know whether or not they all catch any ball.
I also don't know.
Jonathan Swift and gang.
Yes.
Okay, so what's the difference man? 18th century literature compared to say modern classics, is it? Am I right to say that?
I think it's like before poetry reads more modern. I mean these days we are used to a kind of more conventional style of writing poetry.
And also a more democratic way of thinking about the poetic voice. But at the time, it's entirely different in a way.
So it's not just learning about literature in what I'm doing, it's learning about the times, the influences of the times.
And specifically actually at the time my study was on get ready, it's on scientific influence.
How science actually entered into the English literature and then spread to I guess German literature and European literature.
And how it changed the way you use a metaphor, it changed the way you think about self.
And all that.
Damn chimp man.
20 years ago already.
Can I move to something that's not so chimp first?
I tell you what I'm going to do.
First of all, not so chimp are these five little munchkins on this plate.
These ladies and gentlemen, they are called vadets and they are from Gordon's Vadets.
They are the crispiest, fluffiest, oh yeah damn straight man, damn straight.
The fluffiest, crispiest damn vadets you can find in the land.
And I'd like to say thank you to Gordon's Vadets, thank you Vijay again, once again.
You're really spoiling us and feel free.
Okay, during the shoot, please, please just whack the fuzz.
Just whack?
Just whack, don't worry.
Okay, let me get back to this topic again.
What you just said to me is like, went right over my head man, way over my head.
So this is definitely younger than Shakespeare of course.
No, no, no.
No, older?
What the fuck is wrong with this?
They're not young at all.
I mean, they're like, I mean, yes.
17th, 18th century, 1700s right?
This is after Shakespeare.
Younger.
Yeah, I know, but not younger in the sense of, you know.
It's not older.
Younger than Shakespeare, but you know, it doesn't, the writing doesn't feel contemporary or it feels dated.
So in many ways, a lot of the writers at the time, they don't survive to today, you know.
And if you get some, I mean, even actually, come think of it, even Shakespeare,
if you get like school kids to read Shakespeare, they hate it right?
Because it's like, what kind of English is this?
Verse and prose.
Cannot understand, see me, see me sigh, you know.
You know, they don't appreciate, they need to have that kind of like parallel explanation, you know.
Right.
That in most of these Shakespeare books, they like that, right?
So I think that kind of density to the writing, it went until, as I said, 18.
And then after that, you don't actually need the notes anymore.
There's interesting things that happen with the romantic onwards, you know.
You can actually read the poems and you can understand it.
Can I, can I, again, but I'm going to ask you, why?
Why did you choose to do a PhD?
In 18th century literature, yeah.
I also, I also wonder, but at that time I had a question to ask.
I mean, my, my masters and my honours thesis were not even on 18th century,
though on German literature, 20th century German literature.
Okay.
Can I ask, German literature is in German?
Yes.
And you-
I did in translations, because it's after all in the English department.
So I had to do this.
I mean, really I was forced to-
So it's a style of how it's done, German literature,
that you actually studied in English and you understood the styling.
Yeah, but specifically, I mean, when I went to PhD, there was a question,
there were a few nagging questions that I wanted to answer.
And I feel like I have to go back to what happened, what happened to the voice,
what happened to the whole question of why do art, why do literature, you know?
Because the whole ethical dimension became parameterized
because of the Nazis in German literature.
So in the mid 20th century, the Germans do, I mean, the writers do
ask quite a lot about that, you know, what is the responsibility of writing,
you know, when our high culture could produce something like Nazism.
Right.
You know, so is there something flawed in art?
Is there something problematic, you know, considering that there's this humanist,
positivist development in Western culture up to that point?
So I thought I should go to the start of the Enlightenment, you know,
which is the 18th century or actually late 17th century,
and see whether there's, you know, something I can...
So it was literally out of curiosity.
Out of curiosity, yeah.
So, I mean, if you're going to do something like a PhD,
there has to be a life-changing question you want to explore.
But many people would actually pursue other things that could be life-changing,
but this is in literature.
True, like MBA.
What's the PhD of an MBA?
I have no freaking clue, man.
I don't know what's the name of that, but anyway, yeah, yeah.
So I don't know, I mean, it was just something I did,
because I felt like if I answered that question, I would know what to do next.
And you were enlightened.
And I don't know what to do next.
Are you all charred?
Okay, anyway, don't do PhD.
If you can, it will not get you a job, you know.
It got me one for a while.
You just made me laugh, I got so bad.
You know, but that's the whole point, right?
If you want to do something like a PhD, you know, you better make sure that
you have enough drive in you to, you know, to pursue it to the end.
Yeah, sure, but the thing is, Gui, is that people who pursue a PhD,
okay, okay, fine, maybe because there is, of course, there's got to be some kind of drive,
but when you thinking, you and I are the same age, we come from the same generation.
When you're thinking about what am I going to do with my life after I'm done with this PhD,
am I going to be able to do something that, you know, at least will make my money and time spent,
you know, worthwhile in a career?
Yeah, but at the time, I think the immediate thing was I got scholarships,
so I was like, hey, you know, this is free to extend, you know, the next few years,
it could be just thinking and writing for free.
Okay.
I mean, not for free, but you get some stipend,
you could do this, you know, and you better do it when you're young, because when you're old,
sure, you know, you probably fall asleep.
Okay, so you didn't see this as an opportunity for you to do something
or to forge a career in front of you that's going to be great?
I think it was a step-by-step thing.
The scholarship came with, you know, a bond.
Yes, with a bond.
Right.
So I had to serve that.
So I was thinking like, yeah, you know, I'll just go along, you know, if it takes me.
Where do you serve the bond? With who?
NUS.
Oh, you serve the bond in NUS?
Yeah, I served the bond in NUS.
It was a five-year bond, but I think I was there for all together.
I was there until the end of 2010.
Right.
I think 2009-ish I left.
So you went back to teach?
Now?
No, at that time.
Yes, after I came back from London, that's where I did my PhD in Queen Mary.
Originally it was Queen Mary and Westfield, and by the time I came out, it was Queen Mary.
So yeah, even that, I have an existential crisis.
When you get a PhD, well, it depends on when you're asking me this question.
You wrote a book, man, Fear No Poetry.
Yeah.
Do you really think the Singaporeans fear poetry?
Okay, that book is quite interesting because I did it because there was, I mean, they wanted to create, they wanted us to write, not just me, I think Pooja Nancy is the other person,
to write books that would help school kids appreciate poetry.
And mine was supposed to be on the higher level, there's supposed to be addressed, I mean Pooja is supposed to address a kind of lower sect or something like this.
So that was the division, but I felt I didn't just want to write something for school kids.
So I did write that book to address anyone who really is interested in understanding poetry and feel nonetheless very threatened by it.
So there's this very odd relationship people have with poetry.
It's intimidating.
They want to read it, but they know that when they read it, they don't quite understand it.
Yeah, so it becomes intimidating.
Yeah, but they don't understand also that when you feel intimidated, you tend to see more in the poetry, in the poem than there is there.
Actually, it's very simple, it's just treated as what it's saying, and then don't have all these expectations.
