WEBVTT 00:00:05.450 --> 00:00:09.169 Hey beautiful, welcome to my podcast, Queerly 00:00:09.169 --> 00:00:13.429 Having Issues. I believe we all have our issues 00:00:13.429 --> 00:00:16.710 because we all have a story. My name is Jafeth 00:00:16.710 --> 00:00:20.570 and it's time to tell you about mine. Hello everyone, 00:00:20.809 --> 00:00:24.910 welcome to a new episode. Today I want to talk 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.809 about my thesis which is on the topic of religious 00:00:28.809 --> 00:00:31.670 trauma, deconversion, and the queer community. 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:35.679 This past week, I was giving a guest lecture 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:39.060 at the Free University of Amsterdam in a trauma, 00:00:39.179 --> 00:00:42.200 violence, and religion class. And there were 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:44.359 some of you who were interested in this guest 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:47.659 lecture but couldn't make it. So I thought it 00:00:47.659 --> 00:00:50.640 would be a good idea to basically record the 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.679 lecture that I gave. So I started my lecture 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.240 by telling my students about something that Sir 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:00.380 John, who was my mentor while writing my thesis, 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:03.840 he said. To speak about trauma is impossible 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.519 and not to speak is impossible. That is sort 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:09.840 of the two sides of the scale that I find myself 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.200 on often. There are times that I really want 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.400 to let go of this topic altogether and forget 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:20.239 about it and give it some rest. And while I graduated, 00:01:20.260 --> 00:01:22.579 I thought that was going to happen, that I could 00:01:22.579 --> 00:01:25.340 just let it go for a bit. But then I got offered 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:27.659 to write a chapter for an academic book that 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:31.530 will be... published in 2026 it's on gender and 00:01:31.530 --> 00:01:34.829 religious exits and they asked me to write a 00:01:34.829 --> 00:01:38.569 chapter on my thesis together with Sir John who 00:01:38.569 --> 00:01:41.109 will be the second author of the piece and then 00:01:41.109 --> 00:01:44.349 also I was asked to give this lecture so I felt 00:01:44.349 --> 00:01:46.909 like okay the work isn't done yet and at the 00:01:46.909 --> 00:01:49.510 same time I'm also very grateful that they asked 00:01:49.510 --> 00:01:52.409 me to speak on this topic which is important 00:01:52.409 --> 00:01:55.280 to me and I think it's important to voice my 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.219 story but also the story of my participants and 00:01:58.219 --> 00:02:01.579 the story of many others with us and also i thought 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:04.680 it was important because i felt while i was doing 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:07.640 these monsters in peace trauma and religion i 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.879 felt this subject to be non -existent so i was 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:13.900 grateful that these professors created a space 00:02:13.900 --> 00:02:17.960 for this topic to exist within the monsters what 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:21.759 i did is i started off my lecture asking the 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:24.659 students what the term religion meant to them 00:02:24.659 --> 00:02:27.300 personally like what's the first word that pops 00:02:27.300 --> 00:02:29.960 up when you think about religion I just basically 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.259 was writing these things down on the whiteboard 00:02:33.259 --> 00:02:36.900 so most of the words were positive what I sort 00:02:36.900 --> 00:02:39.080 of expected so you know people would be like 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.939 religion to me means hope or love or relationship 00:02:43.939 --> 00:02:47.520 but then there were also people who said things 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:53.340 like struggles rules, patriarchy. But then again, 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:56.180 I was also not expecting anything less from these 00:02:56.180 --> 00:02:57.819 students, to be honest, as they're all in this 00:02:57.819 --> 00:03:00.039 sort of peace, trauma, and religion track. And 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.020 the other part of the students were spiritual 00:03:02.020 --> 00:03:05.939 care students. But in general, most of the words 00:03:05.939 --> 00:03:08.419 were more positive. It is also what I realized 00:03:08.419 --> 00:03:11.360 while I was researching on the topic of religious 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:13.840 trauma. I felt, okay, there's a lot of research 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.520 on how religion can be beneficial for people 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:18.520 who've experienced trauma. But there was not 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:21.960 a lot of research on how religion itself can 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.120 become the source of trauma. So my question was 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:26.719 more like, what happens when religion becomes 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.340 the source of trauma? That is my field of interest. 