Hey.
Hi.
Welcome.
Hi.
Hello.
Good to see you.
Good to see you too.
Welcome back to Mindful Poly.
Yeah.
This is our new episode.
Well, this will be the first episode in our philosophy series.
I love philosophy.
I know.
You've been excited about this one.
I have been.
Today we're going to talk about dialectic thinking.
Yeah.
Do you know what that means?
Why don't you tell me?
I do.
I have a lot of fun.
I'm excited.
I do.
I have my definition out of how I understand it.
Yeah.
But I know it comes from deeper, more technical things that we're just going to give a brief
mention of and then jump into how we apply it to relationships.
Yeah.
I think there's official versions of it and then there's a version that we-
Have appropriated from philosophy.
In our everyday conversations.
So the history of dialectic thinking begins with a philosopher named Hegel.
He has a much longer name than I'm not going to try to pronounce because I think I'll just
butcher it.
So it comprises of three dialectical stages of development.
So you start with a thesis, which gives rise to a reaction, which contradicts or negates
the thesis and the tension between the two being resolved by means of a synthesis.
So that was a very technical definition.
But what that means is just that you've got one view, you've got the opposite view, and
how do you bring them together and synthesize them into one thing, basically.
That's the takeaway I at least have of it.
There might be other ways of understanding it.
Sure.
Yeah.
And this isn't a philosophy podcast per se, so we're not experts and we're not here to
literally teach you philosophy.
Could highly recommend Philosophize This if you'd like to go.
Oh, please go listen to Philosophize This.
It's amazing.
Fantastic podcast.
Yeah.
So what got us talking about this more is there was a time when I saw an article in
Psychology Today, and I shared it with you, and we had a really good conversation.
And it was exploring dialectical behavior therapy.
This approach was created by Marsha Linehan, and she is a psychology researcher.
And she, the simplest way, I think, to describe what it is is a synthesis or integration of
opposites.
That's the really big takeaway that we had a lot of fun talking about after reading that
article and exploring what it meant to both of us.
And they were bringing it up in the context of behavioral therapy with a therapist.
But for us, we just discussed it as a way to improve our, I don't know, what do you
just call that, our understanding and communication of each other?
Like during complex emotional moments?
We both, I think, just really immediately connected with that idea.
Oh, yeah.
Because there's so many signals in our culture that tell us that we can't do it.
No.
Like our culture keeps trying to steer us into being black and white, this or that.
Yeah.
Which one do you really feel?
One thing at a time.
Society doesn't like gray areas.
Yeah.
And I think that we've gone through some of the more formal definitions of dialectic thinking.
I mean, I think what we really want to zero in on in this episode is what it's meant to
us and how we use it every day and how we use it in Polly, especially.
I mean, the way it's ended up, the way we've ended up thinking about it is that we have
the ability to feel, think, and be more than one seemingly contradictory thing at the same
time.
And that's been our big takeaway.
Being able to hold simultaneous truths.
Yeah.
And I think that connects perfectly into Polly because often what we're doing is Polly is
saying, listen, you could love more than one parent, more than one sibling, more than one
friend.
Why can you only love one romantic partner?
Right.
Like, you introduce someone to a partner and yeah, this is my partner.
And they're like, wait a minute, I thought you introduced me to a different person last
week.
And I was like, yeah.
And don't you, aren't you still with that partner?
Yes.
Yeah.
Like how are you?
And you love this person?
Yes.
Right.
And those seem contradictory to in a mono world, but they're not.
Yeah.
They do that a lot.
Yeah.
You have to choose.
You have to, only one can be true.
There can be only one.
Right.
I think there is like enough information and enough material there for a whole episode
about why we're so focused on blacks and whites in our, in our culture.
Why is it, why does it always have to be rigidly defined areas?
I almost completed the, the hitchhiker's guide quote.
We demand originally defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
That's a good one.
I love your ability to quote things.
Yeah.
We are so opposites on that.
Like I forget everything the moment I read it and you maintain like these beautiful quotes
from things I adore.
And I'm just like, tell me more and tell me another quote.
I will quote my favorite movies at you as, as often as it is welcomed.
But yeah, that is a great, yeah.
So your homework for this episode is to one, go check out Heigl, go check out some dialectic
thinking theory, but also go watch Hicker, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Watch or read?
Or read, I would read it.
And then, I mean, I still love the movie too.
So in Hitchhiker's Guide, it was a deep thought computer was going to solve the big questions
of life, the universe and everything, like philosophical questions.
And the philosophers got really mad about being put out of a job because it's their
job to think about the meaning of life.
And they busted in like terrorists with demands.
We demand originally to find areas of doubt and uncertainty.
Ah, more context for the quote.
Even better.
Yes, there you go.
Before we dive into all the poly examples of dialectic thinking, I mean, just one example
from my life that was always funny to me is I was a roller derby player and we always
had this like running gag of like every time like a local newspaper would want to do a
story about one of our players, they would love the headline that said something like
mild mannered, you know, for me to be like mild mannered programmer by day, roller derby
girl by night.
