1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,960 Welcome to our podcast, The Why in the 20s. 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:09,960 My name is Viv. 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:10,960 And I'm Nat. 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:16,280 We are two counselors in our mid-20s navigating our adulthood away from our home country, 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:22,920 exploring the why questions we encounter relating to relationships, identities, and uncertainties. 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,720 So whether you're listening to our podcast while going for your walk or doing your chores, 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:37,080 welcome on board and let the journey begin. 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,840 Welcome back to another episode of The Why in your 20s. 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:40,840 So Nat, how are you feeling? 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:41,840 I'm good. 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:42,840 You're good? 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:43,840 It's so hot out here. 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:44,840 It's really hot. 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,200 It's a very, very hot day. 15 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,280 And you wouldn't imagine it to be like this in this month, right? 16 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,680 Yeah, a month. 17 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:53,840 We sound so Australian. 18 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,280 We start the conversation by talking about the weather. 19 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:57,880 Oh, is that Australian? 20 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,680 Yeah, I think that's what the stereotypical thought on Australians as well. 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,000 Like, we thought how you're doing talking about the weather and then... 22 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,800 Oh, I didn't know that was... 23 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:08,800 That was... 24 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,800 When you do it in Hong Kong, like... 25 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,800 It's just awkward. 26 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,080 I don't think people care enough to talk about it. 27 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,600 Yeah, that's why I say it's such an Australian way. 28 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,680 Oh, no, but today's a good day. 29 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:20,680 March 17th. 30 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:21,680 It's my mom's birthday. 31 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:22,680 Oh, happy birthday to your mom! 32 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:23,680 That's you if she listens to it or not. 33 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:24,680 But I'm not sure if she listens to it or not. 34 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,680 Yeah, well, happy birthday, mom. 35 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,360 Why are you calling her mom? 36 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:31,360 It's not your mom. 37 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:32,360 Oh, Viv, mom. 38 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:38,760 And anyway, I hope the listeners are doing well as well. 39 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:44,320 I hope you all have a great week and did a bit of reflection on our previous episode 40 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:45,320 as well. 41 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:48,960 So yeah, anyway, what are we talking today, Viv? 42 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:54,160 Yeah, we do talk about grief and loss in this episode, which we know it could be distressing 43 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,300 for some. 44 00:01:55,300 --> 00:02:00,680 And if you do need resources or any other support, you can go to beyondblue.org or 45 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:07,660 there are 24 free counseling in Australia and the number for Lifeline is 131114. 46 00:02:07,660 --> 00:02:09,920 And please look after yourself. 47 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:13,200 If you want to avoid today's content, please do so. 48 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:14,200 Skip today's episode. 49 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:15,200 That's totally okay. 50 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,440 And yeah, why don't we just dive right in into today's topic? 51 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:20,440 Yeah. 52 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:21,440 Yes. 53 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,960 Yeah, so today's topic is grief and loss again. 54 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,120 And what do you think loss is to you, Nat? 55 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,520 I think it's more than just people dying, for sure. 56 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:38,440 I used to think, you know, loss and grief, you immediately link to someone pass away. 57 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:46,840 But I think it's a lot more once I have more experience in my loss in my life. 58 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:53,640 It can be the loss of something or someone that might not actually pass away, but just 59 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:54,960 you disconnect with them. 60 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,720 I think that's part of the loss as well. 61 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,440 And we should not disregard it. 62 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,800 It can be so much more than just a person passing away. 63 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:04,800 Yes, absolutely. 64 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:12,200 It could be things that you've owned or memories that you had or like a French, it doesn't 65 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,680 have to be very tangible. 66 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,880 Or even like societal wise, like COVID can be a huge loss for everyone as well. 67 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,640 And never underestimate that part as well. 68 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:30,920 Yeah, and COVID leads to even more losses, for example, jobs, security, financial security, 69 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:32,280 and all that. 70 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,400 One loss can lead to even more. 71 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:35,400 Yeah. 72 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,760 And the most recent one we have in Brisbane is the flood as well. 73 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,120 I know we are complaining about the weather, but I'm glad we're not having the flood this 74 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,120 year. 75 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,120 For sure. 76 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,960 It's definitely a, I think we should be very thankful for that. 77 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:50,960 It's a good weather. 78 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 79 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:52,960 Yeah. 80 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,580 Today we're going to share mainly the two losses in our lives. 81 00:03:57,580 --> 00:04:02,240 One is our first memory of loss and the second one is most significant loss. 82 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:07,360 And this exercise is something that we did in our master's degree. 83 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:14,320 Judith asked us to share three losses, three main losses in our lives and just having that 84 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,320 companion to talk to. 85 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,520 Yeah, Judith is a lecturer, in case you don't know. 86 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:21,520 She's awesome. 87 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:22,520 I miss her. 88 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:23,520 She's great. 89 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:24,520 She's awesome. 90 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:25,520 Yeah. 91 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:26,520 Anyways, yeah. 92 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:32,180 So she asked us, one of the exercises she asked us to do is this, sharing our experiences 93 00:04:32,180 --> 00:04:35,720 of loss to a trusted person. 94 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,760 I personally found it very helpful. 95 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:38,760 In what way? 96 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:45,240 Because I don't think I've ever actually dived into sharing with someone else about 97 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:52,240 the loss and going so thoroughly, like our experiences, how we cope with it, just in 98 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,120 general, the whole experience itself. 99 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,000 I don't think I've ever had that opportunity to do so. 100 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,560 Yeah, I agree. 