1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,680 Hi! Hello! Welcome back to Mindful Poly. This is going to be a fun, different episode because 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,800 you may notice that Nova's voice sounds a little different this time. Very different. 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,160 Actually, it's not Nova at all. This is Elliot. Is he going to be our co-host for today, Elliot? 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,760 Hello, I'm Elliot. I'm partnered with Nova. Sure. Yeah. We invited you just because we 5 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,240 thought it would be fun, and this was the topic you were most interested in talking about. 6 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:39,800 Yeah, for sure. So, relationship anarchy, which we'll quickly define as a style of inter-reliance 7 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:45,840 built on choice rather than social expectations and externally imposed obligations. What I take 8 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:52,600 from that is it's about being intentional and specifically choosing each element of your 9 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:58,200 relationships that you want to have. Yeah, relationship anarchy is like when you start 10 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,800 to dig into it, you realize it is a lot of work, and it's probably work we should have 11 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:09,240 been doing in our relationships all along. Yeah, right? It's a lot of removing assumption. 12 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,740 Yeah, because you've talked about them, and you've negotiated a relationship with each 13 00:01:14,740 --> 00:01:20,040 individual that you're in a relationship with, and guess what? You're in a relationship with 14 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,820 literally everyone you know. Oh my gosh. This will be a great spot. Do you have that quote 15 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:31,120 from the book? So, I think we should name the book. It's called Relationship Anarchy, 16 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:40,160 Occupy Intimacy by Juan Carlos Perez Cortez, and he says, when we don't position some relationships 17 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:46,200 as higher than others in terms of status, we don't need to allow ourselves to have several 18 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:53,880 relationships. We already do. And so, what he's saying is, you know, I think that came 19 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,200 from a specific part of the book where he was kind of critiquing polyamory as an answer 20 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:04,440 and a response to monogamy, which was, oh, I get to have multiple relationships. And, 21 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,840 you know, the author saying, guess what? You already are in multiple relationships. You're 22 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,080 in a relationship with your mom and your dad and your brother and your sister and your 23 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,640 siblings and all of your friends and all of your workers, coworkers, you know, all of 24 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:23,120 it. Everyone in your life. Yeah. By definition, almost you can't have hierarchy because you're 25 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,800 in each new relationship when you're having your negotiation or discussion about the kind 26 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:33,840 of arrangement you want. It's brand new from scratch with that person, right? It's as if 27 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,840 there aren't other ones that also exist. I think that's, and I think that is the wrong 28 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,980 interpretation of what relationship anarchy is. That's the interpretation that I kind 29 00:02:43,980 --> 00:02:47,860 of went into it with initially. It was like, well, I can make this relationship whatever 30 00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:54,880 I want, but guess what? I have a child who has a mother who I live with, both of those 31 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:00,320 people and I have obligations to them. So even though I want to say I'm not hierarchical, 32 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:06,800 that does not mean that, you know, one relationship is immediately equal to a new one. So like 33 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:12,660 the relationship I have that is 10 years in the making is absolutely more impactful to 34 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:16,920 my life and more meaningful than the person I just met that I think is cute, right? And 35 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:24,560 so I have to, the complex, the complexity of it comes in where it's like, if it's, if 36 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,360 you've never met anyone in your life and you meet someone, you can negotiate whatever kind 37 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,800 of relationship you want with them. But once you start making those connections and once 38 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:38,840 you start having obligations and commitments to those individuals, and I don't think relationship 39 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,800 anarchy says you shouldn't have obligations and commitments to the people you love, right? 40 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,280 Once you have that, they become part of the equation of any new negotiation by definition. 41 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,840 Now they may not be directly involved, but you can't just sweep them away and be like, 42 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,800 well, I'm super in love with this person now, so I'm going to move to Las Vegas. You know? 43 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:06,160 Well, I mean, you could. You could, right? Yes. The people in your life may or may not 44 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,360 feel very good about that. Exactly. I honestly don't think you can have a hierarchy without 45 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,920 some kind of privileged structure that really relationship anarchy would seek to dismantle. 46 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:21,600 So while I think that you can have labels and I think labels can be useful, I think 47 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:27,380 relationship anarchy would say hierarchies are never a good thing because they necessarily 48 00:04:27,380 --> 00:04:30,920 mean there's a power structure there that we're seeking to eliminate. 