But are we supposed to, pardon me if I'm using the wrong term, are we supposed to discern what the poem is trying to tell you?
Yeah, but come to it with a clean slate, come with no expectations like you're just reading the morning paper, you know, pick up and wonder, okay, what's today's news, right?
So you go to a poem, it's like that, you don't go into it, just, okay, let's hear what it's about.
Rather than have an idea, okay, this poem is titled Love, I have all these preconceptions about love, okay, I'm going to bring it, and then the poem is going to fight with my idea of love.
You know, if you do that, the poem is going to come out very weird, you know, your understanding of what the poet, the writer is trying to say will come out very weird.
So I mean, I think that's the gist of the book, basically to encourage people to just relax when they're reading, you know.
After you read, you sit on it a while and see whether the sense comes to you before you do the interpreting.
And the funny thing about that book was that it has continued to sell until this day, and so it's like what, more than a decade really since I wrote that book.
So I think it consistently surprised me how well received still this book is.
I think the person who wrote that book, the me who wrote that book may disagree with some things I said there, but I'm glad that it has its own life, you know.
Well, yeah, great. Have you ever discovered who were these people over the last, what, 10 years, the people have been buying, who are these people?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I do know teachers.
Okay, I'm not surprising.
Yeah, teachers who actually themselves feel pressured because they have to teach poetry.
Right.
And they don't know how to come at it because they themselves also have been struggling with this, right?
I'm not surprised by that too, yeah.
So I think a good chunk would be teachers and students, I think also because the teachers recommend it.
And I've seen it on certain schools' reading lists, actually.
And then there are people like retirees or, you know, professionals of other sorts who are really interested in reading poetry and then, you know, wanting to get a handle into what is it about.
So it's more like they treat it and I think rightly so as a kind of idiot's guide to enjoying poetry.
So do you think therefore, based on what you just told me?
And I meant it a good way. I mean, I don't mean that the person who read it is an idiot.
I mean, as in like it's an unthreatening way to come to poetry.
You being too polite, regardless, any idiot can pick it up and still be an idiot and, you know, still after trying to understand how you're trying to understand it and they might still not get it, they're still idiots.
But it's, no, I think one thing is that in the book I tried to write it in a simple style, right? And also to be passionate about it. And secondly, to say that actually, you know, really it's okay to bring your own meaning to reading a poem.
But just be aware that if you want to discuss the poem in an educational context, in a social context, then it's a different way of reading.
You know, it's like if you have your own opinion about Singapore politics, that is very different from having an educated or serious social discussion about politics.
Because the second one will require you to be one right about the facts or you'll get pofma, right?
So in poetry it's the same, you know, if you don't get the facts right, you know, if the poem use the metaphor of a blue sun and then you turn it into a metaphor of a blue tiger or something like this, whatever, right?
That is factually wrong already, you know, so you cannot just do it.
So that's why it's intimidating. People's exposure to poetry would largely come from people who are in the humanities.
And the introduction of poetry probably in secondary school and maybe JC.
And then when they go into it, it's right or wrong.
Yeah, okay. That's right. And they're marked for it. So it becomes a subject.
Yeah. It no longer becomes something that people can really enjoy. Correct. So is poetry dead in Singapore?
No, I think if anything, it's well and alive. And this is very strange in poetry of all the art forms, all the literary forms in Singapore remains the more consistently popular, you know, as opposed to the others that has waves.
I mean, novels, you know, these waves and there's a time when nobody wrote novels and then now it's like a lot, right?
It's a wave in our drama. Also, it's like, you know, it's wave in and out. But poetry has been consistent, you know, and that's something very interesting about not just Singapore.
I think people tend to observe this with in general new nations. Right.
You know, the rise, the interest, the fascination with language and what you can do with language often tends to be the driving force in the culture.
Sure. But you see, that's because you're in that world on this planet. You're in that world. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people like us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. We are not. We don't see the visibility of it. Yeah. Because we're not in your world.
So don't you think, therefore, that more can be done to have people appreciate poetry? Yeah. Anyone. Anyone for that matter.
Okay. As long as you've got basic education and you can try to grow from simple little ones, you know, simple little rhymes and moving forward.
So but you don't see that visibility anywhere, even in our mainstream media or in the press and print media, which if you can call it. Yes, I agree.
To a certain extent, we must remember that poetry is in songs, poetry is in jingles. Right. And this is all there in popular culture.
It's just that we don't identify with what we imagine poetry ought to be, which is the kind of high poetry that you don't understand. Right.
So this is something very weird. We put poetry into a kind of, you know, in the box and say this is poetry. The other things are not poetry. Exactly.
And then we say that we don't understand this thing. I completely concur because music, right? Music, songs, lyrics, yeah, poetry. It's poetry. Yeah.
But a lot of people don't see it that way. Okay. Fuck. That's why that's why hip hop. Is that poetry?
Yeah, especially. You think so? Yeah. Yeah. The writing. I mean, if you see some poetry, I mean, more recent ones, I guess there are certain influences that you can tie to hip hop.
And, you know, even Taylor Swift, you know, her writing, there's a very strong poetic elements there, which is what is often highlighted as, you know, what is so clever about her writing. Right.
So I think we, I mean, for me, I'm a very liberal about the definition of poetry. Some poets are not. Let's put it this way.
Some poets are precisely the ones who say that poetry is what is in this box. Right. Anything outside of this box, you know, we don't consider that poetic. Right.
No, I'm not too sure about that. You know, poetry can be in a lot of things. It's not necessarily even in words. Yeah. You know, a painting can be poetic. Yeah. A way of thinking can be poetic. Yeah. A way of seeing the world can be poetic. Yeah.
You know, I mean, so that's the most general way of going. But if you're going to look at language and what poetry does with language, you know, then it's a certain direction.
And then with poetry that is on written page or in the traditional way of thinking what poetry is, I guess that is primarily tied to written, you know, at this stage is also the oral dimension, the performed poetry, you know, the slam and all that.
You know, that is the what? Sorry? Slam poetry? Have you heard about it? No. What's that?
Ah, that's well, that's a kind of performed poetry where, you know, they get on stage and then they recite, you know, and they perform the recital and all and then people clap. It's not so much a written form. It's to revive the form of poetry that is tied really to how our old cultures used to be where poetry is oral.
Right. And there's theater to it. Yes, yes. There's theater that's performed. It's also rituals, you know, it's also tied to rituals of what culture means or frustration or about some mysteries like a great tragedies and all that kind of stuff.
Right. I mean, anyway, there's that oral dimension that I guess this trend tried to recoup.
Right.
You know, whereas I think for us in a traditional way, in a way we thought in schools, they are tied to textual understanding of what poetry ought to be.
Yeah. So do you think something ought to be done on that level where in schools to get kids to really be interested in poetry rather than, you know, looking at it as an English literature subject is weighted, is graded?
Okay. This thing is passe because I don't think most schools teach literature anymore.
What?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. We are the same age. So I understand what you're going through now as a trauma realizing this. Yeah, yeah, but it's been a long many years now. I know schools that actually teach literature as a subject are not the norm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My son's school, which was my school, still teaching literature.
Are you up your school? St. Panc? Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's great.
