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And so I said okay I'll write you an article in Singlish. Okay. And I did not expect the article to be criticized by the PMO.

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I mean, come on, it's just Singlish. So they wrote, so they responded to the article by writing to New York Times itself.

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So it was also published as the reply to my article saying that I have trivialized the teaching of English in Singapore.

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Thank you for joining us again for the second season and this is the second episode of the Chris Hansen Conversation.

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I'm back in studio. I'm so happy to be back and I'm so happy to give you another episode this time with a prolific poet, an academic and a literary critic.

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I have with me in studio, Dr. Gui Lee Sui. Say hi.

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Hi Chris. The voice, the man. Finally to have met you.

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Yes, yes. Pleasure is all mine. Also thank you for being here. I've always wanted to meet you. I read your stuff all the time online.

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And I said this guy, really man, you know.

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Not a lot of cock right?

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A lot of cock.

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Yeah, I'm sorry if you wanted to look for something intellectual on my Facebook page. Never exist.

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Well, not really. Sometimes it's a little bit too cheap. I gotta go scratch my head a little bit. I don't understand what this man is saying. You know why?

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Because Gui Lee Sui has a PhD in English.

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Literature.

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Okay, same thing.

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18th century.

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Not the same thing right?

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Yes and no. I mean, I think these days they do call it English right?

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Well yeah.

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Language and literature is quite separate. So if you could be a language PhD person, it has nothing to do really with the literary things.

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Fuck, I'm lost. Okay, explain that again to me. You said 18th century literature?

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Like what? Give me an example.

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Yeah, like Jonathan Swift, Alexander Pope, that sort of stuff. The kind of things that you know, that was pre-Singapore.

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All these people, all the names you just mentioned, I don't know whether or not they all catch any ball.

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I also don't know.

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Jonathan Swift and gang.

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Yes.

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Okay, so what's the difference man? 18th century literature compared to say modern classics, is it? Am I right to say that?

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I think it's like before poetry reads more modern. I mean these days we are used to a kind of more conventional style of writing poetry.

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And also a more democratic way of thinking about the poetic voice. But at the time, it's entirely different in a way.

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So it's not just learning about literature in what I'm doing, it's learning about the times, the influences of the times.

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And specifically actually at the time my study was on get ready, it's on scientific influence.

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How science actually entered into the English literature and then spread to I guess German literature and European literature.

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And how it changed the way you use a metaphor, it changed the way you think about self.

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And all that.

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Damn chimp man.

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20 years ago already.

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Can I move to something that's not so chimp first?

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I tell you what I'm going to do.

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First of all, not so chimp are these five little munchkins on this plate.

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These ladies and gentlemen, they are called vadets and they are from Gordon's Vadets.

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They are the crispiest, fluffiest, oh yeah damn straight man, damn straight.

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The fluffiest, crispiest damn vadets you can find in the land.

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And I'd like to say thank you to Gordon's Vadets, thank you Vijay again, once again.

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You're really spoiling us and feel free.

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Okay, during the shoot, please, please just whack the fuzz.

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Just whack?

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Just whack, don't worry.

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Okay, let me get back to this topic again.

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What you just said to me is like, went right over my head man, way over my head.

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So this is definitely younger than Shakespeare of course.

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No, no, no.

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No, older?

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What the fuck is wrong with this?

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They're not young at all.

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I mean, they're like, I mean, yes.

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17th, 18th century, 1700s right?

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This is after Shakespeare.

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Younger.

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Yeah, I know, but not younger in the sense of, you know.

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It's not older.

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Younger than Shakespeare, but you know, it doesn't, the writing doesn't feel contemporary or it feels dated.

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So in many ways, a lot of the writers at the time, they don't survive to today, you know.

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And if you get some, I mean, even actually, come think of it, even Shakespeare,

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if you get like school kids to read Shakespeare, they hate it right?

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Because it's like, what kind of English is this?

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Verse and prose.

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Cannot understand, see me, see me sigh, you know.

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You know, they don't appreciate, they need to have that kind of like parallel explanation, you know.

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Right.

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That in most of these Shakespeare books, they like that, right?

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So I think that kind of density to the writing, it went until, as I said, 18.

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And then after that, you don't actually need the notes anymore.

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There's interesting things that happen with the romantic onwards, you know.

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You can actually read the poems and you can understand it.

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Can I, can I, again, but I'm going to ask you, why?

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Why did you choose to do a PhD?

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In 18th century literature, yeah.

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I also, I also wonder, but at that time I had a question to ask.

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I mean, my, my masters and my honours thesis were not even on 18th century,

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though on German literature, 20th century German literature.

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Okay.

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Can I ask, German literature is in German?

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Yes.

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And you-

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I did in translations, because it's after all in the English department.

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So I had to do this.

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I mean, really I was forced to-

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So it's a style of how it's done, German literature,

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that you actually studied in English and you understood the styling.

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Yeah, but specifically, I mean, when I went to PhD, there was a question,

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there were a few nagging questions that I wanted to answer.

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And I feel like I have to go back to what happened, what happened to the voice,

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what happened to the whole question of why do art, why do literature, you know?

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Because the whole ethical dimension became parameterized

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because of the Nazis in German literature.

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So in the mid 20th century, the Germans do, I mean, the writers do

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ask quite a lot about that, you know, what is the responsibility of writing,

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you know, when our high culture could produce something like Nazism.

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Right.

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You know, so is there something flawed in art?

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Is there something problematic, you know, considering that there's this humanist,

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positivist development in Western culture up to that point?

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So I thought I should go to the start of the Enlightenment, you know,

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which is the 18th century or actually late 17th century,

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and see whether there's, you know, something I can...

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So it was literally out of curiosity.

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Out of curiosity, yeah.

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So, I mean, if you're going to do something like a PhD,

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there has to be a life-changing question you want to explore.

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But many people would actually pursue other things that could be life-changing,

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but this is in literature.

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True, like MBA.

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What's the PhD of an MBA?

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I have no freaking clue, man.

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I don't know what's the name of that, but anyway, yeah, yeah.

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So I don't know, I mean, it was just something I did,

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because I felt like if I answered that question, I would know what to do next.

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And you were enlightened.

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And I don't know what to do next.

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Are you all charred?

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Okay, anyway, don't do PhD.

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If you can, it will not get you a job, you know.

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It got me one for a while.

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You just made me laugh, I got so bad.

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You know, but that's the whole point, right?

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If you want to do something like a PhD, you know, you better make sure that

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you have enough drive in you to, you know, to pursue it to the end.

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Yeah, sure, but the thing is, Gui, is that people who pursue a PhD,

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okay, okay, fine, maybe because there is, of course, there's got to be some kind of drive,

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but when you thinking, you and I are the same age, we come from the same generation.

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When you're thinking about what am I going to do with my life after I'm done with this PhD,

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am I going to be able to do something that, you know, at least will make my money and time spent,

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you know, worthwhile in a career?

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Yeah, but at the time, I think the immediate thing was I got scholarships,

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so I was like, hey, you know, this is free to extend, you know, the next few years,

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it could be just thinking and writing for free.

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Okay.

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I mean, not for free, but you get some stipend,

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you could do this, you know, and you better do it when you're young, because when you're old,

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sure, you know, you probably fall asleep.

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Okay, so you didn't see this as an opportunity for you to do something

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or to forge a career in front of you that's going to be great?

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I think it was a step-by-step thing.

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The scholarship came with, you know, a bond.

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Yes, with a bond.

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Right.

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So I had to serve that.

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So I was thinking like, yeah, you know, I'll just go along, you know, if it takes me.

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Where do you serve the bond? With who?

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NUS.

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Oh, you serve the bond in NUS?

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Yeah, I served the bond in NUS.

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It was a five-year bond, but I think I was there for all together.

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I was there until the end of 2010.

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Right.

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I think 2009-ish I left.

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So you went back to teach?

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Now?

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No, at that time.

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Yes, after I came back from London, that's where I did my PhD in Queen Mary.

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Originally it was Queen Mary and Westfield, and by the time I came out, it was Queen Mary.

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So yeah, even that, I have an existential crisis.

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When you get a PhD, well, it depends on when you're asking me this question.

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You wrote a book, man, Fear No Poetry.

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Yeah.

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Do you really think the Singaporeans fear poetry?

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Okay, that book is quite interesting because I did it because there was, I mean, they wanted to create, they wanted us to write, not just me, I think Pooja Nancy is the other person,

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to write books that would help school kids appreciate poetry.

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And mine was supposed to be on the higher level, there's supposed to be addressed, I mean Pooja is supposed to address a kind of lower sect or something like this.

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So that was the division, but I felt I didn't just want to write something for school kids.

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So I did write that book to address anyone who really is interested in understanding poetry and feel nonetheless very threatened by it.

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So there's this very odd relationship people have with poetry.

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It's intimidating.

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They want to read it, but they know that when they read it, they don't quite understand it.

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Yeah, so it becomes intimidating.

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Yeah, but they don't understand also that when you feel intimidated, you tend to see more in the poetry, in the poem than there is there.

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Actually, it's very simple, it's just treated as what it's saying, and then don't have all these expectations.

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But are we supposed to, pardon me if I'm using the wrong term, are we supposed to discern what the poem is trying to tell you?

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Yeah, but come to it with a clean slate, come with no expectations like you're just reading the morning paper, you know, pick up and wonder, okay, what's today's news, right?

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So you go to a poem, it's like that, you don't go into it, just, okay, let's hear what it's about.

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Rather than have an idea, okay, this poem is titled Love, I have all these preconceptions about love, okay, I'm going to bring it, and then the poem is going to fight with my idea of love.

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You know, if you do that, the poem is going to come out very weird, you know, your understanding of what the poet, the writer is trying to say will come out very weird.

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So I mean, I think that's the gist of the book, basically to encourage people to just relax when they're reading, you know.

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After you read, you sit on it a while and see whether the sense comes to you before you do the interpreting.

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And the funny thing about that book was that it has continued to sell until this day, and so it's like what, more than a decade really since I wrote that book.

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So I think it consistently surprised me how well received still this book is.

