Did you bring the hard drive over? I did. All
right, go. It's plugged in and recording. He
had to go all the way back home. All the way.
Was it a clean hard drive? No, it was not. We
made space. Chuck came in. Look at you just rolling
in with all these judgmental questions. Well,
I mean, he was right. Of course, I know. Chuck
came out of the podcast room and was like, fee,
five, full, flum, somebody didn't clean the damn
hard drive. I don't remember any of that. No.
He asked very nicely. Exactly. All right. And
you had a pretty long week, actually. I mean,
Jeff had one, but for different reasons. I landed
at 1 .30 today. In the morning? No. In the afternoon?
In the afternoon. And you were where? I was in
Albuquerque, New Mexico. For work? You were there
for what, one? One and a half days? Just a day,
yeah. I mean, yesterday and today, yeah. How'd
it go? Went great. Work is work. Non -stop. Well,
it's Dudes Like Us podcast, the first half. What
is today's date? Today is March 19th. It's Thursday.
We normally do it Tuesday, but for this particular
one, because Jeff was out gallivanting in Fredericksburg.
And it's spring break. Yes. And it was a day
that worked for our very special guest today.
I was thankful for that, too, because you're
not the easiest person to get in touch with sometimes.
And the fact that you responded. When I got the
email and said, accepted, I was like, oh, fuck
yeah, finally. God bless. Well, check us out
on Instagram. Check us out on Facebook. Check
us out on YouTube, TikTok. We're on most things
to listen to. Go to rss .com forward slash dudes
like us podcast. And it takes you to like 20
different. We're on Apple, Spotify. Everything.
Well, dudes, I got some Sean. I'm Paul. I'm Jeff.
And I'm Robert. There you go. And thank you,
Mr. Chuck, our producer, staying on top of shit
today. We've got a guest, a special guest from
Ironwood Republic, Mr. Robert Licorice. What's
up, guys? Hey, man. Well, you know what? Thanks
for joining us, man. Yeah, this is exciting.
We've been trying to - We've been waiting for
a while. Yeah, to get you on here so we can talk
about your stuff, your story, and all that good
stuff. I looked back earlier today at the first
email you sent me because I was like, oh, make
sure I'm showing up at the right time. 2010.
I was like, oh, boy. We have been trying for
a while. Yeah, that's all right. We get busy.
Life happens. And we had a lot of life happen
in the last year or so. So things get delayed,
put off. But the matter is we're all together
here now. Yeah. Yeah. And it allows us to build
the expectations for this podcast to be like
astronomical. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Huge expectations,
man. In reality. The bourbon just gets better
over time is really what it does. It does. I
was waiting for it to get better. Extra aging.
Yeah. Nice. Well, we've got a lot of things to
talk about. Iron Root Republic itself has been
just a venture. It's been a whirlwind for you.
We've seen you on several different tours up
there at the distillery itself. And you broke
ground in some additional space for you guys
to store more and amplify your production. Huge
growth. Giant growth for us. It's kind of crazy
that it's finally come to fruition. It's been
years that we've been working on it. Sure. It's
always nice for it to finally be done. Yeah,
excellent. All right, so you're up in Denison.
Denison, Texas. Denison, Texas. Denison. Denison's
the other way. Denison. Denison. So what's that?
Well, because I was worried I was going to get
it wrong, but I knew I had it right. Yeah, you
just drive to see Oklahoma, and then you hit
the brakes. That's the rule. I got to tell you,
though, it's been a pain in the ass the first
couple times I've been out there at a distillery
because of the construction they've been doing
out there. Oh, Lord. Is that done yet? Not even
close. God bless. Oh, we should exit right now.
Nah, man, it's right up the street. God bless
it. We should have exited. Damn it. And that's
on the Texas side, obviously. Yeah, Highway 75
is a giant mess in Sherman and Denison right
now. Wow. Are they just widening it? Is that
what they're working on? Yeah, from what I'm
hearing, they're actually trying to make it Interstate
45 all the way up to Tulsa. 45? Yeah, so it goes
from Houston to Tulsa. That makes sense. Right,
because 45 ends in downtown Dallas and becomes
75. And 45 picks up again in Oklahoma? No, that's
it. It ends? Oh, it just ends. So it's 75 that
goes all the way up, I guess. All right. Yeah.
Interesting. Why would it just stop like that?
I don't know. The road wasn't big enough for
us, I guess. I don't know. But what does it mean
to make it? They're having to do construction
to make it worthy or qualify as an interstate?
Right. Really? It has to have so many lanes and
so much infrastructure and stuff behind it. So
75 is not... Interesting. Well, I guess it's
not an interstate because it's just... It's a
highway, I thought. Just a highway. So it's US
Highway 75. Oh, I guess I never realized that.
Yeah. I guess they can always make it another
tollway, those assholes. They probably will.
I'm so sick of that shit. I mean, look, it's
already been paid for. We should shut that shit
down. I mean, it's ridiculous. They're never
going to do it. There's also already an I -75.
It runs through Cincinnati. It goes all the way
from Michigan all the way down to Florida. So
there's already an I -75. So maybe they don't
reuse numbers, do they? I don't think so. I would
call it a 45, though. Well, I mean, you're talking
about interstate. That's why they'd call it 45.
That's why there couldn't be an interstate 75.
75 is U .S. Highway 75. Yeah, the 75 goes right
through Cincinnati. We would take it all the
time down to Florida. With the blue sign. So
it's interesting. The numbers. I forget exactly
how it goes, but it's like increments of five
and even and odd. East, west, and north, south.
Exactly. Yeah. Evens east, west, and odds are
north, south. But I think the three digits are
the outer belts, right? Yeah, a loop. Loops,
is that what they are? So you got 635. Except
for loop 12. See, they always got to fuck it
up with something. Oh, damn it. That's not interstate.
012? Oh, okay. You see, Robert, how this podcast
goes. Did you think that we were going to be
talking about interstates in the United States?
You act like I haven't listened before. I know
exactly what I was getting myself into. Okay,
okay. And I realized I didn't bring the board
in here. Let me go grab it while you guys are
talking. You have one job. So a recent award
diamond. So I downloaded some AI stuff. I mean,
we know a lot about you, but I don't have all
the different factoids. But Hubris Corn Whiskey's
winning streak. On route, Hubris recently secured
the category championship title for the best
American corn at the World Whiskey Awards in
2026. This marks the eighth time winning a world's
best or U .S. best corn whiskey title, solidifying
it as a gold standard in the category. What say
you? I agree with the computers in this one.
The overlords are correct with their assessment.
When were the, so it's 2026, so obviously it
happened to happen in January or February, I
guess, right? Yeah, it happened in February.
February, okay. How awesome is that? Just to
get pounded nonstop with accolades. It's, you
know, and that one's been really cool because
that was, the Corn Whiskey Award was the first
one we won and it actually won it back in 2017
was the first time we won. So being like essentially
12 years old and having won it uh you know eight
times is kind of crazy that you know to have
that and uh it's that was like the first time
we knew like oh maybe we're actually on to something
here right sure we're actually good it's not
just my mom telling me i'm good it's somebody
else mom stop it that's what our moms say about
the podcast i mean mom and dad listen all the
time yeah it's the best out there who's that
joe rogan yeah wow nothing compared to us wow
delusion runs rampant jesus so uh So let's do
a startup. Let's get kind of a background history,
the Cliff Notes version. Your quick story, were
you the lawyer or was that your brother? Lawyer
is a very strong word for what I am. Were you
on the path to that or something? You both as
a family made a business decision. I have graduated
from law school. That's as far as I will go with
that statement. Yeah, you look at... My God,
geez, it's been so many years now. My brother,
he's four years older than me. He's got multiple
degrees in engineering. He's got a master's degree
in biomedical engineering. I was working on a
second master's in mechanical engineering when
I talked him off the ledge to come join me in
making whiskey. And kind of the idea started
back years previously. We were at a family reunion
in Washington State, wandered into this tiny
distillery that had just opened in like, it's
like 2008. And my dad just looked at us like,
no, this is actually what you guys should do
when you retire. This would be really fun. And
I was like, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, retire.
