Welcome to our podcast, The Why in the 20s.
My name is Viv and I'm Nat.
We are two counselors in our mid-20s navigating our adulthood away from our home country,
exploring the why questions we encounter relating to relationships, identities and uncertainties.
So whether you're listening to our podcast while going for your walk or doing the chores,
welcome on board and let the journey begin.
Welcome back.
Welcome to another episode of The Why in your 20s.
Today we have a special guest.
My housemate.
One of my housemates.
I'm so glad you say it's housemate, not like people that I live with.
Is that a special title?
No, because I think she don't feel home to begin with.
So she would say, oh, people that I live with.
Side note, we recently changed our WhatsApp group name.
At first it was camp.
Yeah.
And then our other housemate said, is camp over yet?
And then I changed it recently to camp is officially over.
Aww.
That's cute.
We celebrate it.
Aww.
It was really special.
So housemate slash good friend.
Aww.
I think that's very wholesome.
That's wholesome.
You can see me saying free aw.
That means it's wholesome.
Yeah, that's the bar that we're going to go with.
That's my rating.
Three aws.
Aw aw aw.
That's very Asian of you.
I should really pay more attention while I'm recording because I do realize I have some
certain sound that to the point I find it annoying as well.
Wait, sorry.
But when I say, mm, mm, aw.
You realize the thing?
You know, I've been starting to edit those out.
Honestly, even I know as a listener, I can tell.
And I caught myself doing that while I'm doing counseling sessions with client.
Maybe I should pay a bit more attention to it.
I think it's OK from time to time.
It's just not every time when the client tells you something.
True.
Mm mm.
Sorry, let's get back to our guests.
We have so many tangents.
We have a special guest today.
Do you want to introduce yourself?
So I'm Radhika.
And I think we just said that I'm Viv's housemaid and good friend.
I prefer that.
Aw.
I studied with Vivianette, the master's of counseling, and I'm working as an AOD counselor.
Woohoo.
AOD.
I think the context is that Nat also works as an AOD counselor, so we just appreciate
each other's support.
Yeah, you guys appreciate each other's counselors.
Yeah.
Not like celebrating AOD.
Yeah.
Just I'm glad more people in the AOD field.
I'm sure you guys are doing great work.
Thank you.
What's that inhale?
If she was thinking, should I take the thing?
Of course.
Of course, you should.
I'm sure you guys are doing good work.
I hope so.
It's a frustrating job.
It is.
Especially in certain situations.
But anyway.
Yeah.
We'll jump straight into the topic today.
What are we talking today?
Maybe we can just go through like a brief definition of what it is first, because some
of us may not be very familiar with the concept.
Yeah.
So we're going to talk about the concept of AOD.
So I'm going to talk about AOD.
I think a lot of time you don't even realize that you're doing it.
Exactly.
Yeah, which is why I disagree with the definition.
I think it's a tendency to do so.
It's just, do we know that we do that?
Sometimes.
But I would say most of the time you don't.
Yeah.
It's just that when you dive deeper and you actually reflect on your behavior, actions,
then you realize, hmm, maybe that's what I'm doing.
Yeah.
And you get better at recognizing that you are doing that.
You got an example?
Why don't we let the guests answer first?
That's emotional.
Yeah, what's an emotional avoidance right there?
Why don't you reflect on that moment again?
I would say that's not emotional avoidance.
It's just avoidance.
Oh, that's behavioral avoidance.
It's just avoidance in general.
Honestly, I think we've established that I'm avoided all the way, right?
Yeah.
We'll all share at some time anyway.
I know, I know.
I'm just avoiding a bit.
Yeah, you want to get comfortable with it.
Yes, exactly.
Okay.
Yeah.
What was the question again?
Is there an example where you kind of realize that, oh, this is an emotional avoidance behavior
and then you kind of get more awareness over time?
I think, well, our friends are going to hate this, but studying in this course for sure
has been a real mirror towards reflection about emotional avoidance and specifically
having friends who are in touch with their emotions and they constantly ask you questions
about how you're feeling leads you to first avoid them, then maybe reflect about them
a little bit and then continue to avoid but with the self-awareness.
Yes.
I completely agree, especially with the part where friends are very in touch with their
feelings and I hate it.
Yeah.
Nan, do you disagree with that?
I disagree.
Disagree that you should hate your friend up emotionally.
Oh no, I'm not.
Okay, I know what I said.
I think I'm like, I know I actually hate them.
It's just a bit annoyed at times because I am an avoidant person, right?
So I want to continue to avoid.
Yeah.
Friends that I made in this course especially, they're very in touch with their emotions.
Yeah.
It's very confrontational to have friends like that because it forces the emotionally
avoidant person to reflect and that is not fun.
I think I'm the opposite.
You're the emotional friend, should I say?
Yeah, I think I'm like always confronting my emotion as well and every time I really
enjoy those like deep, deep conversation, I dig deep into my emotion.
I rip them off too, you know.
That sounds like a ghastly process and I do not enjoy it.