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I think the person who wrote that book, the me who wrote that book may disagree with some things I said there, but I'm glad that it has its own life, you know.

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Well, yeah, great. Have you ever discovered who were these people over the last, what, 10 years, the people have been buying, who are these people?

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, I do know teachers.

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Okay, I'm not surprising.

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Yeah, teachers who actually themselves feel pressured because they have to teach poetry.

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Right.

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And they don't know how to come at it because they themselves also have been struggling with this, right?

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I'm not surprised by that too, yeah.

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So I think a good chunk would be teachers and students, I think also because the teachers recommend it.

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And I've seen it on certain schools' reading lists, actually.

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And then there are people like retirees or, you know, professionals of other sorts who are really interested in reading poetry and then, you know, wanting to get a handle into what is it about.

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So it's more like they treat it and I think rightly so as a kind of idiot's guide to enjoying poetry.

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So do you think therefore, based on what you just told me?

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And I meant it a good way. I mean, I don't mean that the person who read it is an idiot.

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I mean, as in like it's an unthreatening way to come to poetry.

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You being too polite, regardless, any idiot can pick it up and still be an idiot and, you know, still after trying to understand how you're trying to understand it and they might still not get it, they're still idiots.

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But it's, no, I think one thing is that in the book I tried to write it in a simple style, right? And also to be passionate about it. And secondly, to say that actually, you know, really it's okay to bring your own meaning to reading a poem.

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But just be aware that if you want to discuss the poem in an educational context, in a social context, then it's a different way of reading.

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You know, it's like if you have your own opinion about Singapore politics, that is very different from having an educated or serious social discussion about politics.

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Because the second one will require you to be one right about the facts or you'll get pofma, right?

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So in poetry it's the same, you know, if you don't get the facts right, you know, if the poem use the metaphor of a blue sun and then you turn it into a metaphor of a blue tiger or something like this, whatever, right?

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That is factually wrong already, you know, so you cannot just do it.

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So that's why it's intimidating. People's exposure to poetry would largely come from people who are in the humanities.

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And the introduction of poetry probably in secondary school and maybe JC.

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And then when they go into it, it's right or wrong.

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Yeah, okay. That's right. And they're marked for it. So it becomes a subject.

215
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:20,680
Yeah. It no longer becomes something that people can really enjoy. Correct. So is poetry dead in Singapore?

216
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:37,680
No, I think if anything, it's well and alive. And this is very strange in poetry of all the art forms, all the literary forms in Singapore remains the more consistently popular, you know, as opposed to the others that has waves.

217
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:43,680
I mean, novels, you know, these waves and there's a time when nobody wrote novels and then now it's like a lot, right?

218
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:53,680
It's a wave in our drama. Also, it's like, you know, it's wave in and out. But poetry has been consistent, you know, and that's something very interesting about not just Singapore.

219
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:59,680
I think people tend to observe this with in general new nations. Right.

220
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:08,680
You know, the rise, the interest, the fascination with language and what you can do with language often tends to be the driving force in the culture.

221
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:18,680
Sure. But you see, that's because you're in that world on this planet. You're in that world. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people like us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

222
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,680
Yeah. We are not. We don't see the visibility of it. Yeah. Because we're not in your world.

223
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:32,680
So don't you think, therefore, that more can be done to have people appreciate poetry? Yeah. Anyone. Anyone for that matter.

224
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:41,680
Okay. As long as you've got basic education and you can try to grow from simple little ones, you know, simple little rhymes and moving forward.

225
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:50,680
So but you don't see that visibility anywhere, even in our mainstream media or in the press and print media, which if you can call it. Yes, I agree.

226
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:58,680
To a certain extent, we must remember that poetry is in songs, poetry is in jingles. Right. And this is all there in popular culture.

227
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:06,680
It's just that we don't identify with what we imagine poetry ought to be, which is the kind of high poetry that you don't understand. Right.

228
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:14,680
So this is something very weird. We put poetry into a kind of, you know, in the box and say this is poetry. The other things are not poetry. Exactly.

229
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:24,680
And then we say that we don't understand this thing. I completely concur because music, right? Music, songs, lyrics, yeah, poetry. It's poetry. Yeah.

230
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:32,680
But a lot of people don't see it that way. Okay. Fuck. That's why that's why hip hop. Is that poetry?

231
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:44,680
Yeah, especially. You think so? Yeah. Yeah. The writing. I mean, if you see some poetry, I mean, more recent ones, I guess there are certain influences that you can tie to hip hop.

232
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:54,680
And, you know, even Taylor Swift, you know, her writing, there's a very strong poetic elements there, which is what is often highlighted as, you know, what is so clever about her writing. Right.

233
00:18:54,680 --> 00:19:00,680
So I think we, I mean, for me, I'm a very liberal about the definition of poetry. Some poets are not. Let's put it this way.

234
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:11,680
Some poets are precisely the ones who say that poetry is what is in this box. Right. Anything outside of this box, you know, we don't consider that poetic. Right.

235
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:26,680
No, I'm not too sure about that. You know, poetry can be in a lot of things. It's not necessarily even in words. Yeah. You know, a painting can be poetic. Yeah. A way of thinking can be poetic. Yeah. A way of seeing the world can be poetic. Yeah.

236
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:35,680
You know, I mean, so that's the most general way of going. But if you're going to look at language and what poetry does with language, you know, then it's a certain direction.

237
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:50,680
And then with poetry that is on written page or in the traditional way of thinking what poetry is, I guess that is primarily tied to written, you know, at this stage is also the oral dimension, the performed poetry, you know, the slam and all that.

238
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,680
You know, that is the what? Sorry? Slam poetry? Have you heard about it? No. What's that?

239
00:19:54,680 --> 00:20:15,680
Ah, that's well, that's a kind of performed poetry where, you know, they get on stage and then they recite, you know, and they perform the recital and all and then people clap. It's not so much a written form. It's to revive the form of poetry that is tied really to how our old cultures used to be where poetry is oral.

240
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:28,680
Right. And there's theater to it. Yes, yes. There's theater that's performed. It's also rituals, you know, it's also tied to rituals of what culture means or frustration or about some mysteries like a great tragedies and all that kind of stuff.

241
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:35,680
Right. I mean, anyway, there's that oral dimension that I guess this trend tried to recoup.

242
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:36,680
Right.

243
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:46,680
You know, whereas I think for us in a traditional way, in a way we thought in schools, they are tied to textual understanding of what poetry ought to be.

244
00:20:46,680 --> 00:21:00,680
Yeah. So do you think something ought to be done on that level where in schools to get kids to really be interested in poetry rather than, you know, looking at it as an English literature subject is weighted, is graded?

245
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:08,680
Okay. This thing is passe because I don't think most schools teach literature anymore.

246
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:09,680
What?

247
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:23,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. We are the same age. So I understand what you're going through now as a trauma realizing this. Yeah, yeah, but it's been a long many years now. I know schools that actually teach literature as a subject are not the norm.

248
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:24,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

249
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,680
My son's school, which was my school, still teaching literature.

250
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,680
Are you up your school? St. Panc? Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's great.

251
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,680
But I can tell you a lot of schools don't and because it's an option that is open to the schools, right?

252
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:36,680
Holy crap.

253
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:49,680
To choose, right? And then the teachers have to think about like, is my kids going to perform? And they're not going to pick up literature because literature is one subject where you cannot predict how the students are going to perform.

254
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:50,680
How do you feel about that?

255
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,680
Actually, I'm fine.

256
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,680
Huh? Why?

257
00:21:53,680 --> 00:22:00,680
For the same reasons as you said just now, right? All these problems of trying to teach kids about all these things, now, blank slate.

258
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:01,680
Right.

259
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:02,680
We are back to that.

260
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,680
Interesting.

261
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,680
I love it. I love it when kids have no preconceived ideas of what poetry means, what literature means.

262
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:09,680
And they pick it up leisurely.

263
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,680
And they pick it up and they just read it for what it is.

264
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:12,680
Yeah.

265
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:21,680
And then they say, okay, I enjoy these poems. I like it. Not because the teacher said so, not because the curriculum said so, you know, not some dead white man said so.

266
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,680
It's because I like it.

267
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:40,680
Can I ask you, if that say for these schools that don't offer literature anymore, will it, in your opinion, impact the strength of vocabulary for our youth as they grow into society? Is it going to impact them in any way?

268
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,680
Is English going to get worse?

269
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:43,680
No, not really.

270
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,680
It's really quite fucking bad now.

271
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:52,680
Yeah, but personally, I don't think literature alone will solve that issue.

272
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,680
No, of course, but it's part and parcel of it.

273
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,680
It's also, you know, removing it is not a good idea.

274
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:07,680
Newspaper standards, you know, internet article standards, you know, all these things, you know, they are consuming this all the time, much more than books.

275
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:08,680
True.

276
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:16,680
If we turn the clock back and get people to read books, then we can talk about getting them to read literature. But now it's going the other direction.

277
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:17,680
They're going online and all.

278
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,680
And, you know, yes, poetry and all has gone online as well.

279
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:22,680
Yeah, but it's just going to get worse, isn't it?

280
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,680
I mean, right now, even headlines are so damn wrong.

281
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:32,680
And in the next 10, 15 years, you're going to have new young journalists coming in and screwing up even more.

282
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:39,680
Because they're not even reading literature.

283
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:40,680
You know what I mean?

284
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:47,680
Yeah, yeah, but I think again, I think there's language standards and there's literary standards.

285
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:48,680
I think we are now.

286
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,680
So you're saying the two separate things.

287
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,680
Yeah, the two separate things, not necessarily separate.

288
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:55,680
They are intermingled.

289
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,680
But I'm just saying there are two elements.

290
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:09,680
And I think the literary standards is really tied to creativity play that is involved in what you understand is possible with the words that you have in your vocabulary.

291
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:10,680
Right.

292
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,680
But the language is the fundamental one.

293
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:23,680
You know, if your language strength is not there, if your grasp use of the English language is not strong enough, your literary, there's also a limit to what you can do literally.

294
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,680
I mean, it's not to say that if you have bad or low standard English, you cannot write a great literary work.

