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Welcome to our podcast, The Why in the 20s.

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My name is Viv and I'm Nat.

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We are two counselors in our mid-20s navigating our adulthood away from our home country,

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exploring the why questions we encounter relating to relationships, identities and uncertainties.

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So whether you're listening to our podcast while going for your walk or doing the chores,

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welcome on board and let the journey begin.

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Welcome back.

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Welcome to another episode of The Why in your 20s.

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Today we have a special guest.

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My housemate.

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One of my housemates.

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I'm so glad you say it's housemate, not like people that I live with.

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Is that a special title?

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No, because I think she don't feel home to begin with.

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So she would say, oh, people that I live with.

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Side note, we recently changed our WhatsApp group name.

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At first it was camp.

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Yeah.

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And then our other housemate said, is camp over yet?

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And then I changed it recently to camp is officially over.

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Aww.

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That's cute.

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We celebrate it.

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Aww.

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It was really special.

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So housemate slash good friend.

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Aww.

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I think that's very wholesome.

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That's wholesome.

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You can see me saying free aw.

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That means it's wholesome.

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Yeah, that's the bar that we're going to go with.

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That's my rating.

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Three aws.

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Aw aw aw.

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That's very Asian of you.

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I should really pay more attention while I'm recording because I do realize I have some

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certain sound that to the point I find it annoying as well.

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Wait, sorry.

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But when I say, mm, mm, aw.

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You realize the thing?

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You know, I've been starting to edit those out.

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Honestly, even I know as a listener, I can tell.

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And I caught myself doing that while I'm doing counseling sessions with client.

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Maybe I should pay a bit more attention to it.

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I think it's OK from time to time.

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It's just not every time when the client tells you something.

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True.

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Mm mm.

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Sorry, let's get back to our guests.

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We have so many tangents.

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We have a special guest today.

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Do you want to introduce yourself?

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So I'm Radhika.

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And I think we just said that I'm Viv's housemaid and good friend.

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I prefer that.

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Aw.

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I studied with Vivianette, the master's of counseling, and I'm working as an AOD counselor.

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Woohoo.

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AOD.

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AOD.

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I think the context is that Nat also works as an AOD counselor, so we just appreciate

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each other's support.

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Yeah, you guys appreciate each other's counselors.

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Yeah.

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Not like celebrating AOD.

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Yeah.

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Just I'm glad more people in the AOD field.

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I'm sure you guys are doing great work.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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What's that inhale?

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If she was thinking, should I take the thing?

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Of course.

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Of course, you should.

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I'm sure you guys are doing good work.

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I hope so.

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It's a frustrating job.

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It is.

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It is.

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Especially in certain situations.

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But anyway.

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Yeah.

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We'll jump straight into the topic today.

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What are we talking today?

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Maybe we can just go through like a brief definition of what it is first, because some

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of us may not be very familiar with the concept.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So we're going to talk about the concept of AOD.

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So I'm going to talk about AOD.

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So I'm going to talk about AOD.

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So I'm going to talk about AOD.

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So I'm going to talk about AOD.

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So I'm going to talk about AOD.

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So I'm going to talk about AOD.

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So I'm going to talk about AOD.

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I think a lot of time you don't even realize that you're doing it.

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Exactly.

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Yeah, which is why I disagree with the definition.

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I think it's a tendency to do so.

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It's just, do we know that we do that?

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Sometimes.

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Sometimes.

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But I would say most of the time you don't.

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Yeah.

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It's just that when you dive deeper and you actually reflect on your behavior, actions,

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then you realize, hmm, maybe that's what I'm doing.

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Yeah.

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And you get better at recognizing that you are doing that.

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You got an example?

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Why don't we let the guests answer first?

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That's emotional.

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Yeah, what's an emotional avoidance right there?

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Why don't you reflect on that moment again?

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I would say that's not emotional avoidance.

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It's just avoidance.

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Oh, that's behavioral avoidance.

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It's just avoidance in general.

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Honestly, I think we've established that I'm avoided all the way, right?

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Yeah.

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We'll all share at some time anyway.

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I know, I know.

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I'm just avoiding a bit.

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Yeah, you want to get comfortable with it.

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Yes, exactly.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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What was the question again?

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Is there an example where you kind of realize that, oh, this is an emotional avoidance behavior

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and then you kind of get more awareness over time?

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I think, well, our friends are going to hate this, but studying in this course for sure

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has been a real mirror towards reflection about emotional avoidance and specifically

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having friends who are in touch with their emotions and they constantly ask you questions

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about how you're feeling leads you to first avoid them, then maybe reflect about them

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a little bit and then continue to avoid but with the self-awareness.

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Yes.

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I completely agree, especially with the part where friends are very in touch with their

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feelings and I hate it.

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Yeah.

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Nan, do you disagree with that?

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I disagree.

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Disagree that you should hate your friend up emotionally.

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Oh no, I'm not.

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Okay, I know what I said.

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I think I'm like, I know I actually hate them.

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It's just a bit annoyed at times because I am an avoidant person, right?

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So I want to continue to avoid.

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Yeah.

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Friends that I made in this course especially, they're very in touch with their emotions.

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Yeah.

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It's very confrontational to have friends like that because it forces the emotionally

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avoidant person to reflect and that is not fun.

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I think I'm the opposite.

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You're the emotional friend, should I say?

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Yeah, I think I'm like always confronting my emotion as well and every time I really

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enjoy those like deep, deep conversation, I dig deep into my emotion.

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I rip them off too, you know.

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That sounds like a ghastly process and I do not enjoy it.

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I would want to know why I feel miserable at that time and I would just look for the

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answer.

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But sometimes I do avoid as well like certain situations.

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Sorry, have you always been in touch with your emotions?

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I think it's when I moved to Australia because I have like quite a hard time mentally in

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high school and I think that awareness as you said is very important because when you

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don't have that awareness, you feel miserable for no reasons.

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So after the experience when I came to Australia and of course I started studying psychology,

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you know a bit more about mental health and all that stuff.

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As you get more awareness around mental health and I think at some point I'm more addicted

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to it now.

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I love it.

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I love going into emotions and exploring on my own.

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Right.

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So you want to do that by yourself.

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I feel safer if you're doing it on your own but then if you're sharing with people, that's

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another thing.

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There's a different level of vulnerability involved.

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Because you don't know if that person, what kind of response they will give it to you.

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Would that be too much for them?

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Would that be traumatizing to them?

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You never know.

