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Hi Nova.

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Hi Fox.

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Welcome back.

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We're back.

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New season.

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Oh my gosh.

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Season two.

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Season two.

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It's been so long.

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I know.

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I'm so ready.

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Yeah, yeah.

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What are we talking about this time?

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We are talking about rules versus boundaries.

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Oh yes.

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Yes.

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So this is our Big Feels series.

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This is episode number two of that series.

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So I think what makes this series so special is that it's a series that's been made for

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number two of that series, so I think what makes rules versus boundaries so interesting

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is that it's sort of like, it's a really ongoing topic.

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It's not a really easy cut and dry like, here it is, everyone knows exactly this and here's

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how to understand it.

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Oh, I wish that it were.

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There's so much gray.

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There's so much nuance.

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So let's start with rules.

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So, what is a rule?

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A set of explicit regulations governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere.

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Yeah, that's the really like stuffy way to describe it.

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Stuffy.

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Yes, yes.

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And I will say, early on in poly, when I was getting started, it was all about rules.

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That's what I remember most strongly about getting started was the idea that rules were

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how you did poly.

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Clear, upfront.

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And to the credit of rules, the idea was that if you're really self-aware, then you can

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craft rules that are really good.

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And bonus, if you have clear rules, other people agreeing to them can consent to them

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because they're clear.

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It was kind of like a shortcut to good communication.

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Yeah, I think that's one way of thinking about it.

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To me, it was like, I've already done all the work upfront and I've written a manual

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about how to date me, here it is.

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The giant tome that you present.

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Turn to page 367.

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If you'll note.

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Subsection paragraph two.

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The dog-eared pages.

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Subsection B.

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Yes, yes, yes.

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It's a very sexy way to start a relationship.

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The do not date my coworkers clause.

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Yeah, and that actually, you know, as far as examples go, I think that's kind of a good

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example.

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I don't think I've ever had that rule or encountered that rule, but I think that would be a pretty

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straightforward one, you know, to say like, hey, I don't want you to date anyone that

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I'm currently working with.

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Right?

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So even though there were some really great aspects to rules, I think that the poly community

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quickly found where rules start to break down or where they fail.

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Right.

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The underlying problematic side.

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Yes.

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And I think one of the things that's problem that can be problematic about rules is that

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they're usually about protecting one particular relationship.

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I feel like a lot of times when you hear about rules, it's in the context of hierarchical

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poly.

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And so a lot of times those rules are often finding ways to protect that relationship.

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Right.

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And that's a form of poly still widely practiced today.

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Sure.

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It's not like that was old school poly and then we've moved on.

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No, but I do think that that was why rules were so popular.

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They were like, look at how you can, you know, be poly and still protect the relationships

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that are important to you is by making these rules.

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Sure.

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I'm sure it definitely helped instill that sense of safety.

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Right.

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There were a couple of ways, though, that I think those rules started to, I don't know,

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cause strife for people who are practicing poly that way.

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One is that it's easy to say, sure, I won't date your coworkers.

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No problem.

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And that's an easy thing to agree to when you've never met their coworkers.

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You might understand the reason for it.

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Yeah.

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But they got some hot coworkers.

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So like, can we revisit that?

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Right.

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Right.

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So I think it's often, you know, intellectual mind is a little different than emotional mind.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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And the other way that it often broke down is that a lot of times because rules are about

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you like, or about the relation, people in a relationship agreeing to them, other people

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don't get a chance to make them or change them.

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People who will be affected by those rules.

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Yes.

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Right.

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So I think that's a good way to be.

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I do have a partner that I love to, that I've traveled to Cancun with many times, which

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would be Elliot.

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And we have a great time there.

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And in a world where we wanted to protect that relationship or protect that special

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thing we've done, we could say, okay, you can only travel to Cancun with me.

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You can't travel with anyone else.

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Sure.

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And so in that world, anyone else he meets would have to abide by this rule that they

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didn't get to participate in.

