Hi.
Hello.
Hi.
Welcome to Mindful Poly.
Hi.
I'm Nova.
And I'm Fox.
And today we are talking about?
Metamours.
Yes.
This is part of our Relationship Dynamics series.
So the simplest definition of a metamour is your partner's partner.
So in a world where you have metamores, you have metamours, you have metamores, you have
metamours, you have metamours,
have metamores, your partner has another partner, in that person, you would say, that is my metamour.
I love it.
I love how simple it is.
There are so many things in polyamory that are things that are familiar but then more
complex or complicated.
Well, it isn't the first pass.
And then the second we started thinking about
how to define this, it immediately gets tricky
because I mean, maybe in a parallel poly world,
you just say, that's my metamorph.
But like in a lot of other situations,
you might be like, that's my friend, that's my family.
And even sort of like, you can end up in situations
where you might share certain types of things
with a metamorph, but not quite a partnership level.
Like maybe if you have, choose to share
some sort of physical connection
or an emotional connection or.
At what point do they stop becoming a meta
and turn into something else?
Yeah.
And that lines, where people draw that line
is different for everybody.
Also, how far does that extend?
Is your partner's partner's partner's partner's partner,
your meta?
Or are they?
They're part of your extended constellation or extended.
Like we've thrown it on the term extended polycule.
Yes.
It feels like extended family,
even though those individuals aren't necessarily
in any sort of direct relationship with us.
One of us is dating one of them.
And so they're kind of, we are connected.
Yes.
You could draw a chart and draw a line.
There's a web of relationships going on there.
A chain, a connected chain.
Cool thing about metas is there is no
predetermined expectation around what a metamorph is
or does in your life.
We have a loose idea of what the word means,
but it doesn't really mean, you know,
we understand what a friend is or a partner.
Although even those can be tricky,
but there's no like predefined.
These are the kinds of things you do with a meta
or don't do with a meta or share with a meta.
That's also going to be highly individualized.
Yeah.
When we were discussing the outline for this episode,
I think we had a pretty good laugh
and we thought of the structural conceit of the good,
the bad, the complicated.
Yeah.
And it's kind of the overall theme
for metamores in this episode.
Yeah, because I think that metamore relationships
can be really complicated.
So let's start at a happy place.
Let's start with the good.
Yes.
Awesome.
What are some good things that come out of
meta relationships?
First on my mind is increased community support.
Yeah.
Your life is more full of people that can help.
True, yeah.
That have your back maybe.
It takes a village.
Yeah.
I think one that I've experienced a lot
is when you have a good relationship with a meta
or an open line of communication with a meta
is improves lines of communication.
So if you have a hinge partner
who is communicating between metas about,
even if it's just communicating about plans
or expectations or rules or boundaries,
if those two metas can talk to each other directly,
it just clears the air.
Sometimes I've been in situations
where it feels a little bit like phone tag.
Yeah.
And it's like.
Getting a telephone, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's like the message that's received on the other end
is not the same as what I was trying to communicate.
Yeah, because it has to go through
someone else's interpretation.
I think one thing that's kind of delightful about metas
that a lot of people,
I feel like I've seen lots of memes about
is just like,
there are times when people have a type,
they're drawn to a certain type of personality.
Yeah.
And so in those situations, yeah,
you can end up with a meta that you click.
You might have some things in common,
which your common partner was interested in
that drew them to both of you.
And you might enjoy teasing that partner
about some things that you have both experienced about them
or like.
I've never experienced that before.
Yeah, you never blush about that kind of teasing.
Never been ganged up on.
Lovingly.
Yeah.
So an example of something that can be fun
when it comes to metas is you have a long distance partner.
I do.
And so that partner doesn't have access to you,
like to come over or bring you things.
And so you guys often communicate
through sending mail to each other.
Like that's a way you can stay in touch
and share your lives with each other.
And because I am like boots on the ground here in town
with you, I can facilitate those packages
making their way into your apartment
or just make sure that they arrived or.
Right, when you hand make a gift for somebody,
it's often stressful to think about that gift
just sitting on their porch
while they're waiting for them to come home from work.
You don't want it to run away.
Yeah.
Or get wet.
So it's really handy to have someone local
to bring those in for you.