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:32.780 Actually, it was also during this class, the 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:36.860 trauma, violence, and religion class that I was 00:03:36.860 --> 00:03:40.099 teaching in. It was during that class while I 00:03:40.099 --> 00:03:43.699 was myself still a student. I remember our professor, 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.840 she spoke about the theory of trauma. She mentioned 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.719 Judith Herman. And I was also reading books like 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:54.080 The Body Keeps the Score. And I could really 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:57.979 relate to a lot of these symptoms and the things 00:03:57.979 --> 00:04:00.900 that were said in those books. But at the same 00:04:00.900 --> 00:04:03.860 time, I was like, I have not had any major traumatic 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:06.759 event happening to me. So it was actually in 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.020 that class that I sort of came to a diagnosis 00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:12.520 for myself. I asked the professor, like, what 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.409 happens when... God becomes the perpetrator, 00:04:15.409 --> 00:04:18.269 what happens when the source that is supposed 00:04:18.269 --> 00:04:21.689 to protect you and love you becomes a source 00:04:21.689 --> 00:04:25.209 of fear and shame. Then she mentioned the term 00:04:25.209 --> 00:04:28.790 complex PTSD, complex post -traumatic stress 00:04:28.790 --> 00:04:32.750 disorder, and basically that helped me to realize 00:04:32.750 --> 00:04:37.310 that my struggle wasn't necessarily about a one 00:04:37.310 --> 00:04:40.449 -time traumatic event, but more about repeated 00:04:40.449 --> 00:04:43.339 and prolonged. emotional and psychological stress, 00:04:43.579 --> 00:04:46.959 but I will come back to that term in a bit. My 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.920 struggle came forth from growing up in an evangelical 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.860 Christian environment, being a gay person, suppressing 00:04:54.860 --> 00:04:57.920 that queer identity for a very long time in order 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.160 to fit in and conform to my environment. Also, 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:05.240 I felt like there was no chance in hell that 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:09.420 I could be both queer and an evangelical Christian. 00:05:10.110 --> 00:05:13.310 What research suggests is that leaving your religion 00:05:13.310 --> 00:05:15.670 then may not be a choice, but it's an inevitable 00:05:15.670 --> 00:05:18.769 conclusion as you want to survive. So if you 00:05:18.769 --> 00:05:21.970 want to embrace that queer identity, you have 00:05:21.970 --> 00:05:24.709 to leave the evangelical environment. So basically 00:05:24.709 --> 00:05:27.089 that was the source of conflicting identities 00:05:27.089 --> 00:05:30.490 within myself between my sexual identity and 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:39.120 my religious identity. So the aim for my... research 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.540 was to understand how queer individuals from 00:05:42.540 --> 00:05:45.160 evangelical backgrounds in the Netherlands experience 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.500 religious trauma, how it contributes to their 00:05:48.500 --> 00:05:51.720 deconversion, and how they reclaim agency over 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.040 their sexual and or gender identity. For those 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.240 of you who are not familiar with these terms, 00:05:57.339 --> 00:05:59.959 I know it's a lot, but I will try to break it 00:05:59.959 --> 00:06:02.759 down for you and I will explain it in a bit. 00:06:03.100 --> 00:06:09.709 So first, how did I do my research? I spoke to 00:06:09.709 --> 00:06:12.250 10 queer individuals with evangelical backgrounds 00:06:12.250 --> 00:06:15.790 in the Netherlands and I basically asked them 00:06:15.790 --> 00:06:17.810 to tell me their life stories. So I took the 00:06:17.810 --> 00:06:20.730 narrative approach and I recorded the sessions. 00:06:20.949 --> 00:06:23.870 They were like one and a half hours, one on one. 00:06:23.930 --> 00:06:26.930 And then afterwards I transcribed everything 00:06:26.930 --> 00:06:29.949 and I started coding these stories and their 00:06:29.949 --> 00:06:33.310 narratives and I started looking for common grounds, 00:06:33.430 --> 00:06:36.029 but also for differences in their narratives. 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:39.980 And then I divided these stories into three stages. 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:42.939 I will elaborate on that in a little bit. First, 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:45.720 I want to quickly break down the term religious 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:49.639 trauma, complex PTSD and deconversion. So you 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:51.699 have an idea what we're talking about if you're 00:06:51.699 --> 00:06:55.139 not familiar with these terms. So first of all, 00:06:55.180 --> 00:06:58.339 religious trauma, leaving a religion isn't easy 00:06:58.339 --> 00:07:01.279 for anyone. But for some of us, it might feel 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:04.120 like we are losing our minds and our safety and 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.240 our sense of who we are. and psychologist Marlene 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:09.540 Weinold. She came up with the term religious 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:13.420 trauma syndrome in 2011. Even though the phenomenon 00:07:13.420 --> 00:07:16.079 existed long before that, there were already 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:18.459 other health professionals who were speaking 00:07:18.459 --> 00:07:21.019 with people who