295
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:34,680
That's entirely not true because some writers with very limited English can write amazing, creative work.

296
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:35,680
How does that happen?

297
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,680
Because it's creativity.

298
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:43,680
It's the way you think, the way you try to individualize a point that you feel or feeling you have.

299
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,680
And that makes the word work literature.

300
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,680
But how do you translate that?

301
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,680
I mean, if your English is not so good.

302
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:56,680
I can tell you that some of the some writers in Singapore, some poets in Singapore are not trained in literature.

303
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,680
You know, they can be engineers, they can be computer science people, and they write fantastically.

304
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,680
So basically, they're like composers of music.

305
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:10,680
You can be you might not be so educated, but you might not know how to play piano or guitar, you know, and then you can still sing well, right?

306
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,680
Or write words into lyrics.

307
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:13,680
Yeah, yeah.

308
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,680
But language is the issue.

309
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,680
I think primarily the thing that schools can do is get the language right.

310
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:27,680
You know, you know, they have to find a way to get the kids to learn English properly.

311
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,680
And don't OK, coming to my other favorite topic, Singlish.

312
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,680
Don't always write Singlish.

313
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,680
You know, it's not nothing to do with Singlish.

314
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,680
You know, Singlish is another thing.

315
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,680
It's another language.

316
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,680
If your kids English are not good, maybe you should teach them proper English.

317
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,680
Tell them not to speak Singlish because if they start speaking Singlish, they will learn the other things.

318
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:53,680
They will learn the ghetto language in America.

319
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,680
They can learn from the K-pop.

320
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,680
They can learn all sorts of other stuff they pick around, you know, and they don't have to.

321
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,680
Those are not Singlish, but still those will not help them improve their English.

322
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

323
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:11,680
I need to tell all the viewers and listeners this Dr. Guili Swee doesn't just have a PhD in English literature.

324
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,680
He is also the granddaddy for Singlish man in Singapore.

325
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,680
I'm not a granddaddy.

326
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,680
The grandmother is Sylvia Tlopak Pichu.

327
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:22,680
Pichu.

328
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

329
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,680
OK.

330
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,680
I have to acknowledge her because she's the...

331
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:27,680
No, she did it in the 80s.

332
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,680
She's a grandma for Singlish.

333
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:30,680
Yes.

334
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,680
And then after that, there are a few other people who have done it, right?

335
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,680
Colin Goh has done the, what's that, the dictionary with his wife.

336
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,680
Right.

337
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,680
And then there's also, what's his name?

338
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:41,680
Mel.

339
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,680
Mel has drawn a comic book that is Singlish.

340
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,680
I mean, people have done it through the years.

341
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,680
OK.

342
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,680
Mine is just accumulation of all the efforts.

343
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,680
I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.

344
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,680
So you're the uncle.

345
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,680
Uncle, uncle, uncle.

346
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,680
I'm the latest update.

347
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:55,680
The latest update.

348
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,680
Yeah, latest version.

349
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,680
I feel for me with that, at least that Speking Singlish book.

350
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:01,680
Yeah.

351
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,680
The idea is to go to the next level, the next logical level.

352
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,680
Can you put up Speking Singlish for me, please?

353
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:08,680
Speking Singlish.

354
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,680
Let's put it up, let's put it up.

355
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:11,680
Let the world see.

356
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:12,680
There you go.

357
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,680
A companion to how Singaporeans communicate.

358
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:16,680
Yeah.

359
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,680
Can you see that symbol, the talking head symbol?

360
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:20,680
Yeah.

361
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:21,680
Do they look familiar?

362
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:22,680
Pac-Man.

363
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:23,680
No, not Pac-Man.

364
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,680
Pac-Man what?

365
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,680
It's for the speak good Mandarin from our youth.

366
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,680
Holy shit.

367
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,680
So I know they have two talking heads, right?

368
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,680
But I thought that's not very multicultural or multiracial, you know?

369
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:35,680
OK.

370
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:36,680
They have to be different color.

371
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,680
So is Singlish Creole or Pidgin?

372
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,680
It was, you know?

373
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,680
It was.

374
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:45,680
But we have gone beyond that.

375
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:52,680
Because a Pidgin is really a speech form that is basic,

376
00:27:52,680 --> 00:28:00,680
that is a beginner's language, you know, a simple child's language.

377
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,680
You know, when your kids start to speak, you know, it's a very rudimentary form.

378
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,680
Right.

379
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,680
Whereas I think over the years, Singlish has become this overblown thing.

380
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,680
Overblown how?

381
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:11,680
In what way?

382
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,680
We don't have a dictionary.

383
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:20,680
Even Colin and Yen-Yen's book has contained everything.

384
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,680
In fact, it has been superseded.

385
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,680
The language has doubled, tripled.

386
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,680
It's gone so big that...

387
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:27,680
Evolved?

388
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:28,680
Yes, it has evolved.

389
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:29,680
And also the meanings have changed.

390
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,680
You know, every time you listen, you'll hear a new...

391
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,680
I mean, I won't say like every few months you listen, you'll hear a new permutation,

392
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,680
either a new meaning or a new word will come in.

393
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:45,680
For example, something that came in, I only started hearing like two years or three years ago.

394
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,680
If I had been around long enough, but I don't have enough Chinese speaking friends around me

395
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:56,680
to have observed how long he has made inroads into the English speaking or Singlish speaking word.

396
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,680
The word pa, pa, you know?

397
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,680
You know, we have lama.

398
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,680
Oh, pa.

399
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,680
Oh, I know pa.

400
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:04,680
I know pa.

401
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,680
It's like, what's this pa?

402
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,680
Then I realize, oh, it's the Chinese pa, you know?

403
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,680
Yeah, yeah, pa.

404
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:10,680
Yeah.

405
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,680
But at some point, he has made inroads into Singlish.

406
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:21,680
I've noticed in the last year or so, my wife sometimes ends a sentence with pa.

407
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,680
Yeah.

408
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:29,680
So this is very unconscious, which is great, because there are words that people try to consciously force into Singlish.

409
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:36,680
And because it's done consciously and it therefore doesn't really relate to daily life, you know, they fall off.

410
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:43,680
But there's some like this that come in naturally and people use it because they understand the context in which the word is used

411
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,680
unconsciously and then they just replicate it and it becomes Singlish, you know?

412
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,680
That's the thing that you have to observe.

413
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:56,680
For me, I sit in Kopitiam all the time and much of my hearing problem has to do with like eavesdropping too much on people, you know,

414
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,680
which is what I do a lot.

415
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:08,680
You know, so if there's an uncle down there with his ear, you know, uncomfortably close to you in a Kopitiam, that's me.

416
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,680
Uncle Gui?

417
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,680
Yeah, yeah.

418
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:11,680
Kepo Gui.

419
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:12,680
Singlish with Uncle Gui.

420
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:19,680
Yeah, so if you ask me what's my authority, I say Kopitiam is the authority.

421
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:28,680
What's your take on, you know, I mean, for example, I've spoken about this in my previous podcast show with Grimit.

422
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,680
He was on my show then.

423
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:30,680
Grimit?

424
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:31,680
Grimit Sang.

425
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:32,680
Yeah.

426
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,680
And of course we got into the topic of PCK.

427
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,680
I acted in an episode of PCK.

428
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:37,680
Yes.

429
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,680
Oh, you know.

430
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:39,680
Yes, come on.

431
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,680
Oh gosh.

432
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,680
You have an unforgettable face.

433
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,680
Oh, Lord.

434
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:44,680
Together with the voice.

435
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,680
Okay.

436
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,680
Don't know whether that's a good thing or not.

437
00:30:47,680 --> 00:31:02,680
But and you know, it really pained me then, I recall, when all of a sudden PCK became so tame in terms of the usage of Singlish.

438
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:13,680
And I think it became a subject for a bit, if you recall, in community, you know, and where it seems like Singlish is kind of frowned upon.

439
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:14,680
Yes.

440
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:24,680
And discouraged to be used because some people believe that it actually was the word for it.

441
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:32,680
It's too informal, it puts your English, the command of your English language into question.

442
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,680
Yes.

443
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,680
And then you just basically, proper English, standard English is just going to diminish.

444
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,680
So what's your take on that, man?

445
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,680
Yeah, you mentioned a lot of things in just those few lines.

446
00:31:46,680 --> 00:32:01,680
Firstly, historically, actually, there's always been a sector that's against Singlish or not comfortable with Singlish, you know, and trying to make it less popular.

447
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:09,680
They're not going to succeed because they are definitely on the wrong side of history based on how Singlish has been progressing.

448
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:10,680
Okay.

449
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,680
You know, it's natural, you know, you can't stop something that people are doing unconsciously.

450
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:14,680
Right.

451
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:25,680
You can't stop it only if they know what they are doing, you know, but you know, Singlish, I think since the, was it 70s or 80s that, you know, the MOE has already made it a point at that time.

452
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:32,680
I think, I believe it was Deng Soon, who was the Minister of Education at the time, who said that you cannot use Singlish in schools.

453
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,680
The university has actually already been researching into Singlish as early as the 70s.

454
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:38,680
Right.

455
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:49,680
So, that was the kind of rule that has been in place until today, that is in most contexts, educational contexts, you don't use Singlish.

456
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,680
You have to use English, which is fine.

457
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,680
But then that translates into Singlish then becoming something you use outside.

458
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,680
Right.

459
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:07,680
And that's for the longest time, and some linguists are now making the proposal that we ought to do something about it, is that we do not differentiate between Singlish and bad English.

460
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:15,680
When you ought to, because if you want to teach people to speak English, then you have to teach them what the proper rules of English is.

461
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:16,680
Yes.

462
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,680
And by definition of what the proper rules of English is, you know what is bad Singlish.

463
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:27,680
But that may not be Singlish, because Singlish rules are not the same as bad English rules.

464
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,680
Okay, wait, wait, there are Singlish rules.

465
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:30,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

466
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,680
We all know what sounds Singlish and what doesn't sound Singlish, right?

467
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,680
Okay, I mean, yeah, but you're saying Singlish rules.