Exactly. Well, when you've gone through life
and you want to just sit down and hang out with
family, it'd be great. And I'm like, yeah. So
getting ready to graduate from law school, I
decided that was not what I wanted to do with
my life. So I decided to kind of announce to
my family at Christmas dinner before I graduated
that May that I was graduating, but I wasn't
going to practice law. I wasn't going to do that.
And my dad, in order to break the tension at
Christmas dinner, because trying to make it all
jovial and fun. Yeah. You picked a great moment
for it. Oh, yeah. Hey, they can't get too mad
at you at Christmas dinner. Mom's going to -
Good point. She might drink a little bit more
wine than she was planning on, but other than
that, you're going to be pretty good. The hell
you are. At least your dad gets lucky. So he
was like, what are you going to do? You're going
to go start that distillery now? And in my brain,
I'm like, I'm young. I'm dumb right now. I can
eat ramen noodles every night if I need to. And
if I'm going to take 10 years, 15 years to make
whiskey, I want to actually survive long enough
to drink that whiskey. So might as well do it
now and not wait till I'm 65 or 70 years old
to start. Love it. That's kind of started us
on a path and went and interned at a bunch of
distilleries across the country. That's what
it was. Yeah, I was trying to find out the influence
with the cognac portion of it. And you went to
France, right? So, yeah, I've spent time over
in cognac. I did some distilling over there,
which was really, really fun. But the cognac
influence actually started here in the States.
Through the interning, I actually fell in with
a gentleman. His name is Hubert Germain Rabanne,
who was a master cognac distiller that had moved
over to the United States in the 70s and started
distilling. took his still from cognac and brought
it over to california started distilling there
and he actually is the same one who taught nancy
fraley uh he's uh really instrumental in american
spirits he's kind of a lesser known person but
really really instrumental um just amazing talent
amazing like he's very philosophical teacher
as well um but kind of like learning from him
just kind of really inspired my brother myself
to kind of like take on and really pursue a lot
of kind of more of the French tradition for distilling.
Yeah. From still choices to kind of maturation
approaches, all those things. And that's why
we ultimately ended up back in Denison, Texas,
because Denison's sister city is with Cognac.
Yes. Because of that crazy story. For those of
you guys who don't know, a gentleman who lived
in our town actually saved the French wine industry
using Texas grape roots. And so the folks in
Cognac, they referred to. The roots from Texas
is the iron grape roots, so that's actually where
the name of the distillery comes from. All right.
There we go. Perfect. Ladies and gentlemen, our
producer, Mr. Chuck, sitting on top of stuff.
Yes. Check's perusing the lunch list for tomorrow.
I thought he was going to play some little video
about Cognac France. I was going to be really
impressed, and immediately I was not. The Whopper.
That is French for burger, I believe. I believe
that's what it is. That's good stuff, man. That's
hilarious. All right, continue. And I was going
to make the joke that we saved France more than
once. Yeah. No, there you go. That's true. Keep
on helping them out. I find that the whole wine
thing, because again, my wife and I are, we like.
drinking wine as well. And I love that story
about how the Texas roots specifically up there
in Denton saved the French wine industry. Cause
French wine is, you know, you would think is
considered some of the best out there. Yeah,
for sure. And, uh, I think it's fascinating that,
uh, Texas saved that whole, whole industry, whole
industry. Damn right. When, when was that back
in the 19 or 18? Late 1800s is kind of when it
happened. Cause you had, well, basically, unfortunately
what happens, we actually, We accidentally had
transferred some bugs that had this disease called
Phylloxera from the United States. We transferred
it over to Europe. So we caused the problem.
We created the problem. And then we solved it.
But we don't have to talk about the creation
part. It was our fault. We were trying to do
trade, so why not? But was it particular types
of wine or all wines or just a certain type of
grape, right? In a very generic sense, I think
the number that I've seen most often was they
lost about 80 % of the French grapes. You're
talking Wardo, Burgundy, Cognac, Champagne roll
hit really hard. And it was a fungus? It's a
little aphid that was carrying a disease. No
kidding. And they didn't have any predators for
the aphid, so it just kind of spread like wildfire.
So giving them the Texas grapes had to change
everything for them. Because grapes are everything.
It's the root system. So they actually graft
their grapes on top of the Texas grape roots.
So the same French grapes, our root system. Right.
It's our support, their flavor. Iron root. Yeah.
So when I go over to France, probably the next
year or so, I'm going to say, you know, this
is really Texas wine. Oh, jeez. They would love
that, Jeff. And you know they love Americans,
right? They completely love them. Like all the
Americans that come hoarding off of the cruise
ships, they're like, Americans are here, yay!
And then all of them should say, your wine sucks.
It would not even be alive if it weren't for
us. Well, the reason I find it fascinating is
because... You don't hear about that. The first
time I heard it was when we were up at your distillery
and you were talking about it. I just found it
fascinating. We've been to some wine classes
and stuff like that here at some of the Total
Wines and stuff and they don't mention anything
like that. I feel like asking the question sometimes.
They may not even know. That's huge history,
man. I think it is because the wine industry
is very, very large. French ones, like I said,
the image of, you know, some of the best wines
out there. The best, for sure. But specifically,
I mean, it wasn't the whole wine industry, was
it? Or was it like specific grapes? Oh, 80 %?
That's what he said. Oh, French grapes. When
you look at Phylloxera, it impacted really most
of the world. Really, South America has been
insulated and didn't need that to happen, thank
goodness. It didn't really reach there. But it
actually impacted almost all the other parts
of the planet. So now do they do all the other...
Countries use grapestock from Texas. Not necessarily.
They've been breeding and they've been working
through different programs in more modern day.
But historically, that's the first thing that
really helped them save the industry. So who
was that person? His name was T .V. Munson or
Thomas Volney Munson. Interesting. You're not
going to find that on a trivia. And he lived
in? In Denison. In Denison. And that's where
he did all of his research and everything. In
the late 1800s. Yeah. It is, and I agree with
Jeff. It is fascinating. I mean, I recall you
talking about it, and at the time I was like,
oh, that's cool, but it was like one ear out
the other. I don't recall it until you just now
re -mentioned it. Well, I mean, how profound
that is. And it's profound that they didn't give
us kudos. I'm sure they did, didn't they? They
did. They gave us a medal or something. Didn't
they give us the Statue of Liberty? He was...
He will give you a root. Thanks for saving our
grapes. Here's a statue. Statue of Liberty. Lord.
No, they named him to the French Legion of Honor.
He got quite a few awards for doing it. Nice.
And then for us, the mayor from Cognac, a lot
of master distillers actually come and visit
us every few years. That's outstanding. That
must be fun, too. It's a lot of fun because they
come and then obviously we got to go check on
the barrels in the back, make sure they're still
good. Right. There's a trust factor. Once you've
tasted enough, generally you start feeling pretty
good. And then they're like, hey, come visit
us in Cognac. And I'm like, deal. I will take
you up on that one. Oh, for sure. But they love
your stuff, I'm sure. Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Distillers, there's a lot of love for going in
and tasting and jumping and going through all
that. I've never met a distiller that's like,
no, I don't drink that. It's more of like, I
want to understand why this tastes the way it
does. Well, Iron Root is, you guys have, I've
never heard of another distillery that uses a
variety of the corn that you guys use. All local
corn. I mean, when we sat in that tour and you
broke out with the red, yellow, purple, blue,
all these different freaking corns, I was kind
of like. Wasn't there a blood corn or something
like that? Bloody Butcher is one of them, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, you've seen them
before. Actually, you see them on the tables
for Thanksgiving, but you're like, yeah, it's
just decoration. No, it's freaking corn. I've
never really seen that before. I'll admit that
as well. I didn't realize that those were real.
I thought that was just stupid. Like painted?
In the fact that you guys... The fact that you
guys have harnessed that and used it as a tool
to create the products that you guys have, I
find that fascinating. What a different taste
that Iron Root has compounded with the styles
that you guys pulled from the cognac business
and complemented with the types of corn up there
in the local denison. I think that's fascinating.