had a hard time letting go of 00:07:21.019 --> 00:07:24.240 their religious indoctrination. And 2011 might 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.259 not seem that recent, but because there's not 00:07:27.259 --> 00:07:30.120 a lot of research on this topic, it's still relatively 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.699 new and relevant. Religious trauma basically 00:07:33.699 --> 00:07:37.610 happens when Someone is struggling after leaving 00:07:37.610 --> 00:07:40.170 a religion or belief system that was controlling 00:07:40.170 --> 00:07:43.410 or damaging. And often in these environments 00:07:43.410 --> 00:07:46.509 there are two very powerful messages. One is 00:07:46.509 --> 00:07:49.490 you are not okay and the other is you are not 00:07:49.490 --> 00:07:53.189 safe. And these messages often are reinforced 00:07:53.189 --> 00:07:56.790 with ideas. When we look at the Christian theology 00:07:56.790 --> 00:08:01.430 it's the idea of original sin and eternal damnation. 00:08:02.129 --> 00:08:05.490 So these environments require strict obedience 00:08:05.490 --> 00:08:08.430 and often they are tying survival in the group 00:08:08.430 --> 00:08:11.730 but also hope for the afterlife to perfect conformity 00:08:11.730 --> 00:08:13.949 so these individuals have to do everything to 00:08:13.949 --> 00:08:16.290 fit into the environment in order to survive 00:08:16.290 --> 00:08:19.569 and in order to go to heaven this group is tightly 00:08:19.569 --> 00:08:22.089 controlled and questioning it can feel dangerous 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:25.810 or even sinful so if i look at my own story i 00:08:25.810 --> 00:08:28.810 remember i was struggling with my sexuality i 00:08:28.810 --> 00:08:31.490 remember struggling in silence for many years 00:08:31.490 --> 00:08:34.809 trying to suppress these feelings and um then 00:08:34.809 --> 00:08:38.210 i opened up to my family about this about this 00:08:38.210 --> 00:08:41.230 struggle and then i remember my sisters and my 00:08:41.230 --> 00:08:45.370 mother they were crying and um very soon i was 00:08:45.370 --> 00:08:48.669 you know being prayed for and of course i myself 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:51.950 also still believed that this was a phase or 00:08:51.950 --> 00:08:54.450 that god would heal me as i didn't know any better 00:08:54.450 --> 00:08:58.070 i sort of um I just moved along with the whole 00:08:58.070 --> 00:09:02.529 process and subconsciously knew that I was not 00:09:02.529 --> 00:09:07.289 okay. And also, I think especially when I started 00:09:07.289 --> 00:09:10.470 questioning certain ideas and slowly started 00:09:10.470 --> 00:09:13.850 to deconstruct my beliefs, I started to feel 00:09:13.850 --> 00:09:16.970 unsafe. So I remember not being able to sleep 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:19.049 at night because I was scared that I would go 00:09:19.049 --> 00:09:23.009 to hell. I've mentioned complex PTSD before and 00:09:23.009 --> 00:09:26.620 Marlene Winall. she also compares religious trauma 00:09:26.620 --> 00:09:31.259 syndrome to complex PTSD. Complex PTSD is a psychological 00:09:31.259 --> 00:09:34.980 disorder that can develop in response to prolonged, 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.799 repeated experience of interpersonal trauma in 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:40.940 a context in which the individual has little 00:09:40.940 --> 00:09:44.000 or no chance of escape. When I look at my own 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:49.759 situation, that meant that the idea that I was 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:53.870 not safe and that I was not okay and... that 00:09:53.870 --> 00:09:57.549 there was actually no escape because it was either 00:09:57.549 --> 00:10:00.970 you conform and you deny that part of yourself 00:10:00.970 --> 00:10:04.990 so you can survive in the group and have hope 00:10:04.990 --> 00:10:08.750 for the afterlife or you leave and you will be 00:10:08.750 --> 00:10:11.909 damned and you will go to hell. When you look 00:10:11.909 --> 00:10:14.169 at religious trauma, the trauma often comes from 00:10:14.169 --> 00:10:16.309 people who are supposed to protect you. So you 00:10:16.309 --> 00:10:19.289 can think of your indoctrinated parents or church 00:10:19.289 --> 00:10:24.519 environment. Symptoms that people who have experienced 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:29.059 religious trauma often have are symptoms of anxiety, 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:33.419 depression, numbing, dissociation, panic attacks, 00:10:33.539 --> 00:10:38.039 but they can also even contemplate suicide. And 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:41.340 these symptoms were very evident within the stories 00:10:41.340 --> 00:10:44.279 of my participants, even though none of them 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:46.360 had heard the term religious trauma syndrome 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.159 before. So for some of them, it was like, oh, 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.149 okay, so... That is sort of a name for what I've 00:10:52.149 --> 00:10:55.789 been experiencing the last couple of years. When 00:10:55.789 --> 00:10:58.730 you look at deconversion, which basically means 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:01.889 you are leaving a religion without joining a 00:11:01.889 --> 00:11:05.529 new one. Heinz Treib has called this disaffiliation 00:11:05.529 --> 00:11:08.429 without reaffiliation. So basically you leave 00:11:08.429 --> 00:11:10.970 your religion and you're not going to join another 00:11:10.970 --> 00:11:15.190 one. So when you look at conversion versus deconversion 00:11:15.190 --> 00:11:19.710 with conversion. People, they convert to a religion 00:11:19.710 --> 00:11:23.590 or from one religion to another. And often the 00:11:23.590 --> 00:11:26.789 process of conversion comes with a sense of gain, 00:11:27.029 --> 00:11:30.769 a sense of growth, a sense of