Hi, Nova.
Hey, Fox.
I'm so happy you're here.
Yeah, I'm happy you're here too.
It's new episode time.
Yeah, which one are we doing this time?
This episode is going to be about poly breakups.
Oh, that's part of our milestone series, right?
Mm-hmm.
Cool.
Why is this such an important thing to talk about?
Well, I think obviously breakups are not exclusive to poly.
They're not exclusive to poly.
Well, I think obviously breakups are not exclusive to poly.
Breakups happen in all kinds of relationships, even non-romantic and non-sexual relationships.
Mm-hmm.
But I think when you're poly, you might end up having more breakups in your life than
a monogamous person might.
That's true.
I often like, when people are talking about this kind of thing on the forum where I'm
on, I usually refer to them as transitions.
Yeah, right.
I think that's a good way to bring up the next point about poly breakups, which is that
in a monogamous context, usually a breakup means that everything ends.
There's a point where you are in a relationship, and there's a point where you're not, and
there's nothing in between.
Right.
All on or all off.
Some people try to stay in each other's lives as friends.
I think with polyamory, because there's no being in a relationship or some sort of lingering
something with an ex or with someone that you used to have a certain type of relationship
with that you've now changed doesn't impact your ability to date other people or continue
other relationships.
I think it creates a situation where you can kind of turn different dials and knobs on
a relationship.
It doesn't need to be all on or all off.
You can kind of adjust a few things about what you share.
I like to think of it as like a giant soundboard in a recording studio with all those sliders
that you can move up or down.
Yeah.
We'll just take these two sliders over here and move them down a bit.
Maybe this other aspect that we didn't have the emotional energy for can go up.
You just find a new equilibrium.
This actually reminds me of one of our previous episodes where we talked about the relationship
escalator.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Because in that we talked about how the escalator assumption is you're going to keep gradually
increasing in intensity and enmeshment and entanglement with someone.
During a breakup or transition, you might, like we're talking about, want to adjust certain
dials or certain sliders, which at first you might think, yeah, we'll just de-escalate
the relationship.
And I've heard people say it that way, right?
Right, right.
So you doesn't always have to be in a linear fashion, like only going up the escalator,
only de-escalating back down.
I think it might be more helpful to think about these things as having more than one
dimension or facet involved.
It's not just the escalate and de-escalate.
Like not so linear.
Yeah, it's not so linear.
The escalator is such a linear path you're on.
And if we're already off of the escalator in a poly relationship, then when we go through
a breakup, then we don't need to do it in an escalator fashion either.
Exactly.
So just on the basic level, what do you consider a breakup to be?
What do you think of when you think of a breakup?
For me, I think it feels most like a breakup when, see, my immediate thought went to a
romantic context, but there's been times in my life when I had to say goodbye to a friendship
as well.
I'm trying to think about it in terms of that would honor both with equity because it could
be any transition really.
Yeah, I think when I think of a breakup, I'm usually thinking of it as the ending of one
relationship, platonic or romantic or otherwise.
When one form of a relationship ends, it could be the beginning of a new one at that same
moment or it could be the end of any kind of connection between the people involved.
Do you think it still counts as a breakup if it's evolving into another form of a relationship
where you're becoming more entangled?
Oh, like, oh, interesting.
Okay, that's a good challenge on my definition.
If it's the end of one structure and the beginning of a new one.
Yeah.
Does it always have to be with negative context?
Yeah, I think that is kind of an interesting perspective on it.
You are kind of like ending or breaking up that former idea of what you and that person
were sharing and starting something new together.
Right, but see, that's why I like transitioning so much.
Yeah, instead of calling it a breakup.
Yeah, I mean, you're both on journeys, right?
We have our journeys, we have our paths.
It's wonderful and joyous when our paths join and we can travel along them together side
by side.
But paths are windy and twisty and change happens.
Yeah.
And I don't think that always has to be a negative thing.
We could diverge for a bit, but still be following kind of parallel.
Sure.
You know, we can still see each other in various ways.
Right?
We're still in contact.
Yeah.
And then they might join up again, they might cross paths again in the future.
So one thing I do really like about reframing the way we think about breakups and when we
start talking about the Morris transitions is that the idea that you can be in many different
relationships with the same person over the course of the time you've been together.
