1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000 Hi, Nova. 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,000 Hey, Fox. 3 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000 I'm so happy you're here. 4 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,000 Yeah, I'm happy you're here too. 5 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,000 It's new episode time. 6 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,000 Yeah, which one are we doing this time? 7 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,000 This episode is going to be about poly breakups. 8 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,000 Oh, that's part of our milestone series, right? 9 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Mm-hmm. 10 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Cool. 11 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Why is this such an important thing to talk about? 12 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Well, I think obviously breakups are not exclusive to poly. 13 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,000 They're not exclusive to poly. 14 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,000 They're not exclusive to poly. 15 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Well, I think obviously breakups are not exclusive to poly. 16 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Breakups happen in all kinds of relationships, even non-romantic and non-sexual relationships. 17 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,000 Mm-hmm. 18 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:45,000 But I think when you're poly, you might end up having more breakups in your life than 19 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,000 a monogamous person might. 20 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,000 That's true. 21 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:54,000 I often like, when people are talking about this kind of thing on the forum where I'm 22 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,000 on, I usually refer to them as transitions. 23 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,000 Yeah, right. 24 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:03,500 I think that's a good way to bring up the next point about poly breakups, which is that 25 00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:10,560 in a monogamous context, usually a breakup means that everything ends. 26 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,520 There's a point where you are in a relationship, and there's a point where you're not, and 27 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,000 there's nothing in between. 28 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,000 Right. 29 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,240 All on or all off. 30 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,200 Some people try to stay in each other's lives as friends. 31 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:27,600 I think with polyamory, because there's no being in a relationship or some sort of lingering 32 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,040 something with an ex or with someone that you used to have a certain type of relationship 33 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:39,400 with that you've now changed doesn't impact your ability to date other people or continue 34 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,920 other relationships. 35 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,560 I think it creates a situation where you can kind of turn different dials and knobs on 36 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:47,560 a relationship. 37 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,240 It doesn't need to be all on or all off. 38 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:54,680 You can kind of adjust a few things about what you share. 39 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,320 I like to think of it as like a giant soundboard in a recording studio with all those sliders 40 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:00,840 that you can move up or down. 41 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:01,840 Yeah. 42 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,640 We'll just take these two sliders over here and move them down a bit. 43 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,240 Maybe this other aspect that we didn't have the emotional energy for can go up. 44 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,240 You just find a new equilibrium. 45 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,440 This actually reminds me of one of our previous episodes where we talked about the relationship 46 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:17,440 escalator. 47 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:18,920 Oh yeah, definitely. 48 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:27,600 Because in that we talked about how the escalator assumption is you're going to keep gradually 49 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:33,400 increasing in intensity and enmeshment and entanglement with someone. 50 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,280 During a breakup or transition, you might, like we're talking about, want to adjust certain 51 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:44,000 dials or certain sliders, which at first you might think, yeah, we'll just de-escalate 52 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,280 the relationship. 53 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,520 And I've heard people say it that way, right? 54 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:48,520 Right, right. 55 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,400 So you doesn't always have to be in a linear fashion, like only going up the escalator, 56 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,360 only de-escalating back down. 57 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,040 I think it might be more helpful to think about these things as having more than one 58 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,240 dimension or facet involved. 59 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,520 It's not just the escalate and de-escalate. 60 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:05,520 Like not so linear. 61 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:06,520 Yeah, it's not so linear. 62 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,240 The escalator is such a linear path you're on. 63 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:15,200 And if we're already off of the escalator in a poly relationship, then when we go through 64 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,600 a breakup, then we don't need to do it in an escalator fashion either. 65 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:20,600 Exactly. 66 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,920 So just on the basic level, what do you consider a breakup to be? 67 00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:27,480 What do you think of when you think of a breakup? 68 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:35,600 For me, I think it feels most like a breakup when, see, my immediate thought went to a 69 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:42,600 romantic context, but there's been times in my life when I had to say goodbye to a friendship 70 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,200 as well. 71 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:50,720 I'm trying to think about it in terms of that would honor both with equity because it could 72 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,360 be any transition really. 73 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:59,800 Yeah, I think when I think of a breakup, I'm usually thinking of it as the ending of one 74 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:05,680 relationship, platonic or romantic or otherwise. 75 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:12,400 When one form of a relationship ends, it could be the beginning of a new one at that same 76 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:19,680 moment or it could be the end of any kind of connection between the people involved. 