468
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,680
I mean, we know the English language has got definitive sets of rules.

469
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:40,680
Yeah.

470
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:41,680
Right?

471
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,680
But where are the definitive sets of rules for Singlish?

472
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,680
Well, that's the thing, because English had centuries of development.

473
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:49,680
Right.

474
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,680
Right?

475
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:59,680
It is able to not just refine itself to a clarity what its grammar is, but also have people able to articulate what those grammar is.

476
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,680
Singlish didn't have that long.

477
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,680
You know, in terms of language, it is still a baby.

478
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:03,680
Right.

479
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,680
Right?

480
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:11,680
It is a baby where we now somehow know what the rules are, but we have not yet learned how to articulate the rules.

481
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,680
And the rules themselves are still changing.

482
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:21,680
Now, for example, if you drop your pen, right, you say, go where?

483
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:22,680
Right?

484
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:23,680
I mean, pen go where?

485
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:24,680
Pen go where?

486
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:25,680
Eat my pen where?

487
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:26,680
Correct.

488
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:27,680
All these are correct form.

489
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,680
But you don't say, wear go pen.

490
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:30,680
Right?

491
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:31,680
Wear go pen is wrong.

492
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,680
You can tell me that that is bad English, I agree with you.

493
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,680
But you tell me that is Singlish, I disagree with you.

494
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,680
Because no Singlish speaker will say that.

495
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,680
You see, so already there is a form.

496
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,680
There is a grammar.

497
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,680
Correct?

498
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:50,680
I agree.

499
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,680
I agree.

500
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:59,680
I'm laughing because for the first time I have someone actually telling me that's bad Singlish.

501
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,680
And there is good Singlish and there is bad Singlish.

502
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:03,680
Yes.

503
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,680
And there is bad English and good English.

504
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,680
I tell you the hypocrisy, man.

505
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,680
The hypocrisy in society.

506
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,680
I have a 14-year-old kid, he is still in school.

507
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:19,680
Then of course, in the course of him growing up, you meet all sets of parents.

508
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:29,680
And I know a lot of parents who tell their kids, they frown upon them even outside of school and outside of official matters.

509
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,680
And he speaks English and they frown in their school and they say stop talking, speaking that way, blah, blah, blah.

510
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,680
Otherwise your English gets bad.

511
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:42,680
I don't think personally that it impacts someone.

512
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:48,680
For example, if I'm going to sit down and write in proper standard English, I'm doing it in proper standard English.

513
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,680
I break away and then I start speaking Singlish.

514
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,680
As you said just now, your English can be bad, it doesn't mean you can't write poetry.

515
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,680
You can actually split the two.

516
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,680
I'm an entertainer.

517
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,680
I go on stage.

518
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,680
I'm going to say, for example, I'll give you an example.

519
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,680
I've been doing this for 37, 38 years.

520
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:14,680
I invite the protocol aspects of a segment of a show program.

521
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,680
You have your guest of honor.

522
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,680
It could be a minister, it could be the president for all that matters.

523
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,680
You introduce and you're proper.

524
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,680
Standard English and you are proper.

525
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:30,680
Then after that, as the night goes on, you have games you play with the ballroom, with the guests and all that.

526
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:31,680
And that's different.

527
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:32,680
And that's different.

528
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,680
And you have to build relatability.

529
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:42,680
You break it down to the language that people can relate to and it will be easier to get them going, easier, faster for them to understand.

530
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:43,680
That's right.

531
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,680
They relate to you and they feel you're just like me, I'm just like you.

532
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,680
And we can laugh together.

533
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,680
And then you break into Singlish.

534
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,680
Once the game's over, you go back into Standard English.

535
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,680
So I think...

536
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,680
And that's a skill.

537
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:06,680
That's a language skill which is important for now and the future.

538
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,680
Gone are the days where mastery of one language is enough.

539
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,680
I think we are underestimating the average Singaporean too much.

540
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,680
I feel, of course, they have to be educated.

541
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,680
Most people are today, right?

542
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,680
At least the last two generations, three generations.

543
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:31,680
You have these guys who I'm saying they've been underestimated.

544
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,680
I believe that they sit down, they write a proper business email.

545
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:35,680
Yeah.

546
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,680
And then while they're doing so, they speak Singlish to their colleague.

547
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:38,680
Correct.

548
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,680
It doesn't necessarily mean that their English is bad.

549
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,680
They cannot do, yes.

550
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:49,680
In my opinion, I think this BS bullshit hypocrisy has got to stop.

551
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:50,680
I agree.

552
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,680
And it's also a kind of hypocrisy of the monolingual.

553
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:02,680
Actually, if you ask me anything, I suspect it's precisely the people who cannot do this kind of things

554
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,680
that feel threatened and say, no, everybody must speak like me.

555
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,680
They cannot do the switching.

556
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:15,680
The thing is, actually, the switching happens on so many levels, especially from our generation onwards.

557
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:22,680
I speak as if we have been around for a long time in this country, compared to our parents' generation,

558
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:28,680
where they have reasons to be, I guess, very proficient in just one language, which I don't think so.

559
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,680
My father, whatever it is, he was still able to speak Malay.

560
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,680
He can speak Mandarin, but he can speak Malay, he can speak Teochew.

561
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,680
And that is also a form of multilingual.

562
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,680
And when he mixed all these things up together, it's still a form of sign language.

563
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:43,680
My dad could speak nine languages.

564
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,680
So as long as we are officially or unofficially...

565
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:48,680
Wait, wait, did you say nine languages?

566
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:49,680
Yes.

567
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,680
Oh my God.

568
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:58,680
Tamil, Japanese, Portuguese, fluently, Malay, Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka.

569
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,680
Oh my gosh.

570
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:01,680
There's two more.

571
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:02,680
English, of course.

572
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:03,680
Wow.

573
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:04,680
There's one more.

574
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,680
If I am not mistaken, Teochew.

575
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,680
Why is it a national treasure?

576
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:11,680
Yeah.

577
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:17,680
And the ability to speak so many languages, put him in good stead, man.

578
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,680
Because as a police officer, you deal with all kinds of races.

579
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:21,680
Oh, Tamil, sorry.

580
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:22,680
Tamil, Tamil.

581
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,680
Yeah, you mentioned that was the number one.

582
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:25,680
Okay.

583
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:26,680
Correct, first one.

584
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,680
So as a cop, right, conducting these investigations,

585
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,680
you can deal with all kinds of witnesses and people that you want to interview and stuff,

586
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,680
and you can speak the language.

587
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:37,680
Yeah.

588
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:38,680
And that to him is very important.

589
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,680
No, but also you're right about that.

590
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:48,680
And also a number of people from different backgrounds that you interact with on a day-to-day basis,

591
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,680
that will also change the way you understand and use language.

592
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:58,680
So that didn't just show how much your father is able to speak all these languages.

593
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,680
It also showed the diversity or the background that your father has been dealing with.

594
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:11,680
No, I think also it is the personal commitment, not dedication,

595
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,680
but personal commitment that, you know, I live in this country,

596
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,680
and there's a myriad worth of dialect groups and races, right?

597
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,680
So it is best that we all be able to communicate together.

598
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,680
It's kampong thing, you know, it's a kampong thing.

599
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:24,680
Correct.

600
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,680
Yeah, but today, when you look at the kids today, even those as the working adults today,

601
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,680
they ask them to break into Hokkien, they can't.

602
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:30,680
Correct.

603
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,680
So I think that's the thing that has changed, you know,

604
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,680
the commitment to understanding the culture, appreciating,

605
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,680
or being part of the culture that you live in.

606
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,680
Right, you see like our Malay is today, right?

607
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:43,680
I mean, fantastic.

608
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,680
So many Malay kids are taking Mandarin, right?

609
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,680
But you don't see many Chinese kids taking Mahasa.

610
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:49,680
That's an issue.

611
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:50,680
Yeah, exactly.

612
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:56,680
But the Malay see that this is an opportunity for them to be able to speak also to Chinese people

613
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,680
and speak fluently in Chinese, right?

614
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,680
But we don't have the Chinese thinking that it's a good opportunity for us to even be speaking in Mahasa.

615
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:10,680
You know, this thing, you can actually see it happening, this split, this siloing,

616
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,680
you can actually see happen in Singlish, which is very interesting

617
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,680
because Singlish is not just something we use normally,

618
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:22,680
it also is a place where you can observe the symptoms that points to the problems that we have in society.

619
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:32,680
The Singlish spoken by particular Chinese communities are not the same as spoken by people with more friends

620
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,680
or adapting more to people from a different background.

621
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,680
And the Singlish that's spoken, let's say, among the Malay communities,

622
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,680
the Singlish are all different.

623
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:48,680
Whereas I remember a time in my youth when the Singlish is more consolidated,

624
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:54,680
when we do happily use each other's words and then we do understand each other's grammar

625
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,680
because it's the same one.

626
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:01,680
But these days it seems to be like certain sectors will use a lot more Hokkien or Chinese words in their Singlish,

627
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:09,680
and then when you bring out a Malay word, they either don't know it or they didn't know it's Malay.

628
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:14,680
Exactly, exactly, exactly. You're quite right there.

629
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,680
And I think the community is stuck in the middle of the Eurasians.

630
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,680
No, Eurasians are the best. They suck at everything.

631
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:30,680
Actually, you're right. If you talk to Eurasians, the Singlish standard hasn't really changed from decades.

632
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,680
It's almost the same because we can break into Hokkien, we can break into Malay.

633
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:41,680
I don't see much difference, but you're very right in your observation when it comes to, say, the Chinese.

634
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:51,680
It's more laced with Chinese words, and the Malays are laced with more Malay words and intermingled with English.

635
00:42:51,680 --> 00:43:00,680
But it's kind of sad because that kind of evolution is something that I don't personally like seeing.

636
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:08,680
It speaks volumes of how maybe perhaps community has become more, instead of coming together,

637
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,680
it's become more of a home with unity based on our creole alone.

638
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,680
Did I say that? I used the term creole.

639
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,680
So you can see the difference. And it's kind of sad also.

