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Hello Nova.

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Hey Fox.

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How are you today?

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Good.

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So happy to be here.

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Yeah, welcome back to Mindful Poly.

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Today we're going to talk about Facticity versus Transcendence.

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Right. Part of our philosophy series.

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Mm-hmm. Philosophical series.

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Which is known to be one of my favorites.

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So this is something that once you brought it up to me and taught me about it, I was like, oh my gosh.

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This is awesome. I see this everywhere. It changes everything.

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Yeah, it's definitely one of those terms that kind of clicks into place.

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Mm-hmm. I'm very excited about it.

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I've been aware of this thing and I just didn't have a word for it.

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Yes, exactly. Oh yeah, that's what I was going to say.

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Like now I know I have better language to describe this occurrence.

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Yeah, this thing I've been aware of. Yes.

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So I first heard about these terms through a podcast called Philosophize This, which you know has come up before on our show.

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Yep, big fans.

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Yes, yes. So definitely check it out if you want to.

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The particular episode, if you want to look it up, it's episode 105 about Sartre and Camus, about part six about the self.

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To set you up for this episode, all you need to understand is our facticity is the collection of facts that are true about us at any given moment.

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And our transcendence is our ability to change or the possibilities we have to change that are at our disposal.

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Right. Our potential for growth, I think of it.

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Yeah, yeah, who we're on our path to becoming versus who we are right in the moment and our actions right now.

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Things we have done and the facts and circumstances around just our existence.

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Another way to explain that would be facticity would be like the things that are true about me today or the decisions I'm making around this moment.

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So, for example, I chose to have chili for dinner or I chose to come record this podcast with you.

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Yay. I like that choice. Yeah, me too.

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And our trend. Hi, Jara. Meow. Hi.

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Whereas your transcendence would be something you're working towards and you have the potential to become like I am working towards having greater emotional awareness or I want to be active and present in my relationships.

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Which those are amazing. Right.

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And there might be factors in that that I'm doing right now, but it's also part of my future.

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Yeah, yeah.

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We do have a guest in our studio today. Miss Jara is around. You might hear her from time to time.

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Yeah, she's going to make her presence known. She's hungry.

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So one of the things I realized after learning about these terms, I think is that a lot of times you're trying to balance them both.

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You want to be aware of another person's facticity and transcendence. You don't want to weigh one or the other too heavily, at least in my opinion, or yourself for that matter.

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And we're going to get into some examples of when you might get too heavily onto the facticity side or too heavy onto the transcendence side.

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Right. Ideally, you're right there in the middle. You're kind of weighing both and seeing someone in both states, understanding both parts of them.

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An example would be if someone is caught cheating and they say, you know what, this isn't me and I am really ashamed of this and I know that I can be better and I'm going to take these specific steps to be a better person in the future.

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Their partner then has to weigh the facticity of the cheating versus the transcendence of who they really say they're on the path to becoming.

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Right. One of the things I noticed when we talked about it a lot is there's a heavy element of trust within that decision of weighing those two.

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I think it would be easier to believe in someone's transcendence if you have a stronger foundation of trust.

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Yes, absolutely. I think that's a really good point.

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So let's take this concept and apply it to polyamorous relationships.

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What? You think so? For this podcast?

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Shocker. I didn't know what I was getting into and I clicked on mindful poly.

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So in the two extremes, like from one extreme to the other, we'll start on the facticity side.

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When things are heavily skewed towards facticity, if you're too focused on it, it can be sort of the death of curiosity.

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Like you've stopped holding the door open for new potential.

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Yeah. You think you've got someone figured out. You're looking at who they are right now and you're like, this is all they'll ever be.

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They are this right now and that's what they are.

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Why should I expect a different outcome?

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Yeah. Kind of almost, I feel like as I'm saying those words out loud, it's like you're setting them in stone.

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You're just like, boom, you're the sculpture now of this is who you are.

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I've seen how you behave. I see the choices you make right now and that's who you are.

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And in some circumstances, you may not be wrong.

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Yeah, true.

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They may be very likely to continue along that path doing similar things.

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Right. You lose sight of the idea that we are changing beings who are always evolving.

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And you've had some experience with this.

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I think the particular person I'm thinking of, a previous partner, we'll call them Trey, was dealing with some heavy issues from their past.

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And I think there were some, you could almost call it PTSD triggers that would kind of make them hyper fixate on like one instance of something that did happen.

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And I would make a mistake and then they would almost be like never able to let that go.

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Like I would feel kind of locked in and unable to seek forgiveness ever.

