You're listening to the Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.
Welcome back to another episode of the Piano Pod.
I am Clara Zhang.
I'm Yukimi Song.
And I am Eric Hunter.
Happy April and a happy Jazz Appreciation Month, fondly known as GEM, everyone.
And do you know GEM was created by John Edward Hasse, curator of the Smithsonian's National
Museum of American History in 2001 to recognize and celebrate the extraordinary heritage and
history of jazz for the entire month of April.
GEM is intended to stimulate and encourage people of all ages to learn and listen to
jazz music.
And today we are so excited to be interviewing world-class jazz pianist, composer, recording
artist, educator, and my dear friend, Jim Riddle, to celebrate GEM.
Welcome, Jim.
Thank you so much.
My pleasure.
My pleasure to be here.
Thank you so much for being on the show, Jim.
This is a long time coming.
We have been friends for so many years, and I'm so glad that we have this opportunity
to do this interview professionally.
And I just want to introduce a little bit of GEM before we officially start.
GEM is a busy performing artist based in New York City, performing in major venues such
as Blue Note in New York City, Japan, Italy, Jazz Standard, Birdland, and Carnegie Hall.
He regularly performs in festivals in America, Europe, Japan, and South America, and has
toured all around the world.
All right.
So I know you have accomplished so, so much in your career, Jim, but now we get into all
these questions.
We are so desperate that we want to ask.
So I teach a lot of little kids, and I would like to know, in the very, very beginning,
I'm curious, when did you decide to become a jazz musician?
Was that the instinct in the childhood, or you just woke up one day, it's like, I'm going
to be a jazz guy.
What is it like?
Yeah, it's a very good question.
When I was, I don't know, like eight or 10 or something in that age period, I think it
was through a few recordings that my father had, my brother had.
Oh wow.
But not very much.
I mean, I was listening to pop radio and things that my older siblings were listening to,
pop and rock.
And there was a few jazz recordings.
I think André Previn, the great conductor pianist, but he was also a fantastic jazz
pianist, had a recording by him.
Anyway, I was interested in music, and I was playing by ear, no real study.
So you have perfect pitch.
I see.
No, no, I wish I did.
But just, you know, kind of when you imitate and you copy something that you hear.
So I was interested in music from when I was a little kid, and I was inspired by my oldest
brother who composed a piece for his concert band in high school.
And so I was mesmerized by what he did.
And then, so I continued just playing and I did take some lessons from Sister Rebecca
at the parochial school, and I quit after a couple of years.
My father wasn't very happy, but I kept playing.
So anyway, it leads to I became more and more interested in jazz as an early teenager.
And then it's amazing what teachers do, because I grew up in Dickinson, North Dakota, a very
small rural town.
And my father had heard this pianist play with a guitar player at this local restaurant
bar, and he really loved what they played.
And so he asked, his name is Keith Drakware, and he asked Keith, he said, Hey, my son is,
you know, interested in jazz, would you be willing to teach him?
And he and he said, Well, sure.
And so he set up a lesson.
And I was 15 years old.
So when I first first heard him play, I go, that's how I want to play.
That's what I want to do.
It was it was an immediate moment in that way.
I mean, there was music before that.
And then that changed my life.
And I studied with him and he turned me on to, you know, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea,
Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Miles Davis, etc.
Stride players, ragtime, country music.
And so it started me from there.
That was my path all these years later.
It'll be my whole life.
Right.
Yeah, so the influence of this teacher, Keith, and we're still in contact is that he's a
fantastic musician and he just retired.
He taught like high school band and stuff for concert band, etc. for many, many years.
But it's great.
We're still in contact.
That is just so amazing, you know, especially for younger students.
I think that, you know, their child or childhood teachers really sometimes mean so much, you
know, it's, yeah, it cuts us into a place that we, you know, we just have that imagination.
And also when you mentioned you were studying at a sister, what do you mean, sister?
It was a Catholic grade school.
So that's really cool.
Even the Catholic nun, they are teaching jazz?
Is that?
Well, no, this wasn't jazz.
I mean, I see.
Yeah, no, it was no jazz.
It was just fundamental piano.
I got it.
You know, so yeah, and well, they're still cool.
We're teaching piano.
Yes, of course.
Yeah.
Wow, that is so beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
I had no idea.
I didn't know, you know, but I know we all start somewhere.
And so we have so many questions, but I just have.
Can I ask a question?
Sure.
Go ahead.
Thanks, because the story of how you started out seems to be kind of familiar.
I feel like a lot of jazz pianists start in the same way where they get kind of traditional
piano lessons from a teacher and then they might lose interest a little bit and go off
on their own for a while because for whatever reasons, I don't want to put words in your
mouth or anything.
But I feel like oftentimes it's because they are not allowed to express themselves creatively
or they haven't found the sound that they're looking for.