But I can tell you a lot of schools don't and because it's an option that is open to the schools, right?
Holy crap.
To choose, right? And then the teachers have to think about like, is my kids going to perform? And they're not going to pick up literature because literature is one subject where you cannot predict how the students are going to perform.
How do you feel about that?
Actually, I'm fine.
Huh? Why?
For the same reasons as you said just now, right? All these problems of trying to teach kids about all these things, now, blank slate.
Right.
We are back to that.
Interesting.
I love it. I love it when kids have no preconceived ideas of what poetry means, what literature means.
And they pick it up leisurely.
And they pick it up and they just read it for what it is.
Yeah.
And then they say, okay, I enjoy these poems. I like it. Not because the teacher said so, not because the curriculum said so, you know, not some dead white man said so.
It's because I like it.
Can I ask you, if that say for these schools that don't offer literature anymore, will it, in your opinion, impact the strength of vocabulary for our youth as they grow into society? Is it going to impact them in any way?
Is English going to get worse?
No, not really.
It's really quite fucking bad now.
Yeah, but personally, I don't think literature alone will solve that issue.
No, of course, but it's part and parcel of it.
It's also, you know, removing it is not a good idea.
Newspaper standards, you know, internet article standards, you know, all these things, you know, they are consuming this all the time, much more than books.
True.
If we turn the clock back and get people to read books, then we can talk about getting them to read literature. But now it's going the other direction.
They're going online and all.
And, you know, yes, poetry and all has gone online as well.
Yeah, but it's just going to get worse, isn't it?
I mean, right now, even headlines are so damn wrong.
And in the next 10, 15 years, you're going to have new young journalists coming in and screwing up even more.
Because they're not even reading literature.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, but I think again, I think there's language standards and there's literary standards.
I think we are now.
So you're saying the two separate things.
Yeah, the two separate things, not necessarily separate.
They are intermingled.
But I'm just saying there are two elements.
And I think the literary standards is really tied to creativity play that is involved in what you understand is possible with the words that you have in your vocabulary.
Right.
But the language is the fundamental one.
You know, if your language strength is not there, if your grasp use of the English language is not strong enough, your literary, there's also a limit to what you can do literally.
I mean, it's not to say that if you have bad or low standard English, you cannot write a great literary work.
That's entirely not true because some writers with very limited English can write amazing, creative work.
How does that happen?
Because it's creativity.
It's the way you think, the way you try to individualize a point that you feel or feeling you have.
And that makes the word work literature.
But how do you translate that?
I mean, if your English is not so good.
I can tell you that some of the some writers in Singapore, some poets in Singapore are not trained in literature.
You know, they can be engineers, they can be computer science people, and they write fantastically.
So basically, they're like composers of music.
You can be you might not be so educated, but you might not know how to play piano or guitar, you know, and then you can still sing well, right?
Or write words into lyrics.
Yeah, yeah.
But language is the issue.
I think primarily the thing that schools can do is get the language right.
You know, you know, they have to find a way to get the kids to learn English properly.
And don't OK, coming to my other favorite topic, Singlish.
Don't always write Singlish.
You know, it's not nothing to do with Singlish.
You know, Singlish is another thing.
It's another language.
If your kids English are not good, maybe you should teach them proper English.
Tell them not to speak Singlish because if they start speaking Singlish, they will learn the other things.
They will learn the ghetto language in America.
They can learn from the K-pop.
They can learn all sorts of other stuff they pick around, you know, and they don't have to.
Those are not Singlish, but still those will not help them improve their English.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I need to tell all the viewers and listeners this Dr. Guili Swee doesn't just have a PhD in English literature.
He is also the granddaddy for Singlish man in Singapore.
I'm not a granddaddy.
The grandmother is Sylvia Tlopak Pichu.
Pichu.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK.
I have to acknowledge her because she's the...
No, she did it in the 80s.
She's a grandma for Singlish.
Yes.
And then after that, there are a few other people who have done it, right?
Colin Goh has done the, what's that, the dictionary with his wife.
Right.
And then there's also, what's his name?
Mel.
Mel has drawn a comic book that is Singlish.
I mean, people have done it through the years.
OK.
Mine is just accumulation of all the efforts.
I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
So you're the uncle.
Uncle, uncle, uncle.
I'm the latest update.
The latest update.
Yeah, latest version.
I feel for me with that, at least that Speking Singlish book.
Yeah.
The idea is to go to the next level, the next logical level.
Can you put up Speking Singlish for me, please?
Speking Singlish.
Let's put it up, let's put it up.
Let the world see.
There you go.
A companion to how Singaporeans communicate.
Yeah.
Can you see that symbol, the talking head symbol?
Yeah.
Do they look familiar?
Pac-Man.
No, not Pac-Man.
Pac-Man what?
It's for the speak good Mandarin from our youth.
Holy shit.
So I know they have two talking heads, right?
But I thought that's not very multicultural or multiracial, you know?
OK.
They have to be different color.
So is Singlish Creole or Pidgin?
It was, you know?
It was.
But we have gone beyond that.
Because a Pidgin is really a speech form that is basic,
that is a beginner's language, you know, a simple child's language.
You know, when your kids start to speak, you know, it's a very rudimentary form.
Right.
Whereas I think over the years, Singlish has become this overblown thing.
Overblown how?
In what way?
We don't have a dictionary.
Even Colin and Yen-Yen's book has contained everything.
In fact, it has been superseded.
The language has doubled, tripled.
It's gone so big that...
Evolved?
Yes, it has evolved.
And also the meanings have changed.
You know, every time you listen, you'll hear a new...
I mean, I won't say like every few months you listen, you'll hear a new permutation,
either a new meaning or a new word will come in.
For example, something that came in, I only started hearing like two years or three years ago.
If I had been around long enough, but I don't have enough Chinese speaking friends around me
to have observed how long he has made inroads into the English speaking or Singlish speaking word.
The word pa, pa, you know?
You know, we have lama.
Oh, pa.
Oh, I know pa.
I know pa.
It's like, what's this pa?
Then I realize, oh, it's the Chinese pa, you know?
Yeah, yeah, pa.
Yeah.
But at some point, he has made inroads into Singlish.
I've noticed in the last year or so, my wife sometimes ends a sentence with pa.
Yeah.
So this is very unconscious, which is great, because there are words that people try to consciously force into Singlish.
And because it's done consciously and it therefore doesn't really relate to daily life, you know, they fall off.
But there's some like this that come in naturally and people use it because they understand the context in which the word is used
unconsciously and then they just replicate it and it becomes Singlish, you know?
That's the thing that you have to observe.
For me, I sit in Kopitiam all the time and much of my hearing problem has to do with like eavesdropping too much on people, you know,
which is what I do a lot.
You know, so if there's an uncle down there with his ear, you know, uncomfortably close to you in a Kopitiam, that's me.
Uncle Gui?
Yeah, yeah.
Kepo Gui.
Singlish with Uncle Gui.
Yeah, so if you ask me what's my authority, I say Kopitiam is the authority.
What's your take on, you know, I mean, for example, I've spoken about this in my previous podcast show with Grimit.
He was on my show then.
