Welcome to our podcast, The Why in the 20s.
My name is Viv.
And I'm Nat.
We are two counselors in our mid-20s navigating our adulthood away from our home country,
exploring the why questions we encounter relating to relationships, identities, and uncertainties.
So whether you're listening to our podcast while going for your walk or doing your chores,
welcome on board and let the journey begin.
Welcome back to another episode of The Why in your 20s.
So Nat, how are you feeling?
I'm good.
You're good?
It's so hot out here.
It's really hot.
It's a very, very hot day.
And you wouldn't imagine it to be like this in this month, right?
Yeah, a month.
We sound so Australian.
We start the conversation by talking about the weather.
Oh, is that Australian?
Yeah, I think that's what the stereotypical thought on Australians as well.
Like, we thought how you're doing talking about the weather and then...
Oh, I didn't know that was...
That was...
When you do it in Hong Kong, like...
It's just awkward.
I don't think people care enough to talk about it.
Yeah, that's why I say it's such an Australian way.
Oh, no, but today's a good day.
March 17th.
It's my mom's birthday.
Oh, happy birthday to your mom!
That's you if she listens to it or not.
But I'm not sure if she listens to it or not.
Yeah, well, happy birthday, mom.
Why are you calling her mom?
It's not your mom.
Oh, Viv, mom.
And anyway, I hope the listeners are doing well as well.
I hope you all have a great week and did a bit of reflection on our previous episode
as well.
So yeah, anyway, what are we talking today, Viv?
Yeah, we do talk about grief and loss in this episode, which we know it could be distressing
for some.
And if you do need resources or any other support, you can go to beyondblue.org or
there are 24 free counseling in Australia and the number for Lifeline is 131114.
And please look after yourself.
If you want to avoid today's content, please do so.
Skip today's episode.
That's totally okay.
And yeah, why don't we just dive right in into today's topic?
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, so today's topic is grief and loss again.
And what do you think loss is to you, Nat?
I think it's more than just people dying, for sure.
I used to think, you know, loss and grief, you immediately link to someone pass away.
But I think it's a lot more once I have more experience in my loss in my life.
It can be the loss of something or someone that might not actually pass away, but just
you disconnect with them.
I think that's part of the loss as well.
And we should not disregard it.
It can be so much more than just a person passing away.
Yes, absolutely.
It could be things that you've owned or memories that you had or like a French, it doesn't
have to be very tangible.
Or even like societal wise, like COVID can be a huge loss for everyone as well.
And never underestimate that part as well.
Yeah, and COVID leads to even more losses, for example, jobs, security, financial security,
and all that.
One loss can lead to even more.
Yeah.
And the most recent one we have in Brisbane is the flood as well.
I know we are complaining about the weather, but I'm glad we're not having the flood this
year.
For sure.
It's definitely a, I think we should be very thankful for that.
It's a good weather.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Today we're going to share mainly the two losses in our lives.
One is our first memory of loss and the second one is most significant loss.
And this exercise is something that we did in our master's degree.
Judith asked us to share three losses, three main losses in our lives and just having that
companion to talk to.
Yeah, Judith is a lecturer, in case you don't know.
She's awesome.
I miss her.
She's great.
She's awesome.
Yeah.
Anyways, yeah.
So she asked us, one of the exercises she asked us to do is this, sharing our experiences
of loss to a trusted person.
I personally found it very helpful.
In what way?
Because I don't think I've ever actually dived into sharing with someone else about
the loss and going so thoroughly, like our experiences, how we cope with it, just in
general, the whole experience itself.
I don't think I've ever had that opportunity to do so.
Yeah, I agree.
And I think it's so interesting because when I talk to another person about all these questions,
their answer actually really surprised me.
And I've never think that way as well.
That gives me a different perspective of loss.
And I think because we're studying counselling, it helps us to broaden that perspective and
insight of what loss is.
Because before I study psychology, I would think loss is just someone passing away.
And I'm really thankful that my study gives me different insights on that as well.
So I think that this exercise really helped us while we both choose to do it with the
audience as well.