And then like, did you find like this actually happened.
Yes, yes, I guess I should clarify
that River and I worked together at one point
to facilitate one of these.
And it was really fun because he was able
to tell me specifically where he wanted me to hide it
in your apartment so that you could discover it.
And that the gift would be custom to the location.
And.
How do you get that level of like pre-planning
in a surprise gift is excellent.
For a long distance partner, yeah, right?
I think that's awesome.
It was really fun.
And that's, having good meta relationships
can like open all of these kinds of new and fun.
I kind of got to share in the secret a little bit
even though it wasn't my gift
and it wasn't really my thing.
But it was a surprise.
Yeah.
I had no idea it was gonna be there.
Yeah.
But you knew.
And that was fun, yeah.
Or something you've experienced is anytime you're over
at my house, Elliot makes extra coffee.
Like, and I didn't ask for that,
but it was just a small gesture to make me feel really,
really welcomed.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
And that was like, and he and I aren't dating.
Like he and I aren't, you know, like directly.
Well, at this point we're good friends,
but I just really loved that aspect
of my meta relationship.
So those are the good.
Yeah, those are the good.
We wanted to start there.
Yeah, we want to start there.
We're gonna ride that high.
Give you some good feels, good feels right now.
Because the next section is the more,
I don't want to say problematic,
but let's just say, you know, these are the struggles.
These are the challenges.
Yeah.
In my experience, when talking to people who are monogamous,
they, I think meta relationships are the ones
that they have the hardest time understanding.
They seem to focus on that in the mono world
or in a world of scarcity.
That is your competition.
Yeah, right, right.
Because traditionally in a mono world,
the new person comes along and they steal your partner away
and you're left alone.
But the funny thing is like in Polly was like,
we keep hearing it over and over.
But sometimes it's still, it's hard for it to stick.
Like, yeah, they added that new partner
and they still want you around too.
Like nothing's changed about that.
Did you see that meme I sent you the other day
that was like when people are afraid
I'm going to steal their partner.
It's like, I can't steal her.
She's not a goat.
Yeah, totally.
Right, right.
But that can, those feelings then interfere
with that person's ability to connect with that meta
because that meta is a competitor.
This is an arena.
And in some cases, there's certain types of Polly
where it exacerbates it even more
because if you are in a hierarchical relationship
or a veto relationship,
not only can your meta relationship be one
that's a focus point for these insecurities,
but that relationship can actually be one that has power
over your relationship to your partner.
They can make rules, they can make vetoes,
they can actually impact the things
that you're allowed to share with your partner.
And that really makes it challenging
to connect with that person.
Even though if you stop, I mean, I think one of the things
that's become really counterintuitive to me is
your partner is the one that's going through
with all of that and agreeing to all of those rules.
And if anything, you should ideally bring it up with them
or push back on them.
But so often it's so much easier to put it on the meta.
Exactly.
Oh, that so reminds me of how you see in typical society
where there's like a cheating situation
and the anger is almost always directed at the third person.
Yes, always.
It's never at their partner.
It's like you homewrecker, you came in here
and took my relationship.
It's like your partner also agreed to that.
Not holding that person accountable at all
for how that played out, like the partner.
Right, oh man, it's so toxic.
Like I really hate media that shows them fighting.
Yeah, me too.
So in our discussion of the rockier side,
the heavier side, I think the,
even though we're both involved
in all of these relationships we're going to talk about,
I think you were the one that experienced the most of
like where this can kind of go wrong.
Yes, yes.
So maybe you could tell from some of your experiences
of being a meta.
Yes, I do.
More than just with you, I have experiences of
being a meta that feels threatening to other partners.
And that was especially true when it came to you.
Yes.
Because when you and I met, you had two other partners.
I'm a much more kitchen table-y type
and I'm quick to recognize
that we probably have some things in common
and I could tell that I had some things in common
with these other partners.
But I also wanted to be respectful
of what they were looking for, what they wanted.
And so we attempted to do a parallel poly kind of setup
with no communication and very few interactions.
I mean, I think, I know there are people
who are able to make parallel poly work.
I think it became challenging in our situation very quickly
because you have public events that anyone can go to.
And to say like a partner is not allowed to come
just doesn't fit you.