And then 15, you know, you're already a teenager and that was kind of like your aha moment.
And I'm just wondering, is there anything easier?
It seems like you had to kind of wander for a while.
Actually, this was the case with Mike Grande also, who was on our show, and he's a rock
musician, but it took him until he was about that age to find somebody that really clicked
with him.
Can we teach younger kids jazz from an earlier age?
Or is it just by definition going to be this kind of wandering path before you get into
it?
Well, it's a good question.
I think it's very different now than when I was 15, which is many, many years ago, because
these days you have the accessibility to the music.
It's worldwide.
I mean, it was accessible to me in 1974, something like that.
I mean, it's so music gets everywhere all over the world, but the accessibility now
through the internet in particular, and, you know, YouTube and then all the literature,
there's a million books about jazz theory, about jazz instruction, about how to play,
who to listen to.
There's just a wealth of things.
So for, and I've heard this, you know, like on YouTube, when you hear like the little prodigies
of playing not only classical music and bluegrass and things like this, but there's like amazingly
talented, you know, even 10 year olds that are playing very sophisticated stuff.
Obviously, they have a very tuned in ear, I think quite immediately.
Of course, yes, you can get into, I think, the mechanics of the music much earlier, but
still it's about the listening, you know, because the recordings, especially in jazz
music, the recordings teach us the music both, you know, directly, but kind of in the air
because you're listening.
And because for me, I'll elaborate on this a little bit.
One of my early heroes was Oscar Peterson, who you've probably heard of because he's
one of the great jazz pianists of the 20th century into the 21st century.
And I wore this one record out.
And so I was very influenced by him.
It's still in my playing, but that was through that recording.
And so, you know, 15, it clicked for me, but certainly, yeah, I didn't know until then
what I was going to do.
But music was with me since I was five.
I know that for a fact.
So it kind of took me further.
Excuse me.
So yeah.
Yeah.
So would you say that in a way jazz education starts with listening then?
Because I think one important distinction to make between jazz and classical is in jazz,
the reference is the recording.
It's the album, right?
With classical music, you know, for Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, composers like that, they
didn't have recording technology, obviously.
So our reference is the score.
Yeah.
But I would ask you guys.
So as you were coming up and learning, like who like say, Mozart piano concerto, and you
go, well, who's your favorite player?
Right plays it.
Who's your favorite recording?
You probably all have that relationship to them.
Or I'm asking that that's makes sense.
Right?
Right.
Of course.
Yeah, definitely.
Because then for me, you know, the the sound of Oscar Peterson got my playing, Herbie
Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, all those things that are very important influences
to shape.
Well, first of all, to gain a vocabulary of ideas and use literally steal them if they
were on the score.
We're all essentially doing the same thing.
We're taking the music and then we try and personalize it in our own way.
So you know, all those players are in are in me.
But then also Vladimir Horowitz, my hero, you know, the Rubenstein, Claudio Rao.
I mean, just just Martha, Martha, Agri, Grich, Agri, etc.
I mean, anybody who plays great, right.
And is soulful.
I go, I'm in, you know, so.
Throughout the history of jazz, you know, it went through so many different styles.
How did you how do you define jazz?
Or what does jazz mean to you?
You know, I would like to know.
Yeah, it's not I guess it's not quite a simple answer.
But it's a while being the age that I am, it's it's a way of living.
I mean, just do 20 years old.
You and Gabby always look so young, you know, times three.
Right.
OK.
But it's you know, it's a it's a way of living.
Just I'm only saying that because I've been in it for so long.
But it's it's one of the freest forms of music to express yourself.
And and I've been always attracted by the feel of the music, you know, how how the music
moves, but also how it makes me move inside of myself.
And at times, even physically, it's just I love the groove of the music and the feel
of the music.
I mean, it's and of course, that's not only relegated to jazz, but it's it's that.
And then the the the sense of improvisation that it is an improvisation based music.
Yet it there's a lot of structure to it that is important to convey, you know, as a teacher,
but also to people who are listening, who want to get into the music, who are either
musicians or non musicians about how it's built.
Yes, of course, it's very, very complex, but the structures are very, very simple.
Very, very simple.
And so that anyway, there's a lot of room and you can be a misfit.
Maybe you don't fit in in certain ways, I think, because the music it's over a hundred
years old.
Right.
And it's encompasses so many styles of music from all over the world.
Yes, yes.
You know, and it and it continues.
So that's what I think is very, very beautiful about the art form and more and more, you
know, classical.
I like this aspect of how things are evolving, that classical and jazz musicians are really
starting to become much right.
Yeah.
Integrated.
Yes, there is like there's a terrific pianist named Dan Tepper, who's a fantastic jazz pianist,
but an incredible improviser with Bach.
You know, I don't do those things, but I can take something and build something.
But you know, great.