101 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,640 And I think it's so interesting because when I talk to another person about all these questions, 102 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,880 their answer actually really surprised me. 103 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,760 And I've never think that way as well. 104 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,640 That gives me a different perspective of loss. 105 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,880 And I think because we're studying counselling, it helps us to broaden that perspective and 106 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,200 insight of what loss is. 107 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,800 Because before I study psychology, I would think loss is just someone passing away. 108 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,880 And I'm really thankful that my study gives me different insights on that as well. 109 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:37,320 So I think that this exercise really helped us while we both choose to do it with the 110 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,320 audience as well. 111 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,160 Hopefully you feel the same way as us. 112 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,480 Yeah, and I do look forward to today's episode because previously I didn't do it with you. 113 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:46,480 I did it with someone else. 114 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,480 And you did it with someone else too. 115 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,480 And I think us talking about it might have a different perspective as well. 116 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,160 Another interesting conversation, I can see it. 117 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,160 You can foresee it? 118 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,160 I can foresee it. 119 00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:59,520 I think the same as well. 120 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,440 That's why we're doing this right now. 121 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:07,720 Anyway, we can kick start with what are your first memories of loss? 122 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,920 Yeah, I think personally I don't have... 123 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,000 It was very hard for me to think of one, honestly. 124 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:21,040 Because I don't have much memory of mainly just loss in general. 125 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,200 Because I think it's just easy to forget it. 126 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,440 But I do actually have a funny story after thinking about it. 127 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,520 So it's not really my memory per se. 128 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:35,240 It's more like people telling me this happened and it just stuck with me because it's a funny 129 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,240 story. 130 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:37,240 I'm ready. 131 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:38,240 I'm ready to laugh. 132 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:39,240 I feel like I'm building it up. 133 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,240 I think you'll get disappointed. 134 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:41,240 It's quite normal. 135 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:53,120 Well, I have a pretty low standard so you're better. 136 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,960 I would say I was in kindergarten or grade one, two. 137 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,280 I was pretty young at that time. 138 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:04,120 And I was with my domestic helper. 139 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,120 I think I was on the way to school, just on the way to somewhere. 140 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,760 And as a kid, I loved eating candies like a lot of other kids. 141 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:13,760 And she gave me one. 142 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:14,760 There was only one. 143 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,080 And I was so, yay! 144 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,200 I was so happy that she gave it to me. 145 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:20,200 And I dropped it. 146 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,200 Oh no! 147 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,280 I dropped it. 148 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,560 And I was crying and bawling my eyes out. 149 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,560 And then what my helper did was she picked it up from the floor and she just blew on 150 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,080 the candy like twice and she just gave it to me. 151 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,440 And the funny thing is I don't remember it, but it's just like another mom. 152 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,240 Like another mom. 153 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:49,280 My mom's friend, she saw it and she found that very weird because it's unsanitary to 154 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:50,280 do so. 155 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,200 So she complained it to my mom. 156 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,360 And then my mom told me about it. 157 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:55,880 That's why I was like, oh. 158 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,040 My mom didn't find anything weird about it. 159 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,160 If she's crying, just give her whatever she wants. 160 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,440 Especially if it's just a piece of candy, a piece of dirty candy. 161 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:09,240 So you didn't lose anything in the story? 162 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:14,080 Yes, I lost candy, but it was just given to me very, very quickly. 163 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:15,400 Oh, so that moment. 164 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,360 Yeah, it was a loss, but I don't think I had any time to grieve because it was given to 165 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,960 me right away. 166 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:23,960 I hyped it too much. 167 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:31,680 I was trying to find what's funny in it. 168 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,480 I just found it very funny because who would cry over a candy, first of all? 169 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,480 No, but you're a kid. 170 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,200 Yeah, I think I was actually bawling my eyes out. 171 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,000 It was just not a normal cry. 172 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,560 It wasn't like a fake cry like a lot of kids do. 173 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:47,560 Yeah. 174 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:51,000 But you never know, it might be a fake cry. 175 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,680 I mean, usually if it's a fake cry, there are no tears. 176 00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:55,680 Usually you can see that. 177 00:08:55,680 --> 00:09:01,240 But for me, I felt like the world was taken from me. 178 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,080 Because candy is your whole world. 179 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,600 Yeah, at that moment, yes. 180 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:06,600 I can still feel it. 181 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,760 I think I would still feel the same even up till now. 182 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,960 Like if I drop a piece of candy or something that I really want to eat, I think I would 183 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:15,960 just be very, very sad. 184 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:16,960 That is true. 185 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,960 Especially if you are really hungry, I dropped my dinner once. 186 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:22,960 Devastated. 187 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:31,040 Even one time, my cousin, she likes eating the meatball spaghetti. 188 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,400 She would eat the spaghetti first and then leave the meatballs at the end. 189 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,000 But then she was in a restaurant, so the waiter didn't know and they just took it away. 190 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000 No way. 191 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,000 And she was crying. 192 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000 I understand. 193 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,000 I understand that. 194 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,240 It was so sad, like why would the waiter take it away? 195 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:49,240 It's the meatballs. 196 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:50,240 It's the meat thing. 197 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,240 I want to lick the whole plate. 198 00:09:52,240 --> 00:10:00,640 Don't dare to take it away. 199 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,160 But yeah, that was my first memory of loss. 200 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:09,360 Kind of loss and not really grieving, but it was just my first memory of it. 201 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,360 What about you? 202 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,000 Do you remember your first loss? 203 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,880 Mine is not that funny. 204 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:16,880 Was it funny? 205 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:17,880 It's okay. 206 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:28,680 No, mine, because as I mentioned before, my memory of loss is just people passing away. 207 00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:35,680 So I don't recall anything specifically on I lost food or I'm pretty sure maybe I lost 208 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:41,480 a tooth or something else if I really have to think deep into it. 209 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:50,080 But if you ask me my first memory of loss, then I would say my relative passing away 210 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,920 and the awareness of that person is not in the world anymore. 