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Of course when you share, you kind of expect certain reaction or like answers or responses.

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But what if the person didn't give that to you?

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Then you'd be like, oh, maybe I should just keep it to myself.

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Would you say that means that you're emotionally in touch with your feelings when you're by

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yourself but to your friends you're still emotionally avoidant?

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No, I think to most of my friends, this.

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You've been nodding your head.

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The person is like, no, she's absolutely not.

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No, I'm like an open book when I'm with friends.

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It's very dangerous because when I first met new people, I can open it very quickly.

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It's a good thing but it can be a dangerous thing as well.

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But I think to certain people, I'm more giving to myself.

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For example, maybe my parents.

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Yeah.

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Let's...

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Let's pick up silence.

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But I think there's definitely a difference between friends and family.

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Yeah.

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And also the topic at hand as well.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Do you feel the same way?

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100%.

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I think even with friends, like which friend you're speaking to, what aspect of their life

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or when you met them or what context you know them from.

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Every relationship, I think, has actually a different kind of experience of how you share

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emotions and what kind of emotions you would share with them.

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But is there a particular reason why you feel like you're more avoidant emotionally?

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I think it feels safer, like you said.

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I thought the dangerous word was a bit much, but actually it's not.

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It feels a lot safer to be emotionally avoidant.

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And I think personally, I've not been someone who struggles with, for example, mental health a lot.

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I am more on Viv's side where it's easier to just kind of not care or like take life as it comes.

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And a big part of that is emotional avoidance.

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When you don't know what you're experiencing or like when you don't sit and reflect on your emotions,

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it's easy to kind of get over, say, embarrassing moments in life or get over things that did not make you feel good

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because you're not thinking about them.

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So life has made me this way.

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Maybe too many embarrassing moments in life has made me this way.

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You just have to not care, or else you'll be so consumed with all those mistakes.

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Yeah, but what about you?

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Yeah, you're being a bit quiet.

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No, I'm just enjoying the conversation.

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I'm soaking in all the knowledge, all the insights of your life.

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Well, we appreciate you being a good listener, but I think it's time to put you on the mic.

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Sorry, what's the question?

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Do you feel like you're emotionally avoidant in all of your relationships or just some?

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I couldn't even finish the question because I'm out of context.

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We did an online questionnaire thing yesterday, and I can attach it on the reference,

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but it's like a spectrum for you answering the question and see whether you are more avoidant

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or anxious type of attachment in different kinds of relationships.

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It could be family, friends, partner, and it's just in general strangers.

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And for Viv, is it okay if I share?

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She's avoidance all the way, like all clustered in the avoidance box.

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Which honestly, I expected it.

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I expected it too.

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Of?

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Yeah.

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From knowing you for the past one and a half year and living with you for the last six months,

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I can attest to that.

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Yeah, no, I do avoid everything, not just emotions, but everything.

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I just avoid it.

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It is dangerous to the fact that I feel like I don't want to have those emotions.

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And just numb myself.

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And that's very safe because if you don't feel anything, then you won't feel the negative emotions as well.

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But you might suddenly have an emotion pop up that is out of your control.

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And you wonder, oh, why I have this emotion?

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I don't think I have that too much.

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And honestly, anything that I experienced that it's really quote unquote overwhelming,

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I would consider as, okay, it is out of my control.

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Just let it go.

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Right.

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So you're able to avoid that as well?

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Yeah, it takes skills and it takes practice as well.

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I'm not encouraging people to do that, but that's how I live my life.

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And I get very trained with that.

257
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,040
So I'm very skilled and just let it go.

258
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,040
And then you just avoid it.

259
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,040
And that there is a counselor talking about emotions.

260
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,040
Well, to be fair, I'm not a counselor.

261
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,040
You hold a master's degree.

262
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,040
I'm sorry, but that makes you a professional.

263
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,040
To be a sidetrack, honestly, a lot of times when I talk to clients about certain things,

264
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,040
I'm like, oh, I did not do that as well.

265
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:47,040
Sometimes when we ask clients to say, do it be a self-care, like simple thing, look after yourself.

266
00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,040
No, I did not look after myself at all.

267
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,040
I feel the best to feel that way as well.

268
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,040
Oh yeah, 100%.

269
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:59,040
I talk to my clients about sleep hygiene all the time and I have the worst sleep hygiene in the entire world.

270
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:04,040
It's true, but we have the knowledge that doesn't mean we need to practice the skills.

271
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,040
We should.

272
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,040
It's harder to practice it ourselves.

273
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,040
That does help us acknowledge how hard it is, though.

274
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:16,040
If those things came easier to us, then we wouldn't be able to, I guess, have that kind of empathy for their struggle.

275
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,040
At least that's how I rationalize it.

276
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,040
No, I think that is true, though.

277
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,040
We recognize how difficult it is for them.

278
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,040
We can really connect with them on that level.

279
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,040
Oh, absolutely.

280
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:34,040
But anyway, do you feel like it is because sharing emotions is scary and being vulnerable is scary?

281
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:39,040
That's the reason why you're emotional avoidance or that's other reasons?

282
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,040
I think that is a large part of it.

283
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,040
And I do agree with Viv in the sense that numbing is easy.

284
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,040
It does take a lot of skill and practice.

285
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:55,040
So at this point in my life, yes, I am emotionally avoidant because it is scary to be in any other way or exist in any other way.

286
00:13:55,040 --> 00:14:02,040
But I'm not too sure still like if that's right now have the self-awareness to vocalize this.

287
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:08,040
But I've probably been this way my entire life and I don't think emotions being scary was the reason.

288
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,040
It could be different reasons at different points in my life.

289
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,040
And that leads to my counselor talk.

290
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,040
Yes.

291
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,040
Do your parents avoid emotions as well?

292
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,040
Or do you guys openly talk about emotions at home?

293
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:32,040
I think I don't want to generalize to all Asians or South Asians, but it's a little bit cultural to not talk about your emotions all the time or at least talk about all the emotions.

294
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:40,040
So we would talk about say if I had a really big emotional reaction or an anger outburst, maybe my parents would talk to me about it.

295
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,040
But that's not necessarily a conversation we would have.

296
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,040
I remember one thing, though, like you would cry as a child for sure.

297
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,040
You can never be not cry as a child.

298
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:59,040
But my dad's philosophy was when someone is crying, you should leave them alone and not ask them too many questions because that would make them cry more.

299
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:04,040
So my mom wanted to approach and she wanted to be like, tell me what's wrong and let me fix it.