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I mean, it could be that they also love to travel to Cancun, but they didn't get to

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make or change that rule.

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So yeah, the partner that doesn't get to go to Cancun with Elliot now because of this

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hypothetical rule, but they're not in the primary relationship.

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They're not in the you and Elliot relationship that set up that rule.

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So why would they get a say?

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Well, because entering into a relationship with Elliot, to have an authentic relationship

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with him, it feels like they should have an opportunity to make choices about the things

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they can and can't share together, to just have someone else, i.e. me, butting in and

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telling them, listen, you can and can't do this.

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You know, I mean, it doesn't give them an opportunity to be involved in that discussion.

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And that's the slightly messy side of rules.

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Yeah, I think that's where they can splash over onto other people.

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Yeah, I think that's where they can cause problems.

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They have wide ripple effects.

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Yeah.

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Which leads us to...

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Boundaries.

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Boundaries.

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The definition of a boundary.

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In any relationship, boundaries define where things like our personhood, our identity,

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our responsibility, and our control begin and end relative to the other person.

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I think that's a little bit dry, but it's a good one, yeah, right?

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I get excited about boundaries because I am so hyper focused on clearly outlining and

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finding the edges of things.

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Yes, yes, yes.

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That gets me really excited.

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Right.

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And my version of, like, when I think about boundaries, what always pops into my head

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is this idea of like a bubble around myself.

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And I've got my own little bubble, my little hamster wheel or whatever.

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And inside of it, I get to make things the way that I want them to be, that make me happy,

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that serve my safety, my, you know, whatever my needs are.

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And then other people I encounter have their bubbles.

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I have my bubble.

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Yeah.

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And we're bouncing around.

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I appreciate the people in those giant plastic bubbles.

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But those don't get to overlap.

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They just explode off of each other.

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They have to be more like soap bubbles or something where you can...

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Where they combine.

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Yeah.

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I mean, a Venn diagram is kind of the classic.

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Right, right.

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And so, yeah, yeah.

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I mean, that is kind of a helpful way for me to picture where relationships happen is

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in that overlap, that Venn diagram of overlap.

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This is where I begin and end.

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Here are the things I can offer.

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This is where you begin and end.

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That's what you can offer.

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And we're like, ooh, right here.

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That's our sweet spot.

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Yeah.

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Let's explore that area.

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Right.

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So one of the ways this came up for me was realizing how porous my own boundaries were.

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Like, I was taking on my partner's reactions, their emotional responses.

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I was taking on responsibility for those things.

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As if they were in your bubble.

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As if those were your things to own.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it kind of made me realize, oh, like, I actually don't have my own clearly defined

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spaces of what is mine.

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Yeah.

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I don't know where I end and they begin, and I need to find that.

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For me, it often felt like it was my responsibility to manage my partner's reactions.

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Ah.

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And that's kind of where I would get preemptively assuming about how they would react to things.

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Because I felt like that was part of what I had to do.

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That was your job.

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It was expected of me.

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Yeah.

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Interesting.

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Like, you should have predicted this would hit me this way.

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And so I have to, like, you know.

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Start predicting.

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Yeah.

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I have to start predicting.

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And then that there was a very specific aha with you where I made a mistake and immediately

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jumped into groveling mode and apology mode.

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Well, also projecting onto me how I would feel.

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Well, exactly.

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In particular, you told me that you felt bad about ruining my day.

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And I was like, hold up.

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Hold up.

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That is an unfair thing to jump to.

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Right.

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Assuming.

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Absolutely.

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I mean, I because I immediately started apologizing because I assumed I had had that horrible

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effect on you.

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Yeah.

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Which completely robbed you of the opportunity to feel your own feelings and then respond

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in a more authentic way.

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It would have if I hadn't asserted my boundaries and said, no, no, no.

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I get to decide if my day is ruined and I'm here to tell you that it's not.