640
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:29,680
I think one of the contributing factors could be if you step into a lift

641
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:35,680
and you have a bunch of office workers going in a conversation,

642
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,680
say a group of five people, and amongst the five people is one Malay guy, the rest are Chinese,

643
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:46,680
and they start speaking Mandarin, and that one Malay guy just sitting down there with that group,

644
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,680
and going, what the hell are you talking about?

645
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:49,680
Exactly.

646
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,680
And no one seems to see it that I've got someone else here who doesn't understand,

647
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,680
they cannot partake in this repartee even.

648
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:05,680
And what's also worrying is that if let's say this group of people, then think they can help the situation

649
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,680
by speaking Singlish, but then the Singlish is still not modulated enough

650
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:16,680
because it's still stuck with a certain limited Chinese vocabulary or whatever,

651
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,680
that it's not inclusive, which I feel is unfortunate because again,

652
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,680
we are deviating from what Singlish originally was.

653
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,680
We have to somehow bring the Singlishers back.

654
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,680
I'm quite happy using the word Singlishers because I think it also exists on the high and the low level,

655
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:38,680
as in people with very strong English background, their Singlish is of a certain kind

656
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,680
that is not the same as when I use it in Kopitiam, which is okay.

657
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:49,680
They are still all Singlishers, and we're not going to pretend that it's English.

658
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,680
Gone are the days where we pretend that it's English and say, oh, it's bad English.

659
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:55,680
Let's get away from this.

660
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,680
So the Singlish dictionary right now can be thrown out the window then?

661
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:06,680
No, it's still useful because as I said, I mean, a lot, much is still the same in terms of meaning and content,

662
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,680
but some words have evolved in their meaning and more words have been included.

663
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:16,680
And the thing about language is also that certain words come in and drop out.

664
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,680
So like say there are some words that are very popular at one time,

665
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,680
and then they stop being popular for a long time,

666
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,680
and that doesn't mean that a few years time they might come back into fashion.

667
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,680
Something like stylo-milo, right?

668
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,680
In these days, it seems to have made a comeback.

669
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:32,680
Has it?

670
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:38,680
For 10 over years before, I think it's, you know, I don't hear it.

671
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,680
It's like if you use it, it sounds like your old-fashioned.

672
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,680
You really keep a lookout for these things?

673
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,680
Oh yeah, you listen, you listen, because it's very interesting.

674
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,680
I wonder whether there's anything to do with Halema making Milo popular again,

675
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,680
but it's come in, you know, and sometimes the young people,

676
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,680
they like some of this, the sound of these words, and then they reintroduce it in.

677
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,680
Yeah, it feels good to look at the tongue.

678
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,680
But there's some that really, you know, go out like obit, you know,

679
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,680
if you use the word like obit, obiang, you know.

680
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:06,680
They know we're uncles.

681
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,680
Definitely obit and obiang.

682
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,680
They'll know we're uncles, because we're using it.

683
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:11,680
Yeah, we use it, right?

684
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,680
Like ketuk, ketuk, I ketuk, I ketuk.

685
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,680
What do you mean?

686
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,680
These days, the kids will have no idea what you mean.

687
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,680
Because it's a Malay word, ketuk.

688
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,680
No, but they use hantam, you know, a wag, you know.

689
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,680
Actually hantam is cruder, you know.

690
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,680
Hantam means punch you, to hit you.

691
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:30,680
Ketuk means to give you a little knock, you know.

692
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,680
It's different, it's two different meanings.

693
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,680
If you try to tell them, it's different.

694
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Kai, isn't it Kai? Kai, don't you agree?

695
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,680
Let the people hear you, man.

696
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,680
Hantam and ketuk, right?

697
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,680
Hantam is worse than ketuk, isn't it?

698
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,680
Exactly.

699
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,680
And I asked you earlier about poetry, and I said is poetry dead?

700
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,680
I asked if poetry is dead in Singapore.

701
00:46:53,680 --> 00:47:02,680
I want to ask you now, before I go there, I want to add this little morsel in.

702
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,680
Now that we've got so many naturalised Singaporeans, people formerly from India,

703
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,680
I have to say formerly because they're naturalised,

704
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,680
people formerly say from even Canada or some western country, right?

705
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,680
They're here in Singapore and become Singaporeans,

706
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,680
and they also try to get into Singlish.

707
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,680
They try to, of course, assimilate into community.

708
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:30,680
How do you see Singlish evolving now that we've got more naturalised Singaporeans?

709
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,680
Yes, very good question.

710
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,680
Just like English, I guess, you know, in the history,

711
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:40,680
I always look at that because it's a very good template for how world language evolved.

712
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:46,680
Singlish survived to this day and became international precisely because two,

713
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,680
one, it is multicultural.

714
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,680
It was the various influences that have gone into England, shaped their language,

715
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:55,680
make it what it is.

716
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,680
It is not one person's language.

717
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,680
And two, it is exorbitant.

718
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,680
It absorbs others.

719
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,680
It willingly lets itself be bastardised.

720
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:14,680
So people horrified, for example, especially teachers,

721
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:19,680
that OED, the Oxford English Dictionary, happily embraces Singlish words.

722
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,680
Over the last many years already, every few years,

723
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,680
they will announce a list of Singlish words that they are introducing to OED,

724
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:33,680
and they go, you know, official English speakers of a certain kind will go crazy,

725
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,680
as in like, no, no, you are corrupting the English language.

726
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,680
But English language has always been about corrupting itself.

727
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,680
It's always been absorbing all these words, which is what makes it so powerful.

728
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,680
English also evolves.

729
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,680
Yes. So Singlish, because we don't have something of an authority, of a centre,

730
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:59,680
we don't have like a language centre like French, we don't have an OED like English,

731
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,680
you know, it is very natural in how the words keep circulating and entering and all.

732
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:09,680
There are words that, you know, like Thai or whatever, they come in and we just happily use it.

733
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:16,680
And we happily call it Singlish, use it, and as long as it's within that, that's fine.

734
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,680
It is not so much about whose culture it's from.

735
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:25,680
It's so long as what is used is relevant unconsciously to our way of life.

736
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:31,680
So in that sense, therefore, I know I might as well not ask that question that I wanted to ask you earlier.

737
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,680
Poetry isn't dead in Singapore, according to Guili Swee, and Guili Swee also, I'm going to assume,

738
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,680
is going to say that Singlish also equally is not dead in Singapore.

739
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,680
Singlish isn't dead in Singapore.

740
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,680
Singlish is never dead in Singapore.

741
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,680
Even if it evolves, and it evolves unconsciously, therefore it is still Singlish.

742
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,680
Regardless of where or whoever influence.

743
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:04,680
The form of Singlish is changing in, how should I say, it's just like you and me.

744
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,680
There's essence of you and me that is still there, but if you look at a photo,

745
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:13,680
you don't look like what you were 10, 20, let alone 30, 40 years ago.

746
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:14,680
You still look the same.

747
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:19,680
You know, your height is different, your complexion is different, everything is different.

748
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,680
But the essence is there. It's the same thing with Singlish, you know.

749
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:24,680
The essence is there.

750
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,680
I mean, there are words that are definitely part of the essence because they have never left.

751
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,680
Words like la, words like alamak, you know, those have always been there.

752
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,680
Alamak, you think alamak is still around?

753
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:35,680
Yeah.

754
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:36,680
Really?

755
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:37,680
Yeah.

756
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,680
I don't really hear alamak. I always use alamak.

757
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,680
Okay, but yeah, I hear quite a bit, but I don't know.

758
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,680
What would they say these days if it's not alamak?

759
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:46,680
I have no freaking clue, man.

760
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,680
What lao? Please don't say fu yu, okay? That's Uncle Roger.

761
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:51,680
Fu yu.

762
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:52,680
That's Malaysian.

763
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:53,680
Uncle Roger.

764
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:54,680
That's Manglish.

765
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,680
It's called Manglish?

766
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:57,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

767
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,680
Look, there was a time when Singapore and Malaysia were together, right?

768
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,680
And back at the time, we did speak a form that was quite similar.

769
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:06,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

770
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,680
But when we split, Singlish and Manglish went different routes.

771
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:16,680
Singlish had English as the core stem, and perhaps Malay and Hokkien.

772
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:17,680
Yes.

773
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,680
Manglish made Malay the core stem.

774
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:21,680
Right.

775
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,680
So there are a lot more Malay words, and also the words permuted differently.

776
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:29,680
So the use of la, for example, and our use of la is not the same.

777
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:34,680
You know, the relaek la and our relaek la are also slightly different.

778
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,680
And the way that they – so certain things are quite different, right?

779
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:38,680
Really?

780
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

781
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:41,680
Very wonderful one.

782
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:42,680
My – permensiasuikan.

783
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:43,680
Have you heard of it?

784
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:44,680
What?

785
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:45,680
Permensiasuikan.

786
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,680
No.

787
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:47,680
That means sia-swee la.

788
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,680
But they have this done in the Malay form.

789
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:51,680
Permat?

790
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:52,680
Permen – or sia-swee-kwan.

791
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:53,680
Sia-swee.

792
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:54,680
Sia-swee-kan.

793
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:55,680
Sia-swee-kan.

794
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:56,680
Permen sia-swee-kan.

795
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:57,680
Okay.

796
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:58,680
That's definitely not Singlish.

797
00:51:58,680 --> 00:51:59,680
It's Manglish.

798
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:00,680
Manglish.

799
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,680
You see, but there are things that we say that is not the same as – there are things

800
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:05,680
that are shared.

801
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:06,680
There are things that are shared, you know?

802
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:08,680
There are things like relax la, whatever we share.

803
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,680
Singlish is still sexier.

804
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:19,680
It's also because we have – it's sexier also because we have – how should I say?

805
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:27,180
We have been in a way – Singlish speakers have been – has been suffering a lot more

806
00:52:27,180 --> 00:52:31,680
than Manglish speakers because in Malaysia they don't actually make that a national

807
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:32,680
issue.

808
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:33,680
Yeah.

809
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,260
So it's able to, you know, survive and –

810
00:52:37,260 --> 00:52:38,260
Free flow.

811
00:52:38,260 --> 00:52:39,680
Free flow and run and evolve.