comfort. And when 00:11:30.769 --> 00:11:33.929 you look at deconversion narratives, often their 00:11:33.929 --> 00:11:39.250 stories highlight struggles with rejection, alienation, 00:11:39.269 --> 00:11:42.929 and grief. And it's a very complex process. Often 00:11:42.929 --> 00:11:46.340 it involves loss of community. intellectual doubt 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:48.740 but also emotional suffering and biographical 00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:53.000 change so you do know the facebook memories in 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:55.740 which facebook is like hey this is what you wrote 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:59.500 15 years ago and in my situation often the things 00:11:59.500 --> 00:12:02.259 that i wrote on facebook like 15 or 20 years 00:12:02.259 --> 00:12:05.600 ago i'm like who the hell is this person like 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.379 i have no idea it feels so weird and of course 00:12:09.379 --> 00:12:13.100 i think we all to a certain degree cringe on 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:15.860 what we've written you know 20 years ago but 00:12:15.860 --> 00:12:18.860 because of the sentiment of the the facebook 00:12:18.860 --> 00:12:21.799 posts that i made about god and jesus and everything 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:25.159 i'm like i cannot relate to this person at all 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:33.220 so when we come to the results of my research 00:12:33.220 --> 00:12:37.919 i divided their stories into three stages one 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.730 stage was the pre -deconversion stage I felt 00:12:41.730 --> 00:12:44.350 that all of the participants within their stories, 00:12:44.409 --> 00:12:47.110 there was this certain stage in which certain 00:12:47.110 --> 00:12:49.809 things happened, which eventually led to them 00:12:49.809 --> 00:12:52.110 leaving their religion or their deconversion. 00:12:52.730 --> 00:12:55.909 So all of the participants, they mentioned to 00:12:55.909 --> 00:12:58.289 feel different from a young age. They felt like 00:12:58.289 --> 00:13:02.149 they didn't fit in into their environment, into 00:13:02.149 --> 00:13:05.850 their families. often they didn't know why they 00:13:05.850 --> 00:13:07.549 couldn't put a finger on it yet they were just 00:13:07.549 --> 00:13:09.830 too young but unconsciously they knew they were 00:13:09.830 --> 00:13:12.409 different to their peers then also there were 00:13:12.409 --> 00:13:14.909 stories of negative framing within the family 00:13:14.909 --> 00:13:17.190 so there was a negative perception of queerness 00:13:17.190 --> 00:13:20.750 often the participants had stories of parents 00:13:20.750 --> 00:13:24.190 switching the tv to another channel or just turning 00:13:24.190 --> 00:13:26.990 off the tv when there was a gay character or 00:13:26.990 --> 00:13:30.230 a gay famous person on tv as mostly they were 00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:34.159 you know gay Lesbian individuals on TV back then 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.480 as the other members of the community weren't 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:39.559 that visible yet. Then also there were evangelical 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:43.340 teachings on sin, also mostly on same -sex attraction 00:13:43.340 --> 00:13:47.840 because of the scriptures in the Bible. And because 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:51.740 of these negative perceptions, 9 out of 10 participants, 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.399 they understood, often on an unconscious level, 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.059 that being queer could mean going to hell. And 00:13:58.059 --> 00:14:00.700 the only participant who did not have these issues, 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:04.419 this person was not raised in an evangelical 00:14:04.419 --> 00:14:08.620 Christian environment. So because they understood 00:14:08.620 --> 00:14:11.059 that being queer wasn't a positive thing in their 00:14:11.059 --> 00:14:14.200 environment, they decided to box up their feelings 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:16.559 and keep these feelings locked away. And all 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.279 but one participant, the one who didn't grow 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:20.419 up in the evangelical environment, they reported 00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:23.759 experiencing depression, suicidal thoughts, while 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.620 reflecting on their early queer experiences. 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.200 There was even one person who was hospitalized 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:31.960 because they couldn't take the struggle anymore 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:34.980 between their sexual identity and their religious 00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:39.000 identity. However, 6 out of 10 participants, 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.419 they shared their secret with their family members 00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:44.519 because they couldn't deal with the secret anymore 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:47.419 and they just wanted to open up about what they 00:14:47.419 --> 00:14:50.039 were struggling with. All of them were met with 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:53.759 rejection. Even though often the parents, they 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.340 meant well and they didn't know any better, but 00:14:56.340 --> 00:14:59.059 mostly they were like, okay, we love you, but 00:14:59.059 --> 00:15:01.799 this is not an option for you. And we're going 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:04.320 to do everything in our power to make sure that 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.120 you become quote unquote normal. So what I've 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:11.720 heard often was the quote, love the sinner, hate 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.240 the sin, which was the sentiment within the environment 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:16.899 that I grew up in. So yeah, we love you, but 00:15:16.899 --> 00:15:19.700 we are hating that part of you that wants to 00:15:19.700 --> 00:15:23.919 sin basically. And in 2020, the Canadian Centre 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.799 of Gender and Sexual Health Equity, they offered 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.019 a more inclusive definition of conversion therapy. 