1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000 Hey. 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,000 Hi. 3 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Welcome. 4 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,000 Hi. 5 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Hello. 6 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,000 Good to see you. 7 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Good to see you too. 8 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,000 Welcome back to Mindful Poly. 9 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Yeah. 10 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,000 This is our new episode. 11 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,000 Well, this will be the first episode in our philosophy series. 12 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,000 I love philosophy. 13 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,000 I know. 14 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,000 You've been excited about this one. 15 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:15,000 I have been. 16 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Today we're going to talk about dialectic thinking. 17 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,000 Yeah. 18 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,000 Do you know what that means? 19 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,000 Why don't you tell me? 20 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,000 I do. 21 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,000 I have a lot of fun. 22 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000 I'm excited. 23 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:23,000 I'm excited. 24 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,000 I'm excited. 25 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:25,000 I'm excited. 26 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,000 I'm excited. 27 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,000 I'm excited. 28 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,000 I'm excited. 29 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:29,000 I'm excited. 30 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,000 I'm excited. 31 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,000 I'm excited. 32 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,000 I do. 33 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,000 I have my definition out of how I understand it. 34 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,000 Yeah. 35 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:39,680 But I know it comes from deeper, more technical things that we're just going to give a brief 36 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,440 mention of and then jump into how we apply it to relationships. 37 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:44,440 Yeah. 38 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:45,440 Yeah. 39 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,480 I think there's official versions of it and then there's a version that we- 40 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:51,760 Have appropriated from philosophy. 41 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,160 In our everyday conversations. 42 00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:00,480 So the history of dialectic thinking begins with a philosopher named Hegel. 43 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,360 He has a much longer name than I'm not going to try to pronounce because I think I'll just 44 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,360 butcher it. 45 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:10,180 So it comprises of three dialectical stages of development. 46 00:01:10,180 --> 00:01:16,160 So you start with a thesis, which gives rise to a reaction, which contradicts or negates 47 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:21,320 the thesis and the tension between the two being resolved by means of a synthesis. 48 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:24,920 So that was a very technical definition. 49 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:31,000 But what that means is just that you've got one view, you've got the opposite view, and 50 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,880 how do you bring them together and synthesize them into one thing, basically. 51 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,800 That's the takeaway I at least have of it. 52 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,960 There might be other ways of understanding it. 53 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:40,960 Sure. 54 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:41,960 Yeah. 55 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:46,480 And this isn't a philosophy podcast per se, so we're not experts and we're not here to 56 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,400 literally teach you philosophy. 57 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,720 Could highly recommend Philosophize This if you'd like to go. 58 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,840 Oh, please go listen to Philosophize This. 59 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:53,840 It's amazing. 60 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:54,840 Fantastic podcast. 61 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:55,840 Yeah. 62 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,720 So what got us talking about this more is there was a time when I saw an article in 63 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,920 Psychology Today, and I shared it with you, and we had a really good conversation. 64 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,440 And it was exploring dialectical behavior therapy. 65 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,560 This approach was created by Marsha Linehan, and she is a psychology researcher. 66 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:19,200 And she, the simplest way, I think, to describe what it is is a synthesis or integration of 67 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,000 opposites. 68 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,920 That's the really big takeaway that we had a lot of fun talking about after reading that 69 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:29,040 article and exploring what it meant to both of us. 70 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,920 And they were bringing it up in the context of behavioral therapy with a therapist. 71 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:40,040 But for us, we just discussed it as a way to improve our, I don't know, what do you 72 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,200 just call that, our understanding and communication of each other? 73 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,440 Like during complex emotional moments? 