49 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:37,960 Wow. Yeah. I like the way you put that. Well, in that case, do you think that the word priorities 50 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:43,800 might be a little bit more helpful of a term when you're trying to describe the, like you 51 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:52,560 said, like you have a child with a partner. So that child and that partner, your kind 52 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:58,160 of enmeshment with that partner to take care of that child is a priority for you. And like, 53 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,040 so that doesn't necessarily mean that you've imposed a hierarchy with that partner on all 54 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,860 your other partners. Right. Right. But that we can for sure have 55 00:05:07,860 --> 00:05:12,720 priorities because that's just how you organize where you put your effort. 56 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,860 That's part of that discussion too, because again, some of these things can, can sneak 57 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:23,360 in the baggage and the preconceptions. They sneak in if you're not careful because we 58 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:30,200 are steeped in our culture. Like, like we're a cup of water and a bag of tea has been dropped 59 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:37,760 into us. Right. And we've that, that bag of tea is sat there our entire life, just turning 60 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:46,960 us into tea. Right. If we're all born water, we, we end up tea and relationship anarchy 61 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,200 is saying you don't have to stay that kind of tea, right? You can do a different kind 62 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:56,360 of tea or you could be coffee or whatever it is. Um, but if you're not careful, that 63 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:02,000 tea flavor, that taste is going to remain no matter what you do, it's always going to 64 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:07,320 be there because you're just steeped in it. And so when you're talking about priorities, 65 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:13,680 other people, I suspect might just hijack that and call that hierarchy. And so you still 66 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,280 have to have a conversation around it, but I think you're right. I think priorities are 67 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:22,880 the right way to look at it. Again, it just has to be talked about. 68 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:28,160 Sure. Like just because I started using a different word doesn't now mean I'm no longer 69 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:34,000 imposing hierarchy. Yeah. Yeah. We can go around saying that we're non-hierarchical, 70 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:40,520 but we have to be non-hierarchical and practice, not just stating it. Right. And so you have 71 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:47,360 to like, what are the power imbalances if you and I have been married for 20 years and 72 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:53,040 we open our relationship with every intent to be non-hierarchical and I meet someone 73 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,600 and that person picks up on this thing that no one's talking about that. And that thing 74 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:06,000 being you and I and our 20 year shared history clearly have this shared history and you clearly 75 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,240 exert power on my relationship with this other person and no one's talking about it. Like 76 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:17,640 a physical body having gravity. Yeah, sure. And though we can't really control 77 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:27,400 gravity yet, we can control the ways that our power imbalances impact other people around 78 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:33,120 us even just by calling them out and recognizing them. Sure. Acknowledging them. 79 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:39,160 Not always, but sometimes it's enough. Yeah. Name the beast. Yeah. Like point out the elephant 80 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,760 in the room. Well, maybe that third person is actually 81 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,600 okay with that and we've made assumptions that they're not or that they're being negatively 82 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,020 impacted and like, Oh yeah, I know. I saw that and I don't care because I'm over here 83 00:07:50,020 --> 00:07:57,560 doing my thing and you made assumptions about me based on the tea in the room. 84 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,920 That's excellent. I love it. Like, and because you talked about it, you found out that there 85 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,800 was no problem. Yeah. Like I guess if you could distill relationship 86 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:10,440 anarchy down into basic concepts, self-determination, community building, and self-determination 87 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:16,100 doesn't mean I as an individual necessarily as much as it means self as in a group of 88 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:23,720 people are not ruled over by a king or a governor or legislature. They decide their own laws 89 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,440 and their own rules in political anarchy. And so then in relationship anarchy, you have 90 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,920 a group of people, a community of people that you intentionally build and they all work 91 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:39,720 together to have a symbiosis, I guess is the word peaceful coexistence. 92 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,520 Yeah, sure. Exactly. And the conditions to thrive because it's not just about surviving. 