Welcome to our podcast, The Why in your 20s.
My name is Viv and I'm Nat.
We are two counselors in our mid-20s navigating our adulthood away from our home country,
exploring the why questions we encounter relating to relationships, identities and uncertainties.
So whether you're listening to our podcast while going for your walk or doing your chores, anything,
welcome on board and let the journey begin.
Alright, welcome back to another episode of The Why in your 20s.
Yay!
It's episode 2.
I'm so glad we made it here.
We finally made it to episode 2.
Yeah, because episode 1, the audience probably won't know we nearly have to record the third time.
And oh my goodness, it's just been a roller coaster journey.
And I'm so glad that we made it to episode 2.
And I did do some reflection after the episode 1 because we have some technical issues.
I'm like, oh, maybe we need to buy a microphone.
Like we need to invest one.
And then I was like, no, but I mentioned in the podcast is we don't need all the furniture, right?
Do you remember I talked about that analogy that I'm so proud of.
And then I convinced myself that we don't need it.
We can slowly build out that tools and skills.
And if we made it to episode 20, we can invest one.
Anyway, enough rambling for today.
Yeah, I was so annoyed at myself, frustrated at myself when we had to record the second time.
So when I thought we had to record the third time, I was like, oh, great, I'm not going to do this anymore.
I'm going to give up on this podcast.
I think I'm in denial for like a few seconds as well.
And you know what I told you?
I was like, we can fix this.
It has been saved to our file and we can fix this.
Yeah.
I'm glad everything is fixed.
I'm glad that we've made it through.
Yeah.
So what are we talking today?
We're going to talk about friendships.
So why is adult friendship so different and so hard compared to when we were in high school?
I honestly feel a bit scared of doing this podcast because I'm not really good at friendship, to be honest.
No, you're pretty good.
And I think it is a very good chance for us to explore and to reflect on the topic of friendship.
And I think it's so important.
We talk a lot about, you know, romantic relationships, but friendship is also a very important part in our 20s,
like in our life in general, and that connection is very important as well.
So I do feel scared and uncomfortable, but as our bio said, sit with it because that's when we learn and grow.
And I truly believe that.
Definitely.
So hopefully you will learn and grow throughout this podcast.
And I hope the audience, you do so as well.
Yeah.
So before actually we compared the two, I think maybe we can go back to how your friendships were like in high school.
What are your friendships like in high school?
I think it was pretty easy to make friends because it's just a very small grade.
Like my grade, it's only less than 30 people, my whole grade.
So I knew everyone and we came from like our school is from primary to high school.
So then we knew each other since primary and I went into the school when I was in grade three.
So then I knew them for a few years already.
So I didn't have to start fresh.
I didn't have to start from the beginning to make new friends completely.
So I had like a stable group of friends, that 30 people.
So I'm more, obviously there are smaller groups within the 30 people.
But personally, I am a floater.
I just go from one social group to another, to another, to another kind of thing.
Yeah.
Because just how I am, how I was and how I am.
Yeah.
I love that term floater.
Were you one?
Oh, absolutely not.
Then why do you like the term?
No, it's just very cute.
I'm opposite.
I always stick to the same group of people.
And I just feel like it's safe and low maintenance, if that makes sense.
Definitely, yeah.
I agree with you that we are in a very structured school.
And I went to a school that have kindergarten, primary and secondary.
Yeah.
So I know all those people for like more than 13, 14 years.
And our class is like around 40 people and we have six class.
So it's around 200-ish people every year.
Yeah, actually that's very normal in Hong Kong.
Yeah.
I do find it so easy because you don't need to put a lot of effort in it.
You make friends that in same class.
And then when I was in primary school, you make new friends every year.
You only make friends within your class.
I think that's what I know they would do because it's so convenient.
And moving to high school, you basically see each other every day and even more than your parents.
I see my friends Monday to Friday and sometimes even Saturday, Sunday,
because we have supplementary class.
Which is unfortunate.
And the unfortunate part is because we have to do supplementary class,
not because we have to see your friends.
Maybe partially because of that as well.
It's the same people for seven days.
Like for every single day, it's the same people.
And that makes it more like a family member to me because you see each other every single day.
You don't need to text, hey, do you want to catch up because you see each other every single day.
Do you get bored of them though?
No.
Really?
Well, I think it's different the way that you hang out with your friends in high school
and in uni is different because the thing that you talk in high school is about like,
I talk about homework, exam, gossip, which I don't do it anymore.
I think it's a really bad thing.
But yes, you don't because you have lunch every single day.
And it's like you don't get bored with your family.
And that's what I feel with my friends.
They are part of my family and yeah, you don't get bored of it.
And you don't text them?
No, because I don't need to text.
As you said, we see each other every single day.
The only thing we text each other is what time you arrive.
You know, do you want to have breakfast tomorrow?
And we don't text about what happened because if there's anything you want to talk,
just talk in person because you will see each other in a few hours later anyway.
That's very interesting because I think with my friends, we texted a lot and used MSN.
I'm not that generation.
That was such a big thing.
It's like MSN and texting.