74 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,160 We both, I think, just really immediately connected with that idea. 75 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:52,160 Oh, yeah. 76 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,840 Because there's so many signals in our culture that tell us that we can't do it. 77 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:56,840 No. 78 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:03,440 Like our culture keeps trying to steer us into being black and white, this or that. 79 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:04,440 Yeah. 80 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:05,440 Which one do you really feel? 81 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,360 One thing at a time. 82 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,440 Society doesn't like gray areas. 83 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:11,440 Yeah. 84 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,800 And I think that we've gone through some of the more formal definitions of dialectic thinking. 85 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:22,680 I mean, I think what we really want to zero in on in this episode is what it's meant to 86 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,040 us and how we use it every day and how we use it in Polly, especially. 87 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:33,720 I mean, the way it's ended up, the way we've ended up thinking about it is that we have 88 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,880 the ability to feel, think, and be more than one seemingly contradictory thing at the same 89 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:39,880 time. 90 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,000 And that's been our big takeaway. 91 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,480 Being able to hold simultaneous truths. 92 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:46,480 Yeah. 93 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:52,800 And I think that connects perfectly into Polly because often what we're doing is Polly is 94 00:03:52,800 --> 00:04:00,360 saying, listen, you could love more than one parent, more than one sibling, more than one 95 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,680 friend. 96 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,320 Why can you only love one romantic partner? 97 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:07,320 Right. 98 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:12,840 Like, you introduce someone to a partner and yeah, this is my partner. 99 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,040 And they're like, wait a minute, I thought you introduced me to a different person last 100 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:17,040 week. 101 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:18,040 And I was like, yeah. 102 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,680 And don't you, aren't you still with that partner? 103 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:21,680 Yes. 104 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:22,680 Yeah. 105 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:23,680 Like how are you? 106 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:24,680 And you love this person? 107 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:25,680 Yes. 108 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:26,680 Right. 109 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:27,680 Right. 110 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:28,680 Right. 111 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,600 And those seem contradictory to in a mono world, but they're not. 112 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:32,600 Yeah. 113 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,600 They do that a lot. 114 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:35,600 Yeah. 115 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:36,600 Yeah. 116 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:37,600 You have to choose. 117 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,000 You have to, only one can be true. 118 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:41,880 There can be only one. 119 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:42,880 Right. 120 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,680 I think there is like enough information and enough material there for a whole episode 121 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:52,280 about why we're so focused on blacks and whites in our, in our culture. 122 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:58,800 Why is it, why does it always have to be rigidly defined areas? 123 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,400 I almost completed the, the hitchhiker's guide quote. 124 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:08,040 We demand originally defined areas of doubt and uncertainty. 125 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,760 That's a good one. 126 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,560 I love your ability to quote things. 127 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:13,560 Yeah. 128 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:14,600 We are so opposites on that. 129 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:19,360 Like I forget everything the moment I read it and you maintain like these beautiful quotes 130 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,360 from things I adore. 131 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,400 And I'm just like, tell me more and tell me another quote. 132 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:31,280 I will quote my favorite movies at you as, as often as it is welcomed. 133 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:33,120 But yeah, that is a great, yeah. 134 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:39,880 So your homework for this episode is to one, go check out Heigl, go check out some dialectic 135 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,480 thinking theory, but also go watch Hicker, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. 136 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:45,680 Watch or read? 137 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,120 Or read, I would read it. 138 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,560 And then, I mean, I still love the movie too. 139 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,040 So in Hitchhiker's Guide, it was a deep thought computer was going to solve the big questions 140 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,520 of life, the universe and everything, like philosophical questions. 141 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,720 And the philosophers got really mad about being put out of a job because it's their 142 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,040 job to think about the meaning of life. 143 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,700 And they busted in like terrorists with demands. 144 00:06:07,700 --> 00:06:11,360 We demand originally to find areas of doubt and uncertainty. 145 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,800 Ah, more context for the quote. 146 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:15,800 Even better. 