Welcome to our podcast, The Why in the 20s.
My name is Viv.
And I'm Nat.
We are two counselors in our mid-20s navigating our adulthood away from our home country,
exploring the why questions we encounter relating to relationships, identities, and uncertainties.
So whether you're listening to our podcast while going for your walk or doing the chores,
welcome on board and let the journey begin.
Welcome back to a new episode of The Why in your 20s.
How is everyone?
How are you, Viv?
Why are you laughing?
It's good.
I was having a really interesting conversation with Viv yesterday.
I was sharing one of my very cute, wholesome encounters.
Not really.
Well, you turn it into a very creepy, scary story, but that's not what I intended to.
I was expecting another reaction, but it's very cute.
So the story is, last week I was walking one of the dogs that I used to walk.
And it's quite normal for me to smile and have a quick conversation with other pet owners
as well while I'm walking the dog.
So last week I bumped into an old lady and it's very interesting because the first thing
is the dog meet each other and we're like, oh, they seem to get along.
Out of the blue, the old lady said, oh, never underestimate how powerful a smile and a short
conversation are.
Like you never know how lonely a person can be and maybe that's all they need.
And I immediately feel like click with that grandma because I feel like a smile is my
superpower as well.
I think immediately my response was that definitely the old lady felt very lonely.
That's why she said that.
I think I thought that as well, or maybe she think I look very lonely.
And we're chit chatting and of course I asked about, oh, what else?
It's very random of me to ask as well.
I'm like, oh, what is the number one tips that you would give to young people?
Like suddenly interviewing the grandma.
It's a very cliche question as well.
I think because I was looking for some wow moments, like, I don't know, of the blue
subtle interviewing the grandma saying, what are the number one tips that you would give
to young people about relationships?
Because she said she's with her husband for like six, it's the 66th anniversary and they're
born like 1930 something.
So she's like 80 something years old.
So I was like, oh, what is the secret of this long lasting relationship?
Compromising.
I'm kidding.
I like compromising having that, you know, caring, understanding personalities.
And she's like, go find someone that has similar interests as you.
And that's like, I don't know.
I don't know if this I should be disappointed or I was shocked at the response she gave,
the answer that she gave it to me because I was expecting something more, something different.
Like interest is not the first thing that I could have thought of.
But maybe it's for her relationship with her husband that they met through an interest,
a common interest.
That's why she gave you that advice.
I thought so.
But it's a very interesting and wholesome encounter.
And it's not.
No, you and the other friend ruined it.
Yeah, because we were saying that like maybe she is a serial killer.
And then Nat was like, oh, how can a sweet old lady be a serial killer?
No, you can't judge a person based on her appearance.
She has a really nice smile.
Yeah, so do most serial killers.
They're very charming.
And they can work as a family.
Exactly.
That's why I don't watch horror or like thriller.
I don't watch it either.
But you can just imagine it.
But I'm glad she's not that alert because it means that she didn't experience any or
encounter any quote unquote bad experience.
Well, now I'm thinking not yet.
I hope you don't in the future as well.
No, but I think that's what I told her the same thing as well.
That's the number one thing that I like about Australian culture is everyone is so friendly
and even in the neighborhood, you say, hey, morning, you know, you smile to each other
and you have like those short conversations.
And maybe sometimes that's what that person needs.
That simple connection.
Whereas Hong Kong, you don't have that, right?
No.
Maybe that contributes to the crime rate here.
Hong Kong, not so much.
Not recently.
Yeah, quite a lot.
I don't want to think in that way.
I think everyone should do more.
Yeah, we should all do more.
But what if the serial killers want to do more?
Oh, no.
Well, I don't know how to debate over that.
Weird, weird conversation that we had.
I just want to share a very cute wholesome encounter over the weekend.
You can let us know if it's a wholesome or a creepy encounter.
It's wholesome.
It's I insist.
Okay, sure.
And now I have second thought of that old lady.
Next time I'm bumping into her, I might run away.
What's so good?
Just be alert, not avoid all encounters.