Brad Meldow, fantastic, you know, certainly classical player.
Keith Jarrett, you know, a great classical musician as well, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock.
They all had their roots, but they continued them over the course of their careers.
So anyway, it's so so it's.
I mean, it's a it's a very good place for me to exist in, quote unquote, jazz, but it
covers so much it's you know, that that it's it's hard to define just one particular way.
But thank you.
Yes, that's beautiful.
So I have several questions.
So I saw your video clip of several videos actually on YouTube.
And then one in particular I really loved was Blues is Free.
It says in the description, it says 12 bars with no set melody.
So were you basically improvising?
Yes.
Oh, wow.
Yes.
But so the first 12 bar is kind of the theme.
Is that what it is?
Well, the the the thing about the blues is that in the tradition of it, it's 12 measures
long and it that's the form.
Like it's then you start over.
I didn't know.
No, you keep cycling that particular chord progression and it's built on one, four or
five, you know, the tonic dominant subdominant, you know, and that's the classic.
That's the classic form.
I can play it for you if you want.
Yes, that would be great.
One, two, three, four.
That's the top.
So I didn't play any melody.
But that was just a copying rhythm.
Right.
And so one, four, one, five, four, one.
That's the traditional the traditional blues.
And then with the more of the jazz influence would be this.
There's still 12 bars.
And it's in the key of C.
So.
All right.
I feel like.
I'm back in the bar again in the jazz club.
Yeah, I wish I was too.
We all have to wait.
But it's you still hear the the, you know, the landing places of going to the four
chord, the five chord, but there's passing chords that are leading in from C that
lead up to F seven that lead back to C.
And then there's these passing chords, you know, but that's the jazz influence of,
you know, harmonies coming in.
But the important thing is it's still 12 measures long.
That never ever varies.
No, I can't.
So like, if you think of you're looking at a clock and it goes 12, one, two, three,
four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, one, two.
It's always this cycle and you have to count and you can't lose your place.
But that's, that's all it is.
I mean, it's a it's a particular number of measures.
It's well, of course, it's more than that.
But the math part of it is 12 bars.
There's a few other different forms where there's an eight bar blues and things like
that. But this is the traditional, you know, sound.
The first one I played in particular, but yeah.
Right. I mean, so I totally enjoy the blues is free.
So for those who are listening or watching, I'll make sure to put this YouTube link in
a description so you can watch it as well.
But so can I talk a little more about it?
Just just on that particular performance.
Yes, there was no melody here.
I didn't play any melody either.
You know, I was just playing the chords.
But so in that sense, it's very, very open in that I can create a melody.
And and then come back to that later.
But it's it's a form.
It's a form for expression, I guess, maybe in the sense of like a like a classical
music, like maybe a canon or something like that, where it's this recurring or a
passacaglia, where it's this recurring bass movement that.
Just keep cycling like Pachelbel's canon.
You know, it's very improvisatory in a way after the initial theme.
So it would be like this.
It's it just is it.
So in that sense with jazz, it's very rigid, you know, and there's no stretching of the
time. It's very constant where you're in the middle of the song.
It's constant where I one of the things I love about classical music is when you look
at a score, a symphonic score, you go, OK, well, it's in four, four, for instance.
But then you you follow the score with the interpretation of the music and it's got
these nice stretches and little pauses and jazz music in this sense does not do that.
It's always about the groove, keeping good time, good tempo, not slowing down, not
rushing. So it interesting.
We learn from each other.
I would say. But I just wanted to say thank you so much for that wonderful demonstration
because that really just cleared up so much for me.
You know, I know when people start learning jazz, like taking jazz lessons, always start
with the 12 bar blues. Right. And and I always wondered, well, how do you get, though,
from 12 bar blues to jazz, which you just showed us?
That's amazing. You know, like because the blues is clearly the blues and then jazz,
it's a different language. But you can hear the overlap like the structure is the same,
that, you know, same 12 bars, same root chords.
Right. But then once you have the jazz version, of course, now we have extended harmonies,
right. Nice 11th, 13th.
Right. You're doing more kind of stuff jumping around the register.
Right. Like kind of up and down.
Whereas the first version was much more steady in the same place, more rhythmic complexity.
And you just right there in like two minutes, you showed us the evolution of one style
into the other and how they're connected.
It's just really wonderful.
Thank you. Yeah.
Oh, you're welcome. And I I also want to emphasize that, you know, the blues is
is the four it was happening before jazz.
But that's jazz grew out of the blues. Exactly.
And of course, influenced by, you know, European harmonies and and things like that,
that that extended, you know, the art form.
But I want to say a couple of the things about improvising now.
So with the blues, there's the blues scale and there's two ways of approaching improvisation.
So you can do like a horizontal improvisation, meaning like with the blues scale, it's six notes.