147 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,600 Yes, there you go. 148 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,560 Before we dive into all the poly examples of dialectic thinking, I mean, just one example 149 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:32,000 from my life that was always funny to me is I was a roller derby player and we always 150 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,520 had this like running gag of like every time like a local newspaper would want to do a 151 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,800 story about one of our players, they would love the headline that said something like 152 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:46,900 mild mannered, you know, for me to be like mild mannered programmer by day, roller derby 153 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:48,140 girl by night. 154 00:06:48,140 --> 00:06:50,200 And it's like, come on. 155 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,680 That was salacious. 156 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,280 They just love that idea that you could. 157 00:06:54,280 --> 00:07:00,120 I mean, it goes back to that diet like, oh, you thought she was just a mild mannered programmer. 158 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:06,520 But did you also know like the idea that like, can you be both or like, oh, wow, someone's 159 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,440 more than one thing at the same time. 160 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,680 We can't fit her in a box. 161 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,440 I guess can't get a read on you. 162 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,360 I don't know how to categorize. 163 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,880 Yeah, I don't know how to act around you. 164 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:19,880 You pop back out. 165 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,240 Am I allowed to be rude in front of you because you're a derby girl? 166 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,640 Like can you handle like the rougher side of things? 167 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:27,640 Yeah. 168 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,280 Like, oh, I thought you were just a nice computer nerd. 169 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,160 I thought you just spoke in zeros and ones. 170 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,520 I didn't know you could punch me so hard. 171 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,120 You don't punch in roller derby. 172 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,400 I know that's a misconception that people have about roller derby that is excessively 173 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:45,640 violent. 174 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,040 And I just played right into that for a joke. 175 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:49,040 You did. 176 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,040 Sorry. 177 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,040 Congratulations. 178 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:58,200 But in relationships, it can often come up like, say you are both feeling really connected 179 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:04,040 and happy and satisfied with the amount of time a partner offers, but at the same time 180 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,040 dissatisfied. 181 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,080 So say, oh, this date was amazing. 182 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,080 I loved it. 183 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,360 I can't wait for the next one. 184 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:12,360 Can it happen right now? 185 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:13,360 Right. 186 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:14,360 Yeah. 187 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:15,360 I just want to spend all my time with you. 188 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:16,360 Yeah. 189 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:21,360 I'm still feeling this way, especially when we have a particularly like heady, high, intense 190 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,960 date that's like, I just want to spend every moment with you. 191 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,400 And I also don't want to spend every moment with you. 192 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:30,400 Right. 193 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:36,080 Because right now, I'm going home because I have all my stuff to do. 194 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,080 Right. 195 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:38,680 But I don't, I want to move in. 196 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:39,680 I don't want to go. 197 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:42,160 I want to move in and I don't want to move in. 198 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,760 And I want, you know. 199 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,640 They both do and don't never want this to end. 200 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:48,640 Yeah. 201 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:54,320 And I think especially if you're in relationships where there's maybe some underlying insecurity 202 00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:01,660 going on or you're struggling to know kind of where you stand in a relationship, those 203 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:04,480 signals can be confusing and challenging. 204 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,080 Like when someone says like, oh, I want to move in together. 205 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,600 It's like, oh yeah, I'm really important to you. 206 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,440 But I also don't want to move in together. 207 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,360 How do I know where I stand? 208 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,360 Yeah. 209 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:16,360 Yeah. 210 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:17,360 What does that mean? 211 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:18,360 How does that translate? 212 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,640 How do I make sense of that in trying to understand how you feel about me? 213 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,760 Does it feel odd to you that on one hand we're saying that dialectic thinking can be really 214 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,720 useful in a polycontext, but then also at the same time, isn't it sort of like that 215 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,400 foot on the gas, foot on the brake, mixed signals thing from avoidant attachment that 216 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,160 can be troubling and problematic? 217 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,520 Yeah, I can see how people might experience it that way. 218 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,760 But I personally have found the opposite to be true. 219 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:47,760 Oh. 220 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,920 Because the sooner you connect with the idea that you can be gray and that your partner 221 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:56,240 can be gray, then it frees you up to appreciate that they do feel both. 222 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:02,680 Like that they both want to spend all the time with you possible and also want to have 223 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:03,680 a life of their own. 224 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:08,320 You can feel both of those things and understand that they mean both of those things. 