300
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,040
But my dad was of the opinion that when someone's crying, you should let them cry it out.

301
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,040
If they need support, they will tell you what's wrong.

302
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:17,040
But if you keep poking them while they're crying, it will just lead to more tears and it won't lead to anyway.

303
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,040
And obviously, I had both spectrums exist in my life, but this is just about crying.

304
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,040
So I think I prefer my dad's style.

305
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,040
I wonder about emotional avoidance.

306
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:33,040
Yeah, yeah. So I guess in that way, it's always been part of my life.

307
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,040
I've been avoided to a certain level.

308
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:40,040
If I want to cry, even as a child, I would rather do it by myself than in front of other people.

309
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,040
I guess there is some level of like my parental influence.

310
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,040
But I still chose to be one way than the other.

311
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,040
But definitely, we don't have the vocabulary of emotions.

312
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,040
We don't say, hey, did that make you feel embarrassed?

313
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:55,040
What can we do about it?

314
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,040
Even now, I feel that's definitely not a part of the conversations.

315
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,040
You share happy emotions, but not so many of the negative ones, I guess.

316
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,040
Yeah, is it the same for you?

317
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,040
Yeah, we're directing the question to Viv.

318
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,040
I was going to continue the conversation.

319
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,040
Okay, okay.

320
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,040
You can.

321
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,040
No, I was just wondering if you see a person crying, would you approach them?

322
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,040
Or would you be asking questions like what happened and all that?

323
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,040
I think with the counseling training, it would be a very different response.

324
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,040
I would probably sit with them, let them cry, but I wouldn't walk away.

325
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,040
I would still sit with them, maybe check in.

326
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,040
Do you want me to stay?

327
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,040
Do you want a glass of water?

328
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,040
But I wouldn't necessarily ask what's going on unless they want to talk to me about it.

329
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,040
Once the crying has subsided, that's when I would ask what's going on.

330
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,040
But that again comes with training from being a counselor.

331
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,040
I don't think I would have had the same response four or five years ago.

332
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,040
I would have avoided.

333
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:54,040
I would have tried to walk away or not feel comfortable sitting with them there.

334
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,040
Great response, honestly.

335
00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,040
I think it's a combination of both your parent, not just completely avoiding them,

336
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,040
but also caring for them in a different way as well.

337
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,040
What would you guys do if you saw someone crying?

338
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,040
No, I think that's a great answer.

339
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,040
I think I would definitely do the same, just sitting there.

340
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,040
It depends if they have someone else already though.

341
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,040
If they already do, I would not approach at all.

342
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:20,040
It's interesting if I swap the role of if I'm the one that's crying.

343
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,040
I wouldn't want people to be around me, but if I saw people crying,

344
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:29,040
I would go there and ask, do you want me to be here or is there something I can help?

345
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:34,040
But I don't know, just from a personal experience, if I'm crying, I want to be alone.

346
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,040
And if the person clearly finds a place that is out of all the people there,

347
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,040
obviously they want to be alone.

348
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,040
But yeah, I agree with you.

349
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:47,040
If I put myself in those shoes, I would not want another person to be with me as well.

350
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,040
You know what's funny? Me too.

351
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:55,040
I would not like anyone to see me cry.

352
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,040
If I want to cry, I'm finding that corner in that building or that park

353
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,040
or whatever you want me to find, and I want to cry by myself.

354
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,040
Because I actually have a reason. I feel like I don't cry.

355
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,040
Okay, no, I was going to say I don't cry a lot, but I do cry a lot.

356
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,040
But more like if I let myself cry, I would just go all out.

357
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:18,040
But then if there's someone there, you feel like you're not allowed to do so,

358
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,040
especially when the other person gives you tissue.

359
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,040
It feels like it's an indication for you to stop crying.

360
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,040
So I would prefer not having someone there.

361
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,040
Even if I see someone else crying, I would not give them tissue

362
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,040
because I want them to allow themselves to feel whatever they're feeling.

363
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,040
That's really nice.

364
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,040
But I don't associate tissue things.

365
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:42,040
I think what I've learned from client workers, if the person looks for a tissue, I would offer it.

366
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,040
Oh, yeah.

367
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,040
But I wouldn't offer it myself, though.

368
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,040
But yeah, it would be different in a non-counseling setting, for sure.

369
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,040
Other than the sidetrack, have you always been emotionally avoided?

370
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:55,040
I think so.

371
00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:01,040
I think I've seen instances where people get angry and it doesn't really help with the situation.

372
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:07,040
And a lot of people in my life, I would say the only emotion is either angry or just neutral.

373
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,040
So I associate emotions with just anger.

374
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,040
So I feel like anger doesn't really help with the situation.

375
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,040
The circumstances are still there.

376
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,040
The situation is still there.

377
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:20,040
It just taught me to don't need to feel angry, just rationalize, find a solution for it,

378
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,040
because angry doesn't help you.

379
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:28,040
So you feel like it's useless to share emotion anyway, so might as well just keep it over voted?

380
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,040
Not share per se, but more expressing it.

381
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:38,040
It doesn't have to be sharing with another person, but just expressing it like me hitting the table if I'm angry.

382
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,040
I wouldn't do that because expressing it doesn't help.

383
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,040
So I have to find the solution for it.

384
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,040
So you find the bandaid, but you hurt yourself instead of crying about it?

385
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,040
Well, I mean, that's not the goal of it.

386
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,040
But it really depends on the situation.

387
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,040
If the situation is a very small thing, it's okay.

388
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,040
Even if you put a bandaid, it will heal itself.

389
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:02,040
But if it's for something bigger, then definitely emotional avoidance is not healthy at all.

390
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,040
The wound will still be there. It won't be healed.

391
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,040
Interesting.

392
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,040
No, but I'm actually the opposite.

393
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:13,040
I have experience where, so I say my parents, my mom is more like the angry,

394
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,040
but then she won't say the reason, that type of person.

395
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:22,040
Whereas I know when my dad is mad, there will be a reason that he will explicitly say out.

396
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,040
So I got a bit of both for different parents.

397
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,040
And I think you both are like emotional avoidance.

398
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,040
But for me, I'm like the anxious type.

399
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,040
I don't avoid it, but I'm more anxious.

400
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,040
I'm always like guessing.

401
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:40,040
So I think I got that from my mom when she's mad, but she didn't really tell the reason why.

402
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:45,040
So me growing up, I'm always guessing, oh, what is she mad about?

