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Hello.

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Hi.

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Hey Nova.

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Hey Fox.

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Guess what?

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What?

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This is the non-binary interview episode.

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Yeah.

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This one is so exciting.

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Who do we have with us in the studio today?

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Vic is joining us to share more about their story of the intersection of non-binary and

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polyamory.

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So let's welcome Vick to the podcast.

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Well, my name is Vick, or Vicki.

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I am really fine with people knowing my name.

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And my pronouns are they, them.

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I had top surgery this year, four months ago.

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And that was life changing.

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Yeah.

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It's been like amazing.

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I probably started the process of deconstructing my gender, probably age 30.

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I'm 36 now.

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But I've been queer my whole life, like sexuality-wise.

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I've just always known that like, like I start coming out as like bi when I was 12.

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So that was just, it's always been a part of me as like an identity I knew was there.

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But I think gender always, looking back at my life, gender was always like this thing

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that I kept behind me because it was like, I don't feel right on how I am right now,

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but it's not, I don't want to be like a man.

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Yeah, like you felt like it was maybe a light switch and there weren't any other choices.

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Yeah.

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And so I feel like in the last decade, you know, people have really, you know, Instagram,

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Facebook, social media really does help in reaching more people.

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And it was really nice to follow people that were like, oh, actually, this is how I feel.

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And this is how I see masculinity.

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And you don't have to have this toxic feeling about manhood or masculinity, but also you

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don't have to identify as a man.

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And you know, there's just so many different aspects.

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And I feel like the internet really helped that.

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I think anytime that you're that like the societal norm of whatever identity a gender

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is, right?

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So like male, female, whatever.

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I think when you feel differently about your body and how you express that and how people

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view you through that lens, I think that that's transgender.

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I think it's like, you know, whether it has to do with like, you are very triggered by

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your body parts or whatever, like not everyone is like you can be trans on binary and still

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want to not have top surgery.

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Like that's not, I think people automatically assume that it's about always body dysmorphia

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and then that's a part of it.

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But I think it's different for everyone.

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I think it's just like a big journey.

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It's like an umbrella term.

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It's like being queer.

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I feel like being queer just means that like you're different and like you're not setting

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to the norm, but that can be anything.

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I mean, I like that connection a lot.

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So yeah, I definitely like, I don't get that upset about people misdemeanoring me, but

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it's as time goes on, I think it bothers me more than I want to admit.

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Oh, it's not because I don't identify very much with like growing up as a woman.

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I was, you know, that's just how my life was.

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So I don't like take away that idea from myself.

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But I think it's definitely something I think about when like people are just like shying

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me to death.

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I'm like...

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Yeah, I was actually going to ask you that.

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There's like some, I don't know if it's a dating app or a social media thing where you're

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like, you know, I'm blank and laughing about it or I'm blank and serious about it or whatever

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it is.

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Or if it's like your religion or your something.

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And I was kind of like, I feel like that's a question for anyone on the trans spectrum

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of like your pronouns, like your pronouns are blank and you don't really care or it's

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really important to you or like it's hurtful to hear anything else, you know.

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Right.

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Yeah, there's a whole spectrum.

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How much patience do you have for the world?

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Yeah, or just like, I mean, I definitely have met people who are like, I just don't care.

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You use any of them and it doesn't mean anything to me.

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Those are just, you know, just labels, just words.

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I'm any of them.

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It's fine.

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Like, some people work really hard to have those pronouns, you know?

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Yeah, definitely.

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It's not just a flip of a switch and all of a sudden everyone's respecting you and understanding

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you and you know, being queer and trans takes work and at least give us our pronouns.

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I've just never, I don't know.

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I try not to let language ruin everything.

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It's just what we've been taught.

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I can't say that I'm perfect, you know?

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I meet people and I assume things about their parents.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And you know, that's just how we were brought up.

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Absolutely.

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I'm not like on a higher plane just because I identify as trans.

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I've still been warped and...

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It's so hard to reprogram things.

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But that goes into everything we interact with in the world, you know?

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Every time we meet a new person, there's this programming of trying to put them in a category

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and one of those categories is what gender are they?

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Right.

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And then we start to make a lot of assumptions about who they are based off that gender,

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you know?

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People's experience, which granted, how people see you in the world is how, is the environment

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you grow up in.

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You know, if you've grown up and you're a cis male, cisgender means that you identify

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with your biological body that you were born with.

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You know, if you are that person, you don't even have an aspect of what transgender would

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even be like because you are just living your life the way you were programmed to live it.