225 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:09,320 Okay. 226 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,640 It's not like they're saying one thing and then changing their mind and saying a different 227 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,800 thing and then changing their mind again. 228 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:17,800 Right. 229 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,400 Like committing and then taking it back and committing and then taking it back. 230 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,400 And I could see how it would be challenging when you hear each of those things verbalized 231 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:29,400 at different moments that you might feel like you're swinging back and forth between those 232 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,120 states because you're like, well, which one's true? 233 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,120 Which one's true? 234 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,120 Which one's true? 235 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,280 And if you take a step back and you're like, both true, then you can be like, oh, I'm 236 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,720 like, oh, I feel both. 237 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:41,720 Cool. 238 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:51,440 So I think one moment that I had that was sort of a breakthrough moment in my poly journey 239 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:58,240 was because of dialectic thinking or when I realized that I was capable of very intense 240 00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,920 dialectic thinking. 241 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:05,560 And that came when I was going through a breakup with Bird. 242 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:11,440 And it was a I mean, that was a very serious, very intense, very heady relationship that 243 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,280 we had that I was very like deeply into. 244 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:24,720 And then we broke up and you know, the traditional way of handling a breakup is that you have 245 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,360 to wait around a certain amount of time. 246 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,760 There's sort of like this idea that you have to mourn it a certain amount of time before 247 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,360 you move forward. 248 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,360 Oh, yeah. 249 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:38,160 And then you have to honor it or to if you're if you if it really meant something. 250 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:39,240 But I didn't do that. 251 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,440 I was like, you know, I have a pretty socially isolating job. 252 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,280 I wanted to go out and meet people again. 253 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,920 I wanted to make new connections. 254 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,760 So around the same time as that breakup, I met you actually. 255 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,040 And at the same time, I also met another partner at that time as well. 256 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:09,720 And so I was experiencing very, very, very deep, soulful, like loss and grieving that. 257 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,760 And I was falling in love with you at the same time, like very, very intense. 258 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,180 Both of them are very intense emotions. 259 00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:20,160 And I could feel myself experiencing them both. 260 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:26,640 Like neither one like changed the other or made it so I wasn't feeling the other or, 261 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,400 you know, they really had nothing to do with each other. 262 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,600 They were both there in my heart at the same time. 263 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,400 It's like being able to hold parallel and not necessarily contradicting all the time, 264 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:45,640 but like independent conversations at the same time, which I can't do. 265 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:51,920 But yeah, but I can hold those two feelings in my heart. 266 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,640 Is that sort of like compartmentalizing? 267 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,160 I don't know. 268 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:57,160 Do you think it is? 269 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:58,160 Is that our ability? 270 00:12:58,160 --> 00:12:59,160 Because you've basically... 271 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:00,480 I don't think they're... 272 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:01,480 But I don't think... 273 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,200 That implies to me that they're in separate boxes and they don't overlap. 274 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,520 I'm feeling them both at the same time. 275 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,040 I'm not feeling one and then closing that box and then opening the other and feeling 276 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,720 it and then closing it and going over and feeling them both. 277 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,120 There's porous flow between them. 278 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:25,120 Isn't there like a thing for like laugh crying? 279 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,600 Smizing through the tears? 280 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:27,600 I don't know. 281 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,600 I don't know. 282 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,880 There are other examples of doing things like that, I guess. 283 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,440 Yeah, I like that. 284 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,460 I like that a lot. 285 00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:42,480 Another example, while like, yeah, like I think you mentioned this a little bit, like 286 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:49,200 when a partner goes on a date and you're wanting to encourage them, the two different feelings 287 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,080 that you would have to synthesize, seemingly contradictory feelings, are maybe your FOMO 288 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,560 or jealousy about this nice experience your partner is having, but then you also really 289 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:00,560 want them to have that. 290 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,120 Even though it's difficult for you to feel while they're having it. 291 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,440 Yeah, like you're excited for them and you're also really struggling. 