I would want to know why I feel miserable at that time and I would just look for the
answer.
But sometimes I do avoid as well like certain situations.
Sorry, have you always been in touch with your emotions?
I think it's when I moved to Australia because I have like quite a hard time mentally in
high school and I think that awareness as you said is very important because when you
don't have that awareness, you feel miserable for no reasons.
So after the experience when I came to Australia and of course I started studying psychology,
you know a bit more about mental health and all that stuff.
As you get more awareness around mental health and I think at some point I'm more addicted
to it now.
I love it.
I love going into emotions and exploring on my own.
Right.
So you want to do that by yourself.
I feel safer if you're doing it on your own but then if you're sharing with people, that's
another thing.
There's a different level of vulnerability involved.
Because you don't know if that person, what kind of response they will give it to you.
Would that be too much for them?
Would that be traumatizing to them?
You never know.
Of course when you share, you kind of expect certain reaction or like answers or responses.
But what if the person didn't give that to you?
Then you'd be like, oh, maybe I should just keep it to myself.
Would you say that means that you're emotionally in touch with your feelings when you're by
yourself but to your friends you're still emotionally avoidant?
No, I think to most of my friends, this.
You've been nodding your head.
The person is like, no, she's absolutely not.
No, I'm like an open book when I'm with friends.
It's very dangerous because when I first met new people, I can open it very quickly.
It's a good thing but it can be a dangerous thing as well.
But I think to certain people, I'm more giving to myself.
For example, maybe my parents.
Yeah.
Let's...
Let's pick up silence.
But I think there's definitely a difference between friends and family.
Yeah.
And also the topic at hand as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
Do you feel the same way?
100%.
I think even with friends, like which friend you're speaking to, what aspect of their life
or when you met them or what context you know them from.
Every relationship, I think, has actually a different kind of experience of how you share
emotions and what kind of emotions you would share with them.
But is there a particular reason why you feel like you're more avoidant emotionally?
I think it feels safer, like you said.
I thought the dangerous word was a bit much, but actually it's not.
It feels a lot safer to be emotionally avoidant.
And I think personally, I've not been someone who struggles with, for example, mental health a lot.
I am more on Viv's side where it's easier to just kind of not care or like take life as it comes.
And a big part of that is emotional avoidance.
When you don't know what you're experiencing or like when you don't sit and reflect on your emotions,
it's easy to kind of get over, say, embarrassing moments in life or get over things that did not make you feel good
because you're not thinking about them.
So life has made me this way.
Maybe too many embarrassing moments in life has made me this way.
You just have to not care, or else you'll be so consumed with all those mistakes.
Yeah, but what about you?
Yeah, you're being a bit quiet.
No, I'm just enjoying the conversation.
I'm soaking in all the knowledge, all the insights of your life.
Well, we appreciate you being a good listener, but I think it's time to put you on the mic.
Sorry, what's the question?
Do you feel like you're emotionally avoidant in all of your relationships or just some?
I couldn't even finish the question because I'm out of context.
We did an online questionnaire thing yesterday, and I can attach it on the reference,
but it's like a spectrum for you answering the question and see whether you are more avoidant
or anxious type of attachment in different kinds of relationships.
It could be family, friends, partner, and it's just in general strangers.
And for Viv, is it okay if I share?
She's avoidance all the way, like all clustered in the avoidance box.
Which honestly, I expected it.
I expected it too.
Of?
Yeah.
From knowing you for the past one and a half year and living with you for the last six months,
I can attest to that.
Yeah, no, I do avoid everything, not just emotions, but everything.
I just avoid it.
It is dangerous to the fact that I feel like I don't want to have those emotions.
And just numb myself.
And that's very safe because if you don't feel anything, then you won't feel the negative emotions as well.
But you might suddenly have an emotion pop up that is out of your control.
And you wonder, oh, why I have this emotion?
I don't think I have that too much.
And honestly, anything that I experienced that it's really quote unquote overwhelming,
I would consider as, okay, it is out of my control.
Just let it go.
Right.
So you're able to avoid that as well?
Yeah, it takes skills and it takes practice as well.
I'm not encouraging people to do that, but that's how I live my life.
And I get very trained with that.
So I'm very skilled and just let it go.
And then you just avoid it.
And that there is a counselor talking about emotions.
Well, to be fair, I'm not a counselor.
You hold a master's degree.
I'm sorry, but that makes you a professional.
To be a sidetrack, honestly, a lot of times when I talk to clients about certain things,
I'm like, oh, I did not do that as well.
Sometimes when we ask clients to say, do it be a self-care, like simple thing, look after yourself.
No, I did not look after myself at all.
I feel the best to feel that way as well.
Oh yeah, 100%.
I talk to my clients about sleep hygiene all the time and I have the worst sleep hygiene in the entire world.
It's true, but we have the knowledge that doesn't mean we need to practice the skills.
We should.
It's harder to practice it ourselves.
That does help us acknowledge how hard it is, though.
If those things came easier to us, then we wouldn't be able to, I guess, have that kind of empathy for their struggle.