I love it that you have partnered with local
farmers. to grow exactly the corn. And they would
never do that on a regular basis because they
probably don't have a market for it. Yeah, it
wouldn't have been profitable at all. Exactly.
It would have been great. We grew it. Congratulations.
Right. But what's been fun is that, especially
with bloody butcher corn, it's actually grown
beyond just our use. So they actually will grow
it for a lot more commercial uses now. um since
we started which is using for what now the uh
the but yeah it's used for a lot of culinary
uses uh there's there was a restaurant in mckinney
there was it was down in dallas for a little
while called rye that they'd had a dish that
was they called cornucopia that was just 100
corn but it was like one of the coolest dishes
i've ever had it was the bloody butcher corn
made into grits it had blue corn chips on top
of it and it was warm and then they put a yellow
corn ice cream on top of it It was absolutely
delicious. Is that what you had at the tour that
one time? No, that would have just been random
cornbreads that I made at home for you to try.
So these corns, because I know when we took that
tour, you were showing us, because I think the
purple have a lot of them. Or are you talking
about the ice cream? I was talking about the
ice cream. Now, that's a really wonderful place
down here in McKinney that actually makes that
ice cream for us. Yeah, that was... I went back
for thirds. That's good. Shocker. He came back
like this. Total shocker. So good. Yes. Well,
when we took that class, I half -assedly kind
of looked because I would be interested to actually
buy some of this corn to eat at home, but I don't
know where anywhere like this would care. I've
never been to a Whole Foods. Maybe they have
something like this, but can you even buy this
in a store? Most stores, maybe there are some
health food stores or occasionally places like
Whole Foods will have these things. Most of the
time, you're ordering it online. A lot of these
corns, you wouldn't necessarily eat corn on the
cob style. You can, for sure. But most of them,
you're going to dry and you'll turn into grits
or something like that, make cornbread, corn
flour, stuff like that. Is it too bitter, too
hearty? Yeah, what is it? No, it's just much
higher in protein, so it's not as sweet. So if
you're used to eating like big sweet corn on
the cob, it's not going to taste like that. It's
going to be a lot healthier for you, but it's
very different flavors. Dude, protein's all the
craze right now. Yeah, dude. Yeah, 100%. And
if you start doing corn products that are boosted
in protein, people will jump on it. What if I
wanted to buy a 12 -pack of these ears? Corns?
Yeah, just like, you know, whatever, a variety.
And I want to eat them after I cook them and
just kind of get an experience. Is that something?
It can do through your folks? No. Most of them,
they're not going to sell it in that kind of
method. They dry it and they put it in bags and
sell it. It's already big hitter for you. Before
it hits you. For sure. So you'd have to go straight
to the - You'd have to go to the farms for it
directly. I see. Because the purple has some
kind of health benefit to it. I can't remember.
Was it antioxidants or something to it, right?
Yeah. So the purple corn that we use, it originally
came from South America, from Peru. It was a
Peruvian corn. that the Incans use. If you Google
chicha morado, it's the corn they use to make
that. Really cool corn, but it is very high in
antioxidants. It has more antioxidants than a
lot of green teas actually do. Go figure. Now,
again, by the time I'm done with it, you're not
going to get those benefits, but when you eat
it, you leach all the good stuff out of it. Exactly.
The yeast uses all that stuff. Listen to this
right here. The purple and blue corn contains
high levels of anthocyanins. Anthocyanins, I
think. Antocyanins, like that, pigments, acting
as a strong antioxidant. Purple corn specifically
may help combat obesity, diabetes, and cancer
-reducing inflammation. I mean, that's a sell
right there. Yeah, sure. The obesity part, you
know, I would love to be able to. I don't have
diabetes yet, you know, if that won't. I mean,
they got a list here of all the different benefits.
Look at that one. That's crazy. How the hell?
Have you tasted that? Oh, yeah. No, the Chicha
Morado drink is a non -alcoholic drink they make
in Peru. It's like a traditional drink, but it's
really tasty. And it has rum. It's got the sweetness
of it. Hey, let's go. You can have whatever you
want. Let's go. But it's absolutely gorgeous,
and it tastes really, really good. Interesting.
Golly, man. So I remember - It's refreshing.
It's grape juice. Incan ladies, they chew on
something. And they have a lot of red mouths.
But it's not that. They're chewing on some sort
of... I'm not sure what they're chewing on. It's
actually a problem. It rots their teeth. But
I don't think it's the corn. But it's that color.
It could be historically. I know a lot of the
South American, Central American cultures, they
would do that because it would... Your saliva
would break down the corn or whatever you're
drinking, and it would make it so you could ferment
it and do stuff like that. In Mexico, there's
certain beverages that they make that way. Actually,
it's like a fermented corn beer, but they use
it by chewing on it. I forget what those are
called. Yeah, I just remember that being a very
interesting thing. They always had these purple
lips and purple mouths, and they were always
chewing on something. I don't know what it was.
Maybe it was that corn. I don't know. I know
in Asia, especially like Taiwan, that region,
they have what are called beetle nuts, which
are kind of like, they use them kind of like
tobacco, but they'll pop the beetle nuts in there
and that would be really red. And that was kind
of intimidating to see. And where was that? It
was in Taiwan, at least where I had it. I know
it's all over that kind of region, but it's a
really cool thing. And it gives you like, it
gives you like warms your body up. You like feel
like this warmth kind of buzz feel. It's really
kind of a cool. Psychoactive. Yeah. Interesting.
Collinogenic. Interesting. So are you guys, imagine,
ooh, look at those teeth. Yeah, see what I'm
talking about? That is actually what I'm talking
about. Maybe they do have that same type of nut
in Peru. I don't know. Oh, goodness. Peru. Peru.
Peru. Yeah, I'm fluent. So how much of the fun
and the day is spent on just experimenting with
new corn, new yeast, or whatever? I mean, because...
What I'm impressed with is you guys seem to have
a lot of experimentation that turns into some
really fine whiskeys and bourbon. You know, it
varies from kind of year to year, depending on
how much I'm containing my brother. He's the
mad scientist. He is very much the mad scientist.
He's kind of the crazy one that wants to try
all the things. So I have to be like, well, we
still need some of our normal stuff, too. You're
like, let's perfect what we're focusing on. The
ADD gets us sometimes, but I'd say about 15 %
of what we do in a year has some sort of experimentation
from it from us, either trying a new yeast, trying
a different corn species, a little bit different
length of fermentation, different barrel size,
different char levels, different wood types.
Again, we're always playing around and kind of
trying to tweak what we do. How much of that
translates into something that ends up in a bottle?
I mean, we end up using almost everything. Oh,
really? Knock on wood on this one. You mean for
commercial release? Yeah. There's never been
a barrel that we have never used commercially.
Oh, wow. Yeah. So everything's turned out. So
you haven't had one. You're always like, wow,
that one didn't work this time. Yeah. Don't get
me wrong. There's ones I like better than others.
Sure. It definitely happens. But generally, by
the time we get to the... to actually doing like
a distillation of something, we've kind of messed
with it enough to kind of have an idea of, yeah,
we're going to be okay. Okay, so you're doing
small batches up until the point where you're
good enough to move forward with it. We're testing
out, a lot of times I'll make, with corns, I'll
make new cornbreads and like taste them against
the other cornbread, like regular yellow cornbread.
Okay. Just to see kind of what flavor differences
can we see. In a cornbread? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And
that translates to... A mash bill. It doesn't
translate to the flavor of the whiskey, but will
tell me if there's going to be something new,
different, interesting about it. And then the
way we typically use the heirloom corns, we don't
do like a mash bill that's 100 % that corn. Right.
A lot of them, they don't have enough sugars
to them to like have a good yield. So we'll use
it in a certain percentage. And based on kind
of our experience now, we know kind of like,
are we going to use this for 5 % of the mash
bill, 10%, 15%, 20 % to kind of know. where we
can experience those flavors, but also still
have something that's still recognizably whiskey.