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Which was obviously a relief, but it was a huge eye opener for me.

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Yeah.

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How much I was projecting, how much I was assuming responsibility.

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So in the context of agreements in a relationship, though, how is a boundary different from a

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rule?

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I think that's a really good question.

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The shorthand that I've heard a lot and I think you and I have used is that boundaries

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are for me, kind of like those bubbles we've talked about, and rules are for you or us.

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So a good example of the differences between the two in practice would be just using the

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subject of barriers for sex would be we have a rule that we will use barriers with all

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other partners.

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Yeah.

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For all kinds of sex.

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Right.

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An example of the boundary version of that would be I'm comfortable having sex without

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barriers with you as long as you are SCD tested and let me know before we have sex again if

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you have sex with any new partners.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So the difference between those two is that even though we both are agreeing to the rule,

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it's something that was crafted together.

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It's something that we are both beholden to versus the boundary is all about you individually

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stating the kinds of things that you're comfortable with and what you're willing to offer.

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Right.

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One thing I think that's really interesting that that example brings up is that boundaries,

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it sounds like we're saying that boundaries have more of a conversation going on.

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There's more of a chance to keep that open.

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Right.

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I like that it plans for change to happen.

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Change is going to happen.

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Yeah.

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Which is really nice.

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I think there are a lot of times where we can take for granted that once we've been

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offered something or once something has happened a certain way that it'll always be that way

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that we'll always... If it comes to having sex without barriers, it's like, well, we

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did it last time so we should...

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It should still be okay.

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Yeah.

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That's something we should always do.

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And I do like where boundaries can encourage that ongoing conversation.

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But I do also want to push back a little bit on the idea that rules are not necessarily

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always rigid.

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I think even back in the world where Polly was all about the rules, there was still that

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idea that you get your giant tome back out of the closet once a year and you flip through

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the pages again and you're like, okay, okay, maybe, maybe this one's...

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Right here above this line that you signed, this is your signature, is it not?

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They're a clear bullet list of stipulations.

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Yes, yes.

257
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,600
I think we shall amend section 14 paragraph 34.

258
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,600
I would like to...

259
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:47,600
What about bananas?

260
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:48,600
Dang it.

261
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:49,600
I meant 35.

262
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:50,600
Oh, okay.

263
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:51,600
Sorry.

264
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:57,440
That makes more sense.

265
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,280
So I would push back on the idea that a difference between rules and boundaries is that one is

266
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,440
rigid and the other is not, because I don't think either is necessarily rigid.

267
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,480
It can both be flexible.

268
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:08,480
Yeah.

269
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,040
It's not like this whole episode is going to be anti-rule, pro-boundary.

270
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,040
Sure.

271
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,880
And I think a really good example of that that comes to mind for me in my own life is

272
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:25,960
that one requirement for you to be able to enact boundaries is the ability to make choices

273
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,160
that are right for you.

274
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,560
So there are situations where you can't make those choices.

275
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:39,540
One that comes to mind for me with this example we just gave about having sex without barriers,

276
00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:42,800
if you are trying to get pregnant, you can't also make choices.

277
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:48,720
You can't just say, if these circumstances change, I will change what I'm willing to

278
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:49,720
offer.

279
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,760
That means we're no longer having a kid.

280
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:52,760
Right, right.

281
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,680
Then you're talking about a much bigger question.

282
00:13:54,680 --> 00:14:01,440
So some other reasons you might want to have rules in your relationships are if you cohabitate

283
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:09,640
with someone, if you co-parent with partners, if you share finances.

284
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:15,000
Anytime you're sharing resources or sharing responsibilities like that, there's very valid

285
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:23,880
reasons to have rules in place so that you all understand what the expectations are and

286
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,720
that there aren't any surprises.

287
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,360
It's definitely not that rules are bad.

288
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:30,360
Rules have a place and rules are rules.

289
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,360
Rules are always hmm, and boundaries are always huh.

