Hi! Hello! Welcome back to Mindful Poly. This is going to be a fun, different episode because
you may notice that Nova's voice sounds a little different this time. Very different.
Actually, it's not Nova at all. This is Elliot. Is he going to be our co-host for today, Elliot?
Hello, I'm Elliot. I'm partnered with Nova. Sure. Yeah. We invited you just because we
thought it would be fun, and this was the topic you were most interested in talking about.
Yeah, for sure. So, relationship anarchy, which we'll quickly define as a style of inter-reliance
built on choice rather than social expectations and externally imposed obligations. What I take
from that is it's about being intentional and specifically choosing each element of your
relationships that you want to have. Yeah, relationship anarchy is like when you start
to dig into it, you realize it is a lot of work, and it's probably work we should have
been doing in our relationships all along. Yeah, right? It's a lot of removing assumption.
Yeah, because you've talked about them, and you've negotiated a relationship with each
individual that you're in a relationship with, and guess what? You're in a relationship with
literally everyone you know. Oh my gosh. This will be a great spot. Do you have that quote
from the book? So, I think we should name the book. It's called Relationship Anarchy,
Occupy Intimacy by Juan Carlos Perez Cortez, and he says, when we don't position some relationships
as higher than others in terms of status, we don't need to allow ourselves to have several
relationships. We already do. And so, what he's saying is, you know, I think that came
from a specific part of the book where he was kind of critiquing polyamory as an answer
and a response to monogamy, which was, oh, I get to have multiple relationships. And,
you know, the author saying, guess what? You already are in multiple relationships. You're
in a relationship with your mom and your dad and your brother and your sister and your
siblings and all of your friends and all of your workers, coworkers, you know, all of
it. Everyone in your life. Yeah. By definition, almost you can't have hierarchy because you're
in each new relationship when you're having your negotiation or discussion about the kind
of arrangement you want. It's brand new from scratch with that person, right? It's as if
there aren't other ones that also exist. I think that's, and I think that is the wrong
interpretation of what relationship anarchy is. That's the interpretation that I kind
of went into it with initially. It was like, well, I can make this relationship whatever
I want, but guess what? I have a child who has a mother who I live with, both of those
people and I have obligations to them. So even though I want to say I'm not hierarchical,
that does not mean that, you know, one relationship is immediately equal to a new one. So like
the relationship I have that is 10 years in the making is absolutely more impactful to
my life and more meaningful than the person I just met that I think is cute, right? And
so I have to, the complex, the complexity of it comes in where it's like, if it's, if
you've never met anyone in your life and you meet someone, you can negotiate whatever kind
of relationship you want with them. But once you start making those connections and once
you start having obligations and commitments to those individuals, and I don't think relationship
anarchy says you shouldn't have obligations and commitments to the people you love, right?
Once you have that, they become part of the equation of any new negotiation by definition.
Now they may not be directly involved, but you can't just sweep them away and be like,
well, I'm super in love with this person now, so I'm going to move to Las Vegas. You know?
Well, I mean, you could. You could, right? Yes. The people in your life may or may not
feel very good about that. Exactly. I honestly don't think you can have a hierarchy without
some kind of privileged structure that really relationship anarchy would seek to dismantle.
So while I think that you can have labels and I think labels can be useful, I think
relationship anarchy would say hierarchies are never a good thing because they necessarily
mean there's a power structure there that we're seeking to eliminate.
Wow. Yeah. I like the way you put that. Well, in that case, do you think that the word priorities
might be a little bit more helpful of a term when you're trying to describe the, like you
said, like you have a child with a partner. So that child and that partner, your kind
of enmeshment with that partner to take care of that child is a priority for you. And like,
so that doesn't necessarily mean that you've imposed a hierarchy with that partner on all
your other partners. Right. Right. But that we can for sure have
priorities because that's just how you organize where you put your effort.