Hopefully you feel the same way as us.
Yeah, and I do look forward to today's episode because previously I didn't do it with you.
I did it with someone else.
And you did it with someone else too.
And I think us talking about it might have a different perspective as well.
Another interesting conversation, I can see it.
You can foresee it?
I can foresee it.
I think the same as well.
That's why we're doing this right now.
Anyway, we can kick start with what are your first memories of loss?
Yeah, I think personally I don't have...
It was very hard for me to think of one, honestly.
Because I don't have much memory of mainly just loss in general.
Because I think it's just easy to forget it.
But I do actually have a funny story after thinking about it.
So it's not really my memory per se.
It's more like people telling me this happened and it just stuck with me because it's a funny
story.
I'm ready.
I'm ready to laugh.
I feel like I'm building it up.
I think you'll get disappointed.
It's quite normal.
Well, I have a pretty low standard so you're better.
I would say I was in kindergarten or grade one, two.
I was pretty young at that time.
And I was with my domestic helper.
I think I was on the way to school, just on the way to somewhere.
And as a kid, I loved eating candies like a lot of other kids.
And she gave me one.
There was only one.
And I was so, yay!
I was so happy that she gave it to me.
And I dropped it.
Oh no!
I dropped it.
And I was crying and bawling my eyes out.
And then what my helper did was she picked it up from the floor and she just blew on
the candy like twice and she just gave it to me.
And the funny thing is I don't remember it, but it's just like another mom.
Like another mom.
My mom's friend, she saw it and she found that very weird because it's unsanitary to
do so.
So she complained it to my mom.
And then my mom told me about it.
That's why I was like, oh.
My mom didn't find anything weird about it.
If she's crying, just give her whatever she wants.
Especially if it's just a piece of candy, a piece of dirty candy.
So you didn't lose anything in the story?
Yes, I lost candy, but it was just given to me very, very quickly.
Oh, so that moment.
Yeah, it was a loss, but I don't think I had any time to grieve because it was given to
me right away.
I hyped it too much.
I was trying to find what's funny in it.
I just found it very funny because who would cry over a candy, first of all?
No, but you're a kid.
Yeah, I think I was actually bawling my eyes out.
It was just not a normal cry.
It wasn't like a fake cry like a lot of kids do.
Yeah.
But you never know, it might be a fake cry.
I mean, usually if it's a fake cry, there are no tears.
Usually you can see that.
But for me, I felt like the world was taken from me.
Because candy is your whole world.
Yeah, at that moment, yes.
I can still feel it.
I think I would still feel the same even up till now.
Like if I drop a piece of candy or something that I really want to eat, I think I would
just be very, very sad.
That is true.
Especially if you are really hungry, I dropped my dinner once.
Devastated.
Even one time, my cousin, she likes eating the meatball spaghetti.
She would eat the spaghetti first and then leave the meatballs at the end.
But then she was in a restaurant, so the waiter didn't know and they just took it away.
No way.
And she was crying.
I understand.
I understand that.
It was so sad, like why would the waiter take it away?
It's the meatballs.
It's the meat thing.
I want to lick the whole plate.
Don't dare to take it away.
But yeah, that was my first memory of loss.
Kind of loss and not really grieving, but it was just my first memory of it.
What about you?
Do you remember your first loss?
Mine is not that funny.
Was it funny?
It's okay.
No, mine, because as I mentioned before, my memory of loss is just people passing away.
So I don't recall anything specifically on I lost food or I'm pretty sure maybe I lost
a tooth or something else if I really have to think deep into it.
But if you ask me my first memory of loss, then I would say my relative passing away
and the awareness of that person is not in the world anymore.
Like it's either gone into another world or just non exist, you know.
But yeah, I think it's the same as death that we taught in previous episode is you just
don't feel much because it's for this maybe really quick for you.
Or it's just the first experience for me that I don't feel much about it.
Or maybe I'm not as close to the person as the other losses that I have experienced after.
Do you remember how you found out that your uncle passed away?