77 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,000 Do you think it still counts as a breakup if it's evolving into another form of a relationship 78 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,680 where you're becoming more entangled? 79 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,440 Oh, like, oh, interesting. 80 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:34,720 Okay, that's a good challenge on my definition. 81 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,400 If it's the end of one structure and the beginning of a new one. 82 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,680 Yeah. 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,120 Does it always have to be with negative context? 84 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,720 Yeah, I think that is kind of an interesting perspective on it. 85 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:55,280 You are kind of like ending or breaking up that former idea of what you and that person 86 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:58,080 were sharing and starting something new together. 87 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:03,280 Right, but see, that's why I like transitioning so much. 88 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:05,480 Yeah, instead of calling it a breakup. 89 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,120 Yeah, I mean, you're both on journeys, right? 90 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,640 We have our journeys, we have our paths. 91 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,400 It's wonderful and joyous when our paths join and we can travel along them together side 92 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,160 by side. 93 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,640 But paths are windy and twisty and change happens. 94 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:21,840 Yeah. 95 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:23,480 And I don't think that always has to be a negative thing. 96 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,880 We could diverge for a bit, but still be following kind of parallel. 97 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:28,880 Sure. 98 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,600 You know, we can still see each other in various ways. 99 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:32,600 Right? 100 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:33,600 We're still in contact. 101 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:34,600 Yeah. 102 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,960 And then they might join up again, they might cross paths again in the future. 103 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:44,720 So one thing I do really like about reframing the way we think about breakups and when we 104 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:52,360 start talking about the Morris transitions is that the idea that you can be in many different 105 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,320 relationships with the same person over the course of the time you've been together. 106 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,640 And I really like exploring that in my own mind and sort of imagining each connection 107 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:08,240 I have and what different relationships we've been in over the course of all the time we've 108 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:09,240 known each other. 109 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:10,240 Yeah. 110 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:11,240 They're like different eras. 111 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,240 Yeah. 112 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:13,240 Yeah. 113 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,640 Like I hate to, you know, I work in tech so I hate to be like 1.0, 2.0 or whatever. 114 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,400 That's where my mind goes, not that I really... 115 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:22,780 I like that though. 116 00:06:22,780 --> 00:06:26,880 We actually talked about that in terms of when we were getting to know each other and 117 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,880 sharing our life stories. 118 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,240 We were like, yeah, that was like version 2.0 me and now I'm on like three or four or 119 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:32,240 five at this point. 120 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:33,240 Yeah. 121 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,240 Yeah. 122 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,000 There's like versions of yourself and then there's versions of each connection that you 123 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,000 share. 124 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,760 It gives you the opportunity to offer those earlier versions of yourself some compassion. 125 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:42,760 Yeah. 126 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,800 And earlier versions of your relationship some compassion, you know, like as you were 127 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,280 learning about each other and... 128 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:48,280 Yeah. 129 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:50,880 We were just doing the best we could with what we knew at the time. 130 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:51,880 Right. 131 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,080 One of the things I've noticed is there's a lot of stigma around relationships ending. 132 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,080 Yes. 133 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Oh my gosh. 134 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:00,080 There's this failure you've... 135 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,080 Yeah. 136 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:02,080 If it's not a long relationship. 137 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,960 Or everyone's like, yeah, everyone's like, oh, I'm so sorry. 138 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:06,960 I'm so sorry that happened. 139 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,560 You know, that kind of thing. 140 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,600 Also why does the length of the relationship determine its worth? 141 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:13,600 Right. 142 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:14,600 Yeah. 143 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:15,600 Why have you decided that? 144 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,320 We've got a lot of, you know, I think about the anniversaries and all the different like 145 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,480 gold and silver and whatever, you know, like there is so much like bragging rights that 146 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,280 come with like my relationship has lasted X amount of time. 147 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,520 Time moves differently for different people in different phases of our lives and in one 148 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,360 year for one person might feel like 10 years to another person. 149 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,600 We don't really have a way of comparing our experience of time. 150 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:47,560 So the idea that like a relationship that's gone on for 10 years is somehow better than 151 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,360 a relationship that's lasted one is, I don't know, it's like apples to oranges in my mind. 152 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:54,720 Right. 