Hi.
Hello.
Good to see you.
Yeah, good to see you too.
Welcome back.
Welcome.
To Mindful Poly.
I'm Nova.
I'm Fox.
And this time we're going to be talking about AroAce, or aromantic slash asexuality.
This is our gender and sexuality series.
Yeah, and I think it's going to be important on this series as we talk about different
genders and different sexualities to ideally bring in guests who have experience with it,
because we can only guess at what it might be like.
Right.
If that's not our experience, we won't speak to it.
Right.
Which is why we're starting with AroAce, because I identify somewhere on the Aeroace
spectrum.
Mm-hmm.
Don't you, you specifically say gray AroAce.
I do.
But I, it's, all of these terms are only helpful if they're helpful, you know?
So it's kind of tricky.
Right.
I mean, different things to different people.
Yeah, and I'm still kind of dialing in that for myself.
So let's start by defining these terms.
Yeah.
My understanding of asexuality would be a lack of sexual attraction to others, or at
least low drive or low desire for sexual activity.
Right.
Yes.
I think that's a pretty good base definition to start from for this.
And it's differentiated from like people who abstain from sex.
Because the others are like a conscious decision.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think a common, like one misconception, we'll have lots of these, but one of the first
ones is just the idea that asexual people never have sex.
True or false?
False.
Correct.
Yes.
There are lots of reasons why people who identify as asexual might still have sex.
They do, some still do experience sexual desire.
Or you know, there's lots of other reasons to have sex.
It's a way to feel close to a partner.
It's a way to make a child, if that's something you're interested in doing.
It's not saying that you're asexual doesn't immediately mean that you never engage in
sex.
Or that you think sex is gross.
True.
Right.
Some do.
Sure.
Because all of these things exist on a, I was going to say spectrum, but I like continuum.
Yes.
Because there's no outer limits.
Right.
So we can pick any two points and every space in between exists.
Right.
Which is true of I think all the gender and sexuality conversations we're going to have.
Yeah.
So one spectrum that we commonly talk about is the Kinsey scale.
We talk about how you can be anywhere from quote unquote gay to straight and anywhere
in between.
And we're, people are, it's a one, two, three, four, five, six.
But I think the most important takeaway from that is not necessarily the scale or which
number are you, but just the idea that you can be somewhere in between.
So then if we take that same sort of scale or gradation and we apply it to your gender,
we apply it to your desire for sex, to your desire for romantic connections or whatever,
then you can have all these dials where you're like, I'm kind of over here and I'm kind of
over there and I'm kind of over here, but in this situation I'm over there.
Right.
So the other thing I'll say about asexuality is I feel like it's kind of having its moment
a little bit right now.
You know, like I think-
More visibility?
Yeah.
I think both trans and ace are kind of starting to be more widely adopted, starting to be
talked about more and more and more people are feeling more comfortable adopting those
labels or identifying that way as an easy way to help others understand them.
Which is wonderful.
Yeah.
Right.
So the second part of the Aero Ace episode is Aero, standing for aromantic.
Yeah.
Which in my understanding is challenging to define.
Yeah.
Oh, I like the way you- Yes, it is challenging.
You're right.
Because you're trying to give a definition to what is romance, what is romantic.
Indeed.
Which is I think kind of a personal thing.
Even sex can be a lot of different things to different people, but romantic, that word
can be even more things.
It's so nebulous.
Yes.
And it's so highly individualized to the person, like their understanding their definition
of it.
So people who identify as aromantic can be anything from someone who really enjoys sex
and maybe enjoys friendship connections, but doesn't really connect with some of the things
that we identify as romantic.
So maybe like holding hands or writing love letters or-
They don't hold the same importance.
Yeah, it's kind of like they could maybe go through the motions of that, but not really
feel that kind of the romantic-y feelings that other people associate with those kinds
of activities.
And there are other people on the other side of things where if they're also asexual, so
it might be aromantic.
People might think, oh, that means you never experienced love or you don't care deeply
about people, and that's also not true.
Right.
An aromantic person can still experience love and still share those kinds of connections.
Grow strong bonds.
Yeah, it's just a different, like they could feel really strongly and deeply love their
friends but not really want to cuddle with them or not really want to hold hands or kiss
or do romantic gestures or any of those things that are hallmarks of romance.
Or they just wouldn't need those gestures in order to feel that kind of connection with
somebody.
Sure, yeah.
That's the other side of it.
That's another spectrum is all the way from lack of desiring it to lack of expecting it.
Yeah, it kind of feels like what you're saying.
Yeah.
Right.
Most people would be like, oh, I'm doing these things for you because I want to show you
that I love you or that I care or you're important to me.
And they may have a completely different definition for what it takes for that feeling to come
across.
Yeah.
You don't actually need to do those things for me.
