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Welcome to Mindful Poly.

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Welcome.

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I'm Fox.

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And I'm Nova.

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Today we're going to talk about the Relationship Escalator.

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Yeah.

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This is part of our Milestones series.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because the Relationship Escalator is made up entirely of milestones.

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Yeah.

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Really, it's a good one to start a milestone series off on, isn't it?

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It may have inspired the name of the series.

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It may have inspired the name of the series.

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It may have inspired the name of the series.

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It may have inspired the name of the series.

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No way.

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Ah, I believe so.

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So, where do we start?

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What is the Relationship Escalator?

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Yeah, I think that's where we start.

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So, the Relationship Escalator is sort of an unspoken but well-known set of steps that

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we assume each relationship we get into will go through.

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Sort of as, we tend to think of, without realizing it, we often think of them as markers of the

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validity and importance of the relationship.

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So, that might be going for titles like saying boyfriend-girlfriend or getting engaged or

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getting a home or having a child or…

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Maybe staying overnight for the first time.

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Yeah.

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Going on a trip together.

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Mm-hmm.

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Moving in together.

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These are almost all involved in relationships.

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Yes.

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Because it is the Relationship Escalator, of course.

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But, it's also about first you go to school, get a job, get a career, work, and then retire.

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We have milestones for just life.

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That would be an escalator.

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Yes.

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And I think with all of those, it's not just about the commitment you two are making to

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each other, it's also about all of the validation you get from every possible facet of society

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about the validity of that relationship and how important it is and how seriously you

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are taking it.

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So, a lot of the Relationship Escalator is actually rooted in sociological terms and

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those being norms.

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It's a societal norm, the expectation that all relationships follow an escalator.

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So, norms are all around us all the time.

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We take them for granted.

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It's very easy, too.

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We just, they are the things that feel default, feel easy.

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And sometimes we don't even know that we're doing them until we've broken one or we see

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someone else breaking one.

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So, this can happen when you maybe come out to someone as being poly or when you and a

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new partner realize you can't take the next step on the escalator.

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You realize, oh, we are breaking this escalator norm that we didn't even know we were following.

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We didn't even know about the existence of the escalator.

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Typical monogamous culture doesn't have a name for it, really.

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We call it, I don't know, there are similar things like the nuclear family, the typical

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American dream of career house, 2.5 kids, white picket fence, that kind of thing.

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Those are portrayed as the goals.

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And how we get there is we're nudged that way, kind of steered that way, reinforced

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that way.

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But it's not like we have a class on that in school.

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We didn't learn that as like, here is the course your life will take.

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Yeah.

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So, in sociology, they have a term for it, which is sanctions.

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And those are sort of the ways that we keep each other in line.

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Sort of these informal little tweaks and nudges we give each other.

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Maybe it's a, you know, like a licking a scant or it could be something as extreme as, you

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know, like some people who come out as poly get their families kind of disappear or don't

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want to be around them or friends don't want to be exposed to that kind of thing.

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So, there are all kinds of ways that we sanction and communicate our disapproval and the fact

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that you haven't fallen in line.

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We have to other them, show them that they've done something wrong.

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You're weird.

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Why are you doing this?

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I am so weird.

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Yeah.

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Did you know you're weird?

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I'm very weird.

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Yeah.

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I like that about you.

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I've done so many weird things over my life.

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Yeah.

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But I got even weirder when I became non-managable.

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Totally.

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At least societally.

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Well, you're by their standards, yes.

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By my standards, it's wonderful.

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One time, me and my previous partner went to I went to my family for Thanksgiving and

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she went to hers for Thanksgiving and everyone freaked out.

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They were like, oh, is there trouble in your relationship?

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What's wrong?

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What's wrong with your marriage?

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Like, why?

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Why isn't he here?

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Why isn't she here?

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Like, the expectation was that, oh, we got sanctioned for that one, like that you do

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everything together.

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Oh, yeah.

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And even though we were like, it was to us, it was like such a hassle to drive around

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between different cities and see everyone on every holiday.

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And we're like, well, this year, I'll do that one, you do this one, and then we'll, you

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know, we'll go to both to one next year or something.

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Like, it just seemed like, oh, my gosh, that would make things so much easier.

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It seems like actually a perfectly normal solution.

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Right.

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But just not in our culture.

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No.

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Oh, my gosh.

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Yeah.

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So that was a norm we broke and got sanctioned for.

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So when we're talking about poly people following the escalator, there are a lot of reasons

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that we, as poly people, default to the escalator, like we've just talked about.

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And it's also just sort of, I think it's sort of like pressing the easy button to relationship

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security.

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One, one example of a step on the escalator is spending more and more time together.

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So if I offer you more and more time, more and more dates, I'm signaling like, you're

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important to me, I care about you.