So I didn't have internet on my phone.
So I texted after school.
Right after school, I started texting my friends.
And then when I get home, I'll get on my computer and open my MSN.
And then we'll talk there.
And which is very funny because now that I look back, I don't know what we talked about
because we don't talk about homework because we had no homework.
We had tests and exams, yes.
But then other than that, we didn't have much.
And I was just wondering like what we talked about that we spent so much time in school
already and then after school, we continue talking.
It's just like there's nothing much that we...
There's not a lot going in our lives that we actually have to talk 24-7 to be honest
because we spent half of that time together already.
Yeah.
And our life is pretty boring.
Yeah, exactly.
And I find it so interesting because we're both from Hong Kong and we have so different
experiences as well.
And I'm sure the friends that I have in high school, they might have a different perspective
as well because I'm a person that don't like texting, but that contributes to a factor of
it as well.
Oh yeah, for sure.
I do not like texting now.
But back then, it was...
I think it was just a very hip thing too.
Do people say hip now?
No, right?
I feel like I have generation gap with Vivian.
No, it's not.
No, I get what you mean.
Yeah.
It's a very popular thing to do to text.
And that's what I did.
And I think back in those age, we have less other stuff or like, how can I say this?
We now have so many other distractions other than texting.
And back then we don't.
And it's like a new thing.
Is it 10, 15 years ago?
No, these do not count.
So I think it's so interesting to everyone at that period of time because texting is
so new and it's so fun to do so.
But now it's just part of our life that we have so many other distractions.
Yeah, I think back then it was something that we enjoyed.
It was like a leisure.
It's an activity.
Now it's more like a responsibility.
So true.
We can have another episode about texting.
But I think we both would agree that it's so easy to make friends and it's mainly from
your school and you stick with that friend group.
Although you are a floater, but still within that 30 people.
Yeah.
And I would say most of my friends are from school.
There were a few like from outside of school, but mainly it's just within school and we
just hang around.
Yeah.
But how do you think it's different from the friends that you make now?
Or is there any difference, would you say?
Absolutely.
I think when we are preparing this podcast, we have looked into some papers and one of
the papers, they identified four main reasons of friendship fall out or like dissolve in
your twenties.
And I absolutely agree with that.
And I do have friends in high school that I don't even touch anymore.
And I think the first point that the paper said is the physical distance because for
say you're moving away.
I move away to a different country.
You can just move to a different uni.
The physical distance is not as close as in high school anymore that you see each other
every single day.
You have lunch, you have dinner, you have breakfast together.
And moving into adulthood, you have to plan ahead.
You have to make plans for say, can I catch up with you in a week, what time?
And you have to organize it.
Yeah.
And it makes it harder for me.
I don't know if it's for you as well, that in different country, it's so much harder
to have that connection because you cannot just say, can we catch up for lunch in what
day because you guys are like thousand kilometers away.
We can just do it through video call.
And I think it's one of my struggle on maintaining my friendship in Hong Kong as well because
of that physical distance.
Yeah, definitely.
I think the physical distance, cause studying in an international school, it's a lot of
people leave Hong Kong.
Like even I didn't stay in Hong Kong, but we go to different countries, Canada, Australia,
UK, or just somewhere else.
It's very hard to keep in contact because time zone is very different.
And I will say that is a very practical thing.
It's very hard to meet up.
Back then wasn't a very big thing.
Video calling wasn't a big thing.
No.
But we don't have the Zoom.
I think at that time we were using Skype.
Yes.
But yeah, it's very hard to meet up on moving countries.
And it's so much harder that you kind of give up.
You try maintaining and then after a while it's so much effort.
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
And that's not only high school.
And when I moved to uni, I live in college and I've met friends with international friends
and then they either exchanged or they went back home.
And one time we had to organize a video chat and it's like in four different time zones.
One is in America, one is in Dubai, and then the other two is in Australia.
But you know Australia has different time zones as well.
So it's so hard and I absolutely agree sometimes you just want to give up and you find it's
so hard to maintain that friendship.
Definitely it's very hard.
And there are like two other reasons for a friendship to dissolve in 20s.
The second one is the emergence of new friends.
Do you agree with that?
Like when you get into adulthood, you met more new friends and that makes you reflect on
the friends in high school as well.
I think it's because we have different social circle.
You meet a lot of people, maybe not even new friends, just people in general.
And you will have to spend time with people in your university, same university.
It's just, I think it's because of the physical distance.
It's like, oh, it's very easy to continue talking to your classmates in your university
classes, but then the new friends does take some time away from your friends in high school.
I think that is a case for a lot of people.
I mean, personally it wasn't because it was really hard for me to make new friends in
university.
I just didn't feel connected to people I met.
But yeah, I think it's more about, oh yeah, because I have more freedom towards that.
I was like, okay, not much connection.
Okay, I give up.
But then I was feeling like that.
It's very different now.
But then back then I was like, oh, there's not much meaning to put in effort towards
because you know that, oh, these are international students.
You're not going to see them within two, three years.
After those two, three years, you're just going to say bye and you're probably not going
to see them ever again in your life.