Grimit?
Grimit Sang.
Yeah.
And of course we got into the topic of PCK.
I acted in an episode of PCK.
Yes.
Oh, you know.
Yes, come on.
Oh gosh.
You have an unforgettable face.
Oh, Lord.
Together with the voice.
Okay.
Don't know whether that's a good thing or not.
But and you know, it really pained me then, I recall, when all of a sudden PCK became so tame in terms of the usage of Singlish.
And I think it became a subject for a bit, if you recall, in community, you know, and where it seems like Singlish is kind of frowned upon.
Yes.
And discouraged to be used because some people believe that it actually was the word for it.
It's too informal, it puts your English, the command of your English language into question.
Yes.
And then you just basically, proper English, standard English is just going to diminish.
So what's your take on that, man?
Yeah, you mentioned a lot of things in just those few lines.
Firstly, historically, actually, there's always been a sector that's against Singlish or not comfortable with Singlish, you know, and trying to make it less popular.
They're not going to succeed because they are definitely on the wrong side of history based on how Singlish has been progressing.
Okay.
You know, it's natural, you know, you can't stop something that people are doing unconsciously.
Right.
You can't stop it only if they know what they are doing, you know, but you know, Singlish, I think since the, was it 70s or 80s that, you know, the MOE has already made it a point at that time.
I think, I believe it was Deng Soon, who was the Minister of Education at the time, who said that you cannot use Singlish in schools.
The university has actually already been researching into Singlish as early as the 70s.
Right.
So, that was the kind of rule that has been in place until today, that is in most contexts, educational contexts, you don't use Singlish.
You have to use English, which is fine.
But then that translates into Singlish then becoming something you use outside.
Right.
And that's for the longest time, and some linguists are now making the proposal that we ought to do something about it, is that we do not differentiate between Singlish and bad English.
When you ought to, because if you want to teach people to speak English, then you have to teach them what the proper rules of English is.
Yes.
And by definition of what the proper rules of English is, you know what is bad Singlish.
But that may not be Singlish, because Singlish rules are not the same as bad English rules.
Okay, wait, wait, there are Singlish rules.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
We all know what sounds Singlish and what doesn't sound Singlish, right?
Okay, I mean, yeah, but you're saying Singlish rules.
I mean, we know the English language has got definitive sets of rules.
Yeah.
Right?
But where are the definitive sets of rules for Singlish?
Well, that's the thing, because English had centuries of development.
Right.
Right?
It is able to not just refine itself to a clarity what its grammar is, but also have people able to articulate what those grammar is.
Singlish didn't have that long.
You know, in terms of language, it is still a baby.
Right.
Right?
It is a baby where we now somehow know what the rules are, but we have not yet learned how to articulate the rules.
And the rules themselves are still changing.
Now, for example, if you drop your pen, right, you say, go where?
Right?
I mean, pen go where?
Pen go where?
Eat my pen where?
Correct.
All these are correct form.
But you don't say, wear go pen.
Right?
Wear go pen is wrong.
You can tell me that that is bad English, I agree with you.
But you tell me that is Singlish, I disagree with you.
Because no Singlish speaker will say that.
You see, so already there is a form.
There is a grammar.
Correct?
I agree.
I'm laughing because for the first time I have someone actually telling me that's bad Singlish.
And there is good Singlish and there is bad Singlish.
Yes.
And there is bad English and good English.
I tell you the hypocrisy, man.
The hypocrisy in society.
I have a 14-year-old kid, he is still in school.
Then of course, in the course of him growing up, you meet all sets of parents.
And I know a lot of parents who tell their kids, they frown upon them even outside of school and outside of official matters.
And he speaks English and they frown in their school and they say stop talking, speaking that way, blah, blah, blah.
Otherwise your English gets bad.
I don't think personally that it impacts someone.
For example, if I'm going to sit down and write in proper standard English, I'm doing it in proper standard English.
I break away and then I start speaking Singlish.
As you said just now, your English can be bad, it doesn't mean you can't write poetry.
You can actually split the two.
I'm an entertainer.
I go on stage.
I'm going to say, for example, I'll give you an example.
I've been doing this for 37, 38 years.
I invite the protocol aspects of a segment of a show program.
You have your guest of honor.
It could be a minister, it could be the president for all that matters.
You introduce and you're proper.
Standard English and you are proper.
Then after that, as the night goes on, you have games you play with the ballroom, with the guests and all that.
And that's different.
And you have to build relatability.
You break it down to the language that people can relate to and it will be easier to get them going, easier, faster for them to understand.
That's right.
They relate to you and they feel you're just like me, I'm just like you.
And we can laugh together.
And then you break into Singlish.
Once the game's over, you go back into Standard English.
So I think...
And that's a skill.
That's a language skill which is important for now and the future.
Gone are the days where mastery of one language is enough.
I think we are underestimating the average Singaporean too much.
I feel, of course, they have to be educated.
Most people are today, right?
At least the last two generations, three generations.
You have these guys who I'm saying they've been underestimated.
I believe that they sit down, they write a proper business email.
Yeah.
And then while they're doing so, they speak Singlish to their colleague.
Correct.
It doesn't necessarily mean that their English is bad.
They cannot do, yes.
In my opinion, I think this BS bullshit hypocrisy has got to stop.
I agree.
And it's also a kind of hypocrisy of the monolingual.
Actually, if you ask me anything, I suspect it's precisely the people who cannot do this kind of things
that feel threatened and say, no, everybody must speak like me.
They cannot do the switching.
The thing is, actually, the switching happens on so many levels, especially from our generation onwards.
I speak as if we have been around for a long time in this country, compared to our parents' generation,
where they have reasons to be, I guess, very proficient in just one language, which I don't think so.
My father, whatever it is, he was still able to speak Malay.
He can speak Mandarin, but he can speak Malay, he can speak Teochew.
And that is also a form of multilingual.
And when he mixed all these things up together, it's still a form of sign language.
My dad could speak nine languages.
So as long as we are officially or unofficially...
Wait, wait, did you say nine languages?
Yes.
Oh my God.
Tamil, Japanese, Portuguese, fluently, Malay, Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka.
Oh my gosh.
There's two more.
English, of course.
Wow.
There's one more.
If I am not mistaken, Teochew.
Why is it a national treasure?
Yeah.
And the ability to speak so many languages, put him in good stead, man.
Because as a police officer, you deal with all kinds of races.
Oh, Tamil, sorry.
Tamil, Tamil.
Yeah, you mentioned that was the number one.
Okay.
Correct, first one.
So as a cop, right, conducting these investigations,
you can deal with all kinds of witnesses and people that you want to interview and stuff,
and you can speak the language.
Yeah.
And that to him is very important.
No, but also you're right about that.
And also a number of people from different backgrounds that you interact with on a day-to-day basis,
that will also change the way you understand and use language.
So that didn't just show how much your father is able to speak all these languages.
It also showed the diversity or the background that your father has been dealing with.
No, I think also it is the personal commitment, not dedication,
but personal commitment that, you know, I live in this country,
and there's a myriad worth of dialect groups and races, right?
So it is best that we all be able to communicate together.