That's part of that discussion too, because again, some of these things can, can sneak
in the baggage and the preconceptions. They sneak in if you're not careful because we
are steeped in our culture. Like, like we're a cup of water and a bag of tea has been dropped
into us. Right. And we've that, that bag of tea is sat there our entire life, just turning
us into tea. Right. If we're all born water, we, we end up tea and relationship anarchy
is saying you don't have to stay that kind of tea, right? You can do a different kind
of tea or you could be coffee or whatever it is. Um, but if you're not careful, that
tea flavor, that taste is going to remain no matter what you do, it's always going to
be there because you're just steeped in it. And so when you're talking about priorities,
other people, I suspect might just hijack that and call that hierarchy. And so you still
have to have a conversation around it, but I think you're right. I think priorities are
the right way to look at it. Again, it just has to be talked about.
Sure. Like just because I started using a different word doesn't now mean I'm no longer
imposing hierarchy. Yeah. Yeah. We can go around saying that we're non-hierarchical,
but we have to be non-hierarchical and practice, not just stating it. Right. And so you have
to like, what are the power imbalances if you and I have been married for 20 years and
we open our relationship with every intent to be non-hierarchical and I meet someone
and that person picks up on this thing that no one's talking about that. And that thing
being you and I and our 20 year shared history clearly have this shared history and you clearly
exert power on my relationship with this other person and no one's talking about it. Like
a physical body having gravity. Yeah, sure. And though we can't really control
gravity yet, we can control the ways that our power imbalances impact other people around
us even just by calling them out and recognizing them. Sure. Acknowledging them.
Not always, but sometimes it's enough. Yeah. Name the beast. Yeah. Like point out the elephant
in the room. Well, maybe that third person is actually
okay with that and we've made assumptions that they're not or that they're being negatively
impacted and like, Oh yeah, I know. I saw that and I don't care because I'm over here
doing my thing and you made assumptions about me based on the tea in the room.
That's excellent. I love it. Like, and because you talked about it, you found out that there
was no problem. Yeah. Like I guess if you could distill relationship
anarchy down into basic concepts, self-determination, community building, and self-determination
doesn't mean I as an individual necessarily as much as it means self as in a group of
people are not ruled over by a king or a governor or legislature. They decide their own laws
and their own rules in political anarchy. And so then in relationship anarchy, you have
a group of people, a community of people that you intentionally build and they all work
together to have a symbiosis, I guess is the word peaceful coexistence.
Yeah, sure. Exactly. And the conditions to thrive because it's not just about surviving.
Yes. So what we're talking about is an intentional
rejection of harmful imposed paradigms. Relationship anarchy is like, nah, which it seems like
relationship anarchy is saying most of what society has produced as a culture, at least
in Western culture is harmful in a way. I find it hard to argue with.
Yeah. Well, there's all of these subtle power dynamics at play anywhere from our government
to religion to our economic structure and all these influences on us that are all just
kind of fading into the background. Like, you know, the radiation snapshot of the creation
of the universe, you don't see it, but it's sitting there in the background impacting
your life every day. And so relationship anarchy really challenges you to think about that
at every step. I really appreciate that part of it. It is
a good thing to act and live with more intention and honest intention. Yeah. So the dominant
paradigm is very romance and sexual exclusivity are the hierarchical most important, most
valid relationships. Relationship anarchy would say they are not more important than
your platonic friend, than all the rest of relationships in your life.
And what is a platonic friend anyway? We're kind of getting into labels, but you know,
all of those labels have baggage like, oh, a platonic friend is someone that I shouldn't
have romantic feelings for someone I shouldn't have sex with.
Well, I mean, if you take the word should out, it's just my platonic partner, I do not
have physical connection with. Yeah. It's hard though to use words when you're
challenged to think about all of the things, all the baggage that comes with all of those
words. Right. That goes back to what you were saying
earlier about it just being a lot of work. Yeah.
Like in a lot of people just kind of, I would rather not think about every single word choice
and every single choice in my life. Right. It kind of makes me think, I'm also
an atheist. And so it kind of makes me think how it might have felt like 400 years ago
to be an atheist, right? Where you just can't really, you're in this world where you just
can't talk about it. Now, back then, like I can go around and be like, I'm a relationship
anarchist and no one's going to like burn me at the stake. Right. So maybe, you know,
it's not even that bad, but even the fact that no one's going to kill me for coming
out as a relationship right now, at least not in America, no one's going to kill me
for that is still hard. It's still a hard thing. And Juan Carlos talks about this liminal
space where when you're trying to do this new thing that bucks the system, you end up
feeling very alone. Like an alien, a stranger in a strange land. I feel like with you, I
could, you know, talk about that. You and I have a friendship, an existing relationship
that's pretty cordial. And that's something I could be like, wait a second, let's talk
about that. And you'd be like, yeah, let's talk about that. But then other people might
be like, dude, I'm just sitting next to you at the bar. Stop pestering me. I just asked
for you to pass the peanuts. What do you mean by pass? So, you know, like it's like, it's
a hard win. You want to do a thing and no one else is doing it.