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It kind of locked down my ability to see my own transcendence.

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Wow. Oh, okay.

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It colored me seeing a future where I even could do better because I wouldn't even, one, I wouldn't even have been given the chance to do better.

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Despite like demonstrable efforts and a lot of positive hecticity in my efforts to make it right and make better choices in the future.

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The way you describe that just now is like really powerful because I think it's one thing when someone else sees you in that way, when they kind of lock you into the facticity of one moment.

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But if that sort of impacts how you perceive yourself, that's like a whole different thing.

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Like that's really powerful.

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Right.

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And one thing that's come up for me, it kind of indirectly is the idea that insecurity can be a challenging part of polyamory.

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And often metamors are insecure about one another or jealous.

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Right. They could even be already looking for all they need is an excuse or a reason to write you off.

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Yeah, right.

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And facticity can kind of be a way to do that if you sort of plug someone into a particular notch and say this is all they are.

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It can kind of make them less threatening, less scary because you're like, oh, I've got them all figured out.

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They're just this.

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Right. You can kind of feel like less scared of the uncertain if you are certain that they are this way.

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Right. Right. It's sort of an easy button to to find a place of more security.

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I know that this has happened before in my meta relationships.

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I've had metas who were insecure or kind of threatened by me.

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And they took just a comment that I made at one point or one part of a conversation and sort of sculpted a whole idea of who I was based on that without, you know, kind of letting any further data about me come in.

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And and so it was like easy, easier for them to sort of write me off or not invest in me or in getting to know me fully because they just had decided that they knew me based on those one or two interactions or one or two things that I had said that they decided they didn't like.

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Sure.

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It just makes it simpler.

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In all honesty, I had a little moment of this just for funsies. I had a little moment of this early on when I met Elliot. I was trying really hard not to crush on him.

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And I took one little thing that he had said, and I was like, see, he's he's this kind of person, you know, so I know that won't work. I can't be attracted to him at all.

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That lasted all of the like, you know, a day or two.

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Thanks.

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We focused a lot on looking at the facticity of someone else. But I also think getting too focused on your own facticity can be challenging.

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Yeah, it can almost be like when you're too focused on your own negative aspects of your facticity. It can undermine your attempts at being a better person at turning your life around and doing reaching your own goals.

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Yeah, like I am this now so I'll never be anything else. Right. So why even try to be anything different.

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Maybe it's just I want to be better at talking to new people. Yeah. But if I just fully believe that I'm just not someone who can do that. Right. I will prove myself right.

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True. Absolutely.

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So we've kind of talked about like the facticity side of the teeter totter weighing us down. And I want to talk a little bit too about what it might be like if we focus too much on someone else's transcendence.

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It is a very two sided coin. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you tip it too far other way, I think you can end up into trouble. Yeah, just as much. Yeah.

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And so the way that this can present sometimes is maybe you are already in kind of a shaky situation. Sure. There's red flags abound.

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And you are you're picking up on some incompatibility. Yeah. Yeah. But this person is saying some good things like they really are laying down that that plan for future betterment.

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Things are going to be different. Right. I'm going to do better. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then sometimes that might lead you to staying in a situation that ultimately really wasn't working. Right. And there were very good reasons for it to end.

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And there's something to be said for like giving someone a chance. But if that's just sort of the ongoing state, you might be too focused on the transcendence of what you hope things will become instead of the facticity of where they are now.

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Continually hoping, continually being disappointed. Yeah. And and I think it's really hard to recognize. It's super tricky because that line is different for everybody. Absolutely. How many chances is too many chances?

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Or you know, and I think this would be an example, the extreme end of someone tipping too far into the transcendent side would be an example of like an abusive relationship. Yeah. Often there's, you know, the facticity of, you know, physical or emotional abuse that's occurring alongside

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placating efforts to say, you know, I'm going to do better. I'm going to be different next time. I'm going to change this. But the facticity is that there's abuse happening and that's not a healthy place to be in. Right.

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So, wow. How do we know when a second chance is warranted? Some things are like, yeah, pretty, pretty cut and dry. Yeah. But often not.

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Wish it was clearer more often. Yeah, true. So let's bring it back from the extremes. Right. More towards a center balance. The balance.

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Which is like, all of life is a balance, right? We're always trying to find balances between all kinds of, you know, polar opposites in life. Yeah. And whether or not we actually achieve it, I think it's still okay to seek it.

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We should. It's part of our transcendence to be seeking balance in all things. Or just well-being and good times.