And I really like exploring that in my own mind and sort of imagining each connection
I have and what different relationships we've been in over the course of all the time we've
known each other.
Yeah.
They're like different eras.
Yeah.
Like I hate to, you know, I work in tech so I hate to be like 1.0, 2.0 or whatever.
That's where my mind goes, not that I really...
I like that though.
We actually talked about that in terms of when we were getting to know each other and
sharing our life stories.
We were like, yeah, that was like version 2.0 me and now I'm on like three or four or
five at this point.
Yeah.
There's like versions of yourself and then there's versions of each connection that you
share.
It gives you the opportunity to offer those earlier versions of yourself some compassion.
Yeah.
And earlier versions of your relationship some compassion, you know, like as you were
learning about each other and...
Yeah.
We were just doing the best we could with what we knew at the time.
Right.
One of the things I've noticed is there's a lot of stigma around relationships ending.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
There's this failure you've...
Yeah.
If it's not a long relationship.
Or everyone's like, yeah, everyone's like, oh, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry that happened.
You know, that kind of thing.
Also why does the length of the relationship determine its worth?
Right.
Yeah.
Why have you decided that?
We've got a lot of, you know, I think about the anniversaries and all the different like
gold and silver and whatever, you know, like there is so much like bragging rights that
come with like my relationship has lasted X amount of time.
Time moves differently for different people in different phases of our lives and in one
year for one person might feel like 10 years to another person.
We don't really have a way of comparing our experience of time.
So the idea that like a relationship that's gone on for 10 years is somehow better than
a relationship that's lasted one is, I don't know, it's like apples to oranges in my mind.
Right.
I think it's just going to help us all in the long run if we ease off that that worth
slider just a little bit.
Yeah.
Kind of decouple those two.
So yeah, the stigma, it just keeps popping up.
Like someone hears that your relationship has changed and the immediate go to urge is
to console them.
Yeah.
I find myself feeling that way too, even when I've tried to challenge my own thinking about
these things.
Right.
I've just kind of just jumped in, like it becomes second nature.
I had something like this come up recently with my own divorce.
I was bumping into a coworker in the break room and they asked me how I was doing.
And you know, it's just one of those moments where you can make small talk and say, Oh,
I'm doing fine.
Or you can, I don't know, be a little vulnerable.
Be a little more honest.
I'm not doing really great.
I've been going through this divorce with my partner and I'm really feeling it today.
And the thing that this coworker did that I really appreciated was before jumping right
to the consolation, he took a moment and he asked me, Oh, is this an I'm sorry moment
or a congratulations moment for you?
And I was like, Oh, wow.
I like that.
He wanted to know because like not every relationship moment.
Yeah.
Like it could be good.
Like it could be good for both people involved.
It's a really good thing that they're both, you know, seeking a new, a new balance.
And if that means the relationship has to end, then that's the best thing to do.
And both people will be happier and better for it.
Right.
So I love that his instinct now is to just ask first.
Right, right.
I really like that.
I'd like to try to do that more.
And then he just made me feel like cared for in a way of that, like, I'm glad you're taking
care of yourself.
Yeah.
Right.
Because it's so easy, you know, we can kind of take on the emotions that other people
are assuming we should have sometimes, you know, depending on how good our boundaries
are and how right empathetic we are versus if they are offering, which one are you, you
can stop and decide.
Yeah.
What, what am I really feeling?
Yeah.
So why do we avoid breakups?
That's a great question.
I think there's a lot of focus in our culture on keeping things the same.
Yeah.
We're scared of change.
Yeah, we get really comfortable.
Like the familiar, the things we know, the things we like the way they are.
Right.
If it's going well, we just want this forever.
Right.
Let's just keep doing this thing.
Or even if it's not going great, there's still things about it that are so comforting and
so familiar that we're like, but I still kind of, I don't, I don't know what else is out
there and I, I, I want to just stick with this thing.
I do know.
Right.
Fear of the unknown.
Yeah.
There's fear.
It's kind of a, like a baked in insecurity in that.
Yeah.
I think one of those stigmas that we all kind of feel that pressure of is society has this
way of treating single people as like there's something wrong with them.