At least that's how I rationalize it.
No, I think that is true, though.
We recognize how difficult it is for them.
We can really connect with them on that level.
Oh, absolutely.
But anyway, do you feel like it is because sharing emotions is scary and being vulnerable is scary?
That's the reason why you're emotional avoidance or that's other reasons?
I think that is a large part of it.
And I do agree with Viv in the sense that numbing is easy.
It does take a lot of skill and practice.
So at this point in my life, yes, I am emotionally avoidant because it is scary to be in any other way or exist in any other way.
But I'm not too sure still like if that's right now have the self-awareness to vocalize this.
But I've probably been this way my entire life and I don't think emotions being scary was the reason.
It could be different reasons at different points in my life.
And that leads to my counselor talk.
Yes.
Do your parents avoid emotions as well?
Or do you guys openly talk about emotions at home?
I think I don't want to generalize to all Asians or South Asians, but it's a little bit cultural to not talk about your emotions all the time or at least talk about all the emotions.
So we would talk about say if I had a really big emotional reaction or an anger outburst, maybe my parents would talk to me about it.
But that's not necessarily a conversation we would have.
I remember one thing, though, like you would cry as a child for sure.
You can never be not cry as a child.
But my dad's philosophy was when someone is crying, you should leave them alone and not ask them too many questions because that would make them cry more.
So my mom wanted to approach and she wanted to be like, tell me what's wrong and let me fix it.
But my dad was of the opinion that when someone's crying, you should let them cry it out.
If they need support, they will tell you what's wrong.
But if you keep poking them while they're crying, it will just lead to more tears and it won't lead to anyway.
And obviously, I had both spectrums exist in my life, but this is just about crying.
So I think I prefer my dad's style.
I wonder about emotional avoidance.
Yeah, yeah. So I guess in that way, it's always been part of my life.
I've been avoided to a certain level.
If I want to cry, even as a child, I would rather do it by myself than in front of other people.
I guess there is some level of like my parental influence.
But I still chose to be one way than the other.
But definitely, we don't have the vocabulary of emotions.
We don't say, hey, did that make you feel embarrassed?
What can we do about it?
Even now, I feel that's definitely not a part of the conversations.
You share happy emotions, but not so many of the negative ones, I guess.
Yeah, is it the same for you?
Yeah, we're directing the question to Viv.
I was going to continue the conversation.
Okay, okay.
You can.
No, I was just wondering if you see a person crying, would you approach them?
Or would you be asking questions like what happened and all that?
I think with the counseling training, it would be a very different response.
I would probably sit with them, let them cry, but I wouldn't walk away.
I would still sit with them, maybe check in.
Do you want me to stay?
Do you want a glass of water?
But I wouldn't necessarily ask what's going on unless they want to talk to me about it.
Once the crying has subsided, that's when I would ask what's going on.
But that again comes with training from being a counselor.
I don't think I would have had the same response four or five years ago.
I would have avoided.
I would have tried to walk away or not feel comfortable sitting with them there.
Great response, honestly.
I think it's a combination of both your parent, not just completely avoiding them,
but also caring for them in a different way as well.
What would you guys do if you saw someone crying?
No, I think that's a great answer.
I think I would definitely do the same, just sitting there.
It depends if they have someone else already though.
If they already do, I would not approach at all.
It's interesting if I swap the role of if I'm the one that's crying.
I wouldn't want people to be around me, but if I saw people crying,
I would go there and ask, do you want me to be here or is there something I can help?
But I don't know, just from a personal experience, if I'm crying, I want to be alone.
And if the person clearly finds a place that is out of all the people there,
obviously they want to be alone.
But yeah, I agree with you.
If I put myself in those shoes, I would not want another person to be with me as well.
You know what's funny? Me too.
I would not like anyone to see me cry.
If I want to cry, I'm finding that corner in that building or that park
or whatever you want me to find, and I want to cry by myself.
Because I actually have a reason. I feel like I don't cry.
Okay, no, I was going to say I don't cry a lot, but I do cry a lot.
But more like if I let myself cry, I would just go all out.
But then if there's someone there, you feel like you're not allowed to do so,
especially when the other person gives you tissue.
It feels like it's an indication for you to stop crying.
So I would prefer not having someone there.
Even if I see someone else crying, I would not give them tissue
because I want them to allow themselves to feel whatever they're feeling.
That's really nice.
But I don't associate tissue things.
I think what I've learned from client workers, if the person looks for a tissue, I would offer it.
Oh, yeah.
But I wouldn't offer it myself, though.
But yeah, it would be different in a non-counseling setting, for sure.
Other than the sidetrack, have you always been emotionally avoided?
I think so.
I think I've seen instances where people get angry and it doesn't really help with the situation.
And a lot of people in my life, I would say the only emotion is either angry or just neutral.
So I associate emotions with just anger.
So I feel like anger doesn't really help with the situation.
The circumstances are still there.
The situation is still there.
