1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000 Hi. 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,000 Hello. 3 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Hi. 4 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,000 Welcome to Mindful Poly. 5 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Hi. 6 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,000 I'm Nova. 7 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,000 And I'm Fox. 8 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,000 And today we are talking about? 9 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Metamours. 10 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Yes. 11 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,000 This is part of our Relationship Dynamics series. 12 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:16,000 So the simplest definition of a metamour is your partner's partner. 13 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:25,000 So in a world where you have metamores, you have metamours, you have metamores, you have 14 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,000 metamours, you have metamours, 15 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:37,340 have metamores, your partner has another partner, in that person, you would say, that is my metamour. 16 00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:38,700 I love it. 17 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:40,620 I love how simple it is. 18 00:00:40,620 --> 00:00:48,520 There are so many things in polyamory that are things that are familiar but then more 19 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:53,940 complex or complicated. 20 00:00:53,940 --> 00:00:57,720 Well, it isn't the first pass. 21 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,720 And then the second we started thinking about 22 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,860 how to define this, it immediately gets tricky 23 00:01:02,860 --> 00:01:07,860 because I mean, maybe in a parallel poly world, 24 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,200 you just say, that's my metamorph. 25 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,320 But like in a lot of other situations, 26 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:14,760 you might be like, that's my friend, that's my family. 27 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,600 And even sort of like, you can end up in situations 28 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,220 where you might share certain types of things 29 00:01:20,220 --> 00:01:22,080 with a metamorph, but not quite a partnership level. 30 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,960 Like maybe if you have, choose to share 31 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:26,240 some sort of physical connection 32 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,600 or an emotional connection or. 33 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,600 At what point do they stop becoming a meta 34 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,000 and turn into something else? 35 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:32,840 Yeah. 36 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,600 And that lines, where people draw that line 37 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,160 is different for everybody. 38 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,800 Also, how far does that extend? 39 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,420 Is your partner's partner's partner's partner's partner, 40 00:01:41,420 --> 00:01:42,260 your meta? 41 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:44,360 Or are they? 42 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,600 They're part of your extended constellation or extended. 43 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,320 Like we've thrown it on the term extended polycule. 44 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:51,160 Yes. 45 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:52,160 It feels like extended family, 46 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,680 even though those individuals aren't necessarily 47 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,360 in any sort of direct relationship with us. 48 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,000 One of us is dating one of them. 49 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,960 And so they're kind of, we are connected. 50 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:05,800 Yes. 51 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,280 You could draw a chart and draw a line. 52 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,000 There's a web of relationships going on there. 53 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,720 A chain, a connected chain. 54 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,600 Cool thing about metas is there is no 55 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,740 predetermined expectation around what a metamorph is 56 00:02:18,740 --> 00:02:20,480 or does in your life. 57 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,320 We have a loose idea of what the word means, 58 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,200 but it doesn't really mean, you know, 59 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,600 we understand what a friend is or a partner. 60 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,400 Although even those can be tricky, 61 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,680 but there's no like predefined. 62 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,720 These are the kinds of things you do with a meta 63 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,460 or don't do with a meta or share with a meta. 64 00:02:35,460 --> 00:02:37,640 That's also going to be highly individualized. 65 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:38,760 Yeah. 66 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,160 When we were discussing the outline for this episode, 67 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:42,360 I think we had a pretty good laugh 68 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,080 and we thought of the structural conceit of the good, 69 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,560 the bad, the complicated. 