290
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,360
No, that is not true.

291
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,920
That is not the point of the episode.

292
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,320
Although it was very cute.

293
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,400
Another thing that I think is really interesting is that we talked about boundaries being like

294
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,000
a bubble as if they are just like a static bubble.

295
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,200
And I think that's misleading too, because I think you can have boundaries that are set

296
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,120
in different places for different relationships.

297
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,120
Yes.

298
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,240
Oh my gosh.

299
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:11,240
That kind of reminds me of my aha moment when I was applying a reaction that I expected

300
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,440
from you that I learned from a different partner.

301
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,640
And then I projected it onto other partners.

302
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,640
Yeah, yeah.

303
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,040
And I assumed that because you had a, and you could do the same thing, like in that

304
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,600
case you were talking about porous boundaries, but if you had a boundary in place with one

305
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,400
partner you might assume that you then need to have it in the same place with another.

306
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,960
And I really think that that is unfair to both you and your partners because different

307
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,120
relationships have different needs.

308
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,440
You're applying parameters that that person was not involved in creating.

309
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:43,520
Yeah.

310
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,120
And we have a very cute story about...

311
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,840
Oh, how you can have different... your boundaries can shift depending on the circumstances?

312
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,560
Yes, yes.

313
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:54,560
Okay.

314
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:55,560
You may proceed.

315
00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:03,920
Because when you and I met, I had a boundary in place that I, when I met people, especially

316
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:11,640
on dating apps online that I didn't know prior to that, that I would meet them in a public

317
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,580
place for the first time.

318
00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:20,000
Just to kind of like, you know, I have some boundaries around the safety of my home and

319
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,920
especially the safety of Sunny.

320
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:22,920
Right.

321
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,600
And you are the only person that I've shifted that boundary for.

322
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:28,600
Right.

323
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,000
So when we first met, you invited me to your home.

324
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,000
Yes.

325
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,360
That was our first meeting.

326
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,840
So I invited you to my porch and I felt comfortable doing that because I could tell that this

327
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:46,280
was a unique connection and I was honoring the uniqueness of it and I was aware that

328
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:52,000
it felt right to me to do it differently than I'd ever done before.

329
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,840
And that doesn't mean that anyone after you now should feel like they have a right to

330
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,360
meet me at my house the first time we meet.

331
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:06,760
You know, that is a thing that I can continue to decide if I'm willing to shift that boundary

332
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:07,760
ever again.

333
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:14,760
See, I love that example not just because I got special treatment, but I just still

334
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:25,920
appreciate the allowance for taking each individual circumstance and interaction on its own merit.

335
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:26,920
Yeah.

336
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:34,960
And allowing for, you know, this is a completely different set of parameters and circumstances.

337
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,480
Right.

338
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,960
So I can also see where this could be a struggle point for some people who are feeling insecurities

339
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,000
with a particular partner if they notice that that partner has different boundaries with

340
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,480
another partner than the boundaries they offer for them.

341
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,480
Oh my gosh, yeah.

342
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,120
I can think of a few examples of that.

343
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:53,120
Yeah, yeah.

344
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:54,260
That's tricky.

345
00:17:54,260 --> 00:17:59,600
So something that I think often comes up, and this is when I most often hear it mentioned

346
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:08,400
in like popular culture and the general cultural consciousness is when a rule can be misrepresented

347
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:09,400
as a boundary.

348
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,400
Right.

349
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,400
Sneaky rule.

350
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:12,400
Rules masquerading.

351
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,400
Nightlife.

352
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,360
Rules masquerading as boundaries.

353
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:21,720
So example, if you have sex with anyone else, I will no longer offer a barrier-less sex.

354
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:22,720
Right.

355
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,080
So when you say that, you could present it as, that's just my boundary.

356
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:32,240
If you have sex with anyone else, I don't want to have sex without barriers with you

357
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,000
anymore.

358
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,360
But if you think about it, who is that really controlling?