And I don't think they made a blanket veto like that
but they did definitely refuse to come to any event
that they knew you might be at.
Right.
Which could be any event really.
Right.
So it was as if there was support for me just vanished.
If I was performing and I would love to see
some friendly faces in the stands, they wouldn't be there.
Yeah, and I had to, and then that, you know,
always had me on me. Or you might feel bad coming
knowing they would then refuse.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it was really challenging.
And some things that came up, especially as the years
went by is that one thing that, you know,
you and I would go on trips or you go on trips with them.
And I would realize like, oh, if something like serious
happened to you, I have no line of communication there.
Like I would never, like if I'm on a trip with you,
I'd have no way of telling them.
And if they're on a trip with you,
I'd have no way of hearing about it.
And I mean, we were pretty-
And if something happened on that trip.
Yeah, like serious to the point where like,
I wanna be there, I wanna help, I wanna be around,
like I'm invested.
So that was one of the initial boundaries
I realized I need to draw was like,
I need at least some open communication
just for emergencies even.
Right.
That's something that I had not even considered.
When you brought it up to me,
it was like, oh my gosh, of course.
Yeah, I'm a little bit of an awfulizer too.
So I can be, I just, you know, low level anxiety,
I'm always kind of managing, so.
It makes so much sense to me though.
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of like, anyone in a don't ask,
don't tell would also be in the same situation.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Like say the emergency personnel responding,
I mean, you would have your ID, hopefully.
You get IDed and then your emergency contacts
are looked up.
But this is what's tricky though.
I mean, so in this situation, you're married.
Right.
And your married partner
doesn't have a good relationship with me.
And so let's say something really serious did happen.
They're gonna contact that married partner,
they're gonna contact your parents maybe,
they're gonna talk, you know, your next to kin.
I'm not on that list, you know?
I mean, you weren't.
Yeah, well, yeah.
So that's a little,
there are a lot of people who are in situations like that,
not only because the culture
doesn't recognize poly relationships
the same way it recognizes marriages and mono relationships,
but also because if you have a tenuous relationship
with a meta, you can't be guaranteed
that they would contact you or reach out to you.
Right.
And I mean, there were multiple instances
where this was kind of a changing point for me,
where I discovered that I had hard line boundaries,
that, you know, these things are important issues
that going forward, I would address much sooner.
And it was-
They would become deal breakers for me, basically.
Yeah, it was that for me also.
Because there were various points
in the trajectory of things
where I had to kind of stop and go like,
this dynamic doesn't work for me,
I can't be this close-
Is not sustainable.
To a relationship where I am so shut out of the other side.
Or feel that kind of, not animosity,
but you feel the hostility?
I mean, it was.
It felt-
How would you describe it?
I don't wanna put words in your mouth.
Yeah, I do feel like there was a lot of,
I mean, all of the insecurity that was going on
was directed towards me.
Like, almost nothing was coming towards you.
It felt like you were just fine,
and everything you were doing was just fine,
but that other person, that Nova,
she's the source of the problems here.
And yeah, that was just-
I often felt myself wanting to bring it onto myself.
Yeah, I know, you tried.
I was like, stop projecting onto her specifically so much.
I was like, I'm in this too.
And then the discussion was shifted to me at some point.
That is true.
It did eventually get there.
It took quite a bit.
All of that sounds way more complicated
than we made it seem in the beginning of this episode.
Yeah, for sure.
Meta relationships are not straightforward.
So we've made it to the part of the good, the bad,
the complex that is the complex.
We are in the complex.
What makes meta relationships complex, in my opinion,
is the fact that they are people in your life
that you did not choose.
This is a big point.
In a world where chosen family is a common word
and a common concept.
You choose your friends.
I mean, you don't get to choose your biological family,
but you can choose how much you interact with them.
You know what, just randomly, as we're talking about it,
it reminds me of a step-parent.
Ooh, oh yeah.
Which I never had, but I can imagine how that feels
when your parent brings home a new partner one day
and is like, this is your new other parent.
And you're like.
This is your new mom.
Mm, okay.
This is your new caregiver.
Yeah.
Like, wow, yeah, wow, I didn't even make that parallel before.