And it's like, come on.
That was salacious.
They just love that idea that you could.
I mean, it goes back to that diet like, oh, you thought she was just a mild mannered programmer.
But did you also know like the idea that like, can you be both or like, oh, wow, someone's
more than one thing at the same time.
We can't fit her in a box.
I guess can't get a read on you.
I don't know how to categorize.
Yeah, I don't know how to act around you.
You pop back out.
Am I allowed to be rude in front of you because you're a derby girl?
Like can you handle like the rougher side of things?
Yeah.
Like, oh, I thought you were just a nice computer nerd.
I thought you just spoke in zeros and ones.
I didn't know you could punch me so hard.
You don't punch in roller derby.
I know that's a misconception that people have about roller derby that is excessively
violent.
And I just played right into that for a joke.
You did.
Sorry.
Congratulations.
But in relationships, it can often come up like, say you are both feeling really connected
and happy and satisfied with the amount of time a partner offers, but at the same time
dissatisfied.
So say, oh, this date was amazing.
I loved it.
I can't wait for the next one.
Can it happen right now?
Right.
Yeah.
I just want to spend all my time with you.
Yeah.
I'm still feeling this way, especially when we have a particularly like heady, high, intense
date that's like, I just want to spend every moment with you.
And I also don't want to spend every moment with you.
Right.
Because right now, I'm going home because I have all my stuff to do.
Right.
But I don't, I want to move in.
I don't want to go.
I want to move in and I don't want to move in.
And I want, you know.
They both do and don't never want this to end.
Yeah.
And I think especially if you're in relationships where there's maybe some underlying insecurity
going on or you're struggling to know kind of where you stand in a relationship, those
signals can be confusing and challenging.
Like when someone says like, oh, I want to move in together.
It's like, oh yeah, I'm really important to you.
But I also don't want to move in together.
How do I know where I stand?
Yeah.
What does that mean?
How does that translate?
How do I make sense of that in trying to understand how you feel about me?
Does it feel odd to you that on one hand we're saying that dialectic thinking can be really
useful in a polycontext, but then also at the same time, isn't it sort of like that
foot on the gas, foot on the brake, mixed signals thing from avoidant attachment that
can be troubling and problematic?
Yeah, I can see how people might experience it that way.
But I personally have found the opposite to be true.
Oh.
Because the sooner you connect with the idea that you can be gray and that your partner
can be gray, then it frees you up to appreciate that they do feel both.
Like that they both want to spend all the time with you possible and also want to have
a life of their own.
You can feel both of those things and understand that they mean both of those things.
Okay.
It's not like they're saying one thing and then changing their mind and saying a different
thing and then changing their mind again.
Right.
Like committing and then taking it back and committing and then taking it back.
And I could see how it would be challenging when you hear each of those things verbalized
at different moments that you might feel like you're swinging back and forth between those
states because you're like, well, which one's true?
Which one's true?
And if you take a step back and you're like, both true, then you can be like, oh, I'm
like, oh, I feel both.
Cool.
So I think one moment that I had that was sort of a breakthrough moment in my poly journey
was because of dialectic thinking or when I realized that I was capable of very intense
dialectic thinking.
And that came when I was going through a breakup with Bird.
And it was a I mean, that was a very serious, very intense, very heady relationship that
we had that I was very like deeply into.
And then we broke up and you know, the traditional way of handling a breakup is that you have
to wait around a certain amount of time.
There's sort of like this idea that you have to mourn it a certain amount of time before
you move forward.
Oh, yeah.
And then you have to honor it or to if you're if you if it really meant something.
But I didn't do that.
I was like, you know, I have a pretty socially isolating job.
I wanted to go out and meet people again.
I wanted to make new connections.
So around the same time as that breakup, I met you actually.
And at the same time, I also met another partner at that time as well.
And so I was experiencing very, very, very deep, soulful, like loss and grieving that.
And I was falling in love with you at the same time, like very, very intense.
Both of them are very intense emotions.
And I could feel myself experiencing them both.
Like neither one like changed the other or made it so I wasn't feeling the other or,
you know, they really had nothing to do with each other.
They were both there in my heart at the same time.
It's like being able to hold parallel and not necessarily contradicting all the time,
but like independent conversations at the same time, which I can't do.
But yeah, but I can hold those two feelings in my heart.
Is that sort of like compartmentalizing?
I don't know.
Do you think it is?
Is that our ability?
Because you've basically...
I don't think they're...
But I don't think...
That implies to me that they're in separate boxes and they don't overlap.
I'm feeling them both at the same time.
I'm not feeling one and then closing that box and then opening the other and feeling
it and then closing it and going over and feeling them both.
There's porous flow between them.
Isn't there like a thing for like laugh crying?
Smizing through the tears?
I don't know.
There are other examples of doing things like that, I guess.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that a lot.
Another example, while like, yeah, like I think you mentioned this a little bit, like
when a partner goes on a date and you're wanting to encourage them, the two different feelings
that you would have to synthesize, seemingly contradictory feelings, are maybe your FOMO
or jealousy about this nice experience your partner is having, but then you also really
want them to have that.