403
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,040
Or is there something I did wrong?

404
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,040
And obviously it's always something that I, me or my sister did it wrong.

405
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,040
For example, we didn't clean our room or we left the dishes and then packed away.

406
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,040
There's a million reasons, you know, as a child.

407
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:03,040
So I always grew up anxious guessing what people's emotions and the reason behind.

408
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:09,040
So I never avoid it, but I'm always anxious approaching emotions, if that makes sense.

409
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,040
That does make a lot of sense.

410
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:17,040
So it's interesting when you said when someone expressed their emotion and you find that unhelpful.

411
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,040
That's why you kind of not expressing it.

412
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,040
For me, it's the opposite.

413
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:28,040
I think it's got to do with personal predisposition, like because your sister or like your sister would have had a different response,

414
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,040
maybe to the same expression of emotions.

415
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,040
So it also got to do with the individual, how they interpret.

416
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:40,040
A follow up question to that story was why do you think you took on your mother's emotions and not your dad's?

417
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,040
I think because I'm closer to my mum.

418
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,040
Dad is always the father figure.

419
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,040
You only go to them when big things happen.

420
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:52,040
But whereas my mum, she's more following up with my schoolwork and all other stuff,

421
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,040
like all other extracurriculum activities, cooking, housework, basically everything.

422
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,040
So I feel like I'm more in contact with my mum.

423
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,040
Yeah.

424
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:06,040
I think it's 50-50, you might end up following what your dad did or following what your mum did.

425
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,040
I think that's just how you pick it up.

426
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,040
Yeah.

427
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,040
I think it also depends on what kind of reactions you get from your friends growing up.

428
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:20,040
If you've expressed certain emotions, have you gotten an appropriate response or have you been dismissed?

429
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:25,040
That would also affect your attachment style as to would you repeat that expression of emotions or not.

430
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,040
Your school friendships become really important in your life growing up.

431
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:34,040
So you're spending a lot more time with your school friends as opposed to your parents at that point.

432
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,040
And you also value those friendships more.

433
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,040
And at the end of the day, especially for high school students, I feel you end,

434
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:46,040
because you're going through those developing ages, you're going through a lot of crisis situations,

435
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,040
and you end up expressing emotions in crisis.

436
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:54,040
So what kind of reactions are appropriate at your high school and what are not

437
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,040
would definitely define what you learn about attachment.

438
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,040
Would you share those crisis situations and those emotions related to it to your friends?

439
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,040
If I'm in the crisis with them, maybe.

440
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,040
What about if you're in the crisis alone?

441
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:17,040
I think I wouldn't personally, but it's also because I did not have, you know,

442
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,040
I don't know if you guys had, but I never had a best friend growing up.

443
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,040
And so I never had that kind of intense emotional connection with anyone.

444
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,040
So I think that's also part of the reason, at least from what I've observed,

445
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:33,040
when people do have a very, very close friend that they share all of their emotions with,

446
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,040
they end up sharing the crisis as well.

447
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,040
But because I didn't have that, I had a lot of great friends,

448
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,040
but I did not have that one person that I was turning to for all of the problems in my life.

449
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,040
This is a very personal observation. It could possibly be not true for others.

450
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,040
So do you share certain topics to a certain friend?

451
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,040
Is that how you dealt with your situations?

452
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,040
Yes, 100%. I think, for example, if it was a crisis with studying,

453
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,040
I would share it with one particular friend.

454
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:06,040
If it was a crisis with a friendship group or like maybe any co-curricular activity,

455
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,040
I would share it with a friend that was involved in that activity with me then.

456
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,040
So if they have the context, it's easier to share it with them.

457
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,040
So it depends on the context. It doesn't really depend on the level of trust.

458
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:25,040
I mean, also that, usually it's that context that plays a bit more factor into it.

459
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:31,040
I think growing up, yes, because it's also that idea of if you went through the crisis with them,

460
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,040
they already have the context, you can't really avoid it.

461
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,040
It's happening in the moment.

462
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,040
So you can't really avoid it.

463
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,040
That's when you start to end up with...

464
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,040
So that's not by choice.

465
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,040
That's not by choice. Yeah, that's not by choice.

466
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,040
I guess it's by choice where you could like completely run away.

467
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:54,040
There's a level of choice involved in all situations, but I would say 70-30.

468
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,040
30% choice, 70% situation.

469
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,040
It's a random number.

470
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,040
Yeah, we got it.

471
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,040
But yeah, what about you guys though?

472
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,040
It's very interesting.

473
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,040
Back then, I didn't feel like it was...

474
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:13,040
I wasn't aware that it was a strategy for me to avoid emotions, but now reflecting back, I think it was.

475
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,040
Same with you, I did not have like a quote-unquote best friend.

476
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,040
I don't believe in it. Agreed.

477
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,040
But maybe it's the emotional avoidance part is talking.

478
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,040
Yes, I don't believe it. So I have a lot of different close friends.

479
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:32,040
I actively shared only certain parts in my life with different people and the emotions related to it.

480
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,040
At that time, I was like, I rationalized myself saying, yeah, of course I do that.

481
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,040
That's how I prevent myself from hurting.

482
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:45,040
Yeah. I was actually like, that's how I thought when I was growing up, but I didn't know it was emotional avoidance.

483
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,040
I didn't know it was a strategy for me to protect myself honestly. It was just safer.

484
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,040
I completely agree and I was the same.

485
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,040
Really? Like I completely disagree?

486
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:05,040
I think if one person, like your best friend, whatever, knows everything about you, think about it. It's scary.

487
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,040
You're scared that they will use that to go against you?

488
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:13,040
Not go against you, but if that relationship breaks down, it would hurt so much.

489
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,040
It could be a completely different matter.

490
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:21,040
It could be something not related to any of the like quote unquote secrets that you share with one another.

491
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,040
It could be something else completely.

492
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:32,040
Or that person may not be available anymore because they are dealing with a situation themselves like at home or they could be moving across the world.

493
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,040
It could be something else completely, but you'd lose that pillar.

494
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:43,040
And can I ask a question? Is it because you're studying in an international school, you know that your friends come and go?

495
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,040
So that's the way you protect yourself?

496
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:51,040
I know in the previous I said yes, and definitely that's part of the reason.

497
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,040
Because we're doing emotional avoidance topic, that's why I'm not going to avoid it.

498
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,040
But no, that's not the main reason. It's really to protect myself.

499
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:08,040
I feel like I've seen too many cases that happens where either betrayal or it could be something else like I said.