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:34.179 They said that conversion therapy is any treatment, 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:37.159 practice or sustained effort that has the express 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:40.179 goal of changing or repressing a person's core 00:15:40.179 --> 00:15:43.039 identity, specifically related to who they are 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.940 attracted to and their sense of self as male, 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.269 female or another gender. So when we look at 00:15:49.269 --> 00:15:53.049 that definition of conversion therapy, we can 00:15:53.049 --> 00:15:56.009 conclude, or I can conclude, that within the 00:15:56.009 --> 00:15:58.529 stories of my participants, for 9 out of 10, 00:15:58.789 --> 00:16:01.789 this conversion therapy started within their 00:16:01.789 --> 00:16:04.570 homes, with their loved ones, within their safe 00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:07.509 environment. You know, parents were praying over 00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:09.470 their children, they were having discussions. 00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:12.419 So parents were doing everything in their power 00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:15.159 to sort of help the children, make sure that 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.840 they find a way to heal them, you know. And because 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:21.740 of that, nine out of ten participants, they sought 00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:25.519 help. And often in their stories, they were saying 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.860 things like they had a therapist who would try 00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:32.019 to get rid of the demon of homosexuality or they 00:16:32.019 --> 00:16:36.230 would address queerness as perversion. There 00:16:36.230 --> 00:16:39.370 was even one guy who was sent to official conversion 00:16:39.370 --> 00:16:43.149 therapy in Amsterdam when he was only 11 years 00:16:43.149 --> 00:16:47.470 old. And then what came up in their stories is 00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:50.029 the theory on why they were struggling with these 00:16:50.029 --> 00:16:53.289 feelings for the gay male participants. Often 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:56.210 it was the story of you have a bad relationship 00:16:56.210 --> 00:16:58.470 with your father, so that's why you have this 00:16:58.470 --> 00:17:00.470 kink in your brain. This is why you struggle 00:17:00.470 --> 00:17:02.909 with your sexuality. You should do things together. 00:17:02.990 --> 00:17:06.259 You should try to bond more. Even though this 00:17:06.259 --> 00:17:09.960 theory is not at all supported by empirical research, 00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:12.839 it does still continue to circulate within the 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.480 evangelical environment. Then also there was 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:18.079 another theory that I hadn't heard before, but 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.799 there was a transgender woman. She mentioned 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.819 that when she was a child, her stepbrother sexually 00:17:24.819 --> 00:17:27.940 abused her. So her father told her, because of 00:17:27.940 --> 00:17:30.640 that experience, you are experiencing gender 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:33.240 confusion, even though she mentioned to have 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.700 felt more feminine. since she could remember. 00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:39.500 So as a result, these individuals are basically 00:17:39.500 --> 00:17:42.599 faced with a choice of where to seek affirmation, 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:46.059 so they can find their identity within Christ 00:17:46.059 --> 00:17:49.180 and within God, or they can find affirmation 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:52.579 from a partner or, you know, a queer lifestyle. 00:17:52.779 --> 00:17:55.819 And then often they see this as a cosmic battle, 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:58.880 so they think Satan is doing everything in his 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.660 power to get the participants away from God and 00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:06.509 away from the Only right path in life, basically. 00:18:06.769 --> 00:18:09.269 So because of the belief that being queer and 00:18:09.269 --> 00:18:12.410 Christian were incompatible, most of the participants 00:18:12.410 --> 00:18:16.269 they sought an escape. Laurie Fazzino explores 00:18:16.269 --> 00:18:19.490 deconversion as a transformative, identity -driven 00:18:19.490 --> 00:18:22.730 exit from evangelical beliefs, particularly when 00:18:22.730 --> 00:18:25.069 it involves questioning rigid religious norms 00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:27.710 and navigating the emotional struggles that follow. 