It just taught me to don't need to feel angry, just rationalize, find a solution for it,
because angry doesn't help you.
So you feel like it's useless to share emotion anyway, so might as well just keep it over voted?
Not share per se, but more expressing it.
It doesn't have to be sharing with another person, but just expressing it like me hitting the table if I'm angry.
I wouldn't do that because expressing it doesn't help.
So I have to find the solution for it.
So you find the bandaid, but you hurt yourself instead of crying about it?
Well, I mean, that's not the goal of it.
But it really depends on the situation.
If the situation is a very small thing, it's okay.
Even if you put a bandaid, it will heal itself.
But if it's for something bigger, then definitely emotional avoidance is not healthy at all.
The wound will still be there. It won't be healed.
Interesting.
No, but I'm actually the opposite.
I have experience where, so I say my parents, my mom is more like the angry,
but then she won't say the reason, that type of person.
Whereas I know when my dad is mad, there will be a reason that he will explicitly say out.
So I got a bit of both for different parents.
And I think you both are like emotional avoidance.
But for me, I'm like the anxious type.
I don't avoid it, but I'm more anxious.
I'm always like guessing.
So I think I got that from my mom when she's mad, but she didn't really tell the reason why.
So me growing up, I'm always guessing, oh, what is she mad about?
Or is there something I did wrong?
And obviously it's always something that I, me or my sister did it wrong.
For example, we didn't clean our room or we left the dishes and then packed away.
There's a million reasons, you know, as a child.
So I always grew up anxious guessing what people's emotions and the reason behind.
So I never avoid it, but I'm always anxious approaching emotions, if that makes sense.
That does make a lot of sense.
So it's interesting when you said when someone expressed their emotion and you find that unhelpful.
That's why you kind of not expressing it.
For me, it's the opposite.
I think it's got to do with personal predisposition, like because your sister or like your sister would have had a different response,
maybe to the same expression of emotions.
So it also got to do with the individual, how they interpret.
A follow up question to that story was why do you think you took on your mother's emotions and not your dad's?
I think because I'm closer to my mum.
Dad is always the father figure.
You only go to them when big things happen.
But whereas my mum, she's more following up with my schoolwork and all other stuff,
like all other extracurriculum activities, cooking, housework, basically everything.
So I feel like I'm more in contact with my mum.
Yeah.
I think it's 50-50, you might end up following what your dad did or following what your mum did.
I think that's just how you pick it up.
Yeah.
I think it also depends on what kind of reactions you get from your friends growing up.
If you've expressed certain emotions, have you gotten an appropriate response or have you been dismissed?
That would also affect your attachment style as to would you repeat that expression of emotions or not.
Your school friendships become really important in your life growing up.
So you're spending a lot more time with your school friends as opposed to your parents at that point.
And you also value those friendships more.
And at the end of the day, especially for high school students, I feel you end,
because you're going through those developing ages, you're going through a lot of crisis situations,
and you end up expressing emotions in crisis.
So what kind of reactions are appropriate at your high school and what are not
would definitely define what you learn about attachment.
Would you share those crisis situations and those emotions related to it to your friends?
If I'm in the crisis with them, maybe.
What about if you're in the crisis alone?
I think I wouldn't personally, but it's also because I did not have, you know,
I don't know if you guys had, but I never had a best friend growing up.
And so I never had that kind of intense emotional connection with anyone.
So I think that's also part of the reason, at least from what I've observed,
when people do have a very, very close friend that they share all of their emotions with,
they end up sharing the crisis as well.
But because I didn't have that, I had a lot of great friends,
but I did not have that one person that I was turning to for all of the problems in my life.
This is a very personal observation. It could possibly be not true for others.
So do you share certain topics to a certain friend?
Is that how you dealt with your situations?
Yes, 100%. I think, for example, if it was a crisis with studying,
I would share it with one particular friend.
If it was a crisis with a friendship group or like maybe any co-curricular activity,
I would share it with a friend that was involved in that activity with me then.
So if they have the context, it's easier to share it with them.
So it depends on the context. It doesn't really depend on the level of trust.
I mean, also that, usually it's that context that plays a bit more factor into it.
I think growing up, yes, because it's also that idea of if you went through the crisis with them,
they already have the context, you can't really avoid it.
It's happening in the moment.
So you can't really avoid it.
That's when you start to end up with...
So that's not by choice.
That's not by choice. Yeah, that's not by choice.
I guess it's by choice where you could like completely run away.
There's a level of choice involved in all situations, but I would say 70-30.
30% choice, 70% situation.
It's a random number.
Yeah, we got it.
But yeah, what about you guys though?
It's very interesting.
Back then, I didn't feel like it was...
I wasn't aware that it was a strategy for me to avoid emotions, but now reflecting back, I think it was.
Same with you, I did not have like a quote-unquote best friend.
I don't believe in it. Agreed.
But maybe it's the emotional avoidance part is talking.
Yes, I don't believe it. So I have a lot of different close friends.
I actively shared only certain parts in my life with different people and the emotions related to it.