93 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,960 Yes. So what we're talking about is an intentional 94 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:55,960 rejection of harmful imposed paradigms. Relationship anarchy is like, nah, which it seems like 95 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,620 relationship anarchy is saying most of what society has produced as a culture, at least 96 00:09:01,620 --> 00:09:07,880 in Western culture is harmful in a way. I find it hard to argue with. 97 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:14,880 Yeah. Well, there's all of these subtle power dynamics at play anywhere from our government 98 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:22,480 to religion to our economic structure and all these influences on us that are all just 99 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:28,360 kind of fading into the background. Like, you know, the radiation snapshot of the creation 100 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,720 of the universe, you don't see it, but it's sitting there in the background impacting 101 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,920 your life every day. And so relationship anarchy really challenges you to think about that 102 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,520 at every step. I really appreciate that part of it. It is 103 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:50,420 a good thing to act and live with more intention and honest intention. Yeah. So the dominant 104 00:09:50,420 --> 00:09:57,960 paradigm is very romance and sexual exclusivity are the hierarchical most important, most 105 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:04,640 valid relationships. Relationship anarchy would say they are not more important than 106 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,400 your platonic friend, than all the rest of relationships in your life. 107 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,280 And what is a platonic friend anyway? We're kind of getting into labels, but you know, 108 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,320 all of those labels have baggage like, oh, a platonic friend is someone that I shouldn't 109 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,920 have romantic feelings for someone I shouldn't have sex with. 110 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:27,840 Well, I mean, if you take the word should out, it's just my platonic partner, I do not 111 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:33,720 have physical connection with. Yeah. It's hard though to use words when you're 112 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,840 challenged to think about all of the things, all the baggage that comes with all of those 113 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,100 words. Right. That goes back to what you were saying 114 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,400 earlier about it just being a lot of work. Yeah. 115 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,360 Like in a lot of people just kind of, I would rather not think about every single word choice 116 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,920 and every single choice in my life. Right. It kind of makes me think, I'm also 117 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:58,280 an atheist. And so it kind of makes me think how it might have felt like 400 years ago 118 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:03,560 to be an atheist, right? Where you just can't really, you're in this world where you just 119 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:08,060 can't talk about it. Now, back then, like I can go around and be like, I'm a relationship 120 00:11:08,060 --> 00:11:11,320 anarchist and no one's going to like burn me at the stake. Right. So maybe, you know, 121 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,420 it's not even that bad, but even the fact that no one's going to kill me for coming 122 00:11:14,420 --> 00:11:19,040 out as a relationship right now, at least not in America, no one's going to kill me 123 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:25,880 for that is still hard. It's still a hard thing. And Juan Carlos talks about this liminal 124 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,240 space where when you're trying to do this new thing that bucks the system, you end up 125 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:38,840 feeling very alone. Like an alien, a stranger in a strange land. I feel like with you, I 126 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:44,040 could, you know, talk about that. You and I have a friendship, an existing relationship 127 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,040 that's pretty cordial. And that's something I could be like, wait a second, let's talk 128 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,600 about that. And you'd be like, yeah, let's talk about that. But then other people might 129 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,840 be like, dude, I'm just sitting next to you at the bar. Stop pestering me. I just asked 130 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:03,600 for you to pass the peanuts. What do you mean by pass? So, you know, like it's like, it's 131 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,760 a hard win. You want to do a thing and no one else is doing it. 132 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:14,800 Yeah. Oh my gosh. I've had that big, big relating energy right there. Actually, that's kind 133 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:20,400 of how this podcast started. It's just Nova and I recognize that we were both the types 134 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,840 that wanted to go, yeah, let's talk about that. Right. It's a good idea. I'm glad you 135 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,040 guys came together on that. And I'm glad that you guys are including me in that journey. 136 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:35,400 Yeah. Hell yeah. So I think we talked a lot about what relationship anarchy is, and now 137 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,280 it will be helpful. I mean, we have mentioned some misconceptions and some kind of assumptions 138 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:47,080 about relationship anarchy, but let's intentionally jump to what relationship anarchy is not. 139 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:52,080 The very first time I heard the term relationship anarchy, your mind immediately jumps to like 140 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,120 a riot in the street because you're thinking of political anarchy as chaos, right? Which 141 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,400 is actually not even true. And that's not true either. But that's the cartoon version 142 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:07,800 of it, right? So relationship anarchy you picture is relational chaos. It's like no 143 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:13,160 rules, every no holds barred. Everything's like messy and like does everyone just does 144 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,880 whatever they want. So, so anarchy literally means without a ruler or no ruler. Right. 145 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,080 And so political anarchy says, yeah, right. Everyone in a community organizes together 146 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:30,300 and makes decisions together. And that's really hard to do. But a lot of people assume because 147 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:34,800 you've grown up, we've grown up in a world where, you know, even in a representative 148 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:41,760 democracy, we have people who are in charge. We have abdicated the responsibility to making, 149 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:48,160 you know, important cultural and societal decisions to the small handful of people. 