812
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:45,360
Whereas we have become in a way – we are forced to be a bit more defensive, reactive

813
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,360
about Singlish because there's always this debate about Singlish.

814
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:49,360
Right.

815
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:55,520
You know, and I'm not sure whether it's a more natural way of developing, but it's

816
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,680
definitely a very Singaporean way in which Singlish developed.

817
00:52:58,680 --> 00:52:59,680
Yeah.

818
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:00,680
Okay.

819
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,680
Still on the topic of Singlish, man.

820
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:09,920
I mean, you became the first literary – well, what you did for the first literary classic

821
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:11,680
to appear in Singlish.

822
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:12,680
Oh, oh.

823
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:13,680
I didn't bring today.

824
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:14,680
Little Tengku.

825
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:15,680
The Little Tengku.

826
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:16,680
The Little Tengku.

827
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:21,680
Can we flash that on the screen please, Kai?

828
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:22,680
Yay.

829
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:23,680
The Little Tengku.

830
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,600
So tell me, this one is a classic.

831
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,680
I can't even pronounce the French dude's name, man.

832
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:29,680
How do you pronounce it?

833
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:30,680
Antoine de – de – yes.

834
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:32,680
Es-se-pre.

835
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:33,680
What?

836
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,680
You don't even know?

837
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:37,680
Es-se-pre.

838
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:38,680
Es-se-pre.

839
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:39,680
Es-se-pre.

840
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:40,680
Okay.

841
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:41,680
It's a French word.

842
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:42,680
Well, yeah.

843
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:43,680
Obviously.

844
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:48,680
Just because I can spell it doesn't mean I can pronounce it.

845
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,680
So I should not have listened to you anyway.

846
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,680
So I can't pronounce that to save my freaking life, man.

847
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:55,680
Es-se-pre.

848
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:56,680
Okay, this dude, Nero –

849
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:57,680
This dude, this pilot.

850
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,680
What's the name, what's the name, the actual title of this book?

851
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:01,680
The Little Prince.

852
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:02,680
The Little Prince, okay.

853
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,680
So the Little Prince is now the Little Tengku.

854
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,680
It's so funny because I was just reading this bit here.

855
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,680
Bye-bye said the fox.

856
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,680
This is my secret.

857
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:14,680
Simple, simple one.

858
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,680
You can see with your heart, yeah.

859
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,680
What is Tokong the batjee who cannot see?

860
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:25,680
My goodness.

861
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:30,680
And from the inside page, Singlish is the unofficial language of the people in Singapore.

862
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:31,680
Wow.

863
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,680
And then what do you write from the dedicatory?

864
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,680
Oh, that's not my dedicatory.

865
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:38,680
No, whose versus?

866
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:39,680
That's the author's.

867
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:40,680
The author's one?

868
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:41,680
Yeah.

869
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:42,680
Well, then you actually translated even that?

870
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:43,680
I translated, yeah, you have to.

871
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:44,680
You have to translate the whole book.

872
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:45,680
Yeah, okay.

873
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:46,680
Can I just read this?

874
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:47,680
This is so funny.

875
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:52,680
I hope you Chuan can panchan panchan and dedicate this book to an Allahaw.

876
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,680
I got good excuse one.

877
00:54:54,680 --> 00:55:01,680
This one, Allahaw, is my bestest kawan in the whole world.

878
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,680
So you did the whole damn book.

879
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:04,680
Yeah, yeah.

880
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:05,680
Like this.

881
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:07,680
I mean, it must have blown your mind, right?

882
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,680
It was a challenge because it's the first time I'm doing it.

883
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,680
I've now done a few books already, so I'm getting a hang of it.

884
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:21,680
It's not perfect, but because it's the first time I was doing it, that one,

885
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:29,680
as I was translating, a lot of questions, a lot of translators' questions came up,

886
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,680
that I never thought before I started the project.

887
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:38,680
So I actually went to numerous drafts because I realized that there are so many questions I needed to answer.

888
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:45,680
And The Little Prince may not be the best first book to have started with because it is such a complicated book.

889
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:50,680
It may be a children's book, but it has so much emotion and it's such a sad book.

890
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,680
It's about children's, I mean, the adult world.

891
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,680
It's about growing up into the adult world and to be aware of all these dangers in the adult world.

892
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:09,680
And there's so much sadness in the story and so much wisdom in the story about valuing the things that will preserve your soul.

893
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,680
It's such a profound thing to do.

894
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:14,680
This is not the right book to start with, man.

895
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:20,680
Because for one reason, when people think of Singlish, they think of humor.

896
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,680
They want to laugh. They want to do the Pochukang thing.

897
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,680
They want to do the Mr. Brown thing. They want it to laugh.

898
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,680
And you give it such a sober philosophical book.

899
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:39,680
I mean, it's great because The Little Prince is the most, possibly the most translated children's classic ever.

900
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:47,680
It has 300 over translations. So it sounds natural for this publisher to have offered this to me as the book to start with.

901
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:59,680
But I think for the readers, it was a total shock because you didn't want to first encounter a Singlish book that is so serious.

902
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:00,680
You wanted something to laugh with.

903
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:06,680
So it's very interesting when I first came up with this book, some people read it, they read it and they laugh and haha, this is so funny because it's Singlish.

904
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,680
And as they go through the pages, they say, hey, this book is actually quite sad.

905
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,680
Oh my God, this is getting very depressing.

906
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:20,680
And I think when they start to feel that and they tell me that, and I felt, ah, then I got it right.

907
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:27,680
Because if they are just laughing through the whole book, then I'm just making, I'm not getting to the sense of what the book is about.

908
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:28,680
What it truly is about.

909
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,680
You should be able to cry by the end, even if it's in Singlish.

910
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,680
You know, it's to do the Jack Neal thing, you have to be able to cry in that language.

911
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:45,680
That even despite all the things that you enjoy as humor, you have to hit a note where you feel the message, the actual message is being set up.

912
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:46,680
Yes, got through.

913
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,680
And then you know that the Singlish has worked.

914
00:57:49,680 --> 00:58:01,680
Yeah. Did you, okay, first of all, the little tongku was the take up rate, I mean, how people were really buying into it.

915
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:11,680
You know, the interesting thing, and I didn't know until the year was done, the financial year was done, it was that publishers best selling work that year.

916
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,680
Wow. So people were really picking it up.

917
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:17,680
Not just in Singapore.

918
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:30,680
So this is one reason why also with my Singlish book, I tend to go with the international publisher because I wanted to get it out of the hands of it being able to be restricted here.

919
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:43,680
You know, I think the best people to value Singlish work are people who are freed from, from, you know, a particular non-linguistic interested stance.

920
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,680
They come at it, not necessarily because they have any real interest in Singlish.

921
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,680
It could be all these other reasons.

922
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,680
I just want people to enjoy the Singlish for what it is.

923
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,680
But do these people, if they're foreign, for example, foreign.

924
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,680
They're Singaporeans who have lived, that have gone away.

925
00:58:58,680 --> 00:58:59,680
Singaporeans.

926
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,680
They're Singaporeans who have lived away.

927
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,680
You know, they picked it up and said, wow, this feels like home.

928
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:05,680
Feels like home.

929
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:12,680
Yeah. And there are linguists who have been, who have been like, linguists that have been like studying Singlish.

930
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:17,680
And, you know, you don't want to always have to come to Singapore to do the research.

931
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,680
You know, so a book like this does help in a way.

932
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:26,680
And so, I mean, there are, I mean, I didn't realize this.

933
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:34,680
I just thought that, you know, for me, it was more a practical thing that I need to, I mean, when they, when the publisher approached me,

934
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:42,680
that I consider for the future of Singlish to have it put in the hands of a wider audience.

935
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,680
Have you ever gotten yourself into any kind of flak?

936
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:46,680
For this book?

937
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:48,680
For, not just for this book.

938
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:50,680
Being an advocate for Singlish.

939
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,680
You know I go into trouble with the New York Times article.

940
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:55,680
Well, let's talk about it.

941
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:56,680
You know about this?

942
00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:00,680
I've read about it, but I didn't really go into specifics.

943
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,680
I think I have to thank them for, in a way.

944
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:08,680
All that have happened to me in the last, what, how many years now?

945
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:09,680
Eight years?

946
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:10,680
Mm-hmm.

947
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:11,680
It's thanks to...

948
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,680
The New York Times article.

949
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:18,680
More specifically, thanks to the PMO.

950
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:25,680
You know, I mean, I would not have reached a certain level of infamy because of it.

951
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:30,680
So what happens at a time, New York Times wanted me to write an article.

952
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:31,680
Right.

953
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,680
About poetry.

954
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,680
Really, about Singaporean poetry.

955
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:38,680
Okay.

956
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:47,680
And it was one of the topics that was raised, and they kind of thought, yeah, maybe not

957
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:54,680
very, you know, something that the wider audience could kind of understand and all.

958
01:00:54,680 --> 01:01:00,680
So let's find something, you know, perhaps it's curious enough for someone to want to

959
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:07,680
read, and so they suggested Singaporean poetry, sorry, Singlish, since my poetry has quite

960
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,680
a bit of Singlish, my original first book of poetry, volumes.

961
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,680
And so I said, okay, I'll write you an article on Singlish.

962
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:16,680
Okay.

963
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:22,680
And I did not expect the article to be criticized by the PMO.

964
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:23,680
Right.

965
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:24,680
Right.

966
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:25,680
So you really didn't expect it to happen?

967
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:26,680
No.

968
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:27,680
Nobody did, right?

969
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:29,680
I mean, come on, it's just Singlish.

970
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:37,680
So they wrote, so they responded to the article by writing to New York Times itself.

971
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:43,680
So it was also published as the reply to my article saying that I have trivialized the

972
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:50,680
teaching of English in Singapore, you know, by promoting Singlish, you know, and among

973
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:52,680
other things I said.

974
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:58,680
So because of that, the Singapore press picked it up and it blew up, you know, and for that

975
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,680
one whole month I just can't get things, you know how things are in Singapore, right?

976
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:03,680
Yeah, yeah.