153 00:07:54,720 --> 00:08:00,520 I think it's just going to help us all in the long run if we ease off that that worth 154 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:01,880 slider just a little bit. 155 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:02,880 Yeah. 156 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:03,880 Kind of decouple those two. 157 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,960 So yeah, the stigma, it just keeps popping up. 158 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:14,520 Like someone hears that your relationship has changed and the immediate go to urge is 159 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,040 to console them. 160 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,040 Yeah. 161 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,280 I find myself feeling that way too, even when I've tried to challenge my own thinking about 162 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:22,280 these things. 163 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:23,280 Right. 164 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,480 I've just kind of just jumped in, like it becomes second nature. 165 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,560 I had something like this come up recently with my own divorce. 166 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:35,440 I was bumping into a coworker in the break room and they asked me how I was doing. 167 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,240 And you know, it's just one of those moments where you can make small talk and say, Oh, 168 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:39,240 I'm doing fine. 169 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,560 Or you can, I don't know, be a little vulnerable. 170 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:42,560 Be a little more honest. 171 00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:44,480 I'm not doing really great. 172 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:50,200 I've been going through this divorce with my partner and I'm really feeling it today. 173 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:55,720 And the thing that this coworker did that I really appreciated was before jumping right 174 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:01,480 to the consolation, he took a moment and he asked me, Oh, is this an I'm sorry moment 175 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,440 or a congratulations moment for you? 176 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,680 And I was like, Oh, wow. 177 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:08,680 I like that. 178 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:13,680 He wanted to know because like not every relationship moment. 179 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:14,680 Yeah. 180 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:16,480 Like it could be good. 181 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,260 Like it could be good for both people involved. 182 00:09:18,260 --> 00:09:24,320 It's a really good thing that they're both, you know, seeking a new, a new balance. 183 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,760 And if that means the relationship has to end, then that's the best thing to do. 184 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,920 And both people will be happier and better for it. 185 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:31,920 Right. 186 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,440 So I love that his instinct now is to just ask first. 187 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:35,440 Right, right. 188 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:36,440 I really like that. 189 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:37,880 I'd like to try to do that more. 190 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:42,600 And then he just made me feel like cared for in a way of that, like, I'm glad you're taking 191 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:43,600 care of yourself. 192 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:44,600 Yeah. 193 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,600 Right. 194 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:52,960 Because it's so easy, you know, we can kind of take on the emotions that other people 195 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,600 are assuming we should have sometimes, you know, depending on how good our boundaries 196 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:03,600 are and how right empathetic we are versus if they are offering, which one are you, you 197 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,400 can stop and decide. 198 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:06,400 Yeah. 199 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,080 What, what am I really feeling? 200 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,080 Yeah. 201 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,320 So why do we avoid breakups? 202 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,920 That's a great question. 203 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,240 I think there's a lot of focus in our culture on keeping things the same. 204 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:19,240 Yeah. 205 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,720 We're scared of change. 206 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,040 Yeah, we get really comfortable. 207 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,960 Like the familiar, the things we know, the things we like the way they are. 208 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:27,960 Right. 209 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,640 If it's going well, we just want this forever. 210 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:30,640 Right. 211 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:31,640 Let's just keep doing this thing. 212 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:38,120 Or even if it's not going great, there's still things about it that are so comforting and 213 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:43,120 so familiar that we're like, but I still kind of, I don't, I don't know what else is out 214 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,880 there and I, I, I want to just stick with this thing. 215 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:46,880 I do know. 216 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:47,880 Right. 217 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:48,880 Fear of the unknown. 218 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:49,880 Yeah. 219 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:50,880 Yeah. 220 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:51,880 There's fear. 221 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:52,880 It's kind of a, like a baked in insecurity in that. 222 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:53,880 Yeah. 223 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:54,880 Yeah. 224 00:10:54,880 --> 00:11:00,840 I think one of those stigmas that we all kind of feel that pressure of is society has this 225 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,880 way of treating single people as like there's something wrong with them. 226 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:05,880 Oh gosh. 227 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:06,880 Yes. 228 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:07,880 Yes. 229 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,280 Like, uh, you're, your relatives constantly bugging you. 230 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,280 When are you going to, when are you going to partner up? 231 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,280 Yeah. 232 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,280 When are we going to get grandchildren? 233 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:16,280 Yeah. 234 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,360 Like there's this pressure to couple up and stay coupled. 235 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,360 Right. 236 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:20,360 Right. 237 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:21,880 So couple up, but stay coupled. 238 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:22,880 Right. 239 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:23,880 Stay. 240 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,880 If you uncouple, when are you getting back? 241 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:26,880 Yeah. 242 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:27,880 Right. 