211 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,840 Like it's either gone into another world or just non exist, you know. 212 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:05,120 But yeah, I think it's the same as death that we taught in previous episode is you just 213 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,040 don't feel much because it's for this maybe really quick for you. 214 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:14,920 Or it's just the first experience for me that I don't feel much about it. 215 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:21,360 Or maybe I'm not as close to the person as the other losses that I have experienced after. 216 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,800 Do you remember how you found out that your uncle passed away? 217 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:33,520 My parents told me and I should don't remember my reaction, but I think my parents would 218 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,880 be more emotional than me. 219 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,360 Yeah, so I don't have much emotions around. 220 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:45,040 I just feel oh, it's my first experience someone passed away. 221 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,120 Because I think some of my friends told me, you know, that your grandparents passed away 222 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,760 and I don't have that experience, but thankfully at that time, so it's more curious. 223 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,360 Oh, someone I know passed away. 224 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,200 But of course, I'm not as reflective as I am now. 225 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,080 Like I was just a kid. 226 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,720 I won't think, oh, how am I feeling now? 227 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,080 It's just an incident. 228 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,440 Yeah. 229 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,080 So it wasn't very impactful, but it was just something that happened. 230 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:18,960 Didn't really affect you in the sense where you had much like a really big reaction, either 231 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:19,960 positive or negative. 232 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:20,960 It was very neutral. 233 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:21,960 Yeah. 234 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,440 And I think the society has put a certain idea that people die, you have to cry, we 235 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,240 have to be sad. 236 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,360 And I think I'm not sure if it's the first one or other relatives of mine passed away. 237 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,240 And if I don't cry, I feel weak. 238 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,240 I'm like, oh, am I cold hearted? 239 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,120 But it doesn't work that way. 240 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:49,040 I realized later onwards that there's a lot of ways to express your emotions than just 241 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,760 crying. 242 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,040 And I think loss doesn't, it has big losses and small losses. 243 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:59,920 So it doesn't have to be every loss is, you know, pouring your tears and yeah. 244 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:05,160 Yeah, I agree, the society does put a lot of expectations of how we have to react to 245 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,120 certain losses, especially when someone passed away. 246 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,920 You have to be crying at the funeral or else, as you said, very cold hearted. 247 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,520 You don't care. 248 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:19,160 You're not paying your respects to the person who passed away and all that. 249 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,840 And there is a certain expectations, a certain expectation from the society itself. 250 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,760 And you have to behave a certain way. 251 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,520 Yeah, yeah, I agree. 252 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,440 And I think it's similar for me. 253 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:39,040 Like, as you said, I think personally, similar to you, I do relate to grief and loss to people 254 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:40,800 passing away. 255 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,800 And I think personally for me, that is most significant at the moment. 256 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,840 So for me personally, the most significant loss was my grandma passing away. 257 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,560 And I still get affected by it from time to time. 258 00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:56,720 So why it was so significant for me? 259 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,880 It wasn't the first relative that passed away. 260 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,400 My grandma, my grandpa passed away first when I was younger. 261 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:04,840 Didn't feel much from it. 262 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:12,800 But when my grandma passed away, it really hit me very hard because I was in uni. 263 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,280 It happened during November time. 264 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:21,360 So I went back to Hong Kong for a while and then I traveled to Korea to visit my sister. 265 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:27,840 And it was a trip where I went with my dad first, and then he leaves earlier because 266 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:33,120 of work and I could stay behind and then just enjoy my time with my sister. 267 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,080 And it's the first time I could actually have a vacation with my sister. 268 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,120 And I was very excited about that. 269 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:46,120 But on a Saturday, my dad went back to Hong Kong and it was a very late night. 270 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,960 And I had a simple dinner with my sister and then we slept. 271 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,160 And on Sunday, we were getting ready to go to church, to her church. 272 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:58,040 And we got a, from what I can remember, we got a call from my mom. 273 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,240 My sister got a call from my mom. 274 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:00,960 I was still kind of sleeping. 275 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,920 My sister was getting ready and I was sleeping. 276 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,760 And there was something about my grandma, she tripped. 277 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,360 I think it was like tripped or just fell or something like that. 278 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,940 And she went into the hospital and it was very serious. 279 00:15:16,940 --> 00:15:23,840 So I think when my sister heard it, immediately she was like, okay, let's buy a ticket back 280 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:24,840 to Hong Kong. 281 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:25,840 Yeah. 282 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,360 She made the decision very quickly and I was still in shock at that moment. 283 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:31,700 I didn't know what to do. 284 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:37,680 And then she told me, okay, get your dirty laundry from the washing machine and then 285 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,200 put it all in your luggage. 286 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,680 And then we're going to go get a cab and go to the airport and then buy the plane tickets 287 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:45,680 on the way. 288 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,160 So yeah, I immediately listened to her, like whatever she said, I just did it. 289 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:56,520 And if we were on the cab, she was buying the plane tickets with my computer and I was 290 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,820 at the back and I remember not feeling much, honestly. 291 00:16:00,820 --> 00:16:02,080 I was very anxious. 292 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,840 Oh my goodness. 293 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,080 Is she going to really pass away or is there hope that she'll be fine? 294 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,080 And side note, during that trip, one of the things that I wanted to do was just record 295 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,080 everything. 296 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,080 Yeah. 297 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,240 Film everything and then edit afterwards. 298 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,080 So even on the cab, I remember I was filming. 299 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,360 I just had my camera on recording. 300 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,600 At that moment, I think I felt the same way as that, okay, the society actually expects 301 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,520 you to be crying. 302 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:31,520 My sister was crying. 303 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:32,520 Yeah. 304 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,560 And I think I felt that, oh, I should be crying. 305 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,000 I should feel more instead of just recording. 306 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,520 What kind of person will record this journey? 