And that's how I was like, okay, I'm not going to put in that effort.
And what you said that thought is you learned it from your high school as well.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Because even back then it's like, okay, you know, these are your high school friends.
After that, we're not going to be in the same country.
So I think I learned from a young age or from high school where, okay, not a lot of people
is going to stay in your life forever.
Yeah.
And what you said I learned late in my teenage year or like early twenties when I realized
that friends don't stay forever.
And the concept of best friend, best team.
You are like my friends forever, the BFF hashtag.
And I need to learn that because we have different values and even like the environment that
we're living in growing up is we'll grow apart based on the situation you're in and it's
okay to go different pathway.
But what's more important is do you value that friendship and is that friend matters
to you that worth putting the effort in maintaining it.
And I think that's how I feel it now.
But I have a period of time that I struggle because friends come and go and that's not
how I feel friendship when I was young.
Yeah.
I think it's similar back then I was like thinking about, oh, should I put that effort
in as well?
But then nowadays, okay, yes, they come and go, friends come and go.
But at the same time, as long as they're very important at that stage, like they make a
difference.
Even if it's a short time, one year, one month, one day, I think it's still make a difference
like whether it's for you or for the other person.
But yes, friendship come and go and I like nowadays I don't really think about, oh, is
it worth the effort?
It's more about just go for it.
Yeah.
You don't have to think if it's worth the effort.
It's more about okay, if they make an impact in your life, like whether it's a positive
or negative impact, it's still an impact and whether negative or positive, you still learn
from it.
You still grow from it.
Right.
So you will reflect on it and think what have you get out of that friendship, but not fixated
on that we grew apart and yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
And I do agree that having new friends and expanding that social circle give you more
freedom or like space to think of what kind of people you want to include in that circle
and that leads towards the third point, growing dislike for a friend.
And it's a very interesting point because when I discussed with Viv, like just now,
this is a very interesting phrase, but how I understand this is as we mentioned in the
previous episode that, you know, 20s is the phase of exploration and I'm definitely not
that self-reflective as I am now compared to, you know, when I was like a teenager.
I probably just think, yeah, I don't click with that friend.
I'll just move on.
And I didn't really reflect on what exactly it is.
But now I think the older you get for me is from the experience of friendship fallout.
And unfortunately, I have quite a few friends that I do not keep in contact anymore.
But I think is what you said, the reflection on what exactly it is that the friend drains
you or energize you.
And I think when you think more about that, you would have more understanding of the dislike,
I won't say dislike of a friend.
It's just things that drains you.
Yeah, it's, I think it's more about you mentioned about reflecting on, okay, not dislike, maybe
what do you look for in a friend?
What characteristics you think it's important?
What your values are?
Do they line up with each other?
And I think for me, it's a bit different, I would say.
I think when I was in high school, there were a lot of stuff or things I see in other people
like, oh, I, this person did this, this person did that.
But now it's, it's more about, I don't think about this.
It's maybe I've overlooked this, like, okay, this is fine.
Like, it doesn't really matter that much because it's just a very small thing.
Even if our values don't align, any two people, if you put them in a room and they have the
mindset of, oh, I want to be this person's friend, it will work out.
As long as two people think that I want to be friends with the other person, I think
it will be okay.
So it's more like everyone can be friends as long as they have good communication and
both have the intention of putting effort and maintaining the friendship.
Yeah, having that intention of maintaining the friendship, building up that friendship.
And nowadays, like, oh, there's not much of stuff that I dislike in a friend or even annoyance.
Like, I don't really see that.
Yeah, there are times that, oh, I get a bit annoyed or whatnot, but I try to, it's very
cheesy to say, but I think I drown them with my love.
It's more about channeling that love that I have for other people.
And it's like, okay, even if it's different, even if they're different, even if they have
different values, different personality, different thoughts, different opinions, it doesn't change
the fact that I value this person.
I love this person.
It's so interesting because it's so hard for me to think that way.
And for me is I have certain values that I hold strongly on, for say, humility is a very
important values that I hold.
When the other person don't show the same as well, I struggled.
And I didn't know the values I hold strongly to is humility until I think one time I was
at placement and then my supervisor is doing a values exercise with me.
And at the time during the supervision, I'm saying, oh, the client did this, this, this,
and I feel really uncomfortable.
And she wonder, do you have friends that act the same way that you feel uncomfortable as
well?
And I think that is the, oh my gosh, moment.
Yes, I do.
But I still clinging on that friend because I'm a people pleaser.
I want to please everyone and I want to be friends with everyone, which sometimes can
be bad.
But after that exercise is the awareness of the values that I have.
You know, sometimes you get annoyed with a friend, maybe, maybe not for you, but I sometimes
get annoyed at friend and I never say out.
And maybe I just simply don't know what it is that annoys me.
And I think that's the awareness is so important on knowing what exactly that is.
And then you can communicate with that friend or in the future, you can avoid people that
don't have that values with you, if that makes sense.
But I do agree.
What you said is showing your love to them.
And because you care about their friendship that it will make it work.
It's very funny.