500
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:15,040
That where you really cannot count on another person. No one is actually that accountable in life.

501
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,040
Maybe your intention wasn't that, but you know they're humans and they make mistakes.

502
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:26,040
To avoid being hurt and going through the process of, oh, should I forgive this person?

503
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,040
I'd rather not go through that process.

504
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:35,040
No, I completely agree. And I hate that I agree this much, but I go to the story very often actually.

505
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:41,040
This is a specific example as well. This was in a boarding college.

506
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:47,040
I was living with everyone else and there was an incident that happened where people were mean to each other.

507
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:53,040
And I heard the same incident narrated by four different people with four completely different perspectives.

508
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,040
That's the other thing. Everyone has their own point of view and someone always gets hurt.

509
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,040
I'd rather not have a point of view.

510
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,040
Oh, I agree.

511
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,040
I'd rather not have a point of view.

512
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,040
I'm struggling here.

513
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,040
We're too strong. We're too avoidant.

514
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,040
And it's just so much safer to not have that perspective, to not have a point of view.

515
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:21,040
And that way you're not hurting other people, you're not hurting yourself, and you just go to the next situation.

516
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,040
But what are you trying to get out of it?

517
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:31,040
For example, if you choose to share your emotion, you choose to be emotionally vulnerable, what are you looking for? A solution?

518
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,040
I don't do that.

519
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,040
You don't do that.

520
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,040
You have to do it.

521
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,040
What are you looking for?

522
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:43,040
I'm looking for reassurance. I'm looking for a solution. I'm looking for a different perspective.

523
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,040
Because sometimes when I'm too emotional, my thoughts can be messy.

524
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,040
Getting a fresh eye can be helpful to that situation.

525
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,040
I think that's why when you feel your emotions, you get emotional.

526
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,040
And for me, it's like I numb it down so I don't get emotional.

527
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,040
My mind is very logical so I can think of solutions. I can think of new perspectives.

528
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,040
I can do all that, what you just said, reassure myself as well by myself.

529
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:16,040
And I know it's not probably the most efficient way, most effective way, but it has gotten me through 25 years of my life, 26 years of my life.

530
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,040
That's how I developed that.

531
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,040
I'm not saying it's healthy, definitely not.

532
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,040
No part of this is healthy. Let's emphasize that.

533
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,040
But that's a perspective.

534
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,040
But I believe that's our best friend. I suppose I disagree.

535
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,040
With everything we've discussed.

536
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,040
With everything, every last 10 minutes, Nat completely disagrees.

537
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:39,040
I'm glad because we have different perspectives and want to learn more about your perspective as well.

538
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:47,040
I absolutely agree when you become too vulnerable to a person and when that person is gone, it hurts so much.

539
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:53,040
It happened. But for me, I still want to believe in it. I still want to believe that's the best friend that you can.

540
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,040
It's hard to... I know I'm not the best people to judge whether the person is good or bad.

541
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,040
I'm always the opposite. If the person is bad, I always thought they are amazing.

542
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,040
I don't know. I just am terrible at judging.

543
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:08,040
That's so sad.

544
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,040
Are you saying you're a terrible judge of character?

545
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,040
Yeah, I'm terrible at it. I'm always wrong.

546
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,040
So you always go against your instincts? That's the solution?

547
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,040
No. I still follow my instincts.

548
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,040
What kind of logic is that?

549
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,040
See, this is an emotional person talking.

550
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,040
I do have friends. I do have best friends back in Hong Kong.

551
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,040
Even though we don't talk as much now, I still 100% trust them.

552
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,040
I feel like there's no way that they will betray me because we have known each other for so long.

553
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:45,040
The only way that they will be gone in my life is if we just slowly fade out the relationship.

554
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,040
I think that's the only reason why we lost touch.

555
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:55,040
I've lost friends that I've been so vulnerable to them and for some reason they're gone in my life.

556
00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:03,040
But they still give me insights and they still give me valuable solution or reassurance or support around those times.

557
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:08,040
And I truly value that. So I won't because of that experience that I'm okay.

558
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,040
I don't trust anyone anymore, even though I know it will happen again.

559
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:18,040
But I think because that experience feels so good, I want to keep that and hope that it will happen again.

560
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,040
Wow, that's beautiful, that's genuinely beautiful.

561
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:27,040
I'm glad you had such special experiences that you want to keep it going even though it hurts.

562
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,040
Now that's courage. That is courage.

563
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,040
That is courage. That is really courage.

564
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,040
I do not have that courage, honestly.

565
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,040
I am not courageous at all.

566
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,040
I think that takes a lot of different perspective as well and a lot of factor.

567
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,040
Whether the bad experience that you had, quote unquote bad, I don't feel it's bad.

568
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,040
Is the person supportive as well or is it a bad ending?

569
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:56,040
I think more than the bad ending as well, it goes back to attachment styles as well in the sense that what you take from that experience.

570
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:04,040
So do you have a positive perspective on even a relationship ending badly or do you have a negative expectation from it going on?

571
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,040
So it definitely comes down to the individual because two people could have the exact same experience,

572
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,040
but it could affect their future relationships very differently.

573
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,040
There's no general rule for that.

574
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,040
But moving one more step, more vulnerable now.

575
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:25,040
If you're in a romantic relationship, do you want to be emotionally vulnerable even though you're more emotional avoidance?

576
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,040
Do we want to?

577
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,040
Want to.

578
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,040
Do you want to and will you?

579
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:35,040
That's a great question.

580
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,040
Want to and will you?

581
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,040
Do I have to answer first?

582
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,040
I can answer first.

583
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:46,040
Want to? Definitely in the future.

584
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,040
Far into the future.

585
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,040
Maybe, you never know, but I think I would want to definitely.

586
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,040
But will I is a different question.

587
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,040
I would want to be willing to.

588
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:03,040
It's very hard to do so and I think it takes time to actually open up and trust a person.

589
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:08,040
Honestly, for me, I don't think there's a difference between friendship and a partner.

590
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,040
The way I open up to the foundation definitely have to be friends.

591
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,040
And then if I trust them enough to be a friend, then I'll go further in, open up even more.

592
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,040
And I would say even for friends, I'm not willing to.

593
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,040
That's true.

594
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:29,040
I think rather than that, it takes me so long to open up.

595
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,040
It took me quite a while to open up.

596
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,040
And even till now, I wouldn't open up about everything.

597
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,040
Definitely not.