Yeah, but if you're alert, then you can't be authentic to the person because you're
not being truly yourself.
You can be alert and authentic.
I have no in-between.
The balance, the balance between the two is very important.
I either not share or overshare.
That's me.
Anyway, that's the story of this week.
Yeah, we should add that we can have like a funny story or like...
Do you have interesting encounter?
I'm sure I have funny story.
Okay, next week is on you.
I'll try.
I've never heard you share like a funny, interesting encounter.
Yeah, because I don't think that's the first thing that comes to mind when I encounter
someone.
It's not like I have to share this with someone.
I have to share this with Nat.
No, I just keep it like, oh, it's funny.
Cool.
Then share it if it's funny.
My life is funny enough.
But do you think starting the podcast change how you think as well or not really?
As in how?
No, I think I don't know.
Like when I went to a coffee shop, I saw a poster around cold drip coffee.
I can immediately link to an analogy.
I don't think that's the podcast effect.
Or like if I have this encounter and I'm like, oh, I want to share with Viv and I want to
share it on the podcast.
No?
No.
Well, I'm looking forward to your story next week.
Well, I'm sure the audience are very looking forward to it as well.
Maybe I can just make out something.
No!
We are here for like authentic, real, true story.
10 years ago is okay?
No!
Okay.
We're still in experience.
Yep.
For sure there's a lot of them.
Okay, I'm looking forward to it.
I have never shared with you yet, for sure.
Okay.
I'm all ears and excited.
I'm really, I'm probably going to forget the moment we finish this podcast.
I'll remind you next week.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Why don't we go into today's topic?
What are we talking about, Nat?
It's a very different atmosphere than the story.
It's about both graduation stress.
Wow.
Just even saying those three words.
Three, two, two.
Two, three.
Depends if you put a hyphen in it or not.
Okay.
Yeah.
Like these three words, just saying them gives me stress almost.
Yeah.
I think it's very, we can both resonate with it because that's what we are, at least that's
what I am experiencing now.
Resonate with it too much.
Yeah.
So let's start with, because we've just completed our master, do you want to start by sharing
your undergraduate experience?
Yeah.
I experienced more of that stress of whether I should continue further studies or find
a job or like what kind of field I want to be in.
What degree you're in?
I study marketing.
Right.
Okay.
So then after that undergrad, after I graduated, I didn't know where to go.
Like what kind of path I should head down to.
I didn't know if I should stay here.
I didn't know I should go back home to Hong Kong or anywhere else.
But it was just a lot of uncertainty around that.
Not knowing if I should do further studies or find a job.
Yeah.
And finding a job, like what would it be?
Because honestly, marketing is just so broad.
Yeah.
It's just, it's so broad and it's nothing at the same time.
Yes, absolutely.
And it's just very hard to know what kind of job I can find.
But if it's further studies, I know I don't want to do business related things anymore.
And my parents were, maybe you can do more about the, more of the social science because
they feel that, oh, for example, accounting, a lot of people say accounting is a good job.
But then honestly, it might be taken over by a robot or a gas system.
So, but this connecting to humans, you can never replace it by robot.
You can't replace it by technology.
Right.
So they were like, oh yeah, you can just go through that and then decide later what kind
of career you actually want to pursue.
So is it back to back, like your undergraduate and master or that's a gap in between?
No.
So this is actually my second master and I did a previous master in social science in
psychology at school settings kind of thing.
And there was a six month gap, I believe.
No, three to four, three to four.
And then I had to do a prerequisite course, which was online.
It was an immediate start.
So I stayed behind for a few, one or two months in Australia and then went back home and just
did nothing again for two, three months.
And studying for that course, that prerequisite course, that was the first time I studied
because I really wanted to do well.
And I feel like it's, I can't just, I can't just not study because it's a course where
I actually have to get good enough grades to get into the course itself.
And it's not like marketing where I can just use my common sense.
Yeah.
So going back to that six month gap that you did for unquote nothing, are you okay with
that or you have other feelings?
For me at that moment, I felt okay with it.