Oh gosh.
Yes.
Like, uh, you're, your relatives constantly bugging you.
When are you going to, when are you going to partner up?
Yeah.
When are we going to get grandchildren?
Yeah.
Like there's this pressure to couple up and stay coupled.
Right.
So couple up, but stay coupled.
Right.
Stay.
If you uncouple, when are you getting back?
Yeah.
Right.
Because I think that's where that, um, that pressure has a way of influencing how we,
how much self-worth we invest in that relationship.
And that could kind of lead to that relationship maybe going on longer than it was healthy
to do so.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
We're resistant to that change because we don't want that stigma.
We don't want to feel like a failure.
I was just sharing this with you earlier.
I remember, um, forms and I can't recall which forms I feel like it's just like health forms
or legal forms that you fill out as you go through life.
And um, it was always like the choices were single, married or divorced.
And I was like, wait a second.
So if I'm divorced, I'm just divorced forever.
I'm always checking the divorce box.
I'm now defined by this thing that was like part of my history.
I can never just be single again.
Or it almost feels like a subtle sort of, um, nudge towards getting married again, you
know, like to check that married box.
Being happily married is the natural state of being.
Right.
Sure.
We're going to, you know, psychologically nudge you in that direction.
Like what you were saying earlier about relationships going through different versions.
Right.
So this, what we're doing right now is actually, yeah.
That thing we're doing.
Yeah.
You know, uh, this is like version three.
Yeah.
But yeah, but that means we've gone through several transitions.
Yes.
They're the kind of transitions that are worth mentioning in an episode like this.
Yeah, absolutely.
So let's rewind to the point right before it became version three of our relationship.
You got a rewind sound for us.
It's a good, all right.
Yeah.
So we were on a trip and that was a moment where we had a big conversation.
Definitely.
A very big one.
Things you realized were not sustainable.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, an important note would be that that was our three year anniversary trip.
Well, that's why we were on a trip.
You could bury the lead a little bit.
Yeah.
Bum, bum, bum.
It's okay though.
Like, uh, you agreed to go on that trip.
We had that trip planned for a long time.
Right.
And these were things that you actually didn't even realize until we were, I mean, we were
already there.
Right.
Like that I was feeling.
I mean, if there had been some escalation moments that built towards that moment in
that place in that time.
But I think the largest point or the largest realization that occurred during that trip
was just that, um, something about three years felt like a transition moment for me when
it came to what I understood this thing to be that we were sharing.
And I mean, we just talked about how we've like the, the number of years doesn't mean
anything or, you know, like that it's not important or does it not, not a good measure,
but it definitely something shifted in me at that point.
Yeah.
I don't, I think it's okay for us to use that time marker as that catalyst.
Yeah.
Like, I just don't.
That's what it was for me.
That's what it felt like.
That's what I experienced at that moment was that something had changed for me.
Right.
And it was just the thing that helps you realize that.
Yeah.
I know.
I just don't want, uh, the longevity of a relationship to then equal like assumed milestones
have to happen.
That's the thing that we were, you know, cautioning against.
There probably could be some things I could unpack for myself about why, uh, my needs
changed at three years, you know, but, but yeah, there were things that had been okay
with me, um, about what we shared and what you could offer and that had felt that I was
comfortable with and I was happy with.
And there was a turning point for me where I realized that those, those things that had
felt okay until then didn't feel okay anymore.
They didn't feel right.
I initiated the breakup, um, for my own wellbeing, um, and honoring where I was at.
I wasn't trying to control you or ask you to change anything, um, and you, that had
to do with your environment or the things you were offering.
I was just saying, Hey, the way things are right now don't work for me.
And that was really challenging for me as well, because I, I, um, I tried to make it
really clear throughout that time that I wasn't asking you to do something different or to
change anything about your circumstances.
Because then if I just ran off and did those things, that might not even have fixed it.
Right.
You're not trying to change my life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It could be hard to recognize those moments.
Yeah.
It's important when you do.
It was a bit of a shock to me.
There's sort of a big moment when it comes to like a breakup and you have to kind of
evaluate like, you know, that fear of change.
Do I see myself being happier if I make this change than I am now?