598
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,040
Maybe like 10% of my life.

599
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,040
Really? That's a lot.

600
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,040
That's not what I was expecting.

601
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,040
No, honestly, I think it's less than 10%.

602
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:54,040
But then it's a small amount of stuff that I'm willing to share at this moment.

603
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,040
And it's frustrating.

604
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,040
For you?

605
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,040
Yeah.

606
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,040
Why so?

607
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,040
Because the thing is I want to, but I'm not able to.

608
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,040
I'm not able to have that courage to do so.

609
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:10,040
I apologize for the counselor-like question, but are you actively trying to change that?

610
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,040
Work towards your want?

611
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,040
I actually think I am.

612
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,040
Oh.

613
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,040
No, seriously, I think I am.

614
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,040
Little steps.

615
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,040
Very small steps.

616
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,040
Very small steps.

617
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,040
And active steps as well.

618
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,040
I would say it's still quite challenging to do so.

619
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,040
And the feedback, I mean, it's not negative.

620
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,040
It's either neutral or positive.

621
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,040
But yeah, what's the motivation of opening up?

622
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,040
To get more perspective? To get reassurance?

623
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,040
One, I don't need the reassurance.

624
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,040
Perspective, some people can give you new perspective.

625
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,040
But I feel like that's not a good enough reason to open up.

626
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:53,040
I think the only reason right now I can find is more about you want to be closer to another person.

627
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:58,040
And I don't want to, like right now, sometimes my motivation is out of guilt.

628
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,040
I don't want it's because of guilt.

629
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,040
I want mainly because I want to be closer with another person.

630
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,040
Aww.

631
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,040
So every time I share with you guys, I want to be closer to you guys.

632
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,040
Aww.

633
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,040
And it's not out of guilt?

634
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,040
I admit sometimes it's out of guilt.

635
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,040
For example, like sharing honestly anything.

636
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,040
It doesn't have to be emotions.

637
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,040
Yeah.

638
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,040
It's like anything.

639
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,040
It's like, for example, I'm getting a job.

640
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,040
I feel bad because I live with Raz and like, oh, she's going to know anyways.

641
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,040
So I have to tell her.

642
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,040
And then that because, oh, I told Raz already, then I should tell you too.

643
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,040
And that's how the cycle continued.

644
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,040
Yeah, exactly.

645
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:39,040
So that's really the way I think when I share with another person.

646
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,040
That's the reason what I'm looking for, because I'm like, if you don't need a reassurance,

647
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,040
if you don't need different perspective, why do you want to share?

648
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,040
I think it's just have a closer relationship.

649
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:55,040
And I think that's the main thing for friendship, for partner, for anything.

650
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,040
Emotion is such a big part.

651
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,040
Yeah.

652
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,040
What about Raz?

653
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,040
I think, no, I agree with you to a certain extent where opening up to friends is hard enough.

654
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,040
So with romantic partners, it would be harder.

655
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,040
And it has to be, oh, sorry.

656
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,040
You said that it's actually equal, right?

657
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,040
For friends and romantic partners.

658
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:18,040
I disagree with that a little bit in the sense that I do think romantic partners is a level up

659
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,040
because you just the sheer amount of time you spend with them.

660
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,040
And with friendships is a lot easier.

661
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,040
Again, it goes back to, you know, how much can they hurt you?

662
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:32,040
Not how much another person can hurt you, but it's more like how much you would lose without that connection,

663
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,040
without that kind of if they're not there in your life anymore,

664
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,040
how much of their unavailability would affect you.

665
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:44,040
And with friendships, you spend a lot of time with other people, but it's still limited.

666
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,040
But with romantic partners, just the ratio of time you spend with them increases a lot.

667
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:54,040
So that's why it feels more vulnerable to share in a relationship like that as opposed to a friendship.

668
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:55,040
What about you, Nat?

669
00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:02,040
I think we need another episode around anxious type of action.

670
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,040
Without rest, you mean? Like find someone else that is...

671
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:15,040
No, sorry, not just without you, but more like finding someone else that's more anxious so that you can gang up.

672
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,040
I think that's what she means.

673
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,040
No, that's good though. I want to hear your perspective.

674
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,040
Yeah, because I feel like my experience is so different.

675
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:27,040
If I go on a first date, I can already open book and share everything if the person willing to listen.

676
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:32,040
But what's going through my mind is, oh, am I sharing too much that I'm overwhelming that person?

677
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,040
Would it be too much to that person that they ran away?

678
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:42,040
Or will it be me sharing my emotion makes them feel like we're very close, but we're not?

679
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:48,040
Like just a lot of questions, a lot of anxiety around how the person will react as well.

680
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:55,040
Because I have experience of me sharing fully myself to a person and end up making them feel like,

681
00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:01,040
oh, we are kind of close. And I'm like, oh, I'm not ready to be close actually in other aspects.

682
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:07,040
I'm just naturally emotional, vulnerable and open book in a dangerous way.

683
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:14,040
I also have experience where I share emotions and then it's a bit too much that they don't know how to response.

684
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:20,040
And they just, they don't react. They just, they won't be like scared and sit there and ran away immediately.

685
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,040
But more like you can see them slowly fading out or like drifting out of your life.

686
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:30,040
So I think those tiny experience do intensify the anxious around.

687
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:36,040
Next time I share with new people, more than happy to share all about my life.

688
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:43,040
I can't write a book and share to everyone in the world, but how they think about me, I think that's what I'm anxious about.

689
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,040
So sometimes I'm hesitant to share.

690
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:50,040
I would say I'm hesitant to share certain topics with my parents because I don't know how they will react as well.

691
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:55,040
Or maybe I've shared and their reaction doesn't met what I'm expecting.

692
00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,040
That's just one example, not just targeting my parents, but a lot of other relationship happens as well.

693
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:09,040
So of course, in a romantic relationship, I would want to be emotional, vulnerable to my partner, but they have to be able to be with me as well.

694
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,040
I think that's my concern.

695
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,040
That they are able to respond to your vulnerability.

696
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,040
Yes, because you know me, I ramble a lot.

697
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,040
I go deep, deep, deep, 100 meters down the ocean.

698
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,040
And sometimes you don't even know where I'm going.

699
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:31,040
I do think that that's a very fair asking of a romantic partner to be able to understand your emotions, hold your emotions.

700
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:40,040
I would imagine that if they're not able to offer that, then it's probably not a good match because emotional vulnerability does come up.

701
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,040
And that's what helps cement romantic relationships as well.