I felt like, because I know after this one, that one year master, I have to continue studying
as well.
So I felt like, okay, maybe I can rest for a bit and just slow down and find different
hobbies or interests at that moment.
It was okay.
But my parents were not that happy with it, especially my dad wanted me to do something.
It's like getting experience, some work experience.
Yeah, getting experience, work experience, just doing something with my life.
He wasn't very adamant in me finding a job, but just finding something to do.
So that six month, I think even though I was planning to do the prerequisite course and
that master course, it was very uncertain because I kept going back and forth.
I was like, should I still continue with it or should I just give up and find a job immediately?
Like even if you have plans ahead, you still feel uncertain and not sure whether you have
made the right decision.
Yeah, because if I go into that, I'm going to have to spend even more time in further
studies.
It's not that just, it's not just that one year.
I have to continue to study to get another master of, well, now it's master of counseling,
but at the time I didn't know one.
It was just more related to psychology, civil sciences, those stuff.
Do you compare that with your sister or like your friends?
I think I definitely compare with my sister.
My sister was studying also.
So I felt like, okay, as long as she's studying, me studying is not that big of a deal.
Right.
So it's a good comparison.
Yeah, it's a good comparison.
With my friends, because Australia is three years and most of the universities are four
years, they were still studying as well.
And then whether, like some of them are studying in law or med even longer.
So they are studying as well.
So there wasn't really that much of a gap.
But to be fair, I didn't really compare because I lost contact with them.
And you're not really on social media anyway.
Yeah, exactly.
I'm not really on social media.
So there wasn't much to compare.
What about you?
Do you remember your undergrad?
I know you study psychology as an undergrad.
Did you always have that plan of going into masters after that?
I think continuous study is always in my mind because my sister is also studying.
So same as you, I feel like it makes sense for me to continue to study.
And I do double degree, so psychology and marketing.
At first, I'm pretty sure I'm going to marketing because I'm very interested in it.
And also, as I said in the previous episode, like few episodes before that, I'm not really
good at psychology subjects.
So I was thinking, oh, maybe I can just stick with marketing and go from that path.
But I think it's towards the second, third year that I really interested in psychology
that I decided to go on that route.
And but you know how hard it is to gain to honors.
And my English already not good to begin with, it makes it, and it's very competitive.
So I didn't get into honors.
I think that gives me a shock because my plan is study the bachelor and then honors and
then master in psychology and be a psychologist.
And I think that's what a lot of people saying psychology will experiences.
Oh, what now if I don't get into honors or even after they finish honors, they didn't
get into master.
What now?
Because I start in July, it's like the second semester after discussion with my parents,
I decided to enroll in master of counseling, but it only started in February.
So I have like a six month gap as you and I couldn't go home because of COVID.
And also couldn't stay in college because it's very expensive.
So I just need to move out and make my way till next year, February.
Survive until it starts.
Yeah.
And I think it's a very difficult time for me because I was sleeping on my friend's couch
and it really deteriorates my mental health as well.
Is Sydney or in Brisbane?
In Sydney because the rent, if you, if I still, and I'm very thankful that the friend offered
to let me stay.
So I, the rent is cheap and then I do free part-time job at that time.
Just to earn some income to pay the rent plus occupy my time.
And also it's COVID.
So it's like even harder to find a job.
I'm very thankful that I got it and I passed through that six month, but it's not too bad
for me because I know I have plans ahead that I have that two years of master coming in
the future.
So my only thought is all I need is to go through this six months, even though how hard
it is, once I moved to Brisbane, things will get better.
So that's just my mindset.
I wouldn't say it's too much uncertainty.
It's just a short term stress, I would say.
Yeah.
So how did you cope with that stress?
What were some of the thoughts that were going through your head when you were sleeping at
your friend's place?
Pretty bad.
I wouldn't say I cope well.
I ruined friendship as well.
Because I don't know how to express my feelings and like sharing accommodation with friends
is not an easy thing.
Yeah, no, definitely not.
And of course it's me.
I learned the hard way.