977
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:04,680
They get politicized.

978
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:05,680
Yeah, yeah.

979
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:06,680
Even if it's nothing to do with politics.

980
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:07,680
Yeah.

981
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:08,680
It's just about Singlish, right?

982
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,680
And suddenly I get these two groups of people, people who are supporting me, who are not

983
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:14,680
actually about supporting Singlish.

984
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,680
They're just doing it because they want to go against the government, you know, they

985
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:19,680
want to criticize the government.

986
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:20,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

987
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:26,680
And the other side, you know, they're actually Singlish speakers or they're bad English

988
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:27,680
speakers.

989
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,680
They could be from either of these camps, but they will be saying like, English is important,

990
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:31,680
you know.

991
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:33,680
And I was like, hey, your English is so bad.

992
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:34,680
Why are you...

993
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:39,680
You know, anyway, there'll be these two groups, and then they're debating, it's not about

994
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:40,680
me anymore.

995
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:41,680
It's just like I'm...

996
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,680
So you're just standing there and watching all this happen.

997
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:45,680
And getting scapegoated, one left, right?

998
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:50,680
And I was like, I'm not going to engage this discussion, you know, so I just kind of disappeared

999
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:55,680
and dug a hole and hid there and just did my book, just did my work.

1000
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:57,680
But it was a creative piece you wrote for New York Times.

1001
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:58,680
It was a creative piece.

1002
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,680
And the great thing was that at that time, there was this middle ground that was run

1003
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:04,680
by Berta Hansen.

1004
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:05,680
I wonder who she is.

1005
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:06,680
I also wonder who she is.

1006
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:07,680
She's my sister.

1007
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:08,680
Yeah, yeah.

1008
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,680
And your sister did this fabulous thing of just telling me to go ahead and keep writing

1009
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,680
my Singlish article, which I have been doing for middle heart.

1010
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,680
So I know I just, you know, I hid myself and I just keep writing, churning these things

1011
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:21,680
out.

1012
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:22,680
Right.

1013
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,680
And all this went into Speckings Singlish.

1014
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:30,680
So Speckings Singlish is actually my belated response to all this rubbish.

1015
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:31,680
Right.

1016
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:35,680
So it's a collection of everything you've written in the middle ground.

1017
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,680
Yes and no.

1018
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:43,680
When Marshall Cavendish approached me about compiling this, I thought it was great for

1019
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:44,680
a few reasons.

1020
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:48,680
One is that, you know, they're international, they can bring this to a wider audience.

1021
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:49,680
Right.

1022
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:55,680
And the second thing is I felt, hey, this is, you know, the ones I've written, what

1023
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:57,680
I've written sounds still very English.

1024
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:00,680
Let's make this fun by rewriting the whole thing.

1025
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:01,680
Everything is English, you know?

1026
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:02,680
Yeah.

1027
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:03,680
And I said, why not?

1028
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:07,680
When you read the English dictionary, what's it in?

1029
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:09,680
English?

1030
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,680
Doesn't that sound contradictory to you?

1031
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:15,680
I'll go read the news dictionary because I want to know what English words means.

1032
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:16,680
Right.

1033
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:17,680
And it's explained to me in English words.

1034
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:18,680
Yes, yes.

1035
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:23,680
So very fundamental to the learning of any language is this paradox, right?

1036
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:25,680
So I can do this also.

1037
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:27,680
I can write about Singlish in Singlish.

1038
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:28,680
Why not?

1039
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:33,680
And then, you know, there will be that level of enjoyment, you know, for people who feel

1040
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:36,680
like they are missing out on something.

1041
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:41,680
And so they are trying to decode the book that is supposed to teach them what it is

1042
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:42,680
about.

1043
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:47,680
Do you think this matter regarding Singlish in Singapore is kind of muted now?

1044
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:53,680
I mean, you know, nobody really challenges it or challenges against it, you know, being

1045
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:57,680
used and all that in society and community, blah, blah, blah.

1046
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:58,680
It's kind of muted now, right?

1047
01:04:58,680 --> 01:04:59,680
Yeah, yeah.

1048
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:00,680
I think that's...

1049
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:01,680
There's more acceptance, isn't it now?

1050
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:02,680
I hope so.

1051
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,680
I think it's also part to do with the research that was done, right?

1052
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,680
Recently that they showed that...

1053
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:08,680
Was it the IPS?

1054
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:10,680
I can't remember which institute that did the research.

1055
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,680
And the younger generation has said they're fine.

1056
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,680
They are able to speak English and Singlish.

1057
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,680
It doesn't threaten their...

1058
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:23,680
Their ability and competency in the English standard.

1059
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:27,680
And I'm glad because that already firstly showed there's awareness that there is a difference

1060
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:29,680
between English and Singlish.

1061
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:34,680
And secondly, there is also a willingness to move away from that old debate, which is

1062
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:37,680
like, don't speak it, don't speak it, you know?

1063
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:43,680
As long as you're moving, as long as the debate is changing, as long as people are responding

1064
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:46,680
differently and positively, I think we are in a good place.

1065
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:53,680
And I just want to state for the record, yeah, in no way and by no means this episode meant

1066
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,680
to, you know, stir up that debate again.

1067
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:58,680
Just to make it clear.

1068
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:01,680
In no way is this episode meant to stir up that debate again.

1069
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:03,680
No, no, no.

1070
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:04,680
It's over.

1071
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:05,680
Yeah, definitely.

1072
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:06,680
I think we are in a better place now.

1073
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:07,680
I think so too.

1074
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:09,680
I think people are also much more enlightened.

1075
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:14,680
Things like that, when it happens, you know, it's an opportunity for people, society to

1076
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:18,680
learn and go on to somewhere else, you know, move on.

1077
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:25,680
And this is, you know, I mean, we should never be troubled or, you know, feel overly upset

1078
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:33,680
by something bad happening in society, like scandals of any sort, abstractly.

1079
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:40,680
That means, you know, we are moving on, we are able to be aware of issues from which

1080
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:41,680
we can move on from.

1081
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:43,680
One word, one word, one word, maturity.

1082
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:44,680
Hopefully, yeah.

1083
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:49,680
But the other side of me always notice that in Singapore, we always come back to the same

1084
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:50,680
problem.

1085
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:55,680
Well, the optimist in me is hoping that we are, you know, we are more mature than that.

1086
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:56,680
Linguistically.

1087
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:57,680
Hmm.

1088
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:58,680
Okay.

1089
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:05,680
One last thing before we say goodbye, because we've gone on for more than an hour, man.

1090
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:06,680
Wow, that's fast.

1091
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:07,680
Oh yeah.

1092
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:14,680
Looking ahead, are there any projects or themes that you currently excited to explore for

1093
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:16,680
in your future literary endeavors?

1094
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:21,680
Eating the verdict.

1095
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:23,680
Write a story about the Vade, man.

1096
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,680
Okay, so what I'm exploring.

1097
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:27,680
Yeah.

1098
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:29,680
As a poet or as a singer translator?

1099
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:31,680
I mean, I'm leaving that open.

1100
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:37,120
Well, I can tell you what I'm doing right now and hopefully, or have done and is coming

1101
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:38,120
out.

1102
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:39,120
Okay.

1103
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,320
The one that's done and is coming out and you'll be excited by this.

1104
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:45,680
You know that I have done Little Prince, I've done Peter Rabbit.

1105
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:46,680
Okay.

1106
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,680
I have done Grimms.

1107
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:54,680
The next one is now On the Way to Singapore from Germany.

1108
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:58,680
It will be landing by the time this broadcast go up, this podcast go up.

1109
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,680
Are you ready for this?

1110
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:02,680
Yeah.

1111
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:03,680
Winnie the Pooh.

1112
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:04,680
You're shitting me.

1113
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:05,680
No.

1114
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:06,680
It's coming out.

1115
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:10,680
Winnie the Pooh, in Singlish.

1116
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:20,680
That is my ultimate challenge because that book, it feels so simple, but there is a lot

1117
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:21,680
of wordplay in it.

1118
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:22,680
Right.

1119
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:27,680
So, to find the equivalent of those wordplay in Singlish was a lot of challenge, but you

1120
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,680
need a poet to do this.

1121
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:34,680
So, I think I was the right person in the right place to be able to do this.

1122
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:36,680
But, we need a Pooh.

1123
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:37,680
Yeah.

1124
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,680
On TV, in the animation, is Disney, right?

1125
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:41,680
Yeah.

1126
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:42,680
So, why don't you just...

1127
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:43,680
No, no.

1128
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:44,680
This is the text.

1129
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,680
I know, I know, I know.

1130
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:53,680
Then they can take that, talk to Disney, and do a Singlish episode of Winnie the Pooh.

1131
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:56,680
Maybe, if the episodes are based on the book.

1132
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:57,680
Right?

1133
01:08:57,680 --> 01:08:58,680
Oh yeah.

1134
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,680
I'm pretty sure that artists will know what to do.

1135
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:03,680
Maybe, maybe.

1136
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:04,680
So, that's...

1137
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:05,680
Sounds interesting though.

1138
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,680
And as a poet, I have a book that's currently being...

1139
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,680
I'm editing it, the draft there is.

1140
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,680
So, I hope to get it out soon.

1141
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:24,680
It really is a chronicle of my life during the pandemic.

1142
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:28,680
But, not in a boring way.

1143
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:30,680
I think everybody has a kind of...

1144
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:31,680
A pandemic story.

1145
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:32,680
A fatigue, a real of it.

1146
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:34,680
And also a pandemic story, as you say.

1147
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:40,680
But, I think this is about also my journey philosophically about...

1148
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:45,680
I mean, when you're stuck alone at home all the time, and all the questions that...

1149
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:47,680
You know, bug at you, you know.

1150
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:51,680
Yeah, so it's very fundamental questions, and then you see the...

1151
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:53,680
Behaviours of people and all that kind of things.

1152
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:54,680
Oh man, it must have been really bad for you.

1153
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:55,680
One of those that...

1154
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:56,680
Yeah.

1155
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:57,680
Right?

1156
01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:58,680
You live alone.