Like when you said you mentioned, for example, if a person doesn't have that humility that
you value, then you tend to avoid them.
I think it's back into the balance of, is it just the humility or if there's other qualities
that that friend have that you values, then the humility thing weight less, if that makes
sense.
And I'm still learning that if you think that friend have the other qualities that you values
for say the humility doesn't match with mine.
And if moving forward that if things have, you have to remind yourself you're the one
that accepted and don't fixated on that certain values that that person left, but focus more
on the other values that person holds.
I think definitely the awareness of that is very important.
So actually during when we were talking about it, what's like thinking, I'm trying very
hard to find something that I'm annoyed with.
Like even previously when we were part of a conversations where we're talking about
pet peeves and anything like that, it was very hard for me to think of one.
And it's just, I'm so annoyed, frustrated with myself.
So I want to have that awareness, but it doesn't seem like I can find one.
And that can be a good thing because that means you are flexible that you can have more
capacity in accepting people around you.
It could be.
But the set annoys you that you don't have one or you think you just think we don't have
one or you don't know for now.
I think I simply don't have one.
Yeah.
I think I just simply don't have a pet peeve that I'm like, so it just sticks stands out.
And I do agree.
I think it's very easy to hang out with and make people around you very at ease.
I wasn't wishing for a compliment, but thank you for that.
Yeah.
Going back to the main reasons.
Yeah.
But I think growing the dislike for a friend, we have different opinion.
Oh, it's just this.
There is perspective.
Yeah.
This point is just interesting.
And as we said, we don't like the word dislike, but that goes to the fourth point, the interference
from romantic partner or relationships.
So it's like when your friends go into a relationship that will, I think that will heavily impact
the relationship that you have with that person, like that friendship, because they do, they
will spend a lot of time with their partner.
And it's just inevitable where you spend less time with your friend.
I agree.
I think I've experienced once as my friend get into a romantic relationship and I feel
like being left out that I have less time.
But I think it's back in the point of is that friendship matters to you.
And if so, then you will communicate with that friend and say, Hey, I feel left out.
But having that awareness of that's part of the life.
People have different stages and people might have different energy at different stage for
say, not about in a relationship, but when they start a family, they need more time to
spend with the family and looking after their kids.
And it's just normal.
It's just part of the life.
And even so, like we see each other very often, but I do have friends that we only see each
other every two months and we really just schedule a time and you know, I can't do next
week.
Can we do the week after?
And I think just, just part of it.
Yeah, the first interference, not just from relationship, it's more about just adopting
with jobs or even other, not romantic relationships, but other friendships.
Like they have other friends too, like whether it's from their own classes, uni or their
job or anything else, like there are different circle, but then it does take time from it.
And I think it's just, yeah, it's just part of life.
And you just realize, okay, like you're not the only person in their life.
Yeah.
And that's okay because if you were, that would mean they're very dependent on you.
So dependent that they only have you in their life.
That becomes very toxic, I would say.
Yeah.
So it's actually very healthy that, okay, you guys are not only relying on each other.
You guys have different people that you can rely on on different things, which I think
it's, it's good.
Yeah.
It's very healthy.
And having that flexibility on you're not only fixated on one friend, but you have other
friends, you have other relationships as well.
Yeah.
And I mean, it's okay if you have a few friends or if you have no friends and, and it's, you're
more comfortable with just having that time with yourself.
And I think that's, that's also okay.
Like you don't have to have one friend or a few friends that you're very close with,
as long as you're comfortable, as long as you're okay with the amount of friends that
you're having.
And I absolutely agree with that.
I think that's the relationship as well.
Relationship with yourself.
Because as we said in the previous episode, the 20s is an era of self-focused exploration
and you do need more time with yourself as well.
I don't know for you, but I'm those people that if I hang out on Saturday, I need two
days recover.
I can't have plans that go out every single day.
Consecutively.
Consecutively, that's the word.
I need day off.
I need recovery time.
And it's not simply because they're busy.
They might just need time with themselves and that's okay.
Yeah.
That's just an introvert and extrovert thing where you gain more energy when you're alone
and that allows you to have enough energy to enjoy the time that you have with other
people as well.
And that's okay.
Like some people might even want longer time by themselves.
Maybe they just need one social gathering per month.
It could be like that.
It depends on their personality and how they enjoy the time that they have with themselves
and other people.
Yeah, absolutely.
I agree.
Yeah.
And just, I think these four main reasons were point out by Susanna Rose.
Are there any other reasons that you can think of at the moment?
I think that four points summarize it really well.
And I think the common theme of all these four is yes, it's the main reason of friendship
to solve, but how do we manage it?
Is there a way that instead of letting it fall out, is there any way that we can solve
it?
Yeah.
I think it really does tie back to our conflict resolution styles that we have.
Maybe we can talk about some of the conflicts that we have had with our friends.
Yeah.
Oh, I have a lot.
Okay, I have none actually.
Really?
I feel like I have none, but you can start.
I think it's unfortunate that I have that many past experience on conflict, but I think
it's also fortunate at the same time because I learned a lot from it.
My conflict resolution style is I'm the avoidant type.