At that time, I was like, I rationalized myself saying, yeah, of course I do that.
That's how I prevent myself from hurting.
Yeah. I was actually like, that's how I thought when I was growing up, but I didn't know it was emotional avoidance.
I didn't know it was a strategy for me to protect myself honestly. It was just safer.
I completely agree and I was the same.
Really? Like I completely disagree?
I think if one person, like your best friend, whatever, knows everything about you, think about it. It's scary.
You're scared that they will use that to go against you?
Not go against you, but if that relationship breaks down, it would hurt so much.
It could be a completely different matter.
It could be something not related to any of the like quote unquote secrets that you share with one another.
It could be something else completely.
Or that person may not be available anymore because they are dealing with a situation themselves like at home or they could be moving across the world.
It could be something else completely, but you'd lose that pillar.
And can I ask a question? Is it because you're studying in an international school, you know that your friends come and go?
So that's the way you protect yourself?
I know in the previous I said yes, and definitely that's part of the reason.
Because we're doing emotional avoidance topic, that's why I'm not going to avoid it.
But no, that's not the main reason. It's really to protect myself.
I feel like I've seen too many cases that happens where either betrayal or it could be something else like I said.
That where you really cannot count on another person. No one is actually that accountable in life.
Maybe your intention wasn't that, but you know they're humans and they make mistakes.
To avoid being hurt and going through the process of, oh, should I forgive this person?
I'd rather not go through that process.
No, I completely agree. And I hate that I agree this much, but I go to the story very often actually.
This is a specific example as well. This was in a boarding college.
I was living with everyone else and there was an incident that happened where people were mean to each other.
And I heard the same incident narrated by four different people with four completely different perspectives.
That's the other thing. Everyone has their own point of view and someone always gets hurt.
I'd rather not have a point of view.
Oh, I agree.
I'd rather not have a point of view.
I'm struggling here.
We're too strong. We're too avoidant.
And it's just so much safer to not have that perspective, to not have a point of view.
And that way you're not hurting other people, you're not hurting yourself, and you just go to the next situation.
But what are you trying to get out of it?
For example, if you choose to share your emotion, you choose to be emotionally vulnerable, what are you looking for? A solution?
I don't do that.
You don't do that.
You have to do it.
What are you looking for?
I'm looking for reassurance. I'm looking for a solution. I'm looking for a different perspective.
Because sometimes when I'm too emotional, my thoughts can be messy.
Getting a fresh eye can be helpful to that situation.
I think that's why when you feel your emotions, you get emotional.
And for me, it's like I numb it down so I don't get emotional.
My mind is very logical so I can think of solutions. I can think of new perspectives.
I can do all that, what you just said, reassure myself as well by myself.
And I know it's not probably the most efficient way, most effective way, but it has gotten me through 25 years of my life, 26 years of my life.
That's how I developed that.
I'm not saying it's healthy, definitely not.
No part of this is healthy. Let's emphasize that.
But that's a perspective.
But I believe that's our best friend. I suppose I disagree.
With everything we've discussed.
With everything, every last 10 minutes, Nat completely disagrees.
I'm glad because we have different perspectives and want to learn more about your perspective as well.
I absolutely agree when you become too vulnerable to a person and when that person is gone, it hurts so much.
It happened. But for me, I still want to believe in it. I still want to believe that's the best friend that you can.
It's hard to... I know I'm not the best people to judge whether the person is good or bad.
I'm always the opposite. If the person is bad, I always thought they are amazing.
I don't know. I just am terrible at judging.
That's so sad.
Are you saying you're a terrible judge of character?
Yeah, I'm terrible at it. I'm always wrong.
So you always go against your instincts? That's the solution?
No. I still follow my instincts.
What kind of logic is that?
See, this is an emotional person talking.
I do have friends. I do have best friends back in Hong Kong.
Even though we don't talk as much now, I still 100% trust them.
I feel like there's no way that they will betray me because we have known each other for so long.
The only way that they will be gone in my life is if we just slowly fade out the relationship.
I think that's the only reason why we lost touch.
I've lost friends that I've been so vulnerable to them and for some reason they're gone in my life.
But they still give me insights and they still give me valuable solution or reassurance or support around those times.
And I truly value that. So I won't because of that experience that I'm okay.
I don't trust anyone anymore, even though I know it will happen again.
But I think because that experience feels so good, I want to keep that and hope that it will happen again.
Wow, that's beautiful, that's genuinely beautiful.
I'm glad you had such special experiences that you want to keep it going even though it hurts.
Now that's courage. That is courage.
That is courage. That is really courage.
I do not have that courage, honestly.
I am not courageous at all.
I think that takes a lot of different perspective as well and a lot of factor.
Whether the bad experience that you had, quote unquote bad, I don't feel it's bad.
Is the person supportive as well or is it a bad ending?
I think more than the bad ending as well, it goes back to attachment styles as well in the sense that what you take from that experience.
So do you have a positive perspective on even a relationship ending badly or do you have a negative expectation from it going on?