00:18:28.210 --> 00:18:32.539 So this sort of... transformative, identity -driven 00:18:32.539 --> 00:18:35.200 exit. I think it suits the participants very 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:39.420 well. What came up a lot was the evangelical 00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:45.599 identity that was based on a felt need for absolute 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.279 certainty. So losing this anchor left most of 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.819 the participants feeling lost and they felt like 00:18:51.819 --> 00:18:54.519 they had no firm ground to stand on. It was like 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:56.819 the foundation was pulled from underneath of 00:18:56.819 --> 00:18:59.430 them. And this experience of letting go of the 00:18:59.430 --> 00:19:02.150 evangelical identity and the evangelical faith 00:19:02.150 --> 00:19:05.470 led to a sense of disorientation and even physical 00:19:05.470 --> 00:19:08.890 insecurity. And this highlights how certainty 00:19:08.890 --> 00:19:13.109 within their previous identity was not only a 00:19:13.109 --> 00:19:17.109 cognitive, but also a physical anchor. The participants 00:19:17.109 --> 00:19:19.269 were mentioning that even after leaving their 00:19:19.269 --> 00:19:21.829 religion, the influence of trauma persisted. 00:19:21.910 --> 00:19:24.750 One example was a participant who mentioned that 00:19:25.710 --> 00:19:28.069 Cognitively, he knows that he's okay and that 00:19:28.069 --> 00:19:31.910 he's safe. But then it seems like his body doesn't 00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:34.690 get the memo. The body seems to stay in this 00:19:34.690 --> 00:19:36.809 fight -flight mode that he had been in for many 00:19:36.809 --> 00:19:40.650 years, trying to survive and trying to create 00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:43.910 a space where he could be himself. Eight out 00:19:43.910 --> 00:19:46.009 of ten participants, they described an exit story 00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:48.769 in which the conversion, leaving their religion, 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:51.430 meant not only leaving their religious community, 00:19:51.470 --> 00:19:54.190 but also letting go of the identity tied to it. 00:19:54.859 --> 00:19:58.200 And I say 8 out of 10 because 2 out of 10 were 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.900 not raised in evangelical environments. However, 00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:04.480 later in life, they joined an evangelical church. 00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:07.420 And while I interviewed them, they were still 00:20:07.420 --> 00:20:09.819 a part of it. But recently they have left their 00:20:09.819 --> 00:20:12.599 church, but I will address their situation in 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:19.529 a bit. So while I was doing the interviews, there 00:20:19.529 --> 00:20:21.369 were 8 out of 10 participants who had a religious 00:20:21.369 --> 00:20:24.269 exit in some way or another. There is a framework 00:20:24.269 --> 00:20:28.430 that Heinz Tribe uses to outline three types 00:20:28.430 --> 00:20:31.470 of religious exits. And two of these exits were 00:20:31.470 --> 00:20:36.490 very suitable for my participants. So the first 00:20:36.490 --> 00:20:40.490 one is the secularizing exit. Basically, it means 00:20:40.490 --> 00:20:42.569 that these participants, they leave the church 00:20:42.569 --> 00:20:44.569 and they abandon religious beliefs altogether. 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.160 they shifted towards a fully non -religious worldview. 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:50.859 So most of these participants, they would speak 00:20:50.859 --> 00:20:53.900 about how they found solace in science. One participant 00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:56.440 even mentioned that science had become her new 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.359 religion. Then there is the heretical exit. Basically, 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.799 it means the participants, they leave the institution, 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:07.019 but not spirituality. So they adopt new, more 00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:10.160 personal, or alternative beliefs outside formal 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.769 religion. And often they're doing this because 00:21:12.769 --> 00:21:16.049 they're trying to fill an existential void. As 00:21:16.049 --> 00:21:18.230 you know, we're human beings and most of us have 00:21:18.230 --> 00:21:20.190 questions like, what is the purpose of life? 00:21:20.289 --> 00:21:23.869 Why are we here? Etc. So deconversion, leaving 00:21:23.869 --> 00:21:26.950 your religion, doesn't always mean a complete 00:21:26.950 --> 00:21:31.190 rejection of all aspects of religion. For those 00:21:31.190 --> 00:21:33.849 who have faced trauma and take the heretical 00:21:33.849 --> 00:21:37.190 exit, this path offers autonomy and it allows 00:21:37.190 --> 00:21:39.650 them to explore new beliefs without the constraints 00:21:39.650 --> 00:21:42.839 of the church. So one example is a participant 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.420 who mentioned that his new belief is that God 00:21:46.420 --> 00:21:50.279 is love, love is God, and if I love a person, 00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:52.980 then how can that be wrong? And he said that 00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:54.980 even though it's a beautiful thing to believe, 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.279 it took him many, many years to come to actually 00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:01.200 believe it and live it. So I mentioned before 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.660 there were two participants who did not grow 00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:05.119 up in the evangelical church. They