It's an equation. That is interesting as hell.
It really is. So you break down, so you figure
out all the way down to the small ingredients
and the sugar content and this and that of every
corn to know how that's going to feed into the
recipe. Exactly, 100%. How do you do that? I
mean... So some of it's experience now that we've
been doing it. Some of it's whoops. But I mean,
when you're measuring sugar content, there's
got to be equipment for that. So a lot of times,
yeah, there's definitely equipment. So whenever
you mash and you cook a corn or cook any grain,
there's actually a tool you can stick in it,
and it'll actually read the level of sugar that
you put in it. Beautiful. I figured something
like that. So we know how much can we ferment,
how much alcohol is there going to be. And then
when we're looking at kind of, all right, how
much sugar there is and then kind of what flavors,
even when you start cooking the corn and tasting
it, kind of seeing like, is this a flavor that
would be really good as a nuanced flavor? Or
is it something that's going to be a really big
base flavor? And so that's kind of like as we
start judging the flavors that we start seeing,
how we're going to use it. And even like if we
make something that's 25 % of an heirloom corn,
and then as it's aging, we're like, you know,
it's too much of that certain flavor. We'll blend
that barrel in with other barrels to get to the
kind of the right amount of what we want of that
particular flavor. Right. So you keep playing
with it until it works. Everything's really done
on the blending table at the end of the day,
for sure. That is fascinating. Yeah. And then
on top of that, you take blends from other distilleries
and do partnerships with other. How do you have
time to do all that too? Well, I mean, one of
the things for us is, and we didn't start doing
that until after 2020. and because 2020 is when
harbinger won its really big award it was named
best bourbon which we can talk about what you
know the awards and all that stuff on that end
but it really blew blew up for us like again
like we went from like having to go out there
and actually like sell product and taste customers
and convince people to try this new and really
different thing to we had people now starting
to come to us to wanting to try something new
and something different And so for us, we went
from, you know, we were making 100 to 120 barrels
a year was kind of what we were making. And all
of a sudden, we just didn't have enough whiskey.
What a nice problem to have. It really was. But
still stressful. Yeah. I mean, because you're
looking at, like, how do I grow incrementally?
Like, is the enthusiasm for what we're doing
going to continue going forward? Because, you
know, if I all of a sudden jumped to making,
you know, 1 ,000 barrels. And then everybody
went away. Yeah, in five years when that whiskey's
ready, everyone's still going to be there. It
seems like that's kind of a common issue right
now with the whole whiskey market. I mean, people
are not drinking as much right now. There are
some whiskey vendors out there that aren't making
it. No, 100%. It is a really kind of fickle.
I mean, and the market's always moved in cycles
of more and less and more and less. But you went
with COVID in that time when people were just
home. we were just sitting home drinking. And
so obviously drinking went up pretty drastically
during that period of time. And now we're coming
off of that. So it's one of those things that
are we, we're still, the consumption rate is
still significantly above 2019. Okay. So that's
good to hear, but it's not as high as you were
in 2024, which was kind of the peak really of
kind of on it. You're seeing things kind of dip
down now. Oh, that's good to know. I was thinking
that the market was, It was stalling, essentially.
Well, and to your point, the younger generation,
they have other options now to, you know, I mean,
people drink for different reasons, right? A
lot of it's coping, right? Stress, anxiety to
calm you down, you know, be relaxed. For sure.
Well, they have other options now. A lot of it's
marijuana, to be honest, the younger generation.
The THC stuff. Yep, the THC stuff. So that's
really, for the younger generation, that's cutting
into drinking. Are you seeing that? So what's
really interesting is you've kind of seen in
2023, there came out this big study that was
Gen Z is not drinking anywhere near. They're
only about 40 % were drinking, whereas most generations
are right around 70 -ish percent. I think most
like 71, 72 % is what you're seeing. And so in
2023, they did this big study where they went
on to college campuses and they had all these
guys asking these kids, these 18, 19, 20 -year
-olds. Do you drink alcohol? Are you drinking
multiple times a week? And the results that they
got back were horrifying because it was only
about 40 % were responding that they had drank
in the last six months. What a bunch of idiots.
I think our kids were definitely in that 40%.
What's wrong with these kids? Our kids were making
up the difference. Yeah, mine still are. Thank
you, boys. Now, if it makes you feeling better.
They did another study last year, last June,
and the study came back, and it turned out that
the methodology that they were using for that
2023 study wasn't really great because they had
a bunch of older guys wandering around college
campuses asking 18 -year -olds, You like popsicles?
Well, sure. Then you need to come on down to
the cellar. Do you drink alcohol? How much do
you drink? Right, right. And I'm an undercover
officer, so please tell me. Yeah, the responses
weren't exactly accurate, is what I'd say. And
it was outside of churches when people were coming
out? Yeah, pretty much. Right. So it turned out
the most recent study now is about 70 % of it.
Oh, okay, good. Oh, thank God they're drinking.
Now, you are seeing more, I would say, varied.
So they will drink alcohol, but they'll also
do THC. They'll also do some other things. So
you are seeing... a little bit less of just alcohol
in general, but it's other stuff being mixed
in there, if that makes sense. The White Claws
and the whatever that category is. Yeah, the
White Claws. Shelters. Shelters. This is crazy.
Now, the crazy thing with that, kind of the research
that came out from this last year and then kind
of like all the purchasing kind of studies was
that for the first time in like 70 years, liquor
was actually the number one consumed alcohol
in the United States. At 25? We passed beer.
For the first time ever. Or the first time since
like the 50s or 60s. Thanks, Tyler Mulvaney.
I think we've helped us. You take the beer industry,
huh? So wine's staying pretty even, kind of the
percentage that they typically, it's like 18
to 20%. But yeah, the beer is what's really taking
a hit right now. I'll tell you what, before bourbon,
Sean and I were really into the craft beer scene,
like big time. Yeah. And I had a fridge full
of them downstairs, and I put on 20 pounds. And
I was like, I'm done. I have to stop. And I don't
really drink beer anymore. I have a hard time
drinking beer now, strange enough. I was able
to drink all those really rich, strong beers.
IPAs, right? Big old stouts. Stouts. I almost
have to choke those down now whenever I have
one. So I drink a light beer now occasionally
when I have one, but we used to be in that a
lot. We'd go. Instead of the bourbon, we were
stocking up on craft beer. Yeah, we would go
shopping for it. We'd hit the different beer
stores. We'd hit the different bars and be like,
what's the biggest point? And then we found a
barley wine made by Bigfoot. I don't know. It's
called Bigfoot barley wine made by Belgium Ale,
I think. I don't remember. And it's 12 points
on that, 14 points. But the quadruple ales, I
loved them. I mean, we just simply can't drink
them because it's... you might as well just glue
it to your waist. Yeah, exactly. And that's what
you've seen, and that's why liquor has really
kind of been raised above that. Well, we enjoy
the hell out of it. We enjoy the hell out of
Iron Root. Oh, yeah. You've seen what we've got
going out there. We are running a campaign to
really experiment and taste everything. I mean,
we had... Jeff brought some, it's not tequila,
but it's tequila from Hawaii, which was excellent.
It can't be called tequila, but it's made with
agave and stuff there. We sampled that Vixen
sweet wine. Oh, yeah. That was really good, by
the way. Was it a fortified? No, it was a distilled
wine. Yeah. It was excellent. It was fascinating.
It wasn't a fortified wine. It was a distilled
wine. It had a very unique taste, and it was
super good. And the newest and latest, the American
single malts is now what we're picking up. But
we are really starting to enjoy that category.
And now, what say you on your Iron Root single
malts? I mean, are you guys producing them? Am
I ignorant here? We haven't released any. But
we do have some that's around six years old at
the moment. Very nice. It'll be another few years
before you see that. We have, over the years,
occasionally dabbled into a little bit of barley
distillation as well. So six years, that's the
Vixen red wine liquor. It was very different.