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I'm a man.

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I dress like a man.

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Yeah.

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All of this feels right to me.

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Yeah, this is just right.

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Gender is so weird.

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It's like something we've totally made up.

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And you can even, I don't know, kind of dumb it down to fashion.

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It's just like, oh, you wore that sweater, that's more masculine.

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What the hell does that mean?

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What does it mean?

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We just make it up.

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Oh, that's just cut more manly.

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Sure.

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I guess.

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Or even, you know, as I embrace more and more my queerness, I definitely have moments of

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like, you know, oh, this haircut makes me feel like I'm expressing my queerness.

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What does that even mean?

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So you gave kind of a little mini overview, but I'm kind of curious about how you would

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characterize your story when it comes to your relationship with gender and also with Pauly.

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I think they're intertwined in the fact that Pauly gave me a sense of autonomy that I did

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not before that, I feel like I was living this like gay truth, but that was trying to

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fit into heteronormativity, like escalators that like, you know, oh, I'm going to meet

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the person and then they're the love of my life and we're going to get married and we're

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going to have kids and we're going to buy a house and look, we're normal.

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Like we're going to get married because we can do this now.

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Yeah.

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There's this one thing that's different about us, but every other way.

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Yeah.

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Every other way though.

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We're all different, we're all different.

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Yeah.

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And I think for a long time I held onto that.

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I was always Pauly in some way, you know, I was always wanting to be flirtatious or

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whatever, cause Pauly could be whatever you want, whatever boundaries or agreements you

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have.

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But like, I think it gave me permission to actually like see who I was, which included

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my gender that I just didn't want to like talk about or deal with.

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I did.

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So I think it really did come together.

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That's really powerful that opening up to Pauly then kind of like opened up.

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I do feel like I can relate to that part of that is just the idea that like, once you

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start questioning certain things, you just keep questioning other and other things.

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So whether it's, you know, in this case, it might just be monogamy.

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I'm questioning whether that's a thing I need to do in relationships and then I'm going

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to start questioning, you know, everything else in the world.

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I just like always had this, these connections with people.

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And like, again, Pauly doesn't have to be romantic.

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I think that's something I've learned too, is that like my friends and I have, I would

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say they're a part of my Pauly life because I give them just as much energy as I would

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a partner.

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Like I, my friends are my family.

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Like we talk about everything.

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We spend time together every week.

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It's a very like community based thing.

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And I feel like Pauly gives you that.

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Like you get to see that it's more than just like blood relation or someone you're marrying.

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It's like a whole community, which I love.

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Yeah, totally.

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That's been a big part of my evolution with Pauly too is like, and I think even the culture

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of Pauly is starting to get into that more and more is like, it's not just about romantic

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relationships or sexual relationships that like platonic and friendships and other types

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of connections are just as important and are just as much a part of the Pauly label.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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I love it.

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So I think you've, you've, you've shared how Pauly Yamory influenced your relationship

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with gender or identifying as trans.

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Now that you do identify that way, has that changed Pauly for you at all?

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I don't know if it's, well, I think it's kind of hard to date in general, like especially

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nowadays cause it's like all of it's online and I'm just like an in-person human.

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Like I want to meet you.

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I want to like know who you are.

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I don't want to have all this like small talk via text message.

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Like, Oh, what'd you do today?

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It's cold.

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Like it's all stupid.

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I don't want that.

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Yeah, I get that.

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Yeah.

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Like who wants to do that?

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Um, and so I think that's the hardest part, especially like people just look at this like

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snippet of a profile picture and then like, you know, I'm very open.

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So I'm just like, well, I'm trans and Pauly and blah, blah, blah.

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So if you're looking for like a woman, that's not what I am.

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And you know, you get some creeps, you get some weirdos.

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Yeah.

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Um, and, or you just get like people that ask you questions that you're like, that's

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inappropriate.

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Like I, sorry.

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Next time.

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I'll do that.

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Bye.

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Yeah.

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And the fact that people can, uh, if, if you're finding people online, they can use that as

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a way to filter either for you to show up or not show up.

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I, uh, one of my friends that's trans like was exploring what it was like when they put

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themselves as different genders and how many new people showed up.

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I forget what she, um, said it to that, you know, suddenly all these new people showed

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up.

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I'm the same person.

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I have the same photos.

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I have the same info about me.

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And suddenly when I do this little toggle, this little trigger, suddenly I get a totally

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different reaction.

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But I don't know.

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Dating is hard.

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Like I just, yeah.