I love that we have outlines,
we have pre-discussions about these episodes,
and we still surprise each other with these things.
So one of the experiences I can speak to
is my partner, River.
So he may have had this idea in his head
of this organic formation of a polycule
where he was kind of the catalyst
or more at the center of it.
Yeah.
When then.
Like things branching off from him.
And then he found himself dating me.
Yeah.
Who already had a preformed giant polycule.
Like long-term.
Right, yeah, a long-standing existing polycule
that he was then kind of nervous to join.
Yeah.
It wasn't how he imagined.
It is kind of hard to feel like a bit of an outsider.
Obviously, it's not ideal and we don't want
to portray this like clickish feel.
Sure.
But it can definitely be hard for someone
coming in as the new person.
And he had no choice in who his metas were.
They were all already here.
Well, that's true for everybody.
Right?
Oh, okay.
Yeah, exactly.
You start dating a new person,
all of their existing relationships are already there.
So we made it through the good, the bad, the complicated.
Absolutely.
What now?
Now, I think we should offer some tips,
some ideas, some thoughts we have.
Number one, boundaries.
This is a lesson I learned the hard way.
And we will definitely do a whole episode of boundaries.
Yes, absolutely.
But as we apply to this situation.
Very quick.
If you find yourself in a situation where your partners,
who are metas with each other,
have a fraught or difficult connection,
and you are the hinge,
it is, and I think we pointed this out earlier,
it will help you to think of it as part
of your responsibility to police the splash over
of one relationship into another.
Yeah.
Because you, any difficult choice or rule or situation
that affects your partner,
whether it's coming from one partner to the other,
has to go through you.
Yeah.
So you are the first line of defense.
You are responsible for protecting your relationships.
And the boundaries around those relationships.
And the way we do that is with strong boundaries.
Sorry, I got ahead of you.
No, it's okay.
No, it all works.
So they know where this is going.
No, they get it, they get it.
It's all good.
Something that can be really powerful
in meta relationships and in all relationships
is to cultivate, actively cultivate,
curiosity and compassion.
Compassion being, I think,
the maybe more important one for a meta.
So you have a meta, you know, in my case,
I had a meta who's struggling with,
more than one meta, who's struggling with insecurity.
It was interfering with my relationship with you.
And with them.
And I often reminded myself,
like it is really hard to deal with insecurity.
I have dealt with insecurity.
I know how special you are.
I know how scary it might be to imagine losing you.
Why they would be afraid to lose me.
And I could remind myself of that.
Yes, I don't like how they're choosing to act because of it,
but I do have compassion for those feelings.
And I have compassion for them.
And I have, and because you care about them,
I care about them too, in my own way.
I felt like I wasn't allowed to.
I was kind of like held away from caring about them,
but I can still care about them.
And the same goes for curiosity.
It's easy to think that you have people figure it out.
And like, well, this is how that meta has acted in the past.
And that's all they'll ever do.
They'll always be that way.
And instead just say like, okay,
what are they gonna bring to this interaction?
Let's bring some curiosity to the next time I see them.
Are they going to, now sometimes I can get a little problem.
I mean, there was almost too much curiosity
with one partner because I got a little bit of whiplash.
But I'd like to continue to keep working on that muscle
and get better at like bringing that curiosity each time.
And that was, those two were a big part of how I
was able to grapple with that situation.
I have to share one of the things that I thought was amazing
about the way you dealt with those situations is,
and the way you expressed your curiosity,
the way you put it into practice
is you were really curious about what was it
that I found so special and exciting
and wonderful about that relationship.
You liked hearing those things
because it helped you feel better about that person.
It helped me tap into compersion.
You understood why certain things were important to me
or special for me.
Yeah, totally.
Curiosity is amazing.
I don't think, you were worried about overplaying it.
I don't think you can.
I really don't think you can.
It's almost the whole reason for the podcast.
It's our curiosity about how people work.
True, true. That's a good point.
It's our mission statement.
So that was our episode.
Yeah, thanks for being here.
This has been really fun to talk about.
It's been so good to see you.
Thanks for coming back.
Yeah.
Were those good?
Yeah.
Sorry.
You're like, if one spike is good to line up shit,
how about eight?
I just thought it'd look pretty and it did.