150 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:53,320 What if they go away? What will happen? It will be anarchy. Yeah, literally will be anarchy, 151 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:59,900 but it can be chaos if you don't stand up and organize and take the reins, right? As 152 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:03,760 a community. Right. That idea of it being chaos is kind of like if you're not telling 153 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:10,200 people what to do, then they'll be mean and behave poorly and in bad faith. Yeah. And 154 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:16,760 relationship anarchy is like, we all have the capacity to work for our own and collective 155 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:25,280 wellbeing. If we work together in good faith, in honesty and, you know, transparency, then 156 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,740 it's not chaos. Then it is, it's just self-management. We're just taking care of ourselves any 157 00:14:29,740 --> 00:14:36,360 other. And I think people, individuals acting in bad faith in an anarchy context will quickly 158 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:43,360 be found out. I don't know if you're aware of the, the quote by J.R.R. Tolkien about 159 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,720 anarchy, political anarchy. But I just, I wanted to read it because I really enjoy it 160 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:54,360 because some of his humor in there. My political opinions lean more and more to anarchy philosophically 161 00:14:54,360 --> 00:15:00,400 understood meaning abolition of control, not whiskered men with bombs or to unconstitutional 162 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,800 monarchy. So he's even kind of calling out this, you know, idea that like people think 163 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:12,160 anarchy is just people running around throwing bombs and causing chaos. And that's not, that's 164 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,960 not what it was. And that's not really what it ever has been. I think there can be what 165 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,440 you mentioned is not chaos, but there can be relationship chaos and you can act in a 166 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:30,560 way that is chaotic. Sure. And it's, it totally relies on your skill at negotiating and navigating 167 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:36,520 relationship complexity. It is not simple. Yeah, I would say like, and the more relationships 168 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:44,640 you have, the more complex it can get. The more connections, the more conversation. So 169 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:50,400 another and we kind of touched on this already before, but an assumption that people might 170 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,840 have about a relationship anarchist. And I think again, this mainly comes up in the dating 171 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:00,640 scene is that they're selfish, that they're completely self-obsessed, self-focused at 172 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,960 the, you know, the detriment of anyone else in their life. Like they're not going to 173 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:11,120 take care of the other people in their relationships. And I think that's a pretty easy one to challenge. 174 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,920 I mean, it sounds like you defined like a narcissist or something. Sure. I mean, I think 175 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:20,120 that's a person. That's the stigma. I think, Oh, that like, if you're a relationship 176 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,120 anarchist, you must be some kind of narcissist. You must only care about yourself. Yeah. Well, 177 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:29,600 that's the chaos version of anarchy. Yeah. About the not caring about the consequences. 178 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:35,400 Every person for themselves get what's good for me at the expense of others. So I think 179 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,640 it might be fun. What we kind of often do in this podcast is relate it to something 180 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:47,160 from our lives. So I'll talk just briefly about how I realized relationship anarchy 181 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:54,040 was something that in a lot of ways does apply to me and the way I do live my life. You know, 182 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,240 I was going into a period where I was like, okay, I'm going to start dating. I got on 183 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:05,640 the apps and when I was trying to describe how my life worked and how it appeared, that 184 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,280 would be helpful for other people to understand. I came across the term relationship anarchy. 185 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:15,080 And I even think that, I mean, this was not that long ago. The first few times I tried 186 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:20,200 describing it would sound a lot more like the what relationship anarchy is not part 187 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,960 of our discussion versus what it actually is. So that was before I had done a whole 188 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:30,720 lot of research and reading on it. But a lot of things did inherently line up for me. It's 189 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:36,880 not like I now had a guidebook because I found the right word. It was more that it felt validating 190 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:43,440 to me that the direction I had been kind of trending towards of, you know, being more 191 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:50,120 intentional and examining my motives and examining the baggage that comes with certain terms. 