359
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:38,360
Right.

360
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:40,560
Who is the person that's going to change their behavior?

361
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:41,560
Right.

362
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:42,560
It's your partner.

363
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,960
It's the person you're presenting that to.

364
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,560
You're extending control outside of your sphere of self.

365
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:48,560
Right.

366
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,360
So I think it's a really good example of one that's tricky.

367
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:54,760
It's so easy to say, well, that's just my boundary.

368
00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:01,920
I'm just trying to feel safe and that's how I feel safe having sex without barriers.

369
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,800
But if you shifted that to the boundary we talked about earlier where you say, I'm happy

370
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,640
to have sex without barriers with you as long as you let me know the next time you add a

371
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,880
new partner, that shift in phrasing makes all the difference.

372
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:17,880
Right.

373
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:18,880
It's still tricky though.

374
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,440
It's very gray area, squishy topic.

375
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,440
Yeah.

376
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,440
I mean, it could amount to the same thing.

377
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:29,120
It could end up being that in practice, if that partner adds any new partners, you stop

378
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,480
having sex with them without barriers.

379
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:33,480
Yeah.

380
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,360
In practice, it could look exactly the same.

381
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:42,320
One thing that I've tried to explore as I'm crafting boundaries and trying to explore

382
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,800
the reasons behind them and where they're coming from is to imagine how I would feel

383
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:53,680
if a partner crosses that boundary or if I would need to change something based on their

384
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,120
behavior, how would I feel about that?

385
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:02,940
The way that I imagine my reaction tells me if I am in some ways trying to control their

386
00:20:02,940 --> 00:20:07,880
behavior or if it really is just about me and me addressing my own needs.

387
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,080
Oh, that just hit me in my tummy.

388
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,080
Really?

389
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,080
How so?

390
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,080
Oh my gosh.

391
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,560
It felt like a brain hack to me.

392
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:16,560
I'm like, wow.

393
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:22,080
Okay, so I imagine how I would feel if challenged on that boundary.

394
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,080
Yeah.

395
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:28,600
And my reaction kind of gives me a clue about if really what I want to do is just wish they

396
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:29,600
would behave differently.

397
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:30,600
Oh, oh.

398
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:31,600
Yeah.

399
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:32,600
I got tingled.

400
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:33,600
You just got me good.

401
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:34,600
Yikes.

402
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:35,600
Yeah.

403
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:36,600
Oh my God.

404
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:37,600
I'm going to remember that one.

405
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:38,600
That's a new, that's in my toolbox.

406
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,600
Do we have a sound effect for your toolbox?

407
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:43,600
No.

408
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:44,600
Dang.

409
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,520
That's really hoping.

410
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,520
No sound effects.

411
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,480
Remember we discussed we're not going to do the cheesy radio show morning zoo type stuff.

412
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,480
Pew pew pew pew.

413
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,280
Pew pew pew.

414
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,120
Toolbox time.

415
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:04,960
Wow.

416
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,560
So rules versus boundaries.

417
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:08,560
Ta-da.

418
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,560
The episode.

419
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:19,480
You guys, he just did like this amazing like somersault into a double roll.

420
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,640
I'm so talented.

421
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:22,960
It's a tragedy.

422
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:23,960
You missed it.

423
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,720
One quick thing before we let you go.

424
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,580
We're doing the crowdsource audience participation question again.

425
00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:30,720
What we need you to do is answer the question.

426
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,040
What makes you feel secure in a relationship?

427
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,400
You can record your answer or write to us at podcasts and mindfulpoly.com.

428
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,280
We'd love to hear your responses.

429
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:40,280
Can't wait.

430
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,440
Season one crowdsource question for inspiration.

431
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,440
Episode seven.

432
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,440
Season one.

433
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,320
Check it out.

434
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,280
I'm so surprised you didn't say you're a tool.

435
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,960
It's not my style.

436
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:00,960
No.

437
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:11,360
No.