Growing up, how I deal with conflict with my family or my friends is the Cold War.
I don't know if they have a term in English, but what that means is you avoid it and hope
that things will be fine in the future and then you will slowly re-engage back into that
relationship.
That's how I normally do when I argue with my sister as well.
Now when we have an argument, we don't talk to each other for a whole month.
And to that point, you forget what you're angry about.
And then it's just those small conversations for say, oh, what do you want for dinner?
And that breaks that Cold War.
Then you just pretend nothing happened.
And it's so safe and so comfortable that I don't need to do anything, don't have to think
anything, don't have to confront.
Amazing.
I love it.
And I realized there's a very toxic way.
So we're not encouraging people to avoid it.
Absolutely not.
And pretending nothing is wrong.
Absolutely not.
And I learned the hard way and that's just me.
And how do I realize that I have this problem is I met a friend in undergrad.
She's the confrontation type.
And one time we have an argument, I was so scared because I'm the avoidant type.
I stay in my room for like the whole week.
Well, I only go out to get food and I would afford the time that she would show up at
the dining hall.
So I was like avoiding her for the whole weekend.
She gets so annoyed.
She's texting.
Why don't you talk to me?
And she's like knocking on my door and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so scared because no
one ever confront me like that.
And then one thing that she said that still keeps closely to my heart is she came to me
and she said, I want to talk with you.
I want to resolve this conflict because I value our friendship and I care about you.
If I don't care about you, I would just leave.
I don't care.
I would just walk away.
And at that moment I'm like, oh, and I reflect on all the friendship that I have previously
and I have friends that I use this way and then we pretend nothing happened and we still
become friends.
And I have other friends that I don't keep contact anymore because just the way that
I manage conflict is so immature that leads to that friendship fall out.
I really agree with one of the research that they said is the conflict resolution styles
with your parents is pretty in friendship conflict as well.
I absolutely agree because my conflict resolution style in my teenage or like earlier childhood
with my family is the exact same thing as when I was with my friends and just having
that awareness and recovering from it and changing how I manage friendship.
I think I learned the hard way, but I'm glad I get there at the end.
Yeah, definitely the avoidant work with your sister.
It works with your parents.
That's how it improves.
Oh, it works.
It worked effectively.
That's how you channel that towards with your friends as well.
That worked previously, so it will work with the friends that you have.
And I think it worked very well with your parents and with your sisters because they
were the avoidant type as well.
So then it matches, but then with your friend that who was more confronting, then it doesn't
work.
Absolutely.
I think it doesn't work and also you realize, oh, there are other people who doesn't avoid
it.
Then how do you approach it and like for her, like she will tell you her side because she's
more upfront about it.
And that's how you hear it.
And I agree because when we are in our twenties, as we said, we met more people and we got
different perspective as well for say my friend give me a new insight on how to manage conflict.
And I saw recently saw an analogy.
I think I need an analogy for every episode.
Maybe we can do one with our next time.
No, I love it.
Don't stop me from doing it.
You can do it.
I can do it.
I'll get it out.
I know.
I saw this analogy and I reframed it a little bit.
What it said is imagine that you are skiing, right?
And I've never skied before, but I can visualize it when you ski.
That's like a certain path that left from the previous people that go down from the
hill.
Right.
And it's so obvious and it's so easy that you follow the same path, even though you
don't know where it leads to, whether it leads you to fall down the hill or cliff or it leads
you back to the finish line.
And it's so easy that we follow the path because that's what our instinct will do.
But what if it leads you to the cliff, right?
And you really need to try hard to make a new route for yourself and don't follow those
pathway that left from previous.
I think the way that we learn for say the conflict resolution style that we have with
our parents is so wired in our brain that we go on the autopilot mode on that's how
I do it.
And as you said, I find it works for like years and I would assume this is a healthy
coping skills, but maybe it's not.
I think in the twenties, I have a lot of those moments that I realized my previous coping
skills or like management style is not healthy and making an effort in making that real route
for healthier coping skills or like a conflict resolution style is so important.
And I will say I'm similar to you that I avoid often when conflict happens, but at
the same time when conflict happens within my family, whether it's between my parents,
between my sister and my dad or my sister and my mom, I'm usually the one who mediates
between the two.
So I don't avoid it, but more like finding the middle ground for them.
So you're the middle man.
Yeah.
And I think throughout my entire life, that's how I resolve conflicts.
It's more about finding them that middle ground that everyone can agree on and just,
yeah, just agree on.
And that's true, you know, within my high school friends when they're, you know, there's
a lot of drama in high school.
A lot.
I wasn't part of it, but let's say there are two main parties, but then I'll usually be
the middle person and just try to mediate between them and help them communicate better,
I guess.
And do you feel good of being a middle man?
I think within my family, yes, because it does help.
But then within high school friends, it really didn't help that much because they don't want
to resolve it.
I don't think they have that intention of resolving it.
So no matter how much you mediate between the two, it doesn't work.
But I think that, yes, definitely partially I do feel good if effective that I can mediate
between the two parties.
I think that's partially why I chose the path of counseling.