It's kampong thing, you know, it's a kampong thing.
Correct.
Yeah, but today, when you look at the kids today, even those as the working adults today,
they ask them to break into Hokkien, they can't.
Correct.
So I think that's the thing that has changed, you know,
the commitment to understanding the culture, appreciating,
or being part of the culture that you live in.
Right, you see like our Malay is today, right?
I mean, fantastic.
So many Malay kids are taking Mandarin, right?
But you don't see many Chinese kids taking Mahasa.
That's an issue.
Yeah, exactly.
But the Malay see that this is an opportunity for them to be able to speak also to Chinese people
and speak fluently in Chinese, right?
But we don't have the Chinese thinking that it's a good opportunity for us to even be speaking in Mahasa.
You know, this thing, you can actually see it happening, this split, this siloing,
you can actually see happen in Singlish, which is very interesting
because Singlish is not just something we use normally,
it also is a place where you can observe the symptoms that points to the problems that we have in society.
The Singlish spoken by particular Chinese communities are not the same as spoken by people with more friends
or adapting more to people from a different background.
And the Singlish that's spoken, let's say, among the Malay communities,
the Singlish are all different.
Whereas I remember a time in my youth when the Singlish is more consolidated,
when we do happily use each other's words and then we do understand each other's grammar
because it's the same one.
But these days it seems to be like certain sectors will use a lot more Hokkien or Chinese words in their Singlish,
and then when you bring out a Malay word, they either don't know it or they didn't know it's Malay.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. You're quite right there.
And I think the community is stuck in the middle of the Eurasians.
No, Eurasians are the best. They suck at everything.
Actually, you're right. If you talk to Eurasians, the Singlish standard hasn't really changed from decades.
It's almost the same because we can break into Hokkien, we can break into Malay.
I don't see much difference, but you're very right in your observation when it comes to, say, the Chinese.
It's more laced with Chinese words, and the Malays are laced with more Malay words and intermingled with English.
But it's kind of sad because that kind of evolution is something that I don't personally like seeing.
It speaks volumes of how maybe perhaps community has become more, instead of coming together,
it's become more of a home with unity based on our creole alone.
Did I say that? I used the term creole.
So you can see the difference. And it's kind of sad also.
I think one of the contributing factors could be if you step into a lift
and you have a bunch of office workers going in a conversation,
say a group of five people, and amongst the five people is one Malay guy, the rest are Chinese,
and they start speaking Mandarin, and that one Malay guy just sitting down there with that group,
and going, what the hell are you talking about?
Exactly.
And no one seems to see it that I've got someone else here who doesn't understand,
they cannot partake in this repartee even.
And what's also worrying is that if let's say this group of people, then think they can help the situation
by speaking Singlish, but then the Singlish is still not modulated enough
because it's still stuck with a certain limited Chinese vocabulary or whatever,
that it's not inclusive, which I feel is unfortunate because again,
we are deviating from what Singlish originally was.
We have to somehow bring the Singlishers back.
I'm quite happy using the word Singlishers because I think it also exists on the high and the low level,
as in people with very strong English background, their Singlish is of a certain kind
that is not the same as when I use it in Kopitiam, which is okay.
They are still all Singlishers, and we're not going to pretend that it's English.
Gone are the days where we pretend that it's English and say, oh, it's bad English.
Let's get away from this.
So the Singlish dictionary right now can be thrown out the window then?
No, it's still useful because as I said, I mean, a lot, much is still the same in terms of meaning and content,
but some words have evolved in their meaning and more words have been included.
And the thing about language is also that certain words come in and drop out.
So like say there are some words that are very popular at one time,
and then they stop being popular for a long time,
and that doesn't mean that a few years time they might come back into fashion.
Something like stylo-milo, right?
In these days, it seems to have made a comeback.
Has it?
For 10 over years before, I think it's, you know, I don't hear it.
It's like if you use it, it sounds like your old-fashioned.
You really keep a lookout for these things?
Oh yeah, you listen, you listen, because it's very interesting.
I wonder whether there's anything to do with Halema making Milo popular again,
but it's come in, you know, and sometimes the young people,
they like some of this, the sound of these words, and then they reintroduce it in.
Yeah, it feels good to look at the tongue.
But there's some that really, you know, go out like obit, you know,
if you use the word like obit, obiang, you know.
They know we're uncles.
Definitely obit and obiang.
They'll know we're uncles, because we're using it.
Yeah, we use it, right?
Like ketuk, ketuk, I ketuk, I ketuk.
What do you mean?
These days, the kids will have no idea what you mean.
Because it's a Malay word, ketuk.
No, but they use hantam, you know, a wag, you know.
Actually hantam is cruder, you know.
Hantam means punch you, to hit you.
Ketuk means to give you a little knock, you know.
It's different, it's two different meanings.
If you try to tell them, it's different.
Kai, isn't it Kai? Kai, don't you agree?
Let the people hear you, man.
Hantam and ketuk, right?
Hantam is worse than ketuk, isn't it?
Exactly.
And I asked you earlier about poetry, and I said is poetry dead?
I asked if poetry is dead in Singapore.
I want to ask you now, before I go there, I want to add this little morsel in.
Now that we've got so many naturalised Singaporeans, people formerly from India,
I have to say formerly because they're naturalised,
people formerly say from even Canada or some western country, right?
They're here in Singapore and become Singaporeans,
and they also try to get into Singlish.
They try to, of course, assimilate into community.
How do you see Singlish evolving now that we've got more naturalised Singaporeans?
Yes, very good question.
Just like English, I guess, you know, in the history,
I always look at that because it's a very good template for how world language evolved.
Singlish survived to this day and became international precisely because two,
one, it is multicultural.
It was the various influences that have gone into England, shaped their language,
make it what it is.
It is not one person's language.
And two, it is exorbitant.
It absorbs others.
It willingly lets itself be bastardised.
So people horrified, for example, especially teachers,
that OED, the Oxford English Dictionary, happily embraces Singlish words.
Over the last many years already, every few years,
they will announce a list of Singlish words that they are introducing to OED,
and they go, you know, official English speakers of a certain kind will go crazy,
as in like, no, no, you are corrupting the English language.
But English language has always been about corrupting itself.
It's always been absorbing all these words, which is what makes it so powerful.
English also evolves.
Yes. So Singlish, because we don't have something of an authority, of a centre,
we don't have like a language centre like French, we don't have an OED like English,
you know, it is very natural in how the words keep circulating and entering and all.
There are words that, you know, like Thai or whatever, they come in and we just happily use it.
And we happily call it Singlish, use it, and as long as it's within that, that's fine.
It is not so much about whose culture it's from.
It's so long as what is used is relevant unconsciously to our way of life.
So in that sense, therefore, I know I might as well not ask that question that I wanted to ask you earlier.
Poetry isn't dead in Singapore, according to Guili Swee, and Guili Swee also, I'm going to assume,
is going to say that Singlish also equally is not dead in Singapore.
Singlish isn't dead in Singapore.
Singlish is never dead in Singapore.
Even if it evolves, and it evolves unconsciously, therefore it is still Singlish.
Regardless of where or whoever influence.