I can take that scale and I can play that those six notes in whatever way I want
over the 12 bars. Right.
Over C7, F7, G7.
Now, in the vertical sense, I can look at each chord individually and go, here's the C7.
I can play multiple things that address only that chord.
Then when it goes to F7, I'm going to do the same thing.
I'll go qualities of F7, qualities of G7.
Mm hmm. So I'll play it for you.
Yeah, I was going to say, could you demonstrate a little bit?
So the blue notes are.
Mm hmm.
Okay, so now now I'll play addressing each chord.
Mm hmm.
Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Okay, so I see. So in the first version, basically, you're only using the notes of the blue,
the blues scale. Am I correct? That's correct.
Right. And then the second version is much more chromatic and you basically have access
to any scale that fits the chord. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, all 12 notes are
available, but that's that's putting the cart a little bit too far down the road
before the horse. But the thing is, what's important to remember with improvisation
when you're addressing the chords, if I only address the third of the chord, the major third
of C, F and G, then immediately you're getting a sense of what the harmony is. Is it major or minor?
Right. So, you know.
And even if I don't use a bass note, there's no bass note, but it was a describing of the harmony.
So that's that in that sense. And of course, blues players like BB King, of course, they would
go in and out of this. But in jazz, it's all of a sudden we can utilize the modes, the mixolydian
mode, the diminished scale, the altered diminished scale, et cetera, et cetera. You know, a lot of
more things are available. But the beauty of, you know, the blues, it's like your your the blue
scales, like you're floating over the top. You know, you kind of can't make a mistake with those six
notes. Right. It's great. But more sophisticated, not to sound that can sound a little bit derogatory.
No, it's just more expression, a larger vocabulary of expression. So. Right. Okay, that clears some
stuff up. Thank you. Yeah. So I feel like in classical music, you kind of have the black and
white of major and minor up until about, I don't know, Debussy or something. Right. And it's very
clearly major or minor. Yes, there's like, you know, modal mixture. But those are really the
two anchoring forces until we get to 20th century music. And then and then in blues, I think like
one of the defining characteristics is you have both kind of at the same time. Right. And
what you were doing just now, I was like, Oh, yeah, it's interesting when you really anchor
that major third, then it immediately sounds less bluesy to me. And I think your instincts as a jazz
and blues player, like, like you kept sneaking that minor third in there as well. Right. Yeah,
yeah. True. True. And then and then when you get to more what we think of as jazz, right, then
all these different scales come in. And like you said, greater vocabulary, much wider color,
palette. So there's less of this kind of duality of major and minor, right? Yeah, it well it becomes
it's all true, but it becomes a mix and it becomes actually quite personal to the player.
You know, like, like with Oscar Peterson, like virtuoso, unbelievable technique, but very blues
oriented, a lot of that minor third, flat five, flat seven. I mean, he he always had that in the
mix quite often. But you'll hear an element of the blues in practically any jazz musician play. But
but then somebody like Keith Jarrett, who's got a great sense of the blues and gospel, but
he'll go like it all of a sudden is a very, very different language and utilizing
much more than Oscar did, you know, but it's still it's, you know, it's still very, very personal,
but they're still playing on the same chord changes, the same form, you know, but then again,
then on top of that is the touch of the individual pianist and, and how they assemble their chords,
how they move them. I mean, it's, but it, it's, it's true. I mean, it's just that and in classical
music, such a wealth of amazing harmonic things. Yes, but especially when it when it started to get
in to the 20th century, well, late 19th century, but especially 20th century WC and then of course,
Stravinsky and Schoenberg and 12 tone and all kinds of things. I mean, everything is open now,
I mean, has been for a long time. And so, and playing outside of the key, for instance,
right. So, and one thing I learned from Dave Liebman, the great saxophonist who
played with Miles Davis and Elvin Jones, who played with John Coltrane,
and who played with the great musicians of that time. And he was a great musician. He was a great
composer. And he was a great musician. And his very serious lineage in history was that his,
he had just a great concept about, you know, like cadences, you know, tension and release, and where
Oh, I'm off again, you know, you can go and of course, classical music, we learned that from
classical music of the tension, and then coming back home, and then going away again. Right. If
it's only always away, well, that's much more avant garde, which I love too. But the best avant
garde players, my mind, are the ones who have a sense of cadence and resolution. Otherwise,
it's just kind of like, well, I'm not getting some I'm not getting enough from it. I like some sense
of form. But yeah, it's got to be anchored in something, right? Yes. Yes. And I think that's
plus I think it's very much more musically riveting for the listener to go, oh, and it's like, wow,
how did they get back there? Oh, wow, where'd they go? Oh, they're back again, you know,
dramatic, makes it more dramatic. So, right.
This concludes part one of our interview with Jim Riddle.
Tune in next time for more of Jim's insights and amazing improv demonstrations.
Thank you.