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I think this is one that I'm always challenging myself on, is my finding this balance between facticity and transcendence.

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So what I've found in my experience around seeking that middle road, my particular struggle is more towards feeling too overburdened by my facticity.

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By your own? Yeah, by my own. So my particular neuro spicy flavor is ADHD, which I've been struggling with ever since elementary school.

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And through various periods of my life, it's been stronger or less disruptive. You know, it comes and goes. Yeah.

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And I'll be going along just long enough to feel secure and happy, like I've really got everything figured out.

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And one of the things I struggle a lot with is memory. I'll make plans and then try to follow through on them.

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And most of the time I'm successful. Absolutely. Yeah. But unpredictably, it is so what throws me is how unpredictable it is.

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I'll have a complete blank and a drop out. And then I drop the ball on something and something that was really important and that I believed in and cared a lot about.

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And I wanted to do genuinely. Yeah. And it's it almost to me feels like I was blindsided by a truck. And sometimes I can get into my own head and start to believe that, man, I'm just bad at this.

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Right. You're getting then you start to lean into that idea that that's who you are. Yeah. This person that makes those kinds of mistakes.

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Mm hmm. I've struggled with that off and on. And when I get too wrapped up in what I think my my facticity is, it can make it hard for me to even believe I can do better.

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I have to kind of go that extra mile. And then this is where my I think it is balanced out in my life by a very strong desire to transcend.

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I'm very self-improvement motivated. Yeah. So I will put extra things in place that will they're not crutches or band aids.

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They are actual like a lever to move me forward. And mistakes will still happen. But I'm not doing nothing about it.

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Right. I think this is an area of one of our strong compatibility points as partners. You know, we've discovered it in many different ways.

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But, you know, I have a history, I think, of believing maybe almost too strongly in someone's transcendence.

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One of my I don't know, the things that I have some baggage about is relationships where I have partners that do make a lot of promises or commitments to say, like, I'm going to do this differently.

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I'm going to I hear you. I'm going to change this. I'm going to do that. And I believe in that. And I believe in it over and over again.

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It can really hurt over time to keep believing in that and having that not the facticity, not backing that up.

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And one thing that I've found with you is like times when we've had those facticity stumbles together and you talk about how you plan to transcend and then you do follow through on it.

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And that's very powerful for me. Yeah. Like I can definitely vouch for the fact that the follow through is so important.

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Yeah. Because then it's not just a promise. Right. You've already seen it change.

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One other thing that I think is interesting is an overlap with one of our other topics from the series. I love callbacks.

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Yeah. So we have an episode about breakups. And I think where transcendence and facticity and breakups can intersect is that you can recognize we talked a little bit about, you know, recognizing when there is an incompatibility.

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We brought it up in the moment of like talking a little bit, focusing too much on the transcendence of a relationship and not recognizing the facticity of an incompatibility that's happening right here right now. Yeah.

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So when you are going through a breakup where you have recognized, hey, we have an incompatibility going on here and this relationship isn't good for either of us right now.

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When you lean into the idea of transcendence, you know, it's potential that no breakup is really ever final forever. Right. Right.

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If you're open to the idea that you are changing and will keep changing and they are changing and will keep changing and the circumstances that you had your relationship in are changing and will keep changing.

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There's always a possibility in the future that any of those dials might turn to the right place. Yeah. Where you feel like revisiting that connection or that it feels right to see if there's something new there to explore.

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See, that's why I love bringing it back to curiosity. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's being open to future possibilities. Right.

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And so maybe it's okay to check back in every once in a while. What's that person been up to? Who are they now?

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I find a bit of comfort in that during breakups or during, you know, not just romantic breakups, but even platonic breakups or anytime two people are drifting apart, I'm like, okay, so this feels like the right thing for me and for them and for us right now.

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But it doesn't mean it'll always be that way. And that's kind of nice. Yeah.

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So that's facticity and transcendence. I hope that you have as much fun playing with these ideas in your own brain as I do. See the potential. Yeah. Where can it take you?

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Even if they're a little hard to say over and over, as I've learned during the podcast.

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Yeah, those things.

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Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for spending this time with me. Yeah. Thanks for talking about this awesome topic box. I can't wait for the next one. Bye. Bye.

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You're just a little guy. That's what I hear. I'm just a little blanket guy. How's it going? Just a little guy in a blanket. Wow. What's that like? It's real cozy. Really? Yeah, it's comfy. Like how cozy on a scale of cozy to cozy. Oh, it's cozy.

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It's comfy.