But yeah, I wouldn't say I cope it well, but I learned a lot from that experience.
Yeah.
Definitely.
It's not an easy, easy journey, especially those six months.
Aside from working, you don't have much to do because you're waiting that period out.
Yeah.
And with COVID and everything, definitely it was not easy for sure.
Yeah.
But moving forward, how was it different from your after post-grad, like the feelings of
it?
I think now looking back in the underbread is that six months is so easy.
Oh, really?
When compared to what I'm experiencing now.
Oh, okay.
Because I think now you have no what's next, like you don't have things to expect.
There's no end dates.
Yes.
And I think that's something hard about adulthood is you're not no longer in school that you
have deadlines to meet.
And then you know, after that deadlines, you can rest for a period is you don't know when
is next time you can rest.
And of course, I know you have like holiday or whatever, but that's different.
So I will say it's very different.
And of course, now looking back, every time you look back, it seems easy, but when you're
in the moment, it feels different.
But for now, after the master, I think I'm more stressed because I couldn't find a job
and you have a lot more things to concern.
You continuously paying rent, paying bills, paying health insurance, and now even paying
our professional insurance as well.
So that's accumulates, but then you don't have an income.
So every day you keep seeing your bank account going down and there's no increase.
And it's not like I was back in undergrad that I can do part-time jobs that is unrelated
to my profession.
You still can, but then my mindset is I just want to spend more time looking for jobs.
And I don't know if that's good and bad.
We can discuss it later, but that's just what I'm feeling now is the stress of more uncertainty
on not knowing when I will get a job, what job I will be working.
And I can go down that spiral of what if I don't get a job until end of December?
You know, that's how I feel at the moment.
Is it the same for you?
I think it's a bit different.
That's why I was shocked that you said it's worse now than the six months.
Because now is I'm pretty content with what's happening in my life right now.
And obviously there is some stress where I feel like I should be getting a job.
What makes you think you should get a job?
I think it's just after your studies because I'm not going to continue studying.
I think there are some responsibility as a human being.
I can't be not doing anything.
If I'm not studying, then I should be doing something.
For example, maybe personal growth, maybe professional development.
It doesn't have to be a job, I would say, but it just has to be something.
Again, I think that goes back to my dad's mindset of you have to be doing something.
You can't be not doing anything in your life.
I actually, I don't mind.
And I was thinking a few days ago that I can just find a random job that's unrelated to
my field and just to cover everything.
And that's very possible in Australia, to be honest.
In Hong Kong, that's not really possible, I would say, to cover rent and everything.
But here it's, that's something good.
Doable.
About, yeah, it's doable.
It's something good about this country.
It's not country, maybe Brisbane.
It's more about that you can survive based on your salary.
So I don't actually feel that stressed out of having to find a job that's related to
counseling.
I mean, obviously it's great if I can.
But I'm satisfied with not having one at the moment.
I feel like it will come eventually.
Yeah, I think I can just have a random job and work on this podcast and then work on
myself and professional development and all that.
So I don't mind having any kind of job, to be honest.
I think it's an appreciation time again.
I was really stressed at the beginning of the year because at that time, I don't know,
I don't have any job.
I think at least now I have like a casual role, but back then I don't.
And I'm just like, oh, I don't know when I'll get a job or I have like an invisible timeline
or standard for myself that I need to start working full time within this period.
And I was really stressed.
So I was talking to Viv at that time.
I'm like, I feel like every time when we hang out in a big group, it's different now because
everyone is so stressed.
And then Viv is like, you're projecting your personal feelings on others.
I'm not saying other people are not stressed, but I think it's not that stressful to cause
the whole environment to be very stressful and not happy, per se.
Yeah, I think because I'm very sensitive to other people's feeling as well.
So that might magnifies it, but also in deep is a very stressful net going on.
And then what you said, I was like, oh, that makes me reflect.
Maybe it's me that I need to focus on, not others.
And then I think that conversation goes on and on, or like it's a different day.
No, I think it was just a cycle of, oh, I cannot find a job.