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Um, and I've also, I, I started taking testosterone about two and a half years ago.

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Um, and that really changed my like sexuality or like just like my attraction.

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Oh yeah.

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So like, you know, like the, who you're attracted to.

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Yeah.

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Like, I mean, I've always been set up queer.

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I've never like identified as a lesbian or anything like that to limiting.

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Um, but I have mainly been with cis women.

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Um, and you know, now I'm, it's just very like, just give me the humans, baby.

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Like I don't care.

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And before it was really like that.

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It took some of those limiters off.

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Like yeah.

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And I, maybe it was also like feeling more comfortable in my body.

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I think that that's like a huge thing, you know, because I had a lot of issues with men

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just because of how I was treated as a woman being viewed by a man.

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But now like, you know, it's different.

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That makes a lot of sense.

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I think that would be, that could be both scary and exciting, you know, like the way

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you've all these things that you've known for so long have changed, which is cool.

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But it's also like, now you've got to relearn everything.

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Yeah.

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And like, I don't know, we're getting old.

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Like, I mean, I'm just saying like every, every year I learn more about like who I am.

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Yeah.

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What's something you feel like people misunderstand about being non-binary?

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I think that people want like a clear definition of things and like the thing with non-binary

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and that transgender in general that like scares people is that the thing is like concrete.

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Like, you know, that's why like people ask about people's body parts and stuff because

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they don't know.

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Like they don't know how to like, there has to be this like concrete definition of what

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makes you you.

264
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And really it's not anybody's business.

265
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Yeah.

266
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We're all way too concerned with other people, but.

267
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And their body parts.

268
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And their body parts for some unknown reason.

269
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But like, I really do think that that's a part of non-binary that people get really

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confused about.

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It's like non-binary people are more masculine.

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Is that like how it's supposed to be?

273
00:13:29,340 --> 00:13:33,300
No, you don't have like, that's not, that's the point is that you're breaking whatever

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barrier that someone put on you and you're just being who you want to be.

275
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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So that's like, I wish people could see like the whole picture and not just like a snippet

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of, oh, that person's a they, them, you know, like, like they don't even like get it.

279
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It's just, yeah, the whole story.

280
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There's a story.

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Everyone has a story.

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Be curious.

283
00:13:57,540 --> 00:13:58,540
Yeah.

284
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Ask questions.

285
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Not about body parts though.

286
00:14:00,540 --> 00:14:01,540
Yeah.

287
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Oh God.

288
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I'm like, this is so cheesy.

289
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Like it is.

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This sounds, this, this sounds kind of cheesy, but it might have a good answer, which is

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what superpower do you feel like being non-binary has given you?

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Oh, um, well one, I get like all the good parts of like every gender really.

293
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Um, that sounds amazing.

294
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Yeah.

295
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Because again, I grew, I think it's a great that I was born a woman.

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Like I got to like experience that.

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Um, and then also I've been able to just like really think about my body and how I've wanted

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it to feel and look, um, which has just been like a really life-changing thing.

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It's crazy what like I spent like every day, multiple times a day thinking about how much

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I hated my body.

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And now it's like not even close to that all because I just reconstructed my chest.

302
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Um, so it's just like, it's like, it's life-saving.

303
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It really is.

304
00:15:03,820 --> 00:15:07,220
You know, like, but yeah, I think my superpower is just like being able to like see through

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different perspectives of gender, deconstruct it and make it my own.

306
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You know, my gender is mine.

307
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Like it's no one else's.

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It doesn't matter what label you put on it.

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Non-binary, whatever.

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Like it's me, it's Vicky, whatever.

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Um, that's my gender.

312
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And I think that's like what I love about it so much.

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And we're back.

314
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:29,360
Yeah.

315
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:30,360
What do you think?

316
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,420
Oh my gosh, Nova, your conversation with Vic gave me all the feels.

317
00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:35,420
Yeah.

318
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I'm feeling so good.

319
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Gosh, that was good.

320
00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:40,420
Totally.

321
00:15:40,420 --> 00:15:43,220
I just want to give a really big shout out to Vic.

322
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Yes.

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Thank them for, um, sharing their story with us and their time and coming down to the studio

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and we just had a blast.

325
00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:51,980
Yeah, it was amazing.

326
00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:53,540
So until next time.

327
00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:54,540
Yeah.

328
00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:55,540
Thanks for joining us.

329
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Thanks for coming.

330
00:15:56,540 --> 00:15:57,540
Bye.

331
00:15:57,540 --> 00:15:59,540
Bye.