70 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:49,480 Yeah. 71 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,880 And it's kind of the overall theme 72 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,360 for metamores in this episode. 73 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,280 Yeah, because I think that metamore relationships 74 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,720 can be really complicated. 75 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,160 So let's start at a happy place. 76 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:04,360 Let's start with the good. 77 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:05,200 Yes. 78 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,240 Awesome. 79 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,160 What are some good things that come out of 80 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,340 meta relationships? 81 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,520 First on my mind is increased community support. 82 00:03:15,540 --> 00:03:16,600 Yeah. 83 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,040 Your life is more full of people that can help. 84 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,520 True, yeah. 85 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,520 That have your back maybe. 86 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:25,640 It takes a village. 87 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:26,700 Yeah. 88 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:28,920 I think one that I've experienced a lot 89 00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:32,280 is when you have a good relationship with a meta 90 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,720 or an open line of communication with a meta 91 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,860 is improves lines of communication. 92 00:03:37,860 --> 00:03:40,000 So if you have a hinge partner 93 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,400 who is communicating between metas about, 94 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,680 even if it's just communicating about plans 95 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,240 or expectations or rules or boundaries, 96 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,960 if those two metas can talk to each other directly, 97 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,800 it just clears the air. 98 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,680 Sometimes I've been in situations 99 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,400 where it feels a little bit like phone tag. 100 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:00,240 Yeah. 101 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,080 And it's like. 102 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:01,900 Getting a telephone, yeah. 103 00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:02,740 Yeah, yeah. 104 00:04:02,740 --> 00:04:05,200 And it's like the message that's received on the other end 105 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,440 is not the same as what I was trying to communicate. 106 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:09,440 Yeah, because it has to go through 107 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,600 someone else's interpretation. 108 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,040 I think one thing that's kind of delightful about metas 109 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,120 that a lot of people, 110 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:18,840 I feel like I've seen lots of memes about 111 00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:19,680 is just like, 112 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,800 there are times when people have a type, 113 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,440 they're drawn to a certain type of personality. 114 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,160 Yeah. 115 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,600 And so in those situations, yeah, 116 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,920 you can end up with a meta that you click. 117 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,840 You might have some things in common, 118 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:39,880 which your common partner was interested in 119 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,160 that drew them to both of you. 120 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,080 And you might enjoy teasing that partner 121 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,160 about some things that you have both experienced about them 122 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,520 or like. 123 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,400 I've never experienced that before. 124 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,200 Yeah, you never blush about that kind of teasing. 125 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,160 Never been ganged up on. 126 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,000 Lovingly. 127 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,640 Lovingly. 128 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:00,480 Yeah. 129 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,640 So an example of something that can be fun 130 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,240 when it comes to metas is you have a long distance partner. 131 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:08,080 I do. 132 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,800 And so that partner doesn't have access to you, 133 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,720 like to come over or bring you things. 134 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,820 And so you guys often communicate 135 00:05:15,820 --> 00:05:17,520 through sending mail to each other. 136 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,400 Like that's a way you can stay in touch 137 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,320 and share your lives with each other. 