Right, other people are stressed.
I don't know.
I thought it was a cycle, but the conversation kept going back to, oh, I cannot find a job.
I'm stressed.
And then it goes uphill a bit and then it goes downhill.
It's like, oh, I can take my time.
Oh, but I don't know when I'll get the job.
I need to keep finding a job.
Oh my God, I'm so stressed.
I think every conversation that we had, like any topic that we had, we could go back to
say, oh, but we don't have a job.
It's like, oh, are you free that day?
Oh, right.
Yeah.
Of course you're free.
You don't have a job.
Yeah.
You want to do that.
Oh, of course you're free, but you don't have money.
But how can you do that?
Because you don't have a job, so you don't have money.
But I think that goes on and on.
And then one question that you asked me is what makes you so unhappy about not having
a job?
And then I'm like, oh, I long for that growth.
I want that growth I experienced during placement last year.
And you said, do you really need to get a job to grow?
And I'm like, oh, that is true.
Then I start focusing on how to grow.
And I think that's when we start this podcast.
Oh, is that why?
I think that's something I want to do.
And because of a friend's conversation we had.
Oh my goodness.
It's, it's immediately actually, it's the day after.
And then we started talking about this podcast.
Yes.
Right.
So, the whole story of born of our podcast.
I'm very, I'm truly deeply very thankful because you, it's very hard to find a friend that
can pull you out of that.
Oh, and you know, like some people will say, yeah, we need to find a job.
But it's, I think I will go in that spiral on and on if that conversation didn't exist.
And I will be even more stressed now because I'm every day, my routine is wake up, look
for a job, type cover letter, send it out.
Look for more jobs.
The way you say it's so dull.
It's so boring.
But that's what I was doing at that time.
Yeah.
But I think that links to the other point that I want to say is the unhelpful belief
because I, I would think if I don't have a job, I don't deserve to have fun because
you need to earn it.
The fun, you need to earn it.
It's not like you can have it anytime you want.
How can you go out and catch up with a friend if you don't have a job, you don't have
a job, you don't have money.
You shouldn't waste your time to go out, hang out with friends while that time can
use to find a job.
You might just have missed that chance.
And that's what I've been thinking.
I don't deserve to have fun, you know?
So I rarely hang out with friends unless needed.
Needed.
Like someone going to Interstate or they're leaving the country like a farewell dinner
with them.
It's very toxic.
I know.
I mean, now looking back, I think it's very toxic, but it's just the thought that as
we said, we learned when we are young, you earned your reward.
So you have to earn to have fun.
Yeah.
That's the way sometimes it might be helpful as, as it may motivate you to find a job to
send a cover letters.
But at the same time, again, it's back to the balance of it.
It's like you deserve to have fun as well because having that fun will motivate you
and having the energy of sending out cover letters, sending out resumes.
So it's a balance between the two of completely withdrawing from having fun.
And I think that's what self-compassion is.
Sometimes we think self-care or self-compassion is like a selfish thing to do.
And it can be the opposite.
It can be brings a lot more, as you said, motivation to look for more jobs, having that
little gap or little rest really helps.
Yeah.
I think self-compassion is what I needed, which I didn't give myself permission to
have at that time.
Did you ever share this with your parents?
No, no, I didn't share.
Like that you're stressed out and finding a job.
Well, I think I'm not stressed enough that I need to.
Like again, I feel like it's my responsibility and there's something that everyone experienced
that.
True.
It might be, but at the same time, you can be stressed about it.
Yeah.
I think internally, I also don't want to burden my parents.
I'm like, they can't help me to find a job anyway.
And again, it's me that I feel like I can talk myself out and handle it very well.
At least I study a counseling course.
I can counsel myself.
That's my logic at that time.
Well, which I guess I'm glad because it didn't go further down, but no, I did not share.
Yeah.
And I think you're very the opposite of me because I'm very stressed, but you are very
content.
I think it's a balance.
I feel like a bit more stress will help me and motivate me to find a job.
I think a bit more stress.