My parents told me and I should don't remember my reaction, but I think my parents would
be more emotional than me.
Yeah, so I don't have much emotions around.
I just feel oh, it's my first experience someone passed away.
Because I think some of my friends told me, you know, that your grandparents passed away
and I don't have that experience, but thankfully at that time, so it's more curious.
Oh, someone I know passed away.
But of course, I'm not as reflective as I am now.
Like I was just a kid.
I won't think, oh, how am I feeling now?
It's just an incident.
Yeah.
So it wasn't very impactful, but it was just something that happened.
Didn't really affect you in the sense where you had much like a really big reaction, either
positive or negative.
It was very neutral.
Yeah.
And I think the society has put a certain idea that people die, you have to cry, we
have to be sad.
And I think I'm not sure if it's the first one or other relatives of mine passed away.
And if I don't cry, I feel weak.
I'm like, oh, am I cold hearted?
But it doesn't work that way.
I realized later onwards that there's a lot of ways to express your emotions than just
crying.
And I think loss doesn't, it has big losses and small losses.
So it doesn't have to be every loss is, you know, pouring your tears and yeah.
Yeah, I agree, the society does put a lot of expectations of how we have to react to
certain losses, especially when someone passed away.
You have to be crying at the funeral or else, as you said, very cold hearted.
You don't care.
You're not paying your respects to the person who passed away and all that.
And there is a certain expectations, a certain expectation from the society itself.
And you have to behave a certain way.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And I think it's similar for me.
Like, as you said, I think personally, similar to you, I do relate to grief and loss to people
passing away.
And I think personally for me, that is most significant at the moment.
So for me personally, the most significant loss was my grandma passing away.
And I still get affected by it from time to time.
So why it was so significant for me?
It wasn't the first relative that passed away.
My grandma, my grandpa passed away first when I was younger.
Didn't feel much from it.
But when my grandma passed away, it really hit me very hard because I was in uni.
It happened during November time.
So I went back to Hong Kong for a while and then I traveled to Korea to visit my sister.
And it was a trip where I went with my dad first, and then he leaves earlier because
of work and I could stay behind and then just enjoy my time with my sister.
And it's the first time I could actually have a vacation with my sister.
And I was very excited about that.
But on a Saturday, my dad went back to Hong Kong and it was a very late night.
And I had a simple dinner with my sister and then we slept.
And on Sunday, we were getting ready to go to church, to her church.
And we got a, from what I can remember, we got a call from my mom.
My sister got a call from my mom.
I was still kind of sleeping.
My sister was getting ready and I was sleeping.
And there was something about my grandma, she tripped.
I think it was like tripped or just fell or something like that.
And she went into the hospital and it was very serious.
So I think when my sister heard it, immediately she was like, okay, let's buy a ticket back
to Hong Kong.
Yeah.
She made the decision very quickly and I was still in shock at that moment.
I didn't know what to do.
And then she told me, okay, get your dirty laundry from the washing machine and then
put it all in your luggage.
And then we're going to go get a cab and go to the airport and then buy the plane tickets
on the way.
So yeah, I immediately listened to her, like whatever she said, I just did it.
And if we were on the cab, she was buying the plane tickets with my computer and I was
at the back and I remember not feeling much, honestly.
I was very anxious.
Oh my goodness.
Is she going to really pass away or is there hope that she'll be fine?
And side note, during that trip, one of the things that I wanted to do was just record
everything.
Yeah.
Film everything and then edit afterwards.
So even on the cab, I remember I was filming.
I just had my camera on recording.
At that moment, I think I felt the same way as that, okay, the society actually expects
you to be crying.
My sister was crying.
Yeah.
And I think I felt that, oh, I should be crying.
I should feel more instead of just recording.
What kind of person will record this journey?
And I was just thinking to myself, what is wrong with me?
Because I shouldn't be reacting that way.
At that moment, I felt like that.
Now looking back, I think it was just how I coped with it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But at that moment, I felt that way and I just turned it off.
And the entire way back to Hong Kong, I think we were just very tired as well so we could
sleep.