It's more about, okay, I can help resolve an issue.
But actually going into counseling at rest, it's not really, I don't resolve it.
Like oopsie, the wrong route.
No, but it's interesting.
I think it's a different way of helping them resolve it themselves.
I'm interesting.
You're interesting, yeah.
You're very interesting.
I do agree.
No, I'm interested in what you said is you find it works with your family, but not with
your friends, but you still hold on being the middle person.
I think the middle person is very, I would say it's a peacemaker and value the harmony,
the peace between people in general.
I have that value of that.
Even though it doesn't work.
I would say that obviously there are times it doesn't work as effective as I think.
Maybe now that they look back or maybe they do see maybe it did work, but at that time
it wasn't for me, I want to say it worked completely well.
But then I think it does move out some of the edges, but not like a hundred percent.
I'm curious when you're seeing the two different parties in high school, are they both confronting
or are they both avoidant or they are different?
I think mainly confronting.
I think it's just asking people to choose sides.
I think it's often times I would realize that there's no right and wrong.
It's just different perspective, different views.
I mean, yes, there are times where I feel like, okay, this is right, that is wrong.
But more than not, most of the things in life, I would say there isn't a very definite answer.
I think it goes back to, actually I link it to a philosophy question, it's more like is
there a definite truth?
But I mean, that's another thing.
And definitely I agree, there is a definite truth, but there are a lot of things, it's
more about preferences, it's more about perspectives.
There's no right and wrong.
I wish we were friends when we're in high school.
And now I reflect that I sometimes will be the middleman between my friends.
I would say the two parties are both avoidant.
I think that's why I asked, is it avoidant or confronting?
From a middleman perspective, I struggle a lot because they both don't want to communicate.
And I'm like, oh, it's getting nowhere.
I got frustrated and then I give up.
Like I got annoyed.
And it's so interesting from seeing your perspective as well.
And I absolutely agree, a lot of conflict starts from the lack of communication, the
lack of understanding the perspective and the order I get at least, I really see the
importance of communication and that minimizes the conflict as well.
Yeah.
And I think when I was thinking of like, when you asked me, is it more confronting or more
avoidance?
I was thinking that specific scenario, it was confronting, but there are times, obviously,
I think a lot of us do avoid it, tend to avoid it.
I think coming from like an Asian background, I think that's how we grow up towards is more
about avoidance.
But at the same time, even I think even if it's avoidance, there is a useful peacemaker
maintaining that harmony between the two or even more parties.
Yeah.
I think every person plays a different role in a friendship as well.
For sure.
And as we said, if that friends is important or we fail with the friendship, we'll try
our best to resolve it.
Yeah.
But what if we can't?
Yeah.
And as we said, it might be one person really want to resolve it and the other person have
no intention or both parties have no intention, then how do we manage that friendship throughout?
I think a better, for me, I would say like it's how to manage a friendship ending.
It doesn't have to be a fallout.
I think for me, like if it's a fallout, there must be a conflict, must be an argument.
Whether if it's passive or more active, it's still a disagreement.
But I think it's, like personally, I would say like how to manage a friendship ending.
It's just, I think like how I feel, it's just part of life.
Like it must end at a certain point because that's how I grew up learning about friendship.
It's like, okay, like that's high school friends.
And it's like going back to what I said at the beginning of the episode is we'll go out
separate ways and that's just life.
So you're not accepting it?
Yeah, it's accepting it.
And I think when you say fallout, it's like disagreements.
And I don't think I have that much of disagreements with my friends.
There are little spots here and there, but I wouldn't say like a big disagreement that
will lead to ending the friendship.
I do agree.
I think the older I get, there's more friendship that just slowly fade out.
As we said previously, it can be the physical distance that you guys are in different time
zone, different country, or it can just be growing with like different values that you
just have make new friends or whatever.
I agree that there's sometimes it's just gradually disconnect with each other.
And I do realize maybe because I'm the afforded time, it might be more interesting to get
a perspective from a friend that is more confident.
But for me, I just slowly let it die out.
Of course, there's some friends that I do wish I put more effort in resolving it, the
conflict or just putting more effort in maintaining that friendship.
But of course, it's two ways.
It's not one way as well.
It can be the person putting effort in it, but then at that time, I don't have that capacity
vice versa.
So I think I agree with what you said is part of our life.
And what's more important to me is that reflection of why this happened.
Because I think a lot, as you can tell, I will think of why I don't hang out with this
friend anymore.
Is it because we grew differently, we have different values, or is it because just the
distance?
Is it because certain things that I did?
And definitely it's about the balance.
You can't overthink as well.
But I think having that reflection is very important in helping me to understand in the
future and I can step in earlier if similar situation happens and I can either put more
effort in it or just having that conversation with the other friend earlier to avoid that
for a while.
So after that reflection, what would you say your approach to friendship now?
I don't know.
I think I'm still learning.
Yeah, and it's okay.
We definitely don't have the answers and I don't have the answers.
Or like the perfect answer.
And there's no perfect friendship as well.
Exactly.
But I think a few things that I learned from the past is knowing how to determine the quality
of closeness of a friendship.
