Hi Nova.
Hi Fox.
Welcome back.
We're back.
New season.
Oh my gosh.
Season two.
It's been so long.
I know.
I'm so ready.
Yeah, yeah.
What are we talking about this time?
We are talking about rules versus boundaries.
Oh yes.
Yes.
So this is our Big Feels series.
This is episode number two of that series.
So I think what makes this series so special is that it's a series that's been made for
number two of that series, so I think what makes rules versus boundaries so interesting
is that it's sort of like, it's a really ongoing topic.
It's not a really easy cut and dry like, here it is, everyone knows exactly this and here's
how to understand it.
Oh, I wish that it were.
There's so much gray.
There's so much nuance.
So let's start with rules.
So, what is a rule?
A set of explicit regulations governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere.
Yeah, that's the really like stuffy way to describe it.
Stuffy.
Yes, yes.
And I will say, early on in poly, when I was getting started, it was all about rules.
That's what I remember most strongly about getting started was the idea that rules were
how you did poly.
Clear, upfront.
And to the credit of rules, the idea was that if you're really self-aware, then you can
craft rules that are really good.
And bonus, if you have clear rules, other people agreeing to them can consent to them
because they're clear.
It was kind of like a shortcut to good communication.
Yeah, I think that's one way of thinking about it.
To me, it was like, I've already done all the work upfront and I've written a manual
about how to date me, here it is.
The giant tome that you present.
Turn to page 367.
If you'll note.
Subsection paragraph two.
The dog-eared pages.
Subsection B.
Yes, yes, yes.
It's a very sexy way to start a relationship.
The do not date my coworkers clause.
Yeah, and that actually, you know, as far as examples go, I think that's kind of a good
example.
I don't think I've ever had that rule or encountered that rule, but I think that would be a pretty
straightforward one, you know, to say like, hey, I don't want you to date anyone that
I'm currently working with.
Right?
So even though there were some really great aspects to rules, I think that the poly community
quickly found where rules start to break down or where they fail.
Right.
The underlying problematic side.
Yes.
And I think one of the things that's problem that can be problematic about rules is that
they're usually about protecting one particular relationship.
I feel like a lot of times when you hear about rules, it's in the context of hierarchical
poly.
And so a lot of times those rules are often finding ways to protect that relationship.
Right.
And that's a form of poly still widely practiced today.
Sure.
It's not like that was old school poly and then we've moved on.
No, but I do think that that was why rules were so popular.
They were like, look at how you can, you know, be poly and still protect the relationships
that are important to you is by making these rules.
Sure.
I'm sure it definitely helped instill that sense of safety.
Right.
There were a couple of ways, though, that I think those rules started to, I don't know,
cause strife for people who are practicing poly that way.
One is that it's easy to say, sure, I won't date your coworkers.
No problem.
And that's an easy thing to agree to when you've never met their coworkers.
You might understand the reason for it.
Yeah.
But they got some hot coworkers.
So like, can we revisit that?
Right.
So I think it's often, you know, intellectual mind is a little different than emotional mind.
Sure.
And the other way that it often broke down is that a lot of times because rules are about
you like, or about the relation, people in a relationship agreeing to them, other people
don't get a chance to make them or change them.
People who will be affected by those rules.
Yes.
Right.
So I think that's a good way to be.
I do have a partner that I love to, that I've traveled to Cancun with many times, which
would be Elliot.
And we have a great time there.
And in a world where we wanted to protect that relationship or protect that special
thing we've done, we could say, okay, you can only travel to Cancun with me.
You can't travel with anyone else.
Sure.
And so in that world, anyone else he meets would have to abide by this rule that they
didn't get to participate in.
I mean, it could be that they also love to travel to Cancun, but they didn't get to
make or change that rule.
So yeah, the partner that doesn't get to go to Cancun with Elliot now because of this
hypothetical rule, but they're not in the primary relationship.