It was excellent. I wanted to buy a case after
that. It's a fortified wine. I love it. I think
it's Russian or something. Where would we even
buy that? You have to buy it. Georgia? It's Georgian,
yeah. Florida. Some place in Florida carries
it. Anyway, six years you've aged it. You're
still thinking three to four. So you're thinking
almost 10 years for the single malt? Yeah, we
approached it in a little bit different kind
of mindset than like Balcones or Andalusia or
some of our other kind of friends in the American
single malt area is that we really wanted to
take our time when we were making it. And so
we distilled it in a way that we intentionally
did not intend to release it before it was eight
years old. So it could be eight, it could be
10, it could be 12. By the time it's really ready
to go, I don't know yet. So when you do an experiment
like that, a project, I'll call it a project.
Because that's really what it is. I mean, how
many barrels are you talking for a project? Typically
about eight. Eight? Okay. And what would that
yield as far as bottles -ish? I mean, it always
depends on what proof you end up bottling that.
But over a decade in Texas, we'll end up with
about 100 to 120 bottles per barrel. Okay. That's
a lot of loss, man. It is. And it's really at
the end of the day. That's a vicious loss. Which
I assume the single malt is going to be excellent.
In fact, I can't wait. I mean, what do we got?
How many more years do we have? Two more years?
Between two to six more years, depending on.
We've got a couple other. malts that will come
out before that like we did a collaboration with
tupps that will come out another um uh we got
another brewery that we've also done a collaboration
with um that we've got some kind of fun really
different those are not i would say traditional
style malts like the like the single malt we
were talking about but uh we have some stuff
we've done with malt that's a non -traditional
that will come out before that i'm enjoying them
you know i've got so we were gifted some And
the Balcones was a complete surprise. You know,
how great some of their stuff tastes. We enjoyed
the Rumble, the High Proof Hazmat Rumble. That
wasn't a single malt, though. It's not, but I
still enjoyed it. The Balcones. Such a cool,
different spirit, Rumble. Yeah. It's sad that
they don't make it anymore. Yeah, I know. I gave
them a hard time. I didn't understand that. Because
they're not selling. Well, it's a difficult...
when something doesn't have a category. Yes.
When you go to a liquor store and it's like where
do they stick it in the liquor store and it's
in the like random liqueur section. Yeah. And
so when you're going in, like again, most of
us are going to the whiskey section, tequila
or mezcal. We're going somewhere in that area.
You're just not going to see it. And so it's
tough. It's so high proof. Well, I mean, not
all of it's that. Like most of the ones you find
now are 90 to 110 proof. Oh, really? Yeah. The
hazmat one is. So good. Yeah. I have a bottle
and a half left, and I don't know if I'll ever
open that second bottle. Well, you want to enjoy
it. You have to. Well, I do, but I can enjoy
it when I'm 70. When I'm shitting my pants and
forgetting where I'm at, you know? Then you won't
remember what it tastes like. I know. Here's
a new one for you, grandkids. I'm going to puke
on you. So, you guys, how often are you tasting
the aging single malt to determine, like, Maybe
another year, maybe six months. When do you make
the call? So that's the best part of the French
methods for aging is that we taste everything
about every four months. Every four months. And
so we're judging how it's developing, how it's
going. And based on the progression, you're kind
of predicting that it's probably another 12 months.
And sometimes if we really like it, we're like,
well, let's hang on to it a little longer and
see how it gets. Now, do you guys move them around
the rickhouse at all? It depends. So for us,
moving things around the rickhouse is really
more flavor profile dependent because when we
move things to certain parts of the warehouse,
we want it to help encourage certain flavor developments
because the more extreme parts of the warehouse
are going to have certain impacts on kind of
what flavors you're going to get. And the more
docile, calm areas will allow other flavors to
really develop more dominantly. And you're really
talking about temperature, right? Yeah, temperature,
how... the temperature changes are, whether it's
slow variation or high variation. When you're
looking at also like barometric pressures that
you'll see, that also is going to impact how
things really mature and change. Is your new
rickhouse, is it pressurized in there? It's not
pressurized. It's actually, so the new warehouse,
it doesn't have any insulation in it, but it's
also... right next to a creek so on the backside
yeah so when we're talking about like i had my
concerns about that the erosion factor falling
out of there it's always dangerous uh you know
the concrete's been there for many years so hopefully
it stays around hopefully yeah uh so how many
stacks high are the the barrels like we go about
four stacks high four okay that's not too bad
we don't go too crazy but the crazy thing from
ground floor to four high can be about three
to four degrees difference. So it's really quite
massive. But having that kind of that dry creek
bed on the far side of that building, especially
when we have wet years like we did last year,
the humidity level is so much higher in the new
warehouse than the old warehouse. So whereas
at 1845, they see a slight, either their proof
stays the same or kind of drops typically at
their warehouse. Our original warehouse, the
proof always goes up. or all but one year the
proof has gone up. In the new warehouse, it's
actually way more docile as far as that increase
in proof. So it's really interesting because
of that. So does that unpredictability excite
you guys? Or does it make you nervous? Or like,
how do you feel about, like, are you wanting
to try to control it and predict? Or are you
just like, hey man, bring it. Mother nature,
just bring it. That's, again, that's another
one of those French things that's really been
ingranduous is it's... mother nature it's it's
where we're from it's what we are and that's
what you're supposed to embrace and really curate
is that and what it does to the barrels is what
it does what it does and that's because that's
what texas is that's where that's what denison
is and that's what we're really supposed to embrace
and in the philosophy that we follow now i have
some very good friends that have a distillery
out in nevada who have a certain warehouses that
are actually keyed to certain parts of scotland
and they're their temperature, their humidity...
Massively controlled. ...is all set to the exact
place in Scotland that they want to replicate.
Ah, interesting. Interesting. And so it's a very...
Again, it's a little more expensive process.
Are they successful? Yeah, I mean, they... Does
it work? It does work. Like, they can maintain
those conditions in that warehouse. Now, is it...
That's kind of like cheating. ...pricier than
what you want it to be? It's... Dude, that's
what they're trying... The money they cost to
climatize that has got to be... Yeah, you're
right. I don't think it's cheating. It's cheating
if you're trying to make a specific... spirit
with a specific profile to mirror what Scotland
is. Yeah, I get it. Cheating is not the right
word. I guess I'm with you. I'm like, it's exciting
to see what Mother Nature does. And when you
look at Texas or even Pacific Northwest or Florida
or Arizona or SoCal or New York, all those areas,
again, because it's been so long since it's been
traditional to distill things in those areas,
we really don't have spirits that have those.
profiles from those regions and so part of the
to me what was the most exciting part about the
explosion of craft distilling in the united states
is you all of a sudden had products being made
in all of these regions yep so you can really
start seeing what these different climates do
but also like embraces it's weird how kind of
almost reflects the culture of an area too their
signature yeah and it to me it's really really
beautiful like when we start talking about american
single malt uh you go out to um Tucson. There's
a really amazing distillery out there that does
also some mesquite smoke stuff that's absolutely
phenomenal. It's one of my favorite American
single malts because it is so reflective of that
place. I think I've had the mesquite smoke. What
is it called? Belbeck? Delbeck. Delbeck, sorry.
My brother lives in Tucson. No, he lives in...
Shit. Yeah, he lives in Tucson. And he got me
the mesquite smoked one. And I wasn't ready for
the smoke stuff. It is really smoky. You would
hate it. They do have some that's non -smoky
that they do that's really interesting as well.
But you have them. You've got Westward up in
Oregon that's absolutely amazing. You've got
Andalusia and Balcones here in Texas. You've
got just so many they're doing. There's a couple
really cool ones on the East Coast as well. But
they're all so different because of that climate
and that. Again, some of the choices the distillers
have made, but it really embraces a lot of what
those places are. And to me, that's what gets
me giddy as a distiller. I'm like, oh, let's
see what happens here. And that's just the aging.