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It's a it's an easy way to give you that security.

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That's how I know I'm more important to you.

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Yeah.

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Or that things are going well.

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I just I also think that as we hop off the escalator with partners, the steps we're taking

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that are not in that direction, we have to be really careful because I think it's really

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for those signals to be interpreted as like to trigger insecurity and to trigger jealousy.

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Oh my gosh.

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It comes up all the time.

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Yeah.

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So I think it might be helpful to explore some of the positive aspects of jumping off

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the escalator.

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Yes.

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One one thing that I have experienced as a positive is like there was a recent connection

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I met on an online dating app and we had a lot of fun chatting like they were like fun

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and quirky and we shared photos and we brightened each other's days and we talked for like a

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couple months and it kind of faded off and that's OK.

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Like it didn't escalate at all.

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We never even met in person.

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It's like super not escalator and I still really enjoyed having that person in my life.

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I think you know there's still a possibility we might reconnect again in the future and

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I'm OK either way.

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I value the time that we shared and the energy that we offered each other and it doesn't

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have to be more than that to still be meaningful.

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Yeah.

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So the relationship escalator would have wanted you to to keep investing.

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Or that it's not meaningful because it didn't escalate.

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Oh yes.

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Oh my gosh.

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Yes.

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They mean nothing because we never even met.

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Like if I told a mono person oh there's this person that was really special to me for a

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little bit there.

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They're like oh well did you meet.

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Did you go on dates.

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Did you have sex.

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Did you know.

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No.

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So it allows you to have the freedom to appreciate connections I think in a different way if

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you're not on the escalator.

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It's like we didn't check any of the boxes and it doesn't matter.

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Yeah.

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You're writing your own script.

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Yeah.

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So like what are some examples of times when you have stepped off the escalator in your

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relationships your poly relationships.

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Well one that comes to mind is I have a long distance relationship.

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My partner River lives far away in a distant land.

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Distant magical.

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And the fairies.

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Like I keep I don't make this joke often but it does make me think of like my girlfriend

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who lives in Canada like the the song from Avenue Q.

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Oh I never saw that.

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Yeah it's where it's kind of a societal trope where if someone is like trying to fit in

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into society be like oh I have relationships I have they just live far away.

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Oh yeah.

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And then you never they've made up a person.

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That just makes me think of like Brack who has one two eleven imaginary girlfriends.

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Yes.

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And all the imaginary girlfriends are into me buddy.

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Well I've always thought of it like the because you're trying to avoid sanctions you want

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to appear normal.

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Yes.

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You know.

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So it's like oh I have those it's good.

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So my relationship with River he and I have decided that we like.

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So the things that we've chosen are well I don't want to put words in their mouth because

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they may use different words.

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But what I want to do for that relationship is treat it like a partner like an equal partner

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who isn't less important just because they're geographically far away from me.

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So the relationship escalator would want like a long distance relationship to be I don't

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know considered less important like people wouldn't.

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Yeah.

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Because you can't do certain things you know.

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Well certain things you can't do purely by practical reasons.

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I can't see them every week.

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I mean we actually I do.

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Or in person every day.

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Yeah in person every day.

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We do a lot of things a different way like we do video chats and stuff.

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But like.

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Oh god that is kind of in person.

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It's a different kind of in person.

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Yeah.

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But we find other ways to honor that and make those those milestones happen.

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Like we don't exchange gifts in person but we mail them to each other.

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Like that kind of thing.

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Yeah.

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But yeah that was a very non escalator thing.

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It's like I have a long distance relationship and it's just as important to me as my the

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people that live down the street.

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Yeah.

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OK.

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Have you have you guys experienced any bumps like because you can't follow the traditional

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kinds of escalator steps.

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I think there are definitely some tricky things about long distance ones that are they're

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going to be really different for everyone.

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Yeah.

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It's going to be really specific to me what I've had to adjust to and the ways in which

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I adjusted.

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But as far as outside sanctions because of it I'm actually really delighted to report.

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No.

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I once told a friend about my long distance relationship who lives in another state and

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they were like oh that's amazing.

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And then he asked me all these questions and then I was like oh by the way they're visiting

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and they may come like hang out like we're going to.

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I was talking to a bandmate and I said they may come to band practice and they were just

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like oh I can't wait to meet them.

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They sound great.

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And then there's also the fact that my partner's family have been so accepting and open and

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welcome and stuff and I just think these are almost just bragging now at this point.

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I feel like it's super lucky.

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But they've treated me.

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It's always helpful to feel grateful for the things that are worth feeling grateful about.

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Absolutely.

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They've invited me to family events.

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And they know I'll have to fly to get there or drive or something.