307 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,400 And I was just thinking to myself, what is wrong with me? 308 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,040 Because I shouldn't be reacting that way. 309 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,440 At that moment, I felt like that. 310 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,920 Now looking back, I think it was just how I coped with it. 311 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:52,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 312 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,680 But at that moment, I felt that way and I just turned it off. 313 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:02,000 And the entire way back to Hong Kong, I think we were just very tired as well so we could 314 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,000 sleep. 315 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,000 Yeah. 316 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,480 So before we got on the plane, my mom told us, okay, just tell the flight attendants 317 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,840 that, okay, we have to get to the hospital very, very soon, as fast as we can. 318 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,120 So then they might allow us to get off the plane, the first person to get off the plane 319 00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:19,040 after the first class people. 320 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,040 I don't think that helped. 321 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,720 The flight attendant didn't really let us go first. 322 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,880 But the people beside us were very nice and they told us to go first. 323 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,160 Perhaps I think the flight attendant didn't have that power to do so. 324 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,320 It's just the customers were very nice. 325 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:35,320 They're very understanding. 326 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,320 Yeah, they're very nice. 327 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:37,320 Exactly. 328 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:42,080 And when we got off the plane, everything, because I checked in my luggage and we were 329 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,440 like, okay, let's, I don't know why we said, okay, let's wait for 10 minutes and see if 330 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:47,440 we can get our luggage. 331 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,920 But honestly, we can just leave it there and then we can go back to get it the next day 332 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:52,920 or whatever. 333 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:53,920 Yeah. 334 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:54,920 But I think at that time we were... 335 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,040 I think everything is so messy and it's just a shock for both of you. 336 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,800 So you don't really have that mental capacity to make decisions. 337 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:03,800 Yeah. 338 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,080 I think, like my mom told us to just leave, don't wait for it. 339 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,960 But I don't think we realized how serious it was. 340 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,400 So we just waited. 341 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,960 We said, okay, let's wait for 10 minutes. 342 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,400 If it doesn't come, it doesn't come. 343 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:16,400 It will leave. 344 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,400 Yeah. 345 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:18,400 Obviously it didn't come. 346 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:19,400 It didn't come. 347 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,560 So we just left and we ran to the taxi stand or the cab stand or whatever you want to call 348 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:25,560 it. 349 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,560 It was a very long line. 350 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:31,400 So we told the people saying, like one of the workers, they're saying, oh, can we just 351 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:32,400 go? 352 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:33,880 We want to go to this place. 353 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:34,880 Can you do something about it? 354 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:35,880 Yeah. 355 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,920 So we told them, oh, we're going to go to the hospital. 356 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,280 And I think the person was very understanding as well. 357 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,360 So, okay, you need to go to this hospital. 358 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,800 Okay, just go to the front, front of the line, tell the driver. 359 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:46,800 And then we're like, okay, thank you. 360 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,800 We were very appreciative of her. 361 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:50,800 Thank you, thank you. 362 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,480 And then we just ran to the front. 363 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,440 But the other people there, I don't think they understood because they didn't hear it. 364 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,400 They don't know why we're doing that, right? 365 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,440 We're just like two young kids just doing whatever we want in their eyes. 366 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,440 So one of them just said, what are you doing lined up as expected? 367 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,880 And we told them, oh, we're going to, we have to go to the hospital and they're like, oh, 368 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:10,880 okay, okay. 369 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,680 And then they really, they're very understanding as well. 370 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,560 I think the entire journey, like people were very understanding, which is very unexpected. 371 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,720 I think in Hong Kong, I just didn't expect that. 372 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,520 But everyone was very understanding. 373 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,720 And we got on the, we got on the taxi and then we rushed there. 374 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:33,400 We saw my mom, aunts, uncles, my dad, and they took us to our grandma on the bed and 375 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,160 she was a bit responsive. 376 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:42,980 She could make like little sounds here and there, like just a bit moaning kind of thing. 377 00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:46,800 So I think that was like her last moments and we actually got to see her for the last 378 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:47,800 moment. 379 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,920 And I think at that moment, I just felt like she knows we're there. 380 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,120 She, like when we're talking to her, it feels like she knows we're there. 381 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:59,640 Maybe not, but I think that gives me a bit of peace that she knows we care so much about 382 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,960 her that we came back from another country. 383 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,960 And honestly, some of my other aunts, they couldn't make it because they were also traveling. 384 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:07,960 They were in Japan. 385 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,480 They're also the same thing. 386 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,000 They went through the same thing as us, but they, because I think for them, they couldn't 387 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,320 get the earliest flight. 388 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,960 They couldn't see my grandma for the last time. 389 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,600 I think for me, I'm very thankful that I could see my grandma for the last time. 390 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,120 But at the same time, yeah, when I got there, my dad asked me, do I have anything to say 391 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:32,280 to my grandma if there is, like say it or else. 392 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,840 I mean, they didn't say or else, but they just told me to say it. 393 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,000 And I just looked at him and I'm like, no, there's nothing I want to say. 394 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,360 But I think at that moment, like somebody in my head was saying like, just give her 395 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,000 a kiss, but I didn't do it. 396 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:49,760 I think I was just very aware of what other people might think if I do it or whatnot. 397 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,280 I think to this moment, I still regret not doing it. 398 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,680 I don't think it makes a difference for her, but perhaps I think it's more for me, it's 399 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,200 a closure kind of thing. 