Well, we're giddy for you. Yeah, that's just
the aging in those areas. I mean, when I toured
at Cooperage, and they talked about the oak and
where the oak comes from, and they're talking
about down to square miles of where they're requesting
oak in a certain ravine, in a certain state,
because that was the best oak they... They age,
I mean, dude, the variability is insane. It's
insane. Even go to with cooperages, what's one
of the, sorry to jump into the super nerdy stuff
here, but one of my favorite things about cooperages
is because they yard age lumber. So they put
it outside. It's part of what breaks it down,
which again is really important part of the whole
process for making barrels. But you have different
bacteria, different flora in different places.
And then that breaks down the oak in different
ways. So you can have actually the oak from the
exact same forest that is yard aged in two different
places. And the flavor profiles are massively
different. Again, when you guys come up to the
distillery next time, we can taste a Kelvin barrel,
which is in Kentucky versus an independent stave
barrel that is in Missouri. And the flavor profile,
even though the wood is from the exact same forest,
same region, flavor profiles are massively different.
And that, again, is one of those things that's
so cool. It's a little overwhelming. So you almost
have to embrace that you can't necessarily make
everything, like you don't want to necessarily
make everything identical. No, no, no. But then
again, you have, you know, you got Jack Daniels
and you got Jim Beam and they make the product
exactly the same. Yeah, the same Nashville. They
just put in different parts of the Rickhouse.
So. Yeah, walk us through that. So with them,
obviously they have. The way they've commercialized
things, the way they've built those factories,
it really helps with maintaining consistency.
And it's really impressive because it's a very
difficult thing to keep consistent. But the truth
is, if I grabbed a bottle of Jack Daniels from
92 and you opened a Jack Daniels from today and
you tasted the two next to each other, they're
different. And because you have slight flavor
drift over time because of forest yeast actually...
and change, especially a lot of those distilleries
will have their own yeast cultures that they
maintain. Those things, they evolve over time.
Because you have so many generations, there's
a little bit of evolution that actually occurs
and so the flavor profiles change slightly. And
then you have the blenders and the distillers
that have... Also slightly different palettes
than previous generations. And so they kind of
slowly move things. It's very difficult to be
consistent like that. It seems to me like everything
has to be constantly changing. I mean, I was
going to ask you regarding. the changing palate
for you. I'm sure four or five years ago, you
had your favorite Iron Root bottle, and I'm sure
that Iron Root bottle is not your favorite anymore,
and you've got new ones. And I think everybody's
like that. It's just constantly changing. So
I've got some of my favorite bottles, and I tasted
them now, and I'm like, eh. It's fine. It's good.
I'm glad that we grow. We appreciate different
flavors that we didn't taste before. Seven years
ago, we were totally weeded. people because the
the rivalry kind of like oh god bless that's
really uh tart and astringent and we we can't
do that and now we're like wheat oh it's nice
and soft it's like an iced tea you know and now
we're like gravity why do we why do we talk like
that that was i'll see you oh you mean me oh
okay cool And the proof, we changed on proof,
too. Yeah, and the proof is off the charts. That
was a big change for us. I remember the first
tiny Jack Daniels bottle that we bought. It was
like 120 proof, 130 proof. I brought it over
to your house. It was a Jack Daniels, one of
the single barrels. It was like 137 or something
like that. We were like, good God almighty. We
did a shot of it, and we just thought, and now
we're kind of like, bring it. Yeah, let's go.
It would warm us in a very calm way. I mean,
I think for me, honestly, one of the really eye
-opening experiences I had was the first time
I had a Jack Daniels cast strength. Yeah. Which
was really fun because it was 66 .6%, which I
was like, all right, definitely going to buy
that one. Sounds evil. It was evil. And that's
what was great about it. But it was the first
time I was like, oh, Jack can do some really
amazing, like, I really like this, which is normal.
Jack Daniels, Gentleman's Jack, whenever you're
drinking it, it's fine. It's the same all the
time. It's nothing that really interests me.
But when you had that, I was like, oh, my goodness.
Yeah, this is really amazing. The single barrels
that they put out, the Coyhill, the Tanyard.
Amazing. Really good. That stuff is like insane.
Yeah. And that's one of the things like when
people were talking to us early on, they're like,
oh, craft whiskey. It's like craft beer that
you're making better versions of. And I was like,
no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what's going
on in the craft whiskey. We're like. We're doing
different, unique things. But the difference
between us and the brewers were the brewers were
a revolution against kind of bland and uninteresting
beer. The big guys in the distilling world make
super interesting, really delicious whiskey.
Yeah. And again, you're not going to say that
about regular Budweiser or Bud Light. Right.
It's not going to be something that's going to
capture your interest. But the big guys, they
had all this really. Now, did they always release
it that way? No, they didn't. They have it and
they had it and they were making really amazing
whiskey. That was one of the cool things as a
distiller. Oh my goodness, our big guys are doing
some really cool stuff too. Then you get these
distillers that have a great product and they
sell their company. Then you have the new person
that says, we're going to change the mash bill
on this. Early Times, for example. They sold
the Early Times brand in the mash bill. So they
changed it. Changed it up. It's completely. So
when they made that announcement and we ran to
the stores to try to gobble up all the, I mean,
look, I don't drink early times a lot, but I
like to always have early times on my shelf.
I mean, six years bottle and bond 100 proof for
that price point. Amazing. I mean, do we know
that the new one's not good anymore? Well, we're
getting feedback. Are we just upset that it's
changed? Well. I mean, I'm sure it's both. I
mean, based on what the Total Wine Kevin Nishimi
said, is that his name? Yeah. You know, he was
telling me that it's trash. Oh, that's upsetting.
Coming from Kevin, you know, I mean, you got
to take his word for it. Oh, for sure. He's a
pro. He had called us, and he was kind of like,
well, you guys kind of need to come up here and
get up a bottle and say goodbye. Goodbye. Right.
So we went up there, and I think we bought like
four or five bottles, didn't we? A group hug.
Oh, you guys didn't tell me about this. Can I
get one from you guys? They left you out? Yeah,
they left me out. That's rude. What is this?
You were out of town. I'm kind of used to it.
I see how it is. I see how it is. He was gallivanting
with his tier ones. Yeah, no. With his grand
reserve status over there. Right. Right. So I
want to ask you a question. So you're growing
like crazy, super successful, but there have
to have been moments where there was a really
disappointing setback or something super frustrating
or wish you had done differently. Like what mistakes
have you guys made that you're like, well, maybe
there aren't any. Maybe it's all been just a
fun experiment and everything's gone great. I
will tell you, if there's an entrepreneur that
says, no, I did everything perfect, everything
went to plan, everything's great, they are lying
to you. That's not the way. Not usually, no.
No, I mean, we've had so many setbacks and so
many trials during our time as a company. I mean,
you look at from us, even when we first started
out, when we were doing some really different
things with the different corns, it was really
a struggle early on to be like, hey, we're doing
something interesting and different. Isn't that
exciting? And not everybody wanted. Nobody cared.
Yeah, not everyone was interested in something
new and unique and different. Right. And so our
first three, four years, it was a slog, especially
since we didn't do any sourcing whatsoever our
first four years. So when we started releasing
whiskey, when it was two, three years old, it
was like, hey, isn't this cool? And a lot of
people were like, no. I'm sorry, who are you?
Yeah, what's going on here? Yeah. And so that
struggle to try to, get people to understand
what you're doing and to see kind of the vision
that you had for what you're doing and and why
they should be excited right yeah and even when
i'll tell you now like i i think our whiskey
can get even significantly better than where
we're at today and we have a vision of where
that goes and how to do that and it's one you
got to last long enough to be able to achieve
that which is a struggle of always as a distiller
is when is it that you have to sell something
when is it like that perfect artist ready product
right and so As a young distillery that's three,
four, five years old, that is one of the biggest
struggles. I mean, you're not making money for
a while. Oh, no, no, no. I mean, we sat down
as a family at the end of 2017 and said, we're
going to give it one more year and see if we
can make a go of it. Oh. And we were very, very
fortunate the end of 2018 that we finally got
in front of some people that really saw the vision
of what we're doing and helped us. Start growing
and start investing. Does that mean partnership?