138 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:27,320 And because I am like boots on the ground here in town 139 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,680 with you, I can facilitate those packages 140 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,640 making their way into your apartment 141 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,200 or just make sure that they arrived or. 142 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:40,960 Right, when you hand make a gift for somebody, 143 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,120 it's often stressful to think about that gift 144 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,480 just sitting on their porch 145 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,600 while they're waiting for them to come home from work. 146 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:47,760 You don't want it to run away. 147 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:48,600 Yeah. 148 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:49,840 Or get wet. 149 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:52,760 So it's really handy to have someone local 150 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:53,840 to bring those in for you. 151 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:57,880 And then like, did you find like this actually happened. 152 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,200 Yes, yes, I guess I should clarify 153 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,080 that River and I worked together at one point 154 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,400 to facilitate one of these. 155 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,000 And it was really fun because he was able 156 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,960 to tell me specifically where he wanted me to hide it 157 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,460 in your apartment so that you could discover it. 158 00:06:14,460 --> 00:06:19,460 And that the gift would be custom to the location. 159 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:21,240 And. 160 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,240 How do you get that level of like pre-planning 161 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,360 in a surprise gift is excellent. 162 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,000 For a long distance partner, yeah, right? 163 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,160 I think that's awesome. 164 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,400 It was really fun. 165 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,220 And that's, having good meta relationships 166 00:06:34,220 --> 00:06:37,800 can like open all of these kinds of new and fun. 167 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,320 I kind of got to share in the secret a little bit 168 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:41,360 even though it wasn't my gift 169 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:42,200 and it wasn't really my thing. 170 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:43,600 But it was a surprise. 171 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:44,440 Yeah. 172 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:45,440 I had no idea it was gonna be there. 173 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:46,280 Yeah. 174 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:47,120 But you knew. 175 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:47,940 And that was fun, yeah. 176 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:52,800 Or something you've experienced is anytime you're over 177 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,040 at my house, Elliot makes extra coffee. 178 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,600 Like, and I didn't ask for that, 179 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,120 but it was just a small gesture to make me feel really, 180 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,200 really welcomed. 181 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,040 Yeah. 182 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:02,860 You know? 183 00:07:02,860 --> 00:07:03,700 Yeah. 184 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:05,960 And that was like, and he and I aren't dating. 185 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,880 Like he and I aren't, you know, like directly. 186 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:10,820 Well, at this point we're good friends, 187 00:07:10,820 --> 00:07:15,320 but I just really loved that aspect 188 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,300 of my meta relationship. 189 00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:18,640 So those are the good. 190 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:19,680 Yeah, those are the good. 191 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:20,880 We wanted to start there. 192 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:21,720 Yeah, we want to start there. 193 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:22,560 We're gonna ride that high. 194 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,120 Give you some good feels, good feels right now. 195 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,520 Because the next section is the more, 196 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,240 I don't want to say problematic, 197 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,440 but let's just say, you know, these are the struggles. 198 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:33,540 These are the challenges. 199 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:34,380 Yeah. 200 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:38,220 In my experience, when talking to people who are monogamous, 201 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:40,960 they, I think meta relationships are the ones 202 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,280 that they have the hardest time understanding. 203 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,800 They seem to focus on that in the mono world 204 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,720 or in a world of scarcity. 205 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:49,860 That is your competition. 206 00:07:49,860 --> 00:07:50,920 Yeah, right, right. 207 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,760 Because traditionally in a mono world, 208 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,720 the new person comes along and they steal your partner away 209 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,200 and you're left alone. 