The form of Singlish is changing in, how should I say, it's just like you and me.
There's essence of you and me that is still there, but if you look at a photo,
you don't look like what you were 10, 20, let alone 30, 40 years ago.
You still look the same.
You know, your height is different, your complexion is different, everything is different.
But the essence is there. It's the same thing with Singlish, you know.
The essence is there.
I mean, there are words that are definitely part of the essence because they have never left.
Words like la, words like alamak, you know, those have always been there.
Alamak, you think alamak is still around?
Yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
I don't really hear alamak. I always use alamak.
Okay, but yeah, I hear quite a bit, but I don't know.
What would they say these days if it's not alamak?
I have no freaking clue, man.
What lao? Please don't say fu yu, okay? That's Uncle Roger.
Fu yu.
That's Malaysian.
Uncle Roger.
That's Manglish.
It's called Manglish?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look, there was a time when Singapore and Malaysia were together, right?
And back at the time, we did speak a form that was quite similar.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But when we split, Singlish and Manglish went different routes.
Singlish had English as the core stem, and perhaps Malay and Hokkien.
Yes.
Manglish made Malay the core stem.
Right.
So there are a lot more Malay words, and also the words permuted differently.
So the use of la, for example, and our use of la is not the same.
You know, the relaek la and our relaek la are also slightly different.
And the way that they – so certain things are quite different, right?
Really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Very wonderful one.
My – permensiasuikan.
Have you heard of it?
What?
Permensiasuikan.
No.
That means sia-swee la.
But they have this done in the Malay form.
Permat?
Permen – or sia-swee-kwan.
Sia-swee.
Sia-swee-kan.
Permen sia-swee-kan.
Okay.
That's definitely not Singlish.
It's Manglish.
Manglish.
You see, but there are things that we say that is not the same as – there are things
that are shared.
There are things that are shared, you know?
There are things like relax la, whatever we share.
Singlish is still sexier.
It's also because we have – it's sexier also because we have – how should I say?
We have been in a way – Singlish speakers have been – has been suffering a lot more
than Manglish speakers because in Malaysia they don't actually make that a national
issue.
Yeah.
So it's able to, you know, survive and –
Free flow.
Free flow and run and evolve.
Whereas we have become in a way – we are forced to be a bit more defensive, reactive
about Singlish because there's always this debate about Singlish.
Right.
You know, and I'm not sure whether it's a more natural way of developing, but it's
definitely a very Singaporean way in which Singlish developed.
Yeah.
Okay.
Still on the topic of Singlish, man.
I mean, you became the first literary – well, what you did for the first literary classic
to appear in Singlish.
Oh, oh.
I didn't bring today.
Little Tengku.
The Little Tengku.
Can we flash that on the screen please, Kai?
Yay.
The Little Tengku.
So tell me, this one is a classic.
I can't even pronounce the French dude's name, man.
How do you pronounce it?
Antoine de – de – yes.
Es-se-pre.
What?
You don't even know?
Es-se-pre.
Okay.
It's a French word.
Well, yeah.
Obviously.
Just because I can spell it doesn't mean I can pronounce it.
So I should not have listened to you anyway.
So I can't pronounce that to save my freaking life, man.
Es-se-pre.
Okay, this dude, Nero –
This dude, this pilot.
What's the name, what's the name, the actual title of this book?
The Little Prince.
The Little Prince, okay.
So the Little Prince is now the Little Tengku.
It's so funny because I was just reading this bit here.
Bye-bye said the fox.
This is my secret.
Simple, simple one.
You can see with your heart, yeah.
What is Tokong the batjee who cannot see?
My goodness.
And from the inside page, Singlish is the unofficial language of the people in Singapore.
Wow.
And then what do you write from the dedicatory?
Oh, that's not my dedicatory.
No, whose versus?
That's the author's.
The author's one?
Yeah.
Well, then you actually translated even that?
I translated, yeah, you have to.
You have to translate the whole book.
Yeah, okay.
Can I just read this?
This is so funny.
I hope you Chuan can panchan panchan and dedicate this book to an Allahaw.
I got good excuse one.
This one, Allahaw, is my bestest kawan in the whole world.
So you did the whole damn book.
Yeah, yeah.
Like this.
I mean, it must have blown your mind, right?
It was a challenge because it's the first time I'm doing it.
I've now done a few books already, so I'm getting a hang of it.
It's not perfect, but because it's the first time I was doing it, that one,
as I was translating, a lot of questions, a lot of translators' questions came up,
that I never thought before I started the project.
So I actually went to numerous drafts because I realized that there are so many questions I needed to answer.
And The Little Prince may not be the best first book to have started with because it is such a complicated book.
It may be a children's book, but it has so much emotion and it's such a sad book.
It's about children's, I mean, the adult world.
It's about growing up into the adult world and to be aware of all these dangers in the adult world.
And there's so much sadness in the story and so much wisdom in the story about valuing the things that will preserve your soul.
It's such a profound thing to do.
This is not the right book to start with, man.
Because for one reason, when people think of Singlish, they think of humor.
They want to laugh. They want to do the Pochukang thing.
They want to do the Mr. Brown thing. They want it to laugh.
And you give it such a sober philosophical book.
I mean, it's great because The Little Prince is the most, possibly the most translated children's classic ever.
It has 300 over translations. So it sounds natural for this publisher to have offered this to me as the book to start with.
But I think for the readers, it was a total shock because you didn't want to first encounter a Singlish book that is so serious.
You wanted something to laugh with.
So it's very interesting when I first came up with this book, some people read it, they read it and they laugh and haha, this is so funny because it's Singlish.
And as they go through the pages, they say, hey, this book is actually quite sad.
Oh my God, this is getting very depressing.
And I think when they start to feel that and they tell me that, and I felt, ah, then I got it right.
Because if they are just laughing through the whole book, then I'm just making, I'm not getting to the sense of what the book is about.
What it truly is about.
You should be able to cry by the end, even if it's in Singlish.
You know, it's to do the Jack Neal thing, you have to be able to cry in that language.
That even despite all the things that you enjoy as humor, you have to hit a note where you feel the message, the actual message is being set up.
Yes, got through.
And then you know that the Singlish has worked.
Yeah. Did you, okay, first of all, the little tongku was the take up rate, I mean, how people were really buying into it.
You know, the interesting thing, and I didn't know until the year was done, the financial year was done, it was that publishers best selling work that year.
Wow. So people were really picking it up.
Not just in Singapore.
So this is one reason why also with my Singlish book, I tend to go with the international publisher because I wanted to get it out of the hands of it being able to be restricted here.
You know, I think the best people to value Singlish work are people who are freed from, from, you know, a particular non-linguistic interested stance.
They come at it, not necessarily because they have any real interest in Singlish.
It could be all these other reasons.
I just want people to enjoy the Singlish for what it is.
But do these people, if they're foreign, for example, foreign.
They're Singaporeans who have lived, that have gone away.
Singaporeans.
They're Singaporeans who have lived away.
You know, they picked it up and said, wow, this feels like home.
Feels like home.
Yeah. And there are linguists who have been, who have been like, linguists that have been like studying Singlish.