1157
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:00,680
And if you notice, how quickly we forget the pandemic.

1158
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:05,680
By this point of time, we forgot how much we have learned.

1159
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,680
And then subsequently unlearn about who we are.

1160
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,680
About what is important in life.

1161
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,680
What is ultimately important, right?

1162
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:17,680
And about bad human behaviour.

1163
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,680
What is a COVID-idiot?

1164
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:23,680
What is an anti-vaxxer?

1165
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:28,680
Those terms, and what negativity attached to those terms.

1166
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:29,680
We have forgotten all those things.

1167
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:31,680
People, the human race in general.

1168
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:33,680
I mean, I think we all got short-term memories.

1169
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,680
We all have suffered from a little bit of an amnesia.

1170
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:36,680
Correct.

1171
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:37,680
Correct.

1172
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:40,680
So I think, I mean, I want to use my poetry for that.

1173
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,680
To kind of memorialise that moment.

1174
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:46,680
And specifically the lessons we learned in those moments.

1175
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,680
Yeah, so that's the other thing I'm doing.

1176
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:49,680
I can think of the title, man.

1177
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:51,680
Lest We Forget.

1178
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:52,680
Hey, you know what?

1179
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:54,680
That was my original working title.

1180
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:55,680
Really?

1181
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:57,680
But it's not called that now.

1182
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,680
But that was exactly my working title.

1183
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:00,680
Really?

1184
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:01,680
Okay.

1185
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:03,680
It's a generational thing, man.

1186
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:04,680
Yeah, it's a generational thing.

1187
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:06,680
No, you can connect, man.

1188
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:07,680
Yeah.

1189
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:08,680
At that point, right?

1190
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:09,680
Yeah, lest we forget.

1191
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:10,680
I always say this.

1192
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:12,680
People, just to end the show.

1193
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,680
We talked about literature a lot.

1194
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:18,680
You know, we talked about, then of course we moved into other forms of linguistics.

1195
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:22,680
Another form of linguistics that's our English that we really love and treasure.

1196
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:29,680
But then again, you know, I've spoken about this a couple of times to some people on my shows.

1197
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,680
And I've always believed that, you know, if, I mean, God forbid,

1198
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,680
I mean, they've gotten rid of his literature from schools.

1199
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:37,680
Don't get rid of history.

1200
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:44,680
Because people, human beings have got such short-term memories that we barely learn from history.

1201
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:48,680
And we keep making the same stupid mistakes.

1202
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:49,680
That's right.

1203
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:53,680
Mankind makes the same stupid mistakes.

1204
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,680
So, you know, and that's the reason why we say lest we forget.

1205
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:01,680
I always say that because let's not forget the things that we've been through.

1206
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,680
Because only then can we learn how to move forward.

1207
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:07,680
Otherwise, we can't learn how to move forward.

1208
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:14,680
So my worry has always been the schools actually cancel out history, man.

1209
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:15,680
Yeah.

1210
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:21,680
I think that's right, you know, but ultimately the fight is with ourselves, right?

1211
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:22,680
Yeah.

1212
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:30,680
And also in Singapore, we are living in a place that is so easy to forget.

1213
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:38,680
Because all around us, buildings disappear, things that remind us of our childhood disappear,

1214
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:41,680
people we know disappear, you know, whatever.

1215
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:42,680
Change.

1216
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:44,680
Yeah, we're living in a very…

1217
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:46,680
Fast changing.

1218
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:50,680
Other places, you know, the people may change, but the landmark stays.

1219
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,680
Singapore, the landmark changes.

1220
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,680
Or, you know, the landscape also changes.

1221
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:03,680
That must have affected our being in a way that is profoundly different.

1222
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:04,680
Of course.

1223
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:09,680
I mean, if you look in Facebook, there are a few groups, you know, that have been formed for years.

1224
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,680
One is called Nostalgic Singapore or Nostalgia Singapore.

1225
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:14,680
I can't really remember.

1226
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:16,680
Nostalgia Singapore, Nostalgic Singapore.

1227
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:17,680
Yeah.

1228
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,680
And they put up pictures of old Singapore, you know.

1229
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,680
Even as old as… I mean, really not that old either.

1230
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:26,680
I mean, the old SBS double-deck buses that you know, you know, air-con.

1231
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:28,680
There was back in the day where…

1232
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:33,680
Did you remember you used to sit in front, you know, try to get a seat right in front of the double-deck on top, right?

1233
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:35,680
And then the windows can be opened.

1234
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,680
And the windows can be opened, that's right.

1235
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,680
And then, you know, things like that.

1236
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:47,680
I mean, and of places that have disappeared, you know, like good old Katong is no longer really Katong anymore, you know.

1237
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:52,680
Katong is like where the Tau Kok Pau used to be sold, you know, is now Broad Z.

1238
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:56,680
You know, it's just Katong shopping centre is going to be razed to the ground, you know.

1239
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:57,680
I mean, yeah.

1240
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:01,680
Does it impact people like you, people like me, and people even older than us?

1241
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:02,680
Yes, I think so.

1242
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:03,680
I think so.

1243
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:05,680
It's sometimes it's just beyond…

1244
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:10,680
It's more than just about preserving our heritage buildings.

1245
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:12,680
It's more than just that.

1246
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:13,680
Yeah.

1247
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:14,680
Yeah.

1248
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:20,680
It's also very dangerous to keep looking back to the past and feeling morbidly sad.

1249
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:21,680
Okay.

1250
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:24,680
There's something about something not healthy about that as well.

1251
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:25,680
Of course.

1252
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,680
So we have to strike a balance somehow.

1253
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:32,680
Embracing the new while still reminiscing about the old.

1254
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:35,680
I don't just… not just about reminiscing, you know.

1255
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:37,680
I think it's about respecting.

1256
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:39,680
Respecting old things.

1257
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:40,680
Yeah.

1258
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:41,680
And old realities.

1259
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:42,680
Yeah.

1260
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:43,680
I don't think we have that.

1261
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:44,680
Yeah.

1262
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:46,680
That's why we are so happy with tearing things down.

1263
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:47,680
Yeah.

1264
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:48,680
Taking snapshots of it.

1265
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:49,680
Yeah.

1266
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:51,680
And sending them to NLB for archiving.

1267
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:52,680
Yeah.

1268
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:53,680
The photos there is.

1269
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:54,680
Yeah.

1270
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:55,680
And then think we are respecting the past.

1271
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:56,680
That's not respecting the past.

1272
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:58,680
Yeah, I don't think so either.

1273
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:00,680
I don't think so either.

1274
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:06,680
I mean, just something just… just deserve to have its place and its space.

1275
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:10,680
And, you know, whether or not we feel that it is indeed heritage should not have…

1276
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:11,680
That's not the point.

1277
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:13,680
The point is how do people feel about it?

1278
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:14,680
Hmm.

1279
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:19,680
How the community of people around that area feel about that place.

1280
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:25,680
I think that's important to understand how people feel on the ground, you know, about certain things, about certain places.

1281
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:26,680
Hmm.

1282
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:27,680
Yeah.

1283
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,680
But anyway, that's a story for another show.

1284
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:30,680
So…

1285
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:31,680
If I'm coming back.

1286
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:32,680
Yeah.

1287
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:33,680
Only if there's more VEDA…

1288
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:34,680
No, always be, man.

1289
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:35,680
…or this is delicious.

1290
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:36,680
Oh, believe me, I will tell.

1291
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:37,680
Okay.

1292
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:38,680
Gordon's Vadez.

1293
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:39,680
Thank you so very much once again.

1294
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:40,680
Guy is loving it.

1295
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:44,680
And let me tell you, if you guys don't order Gordon Vadez, something's wrong with you.

1296
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:47,680
You haven't tried the best Vadez there is in Singapore.

1297
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:48,680
Really, really.

1298
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:55,680
And I've had the pleasure of having you with me in studio, in CCTV TV, on the CHC show.

1299
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:56,680
Dr. Guili Swee.

1300
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,680
And it's been a real, real nice riveting conversation.

1301
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:00,680
Thank you so very much.

1302
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,680
I mean, not always I have an academic on my show, man.

1303
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:04,680
Okay.

1304
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:05,680
Yeah.

1305
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:06,680
I'll turn the others around.

1306
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:10,680
I think a lot of the things you say, man, will fit, fit, especially the first part of the program.

1307
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:11,680
You don't have to talk about that now.

1308
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:13,680
I don't know why you really want to talk about that.

1309
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:21,680
No, I wanted to because I think poetry, literature, should be, you know, people, the ordinary

1310
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:27,680
man, ordinary Singaporean, should really give it a shot, not be intimidated by it, you know.

1311
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:28,680
Oh, yeah.

1312
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:30,680
So it's my way of promoting this.

1313
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:31,680
Okay, okay.

1314
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:34,680
You know, of having people to really embrace literature.

1315
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,680
And like you said, even some schools have cut it out.

1316
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:39,680
No, it's not, as I said, it's not a bad thing.

1317
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:40,680
I know, I know.

1318
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:45,680
If you can just go into it with an original, fresh pair of eyes, that's the best way.

1319
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:48,680
Which is what I'm trying to do, you know, to get people to really look at it like reading

1320
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,680
the papers every day as you said just now.

1321
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,680
Anyway, I tell you, this is going to go on to tomorrow morning if I don't end the show

1322
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:55,680
right now.

1323
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:56,680
It's been a great pleasure, Gui.

1324
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:59,680
Thank you so very much for being here with me.

1325
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,680
People, whenever you do, stay safe.

1326
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:03,680
I'll see you again.

1327
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:04,680
Okay.

1328
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:10,680
Watch out for this episode and for the next one because the next one, the next one, the

1329
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:17,680
next one is, is, is again about ET.

1330
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:24,680
This time, we've got the videos in Singapore, shot in Singapore to prove it.

1331
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:27,680
Catch us then for episode three as well.

1332
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:28,680
What?

1333
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:29,680
Yep.

1334
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:30,680
Bye-bye everyone.

1335
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:31,680
Say bye.

1336
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:32,680
Bye.

1337
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:33,680
Bye.

1338
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:56,680
Bye.