210 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,480 But the funny thing is like in Polly was like, 211 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,080 we keep hearing it over and over. 212 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:08,800 But sometimes it's still, it's hard for it to stick. 213 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,480 Like, yeah, they added that new partner 214 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,440 and they still want you around too. 215 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,440 Like nothing's changed about that. 216 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,160 Did you see that meme I sent you the other day 217 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,120 that was like when people are afraid 218 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:22,600 I'm going to steal their partner. 219 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,120 It's like, I can't steal her. 220 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,360 She's not a goat. 221 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,140 Yeah, totally. 222 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:29,360 Right, right. 223 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,680 But that can, those feelings then interfere 224 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:36,360 with that person's ability to connect with that meta 225 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,960 because that meta is a competitor. 226 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,260 This is an arena. 227 00:08:41,260 --> 00:08:45,320 And in some cases, there's certain types of Polly 228 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,760 where it exacerbates it even more 229 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,520 because if you are in a hierarchical relationship 230 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,100 or a veto relationship, 231 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:57,840 not only can your meta relationship be one 232 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,280 that's a focus point for these insecurities, 233 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,400 but that relationship can actually be one that has power 234 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,360 over your relationship to your partner. 235 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,240 They can make rules, they can make vetoes, 236 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,040 they can actually impact the things 237 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,000 that you're allowed to share with your partner. 238 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,240 And that really makes it challenging 239 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,080 to connect with that person. 240 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,520 Even though if you stop, I mean, I think one of the things 241 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,480 that's become really counterintuitive to me is 242 00:09:28,660 --> 00:09:31,000 your partner is the one that's going through 243 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,140 with all of that and agreeing to all of those rules. 244 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:37,880 And if anything, you should ideally bring it up with them 245 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,760 or push back on them. 246 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,000 But so often it's so much easier to put it on the meta. 247 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,560 Exactly. 248 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:48,960 Oh, that so reminds me of how you see in typical society 249 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,040 where there's like a cheating situation 250 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,560 and the anger is almost always directed at the third person. 251 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:57,400 Yes, always. 252 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,680 It's never at their partner. 253 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:01,480 It's like you homewrecker, you came in here 254 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,760 and took my relationship. 255 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,160 It's like your partner also agreed to that. 256 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,320 Not holding that person accountable at all 257 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,960 for how that played out, like the partner. 258 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,840 Right, oh man, it's so toxic. 259 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,120 Like I really hate media that shows them fighting. 260 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:17,960 Yeah, me too. 261 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,480 So in our discussion of the rockier side, 262 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,060 the heavier side, I think the, 263 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:30,480 even though we're both involved 264 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,160 in all of these relationships we're going to talk about, 265 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,240 I think you were the one that experienced the most of 266 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,600 like where this can kind of go wrong. 267 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:41,840 Yes, yes. 268 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,960 So maybe you could tell from some of your experiences 269 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,160 of being a meta. 270 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:47,360 Yes, I do. 271 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,880 More than just with you, I have experiences of 272 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,360 being a meta that feels threatening to other partners. 273 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,840 And that was especially true when it came to you. 274 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:01,680 Yes. 275 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:04,920 Because when you and I met, you had two other partners. 