And, you know, you don't want to always have to come to Singapore to do the research.
You know, so a book like this does help in a way.
And so, I mean, there are, I mean, I didn't realize this.
I just thought that, you know, for me, it was more a practical thing that I need to, I mean, when they, when the publisher approached me,
that I consider for the future of Singlish to have it put in the hands of a wider audience.
Have you ever gotten yourself into any kind of flak?
For this book?
For, not just for this book.
Being an advocate for Singlish.
You know I go into trouble with the New York Times article.
Well, let's talk about it.
You know about this?
I've read about it, but I didn't really go into specifics.
I think I have to thank them for, in a way.
All that have happened to me in the last, what, how many years now?
Eight years?
Mm-hmm.
It's thanks to...
The New York Times article.
More specifically, thanks to the PMO.
You know, I mean, I would not have reached a certain level of infamy because of it.
So what happens at a time, New York Times wanted me to write an article.
Right.
About poetry.
Really, about Singaporean poetry.
Okay.
And it was one of the topics that was raised, and they kind of thought, yeah, maybe not
very, you know, something that the wider audience could kind of understand and all.
So let's find something, you know, perhaps it's curious enough for someone to want to
read, and so they suggested Singaporean poetry, sorry, Singlish, since my poetry has quite
a bit of Singlish, my original first book of poetry, volumes.
And so I said, okay, I'll write you an article on Singlish.
Okay.
And I did not expect the article to be criticized by the PMO.
Right.
So you really didn't expect it to happen?
No.
Nobody did, right?
I mean, come on, it's just Singlish.
So they wrote, so they responded to the article by writing to New York Times itself.
So it was also published as the reply to my article saying that I have trivialized the
teaching of English in Singapore, you know, by promoting Singlish, you know, and among
other things I said.
So because of that, the Singapore press picked it up and it blew up, you know, and for that
one whole month I just can't get things, you know how things are in Singapore, right?
Yeah, yeah.
They get politicized.
Yeah, yeah.
Even if it's nothing to do with politics.
Yeah.
It's just about Singlish, right?
And suddenly I get these two groups of people, people who are supporting me, who are not
actually about supporting Singlish.
They're just doing it because they want to go against the government, you know, they
want to criticize the government.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the other side, you know, they're actually Singlish speakers or they're bad English
speakers.
They could be from either of these camps, but they will be saying like, English is important,
you know.
And I was like, hey, your English is so bad.
Why are you...
You know, anyway, there'll be these two groups, and then they're debating, it's not about
me anymore.
It's just like I'm...
So you're just standing there and watching all this happen.
And getting scapegoated, one left, right?
And I was like, I'm not going to engage this discussion, you know, so I just kind of disappeared
and dug a hole and hid there and just did my book, just did my work.
But it was a creative piece you wrote for New York Times.
It was a creative piece.
And the great thing was that at that time, there was this middle ground that was run
by Berta Hansen.
I wonder who she is.
I also wonder who she is.
She's my sister.
Yeah, yeah.
And your sister did this fabulous thing of just telling me to go ahead and keep writing
my Singlish article, which I have been doing for middle heart.
So I know I just, you know, I hid myself and I just keep writing, churning these things
out.
Right.
And all this went into Speckings Singlish.
So Speckings Singlish is actually my belated response to all this rubbish.
Right.
So it's a collection of everything you've written in the middle ground.
Yes and no.
When Marshall Cavendish approached me about compiling this, I thought it was great for
a few reasons.
One is that, you know, they're international, they can bring this to a wider audience.
Right.
And the second thing is I felt, hey, this is, you know, the ones I've written, what
I've written sounds still very English.
Let's make this fun by rewriting the whole thing.
Everything is English, you know?
Yeah.
And I said, why not?
When you read the English dictionary, what's it in?
English?
Doesn't that sound contradictory to you?
I'll go read the news dictionary because I want to know what English words means.
Right.
And it's explained to me in English words.
Yes, yes.
So very fundamental to the learning of any language is this paradox, right?
So I can do this also.
I can write about Singlish in Singlish.
Why not?
And then, you know, there will be that level of enjoyment, you know, for people who feel
like they are missing out on something.
And so they are trying to decode the book that is supposed to teach them what it is
about.
Do you think this matter regarding Singlish in Singapore is kind of muted now?
I mean, you know, nobody really challenges it or challenges against it, you know, being
used and all that in society and community, blah, blah, blah.
It's kind of muted now, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's...
There's more acceptance, isn't it now?
I hope so.
I think it's also part to do with the research that was done, right?
Recently that they showed that...
Was it the IPS?
I can't remember which institute that did the research.
And the younger generation has said they're fine.
They are able to speak English and Singlish.
It doesn't threaten their...
Their ability and competency in the English standard.
And I'm glad because that already firstly showed there's awareness that there is a difference
between English and Singlish.
And secondly, there is also a willingness to move away from that old debate, which is
like, don't speak it, don't speak it, you know?
As long as you're moving, as long as the debate is changing, as long as people are responding
differently and positively, I think we are in a good place.
And I just want to state for the record, yeah, in no way and by no means this episode meant
to, you know, stir up that debate again.
Just to make it clear.
In no way is this episode meant to stir up that debate again.
No, no, no.
It's over.
Yeah, definitely.
I think we are in a better place now.
I think so too.
I think people are also much more enlightened.
Things like that, when it happens, you know, it's an opportunity for people, society to
learn and go on to somewhere else, you know, move on.
And this is, you know, I mean, we should never be troubled or, you know, feel overly upset
by something bad happening in society, like scandals of any sort, abstractly.
That means, you know, we are moving on, we are able to be aware of issues from which
we can move on from.
One word, one word, one word, maturity.
Hopefully, yeah.
But the other side of me always notice that in Singapore, we always come back to the same
problem.
Well, the optimist in me is hoping that we are, you know, we are more mature than that.
Linguistically.
Hmm.
Okay.
One last thing before we say goodbye, because we've gone on for more than an hour, man.
Wow, that's fast.
Oh yeah.
Looking ahead, are there any projects or themes that you currently excited to explore for
in your future literary endeavors?
Eating the verdict.
Write a story about the Vade, man.
Okay, so what I'm exploring.
Yeah.
As a poet or as a singer translator?
I mean, I'm leaving that open.
Well, I can tell you what I'm doing right now and hopefully, or have done and is coming
out.
Okay.
The one that's done and is coming out and you'll be excited by this.
You know that I have done Little Prince, I've done Peter Rabbit.
Okay.
I have done Grimms.
The next one is now On the Way to Singapore from Germany.
It will be landing by the time this broadcast go up, this podcast go up.
Are you ready for this?
Yeah.
Winnie the Pooh.
You're shitting me.
No.
It's coming out.
Winnie the Pooh, in Singlish.
That is my ultimate challenge because that book, it feels so simple, but there is a lot
of wordplay in it.
Right.
So, to find the equivalent of those wordplay in Singlish was a lot of challenge, but you
need a poet to do this.
So, I think I was the right person in the right place to be able to do this.
But, we need a Pooh.
Yeah.
On TV, in the animation, is Disney, right?
Yeah.
So, why don't you just...