Yeah.
So before we got on the plane, my mom told us, okay, just tell the flight attendants
that, okay, we have to get to the hospital very, very soon, as fast as we can.
So then they might allow us to get off the plane, the first person to get off the plane
after the first class people.
I don't think that helped.
The flight attendant didn't really let us go first.
But the people beside us were very nice and they told us to go first.
Perhaps I think the flight attendant didn't have that power to do so.
It's just the customers were very nice.
They're very understanding.
Yeah, they're very nice.
Exactly.
And when we got off the plane, everything, because I checked in my luggage and we were
like, okay, let's, I don't know why we said, okay, let's wait for 10 minutes and see if
we can get our luggage.
But honestly, we can just leave it there and then we can go back to get it the next day
or whatever.
Yeah.
But I think at that time we were...
I think everything is so messy and it's just a shock for both of you.
So you don't really have that mental capacity to make decisions.
Yeah.
I think, like my mom told us to just leave, don't wait for it.
But I don't think we realized how serious it was.
So we just waited.
We said, okay, let's wait for 10 minutes.
If it doesn't come, it doesn't come.
It will leave.
Yeah.
Obviously it didn't come.
It didn't come.
So we just left and we ran to the taxi stand or the cab stand or whatever you want to call
it.
It was a very long line.
So we told the people saying, like one of the workers, they're saying, oh, can we just
go?
We want to go to this place.
Can you do something about it?
Yeah.
So we told them, oh, we're going to go to the hospital.
And I think the person was very understanding as well.
So, okay, you need to go to this hospital.
Okay, just go to the front, front of the line, tell the driver.
And then we're like, okay, thank you.
We were very appreciative of her.
Thank you, thank you.
And then we just ran to the front.
But the other people there, I don't think they understood because they didn't hear it.
They don't know why we're doing that, right?
We're just like two young kids just doing whatever we want in their eyes.
So one of them just said, what are you doing lined up as expected?
And we told them, oh, we're going to, we have to go to the hospital and they're like, oh,
okay, okay.
And then they really, they're very understanding as well.
I think the entire journey, like people were very understanding, which is very unexpected.
I think in Hong Kong, I just didn't expect that.
But everyone was very understanding.
And we got on the, we got on the taxi and then we rushed there.
We saw my mom, aunts, uncles, my dad, and they took us to our grandma on the bed and
she was a bit responsive.
She could make like little sounds here and there, like just a bit moaning kind of thing.
So I think that was like her last moments and we actually got to see her for the last
moment.
And I think at that moment, I just felt like she knows we're there.
She, like when we're talking to her, it feels like she knows we're there.
Maybe not, but I think that gives me a bit of peace that she knows we care so much about
her that we came back from another country.
And honestly, some of my other aunts, they couldn't make it because they were also traveling.
They were in Japan.
They're also the same thing.
They went through the same thing as us, but they, because I think for them, they couldn't
get the earliest flight.
They couldn't see my grandma for the last time.
I think for me, I'm very thankful that I could see my grandma for the last time.
But at the same time, yeah, when I got there, my dad asked me, do I have anything to say
to my grandma if there is, like say it or else.
I mean, they didn't say or else, but they just told me to say it.
And I just looked at him and I'm like, no, there's nothing I want to say.
But I think at that moment, like somebody in my head was saying like, just give her
a kiss, but I didn't do it.
I think I was just very aware of what other people might think if I do it or whatnot.
I think to this moment, I still regret not doing it.
I don't think it makes a difference for her, but perhaps I think it's more for me, it's
a closure kind of thing.
Yeah.
So that's the story of my significant loss.
Even hearing that or saying that I think it's still very impactful for me.
And obviously because it's your grandma and I will assume you are very close to her, that
makes it more significant than other loss that you have.
Yeah.
I would say is it because the regret of not having a goodbye kiss or saying thanks to
your grandma that you can't have that closure and makes it more significant to you?
I think it definitely does add on to it.
And I would say also the regret of not spending more time with her, even though I see her
honestly once every week for sure.