I didn't ask for them.
Right.
Sure, I think it can be really interesting for aero and ace people in relationships because
they might define a relationship in a particular way and the other person in that partnership
or relationship may think differently or have a different label for what the two of them
share and that's okay because that's just, you know, I personally have had people that
I considered partners that would have probably just called me a friend as far as what word
they would use and I would consider them a partner because of how much I prioritize them
in my life.
So yeah, let's talk about the other versions of that.
So alloromantic and allosexual would be someone who does experience those things.
Right.
Which would be you.
Right?
That would be me.
Yes.
I identify as both, which just means that I do have those things.
I don't know if you could say very much more or less than your average person because it's
not like a hyper focus on them, but they are part of my...
It might be the other is like hypersexual.
Right?
Or hyper romantic.
Yeah.
I don't know.
That might exist.
I'm sure some people identify as that like, oh, I'm very, very, very much this.
Yeah.
To an extreme.
Absolutely.
I would say my experience is more like a middle road.
Yeah.
One of the ways I would like to explore since we're doing this topic with a person who identifies
as this label is kind of telling, I think, I don't know if this is the formula we'll
use for all of our episodes, but kind of hearing a story of like, how did you arrive at this
label?
Yeah.
I want to know how you got to this space where, how did you learn this about yourself?
Okay.
So I think for a lot of people, I would imagine this is true for a lot of people with whatever
their label is, that once they've found it and then they look back on their past, they're
like, oh, yep.
Okay.
Ah.
So I mean, I will tell you the story of my first ever boyfriend, which was in seventh
grade.
So I've crushed on him and I don't remember who wrote who a note.
One of us wrote a note to the other asking them out.
They replied by note saying yes.
So we were technically dating and we avoided each other at every possible chance for the
next week until I think it was him that wrote me a note and was like, we probably should
break up.
And I was like, yeah.
Wow.
And that was my first romantic experience.
So do you remember what it felt like, why you felt like that feeling was called a crush?
I now would describe what I probably felt was that I thought they were aesthetically
pleasing.
I thought they were cute to look at and they seemed like a nice person.
And that was it.
And I was like, that must be what I'm feeling.
I think you had a good idea of that.
What I didn't understand is that for other people, those feelings also came with a desire
for closeness and a desire to share certain activities that I didn't want to do.
Wow.
Okay.
So I feel like your friends, maybe they were excited for you.
That's an exciting thing for a adolescent.
But then if you had told them, you're like, oh yeah.
And he said yes.
And they're like, well, what are you going to do?
And you're like, I don't want to do anything.
I hope I never see him again.
Yep.
Wow.
It's funny.
And then when you broke up, you were like relieved.
Oh yes.
Very much.
And that's been true with other relationships as well.
So then we fast forward to high school, very similar thing occurred.
I was crushing on a guy and found out that he liked me too.
We started dating.
That time we actually did go and hang out in person on things.
And I was like, wow, I hope he doesn't kiss me.
I really don't want to hold his hand.
I hope that nothing physical occurs.
You're on the same pins and needles.
But it's so nice that he likes me.
It's so great.
That's so cool.
I like him and he likes me.
That's lovely.
And I think maybe I could be misremembering it, but I think maybe he cheated on me with
someone else and he felt really bad about it.
And I was like, no, that's cool.
You should probably go date her.
That's cool.
You weren't even mad about it.
Of course not.
I was relieved yet again because I was in the situation that I didn't actually want
to be in.
But the funny thing for me in recounting them is just how much it screams at you once you've
adopted the label, it just screams at you.
So later in life, you look back at those times and went, ah, I see.
Yes.
So we'll fast forward again.
And then now I'm in college and I had sex for the first time with a partner that I didn't
actually want to.
So it was the first time I felt I had a partner that I did want to kiss and I did want to
hold hands with.
I did want to have sex with and we did and it was great and I was excited.
I'm so glad it was a positive experience.
So then I was like, yeah, let's get married.
Which we did.
No, actually he was the one that wanted to, but yes.
And also I just thought, well, this is what you do.
I spent that many years and this is the first time I've ever wanted this.
So this must be my one.
It must be the one.
The one.
That's what people mean when they say the one.
Or not.
Your mileage may vary.
Yeah.
I don't want to get into too many details about each of these because there's a lot
to tell.
But as that relationship ended, I started a new relationship with Elliot and we started
out as non-monogamous right from the get go.
And I didn't really have a clear sense of what that would mean, but in popular culture,
most of my exposure to non-monogamy had been swinging.
And so I thought, okay, we're going to be non-monogamous.
That means we're going to have a lot of fun, crazy sex with people.
So I was kind of like going into it thinking like, yeah, I'm going to have a lot of fun.
I have very few sexual experiences in my life and it'll be a blast.
So that didn't sound weird to you or gross at all.