They're not in the you and Elliot relationship that set up that rule.
So why would they get a say?
Well, because entering into a relationship with Elliot, to have an authentic relationship
with him, it feels like they should have an opportunity to make choices about the things
they can and can't share together, to just have someone else, i.e. me, butting in and
telling them, listen, you can and can't do this.
You know, I mean, it doesn't give them an opportunity to be involved in that discussion.
And that's the slightly messy side of rules.
Yeah, I think that's where they can splash over onto other people.
Yeah, I think that's where they can cause problems.
They have wide ripple effects.
Yeah.
Which leads us to...
Boundaries.
The definition of a boundary.
In any relationship, boundaries define where things like our personhood, our identity,
our responsibility, and our control begin and end relative to the other person.
I think that's a little bit dry, but it's a good one, yeah, right?
I get excited about boundaries because I am so hyper focused on clearly outlining and
finding the edges of things.
Yes, yes, yes.
That gets me really excited.
Right.
And my version of, like, when I think about boundaries, what always pops into my head
is this idea of like a bubble around myself.
And I've got my own little bubble, my little hamster wheel or whatever.
And inside of it, I get to make things the way that I want them to be, that make me happy,
that serve my safety, my, you know, whatever my needs are.
And then other people I encounter have their bubbles.
I have my bubble.
Yeah.
And we're bouncing around.
I appreciate the people in those giant plastic bubbles.
But those don't get to overlap.
They just explode off of each other.
They have to be more like soap bubbles or something where you can...
Where they combine.
Yeah.
I mean, a Venn diagram is kind of the classic.
Right, right.
And so, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that is kind of a helpful way for me to picture where relationships happen is
in that overlap, that Venn diagram of overlap.
This is where I begin and end.
Here are the things I can offer.
This is where you begin and end.
That's what you can offer.
And we're like, ooh, right here.
That's our sweet spot.
Yeah.
Let's explore that area.
Right.
So one of the ways this came up for me was realizing how porous my own boundaries were.
Like, I was taking on my partner's reactions, their emotional responses.
I was taking on responsibility for those things.
As if they were in your bubble.
As if those were your things to own.
Yeah.
And it kind of made me realize, oh, like, I actually don't have my own clearly defined
spaces of what is mine.
Yeah.
I don't know where I end and they begin, and I need to find that.
For me, it often felt like it was my responsibility to manage my partner's reactions.
Ah.
And that's kind of where I would get preemptively assuming about how they would react to things.
Because I felt like that was part of what I had to do.
That was your job.
It was expected of me.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Like, you should have predicted this would hit me this way.
And so I have to, like, you know.
Start predicting.
Yeah.
I have to start predicting.
And then that there was a very specific aha with you where I made a mistake and immediately
jumped into groveling mode and apology mode.
Well, also projecting onto me how I would feel.
Well, exactly.
In particular, you told me that you felt bad about ruining my day.
And I was like, hold up.
Hold up.
That is an unfair thing to jump to.
Right.
Assuming.
Absolutely.
I mean, I because I immediately started apologizing because I assumed I had had that horrible
effect on you.
Yeah.
Which completely robbed you of the opportunity to feel your own feelings and then respond
in a more authentic way.
It would have if I hadn't asserted my boundaries and said, no, no, no.
I get to decide if my day is ruined and I'm here to tell you that it's not.
Which was obviously a relief, but it was a huge eye opener for me.
Yeah.
How much I was projecting, how much I was assuming responsibility.
So in the context of agreements in a relationship, though, how is a boundary different from a
rule?
I think that's a really good question.
The shorthand that I've heard a lot and I think you and I have used is that boundaries
are for me, kind of like those bubbles we've talked about, and rules are for you or us.
So a good example of the differences between the two in practice would be just using the
subject of barriers for sex would be we have a rule that we will use barriers with all
other partners.
Yeah.
For all kinds of sex.
Right.