But I do compare with my other cousins or my sister where my grandma took care of them
when they were kids and I was the only one my grandma did not take care of.
And I wish I had that.
So it's like some things here and there is like, oh, I wish this could have happened,
this could have happened.
And it's just coming to the sense of where it's never going to happen.
It's like a lot of what if, but also fully aware that you cannot complete those things
because your grandma already passed away.
There's no take two.
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's a very different loss to other losses in my life.
I think the intensity of it, the impact of it was very hard.
And I honestly, I didn't expect that perhaps maybe because it was a very unexpected death.
That's why I was so impactful.
But at the same time, I think there are too many factors over it that just made it made
it more impactful than I thought it would be.
So it's because it's very sudden that you are not mentally prepared for it.
Yeah.
And because obviously there were some issues in her body or something like that, but it
wasn't so serious that she was always in the hospital.
She was able to live normally, going to like getting groceries, cooking and doing all kinds
of things like hanging out with friends, playing mahjong with her friends and stuff like that.
So it was a very, yeah, that may have been a very sudden, a very sudden loss.
Yeah.
Do you reckon there's other aspects that contribute to the intensity of that loss?
One thing was that I wasn't able to, I feel like I wasn't able to openly talk about it
with my family because I know it was very impactful for my mom, for sure.
It was her mom.
So we didn't really talk about it.
It's more about the logistics of it.
And that's how we cope with it.
I would say it was more avoidance.
And then now, yeah, a few years down the road, that's when I could reflect on it and kind
of go through all the events that led up to it.
Like when I was in Korea, on the plane, on her bedside and all that, it's just going
through that.
It took me a few years to kind of going back to it and reveal all those events, all those
feelings.
Yeah.
And I'm just curious because I know you have shared this story with your own companion
when you were doing this exercise two years ago.
Is there any difference compared to now that you share with me?
Definitely so.
And again, a lot of factors played into it.
And one of them is because I did a Vs Zoom previously, and it was the first time of actually
saying it to people that I've met only for a few months.
I would say some people that I'm not super, super close with.
And at the moment, I don't think I could actually go through as detailed as I did just now.
It's interesting because sometimes we need witness to moving forward to that grieving
process.
And maybe for you is talking to different people and vocalizing your loss as well.
You say that helps you grieve about the loss.
It definitely helps with the grieving process.
There are different things that helped me, but I think one of the things is just forcing
it out and not just thinking in my head or even just writing it down.
It's still very different.
Yeah.
Anyways, yeah, that was one of my most significant loss.
And I would say it's a very common loss.
A lot of people would think, oh, what's my most significant loss?
And they would immediately go to a person passing away or someone that they care about
passing away.
Was that similar for you?
Well, before that, thank you for sharing.
I think it's being vulnerable to share is not an easy thing.
For me is different.
I do remember my grandmother passed away and it's very significant to me.
But at that time, I'm still quite young.
And maybe because I have grieved for it that I, I think I would be confident to say I complete
that grieving process that I feel less significant as the other loss that I experienced recently.
I do think the loss that I had previously is significant, but because the loss that
I'm going to shed is I'm still going through it.
So at this moment is very significant to me from my perspective.
So my most significant loss is my home.
The home that I've lived for 20 years in my life because my family is moving countries.
And for me, it's the loss of the life that I thought I would have.
So where it started is I didn't know my parents going to sell the house.
And the moment when they told us is during COVID period.
So I was not able to travel back home.
And it's quite sad to me because I've lived there for 20 years, I think.
And there's nothing I can do.
My dad tried to make videos and trying to keep that memory for us.
But I think it feels different if you're in person and say it, see it for the last time.
The last time I lived in that house is before COVID and I was not expecting COVID to last
that long.
So I thought I would still go back and I left the house with no expectation that that's
my last time.
So I don't think it's a I'm not satisfied with it personally.
I think I wish I can see it for the last time.
Because of restrictions and also my study, I have work as well.
So it's not that easy for me to just say go home and quarantine.