You were just like, oh no, I might like that.
No, I mean a lot of other people were doing it and it seemed like they were having a lot
of fun.
Yeah.
You're like, why not me?
It seems great.
I was like, all right.
But you didn't have these thoughts about it like, this has been so rare for me so far.
I don't anticipate it being difficult to connect with.
No, it was just not clicking for me.
So I just wasn't putting those pieces together yet.
I thought maybe, and I've seen other ACE people say this, I thought, I was raised religious.
I thought maybe I had some really strong repression going on.
So I thought once I break free of all that, then I'm just going to be having a blast,
party party all over.
Cool.
Did that happen?
Not what happened.
I often got in a lot of situations where I was like, okay, so we do this and we do this
and we do this and then everything will fall into place and I'll feel the things I'm supposed
to feel.
Right?
Like this person's really cute and they want to hang out with me, so let's hang out.
And then the expectation is that things go to the bedroom and I'm like, yeah, okay, that's
what we do.
So I ended up honestly having sex with a lot of people that I didn't ultimately want to
have sex with because I felt like I was following the script and that at some point it would
feel right and it didn't feel right.
It just continued to not feel right each time.
So you would regret it afterwards?
Or like during?
Would you have this realization during?
Oh, for sure.
Oh, wow.
It wasn't...
Yeah, like immediately kind of once it starts, you're like, oh.
This was a bad decision.
And with newer partners, you may or may not feel safe sharing something like that.
Especially if you do still want to build a connection with them.
I never knew if maybe it would come in time.
So I would fear if I rejected them in that moment and that was the end of it, then it's
like, oh, but maybe in time I would have eventually felt that desire or it would have sprung up
out of somewhere.
Wow.
So you're trying to give it enough time to where you really knew.
Yeah, I thought maybe...
Like I think this is definitely not going to happen.
Hadn't clicked in place yet or I hadn't quite finished dealing with my, I don't know, repressed...
But that happened commonly?
It was very frequent for the other person to feel more than I was feeling.
To want more than I could offer.
That is a repeated experience in my relationships of all time.
That is almost always what occurs.
So I remember you once telling me that it was like, that kind of made you a little wary.
At a certain point you got to the point where when you were starting new relationships,
you were almost like, is this going to be a thing I feel?
New relationships kind of got scary.
Right?
Yeah.
And because I've had some of those other negative experiences, I kind of started giving up on
the idea of like, well, we could still be friends.
Let's try friendship because so many people didn't handle that well.
Yeah, they wanted it to be more.
Or they'd say, yeah, that's fine.
And then they'd give me those eyes and I'd be like, oh my God, I'm just going to disappoint
you every time we spend time together.
You're just going to want things that I can't give you.
So it put pressure on you, this unrequitedness that they were feeling.
Oh yeah.
Oh wow.
Even if they didn't verbally pressure you.
No, I'm just fairly empathetic and I can sense what's in the air.
Oh my.
Yeah.
Man, that sounds like, so at a certain point though, I have to imagine that it becomes
not just an obstacle you have to overcome or you just keep looking for the one rare
individual of, oh, I do have this with this person, so let's give this a shot.
Or I think a lot of people before they find labels that work for them feel broken.
Right.
So at a certain point, when did you realize that this was normal and it's just a way to
understand yourself and you didn't feel like it was something you lacked or were broken
about?
I mean, I feel like that was a very recent realization.
Oh wow.
So you haven't even had a whole lot of experience not feeling broken about it.
Yeah.
And I got really, I really struggled with seeing myself as a heartbreaker because I
felt-
You were just leaving a path of destruction in your wake.
That is what it felt like, yeah.
Wow.
Because I just couldn't reciprocate with so many, like there were so many people that
I met and this is something that I thought was really, I've heard other ace people describe
it and I find it really interesting, which is talking, I kept bringing up how aesthetically
pleasing someone is.
You're like, I do feel like they are attractive.
Yes, right.
So you might assume-
Does that mean I am attracted?
You might assume that I never experienced attraction, never think people are cute, I'm
never drawn to people and that's actually not true.
I am and I do find people really hot.
I'm like, oh man, that person.
But I heard someone describe it this way and they're like, I find that person hot the same
way I find a really beautifully organized bookshelf hot that's got the color schemes
all looking good or like, ooh.
You can say that's beautiful.
That painting is really, ooh, wow, that is beautiful.
It's evocative.
I feel something, I'm feeling something about it.
I've learned now over time that that feeling does not mean that I also want to be physically
close to them.
Those two have nothing to do with each other and that was very weird and very hard because
it was very clear to me that for other people, those things connect.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
For other people, those things connect in an unspokenly assumed way that is just like,
they can't imagine one without the other.
I know.
You find me hot, therefore you want me is the assumption.