400 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,200 Yeah. 401 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,920 So that's the story of my significant loss. 402 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:08,040 Even hearing that or saying that I think it's still very impactful for me. 403 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:13,160 And obviously because it's your grandma and I will assume you are very close to her, that 404 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,760 makes it more significant than other loss that you have. 405 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:17,760 Yeah. 406 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:23,200 I would say is it because the regret of not having a goodbye kiss or saying thanks to 407 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:28,120 your grandma that you can't have that closure and makes it more significant to you? 408 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,520 I think it definitely does add on to it. 409 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,320 And I would say also the regret of not spending more time with her, even though I see her 410 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,760 honestly once every week for sure. 411 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,680 But I do compare with my other cousins or my sister where my grandma took care of them 412 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,640 when they were kids and I was the only one my grandma did not take care of. 413 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,680 And I wish I had that. 414 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,960 So it's like some things here and there is like, oh, I wish this could have happened, 415 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:55,960 this could have happened. 416 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,560 And it's just coming to the sense of where it's never going to happen. 417 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,280 It's like a lot of what if, but also fully aware that you cannot complete those things 418 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,640 because your grandma already passed away. 419 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:09,640 There's no take two. 420 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,720 Yeah, definitely. 421 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,080 I think it's a very different loss to other losses in my life. 422 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:21,200 I think the intensity of it, the impact of it was very hard. 423 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:27,560 And I honestly, I didn't expect that perhaps maybe because it was a very unexpected death. 424 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:28,560 That's why I was so impactful. 425 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,120 But at the same time, I think there are too many factors over it that just made it made 426 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,400 it more impactful than I thought it would be. 427 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,800 So it's because it's very sudden that you are not mentally prepared for it. 428 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:41,800 Yeah. 429 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:47,840 And because obviously there were some issues in her body or something like that, but it 430 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:53,880 wasn't so serious that she was always in the hospital. 431 00:22:53,880 --> 00:23:01,920 She was able to live normally, going to like getting groceries, cooking and doing all kinds 432 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,760 of things like hanging out with friends, playing mahjong with her friends and stuff like that. 433 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,960 So it was a very, yeah, that may have been a very sudden, a very sudden loss. 434 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:11,960 Yeah. 435 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:19,040 Do you reckon there's other aspects that contribute to the intensity of that loss? 436 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:25,160 One thing was that I wasn't able to, I feel like I wasn't able to openly talk about it 437 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,040 with my family because I know it was very impactful for my mom, for sure. 438 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,040 It was her mom. 439 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,260 So we didn't really talk about it. 440 00:23:32,260 --> 00:23:36,080 It's more about the logistics of it. 441 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,400 And that's how we cope with it. 442 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,040 I would say it was more avoidance. 443 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,600 And then now, yeah, a few years down the road, that's when I could reflect on it and kind 444 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,520 of go through all the events that led up to it. 445 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:55,720 Like when I was in Korea, on the plane, on her bedside and all that, it's just going 446 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:56,720 through that. 447 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:02,720 It took me a few years to kind of going back to it and reveal all those events, all those 448 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,720 feelings. 449 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:04,720 Yeah. 450 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,380 And I'm just curious because I know you have shared this story with your own companion 451 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:12,360 when you were doing this exercise two years ago. 452 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:17,080 Is there any difference compared to now that you share with me? 453 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,160 Definitely so. 454 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,560 And again, a lot of factors played into it. 455 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:26,400 And one of them is because I did a Vs Zoom previously, and it was the first time of actually 456 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,720 saying it to people that I've met only for a few months. 457 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:36,320 I would say some people that I'm not super, super close with. 458 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:43,600 And at the moment, I don't think I could actually go through as detailed as I did just now. 459 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:49,320 It's interesting because sometimes we need witness to moving forward to that grieving 460 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,120 process. 461 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:59,320 And maybe for you is talking to different people and vocalizing your loss as well. 462 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,000 You say that helps you grieve about the loss. 463 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,840 It definitely helps with the grieving process. 464 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,160 There are different things that helped me, but I think one of the things is just forcing 465 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,320 it out and not just thinking in my head or even just writing it down. 466 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,120 It's still very different. 467 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:17,120 Yeah. 468 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:21,480 Anyways, yeah, that was one of my most significant loss. 469 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,960 And I would say it's a very common loss. 470 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,920 A lot of people would think, oh, what's my most significant loss? 471 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,800 And they would immediately go to a person passing away or someone that they care about 472 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,320 passing away. 473 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:35,960 Was that similar for you? 474 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,400 Well, before that, thank you for sharing. 475 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,280 I think it's being vulnerable to share is not an easy thing. 476 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,520 For me is different. 477 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:51,080 I do remember my grandmother passed away and it's very significant to me. 478 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,000 But at that time, I'm still quite young. 479 00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:01,040 And maybe because I have grieved for it that I, I think I would be confident to say I complete 480 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:10,240 that grieving process that I feel less significant as the other loss that I experienced recently. 481 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,360 I do think the loss that I had previously is significant, but because the loss that 482 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,840 I'm going to shed is I'm still going through it. 483 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:24,360 So at this moment is very significant to me from my perspective. 484 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:28,440 So my most significant loss is my home. 485 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:36,080 The home that I've lived for 20 years in my life because my family is moving countries. 486 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:41,080 And for me, it's the loss of the life that I thought I would have. 487 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,160 So where it started is I didn't know my parents going to sell the house. 488 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,140 And the moment when they told us is during COVID period. 489 00:26:50,140 --> 00:26:52,760 So I was not able to travel back home. 490 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:58,780 And it's quite sad to me because I've lived there for 20 years, I think. 491 00:26:58,780 --> 00:26:59,960 And there's nothing I can do. 492 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:05,560 My dad tried to make videos and trying to keep that memory for us. 493 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:12,000 But I think it feels different if you're in person and say it, see it for the last time. 494 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:18,280 The last time I lived in that house is before COVID and I was not expecting COVID to last 495 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,920 that long. 496 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:25,120 So I thought I would still go back and I left the house with no expectation that that's 497 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:26,740 my last time. 498 00:27:26,740 --> 00:27:30,080 So I don't think it's a I'm not satisfied with it personally. 