So it definitely comes down to the individual because two people could have the exact same experience,
but it could affect their future relationships very differently.
There's no general rule for that.
But moving one more step, more vulnerable now.
If you're in a romantic relationship, do you want to be emotionally vulnerable even though you're more emotional avoidance?
Do we want to?
Want to.
Do you want to and will you?
That's a great question.
Want to and will you?
Do I have to answer first?
I can answer first.
Want to? Definitely in the future.
Far into the future.
Maybe, you never know, but I think I would want to definitely.
But will I is a different question.
I would want to be willing to.
It's very hard to do so and I think it takes time to actually open up and trust a person.
Honestly, for me, I don't think there's a difference between friendship and a partner.
The way I open up to the foundation definitely have to be friends.
And then if I trust them enough to be a friend, then I'll go further in, open up even more.
And I would say even for friends, I'm not willing to.
That's true.
I think rather than that, it takes me so long to open up.
It took me quite a while to open up.
And even till now, I wouldn't open up about everything.
Definitely not.
Maybe like 10% of my life.
Really? That's a lot.
That's not what I was expecting.
No, honestly, I think it's less than 10%.
But then it's a small amount of stuff that I'm willing to share at this moment.
And it's frustrating.
For you?
Yeah.
Why so?
Because the thing is I want to, but I'm not able to.
I'm not able to have that courage to do so.
I apologize for the counselor-like question, but are you actively trying to change that?
Work towards your want?
I actually think I am.
Oh.
No, seriously, I think I am.
Little steps.
Very small steps.
And active steps as well.
I would say it's still quite challenging to do so.
And the feedback, I mean, it's not negative.
It's either neutral or positive.
But yeah, what's the motivation of opening up?
To get more perspective? To get reassurance?
One, I don't need the reassurance.
Perspective, some people can give you new perspective.
But I feel like that's not a good enough reason to open up.
I think the only reason right now I can find is more about you want to be closer to another person.
And I don't want to, like right now, sometimes my motivation is out of guilt.
I don't want it's because of guilt.
I want mainly because I want to be closer with another person.
Aww.
So every time I share with you guys, I want to be closer to you guys.
Aww.
And it's not out of guilt?
I admit sometimes it's out of guilt.
For example, like sharing honestly anything.
It doesn't have to be emotions.
Yeah.
It's like anything.
It's like, for example, I'm getting a job.
I feel bad because I live with Raz and like, oh, she's going to know anyways.
So I have to tell her.
And then that because, oh, I told Raz already, then I should tell you too.
And that's how the cycle continued.
Yeah, exactly.
So that's really the way I think when I share with another person.
That's the reason what I'm looking for, because I'm like, if you don't need a reassurance,
if you don't need different perspective, why do you want to share?
I think it's just have a closer relationship.
And I think that's the main thing for friendship, for partner, for anything.
Emotion is such a big part.
Yeah.
What about Raz?
I think, no, I agree with you to a certain extent where opening up to friends is hard enough.
So with romantic partners, it would be harder.
And it has to be, oh, sorry.
You said that it's actually equal, right?
For friends and romantic partners.
I disagree with that a little bit in the sense that I do think romantic partners is a level up
because you just the sheer amount of time you spend with them.
And with friendships is a lot easier.
Again, it goes back to, you know, how much can they hurt you?
Not how much another person can hurt you, but it's more like how much you would lose without that connection,
without that kind of if they're not there in your life anymore,
how much of their unavailability would affect you.
And with friendships, you spend a lot of time with other people, but it's still limited.
But with romantic partners, just the ratio of time you spend with them increases a lot.
So that's why it feels more vulnerable to share in a relationship like that as opposed to a friendship.
What about you, Nat?
I think we need another episode around anxious type of action.
Without rest, you mean? Like find someone else that is...
No, sorry, not just without you, but more like finding someone else that's more anxious so that you can gang up.
I think that's what she means.
No, that's good though. I want to hear your perspective.
Yeah, because I feel like my experience is so different.
If I go on a first date, I can already open book and share everything if the person willing to listen.
But what's going through my mind is, oh, am I sharing too much that I'm overwhelming that person?
Would it be too much to that person that they ran away?
Or will it be me sharing my emotion makes them feel like we're very close, but we're not?
Like just a lot of questions, a lot of anxiety around how the person will react as well.
Because I have experience of me sharing fully myself to a person and end up making them feel like,
oh, we are kind of close. And I'm like, oh, I'm not ready to be close actually in other aspects.
I'm just naturally emotional, vulnerable and open book in a dangerous way.
I also have experience where I share emotions and then it's a bit too much that they don't know how to response.
And they just, they don't react. They just, they won't be like scared and sit there and ran away immediately.
But more like you can see them slowly fading out or like drifting out of your life.
So I think those tiny experience do intensify the anxious around.
Next time I share with new people, more than happy to share all about my life.
I can't write a book and share to everyone in the world, but how they think about me, I think that's what I'm anxious about.
So sometimes I'm hesitant to share.