No, no, no. It was actually some liquor stores
that actually saw what we were doing and really
jumped in. Because we had, you know, obviously
the first liquor store group that really kind
of saw what we were doing, like, oh, this is
cool, was Fossil Creek. They were right next
door to us. There's kind of our own backyard.
But they went through some financial troubles
of their own in 2017. So when we kind of lost
them, it was kind of like, what do we do now?
And it was, I'll never forget, it was Christmas.
of 2018 that total wine one of the store managers
called the distillery was like hey i've had people
asking for your whiskey wow but we uh who's your
distributor because we can't we can't figure
it out that was us by the way yeah and our thank
you for that i appreciate it i didn't really
want to save you like like you say france that's
very very kind of you it was us yeah so anyway
keep going so he uh he was and so we told him
who our distributor was and you know, next thing
I know they had, they brought in that hubris
corn whiskey in five days before Christmas. And
they brought in all of it that we had, which
was at the time, like 40 cases. So not a ton
of product, but they brought it in. And then
between that 20th of December and new year's
day, they sold every single bottle. Damn. And
so then January 4th, I get a phone call from,
uh, from total wine that said, Hey, you know,
you sold really well here. We'd like to do, can
we, sell your product in other stores and we'd
like to work with you to try to do that um if
you we want to bring into some other states so
if you need some help contacting some distributors
we'll help get that all set up for you and that
was kind of off the races and really help set
you know set us up and then 2020 happened with
harbinger and then things blew up from there
so you were literally on the brink we were on
the brink yeah it was that's scary yeah but but
you know hey The coin landed heads that day.
There you go. That's awesome. That's awesome.
You guys have a lot of great things going for
you. I mean, the style that you have, awesome.
I got to tell you, the tour itself, the tour
has got to be one of the best tours that we've
gone to. And look, we're not kissing your ass.
No, for real. It's a fact. You guys are very
thorough. You're very friendly. The family appeal
is strong. When you guys go in there, talk and
give in the banter between you guys, it's excellent.
and uh and just very knowledgeable when you start
talking about the you know the tails and hearts
and heads fatty acid esters and start breaking
everything down you know that is so it's we didn't
know a lot of that stuff and we we gobbled it
up And we went through several different tours.
And the fact that we were to piggyback on the
Total Wine one, that was just a bonus. Kevin,
we acted like Total Wine employees. We just kind
of slipped in there. So the tour is great, and
your product is great, and you are... ever -evolving,
and part of these evolving things are the newer
bottles that you guys have coming out. Yeah,
we haven't even talked about this. So tonight
we're drinking the Iron Root Republic Assemblage
or Assemblage. I don't know. It's actually none
of those. But it's a fancy bottle. I've got to
tell you, it's a little similar to the Heaven
Hill grain to glass kind of bottle, but it's
got the cool little snub on the top. Well, I
think this is... Yeah, I think maybe the bottom,
but I really like this bottle. Yeah, it's sharp.
I think it's unique unto itself. So when you
see this on the shelf, you're really going to
go, I don't know who that is. Is that kind of
the goal behind that was? Is it we need something
unique? So when we first started, we had a custom
bottle that was kind of this flat horseshoe -shaped
kind of bottle. And then when 2020 happened,
that factory that made those shut down, we went
to try to get it made somewhere else. We got...
The price jump was a little bit shocking. And
I was like, I'm not willing to have a bottle
increase of $20 on shelf for the same thing.
Just because of the bottle. Just because of the
bottle. And so we went to a more generic E .H.
Taylor. Right. Same bottle. And so it's something
that we've had in the back of mind that we wanted
to come back and have something that was really
our own again. But it took us many years to really
come up with this because one. Getting my mother,
my brother, myself, and my father to all agree
on something is not an easy task. And I think
designing stuff to me, label, naming things,
design work, that is the most difficult part
of all this. The cap on there, the licorice family.
It's sharp. I mean, that is, you own that. Yeah.
That is wonderful. Kudos to you in the design
of it. Who designed it? Was it a collaboration?
Yeah. The whole family jumped in or what? So
we actually went through a couple different design
companies and just nothing really hit. And then
there's a really amazing company out of Mexico
called Human that are designed by Human. And
those guys, they're some of the coolest people
I've ever met. Have amazing kind of just creative
energy. They also did, they've done a number
of things. They've worked with Bardstown on like
the design of their bar and stuff at Bardstown.
Right. They've done, there's a really cool Mexican
whiskey called, it's Grand, what's the name?
Grand, geez, this is going to kill me. Grand
Maze, I think that's probably. Mexican whiskey.
It's a Mexican whiskey. Really cool. But they
actually designed and developed a way to actually
print the label on a corn husk. for the for the
label it's a really kind of cool um and see if
it comes up yeah so really just kind of because
i can talk about this this bottle as well that
they developed grand mazel yeah it's really really
really cool um there you go so you see the top
of it they actually use soil from the from the
land where they farm the corn oh wow for that
top part it's actually embedded in the glass
oh wow that sounds expensive it's really cool
it's it's i mean it it's it's more expensive
than just a you know regular everyday bottle
but as far as kind of the thought that went into
of like hey this is our soil this is what makes
what this what it is it was something that really
spoke to us and so working with them um on the
kind of reimagining our logo that had my brother's
like thumbprint on it because again of how much
we touch barrels um Oh, is that his thumbprint
on there? It is his thumbprint. I was going to
say that. So the logo has a thumbprint behind
the R. Interesting. And then roots below it.
Say that again. Whose thumbprint is that? So
it's my brother's. So if you want to steal his
bank account information, that's the best way
to do it. So the bottle at the top, it's got
a snub on there. It also has an embossed Iron
Root Republic around it. And then the cap has
a gold. metal band that says the licorice family
on there. I mean, it's just absolutely sharp
and stunning. It's really cool. And for $30 for
a bottle, $32 for a bottle, it's... Well, I have
to tell you, this is outstanding. That's how
much the bottle costs? I'm sorry, Jeff. That's
a blend of like six to eight -year -old whiskey
in it, too. I was going to say, this is outstanding.
And we're proof snobs. Because when you start
getting into the 95s, At least a lot of them.
There's not a lot there. They fall off. They
do. This does not at all. No, it doesn't. It's
rich start to finish. Yeah, we've had a couple
of them that are like that, Michter's 10 being
one of them. And this is another one that is
just, there's a lot there for this kind of proof.
you know secret i guess i'm announcing it now
you guys first ones know there will be a cast
strength version of this will come here in a
few months so there will be a big boy well that's
gonna be we have an opportunity to sample it
that's gonna be hard oh you get ready it's really
fun if this is as rich as what this is at 95
or 96 whatever it is already rich no yeah yeah
the the The 117 is killer on that one. The problem
with a lot of these whiskeys at the lower proofs
is that they are up front very tasty, but it
dies down. This one has a lingering flavor that
continues for another 30 seconds, up to a minute.
It's still there. And I'll tell you the reason
why this has it, and it's because of the pot
still, like our distal that we add to it. The
pot still has just a little bit more oils to
it. It has a little bit more things that grip
and hang on to your palate. Really? That's really
what it lends to this blend is it helps it last
a lot longer than what normally you would at
this brew. You would think that most distilleries
would know that because that is one of our major
complaints about things, that they die. You would
think that they would understand that there's
more oil you need in that process. We talked
about that. They don't have pot stills. That's
right. They don't use pot stills. No, they don't.
They use column. And when you only have column
in the six to eight year range, it's very difficult
to get a concentration of oils. That's why we
start talking about 12, 15, 18 year old column
still spirit. You finally have had enough evaporation
where you've started to concentrate some oils
and it will start holding on. With pot still,
you have that at a much earlier age than you
do with column. Like right away. Yeah. That is
fascinating. This is outstanding. It's available
now, you said, right? It ships out next week.
Oh, okay. Yeah, we got first dibs. World debut
right here. Yeah, well, this is outstanding.
And $30, you said? Yeah, it'll be between $30
to $35. How much is this? $30 to $35 on the shelf.