276 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,080 I'm a much more kitchen table-y type 277 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,120 and I'm quick to recognize 278 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,360 that we probably have some things in common 279 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,000 and I could tell that I had some things in common 280 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,240 with these other partners. 281 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,120 But I also wanted to be respectful 282 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,060 of what they were looking for, what they wanted. 283 00:11:22,060 --> 00:11:27,060 And so we attempted to do a parallel poly kind of setup 284 00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:34,740 with no communication and very few interactions. 285 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:37,900 I mean, I think, I know there are people 286 00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:39,940 who are able to make parallel poly work. 287 00:11:39,940 --> 00:11:42,820 I think it became challenging in our situation very quickly 288 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:47,020 because you have public events that anyone can go to. 289 00:11:47,020 --> 00:11:51,380 And to say like a partner is not allowed to come 290 00:11:51,380 --> 00:11:54,420 just doesn't fit you. 291 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:59,420 And I don't think they made a blanket veto like that 292 00:11:59,740 --> 00:12:03,500 but they did definitely refuse to come to any event 293 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:05,540 that they knew you might be at. 294 00:12:05,540 --> 00:12:06,380 Right. 295 00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:07,340 Which could be any event really. 296 00:12:07,340 --> 00:12:08,180 Right. 297 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:11,780 So it was as if there was support for me just vanished. 298 00:12:11,780 --> 00:12:14,780 If I was performing and I would love to see 299 00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:18,340 some friendly faces in the stands, they wouldn't be there. 300 00:12:18,340 --> 00:12:20,300 Yeah, and I had to, and then that, you know, 301 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:22,460 always had me on me. Or you might feel bad coming 302 00:12:22,460 --> 00:12:24,980 knowing they would then refuse. 303 00:12:24,980 --> 00:12:26,520 Yeah, absolutely. 304 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:28,620 Yeah, it was really challenging. 305 00:12:28,620 --> 00:12:30,940 And some things that came up, especially as the years 306 00:12:30,940 --> 00:12:33,620 went by is that one thing that, you know, 307 00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:37,260 you and I would go on trips or you go on trips with them. 308 00:12:37,260 --> 00:12:41,580 And I would realize like, oh, if something like serious 309 00:12:41,580 --> 00:12:45,020 happened to you, I have no line of communication there. 310 00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:47,820 Like I would never, like if I'm on a trip with you, 311 00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:49,220 I'd have no way of telling them. 312 00:12:49,220 --> 00:12:50,380 And if they're on a trip with you, 313 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:52,020 I'd have no way of hearing about it. 314 00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:53,580 And I mean, we were pretty- 315 00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:54,780 And if something happened on that trip. 316 00:12:54,780 --> 00:12:57,140 Yeah, like serious to the point where like, 317 00:12:57,140 --> 00:13:01,020 I wanna be there, I wanna help, I wanna be around, 318 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:03,180 like I'm invested. 319 00:13:03,180 --> 00:13:06,820 So that was one of the initial boundaries 320 00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:08,460 I realized I need to draw was like, 321 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:12,180 I need at least some open communication 322 00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:13,780 just for emergencies even. 323 00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:14,620 Right. 324 00:13:14,620 --> 00:13:18,580 That's something that I had not even considered. 325 00:13:18,580 --> 00:13:19,420 When you brought it up to me, 326 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:21,700 it was like, oh my gosh, of course. 327 00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,660 Yeah, I'm a little bit of an awfulizer too. 328 00:13:23,660 --> 00:13:28,660 So I can be, I just, you know, low level anxiety, 329 00:13:29,180 --> 00:13:31,100 I'm always kind of managing, so. 330 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:32,740 It makes so much sense to me though. 331 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:33,580 Yeah. 332 00:13:33,580 --> 00:13:35,940 I mean, it's kind of like, anyone in a don't ask, 333 00:13:35,940 --> 00:13:37,900 don't tell would also be in the same situation. 334 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:39,220 Oh yeah, for sure. 335 00:13:39,220 --> 00:13:43,180 Like say the emergency personnel responding, 336 00:13:43,180 --> 00:13:45,140 I mean, you would have your ID, hopefully. 337 00:13:45,140 --> 00:13:47,420 You get IDed and then your emergency contacts 338 00:13:47,420 --> 00:13:48,860 are looked up. 339 00:13:48,860 --> 00:13:50,420 But this is what's tricky though. 340 00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:53,540 I mean, so in this situation, you're married. 341 00:13:53,540 --> 00:13:54,380 Right. 342 00:13:54,380 --> 00:13:55,220 And your married partner 343 00:13:55,220 --> 00:13:57,220 doesn't have a good relationship with me. 344 00:13:57,220 --> 00:14:01,180 And so let's say something really serious did happen. 