Even though it's difficult for you to feel while they're having it.
Yeah, like you're excited for them and you're also really struggling.
Yeah, I think that's super common.
People feel this a lot.
Yeah, and I think sometimes I think even feel some guilt around it.
Like they're not allowed to be feeling insecure.
Oh, my God.
So much guilt.
So much guilt because they feel bad for feeling bad about it.
I should only be encouraging.
I should only be feeling the happy's compersions.
It is.
Yeah, there's that pressure to feel compersion.
They feel like they're bad at poly if they're not feeling compersion.
But what they don't realize is they actually are feeling compersion.
If you are excited at all for your partners to have good things, that's compersion.
Right.
And compersion and jealousy are not mutually exclusive feelings.
No, you can feel them at the same time.
Because, like, they feel like the jealousy cancels out the compersion.
So it's like, oh, I'm jealous.
That means I wasn't feeling excited for them.
I think you can do both.
Yeah, you absolutely.
I mean, that's what the point of this episode is.
I think it blows apart those things.
And that way, you know, when when if your partner comes home and they're checking in
on you, you can be like, yeah, I was I was I was struggling.
And I'm really happy for you.
Yeah, I was struggling hard.
I want you to do it again.
It may not feel like I want you to do it again.
Well, sure.
If that's what you want.
Yeah.
I'm never going to hold you back.
Yeah.
Never going to give you up.
So moving right along before that derails us yet another time.
On like to me, that is like you are on an intellectual level believing what they're
doing is right.
Something that they should be able to do.
Even though it's hard for you to watch them do it like it's that head in the heart kind
of tug of war and that this thinking about it in a dialectic way helps you synthesize
the two and like they stop tugging on each other and are just standing there holding
the rope together.
I'm mixing my metaphors.
Or they're braided together.
Or they're both like leaning with equal tension, obviously, so that keeps balance.
I don't know.
I mean, there's a you know, I will I will try not to quote Watts too many times.
No, actually, this is the perfect episode to quote Watts during.
He talks a lot about tapestries and woven threads.
And I often think of that when I'm thinking of dialectic thinking or even just like thinking
of who I am as a person.
I know that I'm I'm not one thread.
I'm all these different threads and they all come together to make me and not know single
one of them is like the thread.
Right.
And then someone can tug on the one and be like, look, I figured, you know, I like that
about myself.
I would never be defined by any one thing about me.
And I don't want to be and I wouldn't want someone to assume that they knew me because
they knew one part of me.
I just know several threads of you.
I don't know the whole rope.
Yeah.
Or the whole cloth or the whole.
Yeah.
That's cool.
Sure.
So so do you have any examples?
I know I've shared some in my own life.
Are there examples where you have explored your own dialectic thinking in a poly situation?
I actually do have a specific personal example of some simultaneous drives or desires that
I that would be in conflict.
But I am existing happily in this gray area between the two is my desire for both my solo
poly lifestyle, my my whole life, the structure for my life of having having my own place
and having my independence, having both of that.
And then also the family atmosphere of our polycule and our kitchen table kind of dynamics
that go on with my family.
I am equally drawn to and feel peace in both, even though they are very different energies.
Yeah.
My it might seem like those would be incompatible being solo poly and being kitchen kitchen
table solo.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I it for just me in particular, it works really well.
Like I feel very confident and comfortable and secure in in this dynamic.
So this is kind of goofy.
But there was a meme recently that is just like, to me, it's like the perfect dialectic
thinking.
Oh, I do remember.
Okay, go, go, go.
So it's like, so it says, is there a name for the feeling when all you want out of life
is to hunker down and eat pizza and watch movies, but you also want to break new ground
in your profession, but you also want to quit society and live in the woods, but you also
want to go explore the world forever.
And I'm like, yes.
Yes.
That feeling is called me.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
I want both those things.
All of the above.
Do you want this or that?
Yes.
Oh, we do that so often.
Do you want to do this or do you want to do that?
Yes.
So that's dialectic thinking, or at least how we think about dialectic thinking.
Yeah, and I think how it can help, uh, Polly help with some common situations that come
up in Polly.
So if you're new to dialectic thinking, I hope that this episode helped you maybe explore
the times when you've had more than one feeling at the same time and didn't feel like you
were allowed to have them both.
And maybe next time you, uh, uh, give yourself the opportunity to be both, to synthesize
give yourself compassion and permission.
Yeah.
I think that's the whole point.
Like this, this idea that we've stolen from philosophy and applied to relationships only
exists to help you.
Yeah.
Use, use it if it does.
If it doesn't, that's fine.
It's not something that you have failed for not feeling.
Yeah, indeed.
It's a tool.
Thanks for joining us.
Yeah.
Thanks for coming.
See you next time.
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
I, I, see you next time.
Bye.
How I deal with relationship stuff and exist in the
gray.
Also get used to being in the grey.
Getting all comfy.
Getting comfy in the gray.
I was conf!
In the grey!
I'm sorry.
There was a Native American druggy named a