I think for me, an optimal level of stress, that's perfect in motivating me to do something
about it and not just avoid it.
I think it's a very extreme you and I.
You're very stressed out, very motivated in that sense.
But for me, I think I'm too content that I avoid it as well.
So it's a balance between the two.
And I actually shared that I was stressed or content or whatnot with my parents, but
I just told them.
Obviously, as Asian parents, they ask, not Asian parents, it's just parents ask how you're
doing.
Yeah.
Especially they know I'm finding a job at the moment.
So they're just asking how's that process going?
And I said, oh, I sent out a few, but nothing much.
And they're like, oh, okay.
So what are you doing now?
And I finally shared with them, oh, I'm doing this podcast.
I'm doing that.
And it was my spare time.
Well, not spare time.
It's just my time now.
See, we are going that way.
Okay.
And they're like, oh, okay.
So you're not actually not doing anything.
You are doing something.
You are growing in that sense that this podcast will help you grow more as a person and help
others as well.
Yeah, perhaps.
And hopefully, yeah, hopefully just not do any harm, honestly.
Yeah.
And just other stuff, like, for example, running or like exercising.
Yeah.
That's something that I'm doing.
Yeah.
They're like, oh, so you are doing something.
You're not just resting at home and completely withdrawing with everything.
Yeah.
And then even spending time with my friends and they're like, oh, so you are spending
time with your friends and that's nice.
And they're very supportive.
And I'm just, honestly, I'm very appreciative of them and thankful for them being so supportive.
Yeah.
My parents said the same thing.
They're like, which surprised me?
They said, take your time.
No rush.
But I think it's just, I already internalized it.
You better find a job soon.
I think it's hard to assume where they're coming from.
So I just take it as it is and not assuming more about it.
Because if I do assume it, I will go down that spiral.
But what's your thought on people, it's not only your parents, but like other people asking
you, oh, have you found a job yet?
How's your feeling towards that?
Actually it depends on the person.
If I'm closer with them, I feel like I'm a bit more comfortable.
I'll just say, stop asking.
I'll tell you when I get a job.
Yeah.
I think that's not my parents.
I think my parents, I'll just tell them, whatever.
The people who are less close with, they ask.
I think I just assume that they're coming from caring.
Yeah, of course.
But it's just very, I think every time they ask, I feel ashamed.
Yeah.
I gotcha.
Okay.
I don't know if the audience knew that I gotcha.
I'm sure some other people cannot find a job.
We'll feel the same way.
Yeah, we'll feel the same way.
Yeah.
I feel ashamed of saying, oh, I'm, it's just, yeah.
Because I'm, I can't find a job, so I feel very ashamed of it.
Yeah.
It feels like, oh, maybe in their eyes, there's something wrong with me.
I'm not good enough.
But to be honest, I don't think that about myself.
I just feel like other people might perceive that way.
So I was like, I just laugh at all.
It's like, oh, I haven't, haven't found it.
Yeah.
I'm unemployed.
I've got a lot of free time.
I like stuff like that.
That's your coping mechanism.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I agree.
I think most of the people have good intentions of just catching up and stuff.
Yeah.
And people I know, they keep asking, oh, any updates on job hunting?
And I think different people take it differently.
For you, you might think of how they perceive you.
But for me, I internalize it and I blame on myself.
I'm like, oh, I'm useless.
I already got my master, but still can't find a full-time job.
But then what makes a difference is how you talk yourself out of it.
Like not being too harsh on yourself and appreciate what you're doing.
Right.
You, I'm doing a podcast.
I'm growing, you know, I'm getting a driver license because I don't know if it's different
from different states and country as well.
But in Queensland, if you're under 25, you need to call it a hundred hours and hold that
learner's drivers for a year.
So it's, and a lot of jobs, especially counseling requires a license, no license, don't even
come in for an interview.
Well, that's what the interviewer said.
I feel like you're saying it to me.
I don't have my driver license.
No, that's what the interviewer told me through the phone.
Word by word.
But it's an organization policy that if you don't have a license, you cannot come in for
an interview.