So for me, it's very sad to not see it for the last time until there's some changes because
of my parents' plan that actually I managed to see it for the last time.
So it's unfortunate that things happened.
But also I'm very thankful and grateful that I can get home, help my parents to pack and
see it for the last time.
For me, it really helps me that grieving process.
And I know I shouldn't compare it.
But I'm sure it will make a whole difference for you as well.
If you didn't make it in time to see your grandma for the last time, it will make a
whole lot different.
So for me, being there really helps that grieving process of losing my place includes more than
just the house, but also the memory that I have in the house.
You know, different corners, you have like different memories and going back, taking
pictures really helped me to start that grieving process and be present and feel my feelings.
And I really agree with what you said previously on vocalizing that grief.
Because I post some pictures on my Instagram and it really helps me when I'm writing that
post and making sense of what's happening, even if it's just a short description.
But when I'm writing it, when I'm posting it, it helps me to acknowledge that this is
happening.
And once I post it, I feel like this is actually happening that okay, it's part of the ticking
the boxes that okay, I need to take pictures to memorize, allow me to have memories of
the house in the future.
Also vocalizing it on my social media platform.
And it's like the end of a chapter and a new beginning for me, it really helps.
And also chatting with my family as well really helps that process as well.
Yeah, so the loss itself is not only the apartment, the place that you stayed, it's even more
about that, the meaning behind it, the memories that you had there.
And it's basically your childhood.
So it's like the 20 years of life that you had spent there.
And I think that process lasts for one to two years from the moment that my parents
told us that they're going to sell the house to me seeing it for the last time.
At first I'm like in denial, I'm like, this is not happening.
I'm not ready for it.
And I'm mad at my parents because I'm like, why do you have to sell it?
You can just rent it out if you're going to different countries.
And I'm still in shock that I think that way.
But I acknowledge that I have that feeling that because I missed the house that it's
okay for me if you feel angry about it.
And I'm also angry at my parents.
Why don't you let us see the last time before you guys leave?
Why there's a rush to do so?
But again, I'm very thankful that because I studied this course that I know that grieving
process and allowing me to acknowledge that feeling and process it, it really helps.
But till this point, I still think it's very significant because my house is my whole life
and just suddenly lost it and I don't know if that plays another factor to it, but I
haven't found a new replacement.
I don't feel home in a new country and I don't have a home in Hong Kong right now.
So maybe that plays a significant role in my loss as well.
Yeah.
So it does seem like that you were going through different stages of grief.
There was denial, anger, acknowledgement, like there are different stages and I'm assuming
there are like back and forth kind of thing where it doesn't go from one emotion to another.
No I don't think it is in sequence at all and different stages can last for different
periods of time as well.
And it can even be experienced at the same time.
Yes, exactly.
In case the audience didn't know what we are saying, there's five stages of grief in theory.
The first stage is denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
And again, as we discussed, it's not in sequence and it's different for different people as
well.
But for me, it's a lot of denial and anger to begin with.
And I'm really thankful that I'm able to go back to Hong Kong to see it for the last
time to reach that acceptance stage.
Or else I think it takes me longer to accept the fact that I've lost my home.
As you said, vocalizing does help.
Whether it was through an Instagram post or talking it out with your parents, how did
you feel this time that you're sharing?
I think it's different.
The intensity is less when compared to, you know, a few months ago or even years ago.
Sharing it, either journal about it, talk to myself, talk to someone, posting on Instagram
really helps that progress.
And I disagree when people say, oh, you shouldn't post it on Instagram.
And I know some people would prefer to keep it in private, but I also agree that different
people express their grief or they process their grief differently.
Personally, I find it really helpful to vocalize it in words.
The moment I post, it feels like because I've told the whole world it's happening, it's
real.
And maybe that's the only thing that people have left.
Maybe they don't have family that they talk that lost with friends, or they just struggle
to vocalize it because it's so...
When you're talking to friends, you have to be vulnerable.
And we both are being vulnerable to each other at this moment.
And not everyone is ready for it.
And I think posting on Instagram, letting your friends know makes that conversation
easier as well.