292 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,320 Yeah, I think that's super common. 293 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:11,800 People feel this a lot. 294 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,520 Yeah, and I think sometimes I think even feel some guilt around it. 295 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,520 Like they're not allowed to be feeling insecure. 296 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,280 Oh, my God. 297 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:21,520 So much guilt. 298 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,560 So much guilt because they feel bad for feeling bad about it. 299 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,120 I should only be encouraging. 300 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,160 I should only be feeling the happy's compersions. 301 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,160 It is. 302 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:33,640 Yeah, there's that pressure to feel compersion. 303 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,760 They feel like they're bad at poly if they're not feeling compersion. 304 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,960 But what they don't realize is they actually are feeling compersion. 305 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,600 If you are excited at all for your partners to have good things, that's compersion. 306 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,600 Right. 307 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,560 And compersion and jealousy are not mutually exclusive feelings. 308 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,560 No, you can feel them at the same time. 309 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,320 Because, like, they feel like the jealousy cancels out the compersion. 310 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,600 So it's like, oh, I'm jealous. 311 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,320 That means I wasn't feeling excited for them. 312 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:00,720 I think you can do both. 313 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:01,720 Yeah, you absolutely. 314 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,480 I mean, that's what the point of this episode is. 315 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,480 I think it blows apart those things. 316 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,000 And that way, you know, when when if your partner comes home and they're checking in 317 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:15,680 on you, you can be like, yeah, I was I was I was struggling. 318 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,280 And I'm really happy for you. 319 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,360 Yeah, I was struggling hard. 320 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,440 I want you to do it again. 321 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,320 It may not feel like I want you to do it again. 322 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:26,320 Well, sure. 323 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,320 If that's what you want. 324 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,320 Yeah. 325 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,320 I'm never going to hold you back. 326 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:30,320 Yeah. 327 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,800 Never going to give you up. 328 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:39,800 So moving right along before that derails us yet another time. 329 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,640 On like to me, that is like you are on an intellectual level believing what they're 330 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:45,880 doing is right. 331 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,840 Something that they should be able to do. 332 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:53,480 Even though it's hard for you to watch them do it like it's that head in the heart kind 333 00:15:53,480 --> 00:16:00,880 of tug of war and that this thinking about it in a dialectic way helps you synthesize 334 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,960 the two and like they stop tugging on each other and are just standing there holding 335 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:06,960 the rope together. 336 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:07,960 I'm mixing my metaphors. 337 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,040 Or they're braided together. 338 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,280 Or they're both like leaning with equal tension, obviously, so that keeps balance. 339 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:16,280 I don't know. 340 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,200 I mean, there's a you know, I will I will try not to quote Watts too many times. 341 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,640 No, actually, this is the perfect episode to quote Watts during. 342 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,440 He talks a lot about tapestries and woven threads. 343 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,800 And I often think of that when I'm thinking of dialectic thinking or even just like thinking 344 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,560 of who I am as a person. 345 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,840 I know that I'm I'm not one thread. 346 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,440 I'm all these different threads and they all come together to make me and not know single 347 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,440 one of them is like the thread. 348 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,440 Right. 349 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,400 And then someone can tug on the one and be like, look, I figured, you know, I like that 350 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,640 about myself. 351 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,740 I would never be defined by any one thing about me. 352 00:16:55,740 --> 00:16:58,680 And I don't want to be and I wouldn't want someone to assume that they knew me because 353 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:00,520 they knew one part of me. 354 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,680 I just know several threads of you. 355 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,040 I don't know the whole rope. 356 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,040 Yeah. 357 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,560 Or the whole cloth or the whole. 358 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:09,560 Yeah. 359 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:10,560 That's cool. 360 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:11,560 Sure. 361 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,160 So so do you have any examples? 