499 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,280 I think I wish I can see it for the last time. 500 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,520 Because of restrictions and also my study, I have work as well. 501 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,560 So it's not that easy for me to just say go home and quarantine. 502 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:49,700 So for me, it's very sad to not see it for the last time until there's some changes because 503 00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:54,780 of my parents' plan that actually I managed to see it for the last time. 504 00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:57,520 So it's unfortunate that things happened. 505 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,080 But also I'm very thankful and grateful that I can get home, help my parents to pack and 506 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,320 see it for the last time. 507 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,120 For me, it really helps me that grieving process. 508 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:11,400 And I know I shouldn't compare it. 509 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,280 But I'm sure it will make a whole difference for you as well. 510 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,840 If you didn't make it in time to see your grandma for the last time, it will make a 511 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,720 whole lot different. 512 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:28,360 So for me, being there really helps that grieving process of losing my place includes more than 513 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:32,680 just the house, but also the memory that I have in the house. 514 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,240 You know, different corners, you have like different memories and going back, taking 515 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:44,520 pictures really helped me to start that grieving process and be present and feel my feelings. 516 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,760 And I really agree with what you said previously on vocalizing that grief. 517 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:55,840 Because I post some pictures on my Instagram and it really helps me when I'm writing that 518 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,400 post and making sense of what's happening, even if it's just a short description. 519 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,400 But when I'm writing it, when I'm posting it, it helps me to acknowledge that this is 520 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:07,760 happening. 521 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:13,280 And once I post it, I feel like this is actually happening that okay, it's part of the ticking 522 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:20,400 the boxes that okay, I need to take pictures to memorize, allow me to have memories of 523 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,640 the house in the future. 524 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,880 Also vocalizing it on my social media platform. 525 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,800 And it's like the end of a chapter and a new beginning for me, it really helps. 526 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:37,960 And also chatting with my family as well really helps that process as well. 527 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:45,920 Yeah, so the loss itself is not only the apartment, the place that you stayed, it's even more 528 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,120 about that, the meaning behind it, the memories that you had there. 529 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,440 And it's basically your childhood. 530 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,960 So it's like the 20 years of life that you had spent there. 531 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,680 And I think that process lasts for one to two years from the moment that my parents 532 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,880 told us that they're going to sell the house to me seeing it for the last time. 533 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,480 At first I'm like in denial, I'm like, this is not happening. 534 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,040 I'm not ready for it. 535 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,680 And I'm mad at my parents because I'm like, why do you have to sell it? 536 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,660 You can just rent it out if you're going to different countries. 537 00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:26,080 And I'm still in shock that I think that way. 538 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:31,720 But I acknowledge that I have that feeling that because I missed the house that it's 539 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,760 okay for me if you feel angry about it. 540 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,440 And I'm also angry at my parents. 541 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:41,160 Why don't you let us see the last time before you guys leave? 542 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,120 Why there's a rush to do so? 543 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,420 But again, I'm very thankful that because I studied this course that I know that grieving 544 00:30:48,420 --> 00:30:54,720 process and allowing me to acknowledge that feeling and process it, it really helps. 545 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,760 But till this point, I still think it's very significant because my house is my whole life 546 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,240 and just suddenly lost it and I don't know if that plays another factor to it, but I 547 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,120 haven't found a new replacement. 548 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,580 I don't feel home in a new country and I don't have a home in Hong Kong right now. 549 00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:17,000 So maybe that plays a significant role in my loss as well. 550 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,000 Yeah. 551 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,080 So it does seem like that you were going through different stages of grief. 552 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:28,680 There was denial, anger, acknowledgement, like there are different stages and I'm assuming 553 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:35,320 there are like back and forth kind of thing where it doesn't go from one emotion to another. 554 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:41,320 No I don't think it is in sequence at all and different stages can last for different 555 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:42,800 periods of time as well. 556 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,720 And it can even be experienced at the same time. 557 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:46,720 Yes, exactly. 558 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:53,640 In case the audience didn't know what we are saying, there's five stages of grief in theory. 559 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:59,840 The first stage is denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. 560 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:05,240 And again, as we discussed, it's not in sequence and it's different for different people as 561 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,240 well. 562 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,760 But for me, it's a lot of denial and anger to begin with. 563 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,960 And I'm really thankful that I'm able to go back to Hong Kong to see it for the last 564 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,820 time to reach that acceptance stage. 565 00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:24,280 Or else I think it takes me longer to accept the fact that I've lost my home. 566 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,480 As you said, vocalizing does help. 567 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:32,280 Whether it was through an Instagram post or talking it out with your parents, how did 568 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,040 you feel this time that you're sharing? 569 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,200 I think it's different. 570 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:44,880 The intensity is less when compared to, you know, a few months ago or even years ago. 571 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:51,080 Sharing it, either journal about it, talk to myself, talk to someone, posting on Instagram 572 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,600 really helps that progress. 573 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,000 And I disagree when people say, oh, you shouldn't post it on Instagram. 574 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,320 And I know some people would prefer to keep it in private, but I also agree that different 575 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,440 people express their grief or they process their grief differently. 576 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:11,360 Personally, I find it really helpful to vocalize it in words. 577 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:17,800 The moment I post, it feels like because I've told the whole world it's happening, it's 578 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:18,800 real. 579 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,000 And maybe that's the only thing that people have left. 580 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,880 Maybe they don't have family that they talk that lost with friends, or they just struggle 581 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,520 to vocalize it because it's so... 582 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,720 When you're talking to friends, you have to be vulnerable. 