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But like I still got invited or treated because I'm important to River that I'm important

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to them.

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Like I'm like oh that's so wonderful.

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So that was the opposite of a sanction.

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They were encouraging us even though we were doing some sort of weird non-monogamous outside

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the relationship escalator.

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Yeah.

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It's almost like extra special to be validated and to be to get hits of security.

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Yes.

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When you aren't following the escalator.

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Yes.

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It makes it feel even more special.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Oh so here's something I wanted to bring up.

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An example of a relationship escalator thing that polyamorous people do a lot is share

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calendars.

253
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Oh my god.

254
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,400
You kind of know it's gotten a little serious when you have access to their calendar.

255
00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:59,540
That's trust.

256
00:12:59,540 --> 00:13:00,540
That's trust.

257
00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:01,540
Yeah.

258
00:13:01,540 --> 00:13:02,540
It's getting serious.

259
00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:03,540
It feels so validating right?

260
00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:04,540
Yeah.

261
00:13:04,540 --> 00:13:05,540
Oh my gosh.

262
00:13:05,540 --> 00:13:06,540
And then it makes planning dates so much easier.

263
00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:07,540
Oh my god.

264
00:13:07,540 --> 00:13:11,320
Like I don't have access to your partner's calendar but I have access to yours and I

265
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,880
can see your events with other people.

266
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:14,880
True.

267
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:15,880
Yeah.

268
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:16,880
Yeah.

269
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,480
And it also I think it can sometimes kind of fuel if you are prone to compersion it

270
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,720
can fuel compersion a little bit to be like oh my partner is doing something really cool

271
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:26,720
today.

272
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:27,720
Like.

273
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:28,720
Yeah.

274
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,720
Can we do.

275
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:30,720
Hey how was that?

276
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:31,720
How did that go?

277
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:32,720
Yeah.

278
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,640
And it can also conversely kind of lead to some insecurities too.

279
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,640
Truth.

280
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:42,680
You get a very clear qualitative not qualitative quantitative view of oh they made so many

281
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:44,160
dates with this other person.

282
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,160
Yes.

283
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:46,160
Yeah.

284
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,160
That's true.

285
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,040
Or you just see how much how many days or weeks it's been since your last date.

286
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,000
Because that's I mean I think that's one thing we haven't talked about with the escalator

287
00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:04,080
is because it is such an important like societal tool to know where you stand in a relationship

288
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:12,240
that if you see your partner offering other partners a chance to get higher on the escalator

289
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:22,760
than you are how do you cope with the feelings that that brings up for you and how can you

290
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,080
find ways to validate and feel secure in relationships.

291
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,080
Oh my gosh.

292
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,120
That is so heavy.

293
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,120
It is hard.

294
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,120
I mean it.

295
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,480
I cannot say personally that I am a pro at this but I am always aspiring to be better.

296
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:41,240
Well I think we touched on this a little bit in our insecurity episode.

297
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,840
Which was the internal versus external forms of validation.

298
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:46,840
Yes.

299
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:54,600
And that isn't a cure all but it does really help and help mitigate the impact of when

300
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,200
your feet when those insecure feelings pops up.

301
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,040
Yeah that's a great because in insecurity we talked about how it might not be about

302
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,040
you.

303
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,760
So yeah I mean there might be a lot of reasons why.

304
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,600
For example if you're if you're looking at a calendar and you're seeing that your partner

305
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,600
is sharing a lot of time with another partner that that isn't about you.

306
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,280
You know like that might be all kinds of other things that are part of that.

307
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,600
That is a relationship that you are not in.

308
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:29,680
But it's just we are so in some ways societally hardwired to interpret it a certain way.

309
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,680
So you and Stevie kind of have a have chosen not to follow the escalator as well.

310
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:35,680
Yes in other ways.

311
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:36,680
Yeah.

312
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,360
Well one I don't have access to Stevie's calendar.

313
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:40,360
Oh.

314
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:41,360
But that is not.

315
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:42,760
Stevie has a key to my house.

316
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:43,760
How's that.

317
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,320
I have a key to Stevie's house.

318
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:53,200
But like you would think I would be maybe triggered or at least like that might be a

319
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,160
signal about something that I don't have access to the calendar.

320
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,920
Or maybe someone might have trouble with that.

321
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:04,800
Like just like well you shared it with this person and this person why not me.

322
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:10,880
And in this instance I just have sorry to disappoint I'm not bothered by it.

323
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,840
That was her choice you know to me to offer that or not.

324
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:21,600
There are other things that we're very what's the word not entangled but escalated in.

325
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,600
Sure.

326
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:29,520
And like we but not so much to the to the same milestone path as my other relationships

327
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,680
like Stevie and I don't use the term partner per se.

328
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,080
We started as metas.