How would you define that?
I honestly don't know, but I heard a friend, she, when I was talking to her, oh yeah, how
do you determine the level of friendship that you have with another person?
I didn't expect an answer because I didn't have one.
That's why I asked.
I was trying to gain, like get more perspective and then see how I determine it as well.
And she said, oh, it depends on how much money I'm willing to lend to that person.
What does that mean?
So if I'm willing to lend this person $10, then okay, it's around $10.
Yeah, I agree with you.
It doesn't mean our friendship is only worth $10, but it's a comparison with other people.
Let's say I would lend another person $100.
That means that friendship means more to me than your friendship.
I've never think that way.
And that also, I was like, oh, that's a very interesting way of measuring a friendship.
Personally, I wouldn't come, I wouldn't measure it like that.
Yeah.
But there's a very interesting way of measuring it.
I think that links to, do you trust that person or how would you overcome those crisis situations
of one of your friends and what you're willing to help them?
Yeah, I think it's more about the trust.
I think for my friend is like when she said I will lend this amount of money, she would
just assume, okay, I'm not going to get this amount back.
And is it worth it?
Exactly.
If it's okay, then lend it to that person.
But I think that's how she measured it.
It was just an interesting thing of giving that.
I wouldn't measure it that way.
I think I want more measure of the, it's very abstract and vague.
It's more about the connection you have with a person.
And it's very hard to put it in words, but I think everyone has that connection with
someone.
Is that okay, like this person kind of gets what I'm saying, even if I don't convey it
very well, then perhaps I'm more close to this person.
Or maybe it depends on if I want to hang out with this person more or this another person
more.
I think it depends more about that.
That's how I would say, oh, this person I'm quite close with.
I think for me, it's very hard to think one.
And I think I'm still learning or exploring at this moment because I'm a people pleaser.
So I want to be close friend with everyone.
Or I'm not friends with them.
And I think I used to have no in between.
So I don't really need to measure the quality or the closeness of a friendship.
But I think now I'm exploring.
And one thing that I agree what you said is very abstract for me as well is if I'm in
a group setting and if that person is there, it makes it easier.
I wish that person is there as well.
That when I hang out with that person, it doesn't drain me and I don't go home and think of
did I say something wrong or oh my goodness, it's so tired.
Hang out with that friend.
Or is it you feel good after meeting that friend?
I think that's two ways that I measure it now.
But I would be interested to hear more on how others measure their friendship as well.
Would you say because you're very introverted and earlier you mentioned that you won't put
consecutive days where you meet up with other people.
Would you say if you give up that alone time, would you say you would give up that alone
time and spend with another person?
Would you say, oh, that person, hey, you're pretty close with because you're okay with
just losing that personal time that you have with yourself to recharge and you're spending
time with the other person?
Or would you say that is more so of your people pleasing side?
That is interesting.
No, I won't compromise my personal time.
Okay.
Or maybe I just, I don't know.
I've never think that way.
I think for now I will say having quality time with myself is still very important.
I genuinely enjoy it.
Yes.
Yeah.
But at the same time, if my friend asked me out, I would give it up.
But then after that, I need extend the period of time of quality time with myself afterwards.
Will you give it up for all your friends?
No.
Yeah.
So I think my question is some of the friends that you're willing to give up, maybe you
do value that friendship more than other people.
That would be a good way to measure as well.
I think that's a lot of people, how they measure it's about that.
Especially if they're introverted.
Introverted, I don't think it's a thing.
But introverted, yes.
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's a really good measure as well.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, cool.
We kind of have some sort of idea of how we measure it.
But at the same time, honestly for me, I would say after determining that, I try to connect
more with the people I'm less close with.
I put in more effort.
Especially if I do realize, oh, the other person do want to spend more time with me.
I would put in more effort.
So I feel bad at the same time because the people that I'm more close with, I will neglect.
But then the people that I'm less close with, I'll put in more effort, I'll put in more
time and energy towards that.
I won't make you do that.
I think after you realize that, oh, I'm not that close, maybe I should.
That means that I think it goes back to what I said, I want to show my care and show my
love towards that person even more.
Because I've shared that with the people I'm close with already.
Then I will want to share more to the people that I'm less close with.
That is interesting because I'm completely opposite.
I think that's actually a really nice way to approach new friends as well.
I would never think that way.
What would you do?
Previously, I tried to make friends with everyone and I realized it's so draining.
And the older I get, I get busy, I have uni, I have work and I don't have that much energy
and time to spend with everyone.
So I choose precisely or I narrow down to certain people that I would want to invest
time in that I value the friendship and that use up my energy already.
So I sometimes struggle to expand my social circle and I'll just focus on what I have
now.
So it's very interesting to hear from your perspective that you would share your love
to even more people.
And I think that amazing.
Thank you.
I think it's more about, I will say it, I still find it very difficult to expand my
social circle.
I wouldn't say I have a lot of friends, but it's how I approach new friends at the moment.
And I think it does tie back as I was going up, that's how I approach friendship as well.
And I think that's something I need to learn as well.