Instead of starting the whole conversation from scratch when you've met the friends or
family saying, hey, this happened.
It's easy if for me, from my perspective, it's easier for the friend to know what's
happening that facilitate that conversation as well.
So there's a lot of perspective on why to post on social media instead of just attention
seeking, as a lot of people would assume.
Yeah.
That's interesting because personally, I'm definitely the one who don't post on social
media.
And it's interesting to hear that different perspective of it's not attention seeking.
It's more about sharing that process with other people and definitely facilitating that
conversation, especially for those friends who want to talk to you about it.
Absolutely agree.
Especially for me, I struggle to seek help as well.
And to me, I feel it's a burden to seek help and ask a friend to talk about it.
So yeah, a lot of aspect contributing to it.
Definitely.
Yeah, personally, I have the same thing as well and asking for help, starting the conversation
of sharing, losing something.
Yeah, I might try that next time.
Yeah.
But it's interesting to hear that it does help facilitate that conversation.
And you don't have to start the conversation.
I think it's less of a burden, definitely.
I would feel less of a burden.
And definitely, it's not a burden if you talked about it.
Like, if you want to talk about it, I'm always there for you.
I think we've talked about this before, that we both are openly happy for each other to
share their concerns and stuff, but you won't initiate it.
I think that's the funny thing of it.
Yeah, so I think that definitely helps.
And I don't look forward to my next loss.
But if it does happen, and when it does happen, I'll definitely try that out in trying to
post on social media or just to share something.
And I'll reach out to you and say, hey, babe, are you okay?
Thank you.
No, but I think that's benefits of social media, but that's also disadvantage of social
media that people can say whatever they want to say.
And it's just a friendly reminder here for people listening, do not disregard the intensity
of loss, no matter it is just you think the loss is insignificant, doesn't mean it's the
same for others.
And do not compare your loss to others as well.
Because I've seen a comment that really hurts me, even though it's not about my loss, but
another person commenting on someone's post, saying, it will make you feel better if you
think of this incident, and what have that person going through a tough time.
So don't compare and give that space and respect to everyone as well.
It's very important.
I definitely agree.
Yeah, so I was wondering, like there are different losses.
First memory of the loss and most significant loss is very hard to compare the two.
So I guess what would you say your coping methods are usually like for just in general,
like loss?
I think we've touched base on it while we're sharing our stories.
But I think the most important step is acknowledging it.
And that's the hardest part from my perspective, acknowledging the loss and starting the grieving
process and acknowledging can be for say, as I said, posting on social media, talking
to myself, talking it out loud.
If you're not ready to share to people, talk to yourself out loud in the room, like I'm
doing now.
I pretend, you know, if it's not here and I just talk to myself and giving myself that
space and don't rush.
I think it's my coping mechanism.
I think there are some overlap as well.
Like you and I, I think I agree that acknowledging is very hard.
And some parts of me, I think I don't share on social media is because I don't want to
acknowledge it.
So definitely acknowledging it's a very important step of griefing and need loss in our lives
and giving yourself some time to have that process of grieving.
Because for example, if something one day it just hits you more, it doesn't mean you're
not grieving.
It doesn't mean there's no moving forward from it.
And it doesn't mean that your hard work in it is completely and a lot of the grieving
process for me is like two step forward, one step back.
I think that's for me personally.
So that's why I agree.
Like don't be too hard on yourself as well.
It does take time and some losses take even more time.
And I think there's a moment you thought you already completed that grieving process that
you thought you already gone past it, but actually not.
And there's a Netflix shows that I watched, it really described the whole grieving process.
It's called Afterlife.
It's talking about a husband losing his wife and being angry about the world and how to
walk towards the grieving process.
And I think what's another importance of the coping mechanism or things that I would do
when I'm grieving, I don't know if you agree, is to find meaning in it to help that closure.
Yes, I agree.
And for me, I think the whole grieving process, like completely grieving, completely overcoming
that grief, overcoming that loss.
It's not that you're unaffected by it.