An example of the boundary version of that would be I'm comfortable having sex without
barriers with you as long as you are SCD tested and let me know before we have sex again if
you have sex with any new partners.
Yeah.
Right.
So the difference between those two is that even though we both are agreeing to the rule,
it's something that was crafted together.
It's something that we are both beholden to versus the boundary is all about you individually
stating the kinds of things that you're comfortable with and what you're willing to offer.
Right.
One thing I think that's really interesting that that example brings up is that boundaries,
it sounds like we're saying that boundaries have more of a conversation going on.
There's more of a chance to keep that open.
Right.
I like that it plans for change to happen.
Change is going to happen.
Yeah.
Which is really nice.
I think there are a lot of times where we can take for granted that once we've been
offered something or once something has happened a certain way that it'll always be that way
that we'll always... If it comes to having sex without barriers, it's like, well, we
did it last time so we should...
It should still be okay.
Yeah.
That's something we should always do.
And I do like where boundaries can encourage that ongoing conversation.
But I do also want to push back a little bit on the idea that rules are not necessarily
always rigid.
I think even back in the world where Polly was all about the rules, there was still that
idea that you get your giant tome back out of the closet once a year and you flip through
the pages again and you're like, okay, okay, maybe, maybe this one's...
Right here above this line that you signed, this is your signature, is it not?
They're a clear bullet list of stipulations.
Yes, yes.
I think we shall amend section 14 paragraph 34.
I would like to...
What about bananas?
Dang it.
I meant 35.
Oh, okay.
Sorry.
That makes more sense.
So I would push back on the idea that a difference between rules and boundaries is that one is
rigid and the other is not, because I don't think either is necessarily rigid.
It can both be flexible.
Yeah.
It's not like this whole episode is going to be anti-rule, pro-boundary.
Sure.
And I think a really good example of that that comes to mind for me in my own life is
that one requirement for you to be able to enact boundaries is the ability to make choices
that are right for you.
So there are situations where you can't make those choices.
One that comes to mind for me with this example we just gave about having sex without barriers,
if you are trying to get pregnant, you can't also make choices.
You can't just say, if these circumstances change, I will change what I'm willing to
offer.
That means we're no longer having a kid.
Right, right.
Then you're talking about a much bigger question.
So some other reasons you might want to have rules in your relationships are if you cohabitate
with someone, if you co-parent with partners, if you share finances.
Anytime you're sharing resources or sharing responsibilities like that, there's very valid
reasons to have rules in place so that you all understand what the expectations are and
that there aren't any surprises.
It's definitely not that rules are bad.
Rules have a place and rules are rules.
Rules are always hmm, and boundaries are always huh.
No, that is not true.
That is not the point of the episode.
Although it was very cute.
Another thing that I think is really interesting is that we talked about boundaries being like
a bubble as if they are just like a static bubble.
And I think that's misleading too, because I think you can have boundaries that are set
in different places for different relationships.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
That kind of reminds me of my aha moment when I was applying a reaction that I expected
from you that I learned from a different partner.
And then I projected it onto other partners.
Yeah, yeah.
And I assumed that because you had a, and you could do the same thing, like in that
case you were talking about porous boundaries, but if you had a boundary in place with one
partner you might assume that you then need to have it in the same place with another.
And I really think that that is unfair to both you and your partners because different
relationships have different needs.
You're applying parameters that that person was not involved in creating.
Yeah.
And we have a very cute story about...
Oh, how you can have different... your boundaries can shift depending on the circumstances?
Yes, yes.
Okay.
You may proceed.
Because when you and I met, I had a boundary in place that I, when I met people, especially
on dating apps online that I didn't know prior to that, that I would meet them in a public
place for the first time.
Just to kind of like, you know, I have some boundaries around the safety of my home and
especially the safety of Sunny.
Right.
And you are the only person that I've shifted that boundary for.
Right.
So when we first met, you invited me to your home.