345 00:14:01,180 --> 00:14:03,620 They're gonna contact that married partner, 346 00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:05,740 they're gonna contact your parents maybe, 347 00:14:05,740 --> 00:14:08,100 they're gonna talk, you know, your next to kin. 348 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:10,300 I'm not on that list, you know? 349 00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:11,500 I mean, you weren't. 350 00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:13,040 Yeah, well, yeah. 351 00:14:14,140 --> 00:14:16,500 So that's a little, 352 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:19,420 there are a lot of people who are in situations like that, 353 00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:20,620 not only because the culture 354 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:23,460 doesn't recognize poly relationships 355 00:14:23,460 --> 00:14:27,620 the same way it recognizes marriages and mono relationships, 356 00:14:27,620 --> 00:14:30,700 but also because if you have a tenuous relationship 357 00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:32,820 with a meta, you can't be guaranteed 358 00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:36,900 that they would contact you or reach out to you. 359 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:37,740 Right. 360 00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:40,500 And I mean, there were multiple instances 361 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:45,060 where this was kind of a changing point for me, 362 00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:48,900 where I discovered that I had hard line boundaries, 363 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:52,060 that, you know, these things are important issues 364 00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:55,500 that going forward, I would address much sooner. 365 00:14:56,460 --> 00:14:57,300 And it was- 366 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:58,860 They would become deal breakers for me, basically. 367 00:14:58,860 --> 00:15:00,980 Yeah, it was that for me also. 368 00:15:01,860 --> 00:15:02,980 Because there were various points 369 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:04,900 in the trajectory of things 370 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:06,260 where I had to kind of stop and go like, 371 00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:09,040 this dynamic doesn't work for me, 372 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,380 I can't be this close- 373 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:12,340 Is not sustainable. 374 00:15:12,340 --> 00:15:17,340 To a relationship where I am so shut out of the other side. 375 00:15:17,860 --> 00:15:21,020 Or feel that kind of, not animosity, 376 00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:22,860 but you feel the hostility? 377 00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:23,700 I mean, it was. 378 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:24,540 It felt- 379 00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:26,140 How would you describe it? 380 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:28,860 I don't wanna put words in your mouth. 381 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:32,100 Yeah, I do feel like there was a lot of, 382 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:36,260 I mean, all of the insecurity that was going on 383 00:15:36,260 --> 00:15:37,740 was directed towards me. 384 00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:40,860 Like, almost nothing was coming towards you. 385 00:15:40,860 --> 00:15:43,340 It felt like you were just fine, 386 00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:44,780 and everything you were doing was just fine, 387 00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:47,960 but that other person, that Nova, 388 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,460 she's the source of the problems here. 389 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:54,420 And yeah, that was just- 390 00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:58,580 I often felt myself wanting to bring it onto myself. 391 00:15:58,580 --> 00:15:59,420 Yeah, I know, you tried. 392 00:15:59,420 --> 00:16:03,740 I was like, stop projecting onto her specifically so much. 393 00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:05,260 I was like, I'm in this too. 394 00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:10,260 And then the discussion was shifted to me at some point. 395 00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:12,340 That is true. 396 00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:13,380 It did eventually get there. 397 00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:14,420 It took quite a bit. 398 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,380 All of that sounds way more complicated 399 00:16:19,380 --> 00:16:21,460 than we made it seem in the beginning of this episode. 400 00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:22,300 Yeah, for sure. 401 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:24,260 Meta relationships are not straightforward. 402 00:16:24,260 --> 00:16:27,100 So we've made it to the part of the good, the bad, 403 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:28,860 the complex that is the complex. 404 00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:30,060 We are in the complex. 405 00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:33,580 What makes meta relationships complex, in my opinion, 406 00:16:33,580 --> 00:16:36,160 is the fact that they are people in your life 407 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,380 that you did not choose. 408 00:16:38,380 --> 00:16:41,260 This is a big point. 409 00:16:41,260 --> 00:16:44,780 In a world where chosen family is a common word 410 00:16:44,780 --> 00:16:45,620 and a common concept. 411 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:46,940 You choose your friends. 412 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:49,180 I mean, you don't get to choose your biological family, 413 00:16:49,180 --> 00:16:51,980 but you can choose how much you interact with them. 414 00:16:51,980 --> 00:16:54,300 You know what, just randomly, as we're talking about it, 415 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:57,020 it reminds me of a step-parent. 416 00:16:57,020 --> 00:16:58,900 Ooh, oh yeah. 417 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:01,400 Which I never had, but I can imagine how that feels 418 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,380 when your parent brings home a new partner one day 419 00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:08,220 and is like, this is your new other parent. 