243 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:33,000 Because I think that's where that, um, that pressure has a way of influencing how we, 244 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,680 how much self-worth we invest in that relationship. 245 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:39,520 And that could kind of lead to that relationship maybe going on longer than it was healthy 246 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:40,520 to do so. 247 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:41,520 Yeah. 248 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:42,520 Absolutely. 249 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,600 We're resistant to that change because we don't want that stigma. 250 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,080 We don't want to feel like a failure. 251 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:47,760 I was just sharing this with you earlier. 252 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:53,160 I remember, um, forms and I can't recall which forms I feel like it's just like health forms 253 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,960 or legal forms that you fill out as you go through life. 254 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,640 And um, it was always like the choices were single, married or divorced. 255 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:02,920 And I was like, wait a second. 256 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,880 So if I'm divorced, I'm just divorced forever. 257 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,720 I'm always checking the divorce box. 258 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,520 I'm now defined by this thing that was like part of my history. 259 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,160 I can never just be single again. 260 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:20,280 Or it almost feels like a subtle sort of, um, nudge towards getting married again, you 261 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,520 know, like to check that married box. 262 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,960 Being happily married is the natural state of being. 263 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:25,960 Right. 264 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:26,960 Sure. 265 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,760 We're going to, you know, psychologically nudge you in that direction. 266 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,880 Like what you were saying earlier about relationships going through different versions. 267 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:35,880 Right. 268 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:41,640 So this, what we're doing right now is actually, yeah. 269 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:42,640 That thing we're doing. 270 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:43,640 Yeah. 271 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,680 You know, uh, this is like version three. 272 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:46,680 Yeah. 273 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:48,960 But yeah, but that means we've gone through several transitions. 274 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:49,960 Yes. 275 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,200 They're the kind of transitions that are worth mentioning in an episode like this. 276 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,080 Yeah, absolutely. 277 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:01,160 So let's rewind to the point right before it became version three of our relationship. 278 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:02,520 You got a rewind sound for us. 279 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,520 It's a good, all right. 280 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:07,520 Yeah. 281 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:08,520 Yeah. 282 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:15,080 So we were on a trip and that was a moment where we had a big conversation. 283 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,080 Definitely. 284 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,920 A very big one. 285 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,000 Things you realized were not sustainable. 286 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,000 Yeah. 287 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,360 Well, I mean, an important note would be that that was our three year anniversary trip. 288 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,960 Well, that's why we were on a trip. 289 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:33,560 You could bury the lead a little bit. 290 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:34,560 Yeah. 291 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:36,240 Bum, bum, bum. 292 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:37,240 It's okay though. 293 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,880 Like, uh, you agreed to go on that trip. 294 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,640 We had that trip planned for a long time. 295 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:42,640 Right. 296 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,760 And these were things that you actually didn't even realize until we were, I mean, we were 297 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:46,760 already there. 298 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:47,760 Right. 299 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:48,760 Like that I was feeling. 300 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:54,800 I mean, if there had been some escalation moments that built towards that moment in 301 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,480 that place in that time. 302 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:03,160 But I think the largest point or the largest realization that occurred during that trip 303 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:11,040 was just that, um, something about three years felt like a transition moment for me when 304 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,760 it came to what I understood this thing to be that we were sharing. 305 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:21,440 And I mean, we just talked about how we've like the, the number of years doesn't mean 306 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,480 anything or, you know, like that it's not important or does it not, not a good measure, 307 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,240 but it definitely something shifted in me at that point. 308 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:31,240 Yeah. 309 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,600 I don't, I think it's okay for us to use that time marker as that catalyst. 310 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:37,600 Yeah. 311 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:38,600 Like, I just don't. 312 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:39,600 That's what it was for me. 313 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:40,600 That's what it felt like. 314 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,760 That's what I experienced at that moment was that something had changed for me. 315 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:45,760 Right. 316 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,880 And it was just the thing that helps you realize that. 317 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:48,880 Yeah. 318 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:49,880 I know. 319 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:55,160 I just don't want, uh, the longevity of a relationship to then equal like assumed milestones 320 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:56,160 have to happen. 321 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,480 That's the thing that we were, you know, cautioning against. 