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I've had that big, big relating energy right there. Actually, that's kind
of how this podcast started. It's just Nova and I recognize that we were both the types
that wanted to go, yeah, let's talk about that. Right. It's a good idea. I'm glad you
guys came together on that. And I'm glad that you guys are including me in that journey.
Yeah. Hell yeah. So I think we talked a lot about what relationship anarchy is, and now
it will be helpful. I mean, we have mentioned some misconceptions and some kind of assumptions
about relationship anarchy, but let's intentionally jump to what relationship anarchy is not.
The very first time I heard the term relationship anarchy, your mind immediately jumps to like
a riot in the street because you're thinking of political anarchy as chaos, right? Which
is actually not even true. And that's not true either. But that's the cartoon version
of it, right? So relationship anarchy you picture is relational chaos. It's like no
rules, every no holds barred. Everything's like messy and like does everyone just does
whatever they want. So, so anarchy literally means without a ruler or no ruler. Right.
And so political anarchy says, yeah, right. Everyone in a community organizes together
and makes decisions together. And that's really hard to do. But a lot of people assume because
you've grown up, we've grown up in a world where, you know, even in a representative
democracy, we have people who are in charge. We have abdicated the responsibility to making,
you know, important cultural and societal decisions to the small handful of people.
What if they go away? What will happen? It will be anarchy. Yeah, literally will be anarchy,
but it can be chaos if you don't stand up and organize and take the reins, right? As
a community. Right. That idea of it being chaos is kind of like if you're not telling
people what to do, then they'll be mean and behave poorly and in bad faith. Yeah. And
relationship anarchy is like, we all have the capacity to work for our own and collective
wellbeing. If we work together in good faith, in honesty and, you know, transparency, then
it's not chaos. Then it is, it's just self-management. We're just taking care of ourselves any
other. And I think people, individuals acting in bad faith in an anarchy context will quickly
be found out. I don't know if you're aware of the, the quote by J.R.R. Tolkien about
anarchy, political anarchy. But I just, I wanted to read it because I really enjoy it
because some of his humor in there. My political opinions lean more and more to anarchy philosophically
understood meaning abolition of control, not whiskered men with bombs or to unconstitutional
monarchy. So he's even kind of calling out this, you know, idea that like people think
anarchy is just people running around throwing bombs and causing chaos. And that's not, that's
not what it was. And that's not really what it ever has been. I think there can be what
you mentioned is not chaos, but there can be relationship chaos and you can act in a
way that is chaotic. Sure. And it's, it totally relies on your skill at negotiating and navigating
relationship complexity. It is not simple. Yeah, I would say like, and the more relationships
you have, the more complex it can get. The more connections, the more conversation. So
another and we kind of touched on this already before, but an assumption that people might
have about a relationship anarchist. And I think again, this mainly comes up in the dating
scene is that they're selfish, that they're completely self-obsessed, self-focused at
the, you know, the detriment of anyone else in their life. Like they're not going to
take care of the other people in their relationships. And I think that's a pretty easy one to challenge.
I mean, it sounds like you defined like a narcissist or something. Sure. I mean, I think
that's a person. That's the stigma. I think, Oh, that like, if you're a relationship
anarchist, you must be some kind of narcissist. You must only care about yourself. Yeah. Well,
that's the chaos version of anarchy. Yeah. About the not caring about the consequences.
Every person for themselves get what's good for me at the expense of others. So I think
it might be fun. What we kind of often do in this podcast is relate it to something
from our lives. So I'll talk just briefly about how I realized relationship anarchy
was something that in a lot of ways does apply to me and the way I do live my life. You know,
I was going into a period where I was like, okay, I'm going to start dating. I got on
the apps and when I was trying to describe how my life worked and how it appeared, that
would be helpful for other people to understand. I came across the term relationship anarchy.