Yes.
That was our first meeting.
So I invited you to my porch and I felt comfortable doing that because I could tell that this
was a unique connection and I was honoring the uniqueness of it and I was aware that
it felt right to me to do it differently than I'd ever done before.
And that doesn't mean that anyone after you now should feel like they have a right to
meet me at my house the first time we meet.
You know, that is a thing that I can continue to decide if I'm willing to shift that boundary
ever again.
See, I love that example not just because I got special treatment, but I just still
appreciate the allowance for taking each individual circumstance and interaction on its own merit.
Yeah.
And allowing for, you know, this is a completely different set of parameters and circumstances.
Right.
So I can also see where this could be a struggle point for some people who are feeling insecurities
with a particular partner if they notice that that partner has different boundaries with
another partner than the boundaries they offer for them.
Oh my gosh, yeah.
I can think of a few examples of that.
Yeah, yeah.
That's tricky.
So something that I think often comes up, and this is when I most often hear it mentioned
in like popular culture and the general cultural consciousness is when a rule can be misrepresented
as a boundary.
Right.
Sneaky rule.
Rules masquerading.
Nightlife.
Rules masquerading as boundaries.
So example, if you have sex with anyone else, I will no longer offer a barrier-less sex.
Right.
So when you say that, you could present it as, that's just my boundary.
If you have sex with anyone else, I don't want to have sex without barriers with you
anymore.
But if you think about it, who is that really controlling?
Right.
Who is the person that's going to change their behavior?
Right.
It's your partner.
It's the person you're presenting that to.
You're extending control outside of your sphere of self.
Right.
So I think it's a really good example of one that's tricky.
It's so easy to say, well, that's just my boundary.
I'm just trying to feel safe and that's how I feel safe having sex without barriers.
But if you shifted that to the boundary we talked about earlier where you say, I'm happy
to have sex without barriers with you as long as you let me know the next time you add a
new partner, that shift in phrasing makes all the difference.
Right.
It's still tricky though.
It's very gray area, squishy topic.
Yeah.
I mean, it could amount to the same thing.
It could end up being that in practice, if that partner adds any new partners, you stop
having sex with them without barriers.
Yeah.
In practice, it could look exactly the same.
One thing that I've tried to explore as I'm crafting boundaries and trying to explore
the reasons behind them and where they're coming from is to imagine how I would feel
if a partner crosses that boundary or if I would need to change something based on their
behavior, how would I feel about that?
The way that I imagine my reaction tells me if I am in some ways trying to control their
behavior or if it really is just about me and me addressing my own needs.
Oh, that just hit me in my tummy.
Really?
How so?
Oh my gosh.
It felt like a brain hack to me.
I'm like, wow.
Okay, so I imagine how I would feel if challenged on that boundary.
Yeah.
And my reaction kind of gives me a clue about if really what I want to do is just wish they
would behave differently.
Oh, oh.
Yeah.
I got tingled.
You just got me good.
Yikes.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
I'm going to remember that one.
That's a new, that's in my toolbox.
Do we have a sound effect for your toolbox?
No.
Dang.
That's really hoping.
No sound effects.
Remember we discussed we're not going to do the cheesy radio show morning zoo type stuff.
Pew pew pew pew.
Pew pew pew.
Toolbox time.
Wow.
So rules versus boundaries.
Ta-da.
The episode.
You guys, he just did like this amazing like somersault into a double roll.
I'm so talented.
It's a tragedy.
You missed it.
One quick thing before we let you go.
We're doing the crowdsource audience participation question again.
What we need you to do is answer the question.
What makes you feel secure in a relationship?
You can record your answer or write to us at podcasts and mindfulpoly.com.
We'd love to hear your responses.
Can't wait.
Season one crowdsource question for inspiration.
Episode seven.
Season one.
Check it out.
I'm so surprised you didn't say you're a tool.
It's not my style.
No.