702
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,040
To a large extent.

703
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,040
Absolutely.

704
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,040
So I think anxious or avoidant, that's their pros and cons, I guess.

705
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,040
Pros and cons.

706
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,040
You were only in cons.

707
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:59,040
I mean, our emotional safety is a pro.

708
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,040
If you don't want to be too overwhelmed.

709
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:08,040
No, but even for me, like me being an open book is not the healthiest way as well.

710
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,040
Because you never know.

711
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:14,040
But like you said, you know, you learn from your experiences, those are still valuable experiences.

712
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,040
So you wouldn't know what kind of response you can get until you actually express yourself.

713
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,040
Actually, I feel like that is kind of healthy, even though you've been hurt, but you don't numb yourself.

714
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,040
You still have that courage to try and try and try again.

715
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:33,040
I think this numbing makes me feel more miserable because you're like, when can I get the closure?

716
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,040
That's because you want to know what you're experiencing, right?

717
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,040
That's why you want the closure.

718
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:43,040
If you experience your emotion, the closer you can get to an end for that quote unquote negative experience.

719
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,040
But then you numb it, it's still there.

720
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,040
And what if someone or one day something triggered or it got ripped off?

721
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,040
Then it's like, boom.

722
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,040
That's another question.

723
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,040
Like to me, that's more scary.

724
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,040
I would say yes, definitely.

725
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,040
So an emotional outburst that's more scary?

726
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,040
Like just because you're building up, it's like a volcano.

727
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:12,040
It's just building, building, building up, and then is it a major explosion or is it like a tiny explosion that they explode every few days?

728
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,040
I prefer the tiny explosion.

729
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,040
Have you experienced any of those big volcanoes?

730
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:25,040
Actually, I don't think so because I'm so skilled at avoiding it that it doesn't actually build up.

731
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:32,040
Like you said, because you view numbing as putting aside the emotions so that they're building up with the volcano.

732
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,040
But I feel numbing is more that you don't actually you don't even know what you're experiencing.

733
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,040
So what are you putting aside?

734
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,040
So I feel like I don't experience the emotion at all.

735
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,040
It's not like I'm actively avoiding feeling that.

736
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,040
It's just that I don't know what I experienced.

737
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,040
Yeah, definitely numbing is not just putting it aside.

738
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,040
It's just not feeling at all.

739
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,040
So you haven't even identified those emotions.

740
00:41:55,040 --> 00:42:00,040
But the thing is, it does still get triggered even if you don't know the emotions.

741
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:06,040
So it's not really building it up, but more like it just explodes completely.

742
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,040
And you just don't know when until that triggers kind of hits.

743
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,040
But the thing is, if you say that, it means it has not been triggered yet.

744
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,040
To a certain extent, that's good.

745
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,040
You still have time to...

746
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,040
I have more emotions to set aside and let them keep building up.

747
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,040
No, that was not where I was going.

748
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:32,040
There's more time for you to actively try to identify emotions when it comes.

749
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,040
I'll say we're taking a healthier perspective.

750
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,040
Of course, I'm such a healthy person.

751
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,040
I also think that outbursts can look very differently.

752
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,040
So one is an anger outburst.

753
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,040
The other is an emotional crying outburst.

754
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:50,040
But an outburst could also be just feeling lethargic for a couple of days,

755
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,040
tired for a couple of days.

756
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,040
I personally do think that could also be an emotional outburst.

757
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,040
It's just less visible.

758
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,040
So that outburst could look very differently for different people.

759
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,040
Do you feel like your outburst is more the...

760
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,040
The second kind, yeah.

761
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,040
I think so because now that I'm thinking about it,

762
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,040
my outburst would never look like anger and irritation.

763
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,040
It would be a more subtle form of emotional expression.

764
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,040
It would be fatigue.

765
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,040
It would be like extreme tiredness.

766
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,040
For me, it's the heavy breathing.

767
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,040
You feel like you need more oxygen to breathe,

768
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,040
like the tightness in your chest.

769
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,040
I think that's for mine.

770
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,040
If you're saying a more subtle explosion.

771
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,040
Do you know what your emotional outburst would look like?

772
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,040
I think for me, it just comes in different ways.

773
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,040
I think it's all of the above.

774
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,040
But most of the time, only I can identify it.

775
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,040
Other people can't really see it.

776
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,040
Even if it's anger or irritation,

777
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,040
other people can't really feel the difference.

778
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,040
Because I think for me, even in daily life,

779
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,040
I would pretend to be irritated,

780
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,040
pretend to be angry in a humour way.

781
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,040
So other people can't really see the difference

782
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,040
between me actually angry

783
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,040
and just in a humour way of being angry.

784
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,040
Okay.

785
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,040
I'm just reflecting on all my interactions with you.

786
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,040
All I'm thinking about is that

787
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,040
it takes a lot of energy to be that way.

788
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,040
Do you actually think, oh, I need to hide this anger?

789
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,040
Oh, no, it just comes naturally.

790
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,040
But it's aftermath that I realise it.

791
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,040
I will notice it very quickly.

792
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,040
I don't really control it.

793
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,040
Because I can't really control it.

794
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,040
I just let it be.

795
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,040
And one other thing, I don't talk about emotions

796
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,040
because they're counsellors.

797
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,040
And it's annoying. It's so annoying.

798
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,040
We've discussed this before.

799
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,040
Every statement that you have,

800
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,040
you know it will come with a question.

801
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,040
And I think it's because they're not really my counsellor.

802
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,040
They won't reflect. It's more about the questions.

803
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,040
Oh, so like we ask more questions

804
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,040
because we're not counselling you.

805
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,040
Yeah. But I mean, even counsellors,

806
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,040
they will still ask the same questions,

807
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,040
but I feel like they would phrase it in a way

808
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,040
that they reflect and not that straightforward.

809
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,040
But then as friends, it's more the fact that,

810
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,040
okay, you're just giving me questions.

811
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,040
You know what's interesting?

812
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:04,040
I like that.

813
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,040
For example, I'm sharing my emotions to Viv.

814
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,040
The more questions she asks,

815
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,040
I feel like, okay, I get more perspective.

816
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,040
Because when I share emotion, I'm looking for perspective.

817
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,040
I'm looking for reassurance.

818
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,040
So because you guys are counsellor,

819
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,040
when I share my experience,

820
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,040
I feel like you guys can relate to me a bit more.

821
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,040
That guides me to a better place.