I would say I'm hesitant to share certain topics with my parents because I don't know how they will react as well.
Or maybe I've shared and their reaction doesn't met what I'm expecting.
That's just one example, not just targeting my parents, but a lot of other relationship happens as well.
So of course, in a romantic relationship, I would want to be emotional, vulnerable to my partner, but they have to be able to be with me as well.
I think that's my concern.
That they are able to respond to your vulnerability.
Yes, because you know me, I ramble a lot.
I go deep, deep, deep, 100 meters down the ocean.
And sometimes you don't even know where I'm going.
I do think that that's a very fair asking of a romantic partner to be able to understand your emotions, hold your emotions.
I would imagine that if they're not able to offer that, then it's probably not a good match because emotional vulnerability does come up.
And that's what helps cement romantic relationships as well.
To a large extent.
Absolutely.
So I think anxious or avoidant, that's their pros and cons, I guess.
Pros and cons.
You were only in cons.
I mean, our emotional safety is a pro.
If you don't want to be too overwhelmed.
No, but even for me, like me being an open book is not the healthiest way as well.
Because you never know.
But like you said, you know, you learn from your experiences, those are still valuable experiences.
So you wouldn't know what kind of response you can get until you actually express yourself.
Actually, I feel like that is kind of healthy, even though you've been hurt, but you don't numb yourself.
You still have that courage to try and try and try again.
I think this numbing makes me feel more miserable because you're like, when can I get the closure?
That's because you want to know what you're experiencing, right?
That's why you want the closure.
If you experience your emotion, the closer you can get to an end for that quote unquote negative experience.
But then you numb it, it's still there.
And what if someone or one day something triggered or it got ripped off?
Then it's like, boom.
That's another question.
Like to me, that's more scary.
I would say yes, definitely.
So an emotional outburst that's more scary?
Like just because you're building up, it's like a volcano.
It's just building, building, building up, and then is it a major explosion or is it like a tiny explosion that they explode every few days?
I prefer the tiny explosion.
Have you experienced any of those big volcanoes?
Actually, I don't think so because I'm so skilled at avoiding it that it doesn't actually build up.
Like you said, because you view numbing as putting aside the emotions so that they're building up with the volcano.
But I feel numbing is more that you don't actually you don't even know what you're experiencing.
So what are you putting aside?
So I feel like I don't experience the emotion at all.
It's not like I'm actively avoiding feeling that.
It's just that I don't know what I experienced.
Yeah, definitely numbing is not just putting it aside.
It's just not feeling at all.
So you haven't even identified those emotions.
But the thing is, it does still get triggered even if you don't know the emotions.
So it's not really building it up, but more like it just explodes completely.
And you just don't know when until that triggers kind of hits.
But the thing is, if you say that, it means it has not been triggered yet.
To a certain extent, that's good.
You still have time to...
I have more emotions to set aside and let them keep building up.
No, that was not where I was going.
There's more time for you to actively try to identify emotions when it comes.
I'll say we're taking a healthier perspective.
Of course, I'm such a healthy person.
I also think that outbursts can look very differently.
So one is an anger outburst.
The other is an emotional crying outburst.
But an outburst could also be just feeling lethargic for a couple of days,
tired for a couple of days.
I personally do think that could also be an emotional outburst.
It's just less visible.
So that outburst could look very differently for different people.
Do you feel like your outburst is more the...
The second kind, yeah.
I think so because now that I'm thinking about it,
my outburst would never look like anger and irritation.
It would be a more subtle form of emotional expression.
It would be fatigue.
It would be like extreme tiredness.
For me, it's the heavy breathing.
You feel like you need more oxygen to breathe,
like the tightness in your chest.
I think that's for mine.
If you're saying a more subtle explosion.
Do you know what your emotional outburst would look like?
I think for me, it just comes in different ways.
I think it's all of the above.
But most of the time, only I can identify it.
Other people can't really see it.
Even if it's anger or irritation,
other people can't really feel the difference.
Because I think for me, even in daily life,
I would pretend to be irritated,
pretend to be angry in a humour way.
So other people can't really see the difference
between me actually angry
and just in a humour way of being angry.
Okay.
I'm just reflecting on all my interactions with you.
All I'm thinking about is that
it takes a lot of energy to be that way.
Do you actually think, oh, I need to hide this anger?
Oh, no, it just comes naturally.
But it's aftermath that I realise it.
I will notice it very quickly.
I don't really control it.
Because I can't really control it.
I just let it be.
And one other thing, I don't talk about emotions
because they're counsellors.
And it's annoying. It's so annoying.
We've discussed this before.
Every statement that you have,
you know it will come with a question.
And I think it's because they're not really my counsellor.
They won't reflect. It's more about the questions.
Oh, so like we ask more questions
because we're not counselling you.
Yeah. But I mean, even counsellors,
they will still ask the same questions,
but I feel like they would phrase it in a way
that they reflect and not that straightforward.
But then as friends, it's more the fact that,
okay, you're just giving me questions.