583 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,360 And we both are being vulnerable to each other at this moment. 584 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,800 And not everyone is ready for it. 585 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,840 And I think posting on Instagram, letting your friends know makes that conversation 586 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,520 easier as well. 587 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,760 Instead of starting the whole conversation from scratch when you've met the friends or 588 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,160 family saying, hey, this happened. 589 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,400 It's easy if for me, from my perspective, it's easier for the friend to know what's 590 00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,860 happening that facilitate that conversation as well. 591 00:34:00,860 --> 00:34:07,000 So there's a lot of perspective on why to post on social media instead of just attention 592 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,960 seeking, as a lot of people would assume. 593 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:10,960 Yeah. 594 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,680 That's interesting because personally, I'm definitely the one who don't post on social 595 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,680 media. 596 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,360 And it's interesting to hear that different perspective of it's not attention seeking. 597 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:26,760 It's more about sharing that process with other people and definitely facilitating that 598 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,760 conversation, especially for those friends who want to talk to you about it. 599 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:32,760 Absolutely agree. 600 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,160 Especially for me, I struggle to seek help as well. 601 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:44,240 And to me, I feel it's a burden to seek help and ask a friend to talk about it. 602 00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:47,240 So yeah, a lot of aspect contributing to it. 603 00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:48,240 Definitely. 604 00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:53,000 Yeah, personally, I have the same thing as well and asking for help, starting the conversation 605 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,920 of sharing, losing something. 606 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,040 Yeah, I might try that next time. 607 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,040 Yeah. 608 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,040 But it's interesting to hear that it does help facilitate that conversation. 609 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,560 And you don't have to start the conversation. 610 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,280 I think it's less of a burden, definitely. 611 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,640 I would feel less of a burden. 612 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,120 And definitely, it's not a burden if you talked about it. 613 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,160 Like, if you want to talk about it, I'm always there for you. 614 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:21,520 I think we've talked about this before, that we both are openly happy for each other to 615 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,040 share their concerns and stuff, but you won't initiate it. 616 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,440 I think that's the funny thing of it. 617 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,360 Yeah, so I think that definitely helps. 618 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,880 And I don't look forward to my next loss. 619 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,560 But if it does happen, and when it does happen, I'll definitely try that out in trying to 620 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,400 post on social media or just to share something. 621 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,040 And I'll reach out to you and say, hey, babe, are you okay? 622 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,040 Thank you. 623 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,560 No, but I think that's benefits of social media, but that's also disadvantage of social 624 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,680 media that people can say whatever they want to say. 625 00:35:54,680 --> 00:36:00,600 And it's just a friendly reminder here for people listening, do not disregard the intensity 626 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:06,240 of loss, no matter it is just you think the loss is insignificant, doesn't mean it's the 627 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:07,400 same for others. 628 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,560 And do not compare your loss to others as well. 629 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,040 Because I've seen a comment that really hurts me, even though it's not about my loss, but 630 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,520 another person commenting on someone's post, saying, it will make you feel better if you 631 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,600 think of this incident, and what have that person going through a tough time. 632 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,480 So don't compare and give that space and respect to everyone as well. 633 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:31,480 It's very important. 634 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,480 I definitely agree. 635 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,880 Yeah, so I was wondering, like there are different losses. 636 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,360 First memory of the loss and most significant loss is very hard to compare the two. 637 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:47,720 So I guess what would you say your coping methods are usually like for just in general, 638 00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:48,720 like loss? 639 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:52,160 I think we've touched base on it while we're sharing our stories. 640 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,120 But I think the most important step is acknowledging it. 641 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:02,640 And that's the hardest part from my perspective, acknowledging the loss and starting the grieving 642 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:08,400 process and acknowledging can be for say, as I said, posting on social media, talking 643 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,840 to myself, talking it out loud. 644 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,800 If you're not ready to share to people, talk to yourself out loud in the room, like I'm 645 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:16,800 doing now. 646 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,960 I pretend, you know, if it's not here and I just talk to myself and giving myself that 647 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,840 space and don't rush. 648 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,840 I think it's my coping mechanism. 649 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,920 I think there are some overlap as well. 650 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,800 Like you and I, I think I agree that acknowledging is very hard. 651 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:41,200 And some parts of me, I think I don't share on social media is because I don't want to 652 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,200 acknowledge it. 653 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:49,480 So definitely acknowledging it's a very important step of griefing and need loss in our lives 654 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,520 and giving yourself some time to have that process of grieving. 655 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,520 Because for example, if something one day it just hits you more, it doesn't mean you're 656 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:00,640 not grieving. 657 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,760 It doesn't mean there's no moving forward from it. 658 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,040 And it doesn't mean that your hard work in it is completely and a lot of the grieving 659 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,760 process for me is like two step forward, one step back. 660 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,040 I think that's for me personally. 661 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:14,520 So that's why I agree. 662 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,680 Like don't be too hard on yourself as well. 663 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,760 It does take time and some losses take even more time. 664 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,480 And I think there's a moment you thought you already completed that grieving process that 665 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,600 you thought you already gone past it, but actually not. 666 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,560 And there's a Netflix shows that I watched, it really described the whole grieving process. 667 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,480 It's called Afterlife. 668 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:42,400 It's talking about a husband losing his wife and being angry about the world and how to 669 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,120 walk towards the grieving process. 670 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,240 And I think what's another importance of the coping mechanism or things that I would do 671 00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:55,520 when I'm grieving, I don't know if you agree, is to find meaning in it to help that closure. 672 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,000 Yes, I agree. 