And it's like I do.
I want to be close to that person.
I'd love to keep looking at them.
Sure.
But I don't.
It's like you are hot.
Want them to touch me necessarily.
End of sentence.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think to bring this all back to a poly context, which is important, we're not necessarily
here just to talk about what it's like to be ace or aro.
I think being ace and aro in the poly world can be a blessing and a curse at the same
time.
I think it feels like a really good match for me as an aro ace person because it gives
me more freedom to express who I want to be in any given connection and not feel like
I'm holding a partner back from finding, you know, if sex is something that's really important
to them, then I'm not holding them back from finding that somewhere else if I'm not offering
that.
Right.
So you felt like another instance where you felt relief about it.
Yes.
But on the other side of it, where it feels a little bit like a curse in poly is that
I am dating more people and finding more people and making more connections.
And it's most, I'm going to say most, a lot of people who are more aro or maybe if we're
going to say hyper, any of these, do prioritize connections that are romantic or sexual or
both often over platonic connections.
You've had that happen to you before.
Right.
So I have to kind of accept that for a lot of the connections in my world, we might be
mismatched in how much we prioritize that connection.
I might prioritize it very highly because what we do share is very special to me.
And I don't, you know, I of course don't mind it not having those pieces and I have to accept
that for them missing the romantic connection or missing the sexual connection can be like
kind of a deal breaker.
It's just, it's not that they don't appreciate me or enjoy spending time with me.
It's just that the lack of those things, those things are really important to them and they
want to prioritize and offer time to the people in their lives who are sharing those things
with them, which is their right to do.
It's just, it can be hard to watch.
Right.
And they've decided that's a need for them and that's good.
Yeah, it's totally fine.
It's something that I have to work through and kind of come to terms with.
And it's part of me being my authentic self is knowing that I might be mismatched in the
overlap I can offer with a lot of people.
So arrow and aceness aren't your whole identity.
It's not your whole being.
For sure.
Right.
So how does this new adoption of those terms interact with the rest of the way that you
understand yourself?
Yeah, that part has been really interesting to me because what I have discovered ultimately
is for me, ace and arrow, that label being gray, ace, arrow overshadows any other label.
Oh, wow.
Because I mean, I could be Polly all I want, but I'm not because it's so rare for me to
have a sexual and romantic desire for people.
I am rarely sharing that kind of connection with more than one person.
I can look, I can play mono on TV pretty easily through the course of my time being Polly.
You could, I could, I could, you know, fake it.
You were functionally mono a lot of that time.
Yes.
And that's not because I'm not fully embracing the Polly label or I'm like, feel like I shouldn't
feel that way.
It's just that like, it's so rare for me to find people I want to share that with that
I rarely find more than one at the same time.
So yeah, so I've found that and that also hugely, hugely, hugely overshadows my pansexuality
because when it comes to non hetero connections, you know, there's a smaller pool, you know,
if you're, or if you're looking for a non hetero connection, there's a smaller pool
of people who are interested in sharing that with you.
And so if we take what to me feels like a one in a million kind of pool of like people
I'm attracted to, and then I have to go look, go fishing in this pool of people who would
actually be interested in sharing that with me and find that one person that I actually
would experience that kind of connection with.
It feels like it would never happen.
And it hasn't happened yet.
I've mostly had hetero relationships.
So right.
I love hearing your perspective and the way you describe these things because it's so
different from mine.
Yeah.
Well, that's, that's part of what we're trying to do.
I think with this kind of series is share different kinds of voices.
Yeah.
So as we wrap up the Aero Ace episode, I think it would be fun if you want to know more or
want to hear another person's experience about this, check out the YouTuber Jaden animations
they did a fantastic animated video and like kind of a, it's almost kind of conversational
journal entry about it where they described their experience.
The name of the video is called being not straight and you can find it on YouTube.
It's like 18 million.
I felt very seen watching that.
Really?
Yes.
Yeah, that was a good one.
Well, I guess that's our Aero Ace show.
Awesome.
I don't have a lot of personal details about me, but hopefully it gave you some ideas of
what it might be like in my head, in my world, in this label and hopefully other Ace Aero
people identify with at least parts of my story or, or maybe not.
Maybe they have completely different stories and if you'd love to, if you'd like to send
us a message about that, podcast at mindfulpoly.com, be happy to hear other stories.
Please write in, share your experience.
Yeah.
I think that would be great.
And we do intend to do future episodes on other experiences as well.
Absolutely.
I'd love to hear more.
Yep.
Other identifications and, and labels and stuff.
So yeah, thanks for joining us.
This is mindfulpoly.
We'll see you next time.
Yeah.
Bye.
I did some really fun vamping while you were gone.
I believe it.
I can see it.
Yeah.
I recorded a lot of stuff.
You're going to have fun editing that.