That's how much this is on the shelf? I would
definitely buy this. Oh, definitely. 100%. All
right, I have a question, just because I'm old
man. That everything has to be so small print
on the back? It is. It is. It can't be larger.
It can't be. If you have anything better than
2040 vision, you're not allowed to be able to
read it. Is that a Texas law? Oh, it's ridiculous.
Well, that's a federal law. And some of these
will have like big long stories. And they're
in like old English script. There's no way. We
kept the story very short on the back of the
phone. It's like the end of a commercial and
they're talking super fast. What just happened?
My grandfather invented a recipe back in 2017.
Yeah. No, but it's great. And you brought a couple
more on there. Yeah. I figured we'd investigate
a little deeper. We might do a couple samples
during the halftime, a couple little ones. I
mean, you're not working tomorrow. You don't
care. What do you got going on? You're babysitting
a dog. It's spring break. It's spring break.
Oh, my God. We could get blown up. Dude, I work.
Oh. I got to work tomorrow. But you know what?
I don't care. Theoretically. Theoretically. Oh,
we have our St. Patty's Day. We have a St. Patty's
Day celebration over the weekend. If you guys
want to join us. Robert, you're welcome to come.
We live about half a mile up here. That would
be super cool. We can visit it. We got a little
karaoke going on. Uh -oh. There's going to be
a couple of whiskey guys out there. Chris Van
Rees will probably bless us with this. Scott
Cash will be there. You have Bill, the whiskey
guy. Nice. He's showing up with a few heavy hitters.
Michael Marine. Don't know Michael. Have we met
Michael? Michael was over at Scott Cash for the
samples. These guys go to the Sips Thursday night
show. Ooh, all right. There you go. So these
guys are all heavy hitters. They're going to
be there, and they're bringing a six -pack of
whiskeys to sample. Damn. They always make some
good stuff. Six -pack of whiskey. That's a dangerous
combination right there. It totally is. It usually
ends with yes. I purchased. I got ahead of it
a little bit. I went on Amazon. I purchased.
They're plastic. I don't give a shit. I purchased
a bunch of whiskey glasses. You know, about a
40 -pack. Little Glen Cairns? Well, they're not
quite Glen Cairns, but they're more highballs.
But, you know, it was just me. I'm kind of like
I'm going over. Several of my Glen Cairns broke
last time, and I'm kind of salty about that.
So I'm like, yeah, you know, we're just going
to get these. Whatever. If you guys want a Glen
Cairn, you're more than a grab one. But some
of these other folks, I don't know. I'll bring
mine from Heaven Hill that has. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You got to have the I'm hanging out on a walking
around glass. Oh, my gosh. That's such a great
idea. I forgot about that. Yes. Shelly and I
both have one from the Heaven Hill tour. About
the three of us wearing it. Sean will be left
out. Yes, let's do it. We've got a couple more
minutes left before the time stacks. Actually,
a couple more. As far as, we talked a little
bit about staves. You kind of hinted on the word.
Do you guys use staves in any of your production?
I mean. Obviously, the barrels are made of staves.
We don't do any insertion of staves like you
would see with a Maker's 46 or something like
that. Do you mix any of the species of wood?
You have American oak and French oak at the same
time? Oh, yeah. We're one of the crazier distilleries
on that end. Only about 60 % of our barrels are
100 % American oak. We've got a lot of Slovenian
oak that we're going to use. We'll use a bit
of Hungarian. You're saying there's different
staves in the same barrel. A lot of times when
we have hybrid barrels, it'll be multiple oaks.
It'll be the barrel itself is made from one type
of oak and the heads are made from a different.
There you go. That's typically how it's done.
Just because if you try to match up different
staves from different oak types, they won't seal
super well. Doing what I call a rainbow barrel
works really well if you have the same type of
oak that had different wine finishes or something
on it. But if you're trying to use different
species of oak, it's really better for the body
to stick with one type. So is that standard in
the industry for people to do that? Are the Cooperages,
like, they're used to those kind of requests?
Or were you guys throwing out some crazy shit?
We're kind of a crazier bunch. You know, 99 %
of bourbon is 100 % American oak. That's just
how it's done. The zany couples. We're only about
60 % normal. The other 40 % is pretty unique.
My favorite is actually some of the black oak
out of France. It's really interesting. Super
different. What is produced with the black oak
that you guys have? Armagnac. So you're looking
at Harold. We'll use, especially on the St. Sally's
side, we'll have a lot of the black oak with
it. A lot of Harbinger we'll use. About 30 %
of the barrels will actually have Slovenian oak
in the barrels for that because it's a little
bit more. Any Hungarian, Czechoslovakian? Hungarian
we'll use. Czechoslovakian, not as much. I think
I made that up. But the Hungarian one, because
I know 1845 had their double oak in the bottle.
What does the Slovenian, what does that impart
into the bourbon? So Slovenian, as far as the
way the species is, it's kind of in between American
and your standard French limousine oak. So it
has a little bit more baking spice to it, but
also has a little more sweetness than the French
does. So the French oak tends to be a lot more
baking spice, but less sweet overall when it
comes to spirits. The wine's a little bit different,
but we're throwing a bunch of curveballs. Now,
double oak. You guys doing a double oak yet?
Oh, gosh, yeah. Are we missing this? What's going
on? Jeff and I already have it. In fact, on the
research paper earlier, you had a release that
was an independent bottling. from Lost Lantern.
It was actually a double oak that we did. 2025,
single cast, 13. A recent double barrel. I didn't
even read my own shit. How about that? Double
barrel Texas bourbon collaborates with the Lost
Lantern has gained attention for the dance floor.
I really enjoy double oaks. I got to gobble that
up. You guys out loud now? So we do on the assemblage
side, we do have some double oak. The most recent
specs and total wine picks are actually double
oaks. So it's something we do occasionally. It's
a really fun thing to kind of pepper in there
because we have so many different types of oak
that we use that we have double oaks of French
oaks and American oaks and different European
species. We've played around with it all. How
do you keep track of this? You have this massive
spreadsheet with all these, every possible combination
of everything you guys are doing. It's epic.
My brother is amazing at Excel. I will tell you
that. I've got to say, there's got to be like
48 tabs on this thing. You better back it up.
He's reached the limit. Put it on the cloud,
yeah. He's reached the limit of his cell. He's
got a 30 -foot wide dry erase board. That's all
the cells you can use. He's capped out on the
cells. He's capped out. Dude, this has been great.
I can't wait for you to join the second half.
I'm ready for it. Good. What did you think about
the Dudes Like Us podcast? Wonderful Infinity
Classy sample. It's really, really fun. I wasn't
expecting it to have as much like craft bourbon
influence into it. And that was really kind of
cool to see of like. You can see the layers of
some of the different craft whiskeys in there,
along with some, again, like your more traditional
bourbon. But I was looking at the list, and I
was looking at kind of which ones you use. But
that was the thing that really stuck out to me
is that it was still really unique, even though
you peppered in just a few of the craft guys.
There's 30 more bottles in there that's not even
on the list. How impactful that side of it was
was something that I absolutely loved. Well,
we enjoyed doing it. Yeah, we're writing it all
down, and we're going to bottle it, and we're
going to... like barrel it and double barrel
it. You sticking around for the second half?
You know it. God bless. Chuck, thank you for
staying on top of shit today. It's the first
half of the Dudes Like Us podcast Thursday, March
19th. It's a Thursday. It is. God bless. Tomorrow
is Friday. First day of spring. Is it really
tomorrow? March 20th. It's going to be 90 degrees
on Saturday. Is it really? Yes. Good thing I'm
wearing my kilt. Spring in Texas. There you go.
Is it a good thing? Oh, dude, you know, me, I'm
crotchless with those things. Oh, God. That's
not a good thing. Check us out on Dudes Like
Us podcast for Instagram, Facebook, YouTube,
TikTok. We're on everything. We're kind of a
big deal. Yeah. I mean, we got iRoot on our podcast.
Give me a break here. All right. Look, Dudes
Like Us, I'm Sean. I'm Paul. And I'm Jeff. And
I'm Robert.