362 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,800 I know I've shared some in my own life. 363 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:21,160 Are there examples where you have explored your own dialectic thinking in a poly situation? 364 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:30,760 I actually do have a specific personal example of some simultaneous drives or desires that 365 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,240 I that would be in conflict. 366 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:39,520 But I am existing happily in this gray area between the two is my desire for both my solo 367 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:48,080 poly lifestyle, my my whole life, the structure for my life of having having my own place 368 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,800 and having my independence, having both of that. 369 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:58,040 And then also the family atmosphere of our polycule and our kitchen table kind of dynamics 370 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,320 that go on with my family. 371 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:11,320 I am equally drawn to and feel peace in both, even though they are very different energies. 372 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:12,320 Yeah. 373 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,800 My it might seem like those would be incompatible being solo poly and being kitchen kitchen 374 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,800 table solo. 375 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,800 Yeah. 376 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:20,800 Exactly. 377 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:21,800 Yeah. 378 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,040 And I it for just me in particular, it works really well. 379 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:33,200 Like I feel very confident and comfortable and secure in in this dynamic. 380 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,360 So this is kind of goofy. 381 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:40,920 But there was a meme recently that is just like, to me, it's like the perfect dialectic 382 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:41,920 thinking. 383 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:42,920 Oh, I do remember. 384 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:43,920 Okay, go, go, go. 385 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,560 So it's like, so it says, is there a name for the feeling when all you want out of life 386 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,960 is to hunker down and eat pizza and watch movies, but you also want to break new ground 387 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,960 in your profession, but you also want to quit society and live in the woods, but you also 388 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,560 want to go explore the world forever. 389 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,600 And I'm like, yes. 390 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:00,600 Yes. 391 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,760 That feeling is called me. 392 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,760 Uh huh. 393 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:04,760 Yeah. 394 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:05,760 I want both those things. 395 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:06,760 All of the above. 396 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:07,760 Do you want this or that? 397 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:08,760 Yes. 398 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:09,760 Yes. 399 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,960 Oh, we do that so often. 400 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,600 Do you want to do this or do you want to do that? 401 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,600 Yes. 402 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,440 So that's dialectic thinking, or at least how we think about dialectic thinking. 403 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,520 Yeah, and I think how it can help, uh, Polly help with some common situations that come 404 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,120 up in Polly. 405 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:37,120 So if you're new to dialectic thinking, I hope that this episode helped you maybe explore 406 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:42,320 the times when you've had more than one feeling at the same time and didn't feel like you 407 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,680 were allowed to have them both. 408 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:51,640 And maybe next time you, uh, uh, give yourself the opportunity to be both, to synthesize 409 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,360 give yourself compassion and permission. 410 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:55,360 Yeah. 411 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:57,560 I think that's the whole point. 412 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:03,960 Like this, this idea that we've stolen from philosophy and applied to relationships only 413 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,680 exists to help you. 414 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:06,680 Yeah. 415 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,440 Use, use it if it does. 416 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:09,960 If it doesn't, that's fine. 417 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,600 It's not something that you have failed for not feeling. 418 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:14,600 Yeah, indeed. 419 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:15,600 It's a tool. 420 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:16,600 Thanks for joining us. 421 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:17,600 Yeah. 422 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:18,600 Thanks for coming. 423 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:19,600 See you next time. 424 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,600 I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, 425 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:21,800 I, I, see you next time. 426 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:22,800 Bye. 427 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:31,800 How I deal with relationship stuff and exist in the 428 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,880 gray. 429 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,860 Also get used to being in the grey. 430 00:20:39,860 --> 00:20:40,720 Getting all comfy. 431 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,520 Getting comfy in the gray. 432 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,960 I was conf! 433 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,220 In the grey! 434 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:51,220 I'm sorry. 435 00:20:51,220 --> 00:20:52,580 There was a Native American druggy named a