You know what's interesting?
I like that.
For example, I'm sharing my emotions to Viv.
The more questions she asks,
I feel like, okay, I get more perspective.
Because when I share emotion, I'm looking for perspective.
I'm looking for reassurance.
So because you guys are counsellor,
when I share my experience,
I feel like you guys can relate to me a bit more.
That guides me to a better place.
I think that's why I prefer actually talking to counsellor friends as well.
I think then it comes down to just what's the motivation for sharing.
Because you're seeking a closer relationship,
so you wouldn't want more questions.
But for you, you're seeking a different perspective and reassurance,
so you would want more questions to be asked.
For Viv, it's like I share, I'm closer, that's it.
No, also listen.
Listen and reflect it back, right?
That's what you were saying.
Reflect it back that we understood what you're sharing.
And not just ask more questions about it.
No, it's annoying.
It's not because of the motivation, I feel like.
It's annoying because I have to think more.
And it's the emotional avoidance where I want to avoid it.
Yes, I want to share it, but I also want to avoid it.
And there's another question we ask, you might not be ready as well.
Well, most of the time I know the answers already.
It's just like, oh, I have to share even more.
Anyways.
I think this is such a good opportunity to know each other a bit more as well.
I also do think we're a bit on a spectrum.
I kind of want to set myself aside from Viv.
I think I'm less on the spectrum.
Okay.
Thank you.
I don't mind the follow-up questions.
They might make me feel uncomfortable, but I don't mind them.
Like, I do want to be working towards not being that emotionally avoidant, maybe.
And like you said, I do like sharing.
I just don't like sharing emotions.
When I come back home, I do want to debrief about what my day was like.
I do like to talk about what's happened in my day.
I just don't want to feel the uncomfortable emotions.
So I don't mind sharing.
Okay, so moving forward, how do you think you can improve on that?
As you said, you want to.
Do I need to have all the solutions?
No, definitely not.
Yeah, of course not.
I think it's just sitting with my emotions, like maybe like setting aside time to being a little bit more intentional with my emotional vulnerability and having motivation to do that.
Because you get really comfortable being emotionally avoidant, so you don't feel the need for it.
But challenging yourself and finding the motivation for it would be step one.
Yeah, do you guys have any suggestions or how would you do it?
I think I absolutely agree to being more mindful about your emotions.
I think some people think mindfulness is like feel good, you're happy.
But sometimes you being more mindful can be a bit more uncomfortable afterwards.
It's not always the quote unquote good experience.
So definitely being mindful, practicing mindfulness on your emotions and not to escape or avoid them is very helpful.
First step.
Do you have any suggestions?
Actually, I am working towards that.
I'm just putting it out there.
I'm so aware that I'm emotionally avoidant.
That's why I'm working on it.
I definitely do set aside time to actually just feel the emotions.
And actually, you might notice like I just stay in my room.
I would say past two, three months, I would be just in my room lights off.
Yeah, yeah.
And they're just outside talking.
But I would stay in my room.
Sometimes it would be times where I'm actually just feeling my own emotions.
And it's scary to say the least.
Wow.
And it's not always a positive outcome.
I want to put it out there.
And it does lead to more things that you have to reflect on to be more aware of.
But it's a very good first step to set aside some time to be more intentional, to put it on one of your higher priorities on your list.
Because it's very important and not having those volcanoes just burst.
Yeah.
For people that are feeling really lost or don't know where to start, I think starting therapy is a really good way to go.
I agree with that.
And actually, that's one of the steps I took.
I started therapy.
Yay.
Kudos to you.
It's an amazing first step, honestly.
It takes so much courage.
And I recognize the clients who choose to go to the first session is very powerful.
It's very courageous.
Absolutely.
I think I've tried on my end as well.
Going to therapy, actually booking it online and then wanting to cancel it, rescheduling it to actually going it on the day and thinking, oh, can we change the telehealth?
I feel it's because I feel like it's less common thing to go in person.
And it takes a lot of steps to start.
And just putting here out there is scary and that's normal.
But it's very beneficial long term.
And remember, personal growth is like a journey.
It takes time and it's not like one therapy session and it will fix everything.
Stick with it.
I know it's uncomfortable right now, but you'll get there.
So yeah, thank you so much for our guests joining us today.
It's such a lovely chat.
And I love we should have more guests.
Thanks for having me, guys.
And yeah, you should have more guests.
I'm getting tired of hearing you guys.
No, honestly, I'm tired of listening to us and editing other people's voices is nice.
So honestly, you should come again for another episode.
Maybe we can talk about something else that's as uncomfortable as today's topic.
Look at you making progress.
Right?
And this is the end of our episode today.
We talk a bit about emotional avoidance in different kinds of relationships.
And if you want to know more about us, you can go to our Instagram.
Our Instagram handle is the why in your 20s.podcast.
We share different information or extra information on top of the current episode.
Yeah, definitely check it out.
And until next time, stay vulnerable.
Maybe give therapy a shot.
And we'll see you next week.
Bye.