And I even think that, I mean, this was not that long ago. The first few times I tried
describing it would sound a lot more like the what relationship anarchy is not part
of our discussion versus what it actually is. So that was before I had done a whole
lot of research and reading on it. But a lot of things did inherently line up for me. It's
not like I now had a guidebook because I found the right word. It was more that it felt validating
to me that the direction I had been kind of trending towards of, you know, being more
intentional and examining my motives and examining the baggage that comes with certain terms.
A lot of the stuff that you've been talking about, those things just, I was doing them
and didn't even realize there was a whole word for it, you know? And we, I'm kind of
glossing over the fact that like I do have a family that a lot of people would consider
and that looks like kitchen table probably because I'm very enmeshed with you and Nova
and Sunny and Stevie and we kind of have this family, you know, polycule unit, you know?
And I would still challenge people to be open to the possibility that I can be part of a
kitchen table situation and a solo polyamorous relationship anarchist by day and part of
the family man by night. Like I think those things aren't mutually exclusive and I mean
that's a whole nother episode in itself. But I do really like that I didn't find out the
term and then try to model myself after it. I just realized that I was already doing it.
Yeah that's interesting and you threw a lot of terms. You know, I hear Reed, a lot of
people talk about I'm solo poly, I'm kitchen table poly, I'm parallel poly. What is all
that? I think relationship anarchy would challenge you to look at all of those labels and say
you can be all of those or none of those. And by the way let's even define those because
I think a lot of people, I've ever even heard debates about kitchen table poly where it's
like I have to be best friends with my metamora for kitchen table and it's like what? Part
of that says that and maybe that's your definition but that's not my definition. Talking about
labels I think in the framework or the value structure of relationship anarchy they would
just say yeah just be upfront about that and talk about that. But you can also hang around
the kitchen table with those people. Exactly. Like I think relationship anarchy would totally
be cool with me becoming more or less enmeshed like as we both decide is good for us. Yeah
I think you're exhibiting the values of relationship anarchy fairly well. It's interesting we talk
about what is relationship anarchy but it really, I don't even know, I thought of the
word framework and I don't even know if it's a framework but it is, I like the idea of
like a value structure or a value proposition. Like these are the things that relationship
anarchists value but there aren't any like injunctions to do certain things or behave
in a certain way beyond examine the power structures in your life and break down the
assumptions about labels and make a community that is you know non-hierarchical and all
works together. Have no ruler in your relationship. Power to the people. Yeah exactly. Because
you can totally be polyamorous and be on relationship escalators and do all these other things that
the current culture and social structure is totally fine with. You might even adopt them
out of self-defense. Being like see we're not too weird. Yeah oh that's an interesting
point. I'm glad you brought that up. Kind of raising your hand up and being like hey
I want the thing that I do to be totally normal in relationship anarchy. He's like no no no
you should walk away from all of that and build a new thing from scratch. And when you
do that you end up in that liminal space where you feel like an outcast and you feel like
you have no home and you feel it's demoralizing. Yeah it can be tough to struggle against that.
Yeah but that's good. So when you have already have kind of a community like you said you
do that's a good place to start. If you can get the people in your pre-existing community
on board then you're in that space together and that's always it's always easier to face
that kind of unknown with friends. When you're a kid and you go down into the dark basement
it's better to take a friend down there with you. If you go down there by yourself there's
like ghosts or something and you run back upstairs. I do find personal fulfillment in
the resistance by existing of the like finding that going down that dark scary path because
it's worth you know being an example of the thing that feels right to me. It's not the
you know the socially acceptable path really but it feels more authentic. Yeah and I think
Relationship Anarchy does hold a lot of space and a lot of welcome energy for that kind
of thing. And on that note. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us Elliot. You're welcome
thanks for having me. I had a fantastic conversation with you today. Me too. And hopefully we'll
hear from you again soon. I hope so too.
Well I'm not gonna just sit here like this I'm gonna feel like I'm in class. And the
teacher's not calling on you.