were able 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.559 to form their queer identity before joining the 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.569 evangelical church. They are a gay couple and 00:22:10.569 --> 00:22:13.089 they joined the evangelical church later in life 00:22:13.089 --> 00:22:16.190 because they adopted two children. And when the 00:22:16.190 --> 00:22:18.490 children came to a certain age, they were looking 00:22:18.490 --> 00:22:20.950 for a more suitable church, one that is more 00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:25.349 fun and modern. So they ended up finding an evangelical 00:22:25.349 --> 00:22:29.069 church that was claiming to be inclusive of queer 00:22:29.069 --> 00:22:31.809 people. And it's actually the first time that 00:22:31.809 --> 00:22:33.970 I hear of an evangelical church in the Netherlands 00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:36.029 that is trying to be inclusive of queer identities. 00:22:36.390 --> 00:22:39.859 But also I was quite skeptical. And then they 00:22:39.859 --> 00:22:41.740 said that even though the church is claiming 00:22:41.740 --> 00:22:45.599 to be inclusive, they experienced ongoing tensions 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.119 around queer identity and belonging, and they 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.039 tried to talk with the pastor, and there just 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:54.000 wasn't a lot of space to have a decent conversation. 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:58.980 And their story, to me, echoed an argument that 00:22:58.980 --> 00:23:02.339 another researcher made that meaningful dialogue 00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:05.599 on queer inclusion remains largely absent in 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.869 the evangelical spaces. And he made this statement 00:23:08.869 --> 00:23:13.930 in 2015. So you can imagine how much more work 00:23:13.930 --> 00:23:16.970 there needs to be done in order to have an evangelical 00:23:16.970 --> 00:23:19.970 church in the Netherlands that is actually inclusive 00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.349 of queer identities. I don't know if it's ever 00:23:22.349 --> 00:23:25.690 going to happen, but let's hope so. I did ask 00:23:25.690 --> 00:23:28.529 them, why are you still there? It sounds very 00:23:28.529 --> 00:23:32.250 tiring to me. I mean, that is my positionality 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:34.670 and my experience. Like, I could never do that. 00:23:35.369 --> 00:23:37.630 But then they said like, yeah, well, if we leave, 00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:41.529 who is going to stand up for the queer people 00:23:41.529 --> 00:23:44.849 within the church? But I also felt that because 00:23:44.849 --> 00:23:46.730 they were able to form their queer identities 00:23:46.730 --> 00:23:49.210 outside of the evangelical church before joining 00:23:49.210 --> 00:23:53.650 later in life, they had more willpower to fight. 00:23:53.789 --> 00:23:55.710 That's also what they said. Like, if we leave, 00:23:55.710 --> 00:23:58.750 who is going to stand up and speak up for these 00:23:58.750 --> 00:24:01.890 queer individuals who are quite vulnerable within 00:24:01.890 --> 00:24:04.539 this church environment? So I was like, okay, 00:24:04.579 --> 00:24:08.000 fair enough, that makes sense. But recently, 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.720 they left the church. By now, I could say that 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:14.079 10 out of 10 participants have left the church. 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:16.720 I haven't spoken to them, so I'm not sure where 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:18.940 they stand, but it seems like they're sort of 00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:22.119 getting into a post -evangelical mindset. So 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:23.839 when we look at the post, the conversion stage, 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:28.039 which for me was the stage that I heard that 00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:30.299 the participants were reflecting on their past. 00:24:31.190 --> 00:24:34.130 Most of them were mentioning the feeling of a 00:24:34.130 --> 00:24:37.650 lost youth. So they felt like because they were 00:24:37.650 --> 00:24:40.269 struggling with their sexuality or gender identity 00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:42.650 in their teenage years and then tried to come 00:24:42.650 --> 00:24:45.230 to acceptance in their 20s or 30s or even later 00:24:45.230 --> 00:24:47.690 in life, they were missing out on life. They 00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:49.509 felt like they were late bloomers. They felt 00:24:49.509 --> 00:24:52.089 like they were behind on romantic relationships, 00:24:52.170 --> 00:24:55.660 but also they were behind in their careers. Also, 00:24:55.660 --> 00:24:57.900 some of the participants mentioned that they 00:24:57.900 --> 00:25:00.259 had shallow relationships with their family members 00:25:00.259 --> 00:25:03.279 as a form of self -protection, which is something 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.039 that I know very well. Often, they were saying 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:09.940 that if we show vulnerability to the family members 00:25:09.940 --> 00:25:13.200 that are still evangelical, it is seen as an 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.779 entrance for them to try to get us back to the 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.480 evangelical environment or to the evangelical 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:20.950 belief. And as I see it, that is like... wanting 00:25:20.950 --> 00:25:24.130 to bring someone back to the perpetrator, to 00:25:24.130 --> 00:25:31.730 their trauma, basically. So also I was curious, 00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:34.250 like, hey, was it worth it? Like, how do you 00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:37.670 feel right now? Are you feeling better than before? 