420 00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:09,060 And you're like. 421 00:17:09,060 --> 00:17:09,900 This is your new mom. 422 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:11,700 Mm, okay. 423 00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:13,220 This is your new caregiver. 424 00:17:13,220 --> 00:17:14,120 Yeah. 425 00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:18,140 Like, wow, yeah, wow, I didn't even make that parallel before. 426 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:20,540 I love that we have outlines, 427 00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:22,340 we have pre-discussions about these episodes, 428 00:17:22,340 --> 00:17:25,180 and we still surprise each other with these things. 429 00:17:25,180 --> 00:17:27,140 So one of the experiences I can speak to 430 00:17:27,140 --> 00:17:29,060 is my partner, River. 431 00:17:29,060 --> 00:17:31,820 So he may have had this idea in his head 432 00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:34,140 of this organic formation of a polycule 433 00:17:34,140 --> 00:17:36,740 where he was kind of the catalyst 434 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:38,060 or more at the center of it. 435 00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:39,060 Yeah. 436 00:17:39,060 --> 00:17:39,900 When then. 437 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:41,540 Like things branching off from him. 438 00:17:41,540 --> 00:17:44,260 And then he found himself dating me. 439 00:17:44,260 --> 00:17:45,100 Yeah. 440 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:47,680 Who already had a preformed giant polycule. 441 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:48,820 Like long-term. 442 00:17:48,820 --> 00:17:53,620 Right, yeah, a long-standing existing polycule 443 00:17:53,620 --> 00:17:57,400 that he was then kind of nervous to join. 444 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:58,240 Yeah. 445 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,260 It wasn't how he imagined. 446 00:18:00,260 --> 00:18:03,980 It is kind of hard to feel like a bit of an outsider. 447 00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:07,780 Obviously, it's not ideal and we don't want 448 00:18:07,780 --> 00:18:10,060 to portray this like clickish feel. 449 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:10,900 Sure. 450 00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:12,780 But it can definitely be hard for someone 451 00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:14,280 coming in as the new person. 452 00:18:15,380 --> 00:18:19,860 And he had no choice in who his metas were. 453 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:21,060 They were all already here. 454 00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:22,140 Well, that's true for everybody. 455 00:18:22,140 --> 00:18:22,980 Right? 456 00:18:22,980 --> 00:18:23,820 Oh, okay. 457 00:18:23,820 --> 00:18:24,640 Yeah, exactly. 458 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,260 You start dating a new person, 459 00:18:26,260 --> 00:18:29,500 all of their existing relationships are already there. 460 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:33,060 So we made it through the good, the bad, the complicated. 461 00:18:33,060 --> 00:18:33,900 Absolutely. 462 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:36,420 What now? 463 00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:39,860 Now, I think we should offer some tips, 464 00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:42,220 some ideas, some thoughts we have. 465 00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:45,020 Number one, boundaries. 466 00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:46,900 This is a lesson I learned the hard way. 467 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:49,220 And we will definitely do a whole episode of boundaries. 468 00:18:49,220 --> 00:18:50,060 Yes, absolutely. 469 00:18:50,060 --> 00:18:51,620 But as we apply to this situation. 470 00:18:51,620 --> 00:18:52,940 Very quick. 471 00:18:52,940 --> 00:18:53,760 Very quick. 472 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,760 If you find yourself in a situation where your partners, 473 00:18:58,940 --> 00:19:00,340 who are metas with each other, 474 00:19:01,660 --> 00:19:04,820 have a fraught or difficult connection, 475 00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:07,300 and you are the hinge, 476 00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:11,080 it is, and I think we pointed this out earlier, 477 00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:15,820 it will help you to think of it as part 478 00:19:15,820 --> 00:19:20,460 of your responsibility to police the splash over 479 00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:23,180 of one relationship into another. 480 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:24,580 Yeah. 481 00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:29,580 Because you, any difficult choice or rule or situation 482 00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:34,000 that affects your partner, 483 00:19:34,940 --> 00:19:37,740 whether it's coming from one partner to the other, 484 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:39,020 has to go through you. 485 00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:39,860 Yeah. 486 00:19:39,860 --> 00:19:42,020 So you are the first line of defense. 487 00:19:42,020 --> 00:19:44,620 You are responsible for protecting your relationships. 488 00:19:44,620 --> 00:19:46,180 And the boundaries around those relationships. 489 00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:47,620 And the boundaries around those relationships. 490 00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:50,100 And the way we do that is with strong boundaries. 491 00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:51,300 Sorry, I got ahead of you. 492 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:52,140 No, it's okay. 493 00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:53,140 No, it all works. 494 00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:53,980 So they know where this is going. 495 00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:54,940 No, they get it, they get it. 496 00:19:54,940 --> 00:19:56,300 It's all good. 497 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,740 Something that can be really powerful 498 00:19:58,740 --> 00:20:01,340 in meta relationships and in all relationships 499 00:20:01,340 --> 00:20:04,520 is to cultivate, actively cultivate, 500 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:05,820 curiosity and compassion. 