So if I am taking active steps to collect the hours and getting a license, I am taking
active steps to look for volunteering work.
I am taking active steps to grow by doing this podcast.
And I think because how I wired my brain when I was young that carries on to now that I
need to make more deliberate effort in reminding myself and answering back my own criticism.
I think that's my way of handling it.
It's not easy, but you need to keep telling yourself that to avoid going downhill.
So I think my takeaway compared to yours is very different.
You worry how people perceive you.
I self sabotage myself.
They're both not healthy.
It doesn't really get comparison.
No, that's not good and bad.
They're both bad.
They're both unhelpful.
Yeah, but I think it's very healthy to talk it out and I'm sure audience might feel the
same way.
And hopefully our experience or our perspective can help some people as well.
Yeah.
So when do you kind of go through, go down that spiral of like these unhelpful beliefs?
Is it more like when you do job search or when does it usually occur?
I think it's a future cycle.
When I bumped into this post-graduation stress term, I realized that's a term called job
search fatigue and I really resonate with it.
I go on cycle from motivated to or stress on sending out resume and cover letter to
hopeful and excitement when I got a call from them and then disappointment because I don't
even get a chance to interview because I don't have a license or disappointment because I
went for an interview and I didn't hear anything back.
And then in between the interview and rejection, I was kind of motivated and I'm quite hopeful.
But then once I got rejected, I'm back into that stress mode of I need to keep finding
a job.
I got rejected and you find more so I can get more opportunity.
And I think that cycle of keep applying and rejecting is what it means to job search fatigue.
Yeah.
I would say it's quite common for people who are looking for a job.
Would you agree or you have a different experience?
I agree that that cycle is, it's just very disappointing.
It's disappointing and very exhausting and having going through that experience over
and over again.
As you said, if you feel as a cycle, it will just keep going the same thing.
And it's hard to see a way out.
And now applying for jobs is not easy.
It's not just cover letter and resume.
You have to answer like two, three pages of questions.
It's like doing an assignment.
Yeah, right.
And I think I've talked to a person, a friend, she's also applying for jobs and she's on
the way to sending out her first, applying for her first job.
She's written her cover letter.
She's written her resume.
Yeah.
It's all there.
She uploaded it and then there's a lot of questions.
And once she saw the first question, she gave up.
I mean, she didn't give up.
She just avoided it for a while.
She opened a lot of tabs, but then she just, okay, she's going to pause that for a second
and went to do other stuff like Netflix or whatnot.
And I think those questions is, I think we feel as a task.
That's why it's so challenging and we want it to be perfect as well.
It's just very stressful in getting that answer out.
That's why I think even for my friend, she just stopped at that point.
I honestly feel for her, it's the same for I'm sure a lot of people as well.
Yeah.
And even when I'm responding, I understand where she's coming from.
And just honestly talking about it, it's very easy.
For example, her question was, already see yourself 10 years in time, in this field.
And I just gave her a random answer that I thought of on spot.
And obviously saying it is very easy, but honestly putting it into words and making
it perfect, that's what is stressful.
Yes, exactly.
And the word needs to be professional and perfect phrasing as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, I do feel for her as well.
Yeah.
And I feel for you, honestly.
No, yeah, I feel for you too.
No, like so do I, everyone.
I feel like it's my responsibility to do it, but also at the same time, that doesn't mean
you can't have some self-compassion for yourself.
I think that's no either this or that.
I think it can be both at the same time, back to that balance.
And it's not just getting rejected.
Like the feedback that the interviewer give it back to you is, we have found someone that
is more experienced and-
There's nothing you can do about that experience.
Yeah, like there's always someone that have more experience than you.
All you can do is get more experience.
But then by then, if you apply for other jobs, there's always people saying, oh, we found
someone more experienced.
Yeah, it's a hard thing to overcome because there's nothing much we can change about the
experience, years of experience.
That's how we, there's only so much that we have experience on.
And we can't lie about it, obviously.