00:25:38.849 --> 00:25:42.910 And what became clear to me was that despite 00:25:42.910 --> 00:25:45.430 all the struggles that they had within their 00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:48.420 process, most participants, they... described 00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.359 experiencing a deep sense of freedom and empowerment 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.940 over their sexuality, and they were letting go 00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:56.880 of internalized guilt, they were redefining who 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.839 they are, and also reclaiming control over their 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:03.900 own bodies seemed to be central to their healing. 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:08.099 So embracing their sexuality and or gender identity 00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:11.119 became a way to persist past shame and affirm 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.339 themselves, and instead of seeing sex through 00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:17.079 fear or guilt, they were now experiencing it 00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:19.660 with joy and connection. One participant, for 00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:21.960 example, said that they are now finally able 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.259 to enjoy sexual experiences freely and their 00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:27.859 understanding that pleasure is natural and not 00:26:27.859 --> 00:26:32.460 sinful. Even though there was a lot of progress 00:26:32.460 --> 00:26:35.380 that was made, there were also still struggles 00:26:35.380 --> 00:26:38.200 with lingering internal conflicts or voices of 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:40.119 guilt when they were doing certain things that 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.819 they were not allowed to do while growing up. 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:45.700 So I think the main things that I got out of 00:26:45.700 --> 00:26:48.640 my research and to sort of come to a conclusion 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.859 for this episode, deconversion is not a single 00:26:52.859 --> 00:26:55.559 event. So leaving your religion is not a single 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:58.380 event. It is an ongoing process of rebuilding 00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:03.700 identity. And also this sort of what I called 00:27:03.700 --> 00:27:07.480 post -deconversion stage does not seem to exist 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.859 as leaving your religion, deconversion. does 00:27:11.859 --> 00:27:14.640 not result in a neat, happy ending or a perfectly 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.599 resolved outcome. It seems to be a very painful 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:24.460 process, but at the same time, deconversion ultimately 00:27:24.460 --> 00:27:28.420 leads to liberation and empowerment, and these 00:27:28.420 --> 00:27:30.900 individuals are able to embrace sexual agency 00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:34.019 and discover new meaning outside of their former 00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:38.460 evangelical faith. And then, at the end of that 00:27:38.460 --> 00:27:41.589 lecture, of course I had to do some PR. No, I'm 00:27:41.589 --> 00:27:44.069 kidding. But I wrote a song called Brokenhearted, 00:27:44.190 --> 00:27:47.710 released it in 2020 during COVID, did a low budget 00:27:47.710 --> 00:27:50.609 video. And I wrote that song because of the high 00:27:50.609 --> 00:27:53.309 rates of depression and suicidal tendencies within 00:27:53.309 --> 00:27:55.750 our community. And I was just like, hey, guys, 00:27:55.990 --> 00:27:58.410 I'm going to show you this song that I wrote. 00:27:58.549 --> 00:28:01.190 And I think if you listen carefully, you will 00:28:01.190 --> 00:28:04.109 be able to hear some of the themes that we spoke 00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:07.650 about today. Of course, less extensive, but still 00:28:07.650 --> 00:28:11.299 very recognizable, I think. So if you want to 00:28:11.299 --> 00:28:14.619 watch the video, I will just put a link in the 00:28:14.619 --> 00:28:17.240 description of this episode. So that was basically 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:20.859 my first experience of being a guest lecturer. 00:28:21.460 --> 00:28:24.240 If you have any questions after listening to 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:26.480 this episode, you can always reach out to me 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.539 at queerlyhavingissues on Instagram. And if you're 00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:32.599 listening on Spotify, I think there's the possibility 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.759 to leave a comment within the app. And again, 00:28:36.819 --> 00:28:39.460 thank you for listening. And if you are struggling, 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:42.900 going through sort of the things that I've explained 00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:45.720 within this episode. Please do know that you're 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.160 not alone and that there are many others like 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:52.059 you and we're all going through this deconversion 00:28:52.059 --> 00:28:57.000 process together. Thanks for listening and I 00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.900 hope to have you with me again in the next episode. 00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:01.960 Take care.