192 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:54,800 A lot of the stuff that you've been talking about, those things just, I was doing them 193 00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:00,680 and didn't even realize there was a whole word for it, you know? And we, I'm kind of 194 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,560 glossing over the fact that like I do have a family that a lot of people would consider 195 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,440 and that looks like kitchen table probably because I'm very enmeshed with you and Nova 196 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:17,800 and Sunny and Stevie and we kind of have this family, you know, polycule unit, you know? 197 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:23,920 And I would still challenge people to be open to the possibility that I can be part of a 198 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:31,480 kitchen table situation and a solo polyamorous relationship anarchist by day and part of 199 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,840 the family man by night. Like I think those things aren't mutually exclusive and I mean 200 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:42,120 that's a whole nother episode in itself. But I do really like that I didn't find out the 201 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:47,520 term and then try to model myself after it. I just realized that I was already doing it. 202 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:53,640 Yeah that's interesting and you threw a lot of terms. You know, I hear Reed, a lot of 203 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:59,840 people talk about I'm solo poly, I'm kitchen table poly, I'm parallel poly. What is all 204 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:05,080 that? I think relationship anarchy would challenge you to look at all of those labels and say 205 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:13,320 you can be all of those or none of those. And by the way let's even define those because 206 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,840 I think a lot of people, I've ever even heard debates about kitchen table poly where it's 207 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:22,900 like I have to be best friends with my metamora for kitchen table and it's like what? Part 208 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:27,240 of that says that and maybe that's your definition but that's not my definition. Talking about 209 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:33,400 labels I think in the framework or the value structure of relationship anarchy they would 210 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,760 just say yeah just be upfront about that and talk about that. But you can also hang around 211 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:43,400 the kitchen table with those people. Exactly. Like I think relationship anarchy would totally 212 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:50,240 be cool with me becoming more or less enmeshed like as we both decide is good for us. Yeah 213 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:56,800 I think you're exhibiting the values of relationship anarchy fairly well. It's interesting we talk 214 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,200 about what is relationship anarchy but it really, I don't even know, I thought of the 215 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,920 word framework and I don't even know if it's a framework but it is, I like the idea of 216 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:11,280 like a value structure or a value proposition. Like these are the things that relationship 217 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:17,400 anarchists value but there aren't any like injunctions to do certain things or behave 218 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:23,700 in a certain way beyond examine the power structures in your life and break down the 219 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:31,160 assumptions about labels and make a community that is you know non-hierarchical and all 220 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:41,920 works together. Have no ruler in your relationship. Power to the people. Yeah exactly. Because 221 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,800 you can totally be polyamorous and be on relationship escalators and do all these other things that 222 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:54,600 the current culture and social structure is totally fine with. You might even adopt them 223 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,160 out of self-defense. Being like see we're not too weird. Yeah oh that's an interesting 224 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:05,720 point. I'm glad you brought that up. Kind of raising your hand up and being like hey 225 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,680 I want the thing that I do to be totally normal in relationship anarchy. He's like no no no 226 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:16,840 you should walk away from all of that and build a new thing from scratch. And when you 227 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,440 do that you end up in that liminal space where you feel like an outcast and you feel like 228 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:27,380 you have no home and you feel it's demoralizing. Yeah it can be tough to struggle against that. 229 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:32,000 Yeah but that's good. So when you have already have kind of a community like you said you 230 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:38,160 do that's a good place to start. If you can get the people in your pre-existing community 231 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:44,120 on board then you're in that space together and that's always it's always easier to face 232 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:50,560 that kind of unknown with friends. When you're a kid and you go down into the dark basement 233 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,920 it's better to take a friend down there with you. If you go down there by yourself there's 234 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,840 like ghosts or something and you run back upstairs. I do find personal fulfillment in 235 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:06,800 the resistance by existing of the like finding that going down that dark scary path because 236 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:13,520 it's worth you know being an example of the thing that feels right to me. It's not the 237 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:20,200 you know the socially acceptable path really but it feels more authentic. Yeah and I think 238 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:25,240 Relationship Anarchy does hold a lot of space and a lot of welcome energy for that kind 239 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,560 of thing. And on that note. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us Elliot. You're welcome 240 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,000 thanks for having me. I had a fantastic conversation with you today. Me too. And hopefully we'll 241 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:44,160 hear from you again soon. I hope so too. 242 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,000 Well I'm not gonna just sit here like this I'm gonna feel like I'm in class. And the 243 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,560 teacher's not calling on you.