But I'm very hopeful that a job will come to you, a job will come to me, a job will
come to everyone who's finding a job at the moment.
I'm very hopeful in the sense where a right job will come to me.
Although I'm not very picky, but at the same time, I do get bored of stuff very easily.
And I, but then getting used to a place is very, it takes a long time for me as well.
Finding that right fit is more important.
And I think that's a very good reminder because once you into that process for a while, you
slowly lower your standard.
You just feel like, oh, I just want a job.
But then what if there's something that you're not interested in or you, that's no point
that you get a job and then quit afterwards.
So yes, I think it's a good reminder of knowing what you enjoy and what kind of jobs that
you are interested in.
So I think giving yourself permission to be picky is healthy sort of way.
And I'm very privileged in the sense where I can think like this as well.
So like if it's more practical side where you really have to pay the rent and it's very
immediate that you need money right from the start, then obviously you have to lower your
standard and that's a realistic goal or realistic thing that you have to do for yourself.
And I think you're going to do what you need to do to survive.
And for say, I'm pet sitting, like I'm a pet sitter.
I've talked to some of my friends and some of them might not understand and they laugh
like, oh, you did a whole degree just to walk dogs or I know they're like in a joke joking
way, but that's what I want to tell everyone as well.
Giving your friends some compassion as well.
Some people, we just need to get a job.
Doesn't need to relate it to your degree to pay rent to survive.
And there's no job beneath you.
Honestly.
Do whatever that you have to do because there is a need for each job and we all need to
respect.
Yeah, we all need to respect it.
Exactly.
And I think this hot, this episode sounds like we are ranting on like how we couldn't
get a job, but I think what's more important that we both mentioned closer to an end is
how to manage those threats is to give ourselves some compassion.
Normalize is actually okay to take a while to get a job.
It's okay to feel lost.
And if you do feel like you won't need help, seek help.
I remember that you're running your own race.
It's not, it's easy for us to compare with other people, but they're running their race
and you're running yours.
And if you run their race, you won't get to where you want to be.
Yes.
I love how we've now secretly joining the analogy team.
Slowly converting me to the analogy team.
Okay.
And yeah.
And adding onto that, what you experienced as well, what I experienced, I think talking
to another person, talking to a friend really helps us in not going to that spiral.
Yeah.
I'm feeling a bit less lonely and relate with to each other.
That's what the whole podcast is.
Yeah, exactly.
And again, like if you have those unhelpful belief like me, self-sabotage and criticizing
myself, challenging those thoughts, talking back to yourself, fighting back, say that
is not true.
You are working really hard already in tiny steps.
What looks like tiny steps can be a big steps as well.
So challenging those thoughts, loving yourself because we all deserve to be loved.
We all do.
I'm just voicing it to myself.
Can you feel that?
Yes, I can.
That's why I'm laughing.
And talk to your friend, talk to yourself if you don't want to seek help.
That still works.
Yeah.
Obviously it's better to talk to another person because another person will provide a different
perspective.
And yeah, so I think this is it for today that we talk about postgraduate stress and
you can do some self-reflection on if you want, like for example, if you're undergrad
or postgrad doesn't matter, if you want to continue to study further studies or find
a job and like what works for you.
And also what are some things that you go through when you're job seeking?
Is it more about the job search fatigue and how you can actually get out of that cycle
as well?
Yeah.
And for everyone who are listening that also struggle to find a job, I'm sure there's
something great ahead waiting for you.
Yeah, definitely.
And also reflect on how you manage it currently and perhaps finding more effective ways.
So thank you, Nat, for sticking with us.
So do you.
Yep.
And thank you, Lesna, for sticking with us as well and listening to us talk about our
postgraduate stress and hopefully, well, I don't hope you resonate with it, but if you
do, you can resonate with it.
Yeah, true.
That is true.
Stress could be a good thing as well.
And we will release a new episode every Wednesday at 4 a.m. AESD time.
And in the meantime, if you want to check us out, our Instagram handle is the Y in your
twenties podcast and we'll see you next Wednesday.
Bye Buh-bye.