329
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:44,200
And then we our connection grew and we wanted something is like meta plus plus.

330
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,640
We call each other plus.

331
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:46,640
Yeah.

332
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,640
And I really like it when people start forging their own escalator.

333
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:50,640
Yeah.

334
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:51,640
You guys.

335
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:52,640
Defining it their way.

336
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:53,640
Yeah.

337
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,280
More than more than almost any relationship I can currently think of you guys have really

338
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,320
forged.

339
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:05,700
The two of you it feels like you guys have been very intentional about what steps forward

340
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:08,160
are we taking in what I shouldn't even say forward.

341
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,160
What steps are we taking in what ways.

342
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:11,160
See forward is wrong.

343
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,680
I hope you leave that in because that's that's perfect.

344
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,880
That's how we're wired to break this way.

345
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:17,880
Right.

346
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:18,880
Yes.

347
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,480
So what steps what do we want to share.

348
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:22,960
Where do we overlap.

349
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,520
What are we willing to offer each other.

350
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,800
And what exactly what and what are the edges of that.

351
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,120
What things do we not want to offer what things are we not interested in doing right.

352
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:36,360
And how you do that kindly and compassionately and all.

353
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:42,880
And you know it's it's all this like you know trust wrapped up in it and like but then to

354
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,440
the point where every time you don't offer someone something is is that always a bad

355
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:48,840
thing.

356
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,320
So yeah those are just examples about the relationship escalator.

357
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,320
Yeah.

358
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,240
And some interesting stories surrounding it.

359
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:56,440
What do we go from here.

360
00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,480
What's the next step on our escalator of this episode.

361
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:02,760
Oh dear.

362
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:03,760
You went there.

363
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:04,760
You went there.

364
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:05,760
I'm sorry.

365
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,760
I am still remembering this moment a couple days ago when you were like oh my gosh I'm

366
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,760
such a dad.

367
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,240
Oh when it came.

368
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:17,240
Yeah.

369
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,320
Because in our relationship I am a bit more involved in the co-parenting.

370
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:21,320
Yeah.

371
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:22,320
OK.

372
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,680
So thank you for joining us.

373
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,680
Yeah.

374
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:25,680
Thanks for being here.

375
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:26,680
This is really fun.

376
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:27,680
This is really interesting.

377
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,960
I love philosophy sociology and psychology.

378
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:39,800
So anytime we can dive into those a little bit as we're exploring these just lights me

379
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,120
up a bit.

380
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,960
And despite any hiccups in the recording process which you won't know about because we're going

381
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,200
to cut this out.

382
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,200
Yeah.

383
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,280
Only I get to know about those.

384
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:51,280
Yeah.

385
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:52,280
All my human experiences.

386
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,280
Yes.

387
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,120
That my spirit had during this episode.

388
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:57,120
Yeah.

389
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:58,640
This is an important topic.

390
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,080
It is a super important topic.

391
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,080
Yeah.

392
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,240
A lot of feels.

393
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,480
You know what else is an important topic.

394
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:05,680
I want to mention before we go.

395
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:06,680
Oh my gosh.

396
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,120
Is we are having a kind of listener response episode.

397
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,120
Oh yeah.

398
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:13,120
Yeah.

399
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:17,280
So if you hear this episode and you would like your comment or your experience to be

400
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,640
shared pertaining to one of the topics we talked about in a previous episode you can

401
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,720
write in or was it podcast at mindful poly dot com.

402
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:25,720
Yes.

403
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:26,720
Is the email.

404
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:27,720
Absolutely.

405
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:28,720
Yeah.

406
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:29,720
And we will read it.

407
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,800
We'll take the ones we like the most and we'll read it.

408
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:32,800
Yes.

409
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,480
In that it's going to be one of our final episodes of the season.

410
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,840
We have a couple of special episodes playing for the end.

411
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:39,840
And that's one of them.

412
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,280
So we're soliciting viewer response.

413
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,280
Yeah.

414
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,280
All right.

415
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,280
Good.

416
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,280
As the door opens and the footsteps clatter.

417
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,280
And the mom is called.

418
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:49,280
And the mom is called.

419
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:50,280
Hi Sonny.

420
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,280
Okay.

421
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,280
Bye.

422
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,280
Thank you for coming.

423
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:54,280
I don't know.

424
00:19:54,280 --> 00:20:03,160
It was very it was very much similar to if you keep making that face you'll get stuck

425
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,160
that way.

426
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,880
You know like it wasn't that it wasn't that but it was a thing dad say you know.

427
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:08,880
And I was like oh.

428
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,760
It came out of you without you realizing.

429
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,240
It just popped up out of me and I suddenly related to my parents a little bit deeper

430
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:22,240
of a level.