322 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,800 There probably could be some things I could unpack for myself about why, uh, my needs 323 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:10,320 changed at three years, you know, but, but yeah, there were things that had been okay 324 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:17,080 with me, um, about what we shared and what you could offer and that had felt that I was 325 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,440 comfortable with and I was happy with. 326 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,920 And there was a turning point for me where I realized that those, those things that had 327 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,840 felt okay until then didn't feel okay anymore. 328 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,080 They didn't feel right. 329 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:36,360 I initiated the breakup, um, for my own wellbeing, um, and honoring where I was at. 330 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:43,440 I wasn't trying to control you or ask you to change anything, um, and you, that had 331 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,560 to do with your environment or the things you were offering. 332 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:52,400 I was just saying, Hey, the way things are right now don't work for me. 333 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,960 And that was really challenging for me as well, because I, I, um, I tried to make it 334 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,280 really clear throughout that time that I wasn't asking you to do something different or to 335 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,600 change anything about your circumstances. 336 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,920 Because then if I just ran off and did those things, that might not even have fixed it. 337 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:08,920 Right. 338 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,560 You're not trying to change my life. 339 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:11,560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 340 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,480 It could be hard to recognize those moments. 341 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,480 Yeah. 342 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:16,480 It's important when you do. 343 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,360 It was a bit of a shock to me. 344 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,960 There's sort of a big moment when it comes to like a breakup and you have to kind of 345 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,440 evaluate like, you know, that fear of change. 346 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,720 Do I see myself being happier if I make this change than I am now? 347 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,760 And um, I think that that weekend, that moment, that trip was where it finally clicked into 348 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:45,040 place for me that I would be happier if I made this change than I was with things continuing 349 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:46,200 on the way they were. 350 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:47,200 Wow. 351 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:53,440 What I want to point out is just how much courage it must have taken for you to say 352 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,440 something. 353 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,160 It was so hard. 354 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,000 We've already rented this place to get away for the weekend. 355 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,000 Yeah. 356 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,000 We're already there. 357 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,000 We've unpacked. 358 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Oh, gosh. 359 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:09,520 When you have that realization, do you like, I'm really glad that you said something. 360 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:10,520 Yeah, that's true. 361 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,400 I see what you're saying versus like going about the weekend. 362 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,000 Bury it for the weekend and kind of grin and bear it and get through it and then talk 363 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,000 to me. 364 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,000 I'm just not that kind of person. 365 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,000 No, I just can't really. 366 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000 Um, I don't know. 367 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:26,360 I've never been very good at, um, keeping my emotions a secret. 368 00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:27,360 So right. 369 00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:29,600 I would have noticed something was off. 370 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,320 Yeah. 371 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:32,320 So we talked about it. 372 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:33,320 Yeah, we did. 373 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:34,320 We got through it. 374 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:35,320 We've done it before. 375 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,320 True. 376 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:37,320 Right. 377 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,000 As we said, this isn't the first time our relationship has evolved. 378 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,000 Right. 379 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Yes. 380 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,600 Do you feel like I heard you very well on that trip? 381 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:45,600 Oh, absolutely. 382 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:46,600 Yeah. 383 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,120 I mean, you, we were both devastated, but you understood. 384 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:52,120 There was lots of crying. 385 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:53,120 Oh yeah. 386 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:54,120 Very much. 387 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:55,120 Even though we weren't saying goodbye forever. 388 00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:56,120 Yeah. 389 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:57,120 Right. 390 00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:58,120 It'd still be heavy. 391 00:17:58,120 --> 00:17:59,120 Yeah. 392 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,960 And it's okay to then mourn that phase of the relationship. 393 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:02,960 Absolutely. 394 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:04,280 Which I think we did a lot that night. 395 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:05,280 Yeah, absolutely. 396 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,760 Oh, and more than that night, but yeah. 397 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,280 And then the rest of that weekend, you still have like another day in that place. 398 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,280 Yeah. 399 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,080 Well, no, I mean like more than just that trip. 400 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,080 Sure. 401 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Right. 402 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,360 Because as it turns out, when we got home, I didn't just immediately feel fine about 403 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:21,360 it. 404 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:22,360 Right. 405 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:23,360 What? 406 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:30,080 I thought this was going to have a happy ending. 407 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:36,840 Well, we are making a podcast together. 