And that links to the second point that to know the expectation within that friendship,
because I always just say, oh, I want friends that connect that I personally values those
deep conversations.
So I would love to have friends that have that awareness of self growth and we can talk
and that conversation energize me.
So I hold onto those friends that I feel comfortable talking about my feelings.
But you sometimes have friends that just want to hang out and have fun.
And for those friends, you can't just walk straight to them and say, Hey, I want to talk
about my feelings.
Do you do that to your other friends?
I mean, at least I've never heard you say that to me.
Like, Hey, I want to talk about my feelings.
I've never heard that.
No, it's just a more exaggeration way.
You know, like I can't have friends that just talk about self growth for like 10, 12 hours.
And you need some friends that just have fun and meet your other values as well.
Yeah, other needs as well.
So I think just learning that you don't need every single friend to meet all the values
that you want.
You can have different group of friends.
That's how you, when you expand your social circle, then you can have different friend
group that meets your different needs.
Yeah, I agree.
I like to meet different needs.
Some you might want to share your feelings with.
Some you want to just have fun or even perhaps your hobbies.
Maybe you have different hobbies because you guys share the same hobbies.
Then you guys will talk about that hobby and maybe it will link to other parts, other needs
as well.
Yeah.
But I would say it's definitely hard to find one person that meets all of them.
So I think it's okay to have different friends meeting different needs.
And that's just how I view friendships are as well.
It's just, yeah, it's just different people who have the different expectations of friendship
as well.
They have different expectations.
So not only we have the expectation, we also have to meet their needs as well.
And perhaps we're not meeting some of their needs as well.
So then that's how different people have different friends.
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
And that links to that self-awareness, knowing what are the needs you want to have from a
friendship.
It's so easy to say, oh, I don't click with that friend.
I think what's more important is working on yourself and knowing the awareness of what
kind of friends that you want or just what are the pet peeves that we just mentioned.
Just working on yourself because you don't know what kind of friendship or what kind
of relationship that you want to be in until you know who you are.
So I think working on yourself is very important as well.
And going back to when you said knowing our values and needs and when your friends meet
them, actually show gratitude towards them as well.
So thanking them for actually, for example, if you want to share your feelings and just
acknowledging thank you, thanking them for allowing you to have that space to share your
feelings, your emotions so freely, so safely in that space.
And I think that's something I wish I'd learned earlier, showing that gratitude on thank you
so much for doing this for me.
Thank you for giving your space that provide that safe, trusting environment and not take
it for granted is very important.
I don't know if it's a cultural thing because I never do that back in Hong Kong.
You never say, oh, thank you.
Like, you know, it's something that I learned when I came to Australia that everyone is
so friendly and they say, oh, I love you.
Thank you, sweetie.
Thank you, love, you know, and I have friends as well.
They genuinely vocalize it and say thank you so much for doing this for me.
And when I hear that, I feel so good that I wish I can do it to others as well.
So I think showing gratitude is something very important.
Even till now, I try my best to do so as well.
Yeah.
And I think that covers most of the way of how we approach friendships now based on the
reflections that we have done and our past experiences as well.
Perhaps we can do a conclusion of what we talked about today and just kind of going
through the main points of the stuff that we covered.
Yeah.
We've talked about the four main reasons of friendships dissolve in our 20s.
Again, that doesn't mean it's only in your 20s.
It can be 30s.
It happens more often in your 20s is one, the physical distance of, say, you or your
friend moving away to the emergence of new friends.
Three, growing dislike for a friend.
And lastly, interference from romantic partners or relationships.
And we also talk about the conflict resolution styles that we carried from our childhood
to adulthood and whether that's healthy or unhealthy.
Yeah.
And at the conflict resolution style, we found that research from Miriam Hendoort.
And we also talk about how we manage friendship flow out or like ending a friendship.
What are our approach to friendship now based on our past experience?
We have talked about how to measure the quality or closeness of a relationship and also knowing
the expectation, doing those active reflection on yourself.
And lastly, and most importantly, showing gratitude.
And as we said, the reflection is very important and perhaps it is important to for the listeners
to reflect on their friendships as well.
I think, yeah, absolutely.
I wonder, do you resonate with the reasons that we mentioned on why friendship looks
so different when compared to high school?
And what are your approach to friendship now based on the past experience?
You can journal about it or you can just simply sit and have a drink and reflect on it.
And we're curious on what you think.
Yeah.
And you can perhaps talk to a friend about it, be someone that you trust.
And it's just a very good process of voicing it out and just perhaps even telling your
friend your expectations of how your friendship looks like as well.
And if you resonate with this podcast, you can share it with your friends as well.
That will be a really easy conversation opener.
Yeah.
And definitely helps us out.
Yeah.
Thank you for that, for being so vulnerable in this podcast and just sharing your thoughts
and also your gratitude towards me, your compliments.
Yeah.
Thank you for sticking around and we'll see you guys in the next episode.
And again, we'll release a new episode on every Wednesday at 4 a.m. AEST time.
If you want to check us out, follow our Instagram, the wineyour20s.podcast.
And again, thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.
Bye!
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