No, no.
This is the text.
I know, I know, I know.
Then they can take that, talk to Disney, and do a Singlish episode of Winnie the Pooh.
Maybe, if the episodes are based on the book.
Right?
Oh yeah.
I'm pretty sure that artists will know what to do.
Maybe, maybe.
So, that's...
Sounds interesting though.
And as a poet, I have a book that's currently being...
I'm editing it, the draft there is.
So, I hope to get it out soon.
It really is a chronicle of my life during the pandemic.
But, not in a boring way.
I think everybody has a kind of...
A pandemic story.
A fatigue, a real of it.
And also a pandemic story, as you say.
But, I think this is about also my journey philosophically about...
I mean, when you're stuck alone at home all the time, and all the questions that...
You know, bug at you, you know.
Yeah, so it's very fundamental questions, and then you see the...
Behaviours of people and all that kind of things.
Oh man, it must have been really bad for you.
One of those that...
Yeah.
Right?
You live alone.
And if you notice, how quickly we forget the pandemic.
By this point of time, we forgot how much we have learned.
And then subsequently unlearn about who we are.
About what is important in life.
What is ultimately important, right?
And about bad human behaviour.
What is a COVID-idiot?
What is an anti-vaxxer?
Those terms, and what negativity attached to those terms.
We have forgotten all those things.
People, the human race in general.
I mean, I think we all got short-term memories.
We all have suffered from a little bit of an amnesia.
Correct.
So I think, I mean, I want to use my poetry for that.
To kind of memorialise that moment.
And specifically the lessons we learned in those moments.
Yeah, so that's the other thing I'm doing.
I can think of the title, man.
Lest We Forget.
Hey, you know what?
That was my original working title.
Really?
But it's not called that now.
But that was exactly my working title.
Really?
Okay.
It's a generational thing, man.
Yeah, it's a generational thing.
No, you can connect, man.
Yeah.
At that point, right?
Yeah, lest we forget.
I always say this.
People, just to end the show.
We talked about literature a lot.
You know, we talked about, then of course we moved into other forms of linguistics.
Another form of linguistics that's our English that we really love and treasure.
But then again, you know, I've spoken about this a couple of times to some people on my shows.
And I've always believed that, you know, if, I mean, God forbid,
I mean, they've gotten rid of his literature from schools.
Don't get rid of history.
Because people, human beings have got such short-term memories that we barely learn from history.
And we keep making the same stupid mistakes.
That's right.
Mankind makes the same stupid mistakes.
So, you know, and that's the reason why we say lest we forget.
I always say that because let's not forget the things that we've been through.
Because only then can we learn how to move forward.
Otherwise, we can't learn how to move forward.
So my worry has always been the schools actually cancel out history, man.
Yeah.
I think that's right, you know, but ultimately the fight is with ourselves, right?
Yeah.
And also in Singapore, we are living in a place that is so easy to forget.
Because all around us, buildings disappear, things that remind us of our childhood disappear,
people we know disappear, you know, whatever.
Change.
Yeah, we're living in a very…
Fast changing.
Other places, you know, the people may change, but the landmark stays.
Singapore, the landmark changes.
Or, you know, the landscape also changes.
That must have affected our being in a way that is profoundly different.
Of course.
I mean, if you look in Facebook, there are a few groups, you know, that have been formed for years.
One is called Nostalgic Singapore or Nostalgia Singapore.
I can't really remember.
Nostalgia Singapore, Nostalgic Singapore.
Yeah.
And they put up pictures of old Singapore, you know.
Even as old as… I mean, really not that old either.
I mean, the old SBS double-deck buses that you know, you know, air-con.
There was back in the day where…
Did you remember you used to sit in front, you know, try to get a seat right in front of the double-deck on top, right?
And then the windows can be opened.
And the windows can be opened, that's right.
And then, you know, things like that.
I mean, and of places that have disappeared, you know, like good old Katong is no longer really Katong anymore, you know.
Katong is like where the Tau Kok Pau used to be sold, you know, is now Broad Z.
You know, it's just Katong shopping centre is going to be razed to the ground, you know.
I mean, yeah.
Does it impact people like you, people like me, and people even older than us?
Yes, I think so.
I think so.
It's sometimes it's just beyond…
It's more than just about preserving our heritage buildings.
It's more than just that.
Yeah.
It's also very dangerous to keep looking back to the past and feeling morbidly sad.
Okay.
There's something about something not healthy about that as well.
Of course.
So we have to strike a balance somehow.
Embracing the new while still reminiscing about the old.
I don't just… not just about reminiscing, you know.
I think it's about respecting.
Respecting old things.
Yeah.
And old realities.
Yeah.
I don't think we have that.
Yeah.
That's why we are so happy with tearing things down.
Yeah.
Taking snapshots of it.
Yeah.
And sending them to NLB for archiving.
Yeah.
The photos there is.
Yeah.
And then think we are respecting the past.
That's not respecting the past.
Yeah, I don't think so either.
I don't think so either.
I mean, just something just… just deserve to have its place and its space.
And, you know, whether or not we feel that it is indeed heritage should not have…
That's not the point.
The point is how do people feel about it?
Hmm.
How the community of people around that area feel about that place.
I think that's important to understand how people feel on the ground, you know, about certain things, about certain places.
Hmm.
Yeah.
But anyway, that's a story for another show.
So…
If I'm coming back.
Yeah.
Only if there's more VEDA…
No, always be, man.
…or this is delicious.
Oh, believe me, I will tell.
Okay.
Gordon's Vadez.
Thank you so very much once again.
Guy is loving it.
And let me tell you, if you guys don't order Gordon Vadez, something's wrong with you.
You haven't tried the best Vadez there is in Singapore.
Really, really.
And I've had the pleasure of having you with me in studio, in CCTV TV, on the CHC show.
Dr. Guili Swee.
And it's been a real, real nice riveting conversation.
Thank you so very much.
I mean, not always I have an academic on my show, man.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'll turn the others around.
I think a lot of the things you say, man, will fit, fit, especially the first part of the program.
You don't have to talk about that now.
I don't know why you really want to talk about that.
No, I wanted to because I think poetry, literature, should be, you know, people, the ordinary
man, ordinary Singaporean, should really give it a shot, not be intimidated by it, you know.
Oh, yeah.
So it's my way of promoting this.
Okay, okay.
You know, of having people to really embrace literature.
And like you said, even some schools have cut it out.
No, it's not, as I said, it's not a bad thing.
I know, I know.
If you can just go into it with an original, fresh pair of eyes, that's the best way.
Which is what I'm trying to do, you know, to get people to really look at it like reading
the papers every day as you said just now.
Anyway, I tell you, this is going to go on to tomorrow morning if I don't end the show
right now.
It's been a great pleasure, Gui.
Thank you so very much for being here with me.
People, whenever you do, stay safe.
I'll see you again.
Okay.
Watch out for this episode and for the next one because the next one, the next one, the
next one is, is, is again about ET.
This time, we've got the videos in Singapore, shot in Singapore to prove it.
Catch us then for episode three as well.
What?
Yep.
Bye-bye everyone.
Say bye.
Bye.