673 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,200 And for me, I think the whole grieving process, like completely grieving, completely overcoming 674 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,400 that grief, overcoming that loss. 675 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,840 It's not that you're unaffected by it. 676 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,040 It's more about acknowledging it, knowing that it impacts you, but also making meaning 677 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,040 of it. 678 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,480 And I don't think grieving is to forget. 679 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:23,000 You can still have that memory with that loss, but being with it and acknowledging it, also 680 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,760 celebrating the good memories that you have, either with that thing or with that person, 681 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,920 with that memory, any loss. 682 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,480 So now that we have shared our first memory of loss and most significant loss, were there 683 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,680 any assumptions that you hold previously about the world that you can think of that may have 684 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,040 changed after different losses you have experienced? 685 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:51,240 Yeah, one of the assumptions that I have previously is I think death is the end and you will slowly 686 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,040 fade out the memory and move on with your life. 687 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:59,520 But I think now I see it differently that you can still share happy memories with that 688 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,800 person and celebrate it and think it from time to time without slowly forgetting about 689 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:05,800 that person. 690 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:11,440 And definitely another assumption that I have is loss is just a death of a person, but it's 691 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,880 more than that. 692 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:19,200 And having that awareness and knowledge of grieving can be more than just grieving for 693 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,200 a person. 694 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,320 But I think it helped me to make sense of the feelings I have when I lost something 695 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,000 and allowing myself to have that space, as we mentioned before. 696 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,560 Yeah, so I would say that's two big assumptions that I have which change. 697 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:39,040 Yeah, I totally agree that losses are completely connected to people dying. 698 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,040 That's it. 699 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:41,040 As a kid, that's what I assumed. 700 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,960 But now I'm slowly having that awareness of there are a lot more losses that have happened 701 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,600 in my life and acknowledging it and knowing how it affected you and how it is affecting 702 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:57,880 you and how I can grieve on those losses. 703 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:04,000 And one other main assumption that I hold about the world is good people have longer 704 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:05,000 lives. 705 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,440 And now I feel that it's completely opposite. 706 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,200 I feel like good people die first and bad people live longer. 707 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,800 But this new assumption leads to even more questions, I would say, where how can I define 708 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:18,800 good and bad? 709 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,920 I think it leads to more questions as well. 710 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:26,280 And also making meaning of that, oh, okay, they have a shorter life. 711 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,120 In some sort of sense, honestly, I think it's good because there's so much suffering in 712 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:32,120 the world. 713 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,040 Maybe that's why good people have a shorter life. 714 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,920 They don't have to suffer as much. 715 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:41,960 And people who are bad, per se, like, quote unquote bad, they have to live in this imperfect 716 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:42,960 world longer. 717 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,000 And I think that's how I make some meaning of it. 718 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,040 Yes, there are still more questions of how you define good and bad and all that. 719 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,840 But I think it leads to even more reflection that I need to do. 720 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:59,880 I'm curious, is it because someone that you care deeply pass away that makes you think 721 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:00,880 that way? 722 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,840 Yeah, perhaps it could be. 723 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,560 I don't believe it has to be someone that I'm close with. 724 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:11,600 It could be just a person passing away that I know of, or it could be just a stranger 725 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,920 that I completely have no connection with. 726 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:21,640 That will lead me in reflecting on what loss, what's death, what's life kind of thing. 727 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:28,560 I would say there's no specific timeline on whether good or bad people, when they pass 728 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:29,560 away. 729 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,480 But of course, I'm not necessarily regarding your assumption of the world. 730 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,760 As long as that helps you to make meaning of it, that's more important. 731 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,440 But it's interesting to hear how you think as well. 732 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:48,240 Yeah, after having this conversation, it really helps in knowing how other people feel, the 733 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:53,800 world, how people feel different kind of loss and how they cope with different losses in 734 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,680 their life and the grieving process. 735 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,040 It really makes me think more about my own process as well, my own views. 736 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:06,000 Yeah, I actually have another assumption that reminds me when we are having this conversation. 737 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:11,200 I used to think funeral is the end, but now I think it as the beginning of that grieving 738 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:17,520 process because having those rituals really vocalize it or makes it more real. 739 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:23,480 I think my feel of funeral changed quite significantly when compared to how I see it when I was young. 740 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:24,480 Yeah, definitely. 741 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:30,920 So I do encourage our listeners to have this conversation with themselves or it could be 742 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:37,440 a trusted friend, companion, even parents, siblings, just someone that you trust. 743 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,920 And we're sharing your first memory of loss, a most significant loss and going through 744 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,840 what was your first in the show reaction towards it. 745 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,880 And you're coping methods and how you feel about it now and just having these reflections 746 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,040 of your perspective of the world, of everything in life. 747 00:43:55,040 --> 00:44:00,680 And I guess also even like what are some lessons that you have learned from that situation, 748 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,120 from your situation as well? 749 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:03,360 Yeah, I absolutely agree. 750 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:09,360 I think especially in our 20s that our view of death and loss might be different from 751 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,200 how you see it when you're younger as well. 752 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:19,160 So having that conversation, having that reflections really helps me at least to understand why 753 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:25,880 I am feeling this way and surprisingly can add some more closure to your previous loss 754 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:26,880 as well. 755 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,240 So yes, I think that's it for today. 756 00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,040 Thank you so much for sticking around. 757 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,440 Again, this is can be a quite distressing or heavy topic. 758 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,160 So give yourself some space and doing a bit more self care as well. 759 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:45,520 We will see you on next week and in the meantime, if you want to check us out, you can follow 760 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:51,360 our Instagram, the why in your 20s podcast and we will release a new episode on every 761 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,340 Wednesday at 4am EST time. 762 00:44:54,340 --> 00:44:58,840 And I hope you have a great week ahead and we will see you next week. 763 00:44:58,840 --> 00:44:59,840 Bye. 764 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:10,840 Bye.