408 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,520 So then time passed and we adjusted to this new version. 409 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,320 Three hours later. 410 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:43,320 I mean. 411 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,080 Or a month later. 412 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,080 Things happened. 413 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,120 One month later. 414 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:52,560 And I was in a different place. 415 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:53,560 Yeah. 416 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,160 There were several catalysts, catalyzes. 417 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,800 That's a great word. 418 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:07,680 Yeah, catalysts that kickstarted major change in my life. 419 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:08,680 Yeah. 420 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,280 You were one of several. 421 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,280 One data point. 422 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:12,280 Right. 423 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:13,280 I was one of several. 424 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,280 One data point on many. 425 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,840 But I was definitely in a frame of mind of thinking about how I want to have my relationships 426 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:18,840 in the future. 427 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:19,840 Yeah. 428 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:20,840 You know, what. 429 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,880 And how you want to structure your life. 430 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:23,880 Exactly. 431 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:24,880 Yeah. 432 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,400 You know, so big changes happened. 433 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,000 Yeah, they did. 434 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,100 And I ended up in a place, a much different place than I was in before. 435 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:40,400 We went from the Charmelian version of relationship into the Charizard version of the relationship. 436 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,680 I have no idea if that is a good analogy. 437 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,160 Pokemon fans will understand. 438 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,200 I know. 439 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,840 Maybe one of them will tell me. 440 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:55,380 If I could boil this down into one takeaway, for me, it would be that relationships breaking 441 00:19:55,380 --> 00:20:00,120 up and transitioning don't have to be a negative thing. 442 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:01,120 Yeah. 443 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:08,040 Like, not something to be feared or, I don't know, even avoided sometimes. 444 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:09,040 Right. 445 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:18,240 But I think people resist, they avoid, they endure so many red flags and so such heartache 446 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,920 holding on to something that has run its course. 447 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:22,920 Yeah. 448 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,360 It has met a natural transition point. 449 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,400 Yeah. 450 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:34,760 And I don't think we value enough our personal well-being. 451 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,760 Like doing the right thing that's right for you. 452 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:37,760 Right. 453 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,000 And I think it's selfish. 454 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,920 Focus on yourself to the degree where you have to make big changes like that and sacrifice 455 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,920 being in a couple if you're just trying to protect yourself. 456 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,560 You're just trying to rebalance and correct something. 457 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,020 Or pursue your own happiness. 458 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:58,400 Or yeah, or just like the path your journey is taking is going in that direction. 459 00:20:58,400 --> 00:20:59,400 Yeah. 460 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,080 You know? 461 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,680 I just want to approach transitions like that with a lot more compassion and understanding. 462 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:06,680 Yeah. 463 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,680 Yeah. 464 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,320 And then they'll be a little bit less scary. 465 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,540 I definitely experience them that way. 466 00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:18,480 It's not that they, there's still a lot of emotion there, but it's not, it's not scary. 467 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,640 It's just part of being in a relationship. 468 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,200 It can still be intense. 469 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,200 Yeah. 470 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,080 Change is a dramatic thing. 471 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,080 Yeah. 472 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,560 But you can't hide from it. 473 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:29,560 Yeah. 474 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,600 It's just kind of impossible to avoid it. 475 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,600 Yeah. 476 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,000 So, Nova, I just wanted to take just a quick second to say thank you for sharing something 477 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,000 so vulnerable with me today. 478 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Yeah. 479 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,400 Thanks for sharing it with me too. 480 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:50,800 I know it's, it's a, yeah, this was a kind of a heavy thing for us to offer. 481 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:51,800 Yeah. 482 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,000 But like, if we do want it to have less stigma, I think it's important to be able to talk 483 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,000 about these things. 484 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,000 Absolutely. 485 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,000 Yeah. 486 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,000 It feels good to share that story. 487 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,000 Okay. 488 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,720 Great. 489 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:14,780 And then I, man, the, the comedy writer in me wants to insert the Pokemon, like your 490 00:22:14,780 --> 00:22:15,780 Pokemon is evolving. 491 00:22:15,780 --> 00:22:18,780 Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. 492 00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:26,000 And then you have the little Pokeball that's shaking and then bloop, we get a new Pokemon. 493 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,480 Is that our relationship or is that you? 494 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:29,480 Both. 495 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,640 But definitely the relationship is evolving is what I was referring to. 496 00:22:33,640 --> 00:23:00,640 Yeah.