822
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:28,040
I think that's why I prefer actually talking to counsellor friends as well.

823
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,040
I think then it comes down to just what's the motivation for sharing.

824
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,040
Because you're seeking a closer relationship,

825
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,040
so you wouldn't want more questions.

826
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,040
But for you, you're seeking a different perspective and reassurance,

827
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,040
so you would want more questions to be asked.

828
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,040
For Viv, it's like I share, I'm closer, that's it.

829
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,040
No, also listen.

830
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,040
Listen and reflect it back, right?

831
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,040
That's what you were saying.

832
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,040
Reflect it back that we understood what you're sharing.

833
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,040
And not just ask more questions about it.

834
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,040
No, it's annoying.

835
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,040
It's not because of the motivation, I feel like.

836
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,040
It's annoying because I have to think more.

837
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,040
And it's the emotional avoidance where I want to avoid it.

838
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,040
Yes, I want to share it, but I also want to avoid it.

839
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,040
And there's another question we ask, you might not be ready as well.

840
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,040
Well, most of the time I know the answers already.

841
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,040
It's just like, oh, I have to share even more.

842
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,040
Anyways.

843
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,040
I think this is such a good opportunity to know each other a bit more as well.

844
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,040
I also do think we're a bit on a spectrum.

845
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,040
I kind of want to set myself aside from Viv.

846
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,040
I think I'm less on the spectrum.

847
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,040
Okay.

848
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,040
Thank you.

849
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,040
I don't mind the follow-up questions.

850
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,040
They might make me feel uncomfortable, but I don't mind them.

851
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:48,040
Like, I do want to be working towards not being that emotionally avoidant, maybe.

852
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,040
And like you said, I do like sharing.

853
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,040
I just don't like sharing emotions.

854
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,040
When I come back home, I do want to debrief about what my day was like.

855
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,040
I do like to talk about what's happened in my day.

856
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,040
I just don't want to feel the uncomfortable emotions.

857
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,040
So I don't mind sharing.

858
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:07,040
Okay, so moving forward, how do you think you can improve on that?

859
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,040
As you said, you want to.

860
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,040
Do I need to have all the solutions?

861
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,040
No, definitely not.

862
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,040
Yeah, of course not.

863
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:26,040
I think it's just sitting with my emotions, like maybe like setting aside time to being a little bit more intentional with my emotional vulnerability and having motivation to do that.

864
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:31,040
Because you get really comfortable being emotionally avoidant, so you don't feel the need for it.

865
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:36,040
But challenging yourself and finding the motivation for it would be step one.

866
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,040
Yeah, do you guys have any suggestions or how would you do it?

867
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,040
I think I absolutely agree to being more mindful about your emotions.

868
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,040
I think some people think mindfulness is like feel good, you're happy.

869
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:52,040
But sometimes you being more mindful can be a bit more uncomfortable afterwards.

870
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,040
It's not always the quote unquote good experience.

871
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:03,040
So definitely being mindful, practicing mindfulness on your emotions and not to escape or avoid them is very helpful.

872
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:04,040
First step.

873
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,040
Do you have any suggestions?

874
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,040
Actually, I am working towards that.

875
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,040
I'm just putting it out there.

876
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,040
I'm so aware that I'm emotionally avoidant.

877
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,040
That's why I'm working on it.

878
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,040
I definitely do set aside time to actually just feel the emotions.

879
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:22,040
And actually, you might notice like I just stay in my room.

880
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,040
I would say past two, three months, I would be just in my room lights off.

881
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,040
Yeah, yeah.

882
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,040
And they're just outside talking.

883
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,040
But I would stay in my room.

884
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,040
Sometimes it would be times where I'm actually just feeling my own emotions.

885
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,040
And it's scary to say the least.

886
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,040
Wow.

887
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,040
And it's not always a positive outcome.

888
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,040
I want to put it out there.

889
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:49,040
And it does lead to more things that you have to reflect on to be more aware of.

890
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:59,040
But it's a very good first step to set aside some time to be more intentional, to put it on one of your higher priorities on your list.

891
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:04,040
Because it's very important and not having those volcanoes just burst.

892
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:05,040
Yeah.

893
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:12,040
For people that are feeling really lost or don't know where to start, I think starting therapy is a really good way to go.

894
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:13,040
I agree with that.

895
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,040
And actually, that's one of the steps I took.

896
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,040
I started therapy.

897
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,040
Yay.

898
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:19,040
Yay.

899
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,040
Kudos to you.

900
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,040
It's an amazing first step, honestly.

901
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:23,040
It takes so much courage.

902
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:29,040
And I recognize the clients who choose to go to the first session is very powerful.

903
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,040
It's very courageous.

904
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,040
Absolutely.

905
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,040
I think I've tried on my end as well.

906
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:46,040
Going to therapy, actually booking it online and then wanting to cancel it, rescheduling it to actually going it on the day and thinking, oh, can we change the telehealth?

907
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:51,040
I feel it's because I feel like it's less common thing to go in person.

908
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,040
And it takes a lot of steps to start.

909
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,040
And just putting here out there is scary and that's normal.

910
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,040
But it's very beneficial long term.

911
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,040
And remember, personal growth is like a journey.

912
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,040
It takes time and it's not like one therapy session and it will fix everything.

913
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,040
Stick with it.

914
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,040
I know it's uncomfortable right now, but you'll get there.

915
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:17,040
So yeah, thank you so much for our guests joining us today.

916
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,040
It's such a lovely chat.

917
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,040
And I love we should have more guests.

918
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,040
Thanks for having me, guys.

919
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,040
And yeah, you should have more guests.

920
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,040
I'm getting tired of hearing you guys.

921
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:35,040
No, honestly, I'm tired of listening to us and editing other people's voices is nice.

922
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,040
So honestly, you should come again for another episode.

923
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,040
Maybe we can talk about something else that's as uncomfortable as today's topic.

924
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,040
Look at you making progress.

925
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,040
Right?

926
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,040
And this is the end of our episode today.

927
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:57,040
We talk a bit about emotional avoidance in different kinds of relationships.

928
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,040
And if you want to know more about us, you can go to our Instagram.

929
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,040
Our Instagram handle is the why in your 20s.podcast.

930
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,040
We share different information or extra information on top of the current episode.

931
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,040
Yeah, definitely check it out.

932
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,040
And until next time, stay vulnerable.

933
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,040
Maybe give therapy a shot.

934
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,040
And we'll see you next week.

935
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:47,040
Bye.