And um, I think that that weekend, that moment, that trip was where it finally clicked into
place for me that I would be happier if I made this change than I was with things continuing
on the way they were.
Wow.
What I want to point out is just how much courage it must have taken for you to say
something.
It was so hard.
We've already rented this place to get away for the weekend.
Yeah.
We're already there.
We've unpacked.
Oh, gosh.
When you have that realization, do you like, I'm really glad that you said something.
Yeah, that's true.
I see what you're saying versus like going about the weekend.
Bury it for the weekend and kind of grin and bear it and get through it and then talk
to me.
I'm just not that kind of person.
No, I just can't really.
Um, I don't know.
I've never been very good at, um, keeping my emotions a secret.
So right.
I would have noticed something was off.
Yeah.
So we talked about it.
Yeah, we did.
We got through it.
We've done it before.
True.
Right.
As we said, this isn't the first time our relationship has evolved.
Right.
Yes.
Do you feel like I heard you very well on that trip?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, you, we were both devastated, but you understood.
There was lots of crying.
Oh yeah.
Very much.
Even though we weren't saying goodbye forever.
Yeah.
Right.
It'd still be heavy.
Yeah.
And it's okay to then mourn that phase of the relationship.
Absolutely.
Which I think we did a lot that night.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, and more than that night, but yeah.
And then the rest of that weekend, you still have like another day in that place.
Yeah.
Well, no, I mean like more than just that trip.
Sure.
Right.
Because as it turns out, when we got home, I didn't just immediately feel fine about
it.
Right.
What?
I thought this was going to have a happy ending.
Well, we are making a podcast together.
So then time passed and we adjusted to this new version.
Three hours later.
I mean.
Or a month later.
Things happened.
One month later.
And I was in a different place.
Yeah.
There were several catalysts, catalyzes.
That's a great word.
Yeah, catalysts that kickstarted major change in my life.
Yeah.
You were one of several.
One data point.
Right.
I was one of several.
One data point on many.
But I was definitely in a frame of mind of thinking about how I want to have my relationships
in the future.
Yeah.
You know, what.
And how you want to structure your life.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You know, so big changes happened.
Yeah, they did.
And I ended up in a place, a much different place than I was in before.
We went from the Charmelian version of relationship into the Charizard version of the relationship.
I have no idea if that is a good analogy.
Pokemon fans will understand.
I know.
Maybe one of them will tell me.
If I could boil this down into one takeaway, for me, it would be that relationships breaking
up and transitioning don't have to be a negative thing.
Yeah.
Like, not something to be feared or, I don't know, even avoided sometimes.
Right.
But I think people resist, they avoid, they endure so many red flags and so such heartache
holding on to something that has run its course.
Yeah.
It has met a natural transition point.
Yeah.
And I don't think we value enough our personal well-being.
Like doing the right thing that's right for you.
Right.
And I think it's selfish.
Focus on yourself to the degree where you have to make big changes like that and sacrifice
being in a couple if you're just trying to protect yourself.
You're just trying to rebalance and correct something.
Or pursue your own happiness.
Or yeah, or just like the path your journey is taking is going in that direction.
Yeah.
You know?
I just want to approach transitions like that with a lot more compassion and understanding.
Yeah.
And then they'll be a little bit less scary.
I definitely experience them that way.
It's not that they, there's still a lot of emotion there, but it's not, it's not scary.
It's just part of being in a relationship.
It can still be intense.
Yeah.
Change is a dramatic thing.
Yeah.
But you can't hide from it.
Yeah.
It's just kind of impossible to avoid it.
Yeah.
So, Nova, I just wanted to take just a quick second to say thank you for sharing something
so vulnerable with me today.
Yeah.
Thanks for sharing it with me too.
I know it's, it's a, yeah, this was a kind of a heavy thing for us to offer.
Yeah.
But like, if we do want it to have less stigma, I think it's important to be able to talk
about these things.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It feels good to share that story.
Okay.
Great.
And then I, man, the, the comedy writer in me wants to insert the Pokemon, like your
Pokemon is evolving.
Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.
And then you have the little Pokeball that's shaking and then bloop, we get a new Pokemon.
Is that our relationship or is that you?
Both.
But definitely the relationship is evolving is what I was referring to.
Yeah.