501 00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:07,320 Compassion being, I think, 502 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,580 the maybe more important one for a meta. 503 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:15,460 So you have a meta, you know, in my case, 504 00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:17,580 I had a meta who's struggling with, 505 00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:20,160 more than one meta, who's struggling with insecurity. 506 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,000 It was interfering with my relationship with you. 507 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:22,840 And with them. 508 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,580 And I often reminded myself, 509 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:29,800 like it is really hard to deal with insecurity. 510 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,560 I have dealt with insecurity. 511 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,440 I know how special you are. 512 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,440 I know how scary it might be to imagine losing you. 513 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,700 Why they would be afraid to lose me. 514 00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:44,700 And I could remind myself of that. 515 00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:48,960 Yes, I don't like how they're choosing to act because of it, 516 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,460 but I do have compassion for those feelings. 517 00:20:51,460 --> 00:20:52,620 And I have compassion for them. 518 00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:56,340 And I have, and because you care about them, 519 00:20:56,340 --> 00:20:58,260 I care about them too, in my own way. 520 00:20:58,260 --> 00:21:00,420 I felt like I wasn't allowed to. 521 00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:02,860 I was kind of like held away from caring about them, 522 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:04,640 but I can still care about them. 523 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,960 And the same goes for curiosity. 524 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,060 It's easy to think that you have people figure it out. 525 00:21:11,060 --> 00:21:15,620 And like, well, this is how that meta has acted in the past. 526 00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:17,080 And that's all they'll ever do. 527 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,040 They'll always be that way. 528 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,380 And instead just say like, okay, 529 00:21:21,380 --> 00:21:24,700 what are they gonna bring to this interaction? 530 00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:28,740 Let's bring some curiosity to the next time I see them. 531 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:32,700 Are they going to, now sometimes I can get a little problem. 532 00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:34,500 I mean, there was almost too much curiosity 533 00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:38,480 with one partner because I got a little bit of whiplash. 534 00:21:40,580 --> 00:21:45,580 But I'd like to continue to keep working on that muscle 535 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,000 and get better at like bringing that curiosity each time. 536 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,180 And that was, those two were a big part of how I 537 00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:58,880 was able to grapple with that situation. 538 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,740 I have to share one of the things that I thought was amazing 539 00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:07,740 about the way you dealt with those situations is, 540 00:22:09,180 --> 00:22:10,980 and the way you expressed your curiosity, 541 00:22:10,980 --> 00:22:12,780 the way you put it into practice 542 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:17,260 is you were really curious about what was it 543 00:22:17,260 --> 00:22:18,980 that I found so special and exciting 544 00:22:18,980 --> 00:22:21,220 and wonderful about that relationship. 545 00:22:21,220 --> 00:22:23,140 You liked hearing those things 546 00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:27,060 because it helped you feel better about that person. 547 00:22:27,060 --> 00:22:29,740 It helped me tap into compersion. 548 00:22:29,740 --> 00:22:32,020 You understood why certain things were important to me 549 00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:33,140 or special for me. 550 00:22:33,140 --> 00:22:34,220 Yeah, totally. 551 00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:35,300 Curiosity is amazing. 552 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:37,380 I don't think, you were worried about overplaying it. 553 00:22:37,380 --> 00:22:38,220 I don't think you can. 554 00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:40,580 I really don't think you can. 555 00:22:40,580 --> 00:22:42,620 It's almost the whole reason for the podcast. 556 00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:45,580 It's our curiosity about how people work. 557 00:22:45,580 --> 00:22:47,260 True, true. That's a good point. 558 00:22:47,260 --> 00:22:49,660 It's our mission statement. 559 00:22:49,660 --> 00:22:50,900 So that was our episode. 560 00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:52,100 Yeah, thanks for being here. 561 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:53,380 This has been really fun to talk about. 562 00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:55,220 It's been so good to see you. 563 00:22:55,220 --> 00:22:56,180 Thanks for coming back. 564 00:22:56,180 --> 00:22:57,020 Yeah. 565 00:23:03,660 --> 00:23:04,500 Were those good? 566 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:05,340 Yeah. 567 00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:08,100 Sorry. 568 00:23:09,340 --> 00:23:12,740 You're like, if one spike is good to line up shit, 569 00:23:12,740 --> 00:23:13,580 how about eight? 570 00:23:13,580 --> 00:23:18,580 I just thought it'd look pretty and it did.