It's more about acknowledging it, knowing that it impacts you, but also making meaning
of it.
And I don't think grieving is to forget.
You can still have that memory with that loss, but being with it and acknowledging it, also
celebrating the good memories that you have, either with that thing or with that person,
with that memory, any loss.
So now that we have shared our first memory of loss and most significant loss, were there
any assumptions that you hold previously about the world that you can think of that may have
changed after different losses you have experienced?
Yeah, one of the assumptions that I have previously is I think death is the end and you will slowly
fade out the memory and move on with your life.
But I think now I see it differently that you can still share happy memories with that
person and celebrate it and think it from time to time without slowly forgetting about
that person.
And definitely another assumption that I have is loss is just a death of a person, but it's
more than that.
And having that awareness and knowledge of grieving can be more than just grieving for
a person.
But I think it helped me to make sense of the feelings I have when I lost something
and allowing myself to have that space, as we mentioned before.
Yeah, so I would say that's two big assumptions that I have which change.
Yeah, I totally agree that losses are completely connected to people dying.
That's it.
As a kid, that's what I assumed.
But now I'm slowly having that awareness of there are a lot more losses that have happened
in my life and acknowledging it and knowing how it affected you and how it is affecting
you and how I can grieve on those losses.
And one other main assumption that I hold about the world is good people have longer
lives.
And now I feel that it's completely opposite.
I feel like good people die first and bad people live longer.
But this new assumption leads to even more questions, I would say, where how can I define
good and bad?
I think it leads to more questions as well.
And also making meaning of that, oh, okay, they have a shorter life.
In some sort of sense, honestly, I think it's good because there's so much suffering in
the world.
Maybe that's why good people have a shorter life.
They don't have to suffer as much.
And people who are bad, per se, like, quote unquote bad, they have to live in this imperfect
world longer.
And I think that's how I make some meaning of it.
Yes, there are still more questions of how you define good and bad and all that.
But I think it leads to even more reflection that I need to do.
I'm curious, is it because someone that you care deeply pass away that makes you think
that way?
Yeah, perhaps it could be.
I don't believe it has to be someone that I'm close with.
It could be just a person passing away that I know of, or it could be just a stranger
that I completely have no connection with.
That will lead me in reflecting on what loss, what's death, what's life kind of thing.
I would say there's no specific timeline on whether good or bad people, when they pass
away.
But of course, I'm not necessarily regarding your assumption of the world.
As long as that helps you to make meaning of it, that's more important.
But it's interesting to hear how you think as well.
Yeah, after having this conversation, it really helps in knowing how other people feel, the
world, how people feel different kind of loss and how they cope with different losses in
their life and the grieving process.
It really makes me think more about my own process as well, my own views.
Yeah, I actually have another assumption that reminds me when we are having this conversation.
I used to think funeral is the end, but now I think it as the beginning of that grieving
process because having those rituals really vocalize it or makes it more real.
I think my feel of funeral changed quite significantly when compared to how I see it when I was young.
Yeah, definitely.
So I do encourage our listeners to have this conversation with themselves or it could be
a trusted friend, companion, even parents, siblings, just someone that you trust.
And we're sharing your first memory of loss, a most significant loss and going through
what was your first in the show reaction towards it.
And you're coping methods and how you feel about it now and just having these reflections
of your perspective of the world, of everything in life.
And I guess also even like what are some lessons that you have learned from that situation,
from your situation as well?
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
I think especially in our 20s that our view of death and loss might be different from
how you see it when you're younger as well.
So having that conversation, having that reflections really helps me at least to understand why
I am feeling this way and surprisingly can add some more closure to your previous loss
as well.
So yes, I think that's it for today.
Thank you so much for sticking around.
Again, this is can be a quite distressing or heavy topic.
So give yourself some space and doing a bit more self care as well.
We will see you on next week and in the meantime, if you want to check us out, you can follow
our Instagram, the why in your 20s podcast and we will release a new episode on every
Wednesday at 4am EST time.
And I hope you have a great week ahead and we will see you next week.
Bye.